Post/Author/DateTime	Post
darokinblade 08-28-07, 06:29 PM	Hey all, I am a DM right now in a party that has a Whisper Gnome rogue/warlock, Elf master specialist transmuter, dwarven paladin, and a halfling druid. The WG rogue has massive modifiers to his hide/move silently (+19/+15 in each at 3rd level) and deals quite a bit of damage. The problem that i am having is that looking over this race, i cant see why it doesnt have a level adjustment. As a small character he has a high speed, his ability scores dont balance out according to the DMG specs on races, he has a second level spell like ability usable once per day, in addition to a number of others, and HUGE modifiers to hide and move silently (+8/+4). Tied in with having darkvision and low light vision together, and the normal gnome bonuses, i just dont see how this is balanced when compared to a human... Just looking for thoughts before i houserule. ~D
Riversand 08-28-07, 07:07 PM	in my opinion, i have arace that is more closely balanced to it's trype, and weaker than that gnome race, with no spell-like, and it is an LA+1 i personally thing that the race is unbalanced, just tip the scales to level it out. so to speak.
bobothechimp 08-28-07, 07:39 PM	It's definitely too much for LA+0, but not enough for LA+1. I'd lower the speed to 20 feet and drop the power of the SLAs to make it LA+0, or take out the CHA penalty to make it LA+1.
YabaTheWhat 08-29-07, 11:23 AM	Whisper Gnomes would be balanced at LA+1 with no other adjustments. (I've done the math.) They're about as powerful as catfolk, and without a level adjustment, they make halflings (and goblins) completely obsolete as rogues. From what I can tell, the author probably believed that making gnomes overpowered was the only way people would play them. Of course, in doing so, the author took away everything that actually made them gnomes.
Xeorsos 09-02-07, 10:02 PM	Not that I think it's gonna sway a lot of minds, but I don't find Whisper Gnomes to be overpowered at all. Yes, they get some groovy abilities, but evaluate each one of them and maybe you'll agree with me. When arguing the point of balance between standard Gnomes (which few argue are overpowered) and Whisper Gnomes, it's important to ignore what common traits they share (small size, low-light vision, +1 attack vs. kobolds/goblinoids, etc.) and focus on the attributes that are unique to each subrace. So, that being said, let's approach what each gets. Whisper Gnomes +2 Dex +2 Con -2 Str -2 Cha This is a 1 for 1 deal here. I don't see the point in arguing that this is in any way unbalanced. 30' Land Speed This is nice, yes, but you're only moving as fast as a human, half orc, or elf. Gaining equality with a taller race is hardly game-breaking. Still, it's very convenient. Darkvision This is yet another ability that shoehorns them into a very specific character concept. Darkvision is handy and a distinct character advantage, but as it's available to other races (namely, dwarves) I don't see it as a balance issue. It's not even unusual when you consider the background of the subrace. +4 Hide/Move Silently More shoehorning. They *really* want you to be a rogue, don't they? Spell Like Abilities Silence (centered on self), Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message. Silence seems to be the only one that causes such a fuss, because it's a second level spell. Well, if you consider the crippling change in the use of it (from Long distance to Personal) it's only worth a 1st level spell. Of course, with the crippling change in Speak with Animals (all to Burrowing Mammals only) it's only worth an Orison. Standard Gnomes +2 Con -2 Str Again, 1 for 1, so this is no big deal. 20' Land Speed This is standard for a Small character. No discussion necessary. +2 on saves vs. Illusions I personally welcome a bonus to saves whenever I can get one. The bonus is situational, yes, but but illusions tend to screw a player over far more than concrete obstacles. +1 to DC of all cast Illusions This is freaking amazing. This is essentially the gnomes' "free feat." It might as well be called Even Greater Spell Focus (Illusion). This bonus stacks with any other bonuses you might get to your illusion DCs, which is a terrific help considering that nearly every Illusion spell is Will to Disbelieve. +2 Craft (Alchemy) Not exactly fantastic, but a bonus none-the-less. Spell-Like Abilities Speak with animals (burrowing mammals only), dancing lights, prestidigitation, and ghost sound. Keep in mind that Ghost Sound will benefit from the +1 Illusion DC. So, in conclusion, I find the two species to be very fairly balanced. Both have specific character paths in mind when playing one (The whisper gnomes far more than the standard gnomes) so your character concept is more likely to sway your decision than 30' land speed and darkvision. These are all simply my personal opinions, though. Feel free to decide for yourself.
Jaxgaret 09-02-07, 10:41 PM	Just drop their movement to 20' and leave them at LA+0. As far as I can tell, the flavor text for Whisper Gnomes doesn't give any reason for the increased movement speed beyond what is usual for a non-monstrous Small race.
yrogerg 09-03-07, 12:57 AM	Not that I think it's gonna sway a lot of minds, but I don't find Whisper Gnomes to be overpowered at all. Yes, they get some groovy abilities, but evaluate each one of them and maybe you'll agree with me. I think the problem is that you're trying to justify each of the abilities individually, rather than evaluating the overall effect of all the abilities. When arguing the point of balance between standard Gnomes (which few argue are overpowered) and Whisper Gnomes, it's important to ignore what common traits they share (small size, low-light vision, +1 attack vs. kobolds/goblinoids, etc.) and focus on the attributes that are unique to each subrace. So, that being said, let's approach what each gets. To a point, but only so long as you're only comparing them to standard gnomes. Personally, I think a better way to get a sense of where they stand power-wise is to compare them to other classes that commonly get used as rogues, namely Halflings and Goblins, or to other powerful but under LA +1 races like Dwarves. Whisper Gnomes are better at what they do than any of these, however. Whisper Gnomes +2 Dex +2 Con -2 Str -2 Cha This is a 1 for 1 deal here. I don't see the point in arguing that this is in any way unbalanced. And we disagree off the bat. Even if you're not going to use a Whisper Gnome as a Bard, Sorcerer, or Paladin (not that they'd be *that* bad at any of these, mind you), their stats are *way* to well-geared towards Rogues and Wizards to make this dismissable as a simple 1:1 deal. Also, I'm personally leery of a -2 to Charisma that's not coupled with another mental abiity penalty: all it actually is is a "dump-stat" flag to players, making this penalty worth considerably less than normal. 30' Land Speed This is nice, yes, but you're only moving as fast as a human, half orc, or elf. Gaining equality with a taller race is hardly game-breaking. Still, it's very convenient. Right, but they're *not* gaining parity with medium creatures, since they still gain all the other bonuses of being small (+1 to AC and attack, +4 to Hide). This is a net win. Darkvision This is yet another ability that shoehorns them into a very specific character concept. Darkvision is handy and a distinct character advantage, but as it's available to other races (namely, dwarves) I don't see it as a balance issue. It's not even unusual when you consider the background of the subrace. Darkvision's hardly a shoehorn, but it *is* a useful ability that's worth considering with LA. Dwarves have it, yes, but the general consensus is that Dwarves' overall suite of abilities is, in fact, on the higher end of LA +0 already. +4 Hide/Move Silently More shoehorning. They *really* want you to be a rogue, don't they? Hide and Move Silently are useful abilities for most classes. However, even so, that doesn't mean it's balanced. Trolls make great melee combatants, and lousy spellcasters and rogues. This doesn't mean that the fact that they make lousy spellcasters makes them balanced for low LA. Also, keep in mind that that stacks with Small Size, making that a net +8 to hide. WG can break DC 20 with relative ease at level 1. For rogues, this is *very* powerful. Also, you forgot Spot. Spell Like Abilities Silence (centered on self), Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message. Silence seems to be the only one that causes such a fuss, because it's a second level spell. Well, if you consider the crippling change in the use of it (from Long distance to Personal) it's only worth a 1st level spell. Of course, with the crippling change in Speak with Animals (all to Burrowing Mammals only) it's only worth an Orison. A Rogue with the ability to cast Silence on himself is a Rogue who has the ability to auto-defeat listen checks for one encounter /day and keep nearby spellcasters under wraps. Yes, it's more restricted than the original spell in one (and only one) dimension, but it maintains a lot of what made it useful to rogues in the first place. And it's much less restricted than the Speak With Animals ability normal gnomes get.
yrogerg 09-03-07, 01:12 AM	Now, to compare to normal Gnomes: Standard Gnomes +2 Con -2 Str Again, 1 for 1, so this is no big deal. Throw in a penalty to Cha and a bonus to Int, and would still be 1:1, and closer to what a Whisper Gnome is getting here. Whisper Gnomes win.[/quote] 20' Land Speed This is standard for a Small character. No discussion necessary. Except that Whisper Gnomes win by default in this round. +2 on saves vs. Illusions I personally welcome a bonus to saves whenever I can get one. The bonus is situational, yes, but but illusions tend to screw a player over far more than concrete obstacles. Keep in mind that +2 to *all* Will saves would be worth a feat. This is worth half a feat, at best. By contrast, Whisper Gnomes get an extra +4 to hide, which is worth 1 1/3 feats. Whisper gnomes win, and still have 2/3 of a feat left to spend elsewhere. +1 to DC of all cast Illusions This is freaking amazing. This is essentially the gnomes' "free feat." It might as well be called Even Greater Spell Focus (Illusion). This bonus stacks with any other bonuses you might get to your illusion DCs, which is a terrific help considering that nearly every Illusion spell is Will to Disbelieve. Agreed. This is a Gnome's best ability, and it's probably worth a feat. Let's match it up against a Whisper Gnome's +4 to Move Silently, take the extra 1/3 of a feat, add it to the 2/3 from the previous comparision, and now Whisper Gnomes are ahead by a feat. +2 Craft (Alchemy) Not exactly fantastic, but a bonus none-the-less. +2 to Spot's much more useful. Whisper Gnomes remain ahead by a feat. At least. Spell-Like Abilities Speak with animals (burrowing mammals only), dancing lights, prestidigitation, and ghost sound. Keep in mind that Ghost Sound will benefit from the +1 Illusion DC. Whisper Gnomes get similar, but more-useful, SLAs. Message is a *very* useful spell for coordinating players, and we've already discussed Silence. It's still not even, but since Whisper Gnomes come out well ahead already, it doesn't need more detail. And we didn't even mention Darkvision. Basically, if one of these races is balanced for LA +0, it seems pretty unlikely that the other is.
cat_god 09-03-07, 01:30 AM	Wow... these are freaky gnomes.
Salla 09-03-07, 01:38 AM	Wow... these are freaky gnomes. Ironically, they're far more interesting and useful than the 'standard' gnome.
Dazzer 09-03-07, 02:19 AM	This might not seem like much. The whisper gnome needs a charisma score of at least 10 to gain Message, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand. Since he gets a -2 penalty to charisma, this isn't that easy to attain. Consider, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 8. Of those, only 4 of those stats will gain him 10 minimum charisma. If he is a Rogue, he'll likely want 15 dex (which goes to 17). He'll probably put 14 intelligence for skills, searching and DD. 13, 12, 10, 8. If he puts his 12 in charisma to get 10. and his 13 in con to get 15. He either has 8 strength, and 8 wisdom. or 6 strength, and 10 wisdom....either way this is very debilitating. I can see most whisper gnomes having 8 or even 6 charisma if it is a dump stat.
Shadowhowler 09-03-07, 03:52 PM	I belive both Whispergnomes and Warforged occupy a strange nebulous region between standered race and +1LA race.
Jaxgaret 09-03-07, 03:58 PM	I belive both Whispergnomes and Warforged occupy a strange nebulous region between standered race and +1LA race. Hobgoblins too, but they're on the other side of it at LA +1.
metalmayhem80110 09-03-07, 04:18 PM	I'm sorry, but there is NO way a whisper gnome is balanced...... Seriously, a level 3 focussed whisper gnome's Hide/Move Silently can be above a 20....... That is also not including the fact that they can just silence..... Oh yeah, did I forget low light vision AND darkvision? A 30ft land speed on small creatures is really rare, and powerful. You may not think movement is really important, but it can make the difference in a lot of places..... Lets also not even mention the fact that they have other spell like abilities..... That just sounds like a LA +1 to me.....
gullas 09-03-07, 06:57 PM	I personally think that whisper gnomes are LA 1 , I ruled that when I was a dm , now that I'm a player , I do not have a clue what the dm thinks about it right now ...
Thalspar 09-03-07, 08:10 PM	if it suits yo to have the whisper gnome to be a la+1 the just go of and call it for the day. but really you are only looking it from the side it was meant to play, the rogue. so cha -2 and str -2 against +2 dex and +2 con good wizard and rogue but really what else?? sure they can play rangers druids fighter but honestly you aren't fully using the real benefits of the race. their best ability's only come out when you are playing an infiltrator or wizard.
yrogerg 09-03-07, 10:31 PM	if it suits yo to have the whisper gnome to be a la+1 the just go of and call it for the day. but really you are only looking it from the side it was meant to play, the rogue. so cha -2 and str -2 against +2 dex and +2 con good wizard and rogue but really what else?? sure they can play rangers druids fighter but honestly you aren't fully using the real benefits of the race. their best ability's only come out when you are playing an infiltrator or wizard. Right, but you don't look at a Troll or an Ogre and say, "They can only play Fighters and Barbarians! Clearly they need a low LA". You don't judge a race's LA based on the fact that it's not great for all the classes.
Xeorsos 09-04-07, 05:01 AM	You've made some really decent points, yrogerg. Whisper Gnomes *do* trace the edges of +0 and +1 LA, but so do a lot of other races. Still, I'm not sure that it's totally worth +1 LA. I mean, Aasimar are hardly worth +1, and Half-Dragons are completely not worth +3. Hell, Half Elves and Kobolds should let you take an *extra* level just for choosing them. I think that the wise DM would rule this to be a +0 or +1 race depending on the character's choice of classes. A rogue would excel immensely, but anything else (including a wizard) would be very fairly balanced. An interesting point of note would be that none of the base races offer a bonus to any mental stat. I figure this is in an effort to reduce the obvious advantages this would have to a caster. Oh, and I didn't mention the +2 Spot/Listen because both races get this.
yrogerg 09-04-07, 07:34 AM	Oh, and I didn't mention the +2 Spot/Listen because both races get this. Listen, yes. Only Whisper Gnomes get the bonus to Spot.
Xeorsos 09-05-07, 04:44 PM	Listen, yes. Only Whisper Gnomes get the bonus to Spot. Sorry, that was my mistake.
GnomeNinja 09-05-07, 09:06 PM	Whisper Gnomes are overpowered halflings, basically.
Eyedol 09-13-07, 11:09 PM	When one takes into account that Whisper Gnomes, as a racial feat, can both increase the number of silences a day and add silence to sneakattacks, the balance is most certainly tipped to +1 IMO. Caster Killers extraordinaire.
gullas 09-14-07, 04:56 AM	now that I recall , to justify that Whisper Gnomes was an lvl adjustment 1 back then , I gave them +2 on two other skills:D ...... still dont remember what skills those two were:(
Empirate 09-14-07, 06:06 AM	Seeing as many LA+1 races (Planetouched come to mind, Genasi in FR are even more in case, Hogoblins of course etc.) are rather not-so-powerful, but get a few things that are nice to have for a very few classes, I'd say WG should fall into the same category. LA tends to always be just a little too high, except for a very few templates (Feral, Dark...). That's simply the price you pay for playing something non-PH, for adding that extra touch of coolness and effectiveness. It's not ONLY a balance thing. WG are cooler and more effective (in specific regards) than any other LA+0 race. They outshine Halflings, as well as regular Gnomes, both of whom are the natural points of comparison: They make better Rogues and better Wizards. So LA+1 it is in my book. Not that WG have ever popped up in my campaign, anyway, just for the sake of argument...
CaoSlayer 09-14-07, 08:02 AM	Darkvision This is yet another ability that shoehorns them into a very specific character concept. Darkvision is handy and a distinct character advantage, but as it's available to other races (namely, dwarves) I don't see it as a balance issue. It's not even unusual when you consider the background of the subrace. Hardly an advantage? No, is not hardly an advantage, is a HUGE advantage. I will explain it in few words: It is useless to have 2000 ranks in hide if you must scout using a torch. For being able to scout you must be able to see in the pitch black darkness of a dungeon since otherwise you should explore blindly and remember that 90% of the MM creatures have darkvision.
EvilVegan 09-14-07, 08:56 AM	Not that I think it's gonna sway a lot of minds, but I don't find Whisper Gnomes to be overpowered at all. Yes, they get some groovy abilities, but evaluate each one of them and maybe you'll agree with me. When arguing the point of balance between standard Gnomes (which few argue are overpowered) and Whisper Gnomes, it's important to ignore what common traits they share (small size, low-light vision, +1 attack vs. kobolds/goblinoids, etc.) and focus on the attributes that are unique to each subrace. So, that being said, let's approach what each gets. Whisper Gnomes +2 Dex +2 Con -2 Str -2 Cha This is a 1 for 1 deal here. I don't see the point in arguing that this is in any way unbalanced. 30' Land Speed This is nice, yes, but you're only moving as fast as a human, half orc, or elf. Gaining equality with a taller race is hardly game-breaking. Still, it's very convenient. Darkvision This is yet another ability that shoehorns them into a very specific character concept. Darkvision is handy and a distinct character advantage, but as it's available to other races (namely, dwarves) I don't see it as a balance issue. It's not even unusual when you consider the background of the subrace. +4 Hide/Move Silently More shoehorning. They *really* want you to be a rogue, don't they? Spell Like Abilities Silence (centered on self), Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message. Silence seems to be the only one that causes such a fuss, because it's a second level spell. Well, if you consider the crippling change in the use of it (from Long distance to Personal) it's only worth a 1st level spell. Of course, with the crippling change in Speak with Animals (all to Burrowing Mammals only) it's only worth an Orison. Standard Gnomes +2 Con -2 Str Again, 1 for 1, so this is no big deal. 20' Land Speed This is standard for a Small character. No discussion necessary. +2 on saves vs. Illusions I personally welcome a bonus to saves whenever I can get one. The bonus is situational, yes, but but illusions tend to screw a player over far more than concrete obstacles. +1 to DC of all cast Illusions This is freaking amazing. This is essentially the gnomes' "free feat." It might as well be called Even Greater Spell Focus (Illusion). This bonus stacks with any other bonuses you might get to your illusion DCs, which is a terrific help considering that nearly every Illusion spell is Will to Disbelieve. +2 Craft (Alchemy) Not exactly fantastic, but a bonus none-the-less. Spell-Like Abilities Speak with animals (burrowing mammals only), dancing lights, prestidigitation, and ghost sound. Keep in mind that Ghost Sound will benefit from the +1 Illusion DC. So, in conclusion, I find the two species to be very fairly balanced. Both have specific character paths in mind when playing one (The whisper gnomes far more than the standard gnomes) so your character concept is more likely to sway your decision than 30' land speed and darkvision. These are all simply my personal opinions, though. Feel free to decide for yourself.So a race is balanced because each of it's individual abilities is shared by another +0 LA race and isn't unbalanced by itself? Interesting. So this: Ability modifiers: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha Size: Small Speed: Base land speed is 30 feet. However, their speed is never reduced by encumbrance (unless it is over a heavy load). Darkvision 60 feet Low light vision 1 extra feat at 1st level. 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. Stone cunning Weapon Familiarity: Treat all racial weapons as martial weapons Stability +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs, kobolds, and goblinoids. +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal and Craft (alchemy) checks. +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. If this creature passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the creature's +1 bonus on saving throws in general and against spells. +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings Immunity to magic sleep effects, and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by this creature. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. Crazy Blood: For all effects related to race, this race is considered every race. Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A creature with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + creature's Cha modifier + spell level. Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Orc, Halfling, Gnome. Bonus Languages: Any. Favored Class: Any LA +0. Is balanced? I mean, each ability is only helpful if you play a class that benefits from the ability and their ability scores are balanced. :rolleyes:
Ikeman04 09-14-07, 10:06 AM	I always thought Whisper ZGnomes had a +1 LA and I (as a player) wouldn't want to use one with no LA. It'd just be too broken, as well as sticking me in a rut (a couple humans? Hide/MS, sneak-attack. Ogres? Hide/MS, sneak-attack. A dragon? Hide/MS, sneak-attack).
EvilVegan 09-14-07, 10:15 AM	I'd play one, but only as a non-rogue.
Shigure 01-16-08, 03:43 PM	I'd play one, as a rouge, and slap the Dark template on it for good measure! When you've got a dm like mine that is so nefarious...so effing bloody brilliant...you need any little advantage you can get to make do in his games. Course this makes his games incredibly fun so i'm not really complaining. Whether or not you make the WG an LA1 or not really depends on your dm and his playstyles. If he's really good like mine is you could argue that you sometimes need that extra bit of power to deal with his plots. If, on the other hand, you have a so so dm then you'll probably need to give WG a +1.
Jaxgaret 01-16-08, 06:38 PM	(a couple humans? Hide/MS, sneak-attack. Ogres? Hide/MS, sneak-attack. A dragon? Hide/MS, sneak-attack) :rofl:
Phelix_the_Warrior 01-17-08, 04:27 AM	Ironically, they're far more interesting and useful than the 'standard' gnome. How is being drab and sullen interesting? Because Im the other side of the coin, I finished the first sentence under whisper gnome and skipped the race never to return and look until now. (I just dont like races that cant take a joke [I also dont like paladins who cant take a joke....or liches for that matter] Because without the gnomes personality they are just... halflings with constitution
EvilVegan 01-17-08, 11:50 AM	My wife is playing a whisper gnome rogue currently. She does some crazy things. I made her super-powered to compensate for a minor lack in gaming skill, but she decimates things. Personally I think the Whisper Gnome should be +1 LA without the Cha penalty. Or remove the +10 speed bonus and darkvision. They don't just step on halfling and goblin toes in the rogue arena, they crush them into the ground. +8 to hide? +4 to Move Silently? No speed reduction for being small? Silence? Spot/Listen Bonus? And if the author of this race thought it needed a boost because gnomes don't see much play, he's a moron and also terrible at balanced race design. I'd play one, as a rouge, and slap the Dark template on it for good measure! When you've got a dm like mine that is so nefarious...so effing bloody brilliant...you need any little advantage you can get to make do in his games. Course this makes his games incredibly fun so i'm not really complaining. Whether or not you make the WG an LA1 or not really depends on your dm and his playstyles. If he's really good like mine is you could argue that you sometimes need that extra bit of power to deal with his plots. If, on the other hand, you have a so so dm then you'll probably need to give WG a +1. Actually that indicates, to me, that your DM isn't very good. If you're having so much trouble overcoming encounters that the only way to do so is using overpowered templates or free LA, that means he doesn't know how to balance encounters. In other words, he should tone it down or make it understood that you have to be super-powered in order to compete. The standard game is 25 point buy, no LA, and it should be challenging but not impossible. If you need a 36 point buy +2 LA creature to survive, your DM doesn't know what he's doing. And of course, this is all from a rule's perspective, not from a fun game perspective. I prefer fun over rules myself, as such I really enjoy 36 point buy, max hp, gestalt games. It really doesn't matter how "good" a DM he is to determine whether a race is balanced.
Shigure 01-17-08, 01:49 PM	Actually that indicates, to me, that your DM isn't very good. If you're having so much trouble overcoming encounters that the only way to do so is using overpowered templates or free LA, that means he doesn't know how to balance encounters. In other words, he should tone it down or make it understood that you have to be super-powered in order to compete. The standard game is 25 point buy, no LA, and it should be challenging but not impossible. If you need a 36 point buy +2 LA creature to survive, your DM doesn't know what he's doing. Acutally he's well aware of how to balance games. He's very good at getting the most out of his NPCs and monters and our group tends to like high powered games.
Velcro Zipper 01-17-08, 04:02 PM	I've played in two low-level games that featured Whisper Gnomes, and the Whispers were clearly capable of out-performing pretty much everyone else in the party. Many players I've noticed completely ignore the racial personality descriptions and these players were no different. Sure, that's a case of poor roleplaying. However, it only helped to shed more light on how out of sync the Whispers were with the other party members. With no social quirks or quiet demeanor to hold them back these players were able to fully exploit the Whisper Gnome abilities to make themselves one-gnome ninja death squads. If it couldn't be sneak attacked, they merely used their obscene stealth skills to hide out until the rest of the party had either killed or been killed by the bad guys. I'd say the Whisper Gnomes were operating at at least one level above everyone else.
Hanzo187 01-18-08, 08:09 PM	What about if you got rid of Low-Light Vision and knocked down Darkvision to 30' (from a flavor standpoint, considering their Favored Class, their strength come from being within 30 ft. of the enemy)? You could also consider getting rid of all the SLA's except Silence (self) and Ghost Sound.
Empirate 01-26-08, 11:38 AM	Yeah, or you could simply leave the WG as is, and put it on one level with Genasi, Planetouched, Hobgoblins and others like them: Perhaps LA+1 may be a little high, but hey! you want something new, something cool, something with an ever-so-slight (or not so slight) edge, you pay the price!
Argo 01-26-08, 01:10 PM	Why does everybody always call Charisma a dump stat? I think it's pretty effing important, especially for a rogue. UMD? Bluff? Diplomacy? Intimidate? I would rather have a negative mod in STR or WIS than CHA any day of the week. But hey, that's me. I played a Whisper Gnome Rogue a while back, and the Charisma penalty was crippling. Nearly got me killed on several occasions with some failed UMD, Diplomacy checks at crucial moments. I barely managed to save the party cleric from dying, but for a lucky roll and activating his wand of CLW. Another time, the party Ranger DID die because he couldn't stabilize and I failed five attempts in a row to heal him. I had to sacrifice CON in order to qualify for my extra SLAs. Anyway, the Whisper Gnome is actually not overpowered in practice. Yeah, he's got some useful abilities. The darkvision is pretty clutch. But all told, you don't deal much damage, you're only not slowing down the party, Silence can be as much of a hindrance as a boon. Monsters may not hear you, but the very fact that they can't hear anything at all is enough to let them know you're there. Your party's casters have to be thirty feet from you if you're using it. Message is useless in Silence. The bonuses to Hide and Move Silently are good. But you're (probably) a Rogue. You're supposed to be good at that. It's kind of like saying the dwarf is a broken race because it's really well-suited to underground envirnoments. And if you're not playing a Rogue, then more than likely Hide and MS are cross-class for you, so odds are that bonus will only help you through the first two or three levels before becoming utterly irrelevant. But again, that's my thinking. I played the race, and it didn't seem any more powerful than the Human Cleric or the Half-Orc Barbarian, or the Elf Ranger, or the Dwarf Fighter. It just had a few more nifty bells and whistles that in the end didn't amount to much of an edge overall. Although the Silence-enhancing feats did make for a pretty keen caster-killer.
teshen 01-26-08, 02:59 PM	Yeah, or you could simply leave the WG as is, and put it on one level with Genasi, Planetouched, Hobgoblins and others like them. . . If you mean biting for the level adjustment, then yeah, I agree. I like the idea of genasi and hobgoblins, but I always use them as npcs rather than play one because being behind in hit points and spells for neat colored skin just doesn't equate. Why does everybody always call Charisma a dump stat? I think it's pretty effing important, especially for a rogue. UMD? Bluff? Diplomacy? Intimidate? I would rather have a negative mod in STR or WIS than CHA any day of the week. But hey, that's me. . . And Use Magic Device is one of a rogue's best friends. So are a lot of the charisma related skills. The best stuff I've ever had happen with rogues is with diplomacy and use magic device. Lets look at it from another angle... how is the whisper gnome in other classes? If he's a caster, the skill bonuses keep him alive at lower levels by giving him a better chance to notice trouble and hide from it, but later on his spells are much more important... with a lot of those skills being cross class. If it's anything melee, the bonuses to hide and move silently will be negated somewhat, and again, useless at higher levels... unless he's a ranger, at which he'd excel. But small races still have crap damage and the strength penalty to contend with. Classes that blend stealth with some sort of damage bonus work well for whisper gnomes like rogue and CA ninja. Stealth classes like ranger and scout work well but contend with weak weapons... and then there's monk, who in theory should be a good combination, but monks in general are weak and add to that being a small monk... it's just pathetic. A good caster would be the illusionist variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionist Variants) specialist wizard where he can continue to use his hide, but even so, his magic is going to be more important than race... because magic in dnd is just more important. And if you still use favored classes, you're just about married to something if it isn't favored... whisper gnome ranger? No swift hunter for you unless you want to ditch 20% of your xp from level 8 on out... Can you envision an effective whisper gnome fighter? A halfling's saves would probably work better on a fighter type. A whisper gnome barbarian? Rages would last one round longer, but so would a dwarven barbarian and he's not contending with the -2 to strength to start with and has bigger weapons. An effective whisper gnome sorcerer? Human. Two feats are better than one. Spellcasting prodigy + Fiery burst > penalized charisma score. Yeah, whisper gnomes might merit the level adjustment... and maybe he's just so specialized that he's the best at what he does only if that's rogue or rogue + something.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 01-26-08, 03:37 PM	Yeah, or you could simply leave the WG as is, and put it on one level with Genasi, Planetouched, Hobgoblins and others like them: Perhaps LA+1 may be a little high, but hey! you want something new, something cool, something with an ever-so-slight (or not so slight) edge, you pay the price! See now, this is effing horrible design. You never punish a character/player mechanically for being cool. Never.
EvilVegan 01-26-08, 04:33 PM	Nearly got me killed on several occasions with some failed UMD, Diplomacy checks at crucial moments. I barely managed to save the party cleric from dying, but for a lucky roll and activating his wand of CLW. Another time, the party Ranger DID die because he couldn't stabilize and I failed five attempts in a row to heal him. I had to sacrifice CON in order to qualify for my extra SLAs.Amazing! On several occasions you failed many UMD and diplomacy checks by exactly 1 point? That's almost unbelievable! Oh wait. You might just be using an anecdote to show that you aren't over-powered because you roll low often enough not to notice. "My DM let me play an ancient wyrm red dragon, but it wasn't overpowered because I rolled 1s all night! The kobold commoner we had was much more powerful than my character (he never rolled below a 17!)" The bonuses to Hide and Move Silently are good. But you're (probably) a Rogue. You're supposed to be good at that.That's not the point. The point is are you supposed to be much better than any other +0 LA race at that. They make the best rogues for a 0 LA. It has a +4 bonus to hide (on top of being small) and move silently (on top of silence ability). Darkvision. 30 speed. Small. Spot/Listen bonus. SLAs that aid rogues. It is too good for a rogue. It isn't worth an LA, but it is too good for +0 if you're a rogue. It is too specific of a race. But it makes a fun rogue.
Rathon 01-27-08, 10:01 PM	Personally i love wisper gnomes, i dont think they are broken at all and out side of a rogue i dont see them as good at all. sure they are incredible as rogues and yes they may have better stats than most other non LA 0 but come on give em a break. halflings imo are just as good as rogues in that yes they get a -2 to strength but they make up for it with the +2 to climb and jump which are some pretty important skills depending on how you use them. besides thats the flavor of the race they are ment to be fast little buggers who get in and out as quickly and silently as possible. my friend made a wisper gnome rogue for my game that i run, yea he had a nutz hide and move silently check but he was fun to play and he had no trouble balanceing out with the rest of the group. on the whole our halfling druid and 2 human monks were a much scarier combonation and much more efficient than our WG rogue. it all depends on the party your with but personally i love their flavor and look forward to using them alot more in my campaign.
EvilVegan 01-28-08, 10:56 AM	Personally i love wisper gnomes, i dont think they are broken at all and out side of a rogue i dont see them as good at all. sure they are incredible as rogues and yes they may have better stats than most other non LA 0 but come on give em a break. halflings imo are just as good as rogues in that yes they get a -2 to strength but they make up for it with the +2 to climb and jump which are some pretty important skills depending on how you use them.Actually halflings get +1 to climb and -5 to jump. They have a 20 ft speed which gives a -6 penalty to jump checks and they have a -2 str mod which reduces climb and jump checks by 1. So a halfling has -5 to jump, a whisper gnome has -1 (from str). Who jumps better? Also, a whisper gnome can jump farther, he can do 30 ft jumps as a single move action, where it would be 2 move actions for a halfling. Halflings get +1 to all saves and attacks with thrown/slings weapons. They make decent thrower/slingers. They don't have any improved vision in the dark, so they can't scout. They are slow. They are barely able to do the things they're built for (athletics) on par with a human or whisper gnome. So really, +3 to slings/thrown (-2 average damage), +1 to saves, +2 listen, is about all they have going for them. Whisper gnomes have +2 to all ranged attacks (and melee attacks with finesse), darkvision, lowlight vision, speed, amazing stealth (+8 base hide before ranks/dex?), silence (negating all need for move silently 1/day, but they still have +4 MS before ranks/dex anyway), and +2 to both spot & listen bonuses. They even have walky-talky's built in via message. I'm sorry, saying that a halfling is "just as good" is absurd. Whisper gnomes completely decimate any other 0 LA race in the rogue class. Everything a halfling can do, a whisper gnome can do just as well, and often better by at least +2. Other things the Whisper gnome can do, a halfling can't even attempt. Like seeing in the dark. You're not playing your rogue right if halfling rogue = whisper gnome rogue. If you're playing a paladin or barbarian, it won't be as much of an issue. Silence is still an amazing boon against casters (especially if you don't cast spells yourself), but 1/day isn't going to ruin anything. Except for BBEG fights. Cleric/druid would probably be the only class that isn't overpowered with this race, and those classes are overpowered compared to other classes already. So maybe that's why they balance out at 0LA. It's one of the few races that being a cleric of that race wouldn't be more powerful than a non-caster.
Cartigan 01-28-08, 01:57 PM	Nevermind me.
Count Arioch the 28th 01-29-08, 02:14 PM	Whisper gnomes don't impress me enough to earn a LA +1. The problem is we have very weak LA +1 races that skew the balance out. Tieflings, Aasimar, Genasi Hobgoblins, they are all LA +0, but are given a LA +1 because WotC discourages playing nonstandard races (Being a type of gnome or a type of elf will protect you from having an LA, despite that Grey Elves are more powerful than hobgoblins.)
EvilVegan 01-31-08, 10:21 AM	Whisper gnomes don't impress me enough to earn a LA +1.Actually, me neither. I think they're in that grey zone at about a +.5 - +.8, but I wish they'd either tone them down (to +.4 or less) or beef them up (to +1 or more).The problem is we have very weak LA +1 races that skew the balance out. Tieflings, Aasimar, Genasi Hobgoblins, they are all LA +0, but are given a LA +1 because WotC discourages playing nonstandard races (Being a type of gnome or a type of elf will protect you from having an LA, despite that Grey Elves are more powerful than hobgoblins.)Truth.