Post/Author/DateTime	Post
crimsonwolf 02-23-07, 06:46 PM	my dm wants to make whisper gnoms a +1 la becuse of all there ablistys :s should i try to argue him out of that diea?
3DJutsu 02-23-07, 07:02 PM	His game, his rules, Try to talk him out of it if you want, I can only wish you luck. Though it does seem they might have one. What specific reason is he giving it to them?
pukunui 02-23-07, 07:09 PM	Personally, I think whisper gnomes might need an LA +1 -- the reason being that they just seem too good to be true (although admittedly only regarding one thing), and the DMG clearly indicates that when this is the case, then the race isn't balanced and needs an LA. There was another thread about this recently, and someone posted a comment there talking about how you should only give whisper gnomes an LA if you feel that the lesser planetouched should have an LA as well. Something like that anyway.
fatchuck 02-23-07, 07:22 PM	my dm wants to make whisper gnoms a +1 la becuse of all there ablistys :s should i try to argue him out of that diea? To answer your question, yes, but understand that Rule Zero is the ultimate veto to your arguments. The Whisper Gnomes' bonuses over regular gnomes are a base speed +10, Darkvision 60, +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently, +2 racial bonus to Spot, and some different spell-like abilities and Favored Class than regular gnomes. However, versus regular gnomes, they lose the +2 racial bonus on saves vs. Illusions, +1 DC on any illusion spells your gnome casts, and +2 bonus to Craft: Alchemy checks. Their ability modifiers are also even - +2, +2, -2, -2. Are they more powerful than regular gnomes? Absolutely. Are they worth a LA of +1? IMO, no. The bonuses they receive as Whisper Gnomes do build into their Favored Class, but they're nowhere near as good as other LA+1 races as the Goliath (+4 net ability bonuses), Chaos Gnome (Races of Stone p86, +4 net ability bonuses), Bugbear, Hobgoblin, Fire Hobgoblin, Gnoll, etc. If your DM wants to make it LA+1, tell him to remove one of the -2 ability penalties.
crimsonwolf 02-23-07, 07:30 PM	he siad it was becuse it outdose the hafling as a rouge i told him it was just a more martial rouge instead of using magic uses daggers
pukunui 02-23-07, 07:37 PM	he siad it was becuse it outdose the hafling as a rouge i told him it was just a more martial rouge instead of using magic uses daggers Well, first off, just because the halfling has rogue as favored class doesn't mean that the halfling is the best race for rogues. It's not that hard to find races other than halfling that make good rogues. However, I would say that the whisper gnome outdoes every other race when it comes to being a rogue, and that (to me) is too good to be true, and if it's too good to be true, then it's not balanced.
fatchuck 02-23-07, 07:43 PM	he siad it was becuse it outdose the hafling as a rouge That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a few months. If your DM insists on penalizing the Whisper Gnome with a LA+1, let him. Then become a Goliath and see how he likes a rogue that's adding Darkvision 60, +4 STR, and +2 CON to his sneak attack and melee abilities.
fatchuck 02-23-07, 07:46 PM	However, I would say that the whisper gnome outdoes every other race when it comes to being a rogue, and that (to me) is too good to be true, and if it's too good to be true, then it's not balanced. I'll agree to disagree. Tiefling? Human? Both of those races make better rogues than the whisper gnome. Heck, for LA+1, add the Dark template to either creature and they completely smoke the whisper gnome.
pukunui 02-23-07, 07:48 PM	I'll agree to disagree. Tiefling? Human? Both of those races make better rogues than the whisper gnome. Heck, for LA+1, add the Dark template to either creature and they completely smoke the whisper gnome. I wondered if maybe I was talking out my ass when I said that. I should've just said that it's not that hard to outdo a halfling rogue ...
fatchuck 02-23-07, 07:58 PM	I should've just said that it's not that hard to outdo a halfling rogue ... True that. FWIW, I played a halfling rogue a couple years ago and it was a lot of fun. Saying that whisper gnomes should be LA+1 because they're better than halflings for being a rogue is just, eh, pretty nerfy. :)
3DJutsu 02-23-07, 08:03 PM	I'll agree to disagree. Tiefling? Human? Both of those races make better rogues than the whisper gnome. Heck, for LA+1, add the Dark template to either creature and they completely smoke the whisper gnome. Tee hee, currently playing a Dark Halfling Rogue :D
crimsonwolf 02-23-07, 08:27 PM	where can i find thsi dark template...
Marcotic 02-23-07, 11:16 PM	as a dm i give em' an LA of +1 (or i do a few things no +4 to hide, and or no 30 foot movement speed) (its the same reason i don't let players be goblins) They ARE too perfect at being rogues, and i'd hate to see them as say wizards or a beguilar, if I were you, i would just let your dm have his way, (or ask if he would be willing to work with you on nerfing it a bit) They only need one or 2 changes before they are completely playable at LA 0
3DJutsu 02-23-07, 11:19 PM	where can i find thsi dark template... Tome of Magic
fatchuck 02-24-07, 12:26 AM	as a dm i give em' an LA of +1 (or i do a few things no +4 to hide, and or no 30 foot movement speed) (its the same reason i don't let players be goblins) They ARE too perfect at being rogues, and i'd hate to see them as say wizards or a beguilar, if I were you, i would just let your dm have his way, (or ask if he would be willing to work with you on nerfing it a bit) They only need one or 2 changes before they are completely playable at LA 0 ?? It would be more honest to just ban them from your game since you're essentially killing off the only abilities that make them worthwhile. I mean, look at them, and compare them to the other LA+1 races - they're not even close in combat, and there's nothing unbalanced about it. FWIW, if I had a DM do what you do, I'd skip them and play a Dark human with the LA+1 and gain far more powerful abilities than the whisper gnome brings to the table.
3DJutsu 02-24-07, 12:29 AM	?? It would be more honest to just ban them from your game since you're essentially killing off the only abilities that make them worthwhile. I mean, look at them, and compare them to the other LA+1 races - they're not even close in combat, and there's nothing unbalanced about it. FWIW, if I had a DM do what you do, I'd skip them and play a Dark human with the LA+1 and gain far more powerful abilities than the whisper gnome brings to the table. Dark Strongheart Halfing (Strongheart Halfings'from FRCS, lose the racial bonus to saves but get a bonus feat) :D
Barloch 02-24-07, 01:48 AM	If he wants to add a +1 la ask him for a couple other abilities. I'd say whisper gnomes are just shy of really needthing the +1 LA but not quite there. If it was me I'd say like +2 more dex +2 wis and then I'd say that level adjustment is warrented.
Polaris 02-24-07, 08:00 AM	my dm wants to make whisper gnoms a +1 la becuse of all there ablistys :s should i try to argue him out of that diea? Your DM is right and he's right on several levels. 1. There is rule-zero. If the DM thinks a race is inapprorpiate at a given LA, then it is. In fact when I am the DM, the more a player argues such a point to me, the more and more jaundiced my view of that race (and the player) becomes. 2. There are a couple of races in the original 3.5 Monster Manual that were not very well thought out in terms of character balance and LA. The Whisper Gnome is one. The Grey Elf and Pixie are two others. As LA+0 races, the Grey Elf and Whisper Gnome deserve special mention. The Whisper Gnome is better than any LA+0 core player character race as a rogue. By definition a player-character race is one that is written up specifically in books intended to be used by players. Does this preclude the use of races in the DMG was races used by players? No. In fact that's what the LAs are for, but the DMG makes it very plain that such races require special permission and thus are restricted. The upshot is this: No race not intended to be a PC race (see above) should be absolutely and fundamentally superior at a given character class than it's closest PC racial counterpart. When such a thing happens, then (at least for the specified class) there is zero incentive to take the PC race and you use the "monster" race instead. Assuming the DM is using this balance yardstick (and it seems like he is), then there is no argument you will be able to make to reduce the LA of a Whisper Gnome because as rogues, Whisper Gnomes are better than Rock Gnomes (or any other PC race) hands down. [The same argument applies to Grey Elves and wizards mutatis mutatis when compared with Elves...especially with Races of the Wild.] If you really want to be a whisper gnome rogue, ask the DM for a couple of extra bennies to go with the LA+1. -Polaris
zook1shoe666 02-24-07, 12:16 PM	no +4 to hide, and or no 30 foot movement speed i agree... ask him to remove something to get rid of that +0.5 LA ;)
Marcotic 02-25-07, 12:22 AM	?? It would be more honest to just ban them from your game since you're essentially killing off the only abilities that make them worthwhile. I mean, look at them, and compare them to the other LA+1 races - they're not even close in combat, and there's nothing unbalanced about it. FWIW, if I had a DM do what you do, I'd skip them and play a Dark human with the LA+1 and gain far more powerful abilities than the whisper gnome brings to the table. Then i'd probably simularly dissalow/ nerf that, in short, i don't let people have anything thats too perfect, besides, I don't think that we should be comparing it to LA ones, but LA 0's I think that this race is too good for an LA 0 I know that you will dissargree, but too each his own right? Really i think I would remove them both, (movement 30 and +4 to hide) and maybe replace it with +4 move silently, cuz as written at level one a WG rogue with full ranks in hide has a +12 before factoring dex. It would be too risk free for him to be hiding all the time. (+4 size +4 racial+ 4 ranks)
JD44 02-25-07, 12:28 AM	he siad it was becuse it outdose the hafling as a rouge i told him it was just a more martial rouge instead of using magic uses daggers How good a race is at any class has no bearing on its LA what so ever... He should be comparing it to other +0 and +1 races or use Savage Species level adjustment guide.
Polaris 02-25-07, 12:43 AM	How good a race is at any class has no bearing on its LA what so ever... He should be comparing it to other +0 and +1 races or use Savage Species level adjustment guide. I couldn't disagree more (especially since Savage Species it at best version 3.25 and not fully version 3.5). Furthermore, WOTC doesn't hold to this standard either (or at least Bruce Cordell doesn't). There are races meant (by WOTC) to be chosen by players. You find those in the PHB and PHB supplemental material (XPH, Complete Series under Player Races, etc). All other races are mean to be monster races (which by no means indicates that players can't pick them only that they shouldn't be the first choice). If a monster race is better than any PLAYER race at any given class hands down, then that monster race is too powerful and needs an increased LA. That is precisely why the Blue Goblin (and I got this directly from the designer himself) has LA+1. The same principle applies here. -Polaris
JD44 02-25-07, 01:48 AM	I couldn't disagree more (especially since Savage Species it at best version 3.25 and not fully version 3.5). Furthermore, WOTC doesn't hold to this standard either (or at least Bruce Cordell doesn't). Savage Species level adjustment guide is meant to be used as a guide, not the definitive. It still works fine for 3.5 if used in that manner.
Polaris 02-25-07, 01:57 AM	Savage Species level adjustment guide is meant to be used as a guide, not the definitive. It still works fine for 3.5 if used in that manner. Actually it really doesn't. We as players and WOTC as game designers know a lot more about the DnD system than we did when Savage Species was published. Much of the guidelines for LA have simply been proven wrong since under game experience (such as the anthropormorphic template, half-Ogre, and the value of Strength and mental Attribute bonuses). -Polaris