Post/Author/DateTime	Post
comicbrad 12-09-07, 01:50 PM	A friend has played goliath characters in the past two campaigns in which he was a PC (one run by me). To me the goliaths seem unbalanced. +4 St, +2 Con, can use weapons one size larger without penalty, and I think counts as large for grapple purposes with only a +1 level adjustment. +6 total stats and larger weapons with no off-setting penalties (I don't think there were any penalties but haven't looked at Races of Stone in months)? Has anyone used house rules for these guys? Make them large, +2 LA, drop the weapon size, add a dexterity penalty? Thanks.
The_Wild_King 12-09-07, 01:58 PM	Goliaths are considered one of the best races for a +1 LA, and if its really bothering you, bump it up to +2
Suspect_Unusual 12-09-07, 02:12 PM	A friend has played goliath characters in the past two campaigns in which he was a PC (one run by me). To me the goliaths seem unbalanced. +4 St, +2 Con, can use weapons one size larger without penalty, and I think counts as large for grapple purposes with only a +1 level adjustment. +6 total stats and larger weapons with no off-setting penalties (I don't think there were any penalties but haven't looked at Races of Stone in months)? Has anyone used house rules for these guys? Make them large, +2 LA, drop the weapon size, add a dexterity penalty? Thanks. They have a dexterity penalty. They're nice if you want to hit **** really hard, but the loss of a class level can put them back a step or two from some really, really nice abilities one can get if you know how to work a class progression.
CrimsonDeath 12-09-07, 02:13 PM	They do have a Dexterity penalty. -2, to be precise.
Arkeas 12-10-07, 01:46 AM	It's also slightly balanced by the fact that they can't be enlarged by "enlarge person."
lord_xarallon 12-10-07, 08:16 AM	It's also slightly balanced by the fact that they can't be enlarged by "enlarge person." But they more or less have it permanently... Most of their bonuses are beneficial to a melee and they have enough of those to make up for the one "level loss". Yes, they are very strong for a +1 level adjustment race, mostly due to the fact that the bonuses are working very well together.
The_Shaman 12-10-07, 09:32 AM	I think they are among the few races that deserve their LA. Their strength covers up their BAB, the con compensates for a lower (initial) number of HP, and, well, other abilities compensate for the saves and class features - somewhat. Unlike, say, tieflings or genasi they can be a match for a character of the same class and ECL from the PHB races even without LA buyoff. That's what LA was supposed to be doing, so it's not an example of overpoweredness.
Finfreeze 12-10-07, 10:29 AM	It's also slightly balanced by the fact that they can't be enlarged by "enlarge person." On the other hand, they can still use Expansion to reach huge size.
Orenmir 12-10-07, 10:37 AM	Let's try to (quickly) break it down... +2 Con = -2 Dex -- For LA purposes, these balance each other out. Monstrous Humanoid -- There are aspects of this type that balances itself out; such as: can't be enlarged with Enlarge Person, but also can't be affected by Dominate or Charm. Mountain Movement, Acclimated, and +2 Sense Motive -- Hardly worth mentioning for LA calculation. That really only leaves: +4 Strength and Powerful Build = LA +1 Yeah, I'd say that's balanced. Maybe slightly on the powerful side of LA +1. He's on par with his Psionic counterpart, Half-Giant -- at low levels (at high levels, Half-Giant has some useless attributes due to the lack of scaling).
AtsuiShoto 12-10-07, 08:58 PM	I wouldn't discount Mountain Movement, given that Leap Attack is a very good idea for a race with +4 Str and -1 BAB (net gain of +1 Atk) as well as a a racial substitution level that can get them +6 Str while raging. Being able to make the leap for Leap Attack without a running start means it's that much closer to being as easy and as frequent as a normal charge. Like lord_xarallon said: "Yes, they are very strong for a +1 level adjustment race, mostly due to the fact that the bonuses are working very well together." I couldn't agree more.
Dragonprime 12-10-07, 09:35 PM	I'd say that they honestly deserve their +1 LA. Unlike some other +1 LA races, these guys can actually stay on par with the characters that have zero LA.
AtsuiShoto 12-10-07, 09:45 PM	Dragonprime, if you feel that level-adjusted races are almost universally sub-par, do you believe the best solution is to modify the level adjustment system, or begin creating races that are worth it... one at a time... many, many times? I agree with you that level adjustments are generally just not worth it, but I like that the general trend is well adhered to (barring fringe cases like Goliaths), because then I can improve upon the system to have a similar impact to EVERY race all at the same time.
larry_the_titan 12-10-07, 10:18 PM	Well lets see a Goliath Fighter 1 has just as much of a chance to hit a creature as a Half-Orc Fighter 2 and the Goliath would do more damage but would have a lower AC the same fort save lower reflex save same Will save, fewer hitpoints and the same amount of skill points. At higher levels these to would progress completely differently so I cant say past this point but at this point it seems a fairly equal. I mean maybe it would better if I compared it to say another Race like say Wood Elves instead of comparing them to something that is considered weak as a LA 0 but that can wait for later. It seems rather fair trade at this point to me. Why would you say its over powered.
Ace_of_time 12-10-07, 10:28 PM	If you are going to use one might as well go for damage as well and go Duskblade/ dragon shaman.