Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gullas 08-31-07, 08:34 AM	if I'm posting on the wrong board for this disgussion , but anyway.... its basicly a poll about what you think its fair against that plus(for a LA 0 race). I think that any -2 in physical or to a mental stat would be ok.
RobbyPants 08-31-07, 08:47 AM	-2 in any stat. Really, when you think about it, once you give +2 X and -2 Y, the race immediately becomes unbalanced. Now, keeping it as low as +2, I don't think this is a problem. It adds flavor to the race. But I think that most people will figure their PC's class before the race anyway. So you're not going to pick a race that's bad at the class you want to play. I tend to feel that the +2 is stronger than the -2 anyway, because you're going to select something to minimze the impact of that +2. Lets take a look at a race with +2 Str/-2 Cha. You may say it's overpowered compared to the half orc. Well, what if we reversed it? +2 Cha/-2 Str is just as powerful. The only difference is now instead of playing a Fighter or Barbarian, you're going to play a Sorcerer or Bard. All in all, I think +2 X/-2 Y is just fine.
rone_leah 08-31-07, 02:23 PM	Yeah that :censored: me off that elves can get +2str, +2dex for -2con and -2int. I saw that and said why play a half-orc again
Dog_O_War 08-31-07, 03:48 PM	That -2con and int are the most character affecting penalties; attack penalties and save penalties are slowly off-set by level, but a hit point and skill penalty are the rashes that keep on burning. Realistically a +2/ -2 to any stat is reasonable simply because it does not justify a level adjustment modifier on its own, and since you can't have a negative level adjustment it does actually make some races "more powerful" than others. This is also flavorless though, even with 'rich backgrounds' added in.
SedrickNeoran 08-31-07, 05:26 PM	I find that the - that you give to balance a race really depends on what you want the race to be. Half orc gets a - to int becauts its a fighter type, thus "logically" should be less skilled, elves get a -2 con because as casters or archers HP isn't as important, because if the enemy gets into Melee range you are in trouble anyway... melee combat races do well losing Int, or Dex. Ranged combat races do well losing con and str, arcane casters do well losing Con, or Str, devine casters hold out all right lising Str or Con because of boost spells. This is all IMO though... I've played with races before. It's hard to get good ones going and keeping them balanced.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 08-31-07, 05:30 PM	A penalty in any other stat will do. If the other racial features are especially weak, no other penalty needed. But then again, I like it for race to matter a bit.
runestar 08-31-07, 10:38 PM	You must also consider the impact of the stat penalty. For example, orcs with their str bonus make excellent fighter types. A mental stat penalty is no little consequence to them, because the typical player is only concerned with cranking up his physical stats. Thus, I do not find it unbalancing to impose -2 in another physical stat (probably dex) or -2 in both int and cha.
TheAnthroDM 08-31-07, 10:47 PM	Yeah that :censored: me off that elves can get +2str, +2dex for -2con and -2int. I saw that and said why play a half-orc again Darkvision
Dragoon1 08-31-07, 10:57 PM	-2 Int feels right to me. -2 Int takes away skill points to counter the extra damage the +2 str gives. -2 cha on top of that takes away a good number of options while not realy being related to any of the things a fighter is good or bad at. With the -2 cha dropped a Half Orc could be a viable sorcerer or bard, while still being a good fighter and a bad wizard.
ArochanoX 09-01-07, 04:44 AM	I usually use the following ideas that are modified from the DMG. +2 Strenght can be countered by -2 to Dex or Con +2 Dexterity can be countered by -2 to Str or Con +2 Constitution can be countered by -2 to anything +2 Intelligence can be countered by -2 Con or Dex +2 Wisdom can be countered by -2 Con or Dex +2 Charisma can be countered by -2 Con or Dex The deal is that I've divided the abilities to "Offence and Defence": Strenght: Offence Dexterity: Offence and Defence Constitution: Defence Intelligence: Offence Wisdom: Offence Charisma: Offence So a bonus in offence must be countered with defence, and a defence can be countered with anything. Dexterity is a special case.
JackSnape 09-01-07, 03:13 PM	I swear I've read that when you make a penalty/bonus in strength it should be coundered with a double penalty elsewhere. The 1/2orc is -2 INT and CHA. I don't know if I agree that it's fair, but I think it's in core somewhere.
razvan_4356 09-01-07, 03:31 PM	Meh, the -2 on int and cha are justified not only stat based but also RP based. First off Str is an ability that generaly gets used more than any other. Just think about it: all that jumping over pits, swimming across streams, not to mention attacking, grappling and other combat oriented actions like overrun, bull rush etc. -2 Int is there to balance out the +2 Str given. It'll keep the skills low and keep the potential half-orc fighter from getting more Int based feats like whirlwind attack and Trip. -2 Cha is used to balance out not only the slight diference between +2 Str and -2 Int (which isn't enough, close, but not enough) but also the other ability the orc gains: Darkvision. Some may be upset by the fact that elves can gain +2 Str and Dex for -2 Con and Int. No Con and Int means you'll die quicker and not be able to put your high strength score to proper use and it'll also mean that all sorts of feats are out of your reach. IMO, Half-Orcs are well thought out. The only race I think is a bit unbalanced is the Dwarf :P I play a lot of dwarves because, even though I don't get the potential extra feat of the Human or meager skill bonuses of elves and half-elves, dwarves have +2 Con, which helps a lot, especialy in low level adventures, countered only by -2 Cha, an ability score a fighter will almost NEVER use, while the also poses Darkvision, +2 saves against spells (that replaces the potential Iron Will ) and +2 save agains poison (replacing Great Fort). Even though they're only given a 20 ft movement speed, this is balanced out by the fact that most fighters can't move at more than 20 ft anyway, given the heavy armors they carry. Then they get all the small insignificant skill bonuses and the super useful Stonecunning ability. All that for 20 ft movement and +2 Cha...a bit imbalanced :P But I like them :P Dwarves, IMO, are the best race for fighters, barbarians, rangers, wizards, since the 20 ft speed can be ignored by spells like longstrider and exp retreat, and the fighters and barbarians...all wear medium or, preferably, heavy armor. I always use a Mithrall Full Plate on my dwarf barbarian. Medium armor and 30 ft movement...now that's a good trade off :P
Sunic_Flames 09-01-07, 03:42 PM	Let's go through this. Str has its uses, but can be fully ignored if a spellcaster and somewhat ignored if non melee. Dex is generally useful. Dumping it is iffy, even on heavy armor characters (though, it'd still be low). Con matters for everyone. Especially lower hp classes as they have a smaller base. Int matters for spells and skills, and that's about it. Wis matters for divine casters, will saves, and a few other classes. Cha matters for spells and social skills. Now consider, since everyone needs con it's going to be the most useful overall, and therefore a +2 helps everyone, and a -2 hurts everyone. A cha penalty just means you aren't going to make a bard, or a sorcerer, whatever. It doesn't actually offset anything, especially not a con boost. An int penalty is annoying, but most of the ones that have it are big dumb brutes that have little in the way of a skilllist anyways. For the most part it just means no wizards. A wisdom penalty essentially means no divine spellcasters or monks (the will save hit can be marginalized). A dexterity penalty can be eaten, as -1 AC and -1 reflex saves means you get hurt a bit more often, but such classes also tend to be tough enough to take the abuse. A strength penalty, assuming a non small race typically means a bonus to a mental stat, which makes them the perfect casters. Point of all this? The rules compare stats to each other all wrong, making it a simple matter to pick whatever boosts you and penalizes something you can make marginal as 'compensation'. It doesn't help there are more elven subraces than I can fire an intensified twinned split rayed enervation at.:rolleyes:
Myst_the_Moonscout 09-01-07, 10:18 PM	I can understand the +2/-4 deal that goes with a str boost. Of all the stats a higher str score has the most impact on the game play from what I've observed so far, as a player and a DM. The obvious boost is the higher damage, as well as a greater chance to deal damage because your to-hit goes up as well (which means bad guys die quicker, posing less of a threat). You can carry more, and are physically more capable overall (jump, climb, swim, better chance to break things, move stuff, etc). I played in a party that had universally high str scores. We had no rogue and no cleric but that proved only a minor issue since we could break our way through most obstacles we hit. Brute force can solve a lot of situations. Of course, it's always going to depend on what sort of game it is. The above is more related to a dungeon crawl then a city adventure where high charisma would have more kick.
razvan_4356 09-02-07, 04:58 AM	The stats are also justified in an RP manner. Your dad was an orc, you sure's hell won't be smart and pretty :P Half-orcs are there for barbarians and the well known class of dumb-ugly fighters :P
Sunic_Flames 09-02-07, 12:49 PM	RP reasons are not meant to impose mechanical balance. Unless you'd allow players to get boosts for doing RP things they'd probably do anyways? This is why paladins and other such things fail epically. :P