Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JulesCARV 04-29-07, 02:14 AM	My take: about 70% of dwarf women don't have significant facial hair at all (varies: some dwarf lineages don't have any women with facial hair, some have all dwarf women having facial hair). Among the 30% who do, they're a bit like human men: some keep it, some shave it. That way, most don't have facial hair, but if you really want to be a dwarf gal with a long beard, you can be.
AMGriffin 04-29-07, 02:24 AM	Dwarven females for all intents and purposes are without facial hair as of 3.5 E I think, the pictures of female dwarves always depict them as without beards.
Borris 04-29-07, 03:19 AM	Many of them have Elvis-sized sideburns, though.
allenchan 04-29-07, 03:21 AM	In my games? None, zip, zero, nadda.
Mr_Teapot 04-29-07, 09:24 AM	I resolve the dilemma the same way folklore and legend do: there's no such thing as a dwarf woman.
Luis_Dragunov 04-29-07, 09:33 AM	I like them best without beard so I make them without one.
Naderion 04-29-07, 09:39 AM	In my world, there are 50% female dwarves who have 100% beard growth, but it's common style to shave, unlike male dwarves, whou would rather have something else choped of then their beards. :D
Kamin_Majere 04-29-07, 02:04 PM	I resolve the dilemma the same way folklore and legend do: there's no such thing as a dwarf woman. In my 20 years of playing i have come to the same conclusion... whats a female dwarf. I have just determined they are hatched from rocks:)
Wharin 04-29-07, 03:01 PM	I dunno... i am pretty ambivilant on the issue. Depending on the system/setting/DM preference I played games that tackle the subject on all angles. One would think that if soceity encourages beard growth among their women, that over time, women would eventually have beards just as much as the men do. I dunno... I guess, if i had to choose, I'd probably go for the super big side burns as well. That way there is at least the allusion to the facial hair, without actually having a beard.
Metafictional 04-29-07, 03:24 PM	Do a google image search for Lineage Female Dwarf. That's what I think female Dwarves SHOULD look like!
Krusk 04-29-07, 03:50 PM	Personally, I like to suggest to players that female dwarfs have beards. But it isn't something they have to do. A good percentage of female dwarf npcs have beards though.
Can of the Cave Beer 04-29-07, 04:07 PM	I'd give it a nice 50/50 split with beards ranging from borderline masculine (but still lighter and with a better texture) to the shaves once a month, whether she needs to or not. I would also probably wager that any campaign of mine would have more women than men keeping their beards properly trimmed and combed. Females with longer beards would be more likely than men to enhance it with ornamentation or braiding/pleating. PCs should always have the option of being bearded or not.
Optimator 04-29-07, 11:24 PM	In the World I play in, they don't. I really like the way WoW did their female dwarves.
Erato 04-29-07, 11:54 PM	Do a google image search for Lineage Female Dwarf. That's what I think female Dwarves SHOULD look like! :pbbbtt:
Nathreet 04-30-07, 01:32 AM	I resolve the dilemma the same way folklore and legend do: there's no such thing as a dwarf woman. In my 20 years of playing i have come to the same conclusion... whats a female dwarf. I have just determined they are hatched from rocks:) There is an old Greek myth along these lines. The first Greeks (or maybe the king only?) came from the ground and reproduced w/o females. The 1st king was snake from the waist down (the snake was associated with the earth). Do a google image search for Lineage Female Dwarf. That's what I think female Dwarves SHOULD look like! I'd agree, though not all have to be that... (what's the word) skimpy, either. Saying that a dwarf female must be fat (or even "stout") and ugly is what makes them so un-appealing for PCs and even DM created NPCs. Sure, there should be plenty of dwarven females that look close to males. But only as many as any other race would have.
Perun 04-30-07, 02:14 AM	IMC, all dwarves have beards. Even dwarf children have facial growth and body hair. It's just the way the dwarves are. FWIW, until a couple of years ago we had three female players in our group (they either moved away or got married and had kids, which meant a lot less free time for gaming), all three have played more than one (female) dwarf character, and all had beards. So, in my experience, women don't have problem with bearded dwarf women :) Demihuman Deities, an AD&D Forgotten Realms accessory had pictures of clerics of various deities, and they included a few bearded female dwarves (you can see them here (http://www.ultimosdiasdegloria.bluehosting.com. br/FR/Galeria_fr/clerigos/clerigosfigGD/DemihumanClerics02.jpg) and here (http://www.ultimosdiasdegloria.bluehosting.com. br/FR/Galeria_fr/clerigos/clerigosfigGD/DemihumanClerics03.jpg)). The only racial feature that ever bothered me were elven hands in AD&D 2e FR...
Return of the Flumph 04-30-07, 02:32 AM	Dwarves have very little sexual dimorphism. I don't see any problem with that; its one of the things that makes them distinctive.
Erato 04-30-07, 11:20 AM	Saying that a dwarf female must be fat (or even "stout") and ugly is what makes them so un-appealing for PCs and even DM created NPCs. Sure, there should be plenty of dwarven females that look close to males. But only as many as any other race would have. Sorry, no. Dwarves are masculine and ugly. Female dwarves are still dwarves. Ugly obese guys together with anorectic supermodels belong in American sitcoms, soaps, and ‘romantic’ comedies (and for men is rich enough to hire their own private prostitute (and calling her his wife or girlfriend)). If males aren’t hot, there’s absolutely no reason why females should be. Do a google image search for Lineage Female Dwarf. That's what I think female Dwarves SHOULD look like! This is exactly why I’m tempted demand that males in my gaming group participate in mandatory wanking sessions before a game :rolleyes:
sigma999 05-01-07, 07:33 PM	Sorry, no. Dwarves are masculine and ugly. Female dwarves are still dwarves. Ugly obese guys together with anorectic supermodels belong in American sitcoms, soaps, and ‘romantic’ comedies (and for men is rich enough to hire their own private prostitute (and calling her his wife or girlfriend)). If males aren’t hot, there’s absolutely no reason why females should be. This is exactly why I’m tempted demand that males in my gaming group participate in mandatory wanking sessions before a game :rolleyes: WIth a bunch of hotheaded basement geeks amped on Jolt, Dew, and cigarettes this seems like a good idea. Cuts on the wasted time from obnoxious "Is it a brothel?!? WOOHOOOO! I pay for a night with the blonde halfling chick!!!" scenarios. Sometimes I wonder if my old group from highschool stopped inviting me since I missed a few too many games, choosing instead to spend time with *gasp* real girlz... However, although girls come and go often in later groups I've been in, it has not been from sexual imbalance or discrimination. Rather, they stick it out until the whole group falls apart after a few weeks to months, sadly. I blame the local demographics here and near-overwhelming anti-nerd population. Most popular races girls have chosen in campaigns I have also been in: Elf Half-Elf Half-Vampire Halfling Half-orc (with a damn high Charisma.... Paladin, yo.. the player is a goofball :w00t:) "Catgirl" .. that Catfolk race, modified to be more like one of those... anime... cat.. girls... More Elf Hot Elf Sexy Elf Badass Elf See a pattern? OK yeah I'm guilty of playing too many elf-and-elflike characters too, but the diverse number of female elf-players did prove that girls do indeed on average prefer slender, delicate, stereotypically intelligent, 'beautiful' humanoids rather than their perceived stereotype of a female dwarf, bearded or not. I have yet to even see a girl play as female dwarf. Ever. Well, other than a female DM with NPC, and that doesn't count.. I mean PC with a single character they are well attached to. My opinion on female dwarfs is that they are normally beardless but far from hairless, barring the occasional high-testosterone chromosomal variants, and not exactly ugly. I've met various European women over the years that, although 'stocky' and 'stout' and maybe a slight inclination towards chunky, were definately not 'fat' nor 'ugly'. Although I won't say aloud, except to my brother or whoever else I'm with out of earshot, I compare their body type as "now THAT'S a female fantasy dwarf!!!" By American standards they might be ugly but try to get a broader perspective; they are more feminine than your average fashion model could ever hope to be. Voluptuous, healthy, sturdy, and stacked, with perfect waist-hip ratio (for their weight). The paleolithic (and albeit repressed, subconsciously human) ideal or femininity. And who says dwarfs have low birthrate? Won't that high Constitution mean something? Hell, dwarfs could breed like rabbits. Maybe it's certain dwarf cultures that place strict regulations on marriage and mating for that reason. In times of plenty, overburdened and successful underground dwarf populations would then push the extra males outward in gigantic war campaigns to slaughter and dominate lesser goblinoid races (the only other humanoid races that breed faster) and make way for the more cautious, intelligent, spellcasting, domestic female dwarfs. This would explain the traditional fantasy scene of a "dwarf army" standing stout on a hillside, screaming blasphemies at their foes, waving axes and hammers. They are amped for conquest like young ants in a resource-hot area. And if they fail, they must become "adventurers", a greater shame than any, for it means isolation from dwarfen communities, culture, history, and homelands. And far, far away from the busty, stout dwarfen women of the mountains. Put that in your campaign and smoke it.
ewancummins 05-02-07, 12:08 AM	I have always assumed the had beards, just like the boys. Maybe they trim or shave them, maybe not. The one female dwarf played by a female player in any of my games wore a beard.
Old Sparky 05-02-07, 01:11 AM	Human women, real actual human women, CAN be found with facial hair. Its no stretch to assume that dwarven women can have beards. Now, add in the fact that dwarven women have traditionally been portrayed as having beards all the way up to 3e, and it leaves me wondering what the hell they were thinking when they made this cosmetic change?? It serves no purpose other than to say "everything you knew is wrong." I hate that.
fuzzycrusader 05-02-07, 01:48 AM	In the World I play in, they don't. I really like the way WoW did their female dwarves. with them being so ugly you wanted to slay them on sight?
allenchan 05-02-07, 02:20 AM	Human women, real actual human women, CAN be found with facial hair. Its no stretch to assume that dwarven women can have beards. Now, add in the fact that dwarven women have traditionally been portrayed as having beards all the way up to 3e, and it leaves me wondering what the hell they were thinking when they made this cosmetic change?? It serves no purpose other than to say "everything you knew is wrong." I hate that. It serves to increase general appeal to a wider group of consumers in a society that by and large shuns body hair, male or female, and ostracized that which is not the normative. Thought that was pretty self-evident. Its a fantasy game, after all. ...and about the WoW dwarves; yes. I'd rather have a hideous mutant ugly dwarf lady then one with a beard.
Conspiracist 05-02-07, 01:53 PM	The late Gary Jackson says they have beards. Good enough for me.:bow: :D Seriously, I prefer running nonhuman NPCs...as in tabaxi (no, not "catgirls"), lizardmen, and the like. My women have fur scales, slimy skin...beards would make them look "normal".
LoneStranger 05-02-07, 07:47 PM	No, they don't. Never should have, whoever came up with that was on something at the time.
Forgember 05-02-07, 09:24 PM	I've always prefered the Dragonlance setting, no beards though they do sometimes sport some soft downy cheek hair. As for Erato's comments on dwarves..... :hoppingma you need to read some books there pal. Dwarves are not and never have been fat and ugly, they get a Con bonus for a reason. If any race should be fat its elves that have a negative to Con, as in not healthy.
ewancummins 05-02-07, 09:36 PM	Elves are so wussy, even the males cannot grow beards! ;) Well, I seem to recall seeing a breaded elf in the old white box D&D set. Around the time of the switch to 1E AD&D , they must have lost their beards.:)
The Equalizer 05-02-07, 10:34 PM	I'm against the fact that people think that Dwarven Females HAVE to have a beard or some other type of facial. If you want to have a female with facial hair, any female, fine, whatever. I don't care if you make a freak with high testosterone levels. What ever floats your boat. The players in my group often get into discussions about this, though I tell them that it isn't something common for the female dwarves to have beards. It is just as common in my campaign for dwarve females to have a beard as it would for any other female. I though Tolkien was the first person that came up with the bearded dwarven women. Or was it the mythology in which he based his book?
AMGriffin 05-02-07, 10:37 PM	I've always prefered the Dragonlance setting, no beards though they do sometimes sport some soft downy cheek hair. As for Erato's comments on dwarves..... :hoppingma you need to read some books there pal. Dwarves are not and never have been fat and ugly, they get a Con bonus for a reason. If any race should be fat its elves that have a negative to Con, as in not healthy. He didn't say they were fat, he said they were masculine and ugly. That is true to an extent, dwarves may not be "ugly" (like orcs) but they still aren't exactly attractive.
Forgember 05-02-07, 10:53 PM	His exact words as used in his post are "Ugly obese guys.." as in not attractive very fat men. As I see it both are completly untrue in regards to dwarves.
jeffepp 05-03-07, 03:03 AM	Tolkien never mentioned female dwarves at all, and are the only "good" race without such. Many have taken this omission as a implication that either the females are indistinguishable from males, or that there are no females. In fact, there is a back-door mention of females. Thorin Oakenshield had two "sister-sons" in the party from The Hobbit. Also, the nature of the dwarven culture in the novels was one of secrecy. So, it is likely that any females were hidden away, and not to be spoken of out of the home caverns. As to DnD, there has never been any unified answer. I don't remember about Greyhawk, but Forgotten Realms females didn't have facial hair. And in Darksun, all the dwarfs (in DnD they are NOT dwarVes with a V) are beardless. If you want an interesting commentary on dwarf culture and females with facial hair, pick up a copy of Terry Pratchet's "Thud!" Of corse, that is not all the book comments on, but it's all good stuff.
Erato 05-03-07, 07:26 AM	As for Erato's comments on dwarves..... :hoppingma you need to read some books there pal. Dwarves are not and never have been fat and ugly, they get a Con bonus for a reason. If any race should be fat its elves that have a negative to Con, as in not healthy. I used the words: ‘masculine and ugly’ about dwarves. I probably should have used the words: ‘somewhat masculine and rarely in possession of the traditional kind of beauty’ :rolleyes: , but I was in a hurry. People not deliberately misinterpreting will get the point. The part about ugly obese guys refer to sitcoms and movies, and the idea that men are supposed to be chucky and diverse in the way they look, while women are only fit to appear in the media if they fit a very narrow (in several ways) ideal of beauty. Think long and hard. How many old, fat, or unattractive women appear in fiction (books, movies, games ect.)? How many attractive male monsters (like fiends) are featured in D&D books, compared to female? An extreme example of this line of thought, was a guy on these boards openly claiming that it was natural for men to have more body fat than women. Since doctors consider the ideal % of body fat in a woman to be almost twice that of a man, this attitude actually makes him a danger for his future children “No Susie, he’s not fat, you are! Here Dan, have another cookie”. This doesn’t bother me personally, but from a biological perspective it’s horrifying! The amount of overweight women increases rapidly, no small thanks to the women giving up, because they believe they’re already so fat that it doesn’t matter anyway (even if they’re only 5 lb away from not being overweight). Likewise, eating disorders are becoming more the norm than the exception in teenage girls (and many adults too). The starvation, throwing up, medication, and various experimental diets, can permanently damage the body, ironically often leading to obesity due to (looking for English word, please correct) slower metabolism, provided the victims don’t starve to death. And that’s not even mentioning how many of these diets deprive the body of important vitamins and minerals, and how being extremely underweight will weaken the immune system. The men don’t go unaffected either. In my country, the majority of overweight people are men, despite the fact that they’re traditionally more physically active, and that studies indicate that they’re less biologically inclined to crave sugar. Furthermore, the fat men are even less healthy than the fat women – or more correctly, fat ‘pear shaped’ people (most fat located on thighs and ass, typical for women) are generally healthier than fat ‘apple shaped’ people (most fat located on the belly, typical for men). These men flood the hospitals, with blood cloths, cholesterol related diseases, and various heart problems. My dad was in the hospital for a similar reason, and he was shocked to his core about the sheer amount of obese men yelling and screaming, denying that their lifestyle had anything to do with their illness, disrespecting, to the point of harassing, the nurses, and refusing to eat their vegetables like little boys. Mostly because they’d been raised to believe it was ‘masculine’ to be fat and eat whatever you wanted. It’s not WotC’s job to encourage these stereotypes. They’re already pushed by tradition, to portray the all-female species (dryads and nymphs) as stunningly beautiful. It has nothing to do with beards, but we don’t need a porn… sorry, lineage dwarf description like “contrary to the male dwarves, the females don’t have any body hair, they look more like elves, apart from having round ears, chubbier cheeks (but not fat, fat girls are ugly) and fuller lips, and being very curvy. Their weight is approximately 60% of the males’ (40% if you disregard the head and the boobs)”. If girls want to play pretty characters, they can do that. But WotC shouldn’t encourage it, by making all their females sexy. If male DMs aren’t comfortable portraying female NPCs they wouldn’t want to bang in real life, they don’t have to. But WotC should not make them believe that it was somehow more ‘authentic D&D’ to do so. And about + con making you skinny, and – con making you fat, it’s usually the other way around. BoVD contains 2 feats that change your weight. The obese feat gives + 2 con and – 2 dex, while the other gives + 2 dex and – 2 con. Remember, your endurance will be negatively affected by not having ‘reserves’ of energy to spend, and con also represents ability to withstand cold and take a punch.
ArcTan 05-03-07, 08:23 AM	And who says dwarfs have low birthrate? Won't that high Constitution mean something? It... doesn't mean anything to do with birthrate or reproduction, as far as I can tell. I mean, Goblins have a *really* high birthrate. Big deal.
ArcTan 05-03-07, 08:30 AM	Tolkien never mentioned female dwarves at all, and are the only "good" race without such. Many have taken this omission as a implication that either the females are indistinguishable from males, or that there are no females. In fact, there is a back-door mention of females. Thorin Oakenshield had two "sister-sons" in the party from The Hobbit. Also, the nature of the dwarven culture in the novels was one of secrecy. So, it is likely that any females were hidden away, and not to be spoken of out of the home caverns. Yes, yes he did. It's from Tolkien that we get the whole "female dwarves have beards" idea in the first place. He didn't mention them directly in the story of Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit, but the whole backstory of dwarves is right there in the LotR appendices and is expanded upon in the Silmarillion. Basically, dwarf-women are bearded and very hard to tell apart from dwarf males. They're extremely retiring and shy, and rarely leave their homes, so this combined with the fact that they look like the males is why a lot of humans believe dwarf-women don't exist and dwarves spring up from the stone like fungi. Dwarf-women are also comparatively rare -- only 30% of the population is ever born female, and not all of these females mate (dwarf males have much less of a natural sex drive than human males and don't become fathers that often because of the responsibilities involved). This is one reason dwarves in Tolkien *do* have a very low natural birthrate. (And dwarves in Tolkien, by the way, are the opposite of the screaming-army-of-fury stereotype. They're taciturn, withdrawn, and highly unlikely to make open war except to defend their own territory.) As to DnD, there has never been any unified answer. I don't remember about Greyhawk, but Forgotten Realms females didn't have facial hair. And in Darksun, all the dwarfs (in DnD they are NOT dwarVes with a V) are beardless. Actually, D&D's been using Tolkien's spellings "elves" and "dwarves" for quite a long time. Go back and check. If they were, indeed, avoiding Tolkien spellings, then you'd be seeing words like "elfin" and "elfish" and "dwarfin". If you want an interesting commentary on dwarf culture and females with facial hair, pick up a copy of Terry Pratchet's "Thud!" Of corse, that is not all the book comments on, but it's all good stuff. The Terry Pratchett take on female dwarfs is actually far more expanded on in the book Feet of Clay (where the character of Cheery/Cheri Littlebottom is introduced) and The Fifth Elephant (where Cheri goes back home to Uberwald and sees how the cultural changes she initiated have spread). Thud! contains comparatively little about female dwarfs, though it does talk quite a bit about Pratchett's version of dwarf culture.
Wharin 05-03-07, 08:31 AM	In fact, there is a back-door mention of females. Thorin Oakenshield had two "sister-sons" in the party from The Hobbit. Was it Fili and Kili? I always suspected those two. If you want an interesting commentary on dwarf culture and females with facial hair, pick up a copy of Terry Pratchet's "Thud!" Of corse, that is not all the book comments on, but it's all good stuff. Actually, I'd recommend "Guards! Guards!" and "Fifth Elephant" moreso than "Thud!" if you are talking about Dwarven points of view on gender. Though just on principal I recommend Pratchett's Discworld (any and all books) to everyone (My personal favorite being the Guards series). [edit: as pointed out by ArcTan, Feet of Clay is also a good book on the matter.
ArcTan 05-03-07, 08:44 AM	I used the words: ‘masculine and ugly’ about dwarves. I probably should have used the words: ‘somewhat masculine and rarely in possession of the traditional kind of beauty’ :rolleyes: , but I was in a hurry. People not deliberately misinterpreting will get the point. The part about ugly obese guys refer to sitcoms and movies, and the idea that men are supposed to be chucky and diverse in the way they look, while women are only fit to appear in the media if they fit a very narrow (in several ways) ideal of beauty. Think long and hard. How many old, fat, or unattractive women appear in fiction (books, movies, games ect.)? How many attractive male fiends are featured in D&D books, compared to female? I gotta say that while there definitely is a lot of sexist unfairness as far as body image goes, you're going way too far if you claim that it's accepted or even a positive thing for guys to be fat. It isn't actually fun to be a fat dude at any point in your life, even in middle age when it *used to* be a more accepted thing than it is now -- never mind being fat and in your teens. Seriously, there's a reason the fat dudes fantasizing about the fat dudes with skinny chicks are playing D&D with each other instead of actually dating skinny chicks. It’s not WotC’s job to encourage these stereotypes. They’re already pushed by tradition, to portray the all-female species (dryads and nymphs) as stunningly beautiful. It has nothing to do with beards, but we don’t need a porn… sorry, lineage dwarf description like “contrary to the male dwarves, the females don’t have any body hair, they look more like elves, apart from having round ears, chubbier cheeks (but not fat, fat girls are ugly) and fuller lips, and being very curvy. Their weight is approximately 60% of the males’ (40% if you disregard the head and the boobs)”. Well, let's be honest -- it's WotC's job to make money so they can feed their families and pay their mortgages and buy their new Mercedes. If their target audience wants pictures of hot chicks, then putting more hot chicks in the books will get them more money, even if it ticks some of their audience off. You can't realistically expect or demand more from them than reacting to their target audience, nor can you blame them for what happens as a result -- they're just giving people what they want. It's the geek boys who want the pictures of slender elven lasses you should be directing your ire at. And, to be honest, this is a pretty extreme example we're dealing with here. Yeah, a gaming product that continues to show women with bare skin everywhere and ridiculously sexualized poses and proportions as opposed to battle-ready tough-guy men who actually do things is clearly sexist. It's creating male characters for the player to identify with and female characters for the player to identify and look at. (And while a lot of D&D art is still like this, you have to give the WotC people some credit -- D&D is a lot better about this now than it was back in the glory days of rolling on the courtesan table.) On the other hand, something that grossly disturbs our general sense of the gender dynamic -- women having large amounts of facial hair, for example -- alienates both men *and* women who might want to play those characters. I know plenty of female gamers who have no interest in playing sex-kitten stereotypes but who'd still get turned off by the idea of playing a female character with a long, full beard. The whole way the PC races are designed in the first place is that they're supposed to provide identifiable caricatured character types so that a new player can easily find someone he wants to look like or be in the world -- which is why the "bad guy" races and the truly inhuman, horrifying or disgusting races are *not* provided as core options in the core PHB. And about + con making you skinny, and – con making you fat, it’s usually the other way around. BoVD contains 2 feats that change your weight. The obese feat gives + 2 con and – 2 dex, while the other gives + 2 dex and – 2 con. Remember, your endurance will be negatively affected by not having ‘reserves’ of energy to spend, and con also represents ability to withstand cold and take a punch. Con doesn't really have a clear meaning in D&D -- it's clear that you can have a high Con and be quite healthy and still a small person (Gnomes have a +2 Con), but the stereotype of dwarves is indeed that they have more padding on their frame than the average human (which does *not* make them "obese" or even overweight for their race). The part of Con that's about HP and damage makes sense here -- bigger, thicker bodies absorb more blows before dying, can go longer without eating to survive, can survive in warmer temperatures, etc. -- that's why many species naturally grow a thick layer of fat -- and the part about resisting poison or disease could go either way. Yes, *a lot of* humans in real life who are overweight are overweight because they eat empty-calorie diets and never exercise. A lot of humans are also overweight and otherwise very healthy. And an animal from a different species, like a whale, has much thicker layers of fat than a human does but this is completely natural and healthy for that animal. As far as the BoVD feats, those are clearly a supernaturally granted form of obesity and emaciation and not obviously meant to reflect what happens if you're just naturally fat, as opposed to your body being bloated by a vile mutation. The Unearthed Arcana trait called "Skinny" just gives you the characteristics you'd literally have for being skinny -- you wriggle out of things more easily (bonus on Escape Artist checks) but are physically lighter and easier to move (penalty on Bull Rush checks) and the trait "Stout" is simply the opposite. And both have a roleplaying note that people unusually under- or overweight often face a negative social reaction for this and that this might shape your personality. To me, that's all you really need, and that's the right way to do it.
ArcTan 05-03-07, 08:45 AM	Was it Fili and Kili? I always suspected those two. Actually, I'd recommend "Guards! Guards!" and "Fifth Elephant" moreso than "Thud!" if you are talking about Dwarven points of view on gender. Though just on principal I recommend Pratchett's Discworld (any and all books) to everyone (My personal favorite being the Guards series). [edit: as pointed out by ArcTan, Feet of Clay is also a good book on the matter. I didn't realize Guards! Guards! mentioned dwarfish sexuality at all, except in passing. Is there even a major dwarf character in that book?
Wharin 05-03-07, 08:52 AM	I didn't realize Guards! Guards! mentioned dwarfish sexuality at all, except in passing. Is there even a major dwarf character in that book? Tsk Tsk... Are you already discounting Carrot? And actually yeah, in the first few 'chapters' of Guards! Guards! Pratchett actually goes into alot of detail on dwarven culture, particularly their lack of metaphor and gender identity. I half-suspect the reason why Minty's father was sooo not wanting Carrot as a son-in-law was because he knew more about Minty's gender than Carrot did. Of course that was just wild speculation, but it would make sense.
ArcTan 05-03-07, 08:59 AM	I've always prefered the Dragonlance setting, no beards though they do sometimes sport some soft downy cheek hair. As for Erato's comments on dwarves..... :hoppingma you need to read some books there pal. Dwarves are not and never have been fat and ugly, they get a Con bonus for a reason. If any race should be fat its elves that have a negative to Con, as in not healthy. Dwarves are repeatedly described as "stout", and the standard height/weight charts place the average male Dwarf in D&D as about 4'3" and about 150 lbs. Whether the Dwarf looks "fat", per se, is up to you, but he's definitely very heavy for his height compared to a Human. The average male Human in D&D is about 5'8" and about 160 lbs., for reference. (Yes, I'm rounding very poorly from the charts, so sue me.) Also for reference the average female Human is about 5'3" and weighs about 125 lbs., and the average female Dwarf is about is about 4'1" and about 130 lbs. So the average female Dwarf is actually heavier than the average female Human, and has quite a bit less difference in height and weight from her male counterpart. Even without the lack of facial hair, this is a pretty big difference in terms of sexual dimorphism -- dwarven society almost certainly lacks the human assumption that males can physically overpower females or that females will be instantly identifiable by their height and weight. As for being "ugly", Dwarves do have that Cha hit. That has, yes, a lot more to do with force of personality than physical appearance, but it's not a stretch to think that the idea of a society that makes you have the equivalent of a -2 Cha is a society that doesn't place a whole lot of value on grooming and appearance the way Humans do. (And the D&D fiction bears this out -- Dwarves see no reason not to dress in drab, utilitarian colors and consider the amount of effort even an ordinary Human woman puts into her appearance as being like a strutting peacock.) At the very least, though, we can guess that -- all questions of facial hair aside -- humanoids with the BMI of the average Dwarf do not correspond to most of our traditional notions of beauty. The numbers make it so that a normal-sized female Dwarf has to be, like, twice as thick as even a "pleasantly curvy plus-size" fashion model or "well-built athletic guy with a beer belly" would be, in order to fit those stats.
ArcTan 05-03-07, 09:01 AM	Tsk Tsk... Are you already discounting Carrot? And actually yeah, in the first few 'chapters' of Guards! Guards! Pratchett actually goes into alot of detail on dwarven culture, particularly their lack of metaphor and gender identity. I half-suspect the reason why Minty's father was sooo not wanting Carrot as a son-in-law was because he knew more about Minty's gender than Carrot did. Of course that was just wild speculation, but it would make sense. Oh, right, my memory just skipped over the Carrot chapters. The fact that Carrot was a human and most dwarfs probably find humans as attractive as most humans find dwarfs was probably another major factor (if not *the* major factor), though. The gender thing is supposed to be something all dwarfs go through when courting. The pretending-to-be-a-dwarf-but-actually-being-a-six-foot-tall-man thing, not so much. (Would *you* let *your* daughter date a twelve-foot-tall giant?)
ArcTan 05-03-07, 09:08 AM	I've always prefered the Dragonlance setting, no beards though they do sometimes sport some soft downy cheek hair. As for Erato's comments on dwarves..... :hoppingma you need to read some books there pal. Dwarves are not and never have been fat and ugly, they get a Con bonus for a reason. If any race should be fat its elves that have a negative to Con, as in not healthy. And just to comment again, it's actually bothering me a lot more than it should be, this assumption that being underweight is somehow healthier than being overweight. It isn't. Our abundance in the First World is such that for the first time in history overweight-related health problems are more common than underweight-related health problems -- but it's still a hell of a lot easier to make someone get sick and die by giving them not enough calories per day than too many calories per day, and the deaths every year outside the First World from hunger reflect that. Elves are, of course, just as suited to their frames as Humans and Dwarves are to theirs and calling them "underweight" is a mistake -- but the *total effects* of the -2 Con penalty, which include bleeding easier and being easier to beat up as well as stuff like getting tired easier and being more vulnerable to disease -- all are more consistent with being underweight than being overweight. Elves clearly have less of a natural reserve of fat and muscle than other races, and this means that they run out of steam easier for a vast range of biological tasks, everything from healing wounds to fighting off infections to *being able to be trained* to be a distance runner -- as is the case with a real-life human who's suffering from a calorie deficit. Fat certainly doesn't equal healthy, but assuming that unhealthy = fat is one of those things that does bad, distorted things to people's body images.
aotrscommander 05-03-07, 11:06 AM	Yes, yes he did. It's from Tolkien that we get the whole "female dwarves have beards" idea in the first place. He didn't mention them directly in the story of Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit, but the whole backstory of dwarves is right there in the LotR appendices and is expanded upon in the Silmarillion. Basically, dwarf-women are bearded and very hard to tell apart from dwarf males. They're extremely retiring and shy, and rarely leave their homes, so this combined with the fact that they look like the males is why a lot of humans believe dwarf-women don't exist and dwarves spring up from the stone like fungi. Trouble is, the only sentence I could find on the subject (which was in the paragraph about Dis in LotR) is a bit vague. It could mean that all Dwarves do have beards (including the females). Or it could mean that they simply are fairly homogenous and that humans, who are not noted for their ability for perception in general (how often have you heard the phrase of some ethnic group "they all look alike to me") and Elves (who just don't really care) can't tell the difference between male and female Dwarves when their in their outdoor gear. (Either because not all Dwarves have beards (I don't recall Tolkien saying specifically that Dwarf beards are a social requirement, but I coiuld be wrong) or because Men and Elves (etc) are sufficently unfamilar with Dwarves that they don't make the connection that Dwarf-sans-beard = female, even if they make the connection that Dwarf-sans-beard = unusual.) Like I said, it's a bit vague. It would have helped if Tolkien had enough physhic abilities to see into the future and answer all our gaming questions. I suspect his commetry on female Dwarves wasn't really designed to be subjected to the kind of analysis we gamers subject it too! Moving on (as you may have surmised from the last paragraph), I work on the basis of Dwarf females do not have beards. However, they also do have Dwarf build (that image linked earlier looked like an Elf, frankly). Dwarves, by nature are not thin (same as Elves, by nature are not fat). On the other hand, something that grossly disturbs our general sense of the gender dynamic -- women having large amounts of facial hair, for example -- alienates both men *and* women who might want to play those characters. I think that's a large part of it. Me, part of my problem also comes exactly from Pratchett and similar works. (Not, I hasten to add, because I dislike them or anything, quite the opposite!) It's just that Dwarf females having beards has become a sort of pantomime joke, and justifying it to me is about is as daft as justifying the currecnt arcane material components. I find it hard (outside Discworld or other appropriate areas of humour) to give it any credit. Conversely, for the sake of discussion, I find the old joke that Elf male and females look alike to be equally tired and unfunny in a serious context. I think both those ideas have their use, but only as steriotype jokes (heck, even steriotype jokes in-character). But not as serious racial contexts. Your milage may vary.
Wharin 05-03-07, 12:42 PM	Oh, right, my memory just skipped over the Carrot chapters. The fact that Carrot was a human and most dwarfs probably find humans as attractive as most humans find dwarfs was probably another major factor (if not *the* major factor), though. The gender thing is supposed to be something all dwarfs go through when courting. The pretending-to-be-a-dwarf-but-actually-being-a-six-foot-tall-man thing, not so much. (Would *you* let *your* daughter date a twelve-foot-tall giant?) Well, yes, there is that part too, him being a "freak" could/would definately be a/the major factor. BUT this is Pratchett, and there are certain unailable truths that exist on Discworld that don't exist in the real world. One of them is that the dwarven community accepted him as a dwarf. He's so much a dwarf that his palms actually itch in the presense of gold. Until he started growing up more than everyone else, even his parents even thought that he could be a real, real dwarf. Also, he is the son of a king. Now granted he is not the Lowking, but still... being the son of a king would make him quite a catch. The only people who would protest are the real deep downers. And it not so much that Carrot is "pretending" to be a dwarf (which is happening less and less as the series goes on, but rather that everyone is still buying it.
Lixith 05-03-07, 01:06 PM	I think the OP got it pretty right.... but only a SMALL percent of women... like 3% can have a full human beard. IMO
Erato 05-03-07, 01:06 PM	I gotta say that while there definitely is a lot of sexist unfairness as far as body image goes, you're going way too far if you claim that it's accepted or even a positive thing for guys to be fat. It isn't actually fun to be a fat dude at any point in your life, even in middle age when it *used to* be a more accepted thing than it is now -- never mind being fat and in your teens. Seriously, there's a reason the fat dudes fantasizing about the fat dudes with skinny chicks are playing D&D with each other instead of actually dating skinny chicks. I know overweight (or just stocky) people of both genders are often viewed negatively (believe me I know). I was thinking more about how the genders are portrayed in fiction. Still, in my country, fat women were shown to earn a lot less, and be less likely to get a job, than skinny women, while men showed no such difference. Listen, none of us like being judged on sight, and we all just want to pretend that, for us, looks don’t matter. I think this is why the fat/old/unattractive/nerdy guy banging the supermodel is so appealing. These fantasies are natural, but it’s unhealthy to indulge in them too much. I know a guy who never gives plump or unattractive girls a second glance, all while complaining that girls are shallow and stupid for not noticing his personality. He’s also fat, but believes this is strictly because of his genes, so it’s healthy and there’s nothing he can do about it (said shortly after he had ordered 2 large sandwiches with extra dressing, 3 liters of coke, and some pastry :rolleye2: – genetic my ***) He believes he will lose weight naturally when he gets older, just like his father (after having cancer :rolleyes: ), and even before that happens, he’ll find a pretty girl (like his father did), convince her to marry him (like his father did) by being really insistent, and live happily ever after. I real life he’ll be miserable. He’ll miss out on a lot of great girls, by solely judging them on their looks, he’ll get negative reactions from other men and women, both because of his physical appearance and his attitude, and he’ll die before his time, because of his unhealthy lifestyle :weep: And his gaming group, instead of encouraging him to face the facts and get the best out of life, is confirming his prejudices :banghead: by modelling the game-worlds after his (and their) fantasies. Many of them come to believe their own fantasies, which makes it harder for them to cope with real life, which again gives them a need to confirm that it’s normal and perfectly natural that all women are skinny and sexy, and don’t care about how guys look :nonono: Well, let's be honest -- it's WotC's job to make money so they can feed their families and pay their mortgages and buy their new Mercedes. If their target audience wants pictures of hot chicks, then putting more hot chicks in the books will get them more money, even if it ticks some of their audience off. You can't realistically expect or demand more from them than reacting to their target audience, nor can you blame them for what happens as a result -- they're just giving people what they want. It's the geek boys who want the pictures of slender elven lasses you should be directing your ire at. And, to be honest, this is a pretty extreme example we're dealing with here. Yeah, a gaming product that continues to show women with bare skin everywhere and ridiculously sexualized poses and proportions as opposed to battle-ready tough-guy men who actually do things is clearly sexist. It's creating male characters for the player to identify with and female characters for the player to identify and look at. (And while a lot of D&D art is still like this, you have to give the WotC people some credit -- D&D is a lot better about this now than it was back in the glory days of rolling on the courtesan table.) On the other hand, something that grossly disturbs our general sense of the gender dynamic -- women having large amounts of facial hair, for example -- alienates both men *and* women who might want to play those characters. I know plenty of female gamers who have no interest in playing sex-kitten stereotypes but who'd still get turned off by the idea of playing a female character with a long, full beard. The whole way the PC races are designed in the first place is that they're supposed to provide identifiable caricatured character types so that a new player can easily find someone he wants to look like or be in the world -- which is why the "bad guy" races and the truly inhuman, horrifying or disgusting races are *not* provided as core options in the core PHB. I was actually commenting more on the ‘lineage dwarf’ and ‘female dwarves should be more attractive’, than the beard. (I will say that the girls I know who would ever consider playing a dwarf wouldn’t care about the beard or even the gender of their characters :D ). I think WotC have a certain responsibility. Not a responsibility to promote political correctness, but a responsibility to present a variety of personalities and appearances. And in that respect they are, as you said, a lot better today than before :) And this is exactly why I don’t want pretty dwarven women to become the norm. If the player wants a pretty dwarf (male or female), fine. If the player wants a bearded dwarf (male or female), fine. As long as DMs aren’t encouraged to promote the “ugly/fat/old guy and pretty/skinny/young girl”-stereotype. (I’m looking forward to when they stop making males heavier than females of equal height in almost all their races :P ). Con doesn't really have a clear meaning in D&D -- it's clear that you can have a high Con and be quite healthy and still a small person (Gnomes have a +2 Con), but the stereotype of dwarves is indeed that they have more padding on their frame than the average human (which does *not* make them "obese" or even overweight for their race). The part of Con that's about HP and damage makes sense here -- bigger, thicker bodies absorb more blows before dying, can go longer without eating to survive, can survive in warmer temperatures, etc. -- that's why many species naturally grow a thick layer of fat -- and the part about resisting poison or disease could go either way. Yes, *a lot of* humans in real life who are overweight are overweight because they eat empty-calorie diets and never exercise. A lot of humans are also overweight and otherwise very healthy. And an animal from a different species, like a whale, has much thicker layers of fat than a human does but this is completely natural and healthy for that animal. As far as the BoVD feats, those are clearly a supernaturally granted form of obesity and emaciation and not obviously meant to reflect what happens if you're just naturally fat, as opposed to your body being bloated by a vile mutation. The Unearthed Arcana trait called "Skinny" just gives you the characteristics you'd literally have for being skinny -- you wriggle out of things more easily (bonus on Escape Artist checks) but are physically lighter and easier to move (penalty on Bull Rush checks) and the trait "Stout" is simply the opposite. And both have a roleplaying note that people unusually under- or overweight often face a negative social reaction for this and that this might shape your personality. To me, that's all you really need, and that's the right way to do it. I only showed the BoVD example to illustrate that skinny doesn’t = healthy and stocky (or even fat) doesn’t = unhealthy. Most of the races with a con bonus appear more stout than the ones without. Even gnomes are stockier than Halflings. That being said, I think the feats themselves was a mistake. They needlessly demonize a group of people that aren’t exactly treated kindly in our society as it is. But those books were made to promote the idea that kinky/ugly =evil and boring/pretty=good :nonono: , so it’s not really a surprise :rolleyes:
Erato 05-03-07, 01:14 PM	In case someone missed my point: I’m not against non-bearded dwarf women, I’m against dwarf women looking like porn-elves.
sigma999 05-03-07, 02:50 PM	It... doesn't mean anything to do with birthrate or reproduction, as far as I can tell. I mean, Goblins have a *really* high birthrate. Big deal. No, you seem to have misintrepreted that; high CON means the kids will have high CON, which means lower infant mortality on average.
Another Gnome 05-03-07, 03:03 PM	I've always prefered the Dragonlance setting, no beards though they do sometimes sport some soft downy cheek hair. Like most human women do? :detect:
Forgember 05-03-07, 03:22 PM	Dwarves are repeatedly described as "stout", and the standard height/weight charts place the average male Dwarf in D&D as about 4'3" and about 150 lbs. Whether the Dwarf looks "fat", per se, is up to you, but he's definitely very heavy for his height compared to a Human. The average male Human in D&D is about 5'8" and about 160 lbs., for reference. (Yes, I'm rounding very poorly from the charts, so sue me.) Also for reference the average female Human is about 5'3" and weighs about 125 lbs., and the average female Dwarf is about is about 4'1" and about 130 lbs. So the average female Dwarf is actually heavier than the average female Human, and has quite a bit less difference in height and weight from her male counterpart. Even without the lack of facial hair, this is a pretty big difference in terms of sexual dimorphism -- dwarven society almost certainly lacks the human assumption that males can physically overpower females or that females will be instantly identifiable by their height and weight. As for being "ugly", Dwarves do have that Cha hit. That has, yes, a lot more to do with force of personality than physical appearance, but it's not a stretch to think that the idea of a society that makes you have the equivalent of a -2 Cha is a society that doesn't place a whole lot of value on grooming and appearance the way Humans do. (And the D&D fiction bears this out -- Dwarves see no reason not to dress in drab, utilitarian colors and consider the amount of effort even an ordinary Human woman puts into her appearance as being like a strutting peacock.) At the very least, though, we can guess that -- all questions of facial hair aside -- humanoids with the BMI of the average Dwarf do not correspond to most of our traditional notions of beauty. The numbers make it so that a normal-sized female Dwarf has to be, like, twice as thick as even a "pleasantly curvy plus-size" fashion model or "well-built athletic guy with a beer belly" would be, in order to fit those stats. You seem to be forgeting that this is a different race, something we don't actually have in the real world. Your real world notions of BMI have nothing to do with the apearance of a dwarf. Their bodys are far more dense than that of a human making them completly proportionate to their hight and weight. Read the description of dwarves in Races of Stone. As for the slim vs fat thing its pretty obvious that slim people will run farther and swim better than the average obese person. Being overweight is not nessasarily bad but being obese is bad and would have a negative bearing on ones health. My contention is that a race known for great physical health will be less likly to be obese than one known for its bad physical health. Of course we are speaking of different races here once again so an obese Elf might not fit the "picture" of an obese human meaning they will not look "huge" simply overweight to the untrained human eye. Or perhaps with such a long lived race they have secret techniques of hiding this extra weight, who knows.
sigma999 05-04-07, 12:49 AM	You seem to be forgeting that this is a different race, something we don't actually have in the real world. Your real world notions of BMI have nothing to do with the apearance of a dwarf. Their bodys are far more dense than that of a human making them completly proportionate to their hight and weight. Read the description of dwarves in Races of Stone. As for the slim vs fat thing its pretty obvious that slim people will run farther and swim better than the average obese person. Being overweight is not nessasarily bad but being obese is bad and would have a negative bearing on ones health. My contention is that a race known for great physical health will be less likly to be obese than one known for its bad physical health. Of course we are speaking of different races here once again so an obese Elf might not fit the "picture" of an obese human meaning they will not look "huge" simply overweight to the untrained human eye. Or perhaps with such a long lived race they have secret techniques of hiding this extra weight, who knows. An example of an obese elf body type would be mine. I was BMI 18 around age 20-21, now luckily more muscle and heavier so probably around BMI 19-20. Girls sometimes joked that I am anorexic, which I'm not (compared to one of my brothers...) and guys just say "damn skinny". Right now, 5'10" and 130 lbs. Still underweight for my age today, but I consider my figure to be something like a 'fat elf'. Or... half-elf. Weight distribution on non-human species would indeed be as different from humans as a whole, as much as it is between various regional bloods of real-world humans. Compare northern-European to aboriginal Australians, you're find a huge difference in exactly where the fat goes. Another species? Yowza, that's like humans to chimps. I hate how fantasy races interbreed and the descendants breed true, though. All that divine creationism is needed to even explain how those non-human-yet-human races came about anyways... I usually figure it's a matter of divergent evolution waaaay back millions of years prior to whatever setting a world has, and either the races grew together or traveled from other worlds doesn't matter, they have the same origins.