Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rahf225 04-16-07, 04:54 PM	Maybe its just me but as the title says I'm a little confused about that. Why do they say its equivalent to a lvl 15 PC but a dm can send one out to fight a LVL 8 PC. That seems kinda unfair. I mean if I play an Erinyes and add one level of fighter. That doesn't seem to me like it matches up well against other CR 15 fights. Look at the HP 9d8+1d10 that seems a bit weak for a level 15 character. Any help you people can provide to help alleviate my confusion will be greatly appreciated.
Count Arioch the 28th 04-16-07, 04:58 PM	It's basically because the system is designed to punish people that want to play as soemthing other than the standard PHB races, unless you want to be a weird type of elf.
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 05:07 PM	CR, or challenge rating, is meant to put the one creature, as the sole combat for the day, against a party of 4-6 PCs of the stated level. Not 1 vs 1. Several abilities will have a much more significant impact on long-term survivability of a PC as opposed to a single-combat NPC. Not looking particularly at the erinyes, I'll toss out a few examples. >> Anything with fast healing or regeneration can go through an entire adventure without draining a single one of the cleric's healing spells. In a martial class (fighter, barbarian, monk, etc), they can fight almost indefinitely. >> Natural armor on a PC stacks with any worn armor, the Mage Armor spell, and other forms of protection. The majority of monsters don't wear armor, and few if any wear full plate. >> A flying monster forces PCs to use range weapons or spells. A flying PC becomes immune to any monster without a ranged attack or flight of its own. Does this mean that both the CR and ECL are correct? No, it doesn't. But it is certainly reasonable for a creature to have a very large disparity between CR and ECL.
Radijs 04-16-07, 05:09 PM	Ninja-ed. darn What the good Count says isn't entirely true. Challenge rating(CR) and Level adjustment(LA) are two completely diffrent things. CR is a figure that estimates how much of a threat it would pose when facing off against a classic party of four. How much resources they would have to use etc. While level adjustment is a balancing factor for when the abilities of a monster are constantly present within a party. Aside from the monstrous hit dice the PC also gets quite a load of other abilities that will benefit him/her. Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing. Dodge, Mobility as bonus feats Entangle (Ex) Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height. Spell-Like Abilities At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 19), minor image (DC 17), unholy blight (DC 19). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp) Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. True Seeing (Su) Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). All this put together along with the better racial bonuses to ability scores (+10/+10/+10/+4/+8/10) makes for a PC something vastly more powerful then say, a human. The total increase in Effective Character Level from choosing such a race should balance it out a bit. But its never really accurate.
Kresalak 04-16-07, 05:16 PM	CR, or challenge rating, is meant to put the one creature, as the sole combat for the day, against a party of 4-6 PCs of the stated level. Not 1 vs 1. 15% of all encounters are supposed to be CR=APL+4, which can actually be a mirror match of the PCs. Also, if you halve the number of PCs, you reduce the APL by 2. Halve it again (to 1) and you have APL-4, or the level of the character minus 4. Fighting someone of CR equal to your level in this circumstance is "overwhelming" which means you have a 50/50 shot at it. Another thing that suggests the truth of CR and ECL equivalence is that a PC of level X and of a race with ECL 0 has a CR of X. An Erinyes, though, is level 15 but only CR 8. Several abilities will have a much more significant impact on long-term survivability of a PC as opposed to a single-combat NPC. Not looking particularly at the erinyes, I'll toss out a few examples. >> Anything with fast healing or regeneration can go through an entire adventure without draining a single one of the cleric's healing spells. In a martial class (fighter, barbarian, monk, etc), they can fight almost indefinitely Not really. There's this neat invention called "wands of Lesser Vigor" that negates the need for a Cleric to ever cast healing spells. In Core, we call it a "wand of Cure Light Wounds." >> Natural armor on a PC stacks with any worn armor, the Mage Armor spell, and other forms of protection. The majority of monsters don't wear armor, and few if any wear full plate It doesn't, however, stack with Alter Self, which anyone who actually wants a good AC will use. >> A flying monster forces PCs to use range weapons or spells. A flying PC becomes immune to any monster without a ranged attack or flight of its own. So does climbing a tree. Flight is seriously not a big deal, especially since most adventures take place underground in small, cramped dungeons. And if you really want flight, you can be a Halfing with a Hawk familiar and just cast Reduce Person. Does this mean that both the CR and ECL are correct? No, it doesn't. But it is certainly reasonable for a creature to have a very large disparity between CR and ECL. Not if you intend for the creature to be playable as a PC. Which, incidentally, has never been the intention of the Level Adjustment system.
Rahf225 04-16-07, 05:28 PM	Thanks for clearing that up for me I just couldn't wrap my mind around the obvious. I still think ECL of 15 is a bit high though, I could see 10 or 12 but not 15. I appreciate the fast responses.
Balthanon 04-16-07, 05:35 PM	Not if you intend for the creature to be playable as a PC. Which, incidentally, has never been the intention of the Level Adjustment system. A lot of people say that (and I believe there have been Wizards of the Coast employees among them), but frankly, a company doesn't release entire books in a massive attempt at deceiving its customer base if they want to stay in business long. The system is far from perfect, but it is a reasonable approximation and with tweaking can play fairly.
Jaxgaret 04-16-07, 05:37 PM	Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing. Dodge, Mobility as bonus feats Entangle (Ex) Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height. Spell-Like Abilities At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 19), minor image (DC 17), unholy blight (DC 19). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp) Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. True Seeing (Su) Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). All this put together along with the better racial bonuses to ability scores (+10/+10/+10/+4/+8/10) makes for a PC something vastly more powerful then say, a human. Agreed. Erinyes are actually considered quite good for their ECL. First off, Outsider RHD are very good. Look at those SLAs!! Greater Teleport at will? Summon Monster VII 1/day too. I'll take it. Nice immunities and resistances, plus DR and NA. Really, really good vision. Decent SR. Excellent stat bonuses.
DEMONisbest 04-16-07, 05:53 PM	Agreed. Erinyes are actually considered quite good for their ECL. First off, Outsider RHD are very good. Look at those SLAs!! Greater Teleport at will? I'll take it. Nice immunities and resistances, plus DR and NA. Really, really good vision. Decent SR. Excellent stat bonuses. And the icing on the cake; 1/day summon 1d4 Bearded Devils. Each Bearded Devil can then attempt to summon another Bearded Devil with a 35% success rate. Some days you're only going to get 1 or 2 BDs out of this. Then you can just dismiss them. But if you keep on doing it, every day, summon those BDs, keep on doing it every day... one day you're going to end up with 8 or more Bearded Devils. Then you and your attack squad all Greater Teleport directly to someone who sorely needs a beat down. EDIT: The last tactic is actually something I came up with for Succubi. It's much more effective for them, because they can summon Vrocks on a daily basis, and Vrocks are much more powerful than Bearded Devils. Summoned creatures can not use their summon ability for 1 hour. They automaticaly return where they came from after 1 hour. So your assumption is wrong.
Tommyboy 04-16-07, 05:53 PM	I don't think Summoned creatures can summon other creatures. Edit: Too slow, dang.
MakArios 04-16-07, 05:56 PM	EDIT: Heh... I can`t point the source, but wasn`t there a rule that a summoned (not called) creatures cannot use their own summon ability? Other than that I agree with what was stated above, that Erinyes make a good PC. (And remember Con +10! That`s probably at least 9d8+1d10+50 in OP`s example in the first post).
Jaxgaret 04-16-07, 06:04 PM	Summoned creatures can not use their summon ability for 1 hour. They automaticaly return where they came from after 1 hour. So your assumption is wrong. Woops. You're right. Thanks for the correction! :)
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 06:12 PM	Greater teleport at will and charm monster at will are enough to make them nearly invulnerable over time. Charm a monster repeatedly until you get it right. Succeed and it'll follow you. Fail and you teleport away. A single PC with this ability can raise an army of creatures each with power equal to or greater than his own. Charm a roc or fifty to carry them all around. It's not like you'll lose control later, because the spell lasts several days, so you just spend one day a week renewing them all. (As for the no-suicidal-actions restriction on Charm Monster, it isn't suicidal if the monster knows it only needs to stall/distract its opponent for a few seconds, and doesn't need to attack at all.) Then there's True Seeing, and all those resistances. You know, just in case an opponent tries to ambush you before you can teleport away, charm him, or do any other nasty and potentially permanent things to him. On the other hand, if you encounter one of these guys toting an army around, the encounter CR is calculated for the entire army, not just the creature controlling it.
Kresalak 04-16-07, 06:15 PM	You can do the same thing as a Wizard, only at level 9 (13 if you must have Greater Teleport instead of the regular version).
MerlintheTuna 04-16-07, 06:16 PM	Not really. There's this neat invention called "wands of Lesser Vigor" that negates the need for a Cleric to ever cast healing spells. In Core, we call it a "wand of Cure Light Wounds."You're still expending resources. Not many, but it's still a drain on the party's abilities, whereas fast healing/regeneration aren't.It doesn't, however, stack with Alter Self, which anyone who actually wants a good AC will use.Alter Self is indeed handy, for temporarily turning into another form. It's also handy to actually be another form, and not need to burn money/slots on it.Flight is seriously not a big deal, especially since most adventures take place underground in small, cramped dungeons.Maybe. In bizarro Gygaxia world. The LA/ECL system certainly isn't great, but it's not as without merit as is sometimes implied.
Kresalak 04-16-07, 06:18 PM	1.31 gp/hp healed is really a huge portion of your resources at higher levels. It's so much you actually might notice it if you have to heal a few hundred hp each day. Alter Self is a second level spell that lasts 10/minutes per level.
Morwen 04-16-07, 06:24 PM	Alter Self is a second level spell that lasts 10/minutes per level. It can also be dispelled. Having a high AC naturally is better than spending a spell slot every 3 hours, in my opinion.
MerlintheTuna 04-16-07, 06:26 PM	1.31 gp/hp healed is really a huge portion of your resources at higher levels.Cool. What do you do when you're only at mid-levels? And what kind of proportion of your liquid assets is it? It also does exactly squat mid-combat, as no one is going to waste a few actions and a free hand pulling out a first level wand. Fast healing and regeneration actually contribute to some degree.Alter Self is a second level spell that lasts 10/minutes per level.Yeah. It's nice. I'm not debating that. But it's still not persisted. Edit: And actually, being able to use Alter Self as an Outsider kicks the crap out of using Alter Self as a humanoid, anyway.
sigma999 04-16-07, 08:03 PM	15% of all encounters are supposed to be CR=APL+4, which can actually be a mirror match of the PCs. Also, if you halve the number of PCs, you reduce the APL by 2. Halve it again (to 1) and you have APL-4, or the level of the character minus 4. Fighting someone of CR equal to your level in this circumstance is "overwhelming" which means you have a 50/50 shot at it. Another thing that suggests the truth of CR and ECL equivalence is that a PC of level X and of a race with ECL 0 has a CR of X. An Erinyes, though, is level 15 but only CR 8. So to calculate the power of a "monster" PC with LA compared to a "normal" PC in terms of 1v1 power, one would take the CR and then subtract 4, give or take a single CR point? Is it really that simple? I've seen many threads over the years on this topic and no two are alike, and this is the first mention of such an exact formula. Did you make this yourself based off of observing the CR system?
Jaxgaret 04-16-07, 09:20 PM	So to calculate the power of a "monster" PC with LA compared to a "normal" PC in terms of 1v1 power, one would take the CR and then subtract 4, give or take a single CR point? Is it really that simple? I've seen many threads over the years on this topic and no two are alike, and this is the first mention of such an exact formula. Did you make this yourself based off of observing the CR system? No. As Witch has stated in another thread, a decent rule of thumb is that LA = CR*2 But that is not anywhere close to being a generality. It's just a close approximation of the median. LA can equal CR, it can be less, it can be more than CR*2... there is no formula. It is taken on a case by case basis, due to the large amount of variables involved.
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 09:47 PM	You can do the same thing as a Wizard, only at level 9 (13 if you must have Greater Teleport instead of the regular version). Not to the same extent. A wizard at 15th level has 14 spell slots of 4th level or higher. The spell lasts 15 days, so the wizard can control a maximum of 210 creatures, if none of them ever saves against the spell. A sorcerer could have about 50% more. The Erinyes can cast the spell at will. If it uses the spell once per minute, it can cast 1440 times per day. If it casts once per round, it can cast 86,400 times per day. The spell is cast at 12th level, yet the save DC is actually higher than that of a 15th-level wizard casting the same spell. So while the human spellcaster struggles to keep his 200-300 minions under control, the erinyes spends one day out of twelve (or one out of ten, just in case some stupid adventurers try to stall him) preserving command of an army 400 times as large. [Wow, that feels like a plot hook. A single erinyes has an entire continent charmed, but a few addled souls manage to slip through the cracks and escape the mind controlling spell.]
Kresalak 04-16-07, 10:13 PM	Oh wow, a 4th level spell at will. That'd be impressive if we weren't talking about level 15. Seriously, it's not even mind control, it's just Charm. You know what you can do a lot easier? How about being a 2nd level Beguiler. 16 Charisma, 5 ranks in Diplomacy, 5 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (Nobility), and Sense Motive, for +6 to diplomacy. You have a total of +14 to Diplomacy, and the DC to make someone who is Friendly become Helpful is 20. Now you can make every humanoid you ever encounter Helpful. By the way, someone who is Friendly will take actions like this "Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate." "Serve as your minion" is not one of those.
runestar 04-16-07, 10:24 PM	Various wotc personnel have tackled this issue. Though I am not sure just how much they believe their own explanations. This is addressed in a few areas in the FAQ. Sean Reynolds briefly touched on this issue here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/ecl_vs_cr.html) as well.
Barloch 04-16-07, 10:37 PM	Also everyone has failed to mention thus far a monster doesn't get equipment equal to the standard PC of its CR. An eiyrness has what? A magic sword and some fancy armor maybe right? A level 15 pc has a crap load of magical gear, and a pc eiyrness has all that fancy fun gear.
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 10:45 PM	The PC erinyes also has higher ability scores than a standard erinyes. The creature in the Monster Manual is supposed to be an average member of its race, while a PC is inherently above average.
Squirrelloid 04-16-07, 10:47 PM	The bottom line is Kreselak is 100% right. A CR N monster is supposed to be as good as a level N PC. Actually worse, because CR N = level N *NPC*, and PCs have 2x the wealth of NPCs. Outsider HD are not that good. 2 good saves, 8+int skill points but the skill list is pretty set in stone (whatever the monster entry has ranks in), and some minor abilities like Darkvision which *Dwarves*, *Half-Orcs*, and *Deep Halflings* get as LA +0 races. Its a d8 HD and 3/4 BAB. And having outsider HD, you've accepted that you're not going to be a primary spellcaster. As in ever. So you end up going rogue or fighter or barbarian (or maybe paladin or ranger) - except you've already got N HD of 3/4 BAB, so you'll never be a great meleer either. Note Real Ultimate Power (TM) comes from being a primary spellcaster, so the fact that you have +bajillion to stats might mean you don't feel small in the pants until 17th level. Penalizing them beyond that is just stupid. Just making them take monster HD has already gimped them. Why must you hate people who want to play monsters? Finally, some specifics: Flying is only game-altering pre-5th levelish, by when everyone can buy a flying mount or cast fly or similar. Most flying races are CR 5 or higher. Besides, it would be too bad if we made the orc barbarians carry longbows too, wouldn't it? Please. Fast Healing in the amounts generally available is meaningless. When a character expects to suck down 40hp/round (pretty typical in the 7th-8th level range for meleers), fast healing 2 is not a combat ability - its a between combats ability. Heck, fast healing 8 is not a combat ability. As a DM I've gotten annoyed with Troll regen/fast healing (why god why do some trolls have fast healing instead of regen?), because the single digit numbers of it they get is irrelevant for their CR. A CR 8 troll needs something on the order of Regen 20 to even be relevant in combat, and even that would be marginal. So fast healing on a PC is marginally better than wands of lesser vigor - and both of them are between combat abilities.
Squirrelloid 04-16-07, 10:50 PM	Also everyone has failed to mention thus far a monster doesn't get equipment equal to the standard PC of its CR. An eiyrness has what? A magic sword and some fancy armor maybe right? A level 15 pc has a crap load of magical gear, and a pc eiyrness has all that fancy fun gear. Ah, but an NPC of level N = CR N challenge, and they have half the wealth of a PC. Which mostly translates to level appropriate weapon and armor + some potions for the NPC melee characters in the DMG at most levels. Which is exactly what you'd expect an intelligent monster with standard treasure to have, more or less. (Would use useful magical items available to it). Best case scenario for your position, a CR N monster should be a level N PC with 1/2 treasure, which means you're saying that adding another level 8 NPC's worth of gear (for 2x NPC = PC wealth) is equal to +7 LA. And that's just crazy talk.
Squirrelloid 04-16-07, 10:52 PM	The PC erinyes also has higher ability scores than a standard erinyes. The creature in the Monster Manual is supposed to be an average member of its race, while a PC is inherently above average. Well, on the one hand you could subtract elite array to figure out the stat mods. But even if you don't, those stat pumps are part of their *class features* for their otherwise fairly crappy 'outsider class' as represented by their racial HD.
Jaxgaret 04-16-07, 10:59 PM	Penalizing them beyond that is just stupid. Just making them take monster HD has already gimped them. Why must you hate people who want to play monsters? It is not I that decided this, but WotC. There is nothing wrong with houseruling monsters in your own games. But, here on the boards, we have to work with RAW as a basis, or there is no way that everyone will be on the same page. We can branch off from there, of course, and make modifications. But, under the current ruleset, an Erinyes is an ECL15 PC.
Kresalak 04-16-07, 11:01 PM	Outsider HD actually have all good saves and full BAB, but that's pretty much the same thing as no good saves and 1/2 BAB if you only have 9 of them at level 15.
YabaTheWhat 04-16-07, 11:06 PM	By the way, someone who is Friendly will take actions like this "Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate." "Serve as your minion" is not one of those. I didn't say they were mindless. If the entire population of a continent thinks of you as their benevolent leader, who innoculates them all every ten days against the dreaded Conocimiento plague, odds are pretty good that they'll do whatever you ask of them... especially considering they'll far outnumber and most likely overpower any potential threat to you, their beloved benefactor. If you want total control, you'd have to use a spell from the Dominate family. A vampire (LA as base creature +8) could potentially carry out the same tactic, though it could only control humanoids and its own spawn.
Squirrelloid 04-16-07, 11:06 PM	Outsider HD actually have all good saves and full BAB, but that's pretty much the same thing as no good saves and 1/2 BAB if you only have 9 of them at level 15. Whoops, you're right... what am I thinking of? Oh well, that means they *can* actually fill the melee role, which is about the only thing they can do well at that point. It is not I that decided this, but WotC. There is nothing wrong with houseruling monsters in your own games. But, here on the boards, we have to work with RAW as a basis, or there is no way that everyone will be on the same page. We can branch off from there, of course, and make modifications. But, under the current ruleset, an Erinyes is an ECL15 PC. If we were answering a rules question I'd agree. But the OP is perfectly familiar with what the rules say. He wants to know why. I'm not answering a rules question, i'm answering a game theory question. The answer is the designers hate monsters as PCs. I'm not just extrapolating this based on the rules either (though you could do so), they *actually said it*. (See the Savage Species designer interviews).
Argaud 04-16-07, 11:07 PM	Maybe its just me but as the title says I'm a little confused about that. Why do they say its equivalent to a lvl 15 PC but a dm can send one out to fight a LVL 8 PC. That seems kinda unfair. I mean if I play an Erinyes and add one level of fighter. That doesn't seem to me like it matches up well against other CR 15 fights. Look at the HP 9d8+1d10 that seems a bit weak for a level 15 character. Any help you people can provide to help alleviate my confusion will be greatly appreciated. Well, PC Erinyes has higher stats than the NPC and PC gear on top of that, so her hit points will be way higher, and so will be the DC for her spells. However: The Erinyes is considered a brutal monster for CR8, a true and proven party killer. Just like with most dragons, she is quite under-CR-ed and she is generally considered closer to CR10 than to CR8. Moreover the ECL of many monsters is incorrectly calculated. Mostly WotC just tosses things like "fly adds a +2 to the ECL" without considering the final level that will be the PC critter. At level 15 flight is common. Everybody flies, it is not even expensive, and it is in no way worth +2 to ECL. So, Rahf225, if ECL 15 does not work for you, just use a lower LA. Consider what the Erinyes can do compared to what a PC in your game can do and adjust the LA. If your game allows Polymorph Any Object (perhaps the most powerful spell a level 8 character can cast) for instance, then the Erinyes high abilities and excellent natural armor aren't as impressive. True, she still gets +8 Wis and +10 Cha, and she can't be dispelled, but how many times will Dispel Magic be an issue in the course of an adventure? And PAO lasts for days! More examples: The slas never get old. Constant True Sight is great. The outsider type is awesome, giving lots of skill points, all good saves and full bab. The Erinyes never sleeps, does not need food either. The DR is okay - but 5 points is very little at level 15. So, see how she works and adjust as you feel right :)
Squirrelloid 04-16-07, 11:08 PM	I didn't say they were mindless. If the entire population of a continent thinks of you as their benevolent leader, who innoculates them all every ten days against the dreaded Conocimiento plague, odds are pretty good that they'll do whatever you ask of them... especially considering they'll far outnumber and most likely overpower any potential threat to you, their beloved benefactor. If you want total control, you'd have to use a spell from the Dominate family. You missed the point that a level 2 Beguiler can achieve the same thing, with the end result being *nonmagical*?
runestar 04-16-07, 11:08 PM	Treasure:Standard, plus rope and +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) Actually, erinyes get standard treasure for their cr, which works out to be 3400gp worth of eq for a cr8, in addition to their +1 flaming bow. Not much, but this still does allow for a mithril chain shirt and maybe a ring of prot, amulet of NA or a +1 longsword.:)
Jaxgaret 04-16-07, 11:12 PM	If we were answering a rules question I'd agree. But the OP is perfectly familiar with what the rules say. He wants to know why. I'm not answering a rules question, i'm answering a game theory question. The answer is the designers hate monsters as PCs. I'm not just extrapolating this based on the rules either (though you could do so), they *actually said it*. (See the Savage Species designer interviews). Yes, I know that they said it, I have informed other people of that very point before, and said essentially the same here. They had their reasons - if monsters-as-PCs were as powerful as LA+0 races, there would be no shortage of monster menagerie PC parties. Which WotC decided wasn't to their liking, for whatever reason, I am not going to get into that can of worms right now. I'm not arguing with you, not really anyway. I do disagree with your assertion that that is what the OP was asking; it seems to me that they wanted to know why CR != ECL, not why the ECL was so much higher than the CR. I know you're not going to claim that an Erinyes should start as an ECL8 PC, Squirreloid.
Argaud 04-16-07, 11:12 PM	Actually, erinyes get standard treasure for their cr, which works out to be 3400gp worth of eq for a cr8, in addition to their +1 flaming bow. Not much, but this still does allow for a mithril chain shirt and maybe a ring of prot, amulet of NA or a +1 longsword.:) I am afraid not. Treasure is randomly determined, the Erinyes can't pick what she wants and can't sell the treasure to purchase stuff she can't use.
runestar 04-16-07, 11:27 PM	I am afraid not. Treasure is randomly determined, the Erinyes can't pick what she wants and can't sell the treasure to purchase stuff she can't use. Actually, the DMG does allow you to pick the treasure you want, rather than simply generating them randomly. Which is what I usually do, to better customize the monsters I use. On a side note, what then do you think is a decent LA for the erinyes to have? I estimate around LA+4?
Squirrelloid 04-16-07, 11:47 PM	I am afraid not. Treasure is randomly determined, the Erinyes can't pick what she wants and can't sell the treasure to purchase stuff she can't use. Randomly generating treasure is an option. The DMG also tells you what the average value of treasure a monster carries is, and the DM can choose treasure appropriate for the monster (which, for an intelligent monster, is fairly likely that it would carry useful treasure). I'll note that the +1 flaming longbow is worth ~8k, and the rope is a 16th CL level 1 spell effect that is permanently in effect, which works out to 1x16x2000gp = 32000gp item. That's 43.5k approximate wealth, which is pretty close to a 10th level PCs wealth. (Note that as those two items are claimable as treasure, I'd rule a PC Erinyes doesn't start with them unless she buys them with her available wealth). I know you're not going to claim that an Erinyes should start as an ECL8 PC, Squirreloid. You're right, I'm going to claim it *should* start as a level 9 PC. It has 9 HD. Now, if we subtract Elite Array from its stats, that gives us stat mods of: +6 to 2 physical stats and +8 to the third, +6 int, +8 wis, +8 cha. Those are also its stats with 9HD, so it doesn't get 2 level pumps. (Alternately, call it +6 to all physical stats and give them their two level pumps - whatever). It has 9 Outsider HD which give it +9 BAB, 8 + 8d8 HD (+con mod x9), +6.5 base saves to all saves, 8+int skill points (Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Hide, Knowledge (Any), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Use Rope in class) Outsider Traits: Darkvision, can't be resurrected/raised/etc..., simple and martial weapon proficiencies, doesn't need to sleep or eat, (no armor or shield proficiencies). (Note that Outsider is not that hard to get with LA+0 versions of Tiefling and Aasimar floating around). Other abilities: Fly 50' (good), Summon Devil, DR 5/good, Imm Fire + Pois, Res Acid 10, Res Cold 10, See in Darkness, SR = 11+HD, Telepathy 100', +8NA, true seeing, SP-likes (at will): greater teleport (self+50lbs), charm monster, minor image, unholy blight. Analysis: Flight at 9th level is nothing to write home about. Ho-hum. Summon Devil... ha ha. ha. ha. 50% chance, and the devils don't scale with level. At 9th they're pretty mediocre - the party summoner could do as well or better. DR 5/good isn't bad, but its certainly level appropriate for 9th level - especially as 9 outsider HD means you're probably going to be a melee character, and they're only d8 HD. Imm Fire and Poison sounds impressive, but it really isn't. The druid is already immune to poison at this level, so its certainly level appropriate. Immunity to fire isn't really that game-breaking, since most damage will be weapon damage anyway, especially since everything reasonably intelligent will *know she's an erinyes* and therefore *know she's immune to fire*, so no one will cast fire spells at her. I mean, come on, enemy casters aren't stupid. Resistance 10 to Acid and Cold - meh, not even level appropriate at these levels. See in darkness... this doesn't come up very often unless the party plays for it specifically. As the Erinyes doesn't cast darkness herself, she'll need to depend on the party cleric or wizard to do it for her, and they have better things to be doing. Also note it isn't actually that impressive - darkness is a 2nd level spell that's just another fancy way to get concealment, and even deeper darkness shouldn't be too scary for CR9+ monsters. Level appropriate, and becoming less effective over time. SR 11+HD is reasonable. Remember most enemy spellcasters will be higher level than the party, meaning this translates into ~30% chance that a spell fizzles against her, assuming the enemy doesn't have spell penetration and/or Gr. Sp. Penetration, and only if it allows SR. (And we all know wizards have lots of options that don't do that). Telepathy 100' doesn't actually let you detect things. Its just speak with anything. This is a flavor ability. +8NA. Considering the tank the Erinyes has to compare herself to is the Druid, this doesn't bother me at all. However, also remember the Erinyes can't wear more than light armor and still fly, so this is a necessary boost to her AC. And she's not wearing *any* armor until level 10 anyway, when she gets a PC class level that gives her armor proficiencies. true seeing is the most questionable ability there, but the cleric can already cast it at this point, and it only helps her see through illusions. (She can tell her buddies, but they have to interact with the illusion to get the save - they'll just get +4 because she told them). So i'm not especially worried - its not like the Erinyes is a full spellcaster or something... Spell-likes: Greater Teleport (self +50lbs) isn't actually *that* useful, and the wizard already has Teleport, which is actually more useful because he can transport the whole party. Charm Monster was good 2 levels ago. Now its mildly ho-hum, and the Erinyes DC is comparable to her compatriots. (its listed as DC19, which is easy for a 9th level wizard.) A player maximizing Charm Monster would have a slight edge, but the character is pretty specialized in terms of spell offense, so being better than the generalized wizard is *perfectly acceptable*. Minor Image at will is actually pretty awesome, but the wizard basically has that anyway because its a *level 2 spell*. Unholy Blight? meh? Yeah, looks less effective overall than a 9th level wizard or Druid, but not enough so that it will feel too short in the pants. Gets my stamp of approval. (I'd probably go Paladin, just because I'm perverse like that, and its a L/G [Lawful] [Evil] character - Succubus is better though for the L/G [Chaotic] [Evil] mojo, because counting as all 4 end-points on the alignment scale at the same time is awesome.)
Jaxgaret 04-17-07, 12:17 AM	Now, if we subtract Elite Array from its stats, that gives us stat mods of: +6 to 2 physical stats and +8 to the third, +6 int, +8 wis, +8 cha. Those are also its stats with 9HD, so it doesn't get 2 level pumps. (Alternately, call it +6 to all physical stats and give them their two level pumps - whatever). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you have to subtract the elite array from the Erinyes' stats. That would leave them at +10 to all physicals, and +4 +8 +10 to Int Wis Cha. Also, you are forgetting about the fact that there are always ways to bend the rules. How about an Ur-Priest Erinyes. Or a Bard1/Wizard5/SublimeChord. It wouldn't get to 9th level spells until 24th level using your LA+0 Erinyes, but it's still a viable spellcaster build if you're playing into Epic. I know two examples don't really change anything, but the exploits are there.
Kresalak 04-17-07, 12:22 AM	Squirrelloid is discussing a method of making the Erinyes a worthwhile character choice, not the actualy method of using an Erinyes by the rules. An Erinyes Ur-Priest is seriously not worthwhile. You get 1st level spells at level 10, a single 9th level spell at level 18, provided you have at least 28 Wisdom (1 level after the Cleric gets like 3 of them), and your caster level will never exceed 11. That's seriously not good at any level.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 12:26 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you have to subtract the elite array from the Erinyes' stats. That would leave them at +10 to all physicals, and +4 +8 +10 to Int Wis Cha. NPCs use Elite Array, so its reasonable to assume that the stats for monsters are balanced if you take them as bonuses added to elite array (assuming they are CRed near appropriately). Also, you are forgetting about the fact that there are always ways to bend the rules. How about an Ur-Priest Erinyes. Or a Bard1/Wizard5/SublimeChord. It wouldn't get to 9th level spells until 24th level using your LA+0 Erinyes, but it's still a viable spellcaster build if you're playing into Epic. I know two examples don't really change anything, but the exploits are there. .... If you don't get 9th level spells until *level 24* (at which point in time the PC wizard has been abusing the Epic Spellcasting rules for 3 levels), you can't play the game. Your casting is *worse than your cohort*. Yes, if you took Leadership as an Erinyes, and grabbed a wizard cohort, your cohort would have better spellcasting than you. In fact, if he took leadership, his cohort would cast better than you. If your cohort's cohort took leadership, his cohort would cast better than you. You are literally 7 levels behind on casting - If you think that's level-appropriate you're crazy. Your spellcasting just doesn't matter. At all. Trying to turn a 9 racial HD creature into a viable spellcaster is like asking to be hit in the face, repeatedly, with a salted herring. Its going to hurt no matter what you do, and it'll even rub salt in the wounds for you.
Jaxgaret 04-17-07, 12:37 AM	If you don't get 9th level spells until *level 24* (at which point in time the PC wizard has been abusing the Epic Spellcasting rules for 3 levels), you can't play the game. Your casting is *worse than your cohort*. Yes, if you took Leadership as an Erinyes, and grabbed a wizard cohort, your cohort would have better spellcasting than you. In fact, if he took leadership, his cohort would cast better than you. If your cohort's cohort took leadership, his cohort would cast better than you. You are literally 7 levels behind on casting - If you think that's level-appropriate you're crazy. Your spellcasting just doesn't matter. At all. Trying to turn a 9 racial HD creature into a viable spellcaster is like asking to be hit in the face, repeatedly, with a salted herring. Its going to hurt no matter what you do, and it'll even rub salt in the wounds for you. Yeah, you're probably right. I'm just trying to wrap my head around the fact that this monster seems to be LAed out of existence by your reckoning, and seems fine at ECL15 by other people's. It's all rather confusing. I would have to play one to see, really.
Jaxgaret 04-17-07, 12:46 AM	Squirrelloid is discussing a method of making the Erinyes a worthwhile character choice, not the actualy method of using an Erinyes by the rules. An Erinyes Ur-Priest is seriously not worthwhile. You get 1st level spells at level 10, a single 9th level spell at level 18, provided you have at least 28 Wisdom (1 level after the Cleric gets like 3 of them), and your caster level will never exceed 11. That's seriously not good at any level. There's always Practiced Spellcaster to bump CL up to 15. And they'll have 3 9th level spells by 19th level. An Erinyes easily blows by 36 Wisdom. 16 + 8 racial + 6 item + 5 tome + 1 level bump = 36 Wisdom, and that's not even with an 18 in the stat or all of its level bumps. But you're right, the low CL is a killer. Perhaps there is another way around it? And it's not like all they have at ECL10 is 1st-level spells. They also have all of the Erinyes abilities and statistics and RHD which should be roughly equivalent to any other 9th-level PC, using Squirelloid's LA+0 version.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 12:56 AM	There's always Practiced Spellcaster to bump CL up to 15. And they'll have 3 9th level spells by 19th level. An Erinyes easily blows by 36 Wisdom. 16 + 8 racial + 6 item + 5 tome + 1 level bump = 36 Wisdom, and that's not even with an 18 in the stat or all of its level bumps. But you're right, the low CL is a killer. Perhaps there is another way around it? What you're forgetting is that at 17th level of wizard casting, wizards get the following ability: Real Ultimate Power (TM) (sp): The game ends. You can easily defeat opponents with double your APL's CR by yourself. You have your own personal demi-plane where a full day passes for each round on the prime material plane. You are never surprised, and can use celerity to teleport or planeshift away as needed, even before your first action. You layer the protections on so thick you're the battleship of medieval warfare. During a timestop you apply delayed spell effects such that nothing will be spared, and your opponents failing but one save is sufficient to declare 'I r0xx0r j00 sux0r!' or 'Pwnt!' You have won D+D. Congratulations.
Radijs 04-17-07, 03:23 AM	I think that you've been misinformed Squirrelloid about NPC's and their stat generation. Monsters in the MM's don't per default use the elite array. From the SRD: Ability Score Arrays Monsters are assumed to have completely average (or standard) ability scores—a 10 or an 11 in each ability, as modified by their racial bonuses. However, improved monsters are individuals and often have better than normal ability scores, and usually make use of either the elite array or the nonelite array of ability scores. Monsters who improve by adding a template, and monsters who improve by increasing their Hit Dice, may use any of the three arrays (standard, nonelite, or elite). Any monster unique enough to be improved could easily be considered elite. Clicky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) So this leaves them again with +10 to all physical ability scores and diffrent bonuses to the mental scores. This is where the Level Adjustment starts. If you're only going to give it outsider HD, no LA. then the PC will have a huge bonus practically for free. With outsider HD granting tonns of skill points. full BAB and three good saves. And I think you're underestimating at least one SLA the creature has. Unholy blight is the equivalent of a 4th level spell. Sure it comes at level 9 instead of level 7 but its still a force to be reckoned with unless every monster you send against them is evil-aligned.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-17-07, 03:41 AM	What you're forgetting is that at 17th level of wizard casting, wizards get the following ability: Real Ultimate Power (TM) (sp): The game ends. You can easily defeat opponents with double your APL's CR by yourself. You have your own personal demi-plane where a full day passes for each round on the prime material plane. You are never surprised, and can use celerity to teleport or planeshift away as needed, even before your first action. You layer the protections on so thick you're the battleship of medieval warfare. During a timestop you apply delayed spell effects such that nothing will be spared, and your opponents failing but one save is sufficient to declare 'I r0xx0r j00 sux0r!' or 'Pwnt!' You have won D+D. Congratulations. The old wizard trump card... or more specifically the broken fallacy: because X is broken, it's okay for Y to be broken too. What you're forgetting is that you can do that much earlier. You can make Pun Pun at something like 5th level if I remember correctly. Yes, you can bring in the "I win D&D" crap. But that's not even a remotely valid argument, because once you blow up the world, you no longer care about balance, because you're no longer actually playing D&D anymore. In fact, every game that goes to that high level has to make the base assumption that those loopholes either are being ignored or have been fixed, quite simply because otherwise there is no game. There is no subset of D&D games that allow that sort of thing, because once you actually allow that crap, you can't play D&D anymore. You've hit a divide by zero and D&D falls apart. At that point, balance doesn't exist. A 20th level commoner is equal to a 20th level wizard if you can't play the game anymore. On the topic of ECL/LA in general. LA is a flawed system for PCs. The idea of giving up levels for some kind of power that exists outside the level system is a bad concept as far as PCs are concerned. It can never work. It's probably not even a good system for monsters, but we can live with monsters not having very concrete systems because they're entirely arbitrary. The whole point of a level based system is that two characters of equal level are supposed to be equivalent. Trying to create some funky add-on to the system where your goal is to make a character of lower level equivalent to a higher level one is screwy. When you're doing that, you really need to even rethink the design goals. Yes, the LA system totally sucks. No, there's no great fix for it. You're better off starting making a human PC then giving them minor flavor abilities and substitutions to get the desired effect. Instead of having a giant with a huge strength mod, take a belt of giant strength and have it be an innate character ability, then just say the belt slot doesn't do anything and build the character as a fighter. Spend a few feats on being bigger and then call it a night. The less you open the monster manual the better. You're much better off trying to approximate and concept of what you want to be, rather than trying to duplicate the entire MM entry.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-17-07, 03:49 AM	And I think you're underestimating at least one SLA the creature has. Unholy blight is the equivalent of a 4th level spell. Sure it comes at level 9 instead of level 7 but its still a force to be reckoned with unless every monster you send against them is evil-aligned. Unholy blight is garbage. About it's only use is an alignment detector, because it lets you detect evil people in a group. Aside from that, the spell is terrible. A 7th level cleric throwing an unholy blight is unlikely to even take down a good aligned 2nd level fighter, assuming the fighter fails the save. Yeah, good luck breaking the game with infinite unholy blights.
D-Dus 04-17-07, 04:46 AM	You're right, I'm going to claim it *should* start as a level 9 PC. It has 9 HD. ..... to save space I'm not going to quote everything you said about each ability, I'll sumarize what you said in my own comment ..... Yeah, looks less effective overall than a 9th level wizard or Druid, but not enough so that it will feel too short in the pants. Gets my stamp of approval. (I'd probably go Paladin, just because I'm perverse like that, and its a L/G [Lawful] [Evil] character - Succubus is better though for the L/G [Chaotic] [Evil] mojo, because counting as all 4 end-points on the alignment scale at the same time is awesome.) Wait, what??? :eek: First of all this race gets + to all stats through the roof. Í haven't seen you explain how an +6+6+8+6+8+8 to stats would NOT require a LA. You substract the elite array, but these bonuses still apply to the stats the player rolled (or the elite array again if the group uses that method). Even if this PC gets no starting equipment, he would still have way higher stats then any player can afford with magic items and such at level 9. Secondly: at 9 HD, this PC would get BAB equal to a fighter, saves equal to a monk and skill points equal to a rogue.... and 'only' a d8 HD is still equal or better to most classes. Your closing statement is that it looks less effective then a druid or wizard.... I agree it gets (way) less magical abilities then a wizard or druid, but it gets higher stats, BAB, saves, HD and skillpoints then both these classes! (Actually HD is equal to druid, but whatever). What I'm trying to say here is: your argument is flawed because of one simple reason: you're comparing each of this races features with a different class of the same level. High BAB? Oh, so does a fighter. High saves? Oh, so does a monk. High Skillpoints? Oh, so does a rogue. Spell-like abilities? But a wizard can do better! Superhigh stats? But.... ehm... wait, you still didn't explain that one.... Try to compare this 9 HD race with 1 class on all fronts and then see if it's balanced as a 9 lvl PC..... You yourself opted playing a Paladin, I dare you to compare this 9 HD race with a level 9 Paladin (with a standard LA+0 race, you can even take lesser aasimar if you want) and then tell me it's not far far far better.... -end rant-
Argaud 04-17-07, 06:22 AM	Actually, the DMG does allow you to pick the treasure you want, rather than simply generating them randomly. Which is what I usually do, to better customize the monsters I use. Well, you can do that, but generally giving monster useful gear will lead to a sharp increase of CR due to that then the "Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness." As a PC, for instance, an Erinyes is CR8 (actually probably 9 or 10) + 1 elite + 2 (gear that makes her far more dangerous) would make her CR~11. On a side note, what then do you think is a decent LA for the erinyes to have? I estimate around LA+4? Good question. Lets she what she really has over a mid-high LA+0 character... Outsider type: this makes her immune to ‘person’ spells like Charm Person or Hold Person. This is worth something, but after level 10 those spells aren’t used much against PCs. Outsider HD: Those are nice. Full bab, all good saves, martial weapons, lots of skills and a good skill list, and decent hit points (although not great). This is as good as most PC level HD. Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good). Look, a LA+0 race, the Raptoran, have flight at level 12 for free. Aasimar, thieflings and kobolds can get it for 2 feats at level 3 or so. Flight is nice at low level, but at mid-high level everybody can afford flying when it counts and it will be speed 60 (good). So this winged flight (you can be tripped and you will crash if you are – with magical flight you can’t) it is worth very little. +8 natural armor. This is pretty good, since AC never gets old. It won’t protect the character from touch attacks, but touch attacks are like 10% of all attacks, so this is worth some LA. But how much depends if the game has taken Polymorph spells out of the equation as WotC recommends. LA +1 if Polymorph is out, otherwise far less. Entangle (Ex): Animate Rope is a first level spell. The weird thing is this ability is Extraordinary, so it will work even in AMF. That is pretty cool. But taking the cool factor away, how many times will a level 12+ character use this? How interesting is to inflict an ‘entangled’ effect on a CR12+ monster? Yeah, not worth much. Spell-like abilities: At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster, minor image, unholy blight. Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Ah... some goo stuff. Yes, Greater Teleport is a life saber, not to mention damn useful outside fights. Charm Monster (plus diplomacy and Ch +10) will net the character some nice minions and will ensure almost everybody she meets is very agreeable to help her. Minor Image has many uses. Unholy Blight... okay, it does not hurt. Now, these are worth a LA+1. Summon Devil: 50% chance of doing nothing, 50% chance of calling 2d10 lemures (CR 1) or 1d4 bearded devils (CR 5). Eh? Might be useful some time, but even taking away the RP considerations (so the character now owes one to the summoned critters) the monsters aren’t going to be of much help. Plus it is unreliable in extreme (50% chance... and the character can’t control how many critters will come). Damage reduction 5/good: DR5/theydon’thaveit is basically +5 Natural Armor. Nothing more, nothing less. All high-level meleers have Power Attack, so DR directly translates into AC. Actually, when fighting enemies with two-handed weapons, DR is worse than AC. DR5 directly raises the character Natural Armor from 8 to 13, which means... it doesn’t really counts much for LA. Darkvision 60’: almost everybody has this. Hell, it is not worth anything considering she can see in the darkness all the time. Immunity to fire: Nice to have, sure. But Protection form Energy is a level 3 spell. The Erinyes has this all the time, yes, but she also has Charm Monster all the time. So it is like having another sla, of lower level than the slas she already has, which means LA shouldn’t increase. Immunity to poison: Nice too. But all PCs are immune to poison since level 11, when the cleric started casting Heroes Feast every morning. The Erinyes gets it for free and it can’t be dispelled, but it is not worth –that- much either. Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10: Hmm, cool to have, nothing much at mid-high level, though. See in Darkness and True Seeing (Su): This is actually much, much better than darkvision and might be worth some LA. Not a full point, though. Maybe .25? Spell Resistance 20. This is good at level 10. This helps a bit, sometimes, at level 15. But it will get old soon because it does not scale by level. The LA it might be worth is a bit odd, since it will be worth less as the PC gets levels. Telepathy 100’. This is basically the Tongues/Speak with Animals for free. At which point you can apply what I said about immunity to fire. Abilities: Str +10, Dex +10, Con +10, Int +4, Wis +8, Cha+10. Very nice. How much those are worth depends on how difficult is for a PC to get these modifiers. If PAO is available in the game, these aren’t that hot, not after level 15. So the LA would be about +1, maybe 1.5, without Polymorph, about half that with PAO in the game. Feats: Dodge and Mobility for free. Okay. Dodge is +1 to AC vs. 1 enemy each round. Apply what I said to DR here. Mobility is a feat that applies only sometimes, given to a critter that can teleport at will. So... meh. LA+7? I think not! A Succubus gets more useful stuff and they are LA+6. So yeah, LA+4 or +5 sounds more fair to me.
runestar 04-17-07, 09:53 AM	Well, you can do that, but generally giving monster useful gear will lead to a sharp increase of CR due to that then the "Monster possesses special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness." Is that really necessary? I have been contemplating day and night if a creature's cr already includes any possible benefits from eq. For example, does an erinyes's cr8 already assume the fact that you will use the 3400gp she gets to outfit her properly? :confused:
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 10:02 AM	Is that really necessary? I have been contemplating day and night if a creature's cr already includes any possible benefits from eq. For example, does an erinyes's cr8 already assume the fact that you will use the 3400gp she gets to outfit her properly? :confused: Re: my earlier post - the Erinye's equipment has mostly been chosen for her! She has an 8k magic bow and a 32k magic rope! 3.4k is a drop in the bucket.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 10:17 AM	Wait, what??? :eek: First of all this race gets + to all stats through the roof. Í haven't seen you explain how an +6+6+8+6+8+8 to stats would NOT require a LA. You substract the elite array, but these bonuses still apply to the stats the player rolled (or the elite array again if the group uses that method). Even if this PC gets no starting equipment, he would still have way higher stats then any player can afford with magic items and such at level 9. Secondly: at 9 HD, this PC would get BAB equal to a fighter, saves equal to a monk and skill points equal to a rogue.... and 'only' a d8 HD is still equal or better to most classes. Outsider HD are not as good as class levels. Its really that simple. Compare to rogue levels - same number of skill points, but you have a worse skill list (as your skill list is a subset of the rogue skill list, which means they get options you don't - including some amazing skills like Tumble and UMD). You're beating the rogue by 1hp/HD on average. You've got the rogue beat one 2 saves. But they get +5d6 SA, Trapfinding, etc... for those 9HD and you get nothing. Furthermore, they have a class they've advanced to level 9 that at level 10 gets a special ability which could be something awesome like take 10 all the time on multiple skills. And you've basically lost the option to seriously pursue all the full casting classes, because you will never do anything level appropriate if you do so. Your closing statement is that it looks less effective then a druid or wizard.... I agree it gets (way) less magical abilities then a wizard or druid, but it gets higher stats, BAB, saves, HD and skillpoints then both these classes! (Actually HD is equal to druid, but whatever). And spellcasting >> everything else. Furthermore, a Cleric has the same HD, the same BAB (with Divine Power), and can end up cheesing a lot of its stats (Divine Power, Righteous Might, Aspect of the Deity tree, etc...) to not so far off. Oh no, its down on skill points... it has *full spellcasting*. Cry me a river. Similarly, the Druid only has 3/4 BAB, but with IUS gets all its natural attacks (around level 9 that's 4 or 5 from your choice of a raptor (the dinosaur) or cat form) + iterative 'unarmed strikes'. That means its taking more than twice as many attacks as you are, so the marginally reduced BAB (2 fewer) doesn't even matter. And since the druid dumped dex and str, its stats are looking remarkably like the erinyes anyway. The wizard had lower stats until he polymorphed into a *War Troll*. At which point he laughs at the Erinyes, then offers her a polymorph. What I'm trying to say here is: your argument is flawed because of one simple reason: you're comparing each of this races features with a different class of the same level. High BAB? Oh, so does a fighter. High saves? Oh, so does a monk. High Skillpoints? Oh, so does a rogue. Spell-like abilities? But a wizard can do better! Superhigh stats? But.... ehm... wait, you still didn't explain that one.... newsflash, at 10th level the fighter no longer competes (Fighter is a 2 level class, you PrC and multi-class like mad, and you still end up far enough the primary spellcasters that your job becomes 'carry the treasure'). The relevant balance metric is wizard, druid, and cleric. Anything that cannot reasonably compete with them isn't going to be fun to play. The erinyes isn't as good *overall* as a wizard, as a druid, or as a cleric, but it is competitive enough that you can still play the game. Try to compare this 9 HD race with 1 class on all fronts and then see if it's balanced as a 9 lvl PC..... You yourself opted playing a Paladin, I dare you to compare this 9 HD race with a level 9 Paladin (with a standard LA+0 race, you can even take lesser aasimar if you want) and then tell me it's not far far far better.... -end rant- Paladin is a 4 level class... (5 if you're headed for Supermount!). Supermount! at 9th level totally schools the Erinyes. Its not even funny. (And that's the purest 9th level 'Paladin' build I can imagine anyone ever playing). Flying mount of charging doom, conveniently sized for dungeon use as well.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 10:26 AM	I think that you've been misinformed Squirrelloid about NPC's and their stat generation. Monsters in the MM's don't per default use the elite array. From the SRD: Clicky (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) So this leaves them again with +10 to all physical ability scores and diffrent bonuses to the mental scores. This is where the Level Adjustment starts. If you're only going to give it outsider HD, no LA. then the PC will have a huge bonus practically for free. With outsider HD granting tonns of skill points. full BAB and three good saves. Sigh... this is obviously not a 'rules-based' way of doing things... the rules clearly state they get +7LA and are forced to be totally craptastic in a game that's one level away from ending. (min level 16, game ends at 17th level). Theory: NPC level N = CR N monster. NPC at level N has elite array as its stat base (regardless of what method of stat generation the players used). Therefore, if we want to make monster PCs, we should remove elite array to see what its stat mods should be, just like we can do with NPCs. Because in theory those stat mods are uniquely balanced (because CR N = level N NPC). (And I'm even advocating increasing the starting level of the Erinyes over its CR because it has more HD than CR - that's sort of like LA, except its not a sucky mechanic that totally hoses characters). Those stat mods trade off against having strictly worse abilities overall than a classed character receives from his class levels. (at least true for most classes: spellcasters, rogues, even rangers, barbarians, and at low levels paladin. Fighter is a 2 level class, and over those 2 levels it gets better abilities per HD than a monster does). And I think you're underestimating at least one SLA the creature has. Unholy blight is the equivalent of a 4th level spell. Sure it comes at level 9 instead of level 7 but its still a force to be reckoned with unless every monster you send against them is evil-aligned. A 4th level spell that *no one ever casts* because its craptastic. SLAs only count if they're useful - minor image rates higher than that nonsense. Actually, minor image at will rates higher than charm monster at will... minor image is amazing. Charm monster is good, but far less good! (Remember, illusions aren't mind-affecting, and a mindless creature has no reason to ever interact with it - minor image hoses golems, zombies, skeletons, and any other mindless creature. Make an illusionary wall around it and it stops moving. Pocket free xp and laugh).
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 10:51 AM	The old wizard trump card... or more specifically the broken fallacy: because X is broken, it's okay for Y to be broken too. What you're forgetting is that you can do that much earlier. You can make Pun Pun at something like 5th level if I remember correctly. Even ignoring crap like pun-pun, trying to keep playing the game after 17th level is just stupid. The wizard has to remove about half of the core 9th level spells from their spell list, such as gate, timestop, shades, mordenkainen's disjunction, etc... They have to not have abused planar binding many levels ago, not abuse fabricate all that much, and ignore spells like forcecage, not to mention scrying. The number of abusive spells and spell combos with splatbooks is so large that even trying to remember all the broken spells at a wizard's fingertips is an impossible task, and the spell levels of those spells get lower and lower (shivering touch!!!). All this adds up to the game breaking down somewhere between 11th and 17th level - i'm being generous and giving it till 17th. I have yet to see a campaign that got that far - even the all-non-casters game I played in broke down at 16th level because the AC spread in the party was ridiculous (over 30 points difference between low and high AC), and the tank was impossible to hit with CR+4 monsters. Yes, you can bring in the "I win D&D" crap. But that's not even a remotely valid argument, because once you blow up the world, you no longer care about balance, because you're no longer actually playing D&D anymore. My point is you can't play anymore at 17th level. So exactly right - you aren't playing D+D anymore because you *aren't playing anymore*. So I don't even care what happens *after* 17th level - nothing does, so '9th level spells at 24th level' is not just pointless, it *never happens* because the game is already over. End of story. On the topic of ECL/LA in general. LA is a flawed system for PCs. The idea of giving up levels for some kind of power that exists outside the level system is a bad concept as far as PCs are concerned. It can never work. It's probably not even a good system for monsters, but we can live with monsters not having very concrete systems because they're entirely arbitrary. The whole point of a level based system is that two characters of equal level are supposed to be equivalent. Trying to create some funky add-on to the system where your goal is to make a character of lower level equivalent to a higher level one is screwy. When you're doing that, you really need to even rethink the design goals. Yes, the LA system totally sucks. No, there's no great fix for it. You're better off starting making a human PC then giving them minor flavor abilities and substitutions to get the desired effect. Instead of having a giant with a huge strength mod, take a belt of giant strength and have it be an innate character ability, then just say the belt slot doesn't do anything and build the character as a fighter. Spend a few feats on being bigger and then call it a night. The less you open the monster manual the better. You're much better off trying to approximate and concept of what you want to be, rather than trying to duplicate the entire MM entry. Replacement for LA: Step 0 - DM's permission. Let's face it, some monsters have crazy abilities that are *never* appropriate for PCs. (Chronotryn comes to mind). The DM is fully within his rights to ban outright any monster with over-the-top abilities. In general, the following is recommended as a guideline: (A) any monster capable of getting extra standard or full round actions is inappropriate as a PC race. (B) any monster with spellcasting as a PC class of level greater than its HD is inappropriate. (C) Monsters that receive spellcasting at all should be examined closely, generally receiving PC class spellcasting > 2/3 HD is overpowering with monster statistics, because the monster HD become better than PC class HD. A monster that has spellcasting ability as a PC class = its HD should otherwise have stats on par with an "LA+0" race - for each level of reduced spellcasting increase the relative awesomeness allowed for the monster. (The DM is perfectly in his right to deny monsters that have spellcasting as a PC class. If he does allow them, he counts as having as many levels of the appropriate spellcasting class (advanceable by class levels and PrC levels) as his spellcasting ability implies). (D) wish as an SLA is *very* inappropriate. Just about anything else is ok (including most SLAs and the like), with the caveat that if the DM absolutely needs to he can ban a race for a truly abusive ability. (Barring those listed above, a DM should rarely have to invoke his right to ban a monster as a PC race). Step 1 - take the monster's CR. Add 1 because players are generally better at exploiting monster abilities. This is a new statistic: minimum starting level. A monster of that race may not be created as a character unless the APL is at least equal to the minimum starting level. Call Min Start Level X. Step 2 - Check HD. If HD = X, it starts with X racial HD. Easy. If HD < X, it can take X-HD class levels at character creation. For example, a monster with 4 racial HD and Min Start Level 7 starts the game with 4 racial HD and 3 class levels as a 7th level character, and cannot be started as a player character before that. (This has the odd effect that you can never play such a creature at class level 1 or 2... oh well.) If HD > X. This generally means there is no good way of quickly converting the monster to a PC race. The key things to achieve are to reduce the HD to X while keeping BAB approximately constant - generally accomplished by altering the nature of the HD. DM's discretion and involvement advised. Step 3 - Determine stats. Pair elite array against the monster's stats by comparing high stat to high stat, etc... subtract elite array from the monster's stats, round the remainder down. These are the stat mods. Allow the player to make any decisions on elite-monster stat pairings when there are multiple permissible pairings. Any stat pumps based on level accrued due to racial HD are lost, or at the DM's option one or more stat mods are reduced by an amount = the level based stat pumps owed. (for odd pumps this should generally have no effect on the stat mods, since you've been rounding down to find all those - generally only even numbers of pumps should be awarded). Step 4 - Determine abilities. The player gets all of the monsters abilities, but receives no gear typically carried by the monster unless he expends wealth to have that gear.
YabaTheWhat 04-17-07, 11:07 AM	NOTE: Unless specifically stated, a monster stat block does not use an elite array. Unless the monster stat block lists at least one class level, it does not use any specialized array at all. Such monsters are "average" for their species, with scores of [11,11,11,10,10,10] before racial bonuses, distributed in whatever order the designer chooses.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 11:10 AM	NOTE: Unless specifically stated, a monster stat block does not use an elite array. Unless the monster stat block lists at least one class level, it does not use any specialized array at all. Such monsters are "average" for their species, with scores of [11,11,11,10,10,10] before racial bonuses, distributed in whatever order the designer chooses. Thank you. I am capable of reading the rules. The rules say Erinyes have a LA+7. This isn't even subject to rules debate. Here, let me quote myself. Sigh... this is obviously not a 'rules-based' way of doing things... the rules clearly state they get +7LA and are forced to be totally craptastic in a game that's one level away from ending. (min level 16, game ends at 17th level). Theory: NPC level N = CR N monster. NPC at level N has elite array as its stat base (regardless of what method of stat generation the players used). Therefore, if we want to make monster PCs, we should remove elite array to see what its stat mods should be, just like we can do with NPCs. Because in theory those stat mods are uniquely balanced (because CR N = level N NPC). (And I'm even advocating increasing the starting level of the Erinyes over its CR because it has more HD than CR - that's sort of like LA, except its not a sucky mechanic that totally hoses characters). Those stat mods trade off against having strictly worse abilities overall than a classed character receives from his class levels. (at least true for most classes: spellcasters, rogues, even rangers, barbarians, and at low levels paladin. Fighter is a 2 level class, and over those 2 levels it gets better abilities per HD than a monster does). Once i say "i think LA is pointless and stupid" and propose a non-RAW method of making monster characters, why must I adhere to the RAW on how to calculate ability modifiers? I explicitly gave the method I'm using. Its part of the method. Deal.
YabaTheWhat 04-17-07, 11:18 AM	The point is, by saying the monster's bonuses are listed based on it having the elite array, you're assuming that its bonuses are smaller than they actually are. That's like saying, "Well the elf in the monster manual is based on a ranger, so those weapon proficiencies must come from its level of ranger. The PC version obviously doesn't have them. With that in mind, obviously elves are underpowered. Let's fix that by giving them wings." Never mind that there's no reason whatsoever to make that assumption, or that the consequences will only matter some of the time. It still takes away bonuses that the race would otherwise have, then attempts to compensate for the lack of an ability that, according to the rules, they don't lack. If the erinyes' ECL needs adjusting based on false assumptions about its abilities, then the same can be said for every race in every publication that even attempts to supply any semblance of balance.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 11:28 AM	The point is, by saying the monster's bonuses are listed based on it having the elite array, you're assuming that its bonuses are smaller than they actually are. That's like saying, "Well the elf in the monster manual is based on a ranger, so those weapon proficiencies must come from its level of ranger. The PC version obviously doesn't have them. With that in mind, obviously elves are underpowered. Let's fix that by giving them wings." Never mind that there's no reason whatsoever to make that assumption, or that the consequences will only matter some of the time. It still takes away bonuses that the race would otherwise have, then attempts to compensate for the lack of an ability that, according to the rules, they don't lack. If the erinyes' ECL needs adjusting based on false assumptions about its abilities, then the same can be said for every race in every publication that even attempts to supply any semblance of balance. There's a reason racial traits (like martial weapon proficiencies) are listed separately. But stats are just numbers! (Oh noes, it just won't feel like playing an Erinyes if I don't get my +10 Str mod!) The point is to allow players to play monstrous creatures without using a metal pole to give them an enema. Your example is nothing like what I did - racial abilities are flavorful abilities that need to be kept. Numerics are just numerics, slightly smaller numbers won't make it feel any less like an Erinyes.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-17-07, 11:35 AM	My point is you can't play anymore at 17th level. So exactly right - you aren't playing D+D anymore because you *aren't playing anymore*. So I don't even care what happens *after* 17th level - nothing does, so '9th level spells at 24th level' is not just pointless, it *never happens* because the game is already over. End of story. Well, you're not playing RAW D&D anymore. There's a difference. When we're talking about a high-level game (an actual game, not a theoretical construct), we have to accept that one of the following is true: -people aren't exploiting RAW to its fullest -the DM has nerfed significant loopholes to make it playable. High-level doesn't work in RAW, but that doesn't mean you can't run high-level, it just means when you're talking about high-level games, you have to assume that certain things have been fixed and that there is no "Real Ultimate Power (TM)". We have to assume that's already been house ruled away, because we have no game if it hasn't. The very fact that you're playing at all implies that those problems have been fixed, or at the very least aren't being used. Step 1 - take the monster's CR. Add 1 because players are generally better at exploiting monster abilities. This is a new statistic: minimum starting level. A monster of that race may not be created as a character unless the APL is at least equal to the minimum starting level. Call Min Start Level X. Well it's a bit more complex than that. Adding 1 to the CR can be done simply because PCs don't have default stats but instead have extraordinary stats. Even using the elite array, you have to take into account that PCs are going to have 18s and 17s as opposed to 15s and 14s, and that's still a shift from using the standard array and using the elite array (which is worth 1 CR by itself). Second, you've got the problem of magic items. Monsters generally don't use magic items, at all. At least that isn't factored into its CR. Give a dragon PC gear for instance, hell even just give it appropriate barding and custom feats, and it becomes much more powerful. You don't even have to stack on class levels. Just combine natural armor with full plate barding, a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor and you make it virtually un-hittable against most challenges it will encounter. Third, you've got another problem, namely scaling and this is a big one. Any creature that relies on SLAs has big trouble. Your SLAs may be useful when you start out, but eventually, you look like a multi-classed mage because your abilities don't get any better. Turning invisible at will is badass at levels 1-3. At level 10 it's hardly even worth mentioning, because even the party rogue is doing that at that point. Much like multi-classed casters, you can't ever improve your SLAs, so eventually they just fade away into relative uselessness. The best way to design monsters in my opinion is to simply write up a custom class for the monster you're making. Forget PC classes entirely, because they don't synergize well for the most part. There are a few exceptions, like a giant fighter, but by and large they don't make sense for anything remotely powerful. When you're playing a succubus for instance, you need to be getting better as a succubus, not taking unrelated sorcerer or fighter levels. You can't do that in the framework of the rules without a custom class for every monster you play. Otherwise, you become relegated to being a multi-class caster. And there's not a great way to fix that, with any system. And it fits more to concept. If you're designing something relatively vanilla, like an ogre or giant, you're better off just not even worrying about treating it like a monster and just make it as a straight up warrior character who substitutes some bonus feats or other class features for "is really big" and "has somewhat better strength". Because that's all playing one of those is really about.
Radijs 04-17-07, 11:36 AM	Sorry but the entire argument here becomes flawed. You state that the LA for an eryinges is too high in the normal rules because your own diffrent rules say that its so. Thats like saying that you can't use a cue to shoot pool because you need to use your feet while playing soccer.
Argaud 04-17-07, 11:39 AM	If the erinyes' ECL needs adjusting based on false assumptions about its abilities, then the same can be said for every race in every publication that even attempts to supply any semblance of balance. I wouldn't say every race, but I think the LA of too many races are badly calculated and tends to harm the players trying to use them. To be worth a high LA a race needs to have interesting and useful abilities and stats with good synergy with each other. Large size and huge strength, for instance, makes for a formidable warrior. Huge charisma and several cha-based slas leads to unbeatable DCs. Minor boosts to several abilities, random and mostly useless slas, redundant slas, lots of monster HD (except if they are dragon/outsider), overvalued qualities, etc. And one ends up with a huge LA for a critter that actually does nothing well. Like LA+14 beholders with their “wonderful” 11HD of aberration. :rolleyes:
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 12:02 PM	Sorry but the entire argument here becomes flawed. You state that the LA for an eryinges is too high in the normal rules because your own diffrent rules say that its so. Thats like saying that you can't use a cue to shoot pool because you need to use your feet while playing soccer. You know, I did a careful ability by ability analysis of the Erinyes capabilities. I concluded it was perfectly balanced at level 9 (and would also conclude its totally useless at level 16). Heck, at level 16 the first wizard who casts PW:Kill kills you without a save - and you expect to run into CR 17+ encounters over 40% of the time. And PW:Kill isn't even thought of as a good spell! (its not, unless you have players getting pwnt by the LA rules). One of Holy Word or Word of Chaos also slays you outright (7th level spell) so even a CR = APL-3 can kill you outright no save, and PW: Stun (8th level spell - CR = APL) will remove you from combat with no save. Stop putting the cart before the horse - I concluded Erinyes was balanced at 9th level, demonstrated such, and constructed rules which allowed Erinyes to be played at that level. Alternately, demonstrate that an Erinyes can compete against a Wiz 16, Clr 16, and Dru 16. Because it will be expected to contribute equally in a 16th level party with its +7 LA. (Note: The Druid is running around all day as a Megaraptor, has an AC easily past 50, and is getting ~7 attacks/full attack because he took IUS. The Wizard is casting stuff like shivering touch virtually at will, because its a *3rd level spell*, with Reach Spell if he doesn't deign to get close, and that's his low-level spell offense. He might just spend his entire day in a monster's body using magic jar, because he can. Alternately, he has PAO (combine the two for twice the fun). Also: mass charm monster (DC 18+stat mod, probably ballpark of 30 as a Grey Elf), maze, incendiary cloud, force cage, insanity, MMM, etc... The Cleric can quicken divine power (assuming no DMM), has twice your hp, great buff spells, and SoDs like greater command, blasphemy (or similar), etc...)
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 12:12 PM	Well it's a bit more complex than that. Adding 1 to the CR can be done simply because PCs don't have default stats but instead have extraordinary stats. Even using the elite array, you have to take into account that PCs are going to have 18s and 17s as opposed to 15s and 14s, and that's still a shift from using the standard array and using the elite array (which is worth 1 CR by itself). Choose your favorite justification? I happen to consider that part of 'using the monster better'. Second, you've got the problem of magic items. Monsters generally don't use magic items, at all. At least that isn't factored into its CR. Give a dragon PC gear for instance, hell even just give it appropriate barding and custom feats, and it becomes much more powerful. You don't even have to stack on class levels. Just combine natural armor with full plate barding, a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor and you make it virtually un-hittable against most challenges it will encounter. In the Erinyes case, it actually comes with more wealth than a level 9 character should have. (Computed above). Most of that in items they are assumed to carry. Dragons are one of those problematic things that have HD > CR. Actually, HD >> CR. They also have the hidden awesome subtype. That said, I don't recommend Dragons as PCs. I do recommend dragons as cohorts (which gives them NPC wealth - but they normally have a frickin horde - a dragon inclined to adventure could and would turn its horde into 'portable' magical wealth to carry with it, ie, gear. So this isn't really unreasonable, just overpowered with PC wealth, but ok with cohort wealth, especially given the cost of that armor! Dragons are also really vulnerable to dexterity damage. Which is a problem. And eventually, since we're pretending epic play is possible, Druids get Dragonshape, which means you're going to have to deal with huge Nat Armor + Armor anyway. Honestly, Dragons deserve their own unique conversion system, because their stats are so out of line with everything else, but I don't care enough to work on it right now. Third, you've got another problem, namely scaling and this is a big one. Any creature that relies on SLAs has big trouble. Your SLAs may be useful when you start out, but eventually, you look like a multi-classed mage because your abilities don't get any better. Turning invisible at will is badass at levels 1-3. At level 10 it's hardly even worth mentioning, because even the party rogue is doing that at that point. Much like multi-classed casters, you can't ever improve your SLAs, so eventually they just fade away into relative uselessness. All the more reason to strip LA out (since Charm Monster DC 14+cha mod isn't even noticeable at level 16, for instance). However, the quick fix is to make all SLA DCs = 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha Mod. Scales and balanced. The best way to design monsters in my opinion is to simply write up a custom class for the monster you're making. Forget PC classes entirely, because they don't synergize well for the most part. There are a few exceptions, like a giant fighter, but by and large they don't make sense for anything remotely powerful. When you're playing a succubus for instance, you need to be getting better as a succubus, not taking unrelated sorcerer or fighter levels. You can't do that in the framework of the rules without a custom class for every monster you play. Otherwise, you become relegated to being a multi-class caster. And there's not a great way to fix that, with any system. And it fits more to concept. If you're designing something relatively vanilla, like an ogre or giant, you're better off just not even worrying about treating it like a monster and just make it as a straight up warrior character who substitutes some bonus feats or other class features for "is really big" and "has somewhat better strength". Because that's all playing one of those is really about. Agree entirely on ogres and giants. However, coming up with unique advancement schemes for every monster is a lot of work. Also, there are the undead/fiend/etc... PrCs available (Fiend of Corruption, for instance), which a PC Succubus almost certainly qualifies for - if you want to get better as a Succubus. Sometimes, however, you want to advance other abilities. That's fine too. Having a base racial translation makes step 1 easy, and then just requires the existence of PrCs to develop racial abilities.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-17-07, 12:24 PM	Sometimes, however, you want to advance other abilities. That's fine too. Having a base racial translation makes step 1 easy, and then just requires the existence of PrCs to develop racial abilities. Well it depends on concept. I sort of assumed people who wanted to be a certain race (at least a dominant LA race) was that they wanted that race to play a prominent part in their character. You really can't play such a race as any kind of spellcaster, at all. Not how SLAs and spellcasting interact. So you can play a rogue or a warrior and that's it. Playing something like an erinyes as a fighter probably is best done just using the modified fighter paradigm, the same as you could with a giant. How different is an erinyes and simply a fighter with wings and some minor abilities and a really flavorful awesome description? I don't think we should get that obsessed with duplicating the monster manual and care more about creating a character that works with the player's concept. It's actually not important that it mechanically is an erinyes, only that it feels like one when it's played. You can achieve that sort of thing just by substituting class abilities for certain erinyes abilities and otherwise just using a standard build. Since there are so few implementations you can do with a racial hit dice based character, being limited to warrior and rogues only, you might as well just go the full 9 yards and design a custom class, that way people can play an Erinyes wizard or something and have it mean something.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 12:29 PM	Well it depends on concept. I sort of assumed people who wanted to be a certain race (at least a dominant LA race) was that they wanted that race to play a prominent part in their character. You really can't play such a race as any kind of spellcaster, at all. Not how SLAs and spellcasting interact. So you can play a rogue or a warrior. Playing something like an erinyes as a fighter probably is best done just using the modified fighter paradigm, the same as you could with a giant. How different is an erinyes and simply a fighter with wings and some minor abilities and a really flavorful awesome description? I don't think we should get that obsessed with duplicating the monster manual and care more about creating a character that works with the player's concept. It's actually not important that it mechanically is an erinyes, only that it feels like one when it's played. You can achieve that sort of thing just by substituting class abilities for certain erinyes abilities and otherwise just using a standard build. Why have races at all at that point? No, I'm serious. I actually (*shudder*) agree with Yabathewhat that racial abilities are an important part of the feel of the race. (I just don't agree that the exact numerics of the stat modifiers necessarily are). But I can easily imagine a system that involved no races whatsoever. Each type had a set of abilities - you choose your type, create a flavor, and occasionally play the 'design your own feat' minigame with the DM. However, if we're eliminating races with monstrous HD entirely, why aren't we eliminating all races?
DarkRhystar 04-17-07, 12:39 PM	The bottom line is Kreselak is 100% right. A CR N monster is supposed to be as good as a level N PC. Leave the arguing to Kreselak. He's at least good at pretending he knows what he's talking about. I sometimes wonder if magic worked along the same lines as Tome of Battle maneuvers when multiclassing if people like Kreselak would stop complaining. But where's the fun in that? As an aside, I also don't think ECL 16 is the right ECL for the Erineyes. Lower would suit me just fine.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 12:45 PM	Leave the arguing to Kreselak. He's at least good at pretending he knows what he's talking about. Would you like to actually state an objection to my statement? An APL N party can fight an EL N+4 encounter and it will be a 50-50 shot according to the CR rules. A one person level N party has an effective APL of N-4 (-2 for each reduction by half of the number of people in the party). He therefore has a 50-50 shot against an EL N encounter. (N-4 +4 = N) Finally, a CR N monster is an EL N encounter. Therefore, a level N PC has a 50-50 shot against a CR N monster by the rules as written, making the monster equivalent to the PC in terms of power. I sometimes wonder if magic worked along the same lines as Tome of Battle maneuvers when multiclassing if people like Kreselak would stop complaining. But where's the fun in that? Actually, we want non-casters to scale like casters do. However that is reasonably achieved. As an aside, I also don't think ECL 16 is the right ECL for the Erineyes. Lower would suit me just fine. I agree. ECL 9 seems perfect to me. =) The problem is that LA is a broken mechanic because it automatically means a character can't do level appropriate things.
DarkRhystar 04-17-07, 01:04 PM	Would you like to actually state an objection to my statement? The problem is that LA is a broken mechanic because it automatically means a character can't do level appropriate things. Nope. You have your mind made up that your current belief is the gospel truth. While I do not believe the LA mechanic is completely workable at all levels for all creatures as it stands, I do not believe it to be beyond the point of salvaging.
Balthanon 04-17-07, 01:08 PM	I agree. ECL 9 seems perfect to me. =) The problem is that LA is a broken mechanic because it automatically means a character can't do level appropriate things. Honestly, what is really needed when you are evaluating whether a character is appropriate for a level adjustment is comparison and testing. Put together a few scenarios (or better, have those posting in this thread each contribute some) then run an ECL 9 erinyes and other level 9 characters (with similar strengths) through them. I'm betting the erinyes is going to come out on top in those, so repeat it with some level 10 characters, 11, etc... When you reach the point where you can't tell the difference, that will be the appropriate ECL. Level adjustments leave characters with unique weaknesses, however, they are far from being unable to handle all level appropriate challenges. (Also, since it jumped out at me-- you don't really need armor proficiency to wear armor at higher levels. Mithril shirt and many other armors have a 0 armor check penalty, which means there is no penalty to wearing them without proficiency. And the power word (kill) that was mentioned earlier has a decent chance of taking out that d4 hit die elven wizard with a con penalty as well.)
Argaud 04-17-07, 01:14 PM	Level adjustments leave characters with unique weaknesses, however, they are far from being unable to handle all level appropriate challenges. (Also, since it jumped out at me-- you don't really need armor proficiency to wear armor at higher levels. Mithril shirt and many other armors have a 0 armor check penalty, which means there is no penalty to wearing them without proficiency. And the power word (kill) that was mentioned earlier has a decent chance of taking out that d4 hit die elven wizard with a con penalty as well.) Quite right. And the Power World Kill has an excellent chance of bouncing back to the caster because the target is covered by spellturning. It is a bad spell to use in anything but cannon fodder.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-17-07, 01:36 PM	Why have races at all at that point? No, I'm serious. I actually (*shudder*) agree with Yabathewhat that racial abilities are an important part of the feel of the race. (I just don't agree that the exact numerics of the stat modifiers necessarily are). But I can easily imagine a system that involved no races whatsoever. Each type had a set of abilities - you choose your type, create a flavor, and occasionally play the 'design your own feat' minigame with the DM. Yes racial abilities are an important feel to the race. But the question is, what abilities are important and how many do we have to hand out? If someone wants to play an erinyes or whatever, what are the integral abilities they care about? An erinyes is basically just a fallen warrior angel sort of thing. So wings are definitely a big part of it. The true sight , telepathy and seeing in darkness may well also be a major element. There are however a lot of other minor abiltiies, like the damage reduction or elemental resistances. People probably wouldn't even miss those. Even the natural armor isn't essential to the concept. As far as spell like abilities go, they may well be pretty important, though also problematic. I'm not sure if greater teleport at will is something you want to give PCs for awhile... Which actually leads to another fundamental flaw with converting monsters directly. Namely, some abilities are fine in the hands of monsters but broken in the hands of PCs, simply because PCs can use them to greater effect. Something like for instance, troll regeneration or teleportation at will is much more powerful in the hands of PCs than it is in the hands of a monster. So you've got to take that into account. I'm not sure exactly how, but I tend to lean more towards simply flagging it inappropriate as a PC race as opposed to creating the artificial LA system that hands out dead levels to people to compensate for overpowered utility abilities (and actually leads to the character being ineffective in combat).
YabaTheWhat 04-17-07, 04:09 PM	Why have races at all at that point? No, I'm serious. I actually (*shudder*) agree with Yabathewhat that racial abilities are an important part of the feel of the race. (I just don't agree that the exact numerics of the stat modifiers necessarily are). But I can easily imagine a system that involved no races whatsoever. Each type had a set of abilities - you choose your type, create a flavor, and occasionally play the 'design your own feat' minigame with the DM. However, if we're eliminating races with monstrous HD entirely, why aren't we eliminating all races? I figure that, with enough work (as in the amount of work it takes to create a gaming system from the ground up), all races and classes could be eliminated. The system would contain a list of traits, each priced individually. Scaling abilities would have scaling prices. Everything from spells & spell slots (or mana) to regeneration to attack accuracy & power to hitpoints & defense would have its own costs. Races would then be created without levels or level equivalency; they would simply have the cost listed for the sum of their abilities. Players would start as a blank slate with a certain number of points, and would be free to create any description that fit the abilities they purchased. They could then purchase more abilities as they gained more points to spend (in the same manner as D&D players gain experience points). [Is Gurps already like this? I've only seen the system once, briefly, and don't know much about it.] However, that's not what we have to work with when we work with D&D. What we have is level adjustments and effective character level. If a race doesn't seem to work for PCs, we can create new races with the same flavor and different abilities. Do not be disillusioned, however; the result of this modification process is, in fact, a new race (even if it is known as a lesser version of the original race). It is not a reinterpretation of the existing race based on the assumption that the people who made the race forgot or misinterpreted their own rules. On the point of the erinyes specifically, the problem is that its two major abilities allow it to defeat or circumvent pretty much any obstacle. It can teleport into (or out of) any location so long as it has a vague idea where it's going, and can charm any creature that gets in its way. These abilities work limitless times without any motion or sound, allowing it to make multiple attempts until it succeeds. Unless the erinyes is instantly killed, incapacitated, or stuck in an antimagic field, it's pretty much invulnerable. Based on this information, of which its designers were likely aware, it should not have been playable at all. Unfortunately, the trend in v3.5 is to make anything with a vaguely humanoid shape into a playable creature, because if they don't, the players will try it on their own (probably making the erinyes ECL 9 and subsequently ruining the game for anyone in the party who isn't playing an erinyes).
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 06:14 PM	Honestly, what is really needed when you are evaluating whether a character is appropriate for a level adjustment is comparison and testing. Put together a few scenarios (or better, have those posting in this thread each contribute some) then run an ECL 9 erinyes and other level 9 characters (with similar strengths) through them. I'm betting the erinyes is going to come out on top in those, so repeat it with some level 10 characters, 11, etc... When you reach the point where you can't tell the difference, that will be the appropriate ECL. Level adjustments leave characters with unique weaknesses, however, they are far from being unable to handle all level appropriate challenges. (Also, since it jumped out at me-- you don't really need armor proficiency to wear armor at higher levels. Mithril shirt and many other armors have a 0 armor check penalty, which means there is no penalty to wearing them without proficiency. And the power word (kill) that was mentioned earlier has a decent chance of taking out that d4 hit die elven wizard with a con penalty as well.) Ok, consider the following level 10 party constructed using 28PB: (I chose level 10 because I had 2 of the following level 10 PC builds handy, which meant less work). All of the below is core except for Wand of Lesser Vigor - replace with Wand of CLW if you object. I am also using the 'anyone can spend the xp' to allow characters like the rogue to get the benefit of the party's craft feats without forcing the party to sacrifice xp to the rogue. All items are listed at the cost actually payed for them (so half value for things that were crafted). Note, I'm considering all characters to have received enough xp to place them halfway to level 11, and for simplicity will not consider the effects of being underleveled relative to APL on xp for crafters. N Deep Halfling Rogue 10 Str 8 Dex 22 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 12 Racial: Darkvision 60’, +2 Craft (metal or stone), +2 Listen, +2 Appraise, Stonecunning, +1 to AC and to-hit, +1 saves (+3 vs fear), +1 attack with thrown or sling Skills (130 ranks): Listen +15, Spot +15, Hide +24, Move Silently +21, Bluff +14, Diplomacy* +14, Search* +17, Disable Device* +17, Use Magic Device* +14, Tumble* +19, Sleight of Hand +7 *mastered via skill mastery Class Abilities: 5d6 Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +3, Skill Mastery Feats: PBS, Rapid Fire, TWF, ITWF Initiative: +6 Defenses: 16 (50% miss chance from blink) HD: 6 + 9d6 + 20 (58hp) BAB: +7 Attack: alchemist's fire or flask of acid +16 ranged touch (1d6 fire or acid) Full Attack: Alch Fire or FoAcid +13/+13/+13/+7/+7 ranged touch (1d6 fire or acid) Saves: F+6 R+15 W+5 XP Spent: 1112 Gear (49k): Ring of Blinking (27k), Handy Haversack (1k), 50 each Flask of Acid and Alchemist's Fire, 10 Tanglefoot bags, MW Thieves Tools, MW Search Tool, MW Hide Tool (dark cloak), MW Move Silently Tool (soft boots), MW Spot Tool (glasses), MW Listen Tool (hearing aid), (2450gp total), Adamantine Dagger (3k), Amulet of Health (2k), Gloves of Dexterity (8k), Vest of Resistance +2 (2k), Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp), Hat of Disguise (900gp), 1900 gp C/N Wood Elf Cleric 10 Str 16 Dex 20 Con 12 Int 6 Wis 22 Cha 8 Racial: Imm sleep, +2 saves vs enchantment, low-light vision, Proficient: longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow, composites; +2 listen, search, spot; notice secret doors Skills: Spot +8, Listen +8, Concentration +14 Class Abilities: Turn Undead, Spellcasting, Channel Positive Energy (Spontaneous Cure), Domains (Luck and Travel) Feats: PBS, Rapid Fire, Craft Wondrous, Extend Spell Initiative: +5 AC: 28 (10 +11 armor +5 shield +1 dex +1 RoP) HD: 8 + 9d8 +10 (59 hp) BAB: +7 Attack: 2H Longsword +13 (1d8+7) or Composite Longbow +15 (1d8+7) Full Attack: 2H Longsword +13/+8 (1d8+7) or Composite Longbow +15/+10 (1d8+7) or +13/+13/+8 Rapid Fire Comp Longbow Saves: F+11 R+11 W+14 All of the above is calculated without Divine Power, DF, RM, or similar short-term buffs. It does count MV and GMW. XP spent: 2880 Gear (49k): Adamantine Longsword (GMW to +3) (3k), Mighty Composite Longbow (+3 str) (GMW to +3) (400gp), Arrows (500gp worth), Platemail (MV to +3) (1.6k), Animated Heavy Steel Shield +1 (MV to +3) (4.5k), Bead of Karma (10k), Rod of Lesser Extend (1.5k), Periapt of Wisdom +4 (8k), Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp), 6 holy symbols (150gp), Gloves of Dexterity +4 (8k), Vest of Resistance +3 (4.5k), RoP +1 (2k), 6000gp. Spells: (DC 16+spell level) 6/6+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1: (0th) Light x2, Detect Magic x4, Purify Food and Drink, (1st) Longstrider (domain), Divine Favor x3, Prot from Evil, Bless, Obscuring Mist, (2nd) Aid (domain), Align Weapon x2, Delay Poison*, Spiritual Weapon x2, Silence, (3rd) Fly (domain), MV** x2, Dispel Magic, Prayer, (4th) Freedom of Movement (domain), Extended MV, Death Ward, Dimensional Anchor, Divine Power, (5th) Teleport (domain), Righteous Might, Extended GMW x2 *extended via Lesser Rod of Extend Note the Extended MV is cast on the Druid, below. Gray Elf Illusionist 10 Str 6 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 28 Wis 10 Cha 8 Racial: Low-Light vision, Imm sleep, +2 save vs enchantment, proficient: longsword, rapier, longbow, shortbow, composite bows; +2 Listen, Spot, Search; auto-search secret doors Skills: Concentration +14, Spellcraft +22, Knowledge (Arcane) +22, Kno (Dungeoneering) +22, Kno (The Planes) +22, Kno (Religion) +22, Kno (Local) +22, Kno (Nature) +12, Spot +2, Listen +2 Class Abilities: Familiar (Rat), Spellcasting, Scribe Scroll, +2 bonus feats (see Feats), +1 illusion spell/splevel, ban evocation and enchantment Feats: Scribe Scroll (B), Improved Initiative, SpFoc (Illusion), Craft Arms and Armor (B), GSpFoc (Illusion), Spell Penetration, Craft Rod (B) Initiative: +8 AC: 25 (+4 mage armor +3 dex +6 NA +2 RoP) HD: 4 + 9d4 + 10 (37hp) + 1d10+10 temp False Life BAB: +5 Attack: Cast a spell, duh Saves: F+9 R+10 W+10 XP spent: 5000 (full alottment without losing a level) Gear (44.9k): Headband of Intellect +6 (18k), Rod of Lesser Extend (1.5k), 20 spell component pouches (100gp), Vest of Resistance +3 (4.5k), Amulet of Health (2k), Gloves of Dexterity (2k), Wand of Lesser Vigor* (750), Ring of Protection +2 (8k), Bag of Tricks (Tan, 3150), Wand of Minor Image (4500gp), 400gp *Can be used by anyone else in the party on the wizard. Spellbooks (4100gp): Spellbook (9 1st level spells, 4 2nd level spells, 4 3rd level spells, 4 4th level spells, 4 5th level spells free. Figure +2 spells per spell level after 1st: access = 50gp per page, 26 pages = 1300gp. Scribe for 2600 gp, total = 3900gp), 2 Back-up spellbooks (200gp, scribe free with Secret Page). Permanent Spell Effects: See Invisibility, Arcane Sight Spells: (DC 19+spell level, 21+spell level for illusions, +4 vs SR) 4/6+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/3+1: (0th) Ghost Sounds, Message, Prestidigitation x2, (1st) Grease, Mage Armor*, Color Spray x3, Enlarge Person, Rope Trick, (2nd) Protection from Arrows*, Glitterdust, False Life x2, Web, Minor Image, Alter Self*+, (3rd) Stinking Cloud, Fly x2, Major Image x2, Slow, (4th) Dim Door, Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Phantasmal Killer x3, (5th) Shadow Evocation, Persistent Image, Teleport, Cloudkill *Extended using Rod +Alter Self into something useful for NA - we'll assume you'll net +6 NA out of this. Dwarf Druid (Str 8 Dex 8 Con 18) Int 14 Wis 22 Cha 6 Racial: Darkvision 60', Stonecunning, Weapon Familiarity, Stability (+4 defend Trip/Bullrush), +2 saves vs poison + spells + spell-likes, +1 attack vs orcs + goblins, +4 AC vs giants, +2 appraise (stone or metal), +2 craft (stone or metal) Skills: Spot +19, Listen +19, Kno (Nature) +15, Survival +19, Concentration +18, Handle Animal +11 Class Abilities: Animal Companion (Megaraptor), Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's Lure, Wild Shape (4/day, Large), Imm Poison. Feats: IUS, Blind Fighting, Natural Spell, Improved Initiative HD: 8 + 9d8 + 40 (89hp) not wildshaped Spends day wildshaped as a Megaraptor (spends time to re-adjust equipment at the 10 hour mark when he needs to re-wildshape). Move 60', Str 21 Dex 15 Con 21(23), Attacks: Talons (1), Claws (2), Bite (1), Pounce, +6 NA Initiative: +6 AC: 46 or 45 (10 + 11 armor + 5 shield + 6NA + 2 Dex + 7 monk's belt +5/4 Barkskin*) *time of day dependent, first casting is +5 HD: 149 = hp before wild-shape (89) + 60 (wild-shaped con mod after forcing recalc based on putting on shirt of con) BAB: +7 Attack: Talons +13 (2d6+5) Full Attack: Unarmed Strike +15/+10 (1d8+8) and Talons +8 (2d6+3) and Claws +8/+8 (1d4+3) and Bite +8 (1d8+3) Saves: F+15 R+7 W+16 *Current rules on wild-shape (1) keep current hp total from unwildshaped form, (2) act of wild-shaping changes con without changing hp. This disassociates your con mod from your hp, (3) other effects force a hp recalculation normally, using your current constitution. However, because none of your current hp are due to your current constitution, you gain full benefit of the current constitution without losing any of your pre-wildshape hp. (Ie, subtract all hp due to constitution (0), then add back in con mod x level hp). Thus putting on a shirt of +con causes this operation by forcing a hp recalc via changing your con score. XP Spent: 3760 Gear (49k): Wild Dragonhide Platemail +1 (+3 from cleric's GMW, 11k), Wild Tower Shield +1 (8.5k), Bead of Karma (10k), Monk Belt (worn after wildshaping, 6.5k), 2x Rod of Lesser Extend (3k), Belt of Health +2 (worn before wildshaping, 2k), Periapt of Wisdom +2 (worn after wildshape, 2k), Vest of Resistance +2 (worn after wildshape, 2k), Shirt of Constitution +2 (worn in wildshape 2k), Chain Shirt Barding for Megaraptor Animal Companion (200gp)** *Note, a wild-shaped druid retains the humanoid type, and thus has humanoid item slots. Further note that non-armor non-weapons resize to fit their wearer. So the druid may wear items while wild-shaped so long as he puts them on after wildshaping. **Further note: the Megaraptor is "trained for war" by the druid, and therefore has armor proficiency Spells: (DC 16+spell level) 6/6/6/4/4/3 (0th) Cure Minor Wounds x2, Create Water x3, Detect Magic, (1st) Longstrider*, Faerie Fire x2, Entangle x2, Obscuring Mist, (2nd) Barkskin*** x3, Gust of Wind, Wood Shape, Delay Poison*, (3rd) GMF** x2, Protection from Energy, Sleet Storm, (4th) Flame Strike x2, Freedom of Movement x2, (5th) Animal Growth, Wall of Thorns, Death Ward *Extended with rod and shared with animal companion. One GMF gives +1 to all Nat Attacks, one gives +3 to Druid's Unarmed Strikes and AComp's Talons . Extended spells last 28 hours. ---------- Which one would you replace with an erinyes?
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 06:20 PM	Quite right. And the Power World Kill has an excellent chance of bouncing back to the caster because the target is covered by spellturning. It is a bad spell to use in anything but cannon fodder. ... Where does the Erinyes get Spell-Turning from again? You're expecting the Party Mage, who you're already going to be asking for a casting of Mindblank, to dump a Spell Turning on you? He's not made of high level spells. And you only get to turn a 9th level spell 50% of the time (1d4+6 spell levels, need a 3 or better on d4), and better hope nothing else gets cast on you first. Further, it does nothing against Holy Word, which still kills you outright. When cast by a level 13 cleric. Who's supposed to be cannon fodder at that point. Oops. With 7 LA you *are* cannon fodder.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 06:27 PM	Yes racial abilities are an important feel to the race. But the question is, what abilities are important and how many do we have to hand out? If someone wants to play an erinyes or whatever, what are the integral abilities they care about? An erinyes is basically just a fallen warrior angel sort of thing. So wings are definitely a big part of it. The true sight , telepathy and seeing in darkness may well also be a major element. There are however a lot of other minor abiltiies, like the damage reduction or elemental resistances. People probably wouldn't even miss those. Even the natural armor isn't essential to the concept. As far as spell like abilities go, they may well be pretty important, though also problematic. I'm not sure if greater teleport at will is something you want to give PCs for awhile... See, there are very few abilities i put into that 'PCs shouldn't have them' category. Like extra standard actions each round. That's broken. Greater Teleport at will (Self only)? At level 9? Whatever. You're going to be a fighter anyway, might as well get something that will save you from Forcecage. Which actually leads to another fundamental flaw with converting monsters directly. Namely, some abilities are fine in the hands of monsters but broken in the hands of PCs, simply because PCs can use them to greater effect. Something like for instance, troll regeneration or teleportation at will is much more powerful in the hands of PCs than it is in the hands of a monster. So you've got to take that into account. Teleport at will? So they're harder to kill... whatever. Except PCs tend to be less cautious than optimal. Troll Regeneration? Don't make me laugh. "Hey boss, this one keeps regenerating!" "Keep coup de gracing him, I'm going to start a fire." Regeneration only means you save miniscule amounts of money on Wands of Lesser Vigor. I don't even care. You'd have to hand out Regeneration 20 before I'd care. At all. And even Regen 20 isn't *that* high for mid-high levels. I'm not sure exactly how, but I tend to lean more towards simply flagging it inappropriate as a PC race as opposed to creating the artificial LA system that hands out dead levels to people to compensate for overpowered utility abilities (and actually leads to the character being ineffective in combat). See, i'm more of a 'sure, we can make that work' type of person. I also have no problems allowing meleers and skill monkeys access to high powered (with accompanying racial hit dice) races - they have to compete with spellcasters who already get all that and a bag of chips.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 06:37 PM	I figure that, with enough work (as in the amount of work it takes to create a gaming system from the ground up), all races and classes could be eliminated. The system would contain a list of traits, each priced individually. Scaling abilities would have scaling prices. Everything from spells & spell slots (or mana) to regeneration to attack accuracy & power to hitpoints & defense would have its own costs. Races would then be created without levels or level equivalency; they would simply have the cost listed for the sum of their abilities. Players would start as a blank slate with a certain number of points, and would be free to create any description that fit the abilities they purchased. They could then purchase more abilities as they gained more points to spend (in the same manner as D&D players gain experience points). [Is Gurps already like this? I've only seen the system once, briefly, and don't know much about it.] Thats GURPS. Its an awful system. Ew. However, that's not what we have to work with when we work with D&D. What we have is level adjustments and effective character level. If a race doesn't seem to work for PCs, we can create new races with the same flavor and different abilities. Do not be disillusioned, however; the result of this modification process is, in fact, a new race (even if it is known as a lesser version of the original race). It is not a reinterpretation of the existing race based on the assumption that the people who made the race forgot or misinterpreted their own rules. And LA is a broken mechanic because the game expects you to have N HD at level N. If you don't, things start breaking (not in the overpowered way, in the unexpected interactions occur - such as characters who should only be dazed get instagibbed by blasphemy). I agree that substantive abilities are important to a race's feel. But numerics are totally arbitrary - an Erinyes feels no more or less like an Erinyes if you modify the racial stat modifications a little bit. How is it any different than the current monster except numerically? You're being totally ridiculous on this point. On the point of the erinyes specifically, the problem is that its two major abilities allow it to defeat or circumvent pretty much any obstacle. It can teleport into (or out of) any location so long as it has a vague idea where it's going, and can charm any creature that gets in its way. These abilities work limitless times without any motion or sound, allowing it to make multiple attempts until it succeeds. Unless the erinyes is instantly killed, incapacitated, or stuck in an antimagic field, it's pretty much invulnerable. Based on this information, of which its designers were likely aware, it should not have been playable at all. Unfortunately, the trend in v3.5 is to make anything with a vaguely humanoid shape into a playable creature, because if they don't, the players will try it on their own (probably making the erinyes ECL 9 and subsequently ruining the game for anyone in the party who isn't playing an erinyes). ...you must have at least a reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting. a 'vague idea' is nowhere near sufficient. Charm Monster isn't as powerful as you let on. A Beguiler has been doing similar things since level 1 for humanoids, and level 8 for monsters. Your save DC isn't even that exciting. Seriously. You can build wizards at level 9 who have save DCs in the 24 ballpark for that spell without trying too hard. So maybe an optimized Erinyes for charisma hits DC 28... its the *only thing they can do* outside of hit things with a weapon. And its a perfectly level appropriate ability. Edit: correction, hitting DC 28 doesn't happen. They top out at 10+4+cha mod, and cha mod is bounded on the set [16,28], assuming they get 2 stat pumps, which means a cha mod of +9, netting +23, and an item of +2-4 charisma for at most 2 more for +25, actually worse than the wizard! (grey elf wizard int 20 starting +2 level, +6 item (crafted himself) = 28 -> 10 +8 +4 +2 SpFoc(ench), GrSpFoc (ench) = DC 24. The erinyes beats him by 1. And can't use heighten spell to increase its DC, could use ability focus for +2, but never gets better higher level abilities like Mass Charm Monster. Winner at 9th level: Erinyes, by a nose. Winner overall: wizard) Note Protection from X and Magic Circle against X automatically shut down Charm spells against those protected. Charm defenses are available from level 1.... surprise surprise. Finally, if they make their saving throw, they know you used a spell against them. You can't just keep trying with impunity. And its not like they don't know who to blame: *you look like an erinyes*. Talk about standing out like a sore thumb. The problem is you somehow think that an Erinyes abilities aren't level appropriate at level 9. They are, nothing it does is unique, and its going to have to become a meleer because its utterly boned at spellcasting with 9 racial HD, meaning the road to Real Ultimate Power (TM) is denied it.
Argaud 04-17-07, 06:53 PM	... Where does the Erinyes get Spell-Turning from again? At the level Power World Kill is around? Easily. Further, it does nothing against Holy Word, which still kills you outright. When cast by a level 13 cleric. Who's supposed to be cannon fodder at that point. Oops. Ooops! Your precious caster dies to a rogue with AMF. Contrived much? Try again. With 7 LA you *are* cannon fodder. Your opinion, which is worth very little. By the way, you are still calculating the druid AC and hp with those fantastic homerules that everybody knows by now they are false? Small wonder in your game they are so powerful. Which is irrelevant for those of us (which I guess is almost everybody) who like to play with the real rules of the game. To recap: - No, junior, Monk's Belt does not work with any kind of armor, not even Wild Armor. Please, stop trying. - No junior, your hit points are calculated based in your normal Con score, just like if you were a lycantrope. You know the rules, they are in the MM since it was published years and years ago. Rulelawyering and trying to sell the DM peculiar interpretations of the rules means nothing in the game forums where only official rule interpretations count. Live with it.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 07:10 PM	At the level Power World Kill is around? Easily. Level 16, meaning a wizard with PWK is a CR +1 encounter, is conveniently the level Erinyes become playable according to WotC. Which means that's a pretty common occurrence, because you'll fight lots of CR+1 monsters. Heck, you'll fight the occasional EL+4 encounter (15% of encounters), which could be a level 20 wizard, or 2 level 18 wizards! You know, for someone who insists wizards run out of spells in normal play or otherwise they aren't fighting enough encounters, asking a wizard to hand out their high-level spells like candy because *your character is incapable of doing something level appropriate, much less surviving without help* is totally hypocritical and ridiculous. The wizard has better things to do with that slot than waste it on the erinyes - maybe when the erinyes dies it'll be replaced by a real character. I hate to say it, but the erinyes with +7LA is *more of a liability than a fighter*, and that's saying something. A wizard at 16th level has ballpark 4-5 7th level spells and 3 8th level spells, and that's the majority of his offensive power right there, + one or more Mindblank spells (at least one for himself) taken from that. If the wizard is going to last 4 encounters, he needs most of those for offense. So he can, you know, cast his DC 30 Mass Charm Monster and make you feel small in the pants because (1) CR 14-16 monsters might actually fail a DC30 and (2) he effects everybody in the battle at once. As opposed to your DC 20 single-target Charm Monster. That's not even an ability at level 16, that's flavor text. But its better than anything else you're going to do... Ooops! Your precious caster dies to a rogue with AMF. Contrived much? Try again. Uh... Holy Word and similar is an SLA on a number of creatures, and is a 7th level cleric spell... fairly common in theory. AMF requires a caster to cast it or a scroll. Assuming your rogue bothered with a scroll, he is also not sneaking up on a caster with AMF active (it does radiate strong abjuration - gets picked up by the permanencied arcane sight instantly), and the wizard just teleports away. It also has a 10' radius, which means the effect isn't that large. AMF is not a good way to kill casters. Its impractical, expensive, and has far too many limitations to have any real hope of success. Your opinion, which is worth very little. It has 9 HD at level 16. The *wizard* has almost as much BAB as it, and *more hp* (and full spellcasting to boot). What is it supposed to do? Die? On yeah, that's exactly what it does. By the way, you are still calculating the druid AC and hp with those fantastic homerules that everybody knows by now they are false? Small wonder in your game they are so powerful. Which is irrelevant for those of us (which I guess is almost everybody) who like to play with the real rules of the game. To recap: - No, junior, Monk's Belt does not work with any kind of armor, not even Wild Armor. Please, stop trying. - No junior, your hit points are calculated based in your normal Con score, just like if you were a lycantrope. You know the rules, they are in the MM since it was published years and years ago. Rulelawyering and trying to sell the DM peculiar interpretations of the rules means nothing in the game forums where only official rule interpretations count. Live with it. You know, i actually bookmarked the thread where you lost that debate, just so i could whip it out when you keep spouting this nonsense. Bottom line: You're wrong, my interpretation is exactly what the rules as written say. See here for more details: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=790380 (i believe Argaud comes up with the CustServe on crack interpretation on the 2nd or 3rd page, its completely disproven by the end of the thread. Please note Argaud never once makes a rules-based argument.)
Jaxgaret 04-17-07, 07:24 PM	You know, i actually bookmarked the thread where you lost that debate, just so i could whip it out when you keep spouting this nonsense. Wow. I'm not even going to make a humorously sarcastic remark, lest it be bookmarked for future reference. :)
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 07:30 PM	Wow. I'm not even going to make a humorously sarcastic remark, lest it be bookmarked for future reference. :) I know you're joking, but don't worry, you're safe. Argaud just has this annoying habit of referring to that debate as if he won it, and he very clearly didn't.
Jaxgaret 04-17-07, 07:34 PM	Yes, this is a double post. My apologies to the gods of the forum. All else aside, Squirelloid, I agree that an Erinyes, and most monsters-as-PCs, have much too high an ECL; particularly too high of an LA, becuase RHD don't gimp a character as much as LA does. But, as you and I both know, there is a reason for why it was set up that way. Experienced gaming groups can feel free to houserule ECLs and LAs down to what they feel is appropriate, and with you as an example, do so; a gaming group full of people who are new to the game may see monsters-as-PCs and, if they are equivalent in power to the most powerful base classes, may never even play an LA+0 race, and never get pulled into the medieval swords-and-sorcery world of D&D, because they're in a monster menagerie party that can be difficult to properly roleplay in. Wait, did you say that such a result would cause WotC to lose money from the D&D franchise, due to loss of clientele and smaller demand for splatbooks? Hmm, you may be right. Anyway, just felt like putting it out there. Try not to be so negative and combative in your posts, dude. Don't let the haters pull you down. We're all here to exchange ideas that might help us to have a little fun, right?
Argaud 04-17-07, 09:10 PM	Level 16, meaning a wizard with PWK is a CR +1 encounter, is conveniently the level Erinyes become playable according to WotC. Which means that's a pretty common occurrence, because you'll fight lots of CR+1 monsters. Heck, you'll fight the occasional EL+4 encounter (15% of encounters), which could be a level 20 wizard, or 2 level 18 wizards! You know, for someone who insists wizards run out of spells in normal play or otherwise they aren't fighting enough encounters, asking a wizard to hand out their high-level spells like candy because *your character is incapable of doing something level appropriate, much less surviving without help* is totally hypocritical and ridiculous. The wizard has better things to do with that slot than waste it on the erinyes - maybe when the erinyes dies it'll be replaced by a real character. I hate to say it, but the erinyes with +7LA is *more of a liability than a fighter*, and that's saying something. As I said it is easy to get protection at level 17, or 16. You are merely stating it is not which is completely falacious. Wake up, you don’t even need a wizard. As opposed to your DC 20 single-target Charm Monster. That's not even an ability at level 16, that's flavor text. But its better than anything else you're going to do... Again, utterly stupid and misleading statement. A PC would have the DC far higher. Likely around 30. Since all the boosters the wizard has she has also, and a starting base 10 points higher. Uh... Holy Word and similar is an SLA on a number of creatures, and is a 7th level cleric spell... fairly common in theory. More misleading theories. Holy word is very rarely used against PCs because they are rarely fighting angels or good clerics. And it is negated by a second level spell. AMF requires a caster to cast it or a scroll. Oh please. There is a cheap item anyone can have at level 12. Assuming your rogue bothered with a scroll, he is also not sneaking up on a caster with AMF active (it does radiate strong abjuration - gets picked up by the permanencied arcane sight instantly), and the wizard just teleports away. It also has a 10' radius, which means the effect isn't that large. Yes. Now the wizard is able to see a rogue sneaking on him. How amazing! With no skill and likely a dumped wisdom score. Your logic is astonishing. The effect is quite large, since the rogue can just start a grapple and kill the wizard at leisure. Which might happen, and will happen about as many times as Holy Words are being cast against the PCs. AMF is not a good way to kill casters. Its impractical, expensive, and has far too many limitations to have any real hope of success. As I just showed, it is an excellent and very easy way to kill arcane casters. Yes, I am aware the druid has a far better chance of surviving, don't try to change the goalposts by responding that a druid would be able to take out the rogue, please. That "logic" got old long ago. It has 9 HD at level 16. The *wizard* has almost as much BAB as it, and *more hp* (and full spellcasting to boot). What is it supposed to do? Die? On yeah, that's exactly what it does. As I said a few posts back I don’t think the Erynies is LA+7. I certainly wouldn’t play one as LA+7 for the reasons I stated back then. Still, given the slas and high abilities, and giving the wealth of a level 16 character, I don’t think it is an easy victim of any monster. Except of course, stuff like a level 20 caster that starts with Time Stop and opens 3 Gates for Solars. Which means a TPK regardless of what the level 16 party does. But hey... it was a valid encounter, yeah. Good luck finding new players for the game, too. :rolleyes: You know, i actually bookmarked the thread where you lost that debate, just so i could whip it out when you keep spouting this nonsense. Bottom line: You're wrong, my interpretation is exactly what the rules as written say. See here for more details: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=790380 (i believe Argaud comes up with the CustServe on crack interpretation on the 2nd or 3rd page, its completely disproven by the end of the thread. Please note Argaud never once makes a rules-based argument.) That is good, it saves me reposting if anyone ask. As for "lost the argument" I have no idea of what you mean. I can’t lose an argument when WotC officially rules in favor (no, wait! Even more restrictively) of what I was saying. Sorry, Junior, you can’t “win” an argument against the correct, official, interpretation of the rules. You can end up looking like a stubborn fool by denying the obvious, though. You do that very well. Amazingly, my interpretation was how most players were already playing the game. The mystery behind this astonishing fact is that the -intention- of the rules also counts. And the intention of the rules was pretty clear, even if the actual text was confusing and easy to twist in the favor of powergaming. Yet a simple inquire to CustServ was more than enough to dispel any doubt. Squirrelloid, please, keep your rulelawyering and bizarre houserules for yourself. Thank you. Edit to add that Jaxgaret is probably right (even if I am not sure his post was directed to me). Arrogant posts and the posting of opinions as if they were holy canon tends to set my off and my posts become too combative. I will try to be less aggressive in the future.
Balthanon 04-17-07, 09:19 PM	Well, if we're going to randomly double the treasure, I suppose I can go along with that-- the Erinyes should have the same opportunity. If we're going to take out a party member, I would probably go with the druid actually. It's going to be almost impossible to hit if you allow the whole monk's belt/wild armor thing but with a +8 to hit on the majority of its attacks and rather mediocre damage... eh. The barkskins might be nice for the other party members, but it sounds like those are being used exclusively on itself to wow and amaze us with the AC. The Erinyes on the other hand, can let the rogue flank from almost anywhere without worrying about the mischance from blink; stun opponents a number of times to further reduce the battlefield; do more damage than those flame strikes on a full attack; and also has a weapon that allows her excellent perception skills to benefit the party by automatically casting fairie fire on any enemy she strikes. She is a full blown scout with better skill modifiers than the halfling (with far superior mobility), has a number of abilities that mimic the wizards abilities, out hits and damages both the cleric and druid, has almost double the hp of any character other than the druid, and has an AC and mischance that will likely result in her getting hit less than any of the characters in the party as well (fewer lucky 20s than the druid). Personally, that's not the type of character I mind playing. Truthfully, the only thing I was dissappointed in was that I couldn't fit in Flyby Attack-- of course, if you really want to call it ECL 9, then the character could also take a level of fighter or better swordsage to free up a few feats. Delilah ECL ?? Erinyes LE Medium Outsider (Baatezu, Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Init +9; Senses Darkvision 60 ft, see in darkness, true seeing; Listen +16, Spot +21 Languages Common, Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial; telepathy 100 ft ________________________________________ AC 35 (+9 Dex, +8 natural, +4 armor, +2 deflection, +2 NA enhancement), touch 21, flat-footed 26; mirror image hp 107 (9 HD); DR 5/good; SR 20 Immune Fire, poison; Resist acid 10, cold 10 Fort +15 (6), Ref +17 (6), Will +12 (6) ________________________________________ Speed 30 ft. [6 squares], fly 50 ft. (good) Melee +1 spiked chain +20/+15 (2d4+24) w/10 ft reach and DC 21 or stunned 7/day or Melee +1 spiked chain +20/+15 (2d4+24) plus gore +19 (1d8+10) or Ranged mw composite longbow +20/+15 (1d8+4/x3), 120 ft range Space 5 ft.; Reach 10 ft. Base Atk +9; Grp +16 Atk Options Entangle (animate rope, 30 foot range) Special Actions summon baatezu (2d10 lemures, 1d4 bearded devils; 50% success) Spell-like Abilities caster level 12th At will-- greater teleport (self plus 50 lbs of objects), charm monster (DC 21), mirror image (DC 19), unholy blight (DC 21). Maneuvers and Stances Known (IL 4th): Stances - island of blades (1st) Strikes - #clinging shadow strike (DC 15) (1st) Disciplines: Shadow Hand # - maneuver readied (no recovery) ________________________________________ Abilities Str 30, Dex 28, Con 26, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 24 Feats Dodge, Mobility, Martial Study (clinging shadow strike), Martial Stance (island of blades), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Shadow Blade Skills Concentration +20, Diplomacy +23, Hide +25, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +12, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (geography) +3, Listen +16, Move Silently +21, Sense Motive +16, Spot +21, Tumble +14 Possessions 18,300 gold - +1 revealing stunning surge spiked chain (DC 21) 16,000 gold - +4 Belt of Giant's Strength 16,000 gold - +4 Gloves of Dexterity 8,000 gold - Horned Helm 12,000 gold - Amulet of Natural Armor +2 and Health +2 8,000 gold - Ring of Protection +2 6,500 gold - Cloak of Elvenkind and Resistance +2 9,400 gold - +3 thistledown padded 2,500 gold - eyes of the eagle 800 gold - masterwork composite longbow (Str +4) 500 gold - miscellaneous arrows/goods --------------------------------------------------------------- 98,000 gold/2 = 49,000 gold spent ________________________________________ "Beauty's Shadow."
Part-Human2 04-17-07, 09:34 PM	According to the DMG (pg 49), a challenging encounter (uses 20% of the party's resources) for a party of 4 Erinyes PCs (with no class levels) would be a fight against 9 Erinyes (also with no levels). The difference being only ability scores, magic items owned and that the player's are able to better utilize their characters than a DM can utilize 9 "monsters." Obviously LA vs CR fails in some instances.
Jaxgaret 04-17-07, 09:56 PM	Edit to add that Jaxgaret is probably right (even if I am not sure his post was directed to me). Arrogant posts and the posting of opinions as if they were holy canon tends to set my off and my posts become too combative. I will try to be less aggressive in the future. I wasn't directing my post at you, but if you feel like it applies to you, then it probably does apply. :) Positive posting > negative posting
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 09:59 PM	As I said it is easy to get protection at level 17, or 16. You are merely stating it is not which is completely falacious. Wake up, you don’t even need a wizard. So where are you getting this mysterious spell turning? Someone must be casting it for you. Or did you mean this: (Ring of) Spell Turning Up to three times per day on command, this simple platinum band automatically reflects the next nine levels of spells cast at the wearer, exactly as if spell turning had been cast upon the wearer. Strong abjuration; CL 13th; Forge Ring, spell turning; Price 98,280 gp. ... almost 100k gp. So penalize them with huge LA and then make them fork out 100k for an item absolutely essential to their survival... And easily foiled if the enemy caster hits you with a quickened something else instead. Again, utterly stupid and misleading statement. A PC would have the DC far higher. Likely around 30. Since all the boosters the wizard has she has also, and a starting base 10 points higher. Uh, I'm fairly sure DC 30 is impossible at level 16. So, even assuming +10 charisma racial, that's 28 starting. You get at best 2 level pumps, but since they're racial HD the DM might think you've already gotten them! But lets call it 30. +6 item = 36 charisma. If we imagine you've somehow gotten +4 tome of charisma (only possible at level 16 with wizard planar binding cheese, which you dislike so much), that's 40. +15 from charisma, +4 spell level, 10 +4 +15 = 29, 31 with Ability Focus. You also put an 18 into charisma to start and a substantial fraction of your available resources. And you're barely ahead of the wizard who gets to do it on 1 target/level with Mass Charm Monster and not nearly the resource expenditure you made. (If we're going to maximize the wizard, +2 SpFoc/GSpFoc), 18+2 racial starting int +4 level +6 enh +4 tome = 34, 8th level spell. 10 + 8 + 12 +2 = 32. Wizard comes out ahead, and wanted to maximize his intelligence anyway). Actually, i'm not sure you can take Ability Focus for spell-likes... anyone know offhand? More misleading theories. Holy word is very rarely used against PCs because they are rarely fighting angels or good clerics. And it is negated by a second level spell. Word of Chaos then? You fight chaotic creatures all the time, right? Oh please. There is a cheap item anyone can have at level 12. I appear to not own that splatbook... Yes. Now the wizard is able to see a rogue sneaking on him. How amazing! With no skill and likely a dumped wisdom score. Your logic is astonishing. AMF radiates strong abjuration from a hemisphere 10' in radius. That's frickin huge. Where are you going to hide it? Oh sure, the wizard can't see the rogue - he doesn't need to. "Antimagic field at 12'o'clock!" The effect is quite large, since the rogue can just start a grapple and kill the wizard at leisure. You mean assuming the wizard isn't currently being a War Troll? Or a Kelvezu? Polymorph ftw. As I just showed, it is an excellent and very easy way to kill arcane casters. No, you showed a wizard who didn't permanency Arcane Sight (and who doesn't) is vulnerable. AMF still radiates abjuration, and is therefore almost impossible to hide from someone permanently detecting magic. As I said a few posts back I don’t think the Erynies is LA+7. I certainly wouldn’t play one as LA+7 for the reasons I stated back then. Still, given the slas and high abilities, and giving the wealth of a level 16 character, I don’t think it is an easy victim of any monster. I'm sure there are plenty of CR 16 monsters that don't kill it. I don't think it manages to kill many CR 16 monsters however. Consider that even with a +5 weapon you're going to be around +22 to hit (you might be able to push that into +25 territory, but you'll have to lose some Charisma). Your AC is ballpark 30. You could have more, but you need that Ring of Spell Turning. Your spell-likes have a CL of 12 (ouch SR hurts). CR 16 MM monsters (note 4 of them is an EL+4 encounter, which is a suitable encounter for a 16th level party - meaning you'll need to solo or at least hold your own against one). I'm ignoring Dragons because they are horribly CRed. Planetar: Def: hp 133, AC32, Will +15, SR30. Your best offense is melee attacks (hitting 50%) Off: Att +23 before buffing, Mass Charm Monster DC24 CL17 (50% chance to work against you), PWStun (auto stuns you), Cleric casting as a 17th level cleric (typically prepares Holy Word). Conclusion: Owns Erinyes. Devil, Cornugon: Def: 172hp, AC35, Will +15, SR28. Your best offense is melee, even though you hit <50%, SR 28 means only 20% chance of Charm going through. Off: +25 attack (reach), Fort DC 27 or be stunned on hit, some spell-likes no one cares about. Conclusion: Melee slugfest, twice Erinyes hp, hits more often. Owns Erinyes. Golem, Greater Stone: Def: 271hp, AC 27, Will +14 (Imm mind-affecting), SR infinite. Your best offense is minor image... Its mindless, it never tries to interact with the illusion. Off: +42 slam, slow. Conclusion: You win, because you can cast Minor Image. A 3rd level wizard also wins this encounter. Ho-hum. Nigthtshade, Nightwalker: Def: 178hp, AC32, Will +19, SR 29. Best offense is attacking it... Hitting 50% of the time. Def: +24 slam, DC24 paralyze, some DC 18-21 SoDs (no one cares). Conclusion: slugfest that you lose, but not very fast. That's all the non-dragon CR16s in the MM. Huh, interesting, Charm Monster is totally useless in all of these, because they all have SR high enough you're not getting through 80+% of the time. (Your wizard buddy has a 4CL edge on you, and possibly has Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration, for another 20% swing each. He also has spells that don't allow SR). Except of course, stuff like a level 20 caster that starts with Time Stop and opens 3 Gates for Solars. Which means a TPK regardless of what the level 16 party does. But hey... it was a valid encounter, yeah. Good luck finding new players for the game, too. :rolleyes: But its hardly objectionable for 20th level casters to cast suboptimal spells is it? Like PWK (kills the erinyes), or Meteor Swarm (DC you don't make it, expects to deal enough hp to drop you). That is good, it saves me reposting if anyone ask. As for "lost the argument" I have no idea of what you mean. I can’t lose an argument when WotC officially rules in favor (no, wait! Even more restrictively) of what I was saying. Sorry, Junior, you can’t “win” an argument against the correct, official, interpretation of the rules. You can end up looking like a stubborn fool by denying the obvious, though. You do that very well. Amazingly, my interpretation was how most players were already playing the game. The mystery behind this astonishing fact is that the -intention- of the rules also counts. And the intention of the rules was pretty clear, even if the actual text was confusing and easy to twist in the favor of powergaming. Yet a simple inquire to CustServ was more than enough to dispel any doubt. Squirrelloid, please, keep your rulelawyering and bizarre houserules for yourself. Thank you. What the rules in the rulebook say are not bizarre houserules. CustServe is often wrong - they are not an 'official' source, and cannot "make rulings". They are supposed to interpret the rules. The fact that they rarely bother to reference the rules, and the contradictions between what the rules say and what they say, often lead one to suspect they never even *read* the rules. I've said it before and i'll say it again. This is not me against WotC. This is CustServe vs. the rulebook (and therefore the game designers). I trust the rulebook, thank you.
Argaud 04-17-07, 10:00 PM	According to the DMG (pg 49), a challenging encounter (uses 20% of the party's resources) for a party of 4 Erinyes PCs (with no class levels) would be a fight against 9 Erinyes (also with no levels). The difference being only ability scores, magic items owned and that the player's are able to better utilize their characters than a DM can utilize 9 "monsters." Obviously LA vs CR fails in some instances. More than enough, honestly. Compare the Erinyes that Balthanon just posted with the stock Erinyes. The gear makes her so superior that the NPC Erinyes can barely land a hit. AC 35 vs 23, to hit +20 vs +14-15, 109 hp vs 85, better saves, better DC, better feats, etc. And that with level 10 gear. The NPCs have not a prayer. I doubt 16 Erinyes NPCs (A ECL16 encounter) could be more than a speed bump to 4 Erynyes PCs with level 16 gear. (Which does not mean I truly believe they are LA+7, it is just that normal Erinyes are no longer very scary after level 12 or so, even in large numbers).
Jaxgaret 04-17-07, 10:06 PM	According to the DMG (pg 49), a challenging encounter (uses 20% of the party's resources) for a party of 4 Erinyes PCs (with no class levels) would be a fight against 9 Erinyes (also with no levels). The difference being only ability scores, magic items owned and that the player's are able to better utilize their characters than a DM can utilize 9 "monsters." Obviously LA vs CR fails in some instances. According to d20srd.org's encounter calculator, sixteen CR8 Erinyes NPCs vs. four ECL16 Erinyes PCs makes for a "Challenging" EL.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 10:24 PM	Well, if we're going to randomly double the treasure, I suppose I can go along with that-- the Erinyes should have the same opportunity. If we're going to take out a party member, I would probably go with the druid actually. It's going to be almost impossible to hit if you allow the whole monk's belt/wild armor thing but with a +8 to hit on the majority of its attacks and rather mediocre damage... eh. The barkskins might be nice for the other party members, but it sounds like those are being used exclusively on itself to wow and amaze us with the AC. The Erinyes on the other hand, can let the rogue flank from almost anywhere without worrying about the mischance from blink; stun opponents a number of times to further reduce the battlefield; do more damage than those flame strikes on a full attack; and also has a weapon that allows her excellent perception skills to benefit the party by automatically casting fairie fire on any enemy she strikes. She is a full blown scout with better skill modifiers than the halfling (with far superior mobility), has a number of abilities that mimic the wizards abilities, out hits and damages both the cleric and druid, has almost double the hp of any character other than the druid, and has an AC and mischance that will likely result in her getting hit less than any of the characters in the party as well (fewer lucky 20s than the druid). Personally, that's not the type of character I mind playing. Truthfully, the only thing I was dissappointed in was that I couldn't fit in Flyby Attack-- of course, if you really want to call it ECL 9, then the character could also take a level of fighter or better swordsage to free up a few feats. I have to confess I'm having trouble reading your statblock - i hate the new monster statblocks so much. I'll also note I only used core material, and you used other stuff. That's fine, but I can do a *lot* with non-core spells/feats/etc... to improve the posted characters. Feel free to add a level of something. I maintain its ECL 9. Also, that's what item crafting feats do, they double your effective wealth at the cost of fairly miniscule xp relative to wealth gain. (You've spent in the ballpark of what the druid spent for xp.) This is of course an instance of a party playing well together - so yes, if you keep the cleric and wizard, you can 'use' their craft feats by paying the xp for it. (and you have 5k free xp for being halfway to level 11). I can't tell what racial stat modifiers you used. Remember my claim is that stat modifiers derived from assuming the entry has elite array is ECL = HD. (I know it isn't actually created with elite array, but it leads to more balanced stats). Doing that takes a total of somewhere around +10 off a monsters total racial modifiers. (having calculated your stats, you clearly used the +10/+10/+10/+4/+8/+10 version, rather than the +8/+6/+6 (arrange to three phys) +6int +8wis +8 cha based on subtracting elite array from an erinyes stats, which is an extra +10. You seem to have also applied 2 level bonuses, which are already included in the 9HD monsters stats by my method. (or reduce to +6 all physical with 2 level pumps to stats). So you're over by +12 on overall attributes (+6 total stat modifiers)). You marginally out-scout the halfling (and he equals your hide if i don't steal a point from there for Sleight of Hand - but he needs 1 rank of sleight of hand for free-action drawing his 'hidden' flasks.) Of course, you can't search for traps or disarm them, but you can be sneaky - competing with the rogue without actually making him irrelevant. Wow, you bought Tumble cross-class... heh. I should point out the rogue doesn't need a flank-buddy. He throws flasks (ranged, no flanking), and has blink from his ring, which denies his targets dex to AC, so he always gets SA. Honestly, that's exactly the kind of thing I want to see from a melee character - good damage, decent AC, and able to do things outside of combat (sneak, face, etc...). If I was planning for you in the party I'd shift the rogue's investment away from some of the social skills to broaden the party's capabilities. This is a competing paradigm with the Druid (fewer hp, lower AC, higher damage per hit but fewer attacks), and different skill/ability sets to compete against the druid's spellcasting. Your melee is probably better, your tanking worse, and your his spellcasting is better than your skill/ability set, but you could at least play in the same party, and are a viable alternative. (something i don't think standard melee classes provide). I think i miscalculated the Druid's damage, actually. I'll have to go check that, but i think i forgot some modifiers. Also remember the druid has pounce, which means it always gets a full attack, and can always fall back on spellcasting (and has awesome spells such as Wall of Thorns). Also note the Druid is more than willing to share the Barkskin love if the party plans on resting after 6-7 hours. The extended barkskins cast while the Bead of Karma is active last 280 minutes, which is almost 7 hours. Which is a reasonable adventuring day. I just plan for them all to target the druid because people will say "You can't rest yet, it hasn't been almost 24 hours of constant grueling adventuring!" - i'd never do that in a real campaign, that would be Barkskins all around (yeah, i can even squeeze a 4th one in there).
Balthanon 04-17-07, 10:28 PM	But its hardly objectionable for 20th level casters to cast suboptimal spells is it? Like PWK (kills the erinyes), or Meteor Swarm (DC you don't make it, expects to deal enough hp to drop you). Let's see... with level 10 equipment, the Erinyes that I posted had hp of 107. That was with a 14 in Con and a +2 item. More than 101-- the wizard just wasted that Power Word (Kill). For the meteor swarm, I suppose we'll assume that they don't try to hit the touch AC (which might have better success, though the touch AC would likely go up from its current 21). We'll go with a DC of 29 (spell level + 10 Int bonus)-- my Erinyes had a Reflex save of +17 with a +4 Dex item and a +2 cloak of resistance-- up those to max and that boosts the Reflex save to +21. Hmm... 8 or better to succeed, but I guess it's a given that she fails. Better roll up that damage-- oh wait, she's immune, no point. ;) This just isn't a given frankly-- there are spells that can take down the Erinyes at +7 LA without much trouble-- those that are level based. Outside of that? She's not as far off as you'd like to believe. (Also just noticed you posted on the page before this-- for the stats, I used the default that an Erinyes is provided. Reducing that by 10 would drop the stats slightly. The druid doesn't always get to Pounce though-- pouncing requires charging, and that isn't a given. Terrain can shut that down pretty quickly.)
Nathreet 04-17-07, 10:50 PM	Saved ya some sifting: It's basically because the system is designed to punish people that want to play as soemthing other than the standard PHB races, unless you want to be a weird type of elf. Although there are a few other decent monster races too. And this is hardly the full answer, as the rest of the quotes will show: CR, or challenge rating, is meant to put the one creature, as the sole combat for the day, against a party of 4-6 PCs of the stated level. Not 1 vs 1. Several abilities will have a much more significant impact on long-term survivability of a PC as opposed to a single-combat NPC. Not looking particularly at the erinyes, I'll toss out a few examples. >> Anything with fast healing or regeneration can go through an entire adventure without draining a single one of the cleric's healing spells. In a martial class (fighter, barbarian, monk, etc), they can fight almost indefinitely. >> Natural armor on a PC stacks with any worn armor, the Mage Armor spell, and other forms of protection. The majority of monsters don't wear armor, and few if any wear full plate. >> A flying monster forces PCs to use range weapons or spells. A flying PC becomes immune to any monster without a ranged attack or flight of its own. Does this mean that both the CR and ECL are correct? No, it doesn't. But it is certainly reasonable for a creature to have a very large disparity between CR and ECL. Various wotc personnel have tackled this issue. Though I am not sure just how much they believe their own explanations. This is addressed in a few areas in the FAQ. Sean Reynolds briefly touched on this issue here (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/ecl_vs_cr.html) as well. Also everyone has failed to mention thus far a monster doesn't get equipment equal to the standard PC of its CR. An eiyrness has what? A magic sword and some fancy armor maybe right? A level 15 pc has a crap load of magical gear, and a pc eiyrness has all that fancy fun gear. The PC erinyes also has higher ability scores than a standard erinyes. The creature in the Monster Manual is supposed to be an average member of its race, while a PC is inherently above average. That's the whole answer in a nutshell.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 10:57 PM	Let's see... with level 10 equipment (sort of, given the crafting bit), the Erinyes that I posted had hp of 107. That was with a 14 in Con and a +2 item. Oops, more than 101-- wizard just wasted that Power Word (Kill). For the meteor swarm, I suppose we'll assume that they don't try to hit the touch AC. We'll go with a DC of 29 (spell level + 10 Int bonus)-- my Erinyes had a Reflex save of +17 with a +4 Dex item and a +2 cloak of resistance-- up those to max and that boosts the Reflex save to +21. Hmm... 8 or better to succeed, but I guess it's a given that she fails. Better roll up that damage-- oh wait, she's immune, no point. This just isn't a given frankly-- there are spells that can take down the Erinyes at +7 LA without much trouble-- those that are level based. Outside of that? She's not as far off as you'd like to believe. bah, meteor swarm is fire damage... I never use evocation spells... imagine its an energy substituted meteor swarm and go from there... (Yes, I always take evocation as a banned school...). DC 29 is really low too. Casters should be hitting +12 stat modifiers easily, for DC 31, + and Spell Focus feats. Also, as I already pointed out, your stats are too high for the method I proposed to convert an Erinyes into a PC race. Which is dramatically overestimating its defenses as an ECL 9 character. Admittedly they are what you'd use for the ECL 16 version. I'll confess I may have underestimated its defensive suite (although its not out of line with level 10 characters in a lot of ways - the AC is certainly reasonable for a level 10 meleer, as are the saves for a number of multi-class builds, including PrCs). But its offenses are horribly lacking for an ECL 16 character - low attack, low CL (hard time piercing level-appropriate SR), etc... (And not immune to PW:Stun, btw, which has 150 hp cap, and is a spell level lower, and basically death. Nor will it save her from Word of Chaos, which is a caster-level based effect).
Balthanon 04-17-07, 11:10 PM	bah, meteor swarm is fire damage... I never use evocation spells... imagine its an energy substituted meteor swarm and go from there... (Yes, I always take evocation as a banned school...). DC 29 is really low too. Casters should be hitting +12 stat modifiers easily, for DC 31, + and Spell Focus feats. (And not immune to PW:Stun, btw, which has 150 hp cap, and is a spell level lower, and basically death. Nor will it save her from Word of Chaos, which is a caster-level based effect). 24d6 damage still only averages out to 84 damage, assuming a failed reflex. Half that otherwise. DC 29 is probably reasonable, maybe even high, for an NPC-- they don't have the kind of wealth PCs do to throw around unless its a BBEG generally. Going with the elite array, even that requires a +4 inherent bonus without a racial int bonus. (15 + 5 level + 6 enhancement + 4 inherent/racial) Most PCs are going to have trouble hitting a +12 bonus to their casting stat prior to Epic levels frankly. Assuming that the party is playing nicely together, I would probably say that Word of Chaos/Holy Word/etc... would definitely be a case where greater spell immunity would be merited. Those are limited enough and a great enough threat that keeping that in reserve is worthwhile-- potentially even worth putting together a custom item if your DM allows it. For Power Word (stun) again-- this is going to work on at least half the party in all likelihood though probably not your standard melee/tank admittedly.
Squirrelloid 04-17-07, 11:22 PM	I'm really curious Balthanon, if you refigure your Erinyes build's stats with my racial mod method (Erinyes racial attribute modifications become +8 to one phys, +6 to other two, +6 int, +8 Wis, +8 Cha - either no level stat pumps at 4th and 8th or make all phys stats +6 and gain those two level stat pumps), how the character turns out. Give it a 10th HD (Warblade?) assuming the 9 Racial HD are ECL 9. Because my extrapolating in my head what that does to the character leads me to the conclusion that it looks level appropriate at level 9. Also, I think I'll probably want to force spell-like CL = HD+3 (sort of like having taken Spell Penetration, since that's the only real effect of CL on those spell-likes, identical to CL 12 with 9 racial HD at level 9) and DC = 10 +1/2 HD + Cha Mod, just to make sure they scale appropriately with level. (on the ECL 16 interpretation) I'm still not sure what an Erinyes is supposed to do offensively against level appropriate threats. I analyzed CR 16 monsters above, and my conclusion was basically the Erinyes is a subpar melee threat (or archer threat I suppose), because its spell-likes virtually never pierce the SR of those monsters. The only CR 16 monster it comes anywhere close to winning against is the Greater Stone Golem, and a 3rd level wizard could duplicate the Erinyes performance. Edit: Amusingly enough, playing a C/G Erinyes actually protects you from all the Dictum/Blasphemy/Holy Word/Word of Chaos spells, because you're C/G [Lawful] [Evil]. You're also internally conflicted, but hey, that's RP-bait right there).
Balthanon 04-17-07, 11:43 PM	I'm really curious Balthanon, if you refigure your Erinyes build's stats with my racial mod method (Erinyes racial attribute modifications become +8 to one phys, +6 to other two, +6 int, +8 Wis, +8 Cha - either no level stat pumps at 4th and 8th or make all phys stats +6 and gain those two level stat pumps), how the character turns out. That will basically drop its AC by 2, its hit by 1, its damage by 5, and hit points will probably drop by about 10. It recovers that partially in two levels, since the two points that were placed in Int to keep it baseline go into Strength most likely to start it at 15. If I were actually putting the character together with the expectation of leveling though, it would probably be Swordsage levels rather than Warblade to start though. Because by ECL 11 (if you're doing it that way) that also adds Wisdom to AC and the Erinyes is now rivalling the druid for AC. For the higher level adjustment Erinyes, I don't know that it is actually an ECL 16-- but with better weapons on the one I made, the attack bonus could go up considerably. The school focus weapons out of Tome of Battle would add +3 on their own-- you would also have better stat boosters and other magic items to start making up the difference. 2d4+23 damage isn't amazing at 16th level, but it's a decent enough base off of which to work and inserting hit and run tactics with Flyby Attack could enhance the survivability further. (I'm thinking there was actually a set item in Magic Compendium that granted that now...)
Cael 04-17-07, 11:53 PM	To be honest, CR8 for an Erinyes is a bit too low. I have had one totally decimate my 10th level party. Humans on a ledge in a dark cave holding a torch. It got nasty real fast with the dark angel flying around over the gorge in the darkness...
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 12:04 AM	Squirelloid, it seems from some things you've said in your posts that combat in your campaigns is essentially a Player vs. DM based conflict where the DM tries his best to develop CR-appropriate encounters to TPK the PCs, and the players try their best to be prepared to hose anything that comes their way that looks remotely suspicious. In other words, you're playing a strict wargame - not that there's anything wrong with that. Am I wrong about this?
runestar 04-18-07, 12:12 AM	The erinyes also ends up losing 4 bonus stat boosts(since it will not get any over the course of its 16 lv progression. Have you factored that in?:P
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 01:08 AM	Squirelloid, it seems from some things you've said in your posts that combat in your campaigns is essentially a Player vs. DM based conflict where the DM tries his best to develop CR-appropriate encounters to TPK the PCs, and the players try their best to be prepared to hose anything that comes their way that looks remotely suspicious. In other words, you're playing a strict wargame - not that there's anything wrong with that. Am I wrong about this? At one level when I post on these boards I'm just assuming that characters and monsters will use abilities that are available to them in an intelligent way. This has nothing to do with my DMing, but everything to do with the fact that CR 17+ challenges start getting access to level 9 spells (not every one, but some will), etc... At which point characters who reasonably expect to face those challenges should be able to overcome those challenges, and should be able to mount an effective offense against those challenges. If they can't, they aren't really level 17 characters because they don't have level-appropriate abilities, and that's a problem. I mostly approach this from a player perspective. The DMG/Monster Manual tells you that these are the types of encounters you will have to deal with - if they totally hose you then you need to do something else. Ie, I'm evaluating the character's abilities in the context of the monsters it will likely face, both as a party and as individuals. As to my actual DMing, it really depends on the campaign. Most campaigns I've DMed have been in the 1-12 level range. Admittedly, I've been DMing over 15 years at this point, so that pushes well back into 2nd edition. For most of those campaigns, I don't actually use CR at all, just my sense of what is balanced or not (including a lot of custom monsters) for the party at hand. Ie, I make adjustments for the classes being played and the skill of the players involved. At which point my goal is to make encounters feel challenging, usually while letting the PCs win. This usually means not giving monsters abilities like blasphemy at will (Balor, I'm looking at you), because they lead to really stupid intelligent encounter dynamics. Giving monsters sane (but level-appropriate) abilities means I can play the monster optimally and not expect to TPK the party. I've also been known to give monsters subpar damage/offense and insane defense (gobs and gobs of hp, etc...) to have drawn-out encounters that eventually put the players near death while allowing everyone to actually make use of their abilities in a tactical manner. (Most D+D combats in the 6+ level range in 3.x last ~2-3 rounds in my experience, which is barely enough time to do much per character). So, most of my campaigns are actually fairly beginner friendly, because I DM for the characters as they are, not as the rules expect them to be. I'm also very much a "yes, but..." DM when it comes to player options. If they want something I generally say yes, and then figure out how its going to work. "Can I play a demonic puppy with 3 heads?" 'Uh, sure... let me come up with... something...' "Can I play an anthropomorphic Busycotypus canaliculatus?" 'Would you like that dextral or sinistral?' (it's a marine snail, don't think about it too hard). That said, I also have great fun taking low CR monsters and making them far more challenging based on situation, but the goal is to scare, not kill, the players. And sometimes you just want to play Spelljammer with Immoveable Rods so you can totally break physics (or similarly silly setting/ability interactions). At which point DMing is more about creating entertaining situations, not using encounters to challenge the players. "I cast Reverse Gravity... in zero-G!" "So lets see, the local gravitational field is mostly established by the creatures, right?" "Uh-oh". See Also: pirate campaigns with wizards. "I cast wall of iron on the deck of the opposing ship." "... it sinks." or "I'm going to cast Prismatic Sphere while standing on the bowsprit - you can use it as a battering ram!" "Lets see... i think the other ship just got randomly planeshifted. While on fire." "Ouch." ---------- There are times, however, when based on player complaints I've 'stepped up' as DM to try and thrash the party. A recent high-level non-caster campaign i was in with rotating DM got up to 15th level before we pulled the plug. (characters had ~16th level gear as 15th characters). Starting around 8th level everyone started noticing that the encounters weren't challenging, even though we were consistently pushing into CR N+2-4 range. Then the game of diverging numbers started to wreak havoc with DM attempts to 'step up' in the 10-12 level range, such that something which was scary for one PC would thrash the weakest PC. By 15th level we'd wrapped the RNG on AC and saves with at least one character (ie, no monster that could hit him on anything more than 20 could ever miss the lowest AC PC, etc...), and no published monster had any hope of hitting that PC. We ended the campaign because players couldn't even play the same game anymore - diverging numbers dominated the play atmosphere. And combats typically lasted all of two rounds tops. (We were also pushing CR N+6 on a regular basis). And that was without primary casters. (Admittedly, they were also some really complex melee builds). DMing in that campaign forced you to play really aggressively in combat to hose the players, and hope that resulted in putting them near the edge without pushing over into a TPK. The fact that PCs were shelling out serious cash for immunities made it much harder to actually achieve a TPK though. The campaign I'm currently DMing is a stop-gap between more serious campaigns. (Working on a lot of system redesign at the moment). Its using Frank + K's RoW, Dungeonomicon, et al. plus any WotC material players show me or I own, strict RAW interpretation, I generate random encounters of an EL I feel is appropriate (I have 8 players, so that makes it a little wonky, but I made tables by CR of monsters from MM-MM3, FF, and a bunch of other splats that I use to generate encounters), I create a reasonably random map. They kick in a door, and I try my best to kill them. Dead characters get replaced by a clone shortly thereafter. In a lot of ways its a straight-up playtest of Frank and K's material, and its easy to prep for, and there's no penalty for me going for the jugular because the PCs are just going to get 'cloned'. I'm averaging a little less than 1 PC death/combat, and have never killed more than 3 in a combat. (The 3 cockatrices at level 3 were brutal, but didn't last very long either). Average combat time is ~3-4 rounds. We started at level 1. (All of my players declined to play a DMM cleric, that actually makes me sad - its one of the few things I don't normally allow). Most recent combat was 3 Darktentacles against a APL 6 (but 7 players present), killed one PC and almost got a 2nd in 3 rounds of combat before they died. (But it was a beefy tank that died). I'm actually finding Frank and K's material means I need to use kid gloves less because I'm not generally in danger of TPKing the party. (Party composition: Dungeonomicon Assassin and Dungeonomicon Monk, a RoW fighter, and a Tome of Fiends class - Conduit of the Lower Planes iirc. Plus a Kender Rogue, an Awakened Bobcat Rogue, a Druid, and a Miniature Unicorn Cleric - although the 'Unicorn' bit is heavily rewritten to be a single racial HD with reduced abilities - esp attribute racial mods). One campaign that needed more aggressive DMing was a 20th level campaign designed to explore the epic rules when they were brand new. (Rotating DM). Combats were trivial throughout its short lifespan, in part because many of the people who DMed hadn't grasped all the spellcaster implications of the 2nd->3rd transition yet, and in part because no one seriously played the monsters to their potential. Really, it depends on whether you think combat should be a challenge or not. Because combats seriously last <4 rounds at most levels 1-15 that i've played reasonably extensively, and I have every reason to believe combats last less long at higher levels. Monsters have to be lethal because they won't live long enough to make the players feel like they were in danger otherwise. If you want a romp, then the DM can downplay the monsters and every build can play. If you actually follow the printed monsters, it requires optimized characters to tackle the higher levels and survive, and lots of planning ahead based on the types of attacks you know you're going to have to suck down. Unfortunately, making combat challenging necessarily opens the door to TPK in the higher levels, because it doesn't take much to push it over the edge. I consider this a design flaw. Edit: More generally, my usual DMing goals include simulationist and narrativist creative agendas, often relative to a custom world. However, I'm willing and able to 'step up' as a gamist if my players are asking for it.
runestar 04-18-07, 02:59 AM	Squirelloid, it seems from some things you've said in your posts that combat in your campaigns is essentially a Player vs. DM based conflict where the DM tries his best to develop CR-appropriate encounters to TPK the PCs, and the players try their best to be prepared to hose anything that comes their way that looks remotely suspicious. In other words, you're playing a strict wargame - not that there's anything wrong with that. How does one draw the line between deliberately trying to hose the players and simply playing a creature to the best of its capabilities(which I assume is the assumption behind its cr). The latter sometimes have the possibility of resulting in serious consequences. Do I then abstain from said tactic just because it is detrimental to the party, and fall back on weaker strategies which lack the "oomph"? For example, a centaur is treated as mounted with regards to a charge. Giving it a lance and the spirited charge feat(which they are allowed to take without meeting the prereqs) seems commonsensical enough, until you realize it deals (2d6+6)*3, or 6d6+18 damage on a successful charge, which no lv3 fighter can withstand. Or give it 2 lvs of fighter for power attack and shock trooper. So scratch that, as cool a concept a centaur charger may be, because the potential cost is ultimately too high for the party to bear. Or take a spellcaster specializing in save-or-die spells. For him to be of some challenge to a higher lv party, some of his death spells will have to go through(one way or another). But this means that at least half the party will be expected to die. How then would you adjudicate this?
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-18-07, 03:07 AM	See, there are very few abilities i put into that 'PCs shouldn't have them' category. Like extra standard actions each round. That's broken. Greater Teleport at will (Self only)? At level 9? Whatever. You're going to be a fighter anyway, might as well get something that will save you from Forcecage. Well, the forcecage I could care less about. But it's not dimension door at will, it's greater teleport, meaning you can constantly jump around the campaign world at will. That has potential to be problematic depending on the campaign you're running. I'm not saying it's impossible to give a PC that ability, it's just that it's something you're going to have to watch. Troll Regeneration? Don't make me laugh. "Hey boss, this one keeps regenerating!" "Keep coup de gracing him, I'm going to start a fire." Regeneration only means you save miniscule amounts of money on Wands of Lesser Vigor. I don't even care. You'd have to hand out Regeneration 20 before I'd care. At all. And even Regen 20 isn't *that* high for mid-high levels. Well actually regen is a bit more useful than that. Remember that regeneration isn't fast healing, regeneration means you can't die. You're not saving money on just wands of CLW or whatever, you're saving money on raise deads. Everytime you would have been killed by damage, you're instead only knocked out for a little bit. That's a lot of money saved and if you're a fighter type, it pretty much makes any idea of resource depletion non-existent for you. I really recommend changing regeneration to just plain fast healing. That's an ability you can give PCs and not particularly care about. Regeneration can create a great deal of problems that most DMs may not want to deal with. Given that the CR system is based on resource depletion, that's another fairly important point. See, i'm more of a 'sure, we can make that work' type of person. I also have no problems allowing meleers and skill monkeys access to high powered (with accompanying racial hit dice) races - they have to compete with spellcasters who already get all that and a bag of chips. Well it depends on the level. Having greater teleport at will probably isn't a big deal at level 13+, but at level 9, that's going to be a major ability. The basic problem with major abilities isn't necessarily that PCs have them, but more about what PCs have to give up to get them. If you're making a combat erinyes for instance, you're comparing that to a regular warrior character. So if your erinyes can teleport at will and has true seeing, you're going to have to give up some of your other abilities to get that (which are almost certainly combat abilities). At some point, you've given up so many combat abilities that you're no longer effective enough in combat to matter much.
Argaud 04-18-07, 10:21 AM	Actually, i'm not sure you can take Ability Focus for spell-likes... anyone know offhand? It is somewhat arguable, however: Ability Focus [General] Choose one of the creature’s special attacks. Prerequisite Special attack. Benefit Add +2 to the DC for all saving throws against the special attack on which the creature focuses. Special A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time the creature takes the feat it applies to a different special attack. Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil Apparently the slas are "Special Attacks". Word of Chaos then? You fight chaotic creatures all the time, right? Oh yes, fear the Death Slaad! Or is there any other critter in the MM with Word of Chaos? (There might be some, but I couldn't find them). It won't kill the Erinyes, though, just render her confused for a while (and maybe banish her to Hell). With CL15 and CR13 that slaad is also going to deafen and stun all the members of the party that aren't chaotic. Not bad for a CR13 critter. This reminds me Holy Word won't kill her either unless it is cast at a CL=HD+10. So you need a CL19 even for a normal Erinyes. Assuming the rest of the party are level 16 no-LA, it will also blind and deafen them all, which is an almost sure defeat for the team. Then again, stuff like this happens almost always when Holy Word/Dictum/Blasphemy/Word of Chaos hits the party at a CL>Levels. I appear to not own that splatbook... Underdark, page 73. AMF radiates strong abjuration from a hemisphere 10' in radius. That's frickin huge. Where are you going to hide it? Oh sure, the wizard can't see the rogue - he doesn't need to. "Antimagic field at 12'o'clock!" You mean assuming the wizard isn't currently being a War Troll? Or a Kelvezu? Polymorph ftw. How is the wizard detecting anti-magic? The spell makes impossible to use magic on the area it is affecting. And how is the Polymorph working inside the AMF? No, it is not working, sorry. The Contingency is not working either, and the Ring of Freedom of Moment? Nope. Foresight? Can't detect anything inside an AFM either. No, you showed a wizard who didn't permanency Arcane Sight (and who doesn't) is vulnerable. AMF still radiates abjuration, and is therefore almost impossible to hide from someone permanently detecting magic. You still need line of sight, which won't happen if the rogue is sneaking. That even assuming that a character can see the aura of the spell, which I doubt it is possible because the spell negates all magical effects, even detection magic. What the rules in the rulebook say are not bizarre houserules. CustServe is often wrong - they are not an 'official' source, and cannot "make rulings". They are supposed to interpret the rules. The fact that they rarely bother to reference the rules, and the contradictions between what the rules say and what they say, often lead one to suspect they never even *read* the rules. I've said it before and i'll say it again. This is not me against WotC. This is CustServe vs. the rulebook (and therefore the game designers). I trust the rulebook, thank you. In this regard I will just quote someone :rolleyes: Customer Service isn't an official source. They don't know what they're talking about. Sure, they work at WotC and are able to consult with the guys who actually write the game, but they never give you the same answer twice. Well, okay, actually their responses have been extremely consistent for years now, but they're STILL not an official source. Neither is the FAQ. The errata is official, but only sometimes. I prefer to rely on the much more authoritative source, "Some guy on the Character Optimization Board."
runestar 04-18-07, 10:38 AM	Even as I agree about the statement regarding cust serv's accuracy, I have some queries of my own. Specifically, how do you tell the difference between a ruling which is unreasonable but accurate as per the RAW, and a ruling which "ought to be that way, but arguably contradicts the rules?" I ask because there is a clear difference. For example, I once emailed cust serv about a hydra and AoOs. Their answer was that it gets to use all its heads for each AoO. I am sure there will be those who will object violently to this, citing stuff such as "being too overpowering", and that they should only get to attack with 1 of their heads. Does this mean that cust serv is wrong? Not necessarily. Can they be faulted for interpreting a rule as it was written? Then there is the whole fiasco regarding iron heart surge and how it can neuter AMFs and epic spells. A literal interpretation of said ability suggests that they are not incorrect, yet no dm would obviously subscribe to their take. Again, is this their fault? They do not write the rules. They merely interpret them. So again, I ask. How does one tell when cust serv is correct or wrong? I noticed that whenever a ruling comes up which is contrary to a player's belief, they will disregard it, claiming that cust serv is not always correct. But since they are not always correct, this also means that they have been right before. Do you only believe them when their ruling coincides with your own beliefs?:confused: I ask because I am so confused now...:weep:
Grand Theft Otto 04-18-07, 10:46 AM	But, as you and I both know, there is a reason for why it was set up that way. Experienced gaming groups can feel free to houserule ECLs and LAs down to what they feel is appropriate, and with you as an example, do so; a gaming group full of people who are new to the game may see monsters-as-PCs and, if they are equivalent in power to the most powerful base classes, may never even play an LA+0 race, and never get pulled into the medieval swords-and-sorcery world of D&D, because they're in a monster menagerie party that can be difficult to properly roleplay in. So good system design are intentionally poorly designed rules that rely on DM's to house rule? Why are we buying books again? Rules should be usable out of the box. If you cant do that, stop wasting my cash. Savage Species is the worst 3.0/3.5 book published to date, specifically because its designed NOT TO BE USED. At least the Tome of Magic sucked by accident.
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 10:50 AM	So good system design are intentionally poorly designed rules that rely on DM's to house rule? Why are we buying books again? Rules should be usable out of the box. If you cant do that, stop wasting my cash. Savage Species is the worst 3.0/3.5 book published to date, specifically because its designed NOT TO BE USED. At least the Tome of Magic sucked by accident. Replace the word "good" with "profitable", and you've hit the nail on the head. Also, the rules are usable out of the box. There are certain PC classes (you know which ones they are) that are just as gimped as monsters-as-PCs are - compared to caster classes. However, there is no PrC system in place for monster characters to improve upon their innate abilities, like subpar base classes have; that is the real weakness of using high-ECL monsters over classed LA+0 characters. If there were a plethora of such monster PrCs, there would be much less discussion about the power of the monsters themselves, but rather a discussion about the power of the PrCs they can take to improve upon their monster levels.
YabaTheWhat 04-18-07, 11:11 AM	But, as you and I both know, there is a reason for why it was set up that way. Experienced gaming groups can feel free to houserule ECLs and LAs down to what they feel is appropriate, and with you as an example, do so; a gaming group full of people who are new to the game may see monsters-as-PCs and, if they are equivalent in power to the most powerful base classes, may never even play an LA+0 race, and never get pulled into the medieval swords-and-sorcery world of D&D, because they're in a monster menagerie party that can be difficult to properly roleplay in.So good system design are intentionally poorly designed rules that rely on DM's to house rule? Why are we buying books again? Perhaps I can clarify this a bit. An experienced DM will know how to set up an adventure so that the creature's special abilities won't spoil the experience for everyone. An inexperienced DM may not know how to compensate for special abilities, and will often use a prepackaged module designed to challenge core race PCs. In such cases, the monster race will prove vastly more powerful than its core race counterparts, unless its ECL is set high enough to offset its tactical advantages. Using the erinyes as a specific example, picture a typical module. Somewhere along the way, the PCs get a map detailing a route to a warlord's mountain castle. His treasure vault, containing the item the PCs need to retrieve, lies somewhere in the castle, probably on the top floor. The weather is rough, so flying seems like a bad idea. Fortunately, the ECL 9 erinyes can teleport without error to the third floor of the castle, befriend (courtesy of Charm Monster) whomever he finds there, find out the treasure's location, bounce around a bit more until he finds the treasure room, then bounce back to the party. Adventure solved, and nobody else had any fun. For CR 15 adventures, a standard party could exhibit similar behavior, and modules would be made with this in mind.
Elendur 04-18-07, 11:36 AM	I think an erinyes would be fun to play as a 16th level character. She can contribute in combat but not dominate, and she has lots of fun things to do outside of combat. (I prefer a game that's about 50/50 combat/noncombat). You definitely have to play her as an erinyes though, not as some other role. ie fly around shooting arrows and causing confusing with charm monster. With her super high stats she'll have a good attack bonus, but not have as many attacks as the typical 16th level character would. Her main problem is hit points, and ac. For hit points, she should invest in con and con boosting items. If she bought up to 16 con and had a +4 item that'd add 45 points, giving her 130, decent for a skirmisher. For AC there's the obvious items, and I don't think it's unreasonable to trade out one of her feats for light armor. (Say shot on the run or rapid shot, since they are mutually exclusive). Otherwise invest in bracers. She has some scouting potential with movement abilities and senses, and it might be fun to push around some bearded devil minions occasionally. Plus she has a good mini.
Argaud 04-18-07, 11:40 AM	Even as I agree about the statement regarding cust serv's accuracy, I have some queries of my own. Specifically, how do you tell the difference between a ruling which is unreasonable but accurate as per the RAW, and a ruling which "ought to be that way, but arguably contradicts the rules?" I ask because there is a clear difference. For example, I once emailed cust serv about a hydra and AoOs. Their answer was that it gets to use all its heads for each AoO. I am sure there will be those who will object violently to this, citing stuff such as "being too overpowering", and that they should only get to attack with 1 of their heads. Does this mean that cust serv is wrong? Not necessarily. Can they be faulted for interpreting a rule as it was written? OW! I mean: OUCH! Yes, I would houserule here. It would be consciously houseruling, though. Hydras are already nasty enough. This has little to do with the ongoing discussion, though. Except maybe to show that maybe we all need some houserules in some degree. For AC there's the obvious items, and I don't think it's unreasonable to trade out one of her feats for light armor. (Say shot on the run or rapid shot, since they are mutually exclusive). Otherwise invest in bracers. Given the wealth of a level 16 character I would forget armor and go Bracers of AC8 and Monk's Belt for a +13 AC total (assuming average Wis and no +Wis items) and then Ring of Protection and Amulet of Natural Armor for about +8 more. That gives her AC43, pretty decent for a level 16 character with 9 HD. I am pretty sure she can get 50 without trying too hard. If she has 16HD of... I dunno, maybe Outsider9/Swordsage2/Blackguard2/Something3 then her AC might very well be 50 without even trying and it will be well over 60 at level 20. Although for utter brokenhood she can go straight Outsider9/Fiend of Possession5 and the game is basically over at level 14.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 11:56 AM	How is the wizard detecting anti-magic? The spell makes impossible to use magic on the area it is affecting. The AMF makes it impossible to use magic in the area it is affecting. Outside the AMF, the AMF radiates moderate abjuration. Its only inside the AMF that you can't detect. The AMF is a 10' diameter sphere. So you see a glowing 10' sphere (or part thereof) with detect magic, arcane sight, or similar. The only rules for magic auras are in detect magic, which tell you that all 6th level spells radiate a moderate power aura of the appropriate school. AMF only says magic is suppressed *inside* it, not that it is 'not magic' or 'doesn't radiate an aura'. Therefore it does, because all spells do, you just can't detect it while you're inside it because your detect magic doesn't work. And how is the Polymorph working inside the AMF? No, it is not working, sorry. The Contingency is not working either, and the Ring of Freedom of Moment? Nope. Foresight? Can't detect anything inside an AFM either. Polymorph: I was specifically responding to the 'rogue can grapple and kill wizard at his leisure' bit. You don't get a wizard inside an AMF - he sees its abjuration aura and teleports away, dim doors to long range, or similar. Actually, Foresight won't work inside an AMF, but nothing about the foresight spell requires it to affect the area inside an AMF if the caster isn't inside it. Ie, they get a brief flash of vision from the future, so they know the rogue-in-AMF is there and thus are not surprised. AMF cannot inhibit spell effects that don't occur inside the AMF. An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area,... foresight has a range of "personal" (or touch, but that's not cast on the wizard himself), which means as long as the wizard is outside the AMF it works normally. Including warning the wizard about people who are inside AMFs - the spell effect never extends into the AMF. You still need line of sight, which won't happen if the rogue is sneaking. That even assuming that a character can see the aura of the spell, which I doubt it is possible because the spell negates all magical effects, even detection magic. He has a 10' radius sphere about him that radiates abjuration magic. The wizard has arcane sight permanencied. He *notices*. You've made yourself the size of a gargantuan creature effectively, and even more inconveniently for you the AMF is a rigid sphere that doesn't deform or can't be creatively arranged (like limbs) to hide behind objects. Further, its not even part of you and *you can't see it* (Because you are inside it, so you can't use detect magic), so you don't even know where the border is. To a caster with arcane sight, you are a glowing 10' radius ball - it's kind of hard to miss that. And he only needs LoS to the aura in order to see it. In this regard I will just quote someone :rolleyes: Customer Service isn't an official source. They don't know what they're talking about. Sure, they work at WotC and are able to consult with the guys who actually write the game, but they never give you the same answer twice. Well, okay, actually their responses have been extremely consistent for years now, but they're STILL not an official source. Neither is the FAQ. The errata is official, but only sometimes. I prefer to rely on the much more authoritative source, "Some guy on the Character Optimization Board." So the PHB and DMG are wrong? The PHB and DMG are "some guy on the character optimization board"? Seriously, this is not me vs. CustServe, this is the PHB and DMG vs. CustServe. You don't need to say "X is so because Squirrelloid said it", you just need to go to the rules passages I've quoted/referenced (see relevant thread linked previously) to see that it is so. Stop making this Straw Man argument, my 'authority' has never been used once to justify my answer. My argument was documented with extensive reference and quotation of the actual rules - you have yet to make a rules-based argument, nor has CustServe. CustServe's job isn't to change rules, its to interpret existing rules. When their explanation contradicts existing rules, they are wrong, plain and simple. They don't have some magic ability to read the rules and get a better answer than someone else - the rules say what they say and anyone can read and interpret them. Some interpretations are better than others - the best interpretations match what the rules actually say. (And Caelic's actually wrong here on a point - working at WotC does not equate to being able to consult the guys who wrote the 3.5 core, as most of them no longer work at WotC, iirc). I would even be willing to bet Caelic would agree that when CustServe's answer contradicts the rules then they are wrong.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 12:01 PM	Even as I agree about the statement regarding cust serv's accuracy, I have some queries of my own. Specifically, how do you tell the difference between a ruling which is unreasonable but accurate as per the RAW, and a ruling which "ought to be that way, but arguably contradicts the rules?" I ask because there is a clear difference. For example, I once emailed cust serv about a hydra and AoOs. Their answer was that it gets to use all its heads for each AoO. I am sure there will be those who will object violently to this, citing stuff such as "being too overpowering", and that they should only get to attack with 1 of their heads. Does this mean that cust serv is wrong? Not necessarily. Can they be faulted for interpreting a rule as it was written? Then there is the whole fiasco regarding iron heart surge and how it can neuter AMFs and epic spells. A literal interpretation of said ability suggests that they are not incorrect, yet no dm would obviously subscribe to their take. Again, is this their fault? They do not write the rules. They merely interpret them. So again, I ask. How does one tell when cust serv is correct or wrong? I noticed that whenever a ruling comes up which is contrary to a player's belief, they will disregard it, claiming that cust serv is not always correct. But since they are not always correct, this also means that they have been right before. Do you only believe them when their ruling coincides with your own beliefs?:confused: I ask because I am so confused now...:weep: CustServe is only as good as their explanation in terms of the rules, which is usually zero. (Sometimes there is explanation, but it never references the rules). Which means evaluating their response means doing all the work yourself, so there's actually no point in asking CustServe a question. Anyway, go back to the specific rules on the question at hand. Whatever they tell you is guaranteed to be true, regardless of what CustServe said. (Make sure to check the errata, and the FAQ since WotC seems to like inserting errata into the FAQ). If the rules *do not and cannot cover something* (which may well be the case with hydrae, I haven't looked), then CustServe gets to make new rules (good until it is actually covered by the rules) - it is within their job to extend the ruleset to areas the rules do not cover. But questions that are answered by the rules already? RAW is necessarily correct, and CustServe does not have the power to change it. Edit: Specifically on the hydra question. Hydras can attack with all their heads at no penalty, even if they move or charge during the round. This is a wonderfully ambiguous piece of text. It says "attack with all their heads", which means each one is making an attack (and an AoO only grants an attack action). However, since they can make an attack with all of them at the end of a charge (which only gives you an attack action), the best way to read this is that one attack with each head is an attack action for a hydra! Therefore, CustServe is correct - they get an AoO = attack action = 1 attack with each head. Note, this means a hastened hydra gets a second attack with each head. Ouch indeed!
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 12:13 PM	I think an erinyes would be fun to play as a 16th level character. She can contribute in combat but not dominate, and she has lots of fun things to do outside of combat. (I prefer a game that's about 50/50 combat/noncombat). You definitely have to play her as an erinyes though, not as some other role. ie fly around shooting arrows and causing confusing with charm monster. With her super high stats she'll have a good attack bonus, but not have as many attacks as the typical 16th level character would. Her main problem is hit points, and ac. For hit points, she should invest in con and con boosting items. If she bought up to 16 con and had a +4 item that'd add 45 points, giving her 130, decent for a skirmisher. For AC there's the obvious items, and I don't think it's unreasonable to trade out one of her feats for light armor. (Say shot on the run or rapid shot, since they are mutually exclusive). Otherwise invest in bracers. She has some scouting potential with movement abilities and senses, and it might be fun to push around some bearded devil minions occasionally. Plus she has a good mini. Every monster at CR 16 in the MM has SR 28 or higher. The Erinyes has CL 12. That's at best a 20% chance of Charm Monster doing anything - conclusion: charm monster is a flavor ability for an Erinyes in a 16th level party. It doesn't matter. Decent attack bonus? Lets assume you max her dex (18+10 racial +6 enhancement +4 insight) = 38 for a +14. You have a +9 BAB and a +5 weapon. Total attack bonus is ballpark +28 - lets call it +30. An archer fighter at that level has +16 BAB, Dex (18+2 racial + 6 enh + 4 level + 4 insight) = 34 for a +12. Also has a +5 weapon. +33 without trying hard, and probably +35. The archer fighter also has 4 attacks per round to your 2. So you're hitting 25% less often than the *fighter* (who most people would agree is on the low end of power) *per attack*, get fewer attacks, and can't actually use charm monster to any reasonable effect. What do you do in combat? Use minor image? Its a *2nd level wizard spell*! You might marginally out-scout the rogue - the rogue has a heap of class abilities *that matter* that you don't have and a better skill set. You barely add anything to the party at that point.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 12:25 PM	Perhaps I can clarify this a bit. An experienced DM will know how to set up an adventure so that the creature's special abilities won't spoil the experience for everyone. An inexperienced DM may not know how to compensate for special abilities, and will often use a prepackaged module designed to challenge core race PCs. In such cases, the monster race will prove vastly more powerful than its core race counterparts, unless its ECL is set high enough to offset its tactical advantages. Using the erinyes as a specific example, picture a typical module. Somewhere along the way, the PCs get a map detailing a route to a warlord's mountain castle. His treasure vault, containing the item the PCs need to retrieve, lies somewhere in the castle, probably on the top floor. The weather is rough, so flying seems like a bad idea. Fortunately, the ECL 9 erinyes can teleport without error to the third floor of the castle, befriend (courtesy of Charm Monster) whomever he finds there, find out the treasure's location, bounce around a bit more until he finds the treasure room, then bounce back to the party. Adventure solved, and nobody else had any fun. For CR 15 adventures, a standard party could exhibit similar behavior, and modules would be made with this in mind. (1) its Greater Teleport *self-only*. Better hope the Erinyes doesn't run into trouble. An EL13 encounter by herself will almost certainly kill her. (2) Greater Teleport requires you have at least a reliable description of where you're teleporting. An X on a map is *not sufficient*. And the DM is under no obligation to provide you with such a description. (3) Charm Monster effects at most 1 creature/round. (4) Charm Monster is foiled by Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos or Magic Circle vs. same. 1st and 3rd level spells. Magic Circle lasts 10m/level, which means it can be up *all day* for the warlord or his cleric advisor with but a few castings - and the Warlord is most definitely not interested in being charmed by every magic-user wandering through his lands. Seriously, charm spells are a low-level danger, everyone in power in D+D protects themself against it. (5) Even if you do charm the warlord, unless he tells his friends where his secret hoarde is he won't tell you, he's only friendly. If you charm someone else, they have to actually have the requisite information, and would have to be willing to tell their friends. Charm monster does not let you make someone divulge their secrets. (6) Again, Greater Teleport won't let you 'bounce around a bit', you'd need to get good detailed descriptions of all the rooms. From someone willing and able to provide them. (7) A level 9 adventure should already expect teleport, so having a few dimensional lock spells around (hired a wizard to cast them for him at some point) is perfectly reasonable. Most of the problems with your scenario come down to that you haven't even (1) read the rules to the spells in question, and (2) considered countermeasures against things as common as a charm spell (i mean, if the party trudges up to the stronghold and just charms the count, that's also pretty boring). No wonder you think its overpowered, you somehow think Gr Teleport reads avoid plot with no restrictions or exceptions, and charm monster reads everyone does anything i ever ask of them. This isn't supported at all by the rules.
Argaud 04-18-07, 12:57 PM	The AMF makes it impossible to use magic in the area it is affecting. Outside the AMF, the AMF radiates moderate abjuration. Its only inside the AMF that you can't detect. The AMF is a 10' diameter sphere. So you see a glowing 10' sphere (or part thereof) with detect magic, arcane sight, or similar. The only rules for magic auras are in detect magic, which tell you that all 6th level spells radiate a moderate power aura of the appropriate school. AMF only says magic is suppressed *inside* it, not that it is 'not magic' or 'doesn't radiate an aura'. Therefore it does, because all spells do, you just can't detect it while you're inside it because your detect magic doesn't work. An invisible barrier surrounds you and moves with you. The space within this barrier is impervious to most magical effects, including spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. Likewise, it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines. An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell’s duration. It seems pretty clear to me the effects of AMF will negate detection magic, since the effect of the spell has to be used in the AMF area to detect the aura. Beyond the border of the AMF the wizard detection abilities work fine, but inside the effects of the spells do not work, so he can't see the auras inside the AMF, including the aura of the AMF itself. "it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines" so the Arcane Sight can't see things inside. The interpretation that the wizard automatically detects all auras without even rolling Spot is also very, very questionable. Arcane Sight is not a spell designed to make the wizard capable of detecting everybody around him. By your interpretation the wizard can automatically detect everything and everyone in 120' if they have any magical item or magical effect on them without even a die roll. So the PHB and DMG are wrong? The PHB and DMG are "some guy on the character optimization board"? Seriously, this is not me vs. CustServe, this is the PHB and DMG vs. CustServe. Not so. It is just your interpretation of the text vs. the interpretation of CustServe. Your interpretation is plainly wrong: it violates completely the intention of the rules and it is based what you want the rules to say. It is pretty obvious druids can't have an AC 10-15 points above everybody else or have access to a rule loop for virtually infinite hit points. I don't think anyone can serious believe that is was the intention of the written rules to give them those abilities. The fact it can be read like that by someone that wants to read it like that means it is poorly written, not that the druid has those abilities.
malignor 04-18-07, 01:03 PM	Let me see here. If I were to build my own Erinyes, take the basic one Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 9d8+45 (85 hp) Initiative: +5 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good) Armor Class: 23 (+5 Dex, +8 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+14 Attack: Longsword +14 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle) Full Attack: Longsword +14/+9 melee (1d8+5/19-20) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+5 Str bonus) +15/+10 ranged (1d8+6/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +14 ranged (entangle) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10 Abilities: Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 20 Skills: Concentration +17, Diplomacy +7, Escape Artist +17, Hide +17, Knowledge (any two) +14, Listen +16, Move Silently +17, Search +14, Sense Motive +16, Spot +16, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks), Use Rope +5 (+7 with bindings) Feats: DodgeB, MobilityB, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run Okay now to customize... What I'll do is split it all up evenly among the stats, then with the remainder, I'll do a bit of personal optimization for fun. Take a 28 point buy along with the rest of my party... Str 12, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 12 ...add racial bonuses of +10Str, +10Dex, +10Con, +4Int, +8Wis, +10Cha... Str 22, Dex 22, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 22. Now this means I get +7hp/HD (+63 hitpoints; more than a bard16 or rogue16 with a Con10 even HAVE) and (8+INT=...) 12 skill points per hitdie x (9+3=...) 12, or 144 skillpoints (more than a Rogue16 of Int10 even HAS). Being 9 hitdice, I also get 4 feats. Let's see what we have now. Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 9d8+63 (107 hp) (as a PC, my 1st HD is maxed) Initiative: +6 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good) Armor Class: 24 (+6 Dex, +8 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 18 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+15 Attack: Longsword +15 melee (1d8+6/19-20; 1d8+9 if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +16 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +15 ranged (entangle) Full Attack: Longsword +15/+10 melee (1d8+6/19-20; 1d8+9 if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +16/+11 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +15 ranged (entangle) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +11 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 22, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 22 Skills: Concentration +17 (10 ranks), Diplomacy +20 (10 ranks, +4 synergy), Escape Artist +16 (10 ranks, +2 synergy against bindings), Hide +16 (10 ranks), Knowledge (planar) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (arcana) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (nobility) +9 (5 ranks), Knowledge (geography) +9 (5 ranks), Listen +15 (10 ranks), Move Silently +16 (10 ranks), Search +14 (10 ranks), Sense Motive +15 (10 ranks), Spellcraft +8 (crossclass, 2 ranks, +2 synergy), Spot +15 (10 ranks), Survival +15 (10 ranks, +2 synergy following tracks, +2 synergy in other planes, +2 synergy navigation), Use Rope +16 (10 ranks, +2 synergy with bindings) Feats: Dodge(b), Mobility(b), Quicken Spell Like Ability (Minor Image), Flyby Attack, Spring Attack, Power Attack Racial Abilities An erinyes’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Entangle (Ex): Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 20), minor image (DC 18; quickened 3 times per day), unholy blight (DC 20). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. True Seeing (Su): Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). This effectively lets the Erinyes be immune to illusions with a visual component, and other deceptive magicks like Alter Self and Polymorph. Not bad, so far. Especially for a non-optimized Erinyes PC. Now for equipment (to be added later). Then I'll add a class level (Monk, Bard, Rogue or Sorcerer, Ideally) and we'll see how things pan out. EDIT: Equipment Okay, a 15th level character gets 270k worth of gear. She already has a flaming longbow+1 of strength +6 (9k gold), and a Rope of Entanglement (21k), for 30k worth of stuff so far. This leaves 240k. Even though an Erinyes is a 16th level character, I'll short change her just to prove a point. Process I like these. What I do is I randomly roll up major items, subtracting their value from the available total "cash pool", until I roll an item that's more gold than the remaining total cash pool. Then I randomly roll medium items the same way, then minor items the same way. Eventually, I'm left with a few hundred to a few thousand gold in the cash pool, and a truckload of random magic items of varying power. What the Erinyes can't use or doesn't like, she sells at half price and adds to her remaining cash pool. Then with her cash pool she buys stuff to fill in the gaps (empty ring slots, etc.). This is, I figure, a good way to come up with unbiased, non-optimized gear. I'll be back in an hour or so with my results. EDIT: Okay, I did the rolls. Here's my results. 2680gp remaining after everything. Kept: Helm of Teleportation, Rod of Splendor, Lens of Detection, Stone of Alarm, Potions (2 x Mage Armor, 2 x Cats Grace, Blur, Invisibility, Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Shield of Faith +2) Sold: Shield +1 (585), Potions (Fox's Cunning (150), Endure Elements (25), Delay Poison (150), Greater Magic Fang (375)), Wand (Charm Animals) (375), Candle of Truth (1250), Dust of Appearance (900), +2 Fullplate (2825), all scrolls (2475+1392.5+87.5+162.5), +3 Buckler (4582.5) = 15 335gp, plus the 2680gp remaining, equals 18 015 gold to toss around. - Armor: Don't bother. - Weapon: Need a replacement for that longsword. But we don't know the Erinyes' proficiencies beyond longsword and longbow, so we'll stay with longsword. Maybe a Cold Iron Longsword +1, for 4630gp. That gives more DR penetration and a little bonus. Now she goes through Evil+Lawful+Cold Iron+Magic+Slashing. That should cover alot of enemies out there. - Rings: Simple and cheap. A ring of Protection +1 (2000gp) and a Ring of Featherfalling (2200gp) So now all we have left is Wondrous Items, and we have 9185gp to fill the spaces. Amulet of Natural Armor +1 (2000) (7185 to go) Boots of Elvenkind (2500) (4685 to go) Cloak of Elvinkind (2500) (2185 to go) ... and that should about do it. Now, another look at the result Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 9d8+63 (107 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good) Armor Class: 26 (+6 Dex, +9 natural, +1 deflection), touch 17, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+15 Attack: Longsword +16 melee (1d8+7/19-20; 1d8+10 if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +16 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +15 ranged (entangle) Full Attack: Longsword +16/+11 melee (1d8+7/19-20; 1d8+10 if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +16/+11 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +15 ranged (entangle) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +11 Abilities: Str 22, Dex 22, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 22 (26 via rod of splendor) Skills: Concentration +17 (10 ranks), Diplomacy +22 (10 ranks, +4 synergy), Escape Artist +16 (10 ranks, +2 synergy against bindings), Hide +21 (10 ranks, +5 cloak), Knowledge (planar) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (arcana) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (nobility) +9 (5 ranks), Knowledge (geography) +9 (5 ranks), Listen +15 (10 ranks), Move Silently +21 (10 ranks, +5 boots), Search +14 (10 ranks), Sense Motive +15 (10 ranks), Spellcraft +8 (crossclass, 2 ranks, +2 synergy), Spot +15 (10 ranks), Survival +15 (10 ranks, +2 synergy following tracks, +2 synergy in other planes, +2 synergy navigation), Use Rope +16 (10 ranks, +2 synergy with bindings) Feats: Dodge(b), Mobility(b), Quicken Spell Like Ability (Minor Image), Flyby Attack, Spring Attack, Power Attack Racial Abilities An erinyes’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Entangle (Ex): Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 22), minor image (DC 20; quickened 3 times per day), unholy blight (DC 22). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. True Seeing (Su): Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). This effectively lets the Erinyes be immune to illusions with a visual component, and other deceptive magicks like Alter Self and Polymorph. Equipment: Helm of Teleportation (to bring heavy loads or allies), Rod of Splendor, Lens of Detection, Stone of Alarm, Potions (2 x Mage Armor, 2 x Cats Grace, Blur, Invisibility, Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Shield of Faith +2), Boots of Elvinkind, Cloak of Elvinkind, Cold Iron Longsword +1, Ring of Protection +1, Ring of Featherfall, Amulet of Natural Armor +1. And, of course, a Mighty Composite Longbow (Str+6) +1 of Flaming Arrows, and a Rope of Entanglement. What we have so far is a decent scouting character with some interesting abilities. She can fight a little (though below a 16th level fighter), has respectable defenses, decent skills and a couple unique powers. As a scout, she is amazing. She can overcome illusions and non-magical obstacles with ease, has powerful resistances and immunities and remarkable mobility. Though her damage output is unimpressive, she can crank it up via two-handed PA with her Longsword (+7 to hit, 1d8+28/19-20) and overcome alot of DR. Her only real problem is against high levelled casters and high AC opponents that can't be charmed, and against aquatic or ethereal creatures. Even then, she can occupy and weaken them, or just circumvent confrontation altogether. NEXT: Add a class level (I think I'll go with Monk) EDIT: 1 Level in Monk... I chose Monk because she has such high ability scores, I figure I'd go with a MAD-crazy class which would make good use of them. Plus, being a creature of Law, the Erinyes has an instinctive compulsion to remain Lawful, which is ideal for the class. Also, her lack of natural weapons, and her potentially seductive nature (high Charisma, high Diplomacy, Charm Monster at will) make her ideal to be a living weapon, throwing her prey off-guard. So here's what I have. This is now a 17th level character, so she gets an extra 110 000 gp of gear. For this, I'll break down and just buy stuff. Especially since my rolling was kinda bad for the random gear, and anyone in a party would be able to divvy up loot so that the best stuff goes to the best party member. So there would be a LITTLE more optimization. Size/Type: Medium Outsider9/Monk1 (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 10d8+70 (118 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good) Armor Class: 34 (+6 Dex, +8 natural, +2 deflection, +8 monk), touch 26, flat-footed 20 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+18 Attack: Longsword +20 melee (1d8+11/19-20; 1d8+15 if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +16 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +15 ranged (entangle) or Unarmed +18 melee (1d6+9) Full Attack: Longsword +20/+15 melee (1d8+11/19-20; 1d8+15 if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +16/+11 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +15 ranged (entangle) or Unarmed Flurry +16/16/11 melee (1d6+9) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil, flurry of blows Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Saves: Fort +15, Ref +14, Will +16 Abilities: Str 28 (22), Dex 22, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 26 (20), Cha 26 (22) Skills: Balance +9 (1 rank, +2 synergy), Concentration +17 (10 ranks), Diplomacy +22 (10 ranks, +4 synergy), Escape Artist +16 (10 ranks, +2 synergy against bindings), Hide +21 (10 ranks, +5 cloak), Jump +12 (1 rank, +2 synergy), Knowledge (planar) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (arcana) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (nobility) +9 (5 ranks), Knowledge (geography) +9 (5 ranks), Knowledge (religion) +5 (1 rank), Listen +18 (10 ranks), Move Silently +21 (10 ranks, +5 boots), Search +14 (10 ranks), Sense Motive +18 (10 ranks), Spellcraft +8 (crossclass, 2 ranks, +2 synergy), Spot +18 (10 ranks), Survival +18 (10 ranks, +2 synergy following tracks, +2 synergy in other planes, +2 synergy navigation), Tumble +11 (5 ranks), Use Rope +16 (10 ranks, +2 synergy with bindings) Feats: Dodge(b), Mobility(b), Quicken Spell Like Ability (Minor Image), Flyby Attack, Spring Attack, Power Attack, Stunning Fist (1/day, DC 23) Racial Abilities An erinyes’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Entangle (Ex): Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 22), minor image (DC 20; quickened 3 times per day), unholy blight (DC 22). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. True Seeing (Su): Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). This effectively lets the Erinyes be immune to illusions with a visual component, and other deceptive magicks like Alter Self and Polymorph. Equipment: During her training in the way of the Monk, she bought herself a Periapt of Wisdom +6 (-36000), selling her Amulet of Armor (+1000). She also bought a Belt of Giant Strength +6 (-36000) and enchanted her Longsword up to Ghost Touch and +2 for more damage on armed flying spring attacks (-32000). Having only 7kgp remaining, she upgraded her Ring of Protection to +2 (-8000, +1000). That's the summ of the 110k gold from level 15 to 16. Helm of Teleportation (to bring heavy loads or allies), Rod of Splendor, Lens of Detection, Stone of Alarm, Potions (2 x Mage Armor, 2 x Cats Grace, Blur, Invisibility, Cure Moderate Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Shield of Faith +2), Boots of Elvinkind, Cloak of Elvinkind, Cold Iron Longsword +2 of Ghost Touch, Ring of Protection +2, Ring of Featherfall, Periapt of Wisdom +6, Belt of Giant Strength +6. And, of course, a Mighty Composite Longbow (Str+6) +1 of Flaming Arrows, and a Rope of Entanglement. Look at that nice AC and those saves. Alot of attack options as well. Now I ask you: How does this stack up to other 16th level characters? 17th level characters? I think she'll fit into a 17th level party and contribute aplenty.
Reyemile 04-18-07, 01:15 PM	(1) its Greater Teleport *self-only*. Better hope the Erinyes doesn't run into trouble. An EL13 encounter by herself will almost certainly kill her.If she is teleporting directly to the top of the tower, she has probably bypassed the only ECL 13 encounter in the level 9 adventure. Why would a host of guards be guarding the TOP floor? And if she DOES run into it, they have one round to kill her before she teleports back out. (2) Greater Teleport requires you have at least a reliable description of where you're teleporting. An X on a map is *not sufficient*. And the DM is under no obligation to provide you with such a description.Or she could teleport to the roof of the castle from half a mile away, since seeing it herself is just as good as a description. (3) Charm Monster effects at most 1 creature/round. (4) Charm Monster is foiled by Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos or Magic Circle vs. same. 1st and 3rd level spells. Magic Circle lasts 10m/level, which means it can be up *all day* for the warlord or his cleric advisor with but a few castings - and the Warlord is most definitely not interested in being charmed by every magic-user wandering through his lands. Seriously, charm spells are a low-level danger, everyone in power in D+D protects themself against it.Generally, most of the serious garrison of a fortress is on the first floor--Encounter Level 9 castles aren't expecting demonic infiltration. And seriously, if randomguard A had protection from evil up twenty-four hours a day, I would throw my dice at the DM and leave. (5) Even if you do charm the warlord, unless he tells his friends where his secret hoarde is he won't tell you, he's only friendly. If you charm someone else, they have to actually have the requisite information, and would have to be willing to tell their friends. Charm monster does not let you make someone divulge their secrets.Read before you respond. We're not charming the warlord, we're waltzing in and charming whatever guard is assigned to watch the Chamber Pot on the third floor of the heavily fortified castle--you know, the incompetent one. (6) Again, Greater Teleport won't let you 'bounce around a bit', you'd need to get good detailed descriptions of all the rooms. From someone willing and able to provide them.Good thing we charmed a guard. He probably still won't let us into the treasure room, but if we ask really nice he'll probably tell us all about what it looks like on the inside. (7) A level 9 adventure should already expect teleport, so having a few dimensional lock spells around (hired a wizard to cast them for him at some point) is perfectly reasonable.This is a fair criticism. Still, remember that we are talking about pre-fab adventures and inexperienced GMs. There is a good chance that there WON'T be a dimesional anchor, and all it take is one slip-up on the designers part for the Erinyes to ruin the adventure for the rest of the party. Most of the problems with your scenario come down to that you haven't even (1) read the rules to the spells in question, and (2) considered countermeasures against things as common as a charm spell (i mean, if the party trudges up to the stronghold and just charms the count, that's also pretty boring). No wonder you think its overpowered, you somehow think Gr Teleport reads avoid plot with no restrictions or exceptions, and charm monster reads everyone does anything i ever ask of them. This isn't supported at all by the rules.Most of the problems with you responses are that you haven't even (1) read the post in question, and (2) considered countermeasures against things as common as an charm-proof BBEG. Teleport at will does let you bypass many plots (no one has actually claimed that it lets you bypass them all with no exceptions), and charm does let you do things like get a description of the inside of a vault, even if it can't actually get you in. The only actual obstacle to the Erinyes breaking the adventure is the possibility of a Dimensional Anchor, and even then with PC wealth the character could have a one-use item of Disintegrate, Passwall, Stoneshape, Dispel Magic, or Gaseous Form to get by the door. Even if a level 9 Erinyes doesn't dominate fights, she dominates plots.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 01:22 PM	It seems pretty clear to me the effects of AMF will negate detection magic, since the effect of the spell has to be used in the AMF area to detect the aura. Beyond the border of the AMF the wizard detection abilities work fine, but inside the effects of the spells do not work, so he can't see the auras inside the AMF, including the aura of the AMF itself. "it prevents the functioning of any magic items or spells within its confines" so the Arcane Sight can't see things inside. Yes, it can't see things inside. It can see the surface of the AMF however. The surface of the AMF is not inside the AMF, by definition. (if it was, it wouldn't be the surface). Further, a magic aura is literally "radiated", which means it extends (at least slightly) beyond the spell effect itself. The interpretation that the wizard automatically detects all auras without even rolling Spot is also very, very questionable. Arcane Sight is not a spell designed to make the wizard capable of detecting everybody around him. By your interpretation the wizard can automatically detect everything and everyone in 120' if they have any magical item or magical effect on them without even a die roll. No. If he can't see the aura, he can't see it. But hiding a 10' radius sphere is *really frickin hard*. Seriously. Not so. It is just your interpretation of the text vs. the interpretation of CustServe. Your interpretation is plainly wrong: it violates completely the intention of the rules and it is based what you want the rules to say. If you had ever made any rules-based attacks on the validity of my interpretation, this might almost hold water. You never have. Therefore, my interpretation is successfully defended against all challenges, which makes it correct. Learn how to debate. My interpretation of the rules is wrong because it violates the intention of the rules? Uh, rules don't have intention. They are words. They mean something based on how those words are strung together using this thing we use called "language". It says what it says. Period. Where are you getting this privileged information into the intention of the rules? Learn how to read critically, please. Based on what I want the rules to say? I'd like a balanced rules set, thanks. I'd like rules that actually work. Just because WotC can't seem to actually write such rules (certainly with regards to wildshape) isn't *my* fault. Finally, its not "CustServe's interpretation of the text", because they never reference the text. They just make a declaration with no basis in the rules whatsoever. It can't be called an interpretation of something it doesn't reference. Perhaps if they actually read the rules, they might be able to interpret them. Their response to you clearly indicated they hadn't done so. It is pretty obvious druids can't have an AC 10-15 points above everybody else or have access to a rule loop for virtually infinite hit points. I don't think anyone can serious believe that is was the intention of the written rules to give them those abilities. The fact it can be read like that by someone that wants to read it like that means it is poorly written, not that the druid has those abilities. Rules have no intention. They are words used to describe relationships and interactions in a logical system. They have objective meaning based on the definitions of that logical system. That is the essence of "rules". Similarly, the legal code is a set of rules. Often laws have effects that weren't intended - but that doesn't change how those laws are interpreted or applied. "Intention" is a meaningless concept in a rules document. Its the fact that it *cannot be read the way CustServe says it works* which makes CustServe wrong, not the fact that it "can" be read "my" way. Actually, it can *only* be read "my" way. The rules are rather clear on the matter. (I would also have more faith in CustServe if they occasionally said: "technically the rules say as follows: .... This is certainly not what was intended - we recommend you houserule it as follows: .... and we are referring it to the design team for errata." That would clearly distinguish (1) RAW interpretation, (2) a good solution to the problem the RAW creates, and would also add impetus for something to be done to actually correct the problem. As it currently stands, they usually push (2) as if it was (1), which is a disservice to the game).
Gharlane 04-18-07, 01:49 PM	I haven't had time to go through this thread in detail, but here's one misconception that I noticed on my cursory glance: Originally Posted by Barloch Also everyone has failed to mention thus far a monster doesn't get equipment equal to the standard PC of its CR. An eiyrness has what? A magic sword and some fancy armor maybe right? A level 15 pc has a crap load of magical gear, and a pc eiyrness has all that fancy fun gear. A PC Erinyes, would be an ECL 15 character and would have the equipment of an ECL 15 character. PC Equipment is tied to ECL, not HD or CR.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 01:51 PM	If she is teleporting directly to the top of the tower, she has probably bypassed the only ECL 13 encounter in the level 9 adventure. Why would a host of guards be guarding the TOP floor? And if she DOES run into it, they have one round to kill her before she teleports back out. I would actually figure the EL 13 encounter would be at the vault itself. That's where I would put it if I was designing an adventure, so it *couldn't* be bypassed. Or she could teleport to the roof of the castle from half a mile away, since seeing it herself is just as good as a description. Which would require getting to within half a mile, which means you've already done the 'adventure through the rain' bit and fought whatever outside encounter there was. Also, if its bad weather, seeing the roof from 1/2 a mile away could be hard. (and nasty weather is even in the scenario). Finally, a level 9 wizard can teleport the entire party to the roof of the castle. If the adventure designer didn't plan on this, he deserves to have his adventure mostly avoided. Remember the roof is one of a castle's weak points - most castles actually have the majority of their on-duty military on the "roof" (battlements is the correct term) because they can defend the keep best from there. Its especially a weak point in a world with teleport, since its easy to teleport to. Expect the delay teleportation spell to be common and automatic magical responses like 'summon a scary outsider if someone teleports here without saying the codeword, or upon hearing $CommandWord'. You're talking about a world where teleport is available to every 9th level wizard, and dimension door or fly can get you to the roof at much lower levels. Heck, levitate can do it as early as 3rd level. If a 9th level adventure isn't prepared for those sorts of shenanigans, it totally fails as an adventure. Generally, most of the serious garrison of a fortress is on the first floor--Encounter Level 9 castles aren't expecting demonic infiltration. And seriously, if randomguard A had protection from evil up twenty-four hours a day, I would throw my dice at the DM and leave. I expect that the major encounters are going to be (1) something on the road in the rain, (2) the warlord himself and his important cronies. (Low level guards are not a challenge for a level 9 party), (3) some sort of monster guarding the treasure room (bound demons, golems, etc...), with (2) and (3) likely being EL = APL +2-3. You're assuming a random guard has sufficient information to be useful to you. In a world where charm person is a 1st level wizard spell. If I were the DM, I'd wonder why the warlord had any treasure left... And Level 9 castles *should* be expecting demonic infiltration... Demons aren't exactly rare at those levels. Finally, i recommend you read the hallow and unhallow spells. Clr/Dru 5, protects the entire structure as if by Magic Circle Against Evil/Good (as appropriate). No charm within the building's limits. Should be *expected* at 9th level. Edit: And its duration: instantaneous, meaning you can't even dispel the MCvX effect, because its not an ongoing spell effect. Read before you respond. We're not charming the warlord, we're waltzing in and charming whatever guard is assigned to watch the Chamber Pot on the third floor of the heavily fortified castle--you know, the incompetent one. Good thing we charmed a guard. He probably still won't let us into the treasure room, but if we ask really nice he'll probably tell us all about what it looks like on the inside. If he's ever *been inside* the vault. This is a 9th level adventure - the vault is an extradimensional space that 2-3 people know the location of, much less have been in. A locked door is appropriate for a 3rd level adventure, not a 9th level adventure. I'm assuming Yabathewhat's scenario is a 9th level scenario. It should have appropriate countermeasures that the PCs have to foil. Doing so should not be impossible - perhaps teleporting the party to the top lets them avoid a dangerous encounter on the 1st floor, and any party would have to deal with the roof encounter anyway (who would respond to the party's intrusion) - its certainly more clever than kicking in the front door. But shortcut the whole adventure? Please. That's not even an adventure at 9th level. This is a fair criticism. Still, remember that we are talking about pre-fab adventures and inexperienced GMs. There is a good chance that there WON'T be a dimesional anchor, and all it take is one slip-up on the designers part for the Erinyes to ruin the adventure for the rest of the party. Except the way you've laid it out, a level 3 wizard with invisibility could slip into the place with a rogue buddy, charm a guard, and have the rogue pick the lock of the door. By 9th level the rogue can do it himself with a wand/ring of invisibility (or a few scrolls), a scroll or wand of charm person or just a diplomacy check. Its not even hard. Most of the problems with you responses are that you haven't even (1) read the post in question Seriously, I directed my comments specifically at his scenario as laid out, and questioned a number of assumptions he's making. I consider his claim that some random person on the top floor will know where the treasure room is ridiculous. Its a secure area in a world with charm person, any writer who makes such an adventure deserves to never work in the industry again. (2) considered countermeasures against things as common as an charm-proof BBEG. You mean like using a diplomacy check? Sure. Or kicking his teeth in and then letting the magic-user (detect magic) and rogue search the top floor for the entrance to the vault - sure. This second doesn't require you to kick in his teeth, but don't be surprised if he catches you in the act either. Especially since you probably triggered an alarm spell by teleporting onto that floor. Teleport at will does let you bypass many plots (no one has actually claimed that it lets you bypass them all with no exceptions), and charm does let you do things like get a description of the inside of a vault, even if it can't actually get you in. The only actual obstacle to the Erinyes breaking the adventure is the possibility of a Dimensional Anchor, and even then with PC wealth the character could have a one-use item of Disintegrate, Passwall, Stoneshape, Dispel Magic, or Gaseous Form to get by the door. Even if a level 9 Erinyes doesn't dominate fights, she dominates plots. By your logic, so do Magic-Users. 9th level adventures already have to account for charm and teleport magic. If they don't just having a wizard can short-cut the whole thing.
YabaTheWhat 04-18-07, 02:02 PM	(1) its Greater Teleport *self-only*. Better hope the Erinyes doesn't run into trouble. An EL13 encounter by herself will almost certainly kill her. Only if she's too dumb to teleport out during her free surprise round... because whoever's around when she gets there will be surprised. (2) Greater Teleport requires you have at least a reliable description of where you're teleporting. An X on a map is *not sufficient*. And the DM is under no obligation to provide you with such a description. Reliable descriptions include: >> Three miles in that direction, at the foot of the southeast guard tower. >> The room just on the other side of that window, three feet into the room. >> The room on the other side of this door. You know, four feet from where I'm standing right now. >> That roof right over there, below that window with the light in it. >> My favorite room back at the inn. >> The magic shop where I bought this nice potion of invisibility. Plus if she misses, she can just keep trying with different descriptions until she gets one that works. Once she has seen the door, she has enough information to try "the other side of that door" even if she pops off to the inn first. (3) Charm Monster effects at most 1 creature/round. And anyone with reasonable intelligence should be able to lure one creature off by itself, out of the population of an entire castle, and possibly numerous guards and patrols for miles around said castle. (4) Charm Monster is foiled by Protection from Good/Evil/Law/Chaos or Magic Circle vs. same. 1st and 3rd level spells. Magic Circle lasts 10m/level, which means it can be up *all day* for the warlord or his cleric advisor with but a few castings - and the Warlord is most definitely not interested in being charmed by every magic-user wandering through his lands. Seriously, charm spells are a low-level danger, everyone in power in D+D protects themself against it. This presumes that {a} the warlord and his cleric advisor know the party is coming, and want to burn six to twelve spells per person per day to keep the barrier up, just in case the PCs manage to arrive without confronting any of his guards, and {b} the erinyes actually bothers to confront the warlord, rather than just hooking a few lackeys and having them cause a distraction while the erinyes pops around, all by her lonesome, in the CR 9 castle. Remember, the point of making the erinyes ECL 15 is to make sure it can't handle the adventure all by its lonesome self. (5) Even if you do charm the warlord, unless he tells his friends where his secret hoarde is he won't tell you, he's only friendly. If you charm someone else, they have to actually have the requisite information, and would have to be willing to tell their friends. Charm monster does not let you make someone divulge their secrets. You've heard of Gather Information? It's pretty easy to put together a reasonably detailed layout of a castle just from the cleaning staff. For secret chambers, it may take a few tries to get the right person. But if it's a spot only the warlord knows about, all you really need to find is the entrance... a task made much easier by permanent True Seeing. After that, it's a matter of hopping from room to room. Because, you know, you can do it once per round and still keep going all day and all night. (6) Again, Greater Teleport won't let you 'bounce around a bit', you'd need to get good detailed descriptions of all the rooms. From someone willing and able to provide them. See the answer to #1. (7) A level 9 adventure should already expect teleport, so having a few dimensional lock spells around (hired a wizard to cast them for him at some point) is perfectly reasonable. Teleport only lets you go to places you've already seen, which makes "the other side of that door right there" off limits. Dimension door would be more reasonable at ECL 9, but neither a sorcerer nor a wizard would have more than a few of them to burn at level 9. Plus using a dimension door carries risk, whereas greater teleport carries no risk at all. Any fortress worth the rock in its walls has enough space, either in it or under it, to make a single use of Dimension Door about as helpful as one or two uses of Knock. Most of the problems with your scenario come down to that you haven't even (1) read the rules to the spells in question, and (2) considered countermeasures against things as common as a charm spell (i mean, if the party trudges up to the stronghold and just charms the count, that's also pretty boring). No wonder you think its overpowered, you somehow think Gr Teleport reads avoid plot with no restrictions or exceptions, and charm monster reads everyone does anything i ever ask of them. This isn't supported at all by the rules. Conversely, you have done pretty much the same thing of which you're accusing me, from the opposite direction. You've presumed that a CR 9 adventure will have defenses in place capable of stopping, or at least slowing down, a level 15 party, and that the players won't be creative enough to make effective use of potent monster abilities. At ECL 9 a standard spellcaster would have only a couple spell slots per day for the spells that an erinyes can use, stilled and silenced as SLAs, over and over again. You have also presumed that anything you can't do with a level 4 spell also can't be done with a level 7 spell, which is a patently stupid assumption. As I said in my first post, maybe the erinyes isn't ECL 15. Maybe it's ECL 13 if the adventure accounts for the possibility of an erinyes (or something of similar potential) PC. But ECL 9? Not a chance in hell.
YabaTheWhat 04-18-07, 02:16 PM	I haven't had time to go through this thread in detail, but here's one misconception that I noticed on my cursory glance: Also everyone has failed to mention thus far a monster doesn't get equipment equal to the standard PC of its CR. An eiyrness has what? A magic sword and some fancy armor maybe right? A level 15 pc has a crap load of magical gear, and a pc eiyrness has all that fancy fun gear. A PC Erinyes, would be an ECL 15 character and would have the equipment of an ECL 15 character. PC Equipment is tied to ECL, not HD or CR. I think you just said the same thing Barloch said in the text you quoted. ;)
Grand Theft Otto 04-18-07, 02:25 PM	Perhaps I can clarify this a bit. An experienced DM will know how to set up an adventure so that the creature's special abilities won't spoil the experience for everyone. An inexperienced DM may not know how to compensate for special abilities, and will often use a prepackaged module designed to challenge core race PCs. In such cases, the monster race will prove vastly more powerful than its core race counterparts, unless its ECL is set high enough to offset its tactical advantages. Precisely. An inexperienced DM will run it as is. Which means falsely assuming that an umber hulk can actually do squat on an adventure designed for 15th level characters, and run it. The umberhulk basically dies the first round of any combat. Why is this good design? Because it makes non-core suck? Why are other non-core options decent then? Using the erinyes as a specific example, picture a typical module. Somewhere along the way, the PCs get a map detailing a route to a warlord's mountain castle. His treasure vault, containing the item the PCs need to retrieve, lies somewhere in the castle, probably on the top floor. The weather is rough, so flying seems like a bad idea. Fortunately, the ECL 9 erinyes can teleport without error to the third floor of the castle, befriend (courtesy of Charm Monster) whomever he finds there, find out the treasure's location, bounce around a bit more until he finds the treasure room, then bounce back to the party. Adventure solved, and nobody else had any fun. For CR 15 adventures, a standard party could exhibit similar behavior, and modules would be made with this in mind. So the erinyes gets to just be a terrible wizard then? I'm not necessarily sayign ECL 9 is correct, but ECL 15 is pretty obviously wrong. ECL 15 for an umber hulk is reduclous, as is ECL 9 for an ettercap (whee, I have a bunch of tanglefoot bags! Thanks Dungeon Master!). ECL 12 for an ogre mage? Ok, wheres the hidden camera, because this is clearly a joke.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 02:33 PM	Only if she's too dumb to teleport out during her free surprise round... because whoever's around when she gets there will be surprised. Technically, as you also had no idea they were there, you are also surprised. No surprise round for you - roll initiative monkey boy. Reliable descriptions include: >> Three miles in that direction. >> The room just on the other side of that window, three feet into the room. >> The room on the other side of this door. You know, four feet from where I'm standing right now. >> That roof right over there, below that window with the light in it. >> My favorite room back at the inn. >> The magic shop where I bought this nice potion of invisibility. Plus if she misses, she can just keep trying with different descriptions until she gets one that works. Once she has seen the door, she has enough information to try "the other side of that door" even if she pops off to the inn first. Directional descriptions work fine for Dim Door, but are not a "reliable description of the place to which you are teleporting." You need a description of the place, not to the place. Also "insufficient information" fail - which is a DM fiat thing. And anyone with reasonable intelligence should be able to lure one creature off by itself, out of the population of an entire castle, and possibly numerous guards and patrols for miles around said castle. This presumes that {a} the warlord and his cleric advisor know the party is coming, and want to burn six to twelve spells per person per day to keep the barrier up, just in case the PCs manage to arrive without confronting any of his guards, and {b} the erinyes actually bothers to confront the warlord, rather than just hooking a few lackeys and having them cause a distraction while the erinyes pops around, all by her lonesome, in the CR 9 castle. Actually, his cleric advisor just casts unhallow, making everyone in the castle immune to charm magic. Remember, the point of making the erinyes ECL 15 is to make sure it can't handle the adventure all by its lonesome self. I suppose we should assign LA to the wizard class then? +1/5 class levels? More? Seriously, charm person has been around since 1st level. Invisibility and an adamantine dagger will get you anywhere you need to go. (Lock meet Adamantine Dagger. I call him "key"), and the wizard even has improved invisibility as of 7th level. If its as easy for the Erinyes as you imply, the wizard totally owns this thing alone. 2 levels earlier than 9th. Heck the wizard can scry the warlord until he goes to his treasure room, then just teleport in and out with the item after the warlord leaves. At 9th level. Its even easier than being an Erinyes. And before you say they have defenses against that - we already know they don't have defenses against teleport. And why would they defend against scry and not charm person? You've heard of Gather Information? It's pretty easy to put together a reasonably detailed layout of a castle just from the cleaning staff. For secret chambers, it may take a few tries to get the right person. But if it's a spot only the warlord knows about, all you really need to find is the entrance... a task made much easier by permanent True Seeing. After that, it's a matter of hopping from room to room. Because, you know, you can do it once per round and still keep going all day and all night. You really overrate at will abilities. A lot. Also, true seeing won't help the Erinyes find it if (1) there is a command word item of planeshift keyed to the vault (probably an item that looks otherwise mundane) or (2) the entrance is hidden by mundane means. You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet. True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance. Its auto-foil illusion, and see true form of transmuted things. Whatever. It doesn't even see into extradimensional spaces. Teleport only lets you go to places you've already seen, which makes "the other side of that door right there" off limits. Dimension door would be more reasonable at ECL 9, but neither a sorcerer nor a wizard would have more than a few of them to burn at level 9. Plus using a dimension door carries risk, whereas greater teleport carries no risk at all. Any fortress worth the rock in its walls has enough space, either in it or under it, to make a single use of Dimension Door about as helpful as one or two uses of Knock. Or an infinitely reuseable Adamantine Dagger? Seriously, open the frickin door, who cares that you can teleport? Also, the "other side of that door right there" is off limits to Greater Teleport if the door opens into an extradimensional space. Conversely, you have done pretty much the same thing of which you're accusing me, from the opposite direction. You've presumed that a CR 9 adventure will have defenses in place capable of stopping, or at least slowing down, a level 15 party, and that the players won't be creative enough to make effective use of potent monster abilities. At ECL 9 a standard spellcaster would have only a couple spell slots per day for the spells that an erinyes can use, stilled and silenced as SLAs, over and over again. You have also presumed that anything you can't do with a level 4 spell also can't be done with a level 7 spell, which is a patently stupid assumption. No, I'm assuming a 9th level adventure will have countermeasures to 9th level abilities (teleport, charm, etc...). There's nothing special about the Erinyes in that regard. As I said in my first post, maybe the erinyes isn't ECL 15. Maybe it's ECL 13 if the adventure accounts for the possibility of an erinyes (or something of similar potential) PC. But ECL 9? Not a chance in hell. I have yet to see any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that suggests the Erinyes is more than ECL 9 (assuming my stat calculation method). A handful of spells at will, oh noes. Spells that are available (or their close equivalent is) to 9th level casters
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 02:43 PM	How about a compromise on Erinyes-as-PCs. We give the Erinyes it's actual stat mods, not the ones with a subtracted elite array. We give RHD instead of LA, because LA is a stupid mechanic. We set a PC Erinyes' HD at 12, equal to the CL of its SLAs because that makes frickin sense. So it starts at an ECL12 with 12 Outsider RHD and +10 to all physicals and +4 +8 +10 to mentals. Sound fair to everyone?
RobbyPants 04-18-07, 02:51 PM	We set a PC Erinyes' HD at 12, equal to the CL of its SLAs because that makes frickin sense. Yeah, I always wondered where the arbitrary values for SR and caster level come from. One thing I liked about 3.5 was that they standardized the save DCs for everything (and they even list the relavent ability mod for each save DC).
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 02:59 PM	How about a compromise on Erinyes-as-PCs. We give the Erinyes it's actual stat mods, not the ones with a subtracted elite array. We give RHD instead of LA, because LA is a stupid mechanic. We set a PC Erinyes' HD at 12, equal to the CL of its SLAs because that makes frickin sense. So it starts at an ECL12 with 12 Outsider RHD and +10 to all physicals and +4 +8 +10 to mentals. Sound fair to everyone? Totally agree on the CL change. Not convinced RHD is the best solution. Again, I totally support a "minimum level" rule instead of LA, but you get to choose class levels for the difference between minimum level and RHD. (I suppose I don't care if the player *wants* to take RHD). And of course it should be noted that an Erinyes doesn't get level pumps to stats for 'levels' that occur off camera - its racial stat mods 'include' all level pumps up through its Minimum Level. So consider this a small difference of opinion, but otherwise your compromise seems reasonable. Yeah, I always wondered where the arbitrary values for SR and caster level come from. One thing I liked about 3.5 was that they standardized the save DCs for everything (and they even list the relavent ability mod for each save DC). Because they like to hand out laughably low SR on magic items, and then they like to bone the PCs for using those items by giving monsters CL > HD or CR, meaning that the SR available to players is virtually guaranteed to be useless. Come now, SR 19 is worth what, +5 armor mod? And is level appropriate at like 8th level and never thereafter? (minimum value 36k, can reasonably have starting around level 12?) I call BS.
Argaud 04-18-07, 04:49 PM	The Erinyes vs. the castle of the Chaotic Overlord (dum dum dum) So the party is in a tavern, drinking beer and playing poker. They are a level 9 cleric, rogue and fighter and an Erinyes, built more or less as Blathanon posted her. Suddenly, the party’s rogue, which is again loosing badly against the Erinyes superior Sense Motive, produces a rough map. “Guys, I have the map of the Chaotic Overlord hideout. A castle in the Stormy Mountains, 200 miles form here.” Wizard: What a crappy map, I can’t teleport you there with so little information.” Erinyes: No problem, give me five minutes. Five minutes later the Erinyes returns with the exact position of the hideout. Fighter: Guess we leave in the morning. Erinyes: (rolling her eyes) “Oh please... you mortals make all too complicated, Cleric, did you memorized spells this morning?” Cleric: sure, babe. Erinyes: Buff, plz. A minute later the Erinyes teleports to the castle of the Chaotic Overlord. She does not sneak in, she does not charm anyone, she just lands in the courtyard and demands the castle's immediate surrender. Lots of minions (warriors, monsters, undead) attack her. They can’t hit her, her AC is too high for them. Occasionally some rolls a 20 and inflicts some small damage (-5 from DR) or some minor spellcaster hits her past the SR20, but in general she just slaughters the minions. Halfway through the slaughter she teleports back to the tavern where the rest of the party is playing poker (this time the rogue is wining) and asks the cleric to heal her the ~30 hit points she is missing. Then she returns and finished the minions. She demands the castle surrender again. The Chaotic Overlord main henchmen attack her. They are a level 10 cleric and a level 10 wizard as per the DMG pages 115 and . And ECL 12 encounter. Surely they will defeat the Erinyes! Nope. Half their spells don’t work. The DC of the spells (19) is too low for Fort +15, Ref +17, Will +12. If one of them gets lucky with a Hold Monster or Enervation, or a high damage spells, the Erinyes just teleports back to the tavern and goes “heal, plz.” Then she returns and kills them. Okay, the Chaotic Overlord is annoyed. He sends his right-hand pet to kill the Erinyes. A eleven-headed cryohydra! CR12! The Erinyes is now doomed! Nope, she barely acknowledges the presence of the hydra. +16 to hit fails to get her AC35+. The breath weapons do 1/2 hit point on average, and that when she fails the save, which is only with a 1. After toying a bit with the hydra she decides to charm it because it is cute. Only the Chaotic Overlord remains. Do you think he has a chance? Probably not. Then the Erinyes searches the castle (with a better Search and Spot skills than the rogue, anyway, so the DC is easy for her) and finds the hidden treasure. If it was behind an illusion or protected by magical traps, her true seeing makes pretty easy to find it. If the protection of the treasure was mundane and so were the traps it might even take her a few hours. Not that traps can seriously hurt her, but if they do: teleport, heal, back. She can do it far more times than the cleric has spells. Adventure ends. The rogue and the fighter did nothing. The cleric helped, but without ever stopping drinking beer or playing poker. A few wands of healing in the hands of the rogue would have been only slightly more expensive. And the ideal party for this Erinyes is a cleric/druid/wizard that just buff her before she goes in a killing spree. While they play poker and drink beer in a tavern at the other side of the world. This is why Erinyes are not ECL9. (But ECL16 still seems too much. I guess the test would be how tough need the enemies to be so the Erinyes can’t do to them what she did to the Chaotic Overlord castle. My guess is CR13-14).
Argaud 04-18-07, 05:22 PM	Yes, it can't see things inside. It can see the surface of the AMF however. The surface of the AMF is not inside the AMF, by definition. (if it was, it wouldn't be the surface). Further, a magic aura is literally "radiated", which means it extends (at least slightly) beyond the spell effect itself. Spells have surfaces now? Rrrright. No comment anything else. No need.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 06:12 PM	Re: Argaud's plot First, you fought some minions and left, which means they expect your returning. Heck, you demand they surrender. They probably also 'soften you up' with minions for a couple rounds before the priest and wizard come out. Regardless, there is plenty of chance to pre-cast for the cleric/wizard duo. Also, see hallow below for effects you have to overcome each time you teleport in. Ok, a level 10 wizard minion - we'll give him pretty basic feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, SpFoc + GSpFoc (school), where school = conjuration, transmutation, or illusion. He also has 2 random metamagic feats, because we don't want to deal with crafting - Extend and Quicken. He has scribe scroll but we don't care. We'll make him a specialist in $school and drop evocation and enchantment. Let's assume $school is transmutation, i haven't used that in awhile. He's a wizard minion, so we care about his int, dex, and con in that order. Lets just assume he's got elite array Str 10 Dex 14 Con 13 Int 15 Wis 12 Cha 8. We'll assume he's human, and grab Imp Initiative as our bonus feat. 2 level pumps is probably Con 14 and Int 16. He has 24.5k gp of gear, probably including an item of Int+2, an item of dex +2, an item of con +2 (12k total so far), and 12k of defensive gear. He has permanencied arcane sight. Important Spells: (DC 14+spell level, 16+spell level for transmutation) 4th: dimensional anchor, enervationx2, polymorph* 5th: quickened truestrike x2, baleful polymorph *are active at start of combat. Assume polymorph is used for a form with good defenses that can still cast spells. The cleric: First of all he's a 10th level cleric, so the keep is protected by an unhallow or hallow effect (alignment dependent), which will prevent any charm monster nonsense. The (un)hallow has dimensional anchor tied to it, which means that the Erinyes will have to check when she teleports in whether she'll be able to teleport out again. Second, the MCvE effect means that the Erinyes, being subtype [evil], cannot actually enter the building if the cleric penetrates her SR. Elite Array + level pumps + wis +2 item probably means an 18 wisdom. (10 +4 spell penetration + d20 to beat 20 means 75% chance to bar the Erinyes from the keep each time the Erinyes tries to teleport in, 75% chance that when the Erinyes does get in she's dimensionally anchored and can't teleport out again). unhallow is slightly less of a problem, unless the Erinyes has an alignment that isn't evil, at which point it fully effects her too. But she can't get rid of the [evil] subtype. Let's also assume he's human. We want him to be a caster threat and a combat threat, so we'll assume he spends most of his feats on combat, but grabs Spell Penetration (since he's going to be using a lot of SR = Yes effects, its perfectly reasonable). He's going to stand near the wizard and keep the heroes (re:Erinyes) away, and probably snag the Stand Still feat. Important Spells: 1st: divine favor* 3rd: prayer 4th: dimensional anchor, divine power*, dismissal 5th: greater command *The priest comes out with Divine Favor and Divine Power already up. Round 1:They come out more than 50' from you, and behind cover so you can't charge. the wizard knows instantly if the Erinyes is dimensionally anchored. If not, he quickened true strikes and hits her with a dimensional anchor. He only fails to penetrate SR with a caster level check roll of '1', so 95% chance no more teleport for you. If you are anchored, he Qtrue-strikes and enervations you for 1d4 negative levels (no save, 95% chance to pen SR) for -1 to almost all d20 rolls you'll ever make. If you still aren't anchored, the priest dim anchors you. If you are, he greater commands you to submit to a dismissal spell (which he'll cast next round). (note, you have no way of getting back from the outer planes on your own). DC 19, you fail 30% of the time, 35-50% of the time if you were enervationed. Alternately, he casts prayer, penetrating your SR 75% of the time, and giving you a -1 to virtually all d20 rolls (including saves). Round 2: The wizard can either go for a baleful polymorph, at DC 21, which succeeds 40% (45-60% with an enervation round 1, +5% with prayer) of the time. Or he can hit you again for 1d4 negative levels. The Cleric can either thrash you or cast dismissal or cast greater command if he hasn't yet (with 2 enervations + prayer you're looking at 60% fail on average, and possibly as high as 75% fail). Assuming you can get past the cleric, you might actually deal some pain to the wizard at this point. Of course, you've also sucked down 2d4 negative levels (each of which takes away 5 hp in addition to -1/negative level to attacks, saves, and skills). Your offensive capabilities are diminishing, you can't tp away, and the cleric can probably thrash you in combat. Round 3: if the wizard is still alive, he baleful polymorphs you if he still has it (average fail at this point 75%, possibly as high as 90%) ------------- Even disregarding enervations and the like, if we assume the wizard goes for SoDs with penetration and spell focus feats, and is dropping ~45% SoDs 1/round (say repeatedly baleful polymorphing you), you expect to last ~2 rounds. And they'll get to go first because they're waiting for you to re-appear. No more Erinyes, hello fluffy bunny.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 06:13 PM	Spells have surfaces now? Rrrright. No comment anything else. No need. It's a 10' radius sphere. Spheres have a surface. How is this so hard to understand? Edit: Every 3+ -dimensional object or effect has a surface. This is a logical requirement. A surface can be thought of as the manifold along which the thing stops (object, effect, etc...). Without a surface, the object or effect is infinite in all directions.
malignor 04-18-07, 06:52 PM	If you don't think the ECL is worth it, look at Post #115 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12137556&postcount=115) which has an Erinyes as a 15th level character and with 1 level in Monk as a 16th level character. Pretty much seals the deal that LA is pretty good in this case.
Balthanon 04-18-07, 07:04 PM	First, you fought some minions and left, which means they expect your returning. Heck, you demand they surrender. They probably also 'soften you up' with minions for a couple rounds before the priest and wizard come out. Regardless, there is plenty of chance to pre-cast for the cleric/wizard duo. Also, see hallow below for effects you have to overcome each time you teleport in. Of course, this is taking place in an open space in front of a courtyard, which means the erinyes has the option of flying away and hiding (which she is pretty good at) as soon as she is dimensionally anchored. :) The spell does have a duration if I recall correctly. Hallow is also rather expensive from what I recall-- if the Erinyes is encountering difficulties from it, she always has the option of coming back another day. If they repeat it (only lasts 24 hours), the lord should be bankrupted soon enough-- which admittedly might defeat the purpose of conquering the castle, but... Forbidden is a bit more permanent, but is even more prohibitively expensive.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 07:08 PM	Of course, this is taking place in an open space in front of a courtyard, which means the erinyes has the option of flying away and hiding (which she is pretty good at) as soon as she is dimensionally anchored. :) The spell does have a duration if I recall correctly. Hallow is also rather expensive from what I recall-- if the Erinyes is encountering difficulties from it, she always has the option of coming back another day. If they repeat it (only lasts 24 hours), the lord should be bankrupted soon enough-- which admittedly might defeat the purpose of conquering the castle, but... Forbidden is a bit more permanent, but is even more prohibitively expensive. ... It takes 24 hours to cast. It lasts forever. (The dimensional anchor effect lasts 1 year unless renewed). (Edit: It costs 5000gp once/year to ensure the dimensional anchor is up. It costs 1000gp once ever to make sure the hallow or unhallow is in effect with no dimensional anchor effect. Considering that you can go from level 1-20 in matter of months by RAW assumptions (4 encounters/day), assuming the warlord has 5000gp/year enchantment in effect is pretty easy to justify, especially since he has a cleric who can cast it). More edit: While i'm on permanent protections, (attuned to the keep's denizens) symbols of pain and sleep are castable by the wizard (or the cleric), will penetrate the Erinyes SR on anything but a '1', and will trigger every time the Erinyes teleports in. Each costs 1000gp.
Fwib 04-18-07, 07:22 PM	[edit] What the post above said. (darn I need to refresh before posting) On the other hand, Hallow only affects a sphere 80 feet wide, so you might need more than one to cover a large building, but you could always get a 13+ HD half-celestial (or whoever else can cast it as an SLA) to cast your Hallows for you, since he can cast them without the nasty gold cost and so will be cheaper to hire.
Argaud 04-18-07, 07:47 PM	Re: Argaud's plot First, you fought some minions and left, which means they expect your returning. Why? Did they magically know the Erinyes has easy access to healing magic? She does not have Fast Healing or Regeneration. Ok, a level 10 wizard minion - we'll give him pretty basic feats: Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, SpFoc + GSpFoc (school), where school = conjuration, transmutation, or illusion. He also has 2 random metamagic feats, because we don't want to deal with crafting - Extend and Quicken. He has scribe scroll but we don't care. We'll make him a specialist in $school and drop evocation and enchantment. Let's assume $school is transmutation, i haven't used that in awhile. NO Lets use the pregenerated NPCs in the DMG which are the official CR10 NPCs. Lets not optimize them to beat outsiders like you did. Go read the DMG and learn what is a normal NPC. (Btw, both have 19 in the primary stat).
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 07:49 PM	[edit] What the post above said. (darn I need to refresh before posting) On the other hand, Hallow only affects a sphere 80 feet wide, so you might need more than one to cover a large building, but you could always get a 13+ HD half-celestial (or whoever else can cast it as an SLA) to cast your Hallows for you, since he can cast them without the nasty gold cost and so will be cheaper to hire. See, a sphere 80' wide will actually cover most of the inside of a keep. (for instance, the outer perimeter of the White Tower is 120'x120'. Once you knock off 10' wall/side (underestimate - probably more like 15'), that's 100'x100' (90'x90' with more realistic wall measurements). Which leaves a mere 5-10' around the perimeter of the tower unprotected. Dover Castle is about the same size. And those are large medieval keeps. Ok, i checked, the White Tower's walls are 15' thick at the base and 11' thick at the top, so my estimates are actually reasonable. Yay ballparking. (Come now, the Normans built over 500 castles in 34 years from 1066 to 1100 - they can't be humongous edifices at that rate). The spell is also somewhat ambiguous. it can effect 40' radius area, but it also allows you to target a structure - at which point it seems like the entire inside of the structure is protected.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 08:18 PM	Why? Did they magically know the Erinyes has easy access to healing magic? She does not have Fast Healing or Regeneration. She comes back and demands their surrender. That's time right there to prepare. NO Lets use the pregenerated NPCs in the DMG which are the official CR10 NPCs. Lets not optimize them to beat outsiders like you did. Go read the DMG and learn what is a normal NPC. (Btw, both have 19 in the primary stat). Because every NPC wizard will be the DMG "NPC example wizard". You're right. How stupid of me. That is just an example, its intended for the 'you run into another adventuring party' random encounter. Its not designed for "this is the planned and thought out enemy spellcaster". So, I have a 3e DMG. These are the (non-given) feats it says: (1) Toughness, (3) Combat Casting, (5) Brew Potion, (6) Improved Initiative, (9) Lightning Reflexes, (10) Quicken Spell. Toughness? Please, the game designers know its a bad feat. And combat casting is also pretty laughable, especially as he's not starting with it. Brew Potion? huh? Improved Initiative - the only good and legal choice here. Lightning Reflexes... wtf? And finally, Quicken Spell, except its not even a legal feat choice because he didn't take another metamagic feat beforehand. Those feats are totally underpowered, poorly chosen, and not even very thematic. You want a decent, quick, thematic wizard design? SpFoc + GSpFoc in your favorite school, Spell Penetration+GSPen, Extend + Quicken spell, Imp Init if human. Effective, flavorful, might actually be CR = lvl. Actually legal. I don't know if 3.5 is different, but anything that takes toughness is not worth talking about. Seriously, in this age of retraining that wizard retrained toughness and combat casting into useful stuff. I also can't figure out where the 3e DMG's stat modifiers are coming from, because it doesn't seem to match up to their gear, but i'm not about to figure it out now. Anyway, I consider those NPCs so much useless junk. They aren't anywhere near the standard set by the monsters. They're totally useless against a party of their level after about 5th level. Official NPC builds :rolleyes: :nonono: That's right, if you actually choose feats for your NPCs you aren't playing by the rules... Lets be serious. They're defending a static location. They know teleport tactics are dangerous. They defend against them. They make feat choices to defend against them. Its really that simple. Its not like they never expect to defend against things with SR - spell penetration is perfectly reasonable as a feat, and an easy thing to throw on a caster when picking through the PHB feat choices. My default NPC wizard design is SpF, GSpF, SpPen, GSpPen, imp initiative, etc..., whether its a PC opponent or ally. Generally useful, flavored to a school, and not using any overly bizarre or specific circumstance feats. (The fact that BBEGs will get specially designed means that each of them has very unique flavor, the above feat build leads to very different spell selection which lends each non-BBEG spellcaster a little flavor). Similarly, the cleric can't just be some 'random adventuring cleric' - he's not, he's an advisor to the warlord and will need to be built as if he's defending a static location as well. For 1000gp, hallow is a "duh" spell defense choice. You'd have to be terminally stupid not to take it. Similarly, Symbol spells are also "duh" choices, because you can key them to the inhabitants, and specifically cover them to prevent accidental triggering by guests if necessary. Not having this stuff in a 9th level site-based adventure like this one is inexcuseable. (and if you brought the party along, the rogue could disable the symbols, and the hallow wouldn't be as big of a deal). And all of those also get the erinyes right where it hurts.
Balthanon 04-18-07, 08:39 PM	... It takes 24 hours to cast. It lasts forever. (The dimensional anchor effect lasts 1 year unless renewed). . That's what skimming the d20 SRD gets me-- still, a physical retreat still wasn't addressed and pretty much negates the dimensional anchor-- with the castles you described a 50 foot fly speed (80 if the wizard in the party decides to contribute with some haste spells) should get her out pretty quickly. ... and ultimately, we're discussing a single character at "ECL 9" holding her own against 2 CR 10 opponents plus a horde of smaller ones. That level of encounter should slaughter a single character-- unless it isn't quite an ECL 9. (For the banishment affects, the party does have access to plane shift to go rescue the character incidentally. Plane shift, sending, greater teleport, plane shift and they're out of Hell.)
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 08:47 PM	That's what skimming the d20 SRD gets me-- still, a physical retreat still wasn't addressed and pretty much negates the dimensional anchor-- with the castles you described a 50 foot fly speed (80 if the wizard in the party decides to contribute with some haste spells) should get her out pretty quickly. ... and ultimately, we're discussing a single character at "ECL 9" holding her own against 2 CR 10 opponents plus a horde of smaller ones. That level of encounter should slaughter a single character-- unless it isn't quite an ECL 9. (For the banishment affects, the party does have access to plane shift to go rescue the character incidentally. Plane shift, sending, greater teleport, plane shift and they're out of Hell.) Except the Erinyes was defeated by a permanent magical effect in this case. The casters just meant she didn't want to fight, they never actually *do* anything in the encounter if the erinyes flees just because of dimensional anchor. If the wizard just drops an SoD on her every round, there's a good chance the Erinyes just dies before she gets far, especially if the wizard can fly after her. (assuming even a 30% chance of failing against a given SoD, P (survive till end of Nth round): N=1, P= .7; N = 2, P = .49; N = 3, P = .343; N = 4, P = .2401;...) It bears repeating that as a non-native outsider, an Erinyes cannot be resurrected/reincarnated/raised/etc...
Argaud 04-18-07, 08:53 PM	Dimensional Anchor is a weird spell to put in a Hallow, given it is actually a ranged touch attack. My guess is it is an errata and they are actually talking about Dimensional Lock. Anyway, both spells have a 50% chances of not getting through the Erinyes SR. That is a bad start, particularly because she will notice pretty quickly and adjust the tactics accordingly.
malignor 04-18-07, 08:55 PM	See, a sphere 80' wide will actually cover most of the inside of a keep. (for instance, the outer perimeter of the White Tower is 120'x120'. Once you knock off 10' wall/side (underestimate - probably more like 15'), that's 100'x100' (90'x90' with more realistic wall measurements). Which leaves a mere 5-10' around the perimeter of the tower unprotected. Dover Castle is about the same size. And those are large medieval keeps. Ok, i checked, the White Tower's walls are 15' thick at the base and 11' thick at the top, so my estimates are actually reasonable. Yay ballparking. (Come now, the Normans built over 500 castles in 34 years from 1066 to 1100 - they can't be humongous edifices at that rate).Ummm... why do these high magic guys suddenly have to comply no non-magical Iron Age standards of construction, building crappy castles that pale in comparison to dungeons built for level 1-3 characters?
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 09:06 PM	Ummm... why do these high magic guys suddenly have to comply no non-magical Iron Age standards of construction, building crappy castles that pale in comparison to dungeons built for level 1-3 characters? Because stone has the same structural properties in both worlds? So you can only build buildings which are so big? Could you build bigger? possibly. But why would you - it would be *less* defensible. Smaller size means fewer people needed per sq ft to defend it. Dimensional Anchor is a weird spell to put in a Hallow, given it is actually a ranged touch attack. My guess is it is an errata and they are actually talking about Dimensional Lock. The effect applies to anyone of some specified characteristic entering the area and persists until they leave it. Hallow specifically covers this. Anyway, both spells have a 50% chances of not getting through the Erinyes SR. That is a bad start, particularly because she will notice pretty quickly and adjust the tactics accordingly. Only if the cleric or wizard (as appropriate) doesn't take spell penetration. Which any cleric or wizard defending a static location *should* take, because assault by outsiders is virtually expected. Either as the primary belligerents, or as summoned monsters for the other side. And its better than 50%, its at least 55% (10 + d20 requires a 10 to succeed against SR 20, which is 55% success). I maintain at least Spell Penetration, and probably GSpPen should be expected on one or both of them. So the keep has adequate protection against typical CR 8-13 outsiders.
Balthanon 04-18-07, 09:11 PM	Rules have no intention. They are words used to describe relationships and interactions in a logical system. They have objective meaning based on the definitions of that logical system. That is the essence of "rules". Similarly, the legal code is a set of rules. Often laws have effects that weren't intended - but that doesn't change how those laws are interpreted or applied. "Intention" is a meaningless concept in a rules document. Went back to look at something and caught this (this thread is growing ridiculously fast.) Rules would have no intention if they were written by modrons and there was no possible room for error. They're not, they're written by human beings who make mistakes, are fallible, and don't necessarily have the perfect words to explain exactly what they're trying to get across. The "intention" built into the rules we find in our books is not the intent of the rules, it is the intent of the creator of those rules. In the case of the legal code-- they're interpreted according to what they are intended to accomplish every single day. That's why we have jurys in place (or at least a side effect thereof) and why you see different results from different trials. The rules and the definitions in play change according to how the judge and lawyers explain those rules to the jury. Rules do not exist in a vacuum as an absolute concept-- they're here to help us live, or in this case, play an enjoyable game. For the most part, on these boards, that tends to be with the most commonly accepted ruling though in a game, it is whatever the DM decrees. ...in a post like this, it is frequently whatever stance keeps the argument running. ;) (For the latest post: The erinyes has a marked advantage against the flying wizard-- she can run while flying. And, if the wizard gives chase, she has the opportunity to get in close and grapple without needing to worry about the cleric. Also, ressurecting an outsider is almost as easy as a human with the revive outsider spell. Possibly not in a core only game, but frankly, I've never played in one of those.)
runestar 04-18-07, 09:16 PM	I am not aware of any rule stipulating that a creature's caster lv must be equal to its racial HD. Where is this provision coming from? Just because the erinyes has caster lv12 does not mean it must have 12 outsider HD. Though if you gave it more HD, you could probably lower its LA to compensate, roughly at a 2:1 ration. So advancing it to 12 outsider HD would probably lower its LA by 1.:)
Argaud 04-18-07, 09:22 PM	Only if the cleric or wizard (as appropriate) doesn't take spell penetration. Which any cleric or wizard defending a static location *should* take, because assault by outsiders is virtually expected. Either as the primary belligerents, or as summoned monsters for the other side. And its better than 50%, its at least 55% (10 + d20 requires a 10 to succeed against SR 20, which is 55% success). I maintain at least Spell Penetration, and probably GSpPen should be expected on one or both of them. So the keep has adequate protection against typical CR 8-13 outsiders. There are slightly better character buildups in the PHB2, at the end - at least I expect they are legal. 3 versions of a cleric (none with Spell Penetration). And 3 wizards, two of which have Spell Penetration (one has also Greater SF (enchantment) and the other SF (evocation) - both get GSP at higher level). Probably none up to your standards of optimization, though. Which means your builds are not what is going to appear in normal, published adventures. Since these builds are what CR is calculated around, this is what the game expects of level 10 NPCs.
Squirrelloid 04-18-07, 09:23 PM	Went back to look at something and caught this (this thread is growing ridiculously fast.) Rules would have no intention if they were written by modrons and there was no possible room for error. They're not, they're written by human beings who make mistakes, are fallible, and don't necessarily have the perfect words to explain exactly what they're trying to get across. The "intention" built into the rules we find in our books is not the intent of the rules, it is the intent of the creator of those rules. In the case of the legal code-- they're interpreted according to what they are intended to accomplish every single day. That's why we have jurys in place (or at least a side effect thereof) and why you see different results from different trials. The rules and the definitions in play change according to how the judge and lawyers explain those rules to the jury. Rules do not exist in a vacuum as an absolute concept-- they're here to help us live, or in this case, play an enjoyable game. For the most part, on these boards, that tends to be with the most commonly accepted ruling though in a game, it is whatever the DM decrees. ...in a post like this, it is frequently whatever stance keeps the argument running. ;) Intention is fundamentally unknowable unless the original writer tells it to you. Regardless, the CustServe interpretation of wild armor was directly contrary to the rules as written, and implied some really weird things about how wildshape and armor work even without the Wild ability. The CustServe ruling on constitution just didn't make any sense in the context of any rules for the game. The erinyes has a marked advantage against the flying wizard-- she can run while flying. And, if the wizard gives chase, she has the opportunity to get in close and grapple without needing to worry about the cleric. Also, ressurecting an outsider is almost as easy as a human with the revive outsider spell. Possibly not in a core only game, but frankly, I've never played in one of those.) Grapple - assuming the cleric didn't cast freedom of movement on the wizard beforehand - ok sure. However, even assuming the wizard gets 1 SoD off, that's a 25-30% of dying outright right there, and the erinyes runs home with its tail between its legs. This is a clear dominating win for the defenders. I imagine the Erinyes runs back to the party and sheepishly asks for help.
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 09:39 PM	I am not aware of any rule stipulating that a creature's caster lv must be equal to its racial HD. Where is this provision coming from? Just because the erinyes has caster lv12 does not mean it must have 12 outsider HD. Though if you gave it more HD, you could probably lower its LA to compensate, roughly at a 2:1 ration. So advancing it to 12 outsider HD would probably lower its LA by 1.:) Where did I say that it is a rule? Nowhere. I just said that it made sense to have CL = HD. You failed your reading check, friend. :) To Squirreloid: just because a Cleric and a Wizard are defenders of a castle doesn't mean that they were always castle-defenders, and thus may have possibly taken suboptimal feats in the past for the situation they are in. You can specifically tailor individual encounters and NPCs to their current locations, but that can be commensurate to metagaming by the DM. Are you sure that you don't run your games as Player vs. DM wargames? That's how you describe your games and the way they are played. I'm not judging here; but it matters to the discussion at hand if you have a different playing style than the "norm", which is not a wargame.
Balthanon 04-18-07, 09:43 PM	Intention is fundamentally unknowable unless the original writer tells it to you. Regardless, the CustServe interpretation of wild armor was directly contrary to the rules as written, and implied some really weird things about how wildshape and armor work even without the Wild ability. The CustServe ruling on constitution just didn't make any sense in the context of any rules for the game. . You can't know intention absolutely, that doesn't mean it can't impact how rules should be interpreted. You can make an educated guess, which is frequently going to take into account other rules within the game-- possibly more than the writer even considered. Intent is important when interpreting the rules, because ultimately we (authors, DMs, players) are looking to create a balanced, enjoyable game. There are some issues with balance when you can double up on the bonuses granted by heavy armor and the Wisdom bonus of a monk-- two AC components that are generally mutually exclusive. The same applies if you are adding your Con bonus to your hit points twice-- we know that polymorph effects had the ability to alter your hit points taken away because the authors thought it was abusive. That intent we do know-- they explained it when they released the errata. Circumventing it via an interpretation of the new rules they released pretty clearly flies in the face of that intent. I don't know what the actual customer service ruling was, so I can't comment on that, but as far as intent goes, it does have its place in the rules in my opinion. Whether that is the exact intent of the person who wrote the rule, the intent of the game, or just the intent of player and DM to have a good time. Grapple - assuming the cleric didn't cast freedom of movement on the wizard beforehand - ok sure. However, even assuming the wizard gets 1 SoD off, that's a 25-30% of dying outright right there, and the erinyes runs home with its tail between its legs. This is a clear dominating win for the defenders. Personally, I was expecting the polymorph card. ;) There are counters for everything with enough time for thought/enough preparation and foresight-- the problem is, if every enemy the players encounter has the perfect counter to their own strategems, they're rapidly going to become disillusioned. DMing in D&D is a fine balance between making encounters seem tough, without utterly destroying the opposition. In the case of your cleric, you never mentioned freedom of movement prior to this-- and in this instance you didn't recall polymorph. Yet, suddenly when the erinyes reverses, the cleric has cast the spell upon the wizard-- not really fair to the players in this case. (And if we get to do that, ourselves, Death Ward is a 4th level spell-- that could well have been part of the "buff me" the erinyes requested in the original post.)
runestar 04-18-07, 10:03 PM	Where did I say that it is a rule? Nowhere. I just said that it made sense to have CL = HD. Well, it does not make sense to me.:confused: Caster lv should be a derivative of cr, not HD, IMO. By your rationale, an outsider's caster lv would increase by 2 for every 2 outsider HD it advanced in, while its cr increases by only 1. Do you see the possible problem here? What wild armour ruling is he talking about? Whether monk's belt stacked with wild armour? They do, don't they? But I digress...:embarrass It is also interesting to note that hallow can be cast in a single round if you replicate it with limited wish, which is useful in a pinch.:) Think I missed quite a bit of stuff, but I don't feel like reading such a huge backlog as of yet...
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 10:06 PM	Well, it does not make sense to me.:confused: Caster lv should be a derivative of cr, not HD, IMO. By your rationale, an outsider's caster lv would increase by 2 for every 2 outsider HD it advanced in, while its cr increases by only 1. Do you see the possible problem here? Yes, I understand that it's a design problem. I was simply stating that since PC's CL = HD (plus any magical or nonmagical means to boost CL), it makes sense for monster's CL = HD (plus any magical or nonmagical means to boost CL). I know that that's not how it actually works.
Alac Luin 04-18-07, 10:27 PM	I was simply stating that since PC's CL = HD (plus any magical or nonmagical means to boost CL), it makes sense for monster's CL = HD (plus any magical or nonmagical means to boost CL). This isn't really true if a PC multi classes, or takes levels in several PRCs. A Sorc 3/ Fighter 4/ Dragon disciple 5 has 12 HD, but is still only Caster Level 3. Racial Hit die work the same as multi-classing.
Jaxgaret 04-18-07, 10:49 PM	This isn't really true if a PC multi classes, or takes levels in several PRCs. A Sorc 3/ Fighter 4/ Dragon disciple 5 has 12 HD, but is still only Caster Level 3. Racial Hit die work the same as multi-classing. True. But in this case the monster's CL was higher than its HD, not lower.
Alac Luin 04-18-07, 11:02 PM	True. But in this case the monster's CL was higher than its HD, not lower. Ahh, sorry for jumping into a conversation and replying out of context. Reading backwards, I see where this line came from.
Runepriest 04-18-07, 11:12 PM	The bottom line is Kreselak is 100% right. A CR N monster is supposed to be as good as a level N PC. Actually worse, because CR N = level N *NPC*, and PCs have 2x the wealth of NPCs. Outsider HD are not that good. 2 good saves, 8+int skill points but the skill list is pretty set in stone (whatever the monster entry has ranks in), and some minor abilities like Darkvision which *Dwarves*, *Half-Orcs*, and *Deep Halflings* get as LA +0 races. Its a d8 HD and 3/4 BAB. And having outsider HD, you've accepted that you're not going to be a primary spellcaster. As in ever. So you end up going rogue or fighter or barbarian (or maybe paladin or ranger) - except you've already got N HD of 3/4 BAB, so you'll never be a great meleer either. Note Real Ultimate Power (TM) comes from being a primary spellcaster, so the fact that you have +bajillion to stats might mean you don't feel small in the pants until 17th level. Penalizing them beyond that is just stupid. Just making them take monster HD has already gimped them. Why must you hate people who want to play monsters? Finally, some specifics: Flying is only game-altering pre-5th levelish, by when everyone can buy a flying mount or cast fly or similar. Most flying races are CR 5 or higher. Besides, it would be too bad if we made the orc barbarians carry longbows too, wouldn't it? Please. Fast Healing in the amounts generally available is meaningless. When a character expects to suck down 40hp/round (pretty typical in the 7th-8th level range for meleers), fast healing 2 is not a combat ability - its a between combats ability. Heck, fast healing 8 is not a combat ability. As a DM I've gotten annoyed with Troll regen/fast healing (why god why do some trolls have fast healing instead of regen?), because the single digit numbers of it they get is irrelevant for their CR. A CR 8 troll needs something on the order of Regen 20 to even be relevant in combat, and even that would be marginal. So fast healing on a PC is marginally better than wands of lesser vigor - and both of them are between combat abilities. Wrong, 3 good saves. Full BaB. And this should not be a "LA rules stink because I can't read the rules arguement.
Kemev 04-19-07, 12:05 AM	So I've been lurking, and I have a few questions: Squirrelloid, you gave a list of highly optimized characters in your campaign. Have you or anyone from your group tried to build a similiarly tricked out erinyes? As for this very long spiel about "Well what if an erinyes stormed Bob's BBQ shack;" has anyone actually played in erinyes character in a competent, non-munchkin campaign? It's hard to be certain on how abilities are going to affect gameplay without any sort of play-tested reference to rely on.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 12:10 AM	There are slightly better character buildups in the PHB2, at the end - at least I expect they are legal. 3 versions of a cleric (none with Spell Penetration). And 3 wizards, two of which have Spell Penetration (one has also Greater SF (enchantment) and the other SF (evocation) - both get GSP at higher level). Probably none up to your standards of optimization, though. Which means your builds are not what is going to appear in normal, published adventures. Since these builds are what CR is calculated around, this is what the game expects of level 10 NPCs. So, the wizard builds in PHB 2 aren't even that bad. Especially if we generalize the enchanter build, we get something really close to the build i proposed. It is (ignoring bonus feats): SpF, GSpF, SpPen, Imp Counterspell, Dampen Spell. Bonus feats: Scribe (fixed), Heighten, Silent. Now, realizing its for an enchanter, changing the metamagic spells make a lot of sense, because heighten and silent aren't as important for a transmuter. I'll stand by Extend/Quicken as viable choices that many players would make, and perfectly reasonable on an NPC casting rays who wants to quicken truestrike. If you kill the non-core feat (dampen spell), that drops GSpPen down into 9th. which makes this build almost identical to mine except it has imp counterspell instead of imp initiative. (It actually says SpPen again, which has to be a typo, because they already took that once). Alternately, Dampen Spell is halfway decent, whereas improved counterspell is a feat I've never seen used in a game by a player or a DM, so i'd probably jettison that instead and keep Dampen Spell. (Its a transmuter - counterspelling isn't very thematic anyway). But I have to say that's remarkably like my SpF, GSpF, SpPen, GSpPen build core for NPC wizards. In light of the PHB2 build, I don't think you can accuse my wizard build of being too unusual. Especially since some of the swaps (ie, the bonus feats) are made because the specialty is different (Transmutation vs. Enchantment - for instance, an enchanter may be the only wizard archetype that can actually justify taking Heighten, because the spells it mostly wants to be casting are Dominate X and Charm X, which are pretty sparsely distributed across the spell levels - and you really want the best possible save DC on those. The Transmuter wants different metamagic). ------- Now, clerics... what the heck are the designers doing in PHB2? Two of three clerics grab Extra Turning as their first feat... that's your first clue they're totally on crack. Of course, one of them does take some (subpar) divine feats, but not having access to any actually good ones, this seems like a poor design decision. Combat Casting at 12th and 15th level, long after the clerics couldn't possibly fail a concentration check to cast defensively? Improved Turning? (Possibly the worst feat in the PHB, and that's saying something). Iron Will? On a Cleric? The bottom line is that melee focused clerics (which two of their builds seem to want to be) need to take melee feats. The PHB2 cleric builds are like handing a straight-class wizard a sword and telling him to go swing, without him having memorized any spells to make melee surviveable. (I'm willing to admit a wizard can twink himself out as a meleer, but only if he planned on doing so). Those builds aren't even playable, much less challenges. And SpFoc(Evocation)? Huh? Most cleric spells that require saves aren't evocation. That feat makes negative sense. I feel stupider for having read those builds. Spell Penetration is at least relevant for a cleric, because many of their spells are SR=yes, Save = no. SpFoc, barring a very SoD focused cleric, is virtually useless, and doubly so in Evocation. The only thing a cleric might plausibly consider SpFoc in is Enchantment or Necromancy - that's where most of their save spells are. Core cleric evocations that allow a save: Sound Burst (2nd), Flamestrike (5th), Blade Barrier (6th), Earthquake (8th), Firestorm (8th), Implosion (9th). That's it. Is that really worth a feat? At 6th level (when you can cast one of those?) Better cast a lot of Sound Bursts? (I'm sure splats add more, i'm not about to perform a search through all of them, but that should give you a rough idea of how rare evocation with a save is). Anyway, I know I would feel like I was insulting my players by running any of those cleric builds as NPCs.
sigma999 04-19-07, 01:46 AM	Caster level from CR? That's like character level from your total gold pieces pool, makes about as much sense. Oh, and please stay on topic, most of the last 2 pages of posts are boring. Too much s***picking. The hypothetical situations are sometimes too specific and therefore unrealistic, given chaos theory and the nature that the longer the expected trajectory of a timeline the less predictability.
runestar 04-19-07, 02:20 AM	Caster level from CR? That's like character level from your total gold pieces pool, makes about as much sense. Probably more sense than caster lv from HD, IMO, since there is not much correlation between a monster's HD and its cr. A monster's cr will determine how strong a party will be when they face it. As such, it is easier to assign an appropriate caster lv based on how strong you want it to be. I never said that caster lv had to equal cr, but in the very least, they should scale in tandem. Conversely, if you make caster lv = HD, this can run into problems if the creature's final cr is too low. For example, blasphemy kills any creature with HD 10 less than its caster lv. Do you want a creature with 40HD but only cr12 accessing it somehow?:P
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 02:21 AM	So I've been lurking, and I have a few questions: Squirrelloid, you gave a list of highly optimized characters in your campaign. Have you or anyone from your group tried to build a similiarly tricked out erinyes? As for this very long spiel about "Well what if an erinyes stormed Bob's BBQ shack;" has anyone actually played in erinyes character in a competent, non-munchkin campaign? It's hard to be certain on how abilities are going to affect gameplay without any sort of play-tested reference to rely on. The first thing I'm going to point out is that I think an ECL 9 Erinyes subtracts elite array from its stats to figure out the modifications for a PC Erinyes. With that in mind, I'll be using the following racial attribute modifications: +6 Str +6 Dex +6 Con +6 Int +8 Wis +8 Cha, having reclaimed my 2 level pumps for 4th and 8th by not getting +8 to a physical stat of my choice. I am going to constrain myself to Core only. Do note I believe in fractional saves. (I do consider Psionics Core, hence Stand Still in the build below). Now, given the previous party I posted, the two logical candidates to think about replacing are the rogue and the druid. In the case of the druid, I'd be building a melee threat. In the case of the rogue I'd need to cover face, trapfinding and disabling, and massive dps. I don't think I can outdamage the rogue, nor do I think I can handle the trapfinding well even with a level of rogue. So it looks like I'm building a melee threat. (Note that the spell-likes make the erinyes more of a fighter/wizard a la duskblade, except a very few spells that are level appropriate). Possible PHB Classes: Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin. (Also note Blackguard, Assassin, and Shadowdancer are reasonable PrCs you can qualify for immediately). Barbarian doesn't seem very interesting or optimal, nor does ranger. Fighter is just a dip for a feat, but we might need it. Paladin is nice for the charisma to saves, but we won't see that at level 10. Lets try: L/N Erinyes Fighter 1 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14 ("1st level" stats) => Str 24 Dex 20 Con 20 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 22 (after racial, +2 level to str) => Str 28 Dex 22 Con 22 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 22 (final, with items) Racial: fly 50', +8 NA, entangle, spell-likes (at will, CL 12): greater teleport self only, charm monster, minor image, unholy blight; summon devil, DR 5/good, darkvision 60', see in darkness, Imm Fire + Poison, Res 10: Acid + Cold, SR 20, telepathy 100', true seeing, proficiency: simple and martial weapons, dodge, mobility, Types: [Lawful] + [Evil] Skills: Concentration +18, Diplomacy +18, Escape Artist +18, Hide +20, Move Silently +20, Spot +18, Listen +18, Sense Motive +15, Tumble +14, UMD +14 Feats: Dodge (B), Mobility (B), Combat Reflexes (1), Combat Expertise (3), Improved Trip (6), Power Attack (9), Stand Still (F) Note - I'm assuming this is replacing the druid in the previous party, and thus it gets to use its xp for crafting with the wizard's and cleric's crafting feats. I report gp amounts actually spent below. Also note: the Erinyes receives a Magic Vestment from the Cleric, and the Cleric makes room for a Magic Weapon for the Erinyes primary weapon (Guisarme). Unfortunately, Enlarge Person doesn't work on the Erinyes, so no size increasing for me without polymorph (which half defeats the purpose of playing a monstrous PC in the first place). Initiative: +6 Defenses: 34 (+1 dodge), DR 5/good, Immunities and Resistances HD: 8 + 8d8 + 1d10 + 60 (110hp) BAB: +10 AoO: 7 Attack: +22 Guisarme (2d4+16) or +20 Armor Spikes (1d6+10) or +17 Composite Longbow (1d8+10) Full Attack: +22/+17 Guisarme or +20/+15 Armor Spikes or +17/+12 Composite Longbow +17/+12 Trip: +13 Saves: F+18 R+16 W+13 Spell-likes: Gr. Teleport, Charm Monster (DC 20), Minor Image (DC 18), Unholy Blight (DC 20). XP Spent: 3440 Gear (49k): Adamantine Freezing Burst Guisarme +1 (+3 from GMW, 18/2 +3 = 12k), Armor Spikes +1 (1k), Acidic Composite Longbow (+9) +1 (5k), bag o' arrows (500gp), Moderate Fortification Mithril Chain Shirt +1 (+3 from MV, 9k), Animated Heavy Steel Shield +1 (4.5k), Belt of Strength +4 (8k), Gloves of Dexterity +2 (2k), Amulet of Health +2 (2k), Vest of Resistance +3 (4.5k), 3x oil of bless weapon (300gp), Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp), MW Tool Hide (concealing cloak), MW Tool Move Silently (Soft Boots), MW Tool Tumble (leather grip-wraps on hands), MW Tool UMD (...), MW Tool Spot (glasses), MW Tool Listen (Tin Can) (300gp total for tools), 150 gp Note: In a non-core build there are a lot of items I'd rather have, but core doesn't have much that's interesting beyond the basics. Notes: No easy way to increase size, but stand still makes an effective option for larger creatures or creatures who are otherwise hard to trip, which is where you'll exercise control of the battlefield. A 50' fly speed means enough mobility that you can probably get in something's face and keep it from running past you. Also note that you threaten 5' with armor spikes and 10' with the guisarme - fun fun fun for the whole family. Great saves, Gr. Teleport to get around Wall of Force and the like, charm monster for special occasions, and minor image for emergency battlefield control (you're using it can free up the wizard to do more important things - having the option of either of you is good). Remember your CL for Charm Monster is like a rockstar at 10th, but after 12th its going to nose-dive in effectiveness (though a simple houserule could fix this oddity). Both PA and CE mean you can choose to optimize for tanking or damage. Dealing with DR: Your weapons count as Lawful and Evil, and you have a magic adamantine weapon. For DR /good you have oil of bless weapon. You'll have to rely on the cleric's Align Weapon spell for DR /chaotic, sadly. Cold iron and silver are probably best dealt with using your bow with appropriate arrows, although creatures you must have cold iron for tend to be low-hp anyway. Honestly, this looks like what I think a level 10 meleer should be able to do - good defenses on all fronts, decent damage, some battlefield control, skills, and some limited level-appropriate spell options. Looks about right to me, will be a little behind at 17th when the game ends, but not enough to not be able to play.
runestar 04-19-07, 02:39 AM	I would also like to use this opportunity to point out that an Erinyes PC does not get the 2 bonus +1 stat boost for its 4th and 8th racial HD, since these 2 points are considered to already have been factored into its initial stat modifiers.:)
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 02:43 AM	I would also like to use this opportunity to point out that an Erinyes PC does not get the 2 bonus +1 stat boost for its 4th and 8th racial HD, since these 2 points are considered to already have been factored into its initial stat modifiers.:) I specifically note I removed them from the racial modifiers, and put them right back where they came from anyway. Ie, subtracting elite array gives you +8 to one physical and +6 to the other two. I made it +6 all and gave the level pumps to strength. Same difference.
Balthanon 04-19-07, 07:57 AM	Caster level from CR? That's like character level from your total gold pieces pool, makes about as much sense. Oh, and please stay on topic, most of the last 2 pages of posts are boring. Too much s***picking. The hypothetical situations are sometimes too specific and therefore unrealistic, given chaos theory and the nature that the longer the expected trajectory of a timeline the less predictability. This thread either addressed the original point long ago or never will-- I don't think there is an on topic anymore. We're arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. :) As for character level from gold pieces-- I was actually thinking about level adjustment awhile back and was thinking that might not be a bad idea. Not actually using wealth to purchase level adjustment, but instead of having a set system where everything requires an LA, instead have a system like the custom weapon and armor system. Personally, I don't believe in level buy back as described in the SRD. However, it isn't hard to argue that there are abilities you pay a level adjustment for that just don't scale over time. What I'm thinking is that when you are creating a level adjustment, a more accurate way to do it might be to have two categories. One is actual LA, which works normally and can't be removed. The other is like paying a flat gold piece for a special ability you put on a sword or armor. You'll just have an XP penalty to start the game. Something like natural armor over maybe 4 or 5 would have a LA associated with it--that is something that a normal character is never going to get on a permanent basis (aside from maybe a druid) and will benefit the character for the rest of their career. Flight on the other hand, might have an experience cost based on the expected level at which you should have it-- say 5th level for lack of a better, so it might cost 5,000 xp. If its high speed/perfect or good flight, maybe that jumps up to 8,000, 9,000, or more XP. This would give a system that should have a similar initial effect to LA, possibly even better given that it helps guide the level at which a character can pick up a character with certain abilities. If you have a +1 LA and a 5,000 XP penalty, you're not going to be playing that character at 2nd or 3rd levels. You might be able to pull it off at 4th, but 5th is really where that XP penalty comes out to be a single level down from the party-- and at higher levels, you're not even down a full level from the XP portion of your ECL adjustment. Putting the whole system together would probably be a pain, but it seemed like an interesting concept to me and not one that I think I've seen before.
AllisterH 04-19-07, 08:32 AM	Silly question time. Why are you (squirrelloid) using the Elite array to determine the creature's racial modifiers? Not trying to be argumentative but reading this whole thread, I don't see an explanation of why you use the Elite Array. The SRD clearly states that the creatures in the various monster manuals are clearly for AVERAGE members of the race which makes sense since that matches up with the PC races and it doesn't make sense that every Dryad/Centaur/Succubus you run into is an "abnormality" of their race since being an adventurer is an abnormality.
Balthanon 04-19-07, 09:35 AM	Honestly, this looks like what I think a level 10 meleer should be able to do - good defenses on all fronts, decent damage, some battlefield control, skills, and some limited level-appropriate spell options. Looks about right to me, will be a little behind at 17th when the game ends, but not enough to not be able to play. Now take that same melee oriented scout, and substitute in class levels and a default race and compare the two. A focused barbarian doesn't quite match the Erinyes for damage and barely for hit points-- when he's raging. The defenses drop to a fraction of what the Erinyes has at any time. The same number of feats, with some that aren't quite ideal, just like the erinyes. Attack bonus drops, the Erinyes is faster, the skills are reduced, though close-- if you ignore the bonuses from the Erinyes stat boosts. And then there are the abilities the Erinyes has that just can't be done with a standard melee build--the spell like abilities, special attacks, spell resistance, telepathy, true seeing. Now, you can say-- "well, yes, see, fighter-types suck, never use them." But that's the part of the game that you're replacing. As much as you despise a fighter, there are players that just don't want to play that spellcasting character. They want the simplicity of melee and that has its place-- they should frankly be doing the majority of the damage because it costs them the least in resources. If you have a player come in with a melee oriented character with a standard race and he's in the same game as this erinyes, he's outclassed on every front with the same type of build. That's why level adjustment exists-- so that doesn't happen and players can assume that if they bring an ECL 10 character to the game, it is going to be on par with other characters of the same type. (Not a given, since there are differing levels of skill in character building, but the field should be as level as possible.) L/N Erinyes Fighter 1 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14 ("1st level" stats) => Str 24 Dex 20 Con 20 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 22 (after racial, +2 level to str) => Str 28 Dex 22 Con 22 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 22 (final, with items) Racial: fly 50', +8 NA, entangle, spell-likes (at will, CL 12): greater teleport self only, charm monster, minor image, unholy blight; summon devil, DR 5/good, darkvision 60', see in darkness, Imm Fire + Poison, Res 10: Acid + Cold, SR 20, telepathy 100', true seeing, proficiency: simple and martial weapons, dodge, mobility, Types: [Lawful] + [Evil] Skills: Concentration +18, Diplomacy +18, Escape Artist +18, Hide +20, Move Silently +20, Spot +18, Listen +18, Sense Motive +15, Tumble +14, UMD +14 Feats: Dodge (B), Mobility (B), Combat Reflexes (1), Combat Expertise (3), Improved Trip (6), Power Attack (9), Stand Still (F) Note - I'm assuming this is replacing the druid in the previous party, and thus it gets to use its xp for crafting with the wizard's and cleric's crafting feats. I report gp amounts actually spent below. Also note: the Erinyes receives a Magic Vestment from the Cleric, and the Cleric makes room for a Magic Weapon for the Erinyes primary weapon (Guisarme). Unfortunately, Enlarge Person doesn't work on the Erinyes, so no size increasing for me without polymorph (which half defeats the purpose of playing a monstrous PC in the first place). Initiative: +6 Defenses: 34 (+1 dodge), DR 5/good, Immunities and Resistances HD: 8 + 8d8 + 1d10 + 60 (110hp) BAB: +10 AoO: 7 Attack: +22 Guisarme (2d4+16) or +20 Armor Spikes (1d6+10) or +17 Composite Longbow (1d8+10) Full Attack: +22/+17 Guisarme or +20/+15 Armor Spikes or +17/+12 Composite Longbow +17/+12 Trip: +13 Saves: F+18 R+16 W+13 Spell-likes: Gr. Teleport, Charm Monster (DC 20), Minor Image (DC 18), Unholy Blight (DC 20). XP Spent: 3440 Gear (49k): Adamantine Freezing Burst Guisarme +1 (+3 from GMW, 18/2 +3 = 12k), Armor Spikes +1 (1k), Acidic Composite Longbow (+9) +1 (5k), bag o' arrows (500gp), Moderate Fortification Mithril Chain Shirt +1 (+3 from MV, 9k), Animated Heavy Steel Shield +1 (4.5k), Belt of Strength +4 (8k), Gloves of Dexterity +2 (2k), Amulet of Health +2 (2k), Vest of Resistance +3 (4.5k), 3x oil of bless weapon (300gp), Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp), MW Tool Hide (concealing cloak), MW Tool Move Silently (Soft Boots), MW Tool Tumble (leather grip-wraps on hands), MW Tool UMD (...), MW Tool Spot (glasses), MW Tool Listen (Tin Can) (300gp total for tools), 150 gp CN Human Barbarian 7 Ranger 3 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 ("1st level" stats) => Str 22 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 (+2 level to str, raging) => Str 26 Dex 16 Con 20 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 (final, with items) (comes close on Str and Con--16 rounds a day) Class abilities: Favored enemy +2, Rage 2/day, Fast movement, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +2, DR 1/--, proficiency: simple and martial weapons (I think its clear who wins on the bonus abilities front) Skills: Climb +20(12), Craft (weaponsmithing) +3(1), Hide +18(13), Jump +20(12), Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6(4), Knowledge (nature) +6(4), Listen +13(12), Move Silently +18(13), Spot +5(4), Survival +13(12), Swim +20(12), Tumble +7(2) (Total of 103 versus Erinyes 124) Feats: Combat Reflexes (B), Combat Expertise, Track (R), Improved Trip, Rapid Shot(R), Power Attack, Stand Still, Endurance (R) (same number, different focus on bonus feats) Note - I'm assuming this is replacing the druid in the previous party, and thus it gets to use its xp for crafting with the wizard's and cleric's crafting feats. I report gp amounts actually spent below. Also note: the barbarian receives a Magic Vestment from the Cleric, and the Wizard makes room for a Magic Weapon for the Erinyes primary weapon (Guisarme). Unfortunately, Enlarge Person doesn't work on the Erinyes, so no size increasing for me without polymorph (which half defeats the purpose of playing a monstrous PC in the first place). Initiative: +3 Defenses: 22, DR 1/--, improved uncanny dodge HD: 8 + 2d8 + 7d12 + 50 (112hp) BAB: +10 AoO: 3 Attack: +21 Guisarme (2d4+15) or +19 Armor Spikes (1d6+9) or +14 Composite Longbow (1d8+4) Full Attack: +21/+16 Guisarme or +19/+14 Armor Spikes or +12/+12/+7 (+14/+9) Composite Longbow Trip: +12 Saves: F+16 R+11 W+7 XP Spent: 3440 Gear (49k): Adamantine Freezing Burst Guisarme +1 (+3 from GMW, 18/2 +3 = 12k), Armor Spikes +1 (1k), Acidic Composite Longbow (+9) +1 (5k), bag o' arrows (500gp), Moderate Fortification Mithril Chain Shirt +1 (+3 from MV, 9k), Animated Heavy Steel Shield +1 (4.5k), Belt of Strength +4 (8k), Gloves of Dexterity +2 (2k), Amulet of Health +2 (2k), Vest of Resistance +3 (4.5k), 3x oil of bless weapon (300gp), Wand of Lesser Vigor (750gp), MW Tool Hide (concealing cloak), MW Tool Move Silently (Soft Boots), MW Tool Tumble (leather grip-wraps on hands), MW Tool Survival (...), MW Tool Spot (glasses), MW Tool Listen (Tin Can) (300gp total for tools), 150 gp (Oh, also, the wizard should be the one casting Greater Magic Weapon-- its a 3rd level versus 4th level spell for him. The lesser rod of extend you used in your original batch of characters technically can't be used for that by the cleric.)
Argaud 04-19-07, 10:12 AM	Now take that same melee oriented scout, and substitute in class levels and a default race and compare the two. A focused barbarian doesn't quite match the Erinyes for damage and barely for hit points-- when he's raging. The defenses drop to a fraction of what the Erinyes has at any time. The same number of feats, with some that aren't quite ideal, just like the erinyes. Attack bonus drops, the Erinyes is faster, the skills are reduced, though close-- if you ignore the bonuses from the Erinyes stat boosts. And then there are the abilities the Erinyes has that just can't be done with a standard melee build--the spell like abilities, special attacks, spell resistance, telepathy, true seeing. Now, you can say-- "well, yes, see, fighter-types suck, never use them." But that's the part of the game that you're replacing. As much as you despise a fighter, there are players that just don't want to play that spellcasting character. They want the simplicity of melee and that has its place-- they should frankly be doing the majority of the damage because it costs them the least in resources. Notice that exactly the same happens if you decide to play a Nymph druid ignoring the LA+7 or a Rakshasa sorcerer without the LA+7. (Both have the same LA than the Erinyes, to make it fair). They totally outclass the LA+0 druid and sorcerer. Nymph: +6 dex, +2 Con, +6 int, +6 wis, +8 cha. Lots of goodies (fae type, cha to deflection, Blinding Beauty, etc). Even assuming an elite array that is still +2, +4, +2, +2, +4, +4 and the special abilities. The Rakshasa is even worse. A sorcerer with good bab, more hit points, far more skill, DR15, superior abilities, +9 NA, etc, etc. At least the Nymph didn't had a companion and wildshape.
malignor 04-19-07, 10:16 AM	Because stone has the same structural properties in both worlds? So you can only build buildings which are so big? Could you build bigger? possibly. But why would you - it would be *less* defensible. Smaller size means fewer people needed per sq ft to defend it.First off, stone in D&D has only the structural properties as listed in the game mechanics. Game mechanics trump physics, and the rest is dependent on the group's imagination & sense of fantasy versus their real world knowledge and suspension of disbelief. If you're playing with a civil engineer with a low-grade sense of fantasy and imagination, yeah stone probably has alot of the same properties. Otherwise, unless you're including wildly fantastic concepts in an otherwise historical campaign, you're making a false assumption. Second off, larger structures populate modules and fiction all over the place. There are smaller structures too, but a castle with CR10+ residents is not likely to be among them. So again, you're talking about a realism campaign and claiming it to be the standard for all campaigns. Fail. Thirdly, only certain parts of the structure need to be protected. Namely the vault, the living quarters of the more powerful residents, and certain strategic locations. The rest is just halls & walls, whose defensive value is mostly to block non-magical sieges. Only if the cleric or wizard (as appropriate) doesn't take spell penetration. Which any cleric or wizard defending a static location *should* take, because assault by outsiders is virtually expected. Either as the primary belligerents, or as summoned monsters for the other side. And its better than 50%, its at least 55% (10 + d20 requires a 10 to succeed against SR 20, which is 55% success). I maintain at least Spell Penetration, and probably GSpPen should be expected on one or both of them. So the keep has adequate protection against typical CR 8-13 outsiders.Note to self - send a group of casters against your fortress, since they decided that *obviously* they have to tailor themselves against outsiders which are so common on the material plane compared to spellcasters at that level. Your guys wasted all their feats on useless Spell Penetration and Quicken Spell (so at 10th level, they can cast quickened 0th and 1st level spells. And since they didn't craft anything, they didn't make a quickened metamagic rod for use with their higher spells. Right?), my casters will walk all over yours. Tailoring a campaign with 20/20 hindsight isn't convincing anyone.
Kemev 04-19-07, 10:34 AM	Notice that exactly the same happens if you decide to play a Nymph druid ignoring the LA+7 or a Rakshasa sorcerer without the LA+7. (Both have the same LA than the Erinyes, to make it fair). They totally outclass the LA+0 druid and sorcerer. Nymph: +6 dex, +2 Con, +6 int, +6 wis, +8 cha. Lots of goodies (fae type, cha to deflection, Blinding Beauty, etc). Even assuming an elite array that is still +2, +4, +2, +2, +4, +4 and the special abilities. The Rakshasa is even worse. A sorcerer with good bab, more hit points, far more skill, DR15, superior abilities, +9 NA, etc, etc. At least the Nymph didn't had a companion and wildshape. Regarding the nymph: Hurray for being able to being able to cast 4 level spells as an ECL 6 character! Or, as long as we're running with this line of thought, imagine the mayhem caused by a psionic mind-flayer whose ECL = CR (even reducing its ML to his HD, and using reduced ability modifiers, it still gets bonuses to every score, and full levels as a telepath). Use schism to mind blast and manifest in the same round! Whee! Won't the party's other casters feel loved?
malignor 04-19-07, 11:04 AM	The first thing I'm going to point out is that I think an ECL 9 Erinyes subtracts elite array from its stats to figure out the modifications for a PC Erinyes. With that in mind, I'll be using the following racial attribute modifications: +6 Str +6 Dex +6 Con +6 Int +8 Wis +8 Cha, having reclaimed my 2 level pumps for 4th and 8th by not getting +8 to a physical stat of my choice.This is mistake #1 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monstersAsRaces.htm#abilityScoresforMons terPCs). Not convinced? Here's some more for ya. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#abilityScoreArrays ) If an Erinyes is to be compared to a level 16 character, PC ability scores have to be added as if the Erinyes in the MM is your "average chump NPC on the streets of Hell", just like an average human with all ability scores in the 10-11s. As for the HD modifiers, the DMG suggests to ignore them. I do the same. Otherwise you need to crack open Savage Species to find out where those stat points don't come from and that's just messy and 3.0-ish. To really look at the Erinyes, I mean really look at them, as a PC, just consider this. They have a Con bonus of +10, giving her +5 to Fortitude saves and +5 hitpoints per hitdie (the statistical equivalent of adding 10 to the die itself, like a d4 becomes a d14, a d10 becomes a d20, etc). They have a Strength bonus of +10, giving +5 to hit and +5 (or 7.5 if 2-handed) to damage, and also +5 to climb, jump, swim, trip, bull rush and grapple. They have a Dex bonus of +10, giving +5 to touch AC, reflex saves, hide, move silent, rope use, balance, other cross-class skills and ranged attacks. They have an Int bonus of +4, giving them +2 skill points per hitdie and bonuses to other skills like knowledge. They have a Wis bonus of +8, which gives +4 to Will saves, spot & listen & sense motive checks. It goes on. Charisma +10. Natural armor. Spell like abilities. Crazy resistances. They are immune to poison and fire and darkness! What would you do with that character? I'd smother myself with contact poison or light myself on fire before combat, douse myself with Oil of Darkness. They have acid resistance 10, so even being covered in acid-soaked rags that do 1d6 damage per round is an option. Here's more. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has almost as many hitpoints as a 15th level BARBARIAN (just shy of a 16th level fighter), thanks to racial con bonus. Do the math. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has a better attack bonus (as if BAB were +14, less the iterative attacks) than a 16th level cleric, monk, bard, rogue or druid (but 1 point shy of a 15th level martial class), just from stat bonuses. Do the math. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has better saving throws than a 16th level MONK, which has the best saves of the core classes, except, maybe, a Paladin. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has the same skill points as a 15th level ROGUE, that's more than a 16th level anything else (more than a Bard16). When you can take as much of a beating as a 15th level barbarian, are as skilled as a 15th level rogue, have better saves than a 15th level monk, and you have spell-like abilities, flight, natural armor, and rediculous resistances/immunities, guess what? You can dominate your comrades in a 15th level party! ECL is accurate. In fact, it may be a little low. An Erinyes is a 16th level character, at least. Y'know, I put a good bit of time into my Post #115 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12137556&postcount=115) and everyone ignored it. It clearly shows what a (non-optimized, low-equipment) 9HD Erinyes and Erinyes9/Monk1 turn out like, and honestly it's revolting how powerful she is. Compare it to any generic 16th or 17th level character in the DMG and you'll see what I mean.
Kemev 04-19-07, 12:54 PM	Malignor, much of your analysis doesn't make much sense. HPs like a 15th level barbarian? What!? You need to show some math on that one. BAB of a fighter (but not really, since it's BAB + Str)? So what? The cleric (probably your main meatwagon by now) is going to be running around with divine power and all manner of other crazy buffs. Again, for the saves: what?! I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion. Basically at at ECL 16, an Erinyes is a vague conglomeration of different abilities that don't really mesh with each other, and don't really contribute to the group. And to be honest, your posted build was not remarkable. You have a combat centered, power attack meleer whose attack bonus is too low to effectively hit things. Further, as your key item, you've given a helm of teleportation to a creature with greater teleport at will. Forgive us for not being impressed. That being said, I'm not opposed to how the LA system fundamentally operates; mostly I think it would benefit from case-by-case tweaking (the erinyes is a fair example). And I definitely don't think it's reasonable for a creature's ECL = CR.
Archtyrant Terevoth 04-19-07, 01:10 PM	Notice that exactly the same happens if you decide to play a Nymph druid ignoring the LA+7 or a Rakshasa sorcerer without the LA+7. (Both have the same LA than the Erinyes, to make it fair). They totally outclass the LA+0 druid and sorcerer. Nymph: +6 dex, +2 Con, +6 int, +6 wis, +8 cha. Lots of goodies (fae type, cha to deflection, Blinding Beauty, etc). Even assuming an elite array that is still +2, +4, +2, +2, +4, +4 and the special abilities. The Rakshasa is even worse. A sorcerer with good bab, more hit points, far more skill, DR15, superior abilities, +9 NA, etc, etc. At least the Nymph didn't had a companion and wildshape. Nymphs and Rakshasas are special cases because their CRs are greater than their hit dice.
DarkRhystar 04-19-07, 01:26 PM	Do the math. Sounds like fun. I will be comparing against level 16 classes since the Erinyes is ECL 16 (9 RHD, 7 LA). In most cases, the gap is already too close or already too wide for the difference between 15 and 16 to matter. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has almost as many hitpoints as a 15th level BARBARIAN (just shy of a 16th level fighter), thanks to racial con bonus. We'll assume that each have the same base Con modifier (as every +1 to both keeps the gap the same). 9d8 Racial Hit Die. +5 Constitution modifier. Her HP is 54 to 117 with an average of 85.5. The Barbarian is 15d12 with no Constitution modifier. His HP is 97.5 to 180 with an average of 97.5. The moment the Barbarian Rages (which he will do in combat), that gap will become much wider. I think you're a bit too optimistic on this one. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has a better attack bonus (as if BAB were +14, less the iterative attacks) than a 16th level cleric, monk, bard, rogue or druid (but 1 point shy of a 15th level martial class), just from stat bonuses. Do the math. It's 2 less than its ECL thanks to the +5 modifiers. Even without the 3rd iterative attack, that's not too shabby. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has better saving throws than a 16th level MONK, which has the best saves of the core classes, except, maybe, a Paladin. Assume Monk's and Erinyes base stats are 10. Level 16 Monk = +10/+10/+10 ECL 16 Erinyes = +11/+11/+10 Not a huge difference, but it's a win for the Erinyes. - a 9 HD Erinyes PC has the same skill points as a 15th level ROGUE, that's more than a 16th level anything else (more than a Bard16). Erinyes Skill Points: 12 * (8+2) = 120 Erinyes Rank Cap: 12 Rogue 16 Skill Points: 19 * 8 = 152 Rogue 16 Rank Cap: 19 The Erinyes loses on both fronts. She has fewer skill points and has a lower max ranks per skill.
Kemev 04-19-07, 01:26 PM	Nymphs and Rakshasas are special cases because their CRs are greater than their hit dice. So some creatures that could be used by players are more powerful than their hit dice suggest? Fascinating. Now only if there were some sort of "level adjustment" system that could be used to gauge their power as a PC race...
Elendur 04-19-07, 01:53 PM	Malignor, much of your analysis doesn't make much sense. HPs like a 15th level barbarian? What!? You need to show some math on that one. 15th level Barbarian: 15*6.5 = 97.5, +30 when raging. Eryines: 9 * 4.5 = 40.5 + 5*9 = 45 = 85.5 For comparison, a fighter has 82.5, a ranger 67.5, and a rogue 52.5 I think ranger is more comparable in terms of party role. Note I'm not counting the ability points you'd buy for your character, or magical items. Those are irrelevent, since the eryines has equal access too them. People really shouldn't bring them up when discussing the value of the ECL. Standard races do have a 3 point ability bump based on being 15th level, so if they chose to put their points in CON it would give them more of an advantage. CON isn't the most popular choice but it's reasonable for a barbarian or fighter. So I think it's safe to safe an eryines by default doesn't have more hit points than a fighter or barbarian, but probably does have more than a ranger. BAB of a fighter (but not really, since it's BAB + Str)? So what? The cleric (probably your main meatwagon by now) is going to be running around with divine power and all manner of other crazy buffs.The attack bonus of a fighter(again ignoring ability bumps and items)= 15/10/5, with his favored weapon it's more likely 17/12/7 (or more if you use weapon mastery). Attack bonus of a eryines: 9+5 = 14/9 You lose an attack. One benefit though is you are equally good at ranged and melee, since both your dex and str are high. For comparison, a rogue has 11/6/1. Personally I'd rather have the 14/9 but for sure losing that third attack hurts. So in straight attacking I'd say the Eryines is roughly equivilent to a rogue. However if you add in the +5 damage, her damage over time goes way up, and probably puts her closer to the ranger again. Again, for the saves: what?! I don't see how you arrive at that conclusion.15th level monk = 9/9/9 Eryines 11/11/10 Paladin 9/5/5, but has the charisma bonus, making it hard to compare. I'd say paladins are going to have better fort saves, and classes with evasion have better reflex saves, otherwise eryines are the best. Whoops, ECL is 16 not 15. Malignor confused me with all the 15th level comparisons. So if you're saying eryines is the best 15th level character ever, that's not really a ringing endorsement for ECL 16 is it? Especially since characters get so much at 16th, ability bump, 4 attacks, etc.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 01:59 PM	Silly question time. Why are you (squirrelloid) using the Elite array to determine the creature's racial modifiers? Not trying to be argumentative but reading this whole thread, I don't see an explanation of why you use the Elite Array. The SRD clearly states that the creatures in the various monster manuals are clearly for AVERAGE members of the race which makes sense since that matches up with the PC races and it doesn't make sense that every Dryad/Centaur/Succubus you run into is an "abnormality" of their race since being an adventurer is an abnormality. I already explained this here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12124464&postcount=54). The basic gist of it is that you can find an NPCs stat mods by subtracting elite array, and those are balanced with class levels. An NPC of CR N is as much of a challenge as a monster of CR N, so 'balanced' stat mods should be calculable in exactly the same way. This has nothing to do with what the rules say about calculating stat mods, and everything to do with what would be *balanced* stat mods according to the rules.
malignor 04-19-07, 02:03 PM	Sounds like fun. I will be comparing against level 16 classes since the Erinyes is ECL 16 (9 RHD, 7 LA). In most cases, the gap is already too close or already too wide for the difference between 15 and 16 to matter. [snip] The Erinyes loses on both fronts. She has fewer skill points and has a lower max ranks per skill.Yeah you caught my critical mistake: I first wrote that as if she were ECL 15 then went "OOPS!" and went in and edited a few things. Guess I missed a bunch. - Swap Barbarian out with "Ranger" for hitpoints. I made the error, then found it and didn't fix what I wrote. Doh! *smacks forehead* - I missed the "+3" in level+3 for skill points. I shoulda used a Bard or Ranger as an example instead. My bad. - The BAB difference is totally a messup on my part. But, all said and done, the Erinyes is still highly capable as a character of that level. Better than 3/4 BAB, best saves, better than D10 hitdie, second best skills, and solid racial/class abilities. Worth every LA. Stat points not included (as in "all are at 10, plus class/race bonuses"), Average hitpoints: Barbarian15 = 16 x (6.5) = 104hp Fighter15 = 16 x (5.5) = 88hp Erinyes9 = 9 x (4.5+5con) = 85.5hp Ranger15 or Cleric15 or Druid15 or Monk15 = 16 x (4.5) = 72hp Attack Bonus: Full BAB16 = +16/11/6/1 Erinyes9 = 9+5Str or 9+5Dex = +14/9* Medium BAB16 = +12/7/2 Low BAB16 = +8/3 * I set this higher because many attacks are not full attacks, and because this allows higher AC to be hit. Iterative attacks have a small, but helpful value. Saving Throws: Erinyes9 = 6/6/6 + 5/5/4 = 11/11/10 Monk16 = 10/10/10 Skill Points Rogue16 = (16+3)x(8) = 152 Erinyes9 = (9+3)x(8+2Int) = 120 Ranger16 or Bard16 = (16+3)x(6) = 114 All I wanted to get across is that the stat bonuses allow the Erinyes' numbers to actually be on par with other 16th level characters. Her special abilities (resistances, SLAs, flight, DR, natural armor) certainly have alot of value, and seem obviously on par with 16th level class abilities in my view.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 02:09 PM	Now take that same melee oriented scout, and substitute in class levels and a default race and compare the two. A focused barbarian doesn't quite match the Erinyes for damage and barely for hit points-- when he's raging. The defenses drop to a fraction of what the Erinyes has at any time. The same number of feats, with some that aren't quite ideal, just like the erinyes. Attack bonus drops, the Erinyes is faster, the skills are reduced, though close-- if you ignore the bonuses from the Erinyes stat boosts. And then there are the abilities the Erinyes has that just can't be done with a standard melee build--the spell like abilities, special attacks, spell resistance, telepathy, true seeing. Now, you can say-- "well, yes, see, fighter-types suck, never use them." But that's the part of the game that you're replacing. As much as you despise a fighter, there are players that just don't want to play that spellcasting character. They want the simplicity of melee and that has its place-- they should frankly be doing the majority of the damage because it costs them the least in resources. If you have a player come in with a melee oriented character with a standard race and he's in the same game as this erinyes, he's outclassed on every front with the same type of build. That's why level adjustment exists-- so that doesn't happen and players can assume that if they bring an ECL 10 character to the game, it is going to be on par with other characters of the same type. (Not a given, since there are differing levels of skill in character building, but the field should be as level as possible.) So, here's the thing: By 10th level one of two things is necessarily true for melee classes. (1) The DM handed them an artifact weapon of awesome with its total powers as yet unspecified. This is basically an item of maintain balance, because the DM can arbitrarily inform the player of a new power it has, letting the meleer keep up and feel useful. Trapped on the other side of a Wall of Force. "Psst. Point me that way and say "spoon"." Poof! Dim Door effect. (2) The Fighter spends every combat Polymorphed and Enlarge Personed, which is sort of like playing an Erinyes. Except you're actually walking around as a War Troll (which has better stats, like +14 NA) but don't get abilities like minor image or charm monster at will. If one of those isn't true, the fighter can't play anymore. So no, the Erinyes doesn't strike me as overpowered - you just don't have to polymorph her every combat (in fact, the player probably refuses because he *wants* to *play an erinyes*, not a War Troll) and you don't have to hand her an artifact weapon of awesome. She'll actually keep up decently well, at least for most of the remaining lifetime of the game. (Oh, also, the wizard should be the one casting Greater Magic Weapon-- its a 3rd level versus 4th level spell for him. The lesser rod of extend you used in your original batch of characters technically can't be used for that by the cleric.) Yes, possibly the wizard should. In the original build, I actually use the extend feat with GMW though, not the rods. (They're listed as extended GMW rather than GMW*). I always forget wizards have that on their list - I'll have to go look at how tight the 3rd level spells are. (I suppose the Erinyes could always supply an appropriate pearl of power).
Argaud 04-19-07, 02:26 PM	Basically at at ECL 16, an Erinyes is a vague conglomeration of different abilities that don't really mesh with each other, and don't really contribute to the group. This paragraph deserves to be remarked. Kemev hits the nail. To deserve to be ECL16 a creature needs to be the equivalent to a competent level 16 character. A lot of good scattered bonuses is not enough. The Erinyes is too much a generalist to be good enough for EL16. It is like having a level 4ranger/6wizard/6druid and toss him in a level 16 party. He has good skills, decent bab, some decent spells, etc. But the abilities do not work well together. A competent level 16 character is a specialist, and he almost utterly dominates his field of specialization. This is also the problem of drow PC. Lack of synergy. They aren't very good at anything. On the other hand, half-ogres, same LA, are amazingly good at hitting things very hard. And are worth the LA. It does not help many of the wonderful things the Erinyes can do are easy to duplicate at level 16 by items and spell of which level 16 characters have so many they never run off them. They were wonderful 6, or 4 levels before, not at ECL16. Which is why I think she should be LA+5, or even LA+4. If you are playing a game with a lot of cheese (which I don't recommend) she might even need to go down to LA+3.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 02:37 PM	Notice that exactly the same happens if you decide to play a Nymph druid ignoring the LA+7 or a Rakshasa sorcerer without the LA+7. (Both have the same LA than the Erinyes, to make it fair). They totally outclass the LA+0 druid and sorcerer. Nymph: +6 dex, +2 Con, +6 int, +6 wis, +8 cha. Lots of goodies (fae type, cha to deflection, Blinding Beauty, etc). Even assuming an elite array that is still +2, +4, +2, +2, +4, +4 and the special abilities. The Rakshasa is even worse. A sorcerer with good bab, more hit points, far more skill, DR15, superior abilities, +9 NA, etc, etc. At least the Nymph didn't had a companion and wildshape. I posted a full method for converting monsters to PCs on page 2. Using that method, I look at Rakshasa and Nymph below. (It should be noted the method assumes the monsters are balanced *as monsters* - if they aren't, the method tells you to disallow them as PC race choices. This is definitely a problem with the Nymph below, and less so with the Rakshasa). Rakshasa: Minimum Level = CR +1, which is 11. It has 7 RHD, so it must start as an 11th level character with 4 class levels and 7 RHD. Stat Mods: +2 Cha, +2 Con, +2 one of Wis or Int, +4 Str (no level pump at 4th level) RHD: 7d8 Native Outsider (Simple and Martial Weapons, Darkvision) Racial: SR27, DR 15/good and piercing, change shape, detect thoughts, Sorceror 7 spellcasting WARNING: Rakshasa has sorceror spellcasting = RHD, which leads to a recommendation of not allowed as a player race as per my previously described method. If for some reason you did want to allow a player to play a Rakshasa, I would recommend reducing its Outsider HD size to d4, and its sorceror spellcasting from Rakshasa RHD to level 5 equivalency instead of 7. But this is totally ad hoc - however, the 'general' method i espouse doesn't cover full caster monsters because they are often poorly balanced. (Also: The SR is kind of crazy, because it doesn't use any normal formula - defined SRs are usually 6+HD, 11+HD or 16+HD. The DR is also kindof obscene. I don't think this is a suitable PC race - and the answer is not LA, because that just makes them a gimped character in other ways which doesn't even begin to make up for it. The ad hoc fixes above would lead to an interesting gish-base to build off of, and probably make it playable - although making the SR = 16+HD (which leads to SR27 at 11th level) is not unreasonable). Conclusion: not all monsters can be handled by the method I proposed on page 2. *Most* can, and the times the method breaks down are easy to identify - monsters that cast as a PC full-casting class in addition to other powerful abilities. Nymph: Minimum Level = CR +1 = 8. RHD = 6, so a Nymph must be created as an 8th level character with 6 RHD and 2 class levels. WARNING: Nymphs have druid casting at a level *higher* than their racial HD. Auto-disallow as a player race. It is not possible to balance such a monster. Notes: Fey are often given ridiculous statblocks where they have HD as a CR N-2 creature and spellcasting as a CR N+2 monster (relative to their abilities). That's just stupid, even from a monster-balance perspective. If they get the drop on the party they can lay down the hurt like a monster of much higher level, but if the party gets the drop on them they get annihilated. All such creatures need to be totally rewritten - they aren't even balanced as monsters, much less as PC race choices.
DEMONisbest 04-19-07, 02:40 PM	From my point of view, LA +5 would be optimal for the class. And of course it is more suited for melee (much more actualy) than spellcasting with its huge ECL (+14 with the proposed LA +5)
Balthanon 04-19-07, 02:51 PM	(2) The Fighter spends every combat Polymorphed and Enlarge Personed, which is sort of like playing an Erinyes. Except you're actually walking around as a War Troll (which has better stats, like +14 NA) but don't get abilities like minor image or charm monster at will. If one of those isn't true, the fighter can't play anymore. So no, the Erinyes doesn't strike me as overpowered - you just don't have to polymorph her every combat (in fact, the player probably refuses because he *wants* to *play an erinyes*, not a War Troll) and you don't have to hand her an artifact weapon of awesome. She'll actually keep up decently well, at least for most of the remaining lifetime of the game. I don't think I've ever handed out an "artifact weapon of awesome" to a fighter in my campaigns* and to tell the truth, they have been by far the most consistent sources of damage in play. (The group is currently 16th level on average, with the exception of a few new players introduced after finishing the original story arc.) Most of the time, they tend to dominate combat in fact, with the mage's playing support by breaking up the battlefield a bit with walls and providing healing. They have never actually been enlarged or polymorphed throughout the course of the game. They have still been able to consistently take down the opponents I place in front of them-- in encounters that were at or above their level in many cases. It is by no means a sure thing that a warrior can't play-- perhaps I just have good players though. All this really says is that what is strong and what isn't depends almost entirely on the campaign. I'm sure that the challenges I throw against the party, challenges which are level appropriate, are entirely different from those that you use Squirreloid. If the challenges you put in front of the party consistently require spellcasting to bypass, then yes, there is a chance the fighter is going to be out of luck. If they can be resolved without, whether through ingenuity, brute force, or skills, then a warrior can be in good shape throughout the game. *Well, not entirely true. The barbarian has been carrying around a Staff of the Archmagi (intelligent staff of the magi) for most of the campaign. The only time it has ever seen use though was as a source of advice and guidance and one time as a "get out of domination" free card when all the fighter-types were dominated by an eastern vampire and attempting to kill the remaining caster cowering under a semisphere wall.
malignor 04-19-07, 03:02 PM	This is way off-base. To call the Erinyes a "generalist" is correct, but assuming this means she's only an also-ran in her aptitudes is wrong. FACE: +10 charisma, lots of skill points, Diplomacy and Sense Motive as class skills, and Charm Monster at will. The only thing that's as good as that is a Bard. COMBAT: So-so attack bonus, but +10 Str means great damage output. DR, energy resistance, spell resistance and high natural Armor. HP just shy of the fighter. The Erinyes makes a pretty good combatant (not amazing, but good). About the equivalent of a Monk16 for skirmishing offense. But that AC and DR make her a defensive powerhouse. MOBILITY: Flight, teleportation at will. No class can come close to a Erinyes in the area of mobility. STEALTH: Impervious to poison and fire defeats a lot of traps. Has the class skills and skill ranks to fill them, and gets +5 to the skills via Dex bonus. Not quite as good as a pure stealth character, but certainly respectable. Add in her mobility and we're onto something. ANTIMAGIC: Spell resistance 20 will only be effective some of the time. But she has the best saves in the party, plus immunities and resistances good enough to make everyone jealous. Again, mobility really turns her into a consummate mage-slayer. WEAKNESSES: I just can't think of any. If you give her the same gear budget as other characters of the same level, she'll be disgusting. She doesn't need equipment to cover her flaws, so instead she can simply focus on her area of choice. Also, here's a good question: What happens when she levels up? - Levelling up as a fighter is also an option, though a crappy one. She's a skirmisher. Monks and Rogues don't jump into Fighter at level 16, do they? - Caster levels are fun, and can really add a boost, but she's so far behind in caster levels it's kinda sad. I wouldn't bother. - I gave her a level in Monk and it was grotesque. With +8 to Wisdom, her AC jumped by another 4 points, and her stunning fist has a sweet DC. - Another good choice is Ranger. She has the strength and AC to make TWF a serious threat (and it makes up for her low BAB and iterative attacks), and she has flight and teleportation, making the Archery option finger-licking good. - Then there's the Rogue. As a rogue, I think the Erinyes is incredible. Continue as a skill-monkey, but with those wonderful abilities and stats! Very appealing. Interestingly enough, there is also the option of building the Erinyes for a Prestige class right away. - Go into Assassin and swoon. This is a killer class for an Erinyes, though those 4 ranks in disguise were an annoying sacrifice. Having a little spell list sure makes it worthwhile though. - Blackguard. Oh my. When you're level 2 Blackguard (ECL 18) your saves just made everyone look like a bunch of weak chumps. That +8 to Wisdom just made your 2nd-rate divine spell list something with looking twice at. The prerequisites are a joke, and a pleasure to select (with +10 str, PwrAtt is a no-brainer - go full-point and you still get +5 to hit from racial strength bonus alone). That +10 racial bonus to Charisma not only rocks your saving throws, but your ability to Command Undead as well. It may be pitiful compared to the Cleric, but getting a few undead fodder to bolster your devilish summoning racial ability sure is nice. Send in the troops and spam Unholy Blight on non-evil foes. What fun!
Balthanon 04-19-07, 03:12 PM	- Levelling up as a fighter is also an option, though a crappy one. She's a skirmisher. Monks and Rogues don't jump into Fighter at level 16, do they? Depends on whether they want the vaunted +16 BAB for 4 attacks in epic level. ;) It has been known to happen. Personally, as an ECL 20 build, I would probably be tempted to go Blackguard 2/Swordsage 2 with an Erinyes. Wisdom to AC in armor trumps basic Wisdom to AC and the stunning fist DC isn't going to be ideal anyway, since you're missing hit dice, which I believe contribute to it with character level. Only 3rd level maneuvers, but better than nothing.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 03:18 PM	I don't think I've ever handed out an "artifact weapon of awesome" to a fighter in my campaigns* and to tell the truth, they have been by far the most consistent sources of damage in play. (The group is currently 16th level on average, with the exception of a few new players introduced after finishing the original story arc.) Most of the time, they tend to dominate combat in fact, with the mage's playing support by breaking up the battlefield a bit with walls and providing healing. It sounds like the wizard(s) are playing the 'make everyone play like a rockstar' strategy, which I suppose is a way the fighter can keep up if you tend to fight multiple monsters - it turns appropriately ELed encounters into multiple smaller encounters. Remember, this is really an effect of the wizard being awesome in a way that benefits the fighters. Single challenging monsters, on the other hand, are another bag of chips entirely. Admittedly, there are still 'make everyone play like a rockstar' strategies for the wizard. I actually like that wizard archetype, because it means the DM has to do less work to make the meleers feel like they matter. The thing to remember is that damage stopped mattering a long time ago. SoDs and similar effects are the rule of the game in high-level play. (Using SoD in the broad sense here - making an opponent "helpless" so you can plink it with crossbow bolts at your leisure, or making it helpless so you can CDG it repeatedly counts). I imagine you don't have any combat druids or clerics in your party? They have never actually been enlarged or polymorphed throughout the course of the game. They have still been able to consistently take down the opponents I place in front of them-- in encounters that were at or above their level in many cases. It is by no means a sure thing that a warrior can't play-- perhaps I just have good players though. Or your warrior players are much better than your caster players (although it sounds like your wizard has his stuff together). With sufficient splats and multiclassing, a warrior can look pretty impressive when he's not standing next to CoDzilla. All this really says is that what is strong and what isn't depends almost entirely on the campaign. I'm sure that the challenges I throw against the party, challenges which are level appropriate, are entirely different from those that you use Squirreloid. If the challenges you put in front of the party consistently require spellcasting to bypass, then yes, there is a chance the fighter is going to be out of luck. If they can be resolved without, whether through ingenuity, brute force, or skills, then a warrior can be in good shape throughout the game. Its not so much requiring spells to bypass as I'm a big fan of the following two types of encounters: (1) single CR+2-4 monsters. The party has action advantage but when the thing acts its going to be nasty. (2) multiple opponents such that there is at least 1/party member, each near CR-2 to CR-1. (CR +-0 = APL in above examples) These are tough but beatable encounters. It also lets me make the players sweat without having to run multiple speedbump encounters to drain resources (which is mostly an annoyance as far as play goes). (My experienced players also have an inordinate fondness for (druid or rogue) or warrior-types (person depending)... the arcanist in the current campaign isn't a wiz/sor but more like a warlock (Conduit of the Lower Planes - F+K Tome of Fiends), and the cleric is inexperienced. This leads to very little novaing - something I would have to adjust for otherwise). I also like monsters with spellcasting abilities - doesn't require spellcasting to beat, but it certainly helps. Especially at high levels, many melee monsters just eat warrior-types but die quickly to wizards. *Well, not entirely true. The barbarian has been carrying around a Staff of the Archmagi (intelligent staff of the magi) for most of the campaign. The only time it has ever seen use though was as a source of advice and guidance and one time as a "get out of domination" free card when all the fighter-types were dominated by an eastern vampire and attempting to kill the remaining caster cowering under a semisphere wall. That sounds like it should have been a TPK right there =) Yes, good reactive DMing can prevent TPKs by favoring good narrative solutions (takes them prisoner instead, spiffy artifact level item gets someone back in the fight, etc...).
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 03:37 PM	So lets assume the Erinyes really is ECL 16 at the moment. Earlier I posted all the CR16 monsters in the MM and analyzed the Erinyes strategies and chances against them. Here's that list again: Planetar: Def: hp 133, AC32, Will +15, SR30. Your best offense is melee attacks (hitting 50%) Off: Att +23 before buffing, Mass Charm Monster DC24 CL17 (50% chance to work against you, and effects other party members), PWStun (auto stuns you), Cleric casting as a 17th level cleric (typically prepares Holy Word). Conclusion: Owns Erinyes. Devil, Cornugon: Def: 172hp, AC35, Will +15, SR28. Your best offense is melee, even though you hit <50%, SR 28 means only 20% chance of Charm going through. Off: +25 attack (reach), Fort DC 27 or be stunned on hit, some spell-likes no one cares about. Conclusion: Melee slugfest, twice Erinyes hp, hits slightly more often, stuns. Owns Erinyes. Golem, Greater Stone: Def: 271hp, AC 27, Will +14 (Imm mind-affecting), SR infinite. Your best offense is minor image... Its mindless, it never tries to interact with the illusion. Off: +42 slam, slow. Conclusion: You win, because you can cast Minor Image. A 3rd level wizard also wins this encounter. Ho-hum. Nigthtshade, Nightwalker: Def: 178hp, AC32, Will +19, SR 29. Best offense is attacking it... Hitting 50% of the time. Def: +24 slam, DC24 paralyze, some DC 18-21 SoDs (no one cares much). Conclusion: slugfest that you lose, but not very fast. Now, note there are 4 of them. So a reasonable encounter for a 4-person APL 16 party is one of each of them. You, the Erinyes, has to deal with one by yourself. Which one do you choose? I take the Greater Stone Golem, honestly. I just sit there concentrating on minor image, but it means no one is getting hosed by it. If the wizard gets a moment, he can sleet storm where it is (or grease), basically putting it out of the fight so we can deal with everything else, and the Erinyes can help someone else. But she's not going to be that much help - her offenses are seriously lacking, and she can't even get near the planetar without being hosed. Keep in mind, a 3rd level wizard follower (not cohort, follower) could deal with the Greater Stone Golem in the same way.
malignor 04-19-07, 03:41 PM	My classes of choice for an ECL20 build are Erinyes9/Monk4 (1d8 unarmed strikes, flurry of blows, nice AC bonus, even better saves, evasion, Ki Strike magic, 2 bonus feats) Erinyes9/Rogue4 (Evasion, uncanny dodge, amazing skills, +2d6 sneak attack) Erinyes9/Ranger4 (Bonus feats, BAB, Ranger spell list allows access to some Divine wands and 1st level spells) Erinyes9/Blackguard4 (Saves, command undead, divine spell list, BAB) I wouldn't multiclass simply because they don't have a favored class. If going into epic levels, these are all solid choices for an unbounded character level.
malignor 04-19-07, 03:43 PM	So lets assume the Erinyes really is ECL 16 at the moment. Earlier I posted all the CR16 monsters in the MM and analyzed the Erinyes strategies and chances against them. Here's that list again:Okay, great! Now just pit the same creatures against any 16th level character with 10% of their equipment and all stats of 10 or 11. Then you're doing it fairly.
DarkRhystar 04-19-07, 03:47 PM	Okay, great! Now just pit the same creatures against any 16th level character with 10% of their equipment and all stats of 10 or 11. Then you're doing it fairly. I don't understand what Squirreloid is getting at either. Facing a monster of CR equal to your ECL is an Overpowering Challenge; it's supposed to be extremely difficult. By EL standards, a single ECL 16 is a decent match up for an encounter of EL 12 however.
Tony Vargas 04-19-07, 03:48 PM	Why do they say its equivalent to a lvl 15 PC but a dm can send one out to fight a LVL 8 PC. It's because abilities that only make a monster frustrating or dangerous to a party make a PC devestatingly overpowered. Take unlimitted teleport, for instance: a monster can use that to escape a battle going against it, but PCs can quickly acquire a few uses of Dimensional Anchor to foil it next time, even at 7th or 8th level, OTOH, a PC with unlimitted teleport will face many monsters that don't have the option of Dimensinal Anchor, and can't regenerate or restore hps lost, while the PC probably will have healing & buffing via items or allies, and could systematically use the teleport to wear down and defeat much more powerful foes. Another good example is the Unholy Blight. A PC cleric with the evil domain gets one per day - the Erynyes, unlimitted use. For a monster, that's big, but not that big, since the PCs will beat it down pretty quickly - it might throw it three or so times, if it does little else. For a PC, it's huge - it might see use a dozen times a day.
Balthanon 04-19-07, 03:56 PM	It sounds like the wizard(s) are playing the 'make everyone play like a rockstar' strategy To an extent, the wizards are playing in that category-- they have gotten into that habit though, because a lot of their offense just hasn't matched that of the warriors. One of the newer players throws around the occassional save or die spell, but frankly... that save portion interferes fairly often. There is only so much you can do to DCs in 3.5 and saves frequently outstrip them by a fair amount. Two of my most recent combats were actually against single, higher CR creatures. In the most recent, the one that prompted the breaking apart the battlefield comment, it was actually against a single pyrohydra. Most of the higher level characters were gone, so it was a new druid (combat druid) and spellsword, plus a single mage-type character. (The "wizard" if you will, though it is a very loose spellcasting system due to the campaign.) The spellsword tried at least three save or dies that all failed during the battle and the walls were utilized primarily to save characters who couldn't quite get away from a full attack by the hydra. The other high CR fight that I put them up against was actually a gargantuan black (picked up the miniature and had to use it at least once. ;)) at the lowest CR it could hit. They did have help in that battle such that they only needed to get it down to about half hit points-- that still meant chewing through almost 250 hit points though. The AC was high, the damage on an attack atrocious, the thing had all the defenses and bonuses for which dragons are known. The warriors were the ones who ended up bringing it down to the point it needed to be at though-- the damage the spellcasters could do just couldn't compete and save or dies weren't cutting it. Working together though, all of the players were able to get the warriors in and out to deal the damage necessary. (This was also just after a melee with a dozen rakshasa warriors, which drained people a bit.) The players all work together, but the wizard is not carrying the fighter by any means in these fights. Without either component, all of them would likely be dead.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 04:06 PM	Okay, great! Now just pit the same creatures against any 16th level character with 10% of their equipment and all stats of 10 or 11. Then you're doing it fairly. No, actually, I was assuming your Erinyes build. The MM erinyes does a lot worse, because she can't melee them either.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 04:07 PM	I don't understand what Squirreloid is getting at either. Facing a monster of CR equal to your ECL is an Overpowering Challenge; it's supposed to be extremely difficult. By EL standards, a single ECL 16 is a decent match up for an encounter of EL 12 however. 4 CR = APL is an EL +4 encounter. 15% of encounters are supposed to be that difficult. Its not even overpowering, its only 'very difficult' (note, 15% of encounters is approximately once in 6 encounters - that's one every 2 days of adventuring).
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 04:21 PM	To an extent, the wizards are playing in that category-- they have gotten into that habit though, because a lot of their offense just hasn't matched that of the warriors. One of the newer players throws around the occassional save or die spell, but frankly... that save portion interferes fairly often. There is only so much you can do to DCs in 3.5 and saves frequently outstrip them by a fair amount. Two of my most recent combats were actually against single, higher CR creatures. In the most recent, the one that prompted the breaking apart the battlefield comment, it was actually against a single pyrohydra. Most of the higher level characters were gone, so it was a new druid (combat druid) and spellsword, plus a single mage-type character. (The "wizard" if you will, though it is a very loose spellcasting system due to the campaign.) The spellsword tried at least three save or dies that all failed during the battle and the walls were utilized primarily to save characters who couldn't quite get away from a full attack by the hydra. The other high CR fight that I put them up against was actually a gargantuan black (picked up the miniature and had to use it at least once. ;)) at the lowest CR it could hit. They did have help in that battle such that they only needed to get it down to about half hit points-- that still meant chewing through almost 250 hit points though. The AC was high, the damage on an attack atrocious, the thing had all the defenses and bonuses for which dragons are known. The warriors were the ones who ended up bringing it down to the point it needed to be at though-- the damage the spellcasters could do just couldn't compete and save or dies weren't cutting it. Working together though, all of the players were able to get the warriors in and out to deal the damage necessary. (This was also just after a melee with a dozen rakshasa warriors, which drained people a bit.) The players all work together, but the wizard is not carrying the fighter by any means in these fights. Without either component, all of them would likely be dead. I guess my real question is: What are the divine casters doing? Because theyre the ones i notice replacing meleers in mid-high levels.
Balthanon 04-19-07, 04:27 PM	4 CR = APL is an EL +4 encounter. 15% of encounters are supposed to be that difficult. Its not even overpowering, its only 'very difficult' (note, 15% of encounters is approximately once in 6 encounters - that's one every 2 days of adventuring). Of course, that is a bit misleading-- 2 CR 16s are also a "very difficult" encounter. And even if the party is going up against 4 CR 16s with an average party level of 16, they should not be trying to each choose one and solo it. That's likely to result in four very individual TPKs for the party. They should be trying to split those monsters up, then take them on discretely, putting one down at a time before focusing on the next threat. (Chosen either by damage that the creature is doing to the party or whichever one is easiest to take out most likely.)
Balthanon 04-19-07, 04:37 PM	I guess my real question is: What are the divine casters doing? Because theyre the ones i notice replacing meleers in mid-high levels. The druid is going toe to toe, summoning, buffing and occassionally healing. The toe to toe part generally doesn't compete from a damage standpoint with the two fighters in the party, but it is frequently more efficient than using up spell slots. Against the hydra, it was actually summoned earth elementals that ended up bringing it down after it was penned in though. The cleric... consider it more of a mystic theurge type than a straight cleric. Like I said, casting in my campaign is a bit odd, and while it is primarily divine, it has some arcane elements to it. (Might or might not be familiar with it, but the base class for the character is actually initiate, out of the Wheel of Time.) That is the mage that utilizes primarily battlefield control, healing, and some direct damage when appropriate.
malignor 04-19-07, 04:47 PM	No, actually, I was assuming your Erinyes build.Oh! Well, then. Planetar: First things first - Charm Monster will fail, what with that 3.5% chance of success (leading to just under a 3.5% chance of victory, because of Initiative bonuses and SR). So, priority 1 is to always remain 200'+ away and keep up the Unholy Blight spam (range 220', 20' radius, so 0-225' away is Blight range). Maybe keep up the arrows, too, since both Unholy Blight and attacks ignore regeneration. If she doesn't have enough arrows to whittle him down, it could get really bad. Cornugon: Charm monster 45% (save) of 20% (SR), so 9% success. Minor Image 35% success (save). Superior Diplomacy, even taking the -10 to do it in one round. She as options. Nightwalker: Thanks to superior mobility and archery, this isn't such a joke. 1d6 fire per arrow, crits do x3 damage which bypass DR, and if any of her arrows are silver (every archery character I've played has 20 silver and 20 cold iron and 20 adamantine arrows, in addition to 40 normal ones), that's 20 good arrows, and thanks to her potion of Cat's Grace, 6 of them hit. 6 x 1d8+7+1d6fire = 90 hp, 88 hp left. 88hp/3.5fire per hit from non-silver arrow... 83 arrows later he would drops, if she had enough. There's the problem of its Hold Monster or Confusion SLAs, which have a decent chance of working and ruining her day. What I'm wondering, though, is how well any class but a full caster (with mostly RANDOM equipment) would stack up against these challenges. Any level of optimization would have made these battle go alot better for her. Then, of course, there's always the fun in arena combat being utterly useless in determining the application of a character. Team play is what it's about.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 05:29 PM	Oh! Well, then. Planetar: First things first - Charm Monster will fail, what with that 3.5% chance of success (leading to just under a 3.5% chance of victory, because of Initiative bonuses and SR). So, priority 1 is to always remain 200'+ away and keep up the Unholy Blight spam (range 220', 20' radius, so 0-225' away is Blight range). Maybe keep up the arrows, too, since both Unholy Blight and attacks ignore regeneration. If she doesn't have enough arrows to whittle him down, it could get really bad. You didn't seriously propose throwing a 10d6 damage spell at him, did you? .... (It could of course use holy smite against you, but why would it bother...). Your build has +16 with a bow, hitting a mere 25% of the time. Assuming it doesn't cast Holy Aura (another +4 AC among other effects). It flies faster than you, so every so often you'll need to teleport away. It can heal itself. Really, if you stand off like that it probably just goes after another member of the party. 200' is a lot of distance for typical battlegrounds, but ok. It also can SMIX a Leonal, which has Wall of Force at will - it can make you be near it if you want to do anything to it. (I'm not claiming you can't escape, just that you can't do anything to it, and your only option is retreat). Cornugon: Charm monster 45% (save) of 20% (SR), so 9% success. Minor Image 35% success (save). Superior Diplomacy, even taking the -10 to do it in one round. She as options. Yes, except the Rogue or Bard diplomacizes better than you do. Its not a very good offense. Minor Image probably is your best chance of success here. Nightwalker: Thanks to superior mobility and archery, this isn't such a joke. 1d6 fire per arrow, crits do x3 damage which bypass DR, and if any of her arrows are silver (every archery character I've played has 20 silver and 20 cold iron and 20 adamantine arrows, in addition to 40 normal ones), that's 20 good arrows, and thanks to her potion of Cat's Grace, 6 of them hit. 6 x 1d8+7+1d6fire = 90 hp, 88 hp left. 88hp/3.5fire per hit from non-silver arrow... 83 arrows later he would drops, if she had enough. There's the problem of its Hold Monster or Confusion SLAs, which have a decent chance of working and ruining her day. It basically has a lot of time to nail you with an SLA, and you're taking one attack per round at that rate of success. What I'm wondering, though, is how well any class but a full caster (with mostly RANDOM equipment) would stack up against these challenges. Any level of optimization would have made these battle go alot better for her. Then, of course, there's always the fun in arena combat being utterly useless in determining the application of a character. Team play is what it's about. Well, the theoretical goal here is to keep the monster from ganging up with a buddy against one of your own. (Yes, Balthanon, the party could and maybe should eliminate them 1 by 1, but the monsters can do the same thing to the party). Anyway, I'm pretty sure any ECL 16 character with 16 class levels performs better than this offensively, even if their defenses aren't as good - and offense dominates in D+D. Many of these monsters, with your stand-offish tactics, are probably just going to ignore you and go after another more vulnerable party member. At which point you have to ask what role you're playing in the party, since you can't replace the arcane caster, the divine caster, or the rogue. I think playing an erinyes at ECL 16 would lead to you feeling pretty ineffective as your defensive abilities can't be capitalized upon because you don't have the hp to actually go toe-to-toe in any of the tough fights.
Argaud 04-19-07, 05:30 PM	Of course, that is a bit misleading-- 2 CR 16s are also a "very difficult" encounter. And even if the party is going up against 4 CR 16s with an average party level of 16, they should not be trying to each choose one and solo it. That's likely to result in four very individual TPKs for the party. They should be trying to split those monsters up, then take them on discretely, putting one down at a time before focusing on the next threat. (Chosen either by damage that the creature is doing to the party or whichever one is easiest to take out most likely.) What happens in this kind of encounters is that one of the PCs tries to "tank" 3 of the monsters while the other 3 go nova on the 4th. In this case they would probably try take out the planetar first, because if starts buffing the other three the party is doomed. As for the single ECL16 Erinyes... she is rather more powerful than the one posted due to having 211,000 more gold pieces to purchase magical gear. Add Rings of Spellturning and Freedom of Movement, improve her Cloak of Resistance and AC items (get her AC40+) and check if she can do it now. My guess is the Planetar will still trounce her, but the others won't have it that easy. And the Planetar can trounce almost any ECL16 character.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 05:40 PM	Of course, that is a bit misleading-- 2 CR 16s are also a "very difficult" encounter. And even if the party is going up against 4 CR 16s with an average party level of 16, they should not be trying to each choose one and solo it. That's likely to result in four very individual TPKs for the party. They should be trying to split those monsters up, then take them on discretely, putting one down at a time before focusing on the next threat. (Chosen either by damage that the creature is doing to the party or whichever one is easiest to take out most likely.) Well, what you want to do is prevent them from ganging up on you. Yes, I totally agree that separating them and smacking down on one or two of them is the right tactic - but they can do it to you too! One of them has teleportation - and the Planetar can SMIX a buddy who can drop Wall of Force at will. That leads to a pretty brutal combat dynamic right there. The Nightstalker can summon some shadows to make things more fun - who will ignore most attempts to keep them out of the combat. The Planetar has Disintegration to deal with a Wall of Force, Earthquake to tumble a wall of stone, can push over a wall of iron, and has lots of other possible magical countermeasures. If we ignore the fact that he and the Cornugon hate each other (this is team monster after all), the Cornugon probably uses the Planetar's location to decide where to fight (the Planetar being the nastiest of the group in a lot of ways). You'll note that 'winning' against the golem was using Minor Image to put an illusory wall around it. It just sits there, and that's fine - you've eliminated any threat it might have had. (The golem really is the weakest link). That's divide and conquer. So, if the wizard 'takes' the Nightstalker and Wall of Forces it away from the battle, that's actually ok as a solution. But the Rogue might find himself wall of forced in with the Planetar as well - what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
malignor 04-19-07, 06:16 PM	Well, the theoretical goal here is to keep the monster from ganging up with a buddy against one of your own.Singling out enemies is not how group combat works. There are spells and abilities which affect areas, multiple creatures, or synergize with existing abilities. These "stand-offish" tactics can lure a monster away for a few precious rounds, which has been known to turn the tide of many a combat.Anyway, I'm pretty sure any ECL 16 character with 16 class levels performs better than this offensively, even if their defenses aren't as good - and offense dominates in D+D. Many of these monsters, with your stand-offish tactics, are probably just going to ignore you and go after another more vulnerable party member. At which point you have to ask what role you're playing in the party, since you can't replace the arcane caster, the divine caster, or the rogue. I think playing an erinyes at ECL 16 would lead to you feeling pretty ineffective as your defensive abilities can't be capitalized upon because you don't have the hp to actually go toe-to-toe in any of the tough fights.The numbers suggest that the Erinyes is something like a Bard with the offensive level of a Monk, but harder to kill than both and with exceptional staying power (SLAs at will). How you expect a Monk16 with reduced equipment, randomized gear and non-optimal build to take on a Planetar is beyond me. Also, adding class levels makes those high stats show more and more, as skill points and hitpoints increase more per level than any other class. So after the "tough" level 16, when she levels, it can get well out of hand.
Kemev 04-19-07, 06:19 PM	This scenario assumes the golem isn't taking orders from the planetar or whoever. If it is, the planetar can point out the rogue or whoever seems most damaged and say "Smash him." The defensive abilities of the erinyes really don't mean squat. She's not a credible threat in combat; her SLAs have minimal chance to be useful (at best she can keep flinging 5d6 damage on the planetar), and her attack rolls are simply not high enough to hit consistently. The DM's not under any obligation to send an opponent chasing after an ineffectual character; more likey the monsters (which are quite smart) will gang up and squash a PC who's actually important. Also, I'm starting a new thread. I'd like to tackle the problem of the LA system in general instead of the erinyes in particular.
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 06:22 PM	Singling out enemies is not how group combat works. There are spells and abilities which affect areas, multiple creatures, or synergize with existing abilities. These "stand-offish" tactics can lure a monster away for a few precious rounds, which has been known to turn the tide of many a combat.The numbers suggest that the Erinyes is something like a Bard with the offensive level of a Monk, but harder to kill than both and with exceptional staying power (SLAs at will). How you expect a Monk16 with reduced equipment, randomized gear and non-optimal build to take on a Planetar is beyond me. Also, adding class levels makes those high stats show more and more, as skill points and hitpoints increase more per level than any other class. So after the "tough" level 16, when she levels, it can get well out of hand. Let me correct something: 16 levels of any class which hopes to do anything. Monks are just unplayable - I'm not even going to try to defend them. At least a 1/2E Bard can grab its racial substitution level and tell the Planetar to "chill" with a Will DC: you're never going to make it. (Even without skill-cheesing). It should also be noted that none of the Erinyes at-will abilities are really all that significant at 16th level, except for maybe Teleport - and that's only because you can't Wall of Force the Erinyes out and similar - assuming she wants to get in... which may well usually be no. And she can run away better than any other PC except maybe a wizard. Go you. (The wizard certainly has as much minor image and charm monster as he'll ever need at those levels, with better CL and probably better save DCs).
malignor 04-19-07, 07:14 PM	Well, then, let me propose a non-random equipment listing, more suited to her abilities and style. Size/Type: Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful) Hit Dice: 9d8+90 (134 hp) Initiative: +6 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good) Armor Class: 37 (+9 Dex, +8 natural, +6 armor, +4 deflection), touch 21, flat-footed 28 Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+18 Attack: Longsword +20 melee (1d8+11+1Con/19-20; 1d8+15+1con if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +19 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +18 ranged (entangle) Full Attack: Longsword +20/+15 melee (1d8+11+1Con/19-20; 1d8+15+1Con if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +19/+14 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +18 ranged (entangle) Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. Special Attacks: Entangle, spell-like abilities, summon devil Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, spell resistance 20, telepathy 100 ft., true seeing Saves: Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +11 Abilities: Str 28 (22), Dex 28 (22), Con 30 (24), Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 26 (22) Skills: Concentration +20 (10 ranks), Diplomacy +24 (10 ranks, +4 synergy), Escape Artist +19 (10 ranks, +2 synergy against bindings), Hide +19 (10 ranks), Knowledge (planar) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (arcana) +14 (10 ranks), Knowledge (nobility) +9 (5 ranks), Knowledge (geography) +9 (5 ranks), Listen +15 (10 ranks), Move Silently +19 (10 ranks), Search +14 (10 ranks), Sense Motive +15 (10 ranks), Spellcraft +8 (crossclass, 2 ranks, +2 synergy), Spot +15 (10 ranks), Survival +15 (10 ranks, +2 synergy following tracks, +2 synergy in other planes, +2 synergy navigation), Use Rope +19 (10 ranks, +2 synergy with bindings) Feats: Dodge(b), Mobility(b), Quicken Spell Like Ability (Minor Image), Flyby Attack, Spring Attack, Power Attack Racial Abilities An erinyes’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Entangle (Ex): Each erinyes carries a stout rope some 50 feet long that entangles opponents of any size as an animate rope spell (caster level 16th). An erinyes can hurl its rope 30 feet with no range penalty. Typically, an erinyes entangles a foe, lifts it into the air, and drops it from a great height. Spell-Like Abilities: At will—greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), charm monster (DC 23), minor image (DC 21; quickened 3 times per day), unholy blight (DC 23). Caster level 12th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. Summon Devil (Sp): Once per day an erinyes can attempt to summon 2d10 lemures or 1d4 bearded devils with a 50% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell. True Seeing (Su): Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). This effectively lets the Erinyes be immune to illusions with a visual component, and other deceptive magicks like Alter Self and Polymorph. Equipment (380 000 gp) Adamantine Longsword +2 of Wounding and Ghost Touch (55k) Ring of Protection +4 (32k) Ring of Blink (27k) Bracers of Armor +6 (36k) Cloak of Charisma +6 (36k) Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36k) Amulet of Health +6 (36k) Gloves of Dexterity +6 (36k) Hat of Disguise (2k) Boots of Speed (12k) Ioun Stone - White Pearl (21k) 2 Magic Quivers (4k) 10 x Oil of Darkness (3k) 40 silver + 40 adamantine + 40 cold iron arrows 337k spent. Add Rope and Bow for 367k. Tactics Starts combat with her Ioun stone in storage. Highest level of power: Oil of Darkness on self + Ring of Blink + Boots of Speed + melee with Ghost Touch weapon. Ranged combat is to spam Unholy Blight and/or use up arrows. If battle going badly, will escape, regenerate via the Ioun Stone and return for more. Generally uses flying Spring Attacks (with Ring of Blink) to test out the enemy. If she can't hit it, she tries SLAs. If she still can't affect it, she tries her Bow and relies on chance. Otherwise she simply leaves.
Balthanon 04-19-07, 07:22 PM	Well, then, let me propose a non-random equipment listing, more suited to her abilities and style. 337k spent. Add Rope and Bow for 367k. The rope trick the Erinyes has is an extraordinary ability-- no need to spend money on it. (The bow you can choose something else if you like as well. I would consider upping your AC a bit further with an item enhancing your natural armor bonus or picking up something that lets you treat an opponent as flat-footed or grants you invisibility (darkness is just concealment).) Also, the ghost touch on the weapon will not negate the mischance from blink, though I don't know if you were actually thinking that would or not. (Doesn't hit ethereal, it hits incorporeal.)
Argaud 04-19-07, 07:29 PM	Why 380,000 gold? ECL16 characters have 260k, if was that what you wanted to spend.
malignor 04-19-07, 07:38 PM	Why 380,000 gold? ECL16 characters have 260k, if was that what you wanted to spend.I have a different chart than you do, I think. Where do you get yours? *note to self - check DMG when I get home*
Argaud 04-19-07, 07:40 PM	I have a different chart than you do, I think. Where do you get yours? *note to self - check DMG when I get home* DMG page 135. Where are you looking?
Squirrelloid 04-19-07, 08:10 PM	Armor Class: 37 (+9 Dex, +8 natural, +6 armor, +4 deflection), touch 21, flat-footed 28 I'm supposed to be impressed by 37 AC at level 16? That's what? 3 more from before? Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+18 Attack: Longsword +20 melee (1d8+11+1Con/19-20; 1d8+15+1con if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +19 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +18 ranged (entangle) Full Attack: Longsword +20/+15 melee (1d8+11+1Con/19-20; 1d8+15+1Con if 2-handed) or +1 flaming composite longbow (+6 Str bonus) +19/+14 ranged (1d8+7/×3 plus 1d6 fire) or rope +18 ranged (entangle) Yes, 2 attacks per round at a really subpar to hit bonus. How exciting. A Full BAB classed character would be attacking at somewhere around +28 (16BAB + 8 stat + 4 enh) easily, and that's without trying hard. The damage is pretty unremarkable too. Basically, that character has no offenses worth talking about at 16th level. True Seeing (Su): Erinyes continuously use true seeing, as the spell (caster level 14th). This effectively lets the Erinyes be immune to illusions with a visual component, and other deceptive magicks like Alter Self and Polymorph. Um, you aren't 'immune' to polymorphed creatures, you can just see what their true form is. Their current polymorphed form can still hurt you just fine.
malignor 04-19-07, 09:58 PM	I'm supposed to be impressed by 37 AC at level 16? That's what? 3 more from before? Yes, 2 attacks per round at a really subpar to hit bonus. How exciting. A Full BAB classed character would be attacking at somewhere around +28 (16BAB + 8 stat + 4 enh) easily, and that's without trying hard. The damage is pretty unremarkable too. Basically, that character has no offenses worth talking about at 16th level. Um, you aren't 'immune' to polymorphed creatures, you can just see what their true form is. Their current polymorphed form can still hurt you just fine.All this big talk and no numbers with any backing. I'm willing to bet that even if you did come up with something that would make this oh so totally outclassed like you claim, you'd end up with such a focused combat machine that it's borderline useless outside it's niche. Odd, how you think I want to impress anyone. Another false assumption to throw on the mountain with the rest. All I'm showing is that the Erinyes is a valid contributor to a 16th level party. Here, let me say it again: I'm showing is that the Erinyes is a valid contributor to a 16th level party. Clear yet?
Jaxgaret 04-20-07, 03:59 AM	Just out of curiosity, how did the Planetar, Greater Stone Golen, Cornugon Devil, and Nightshade Nightwalker get together and form a party? I want background stories, people :)
runestar 04-20-07, 04:43 AM	The planetar and cornugon fell and their alignments both became LN. Not sure how you RP a construct with no int score. Dunno about the nightwalker...:embarrass
Balthanon 04-20-07, 06:57 AM	The planetar and cornugon fell and their alignments both became LN. Not sure how you RP a construct with no int score. Dunno about the nightwalker...:embarrass Obviously the Nightwalker was the one who arranged the falls of both the planetar and cornugon so that he could use them to take out his eternal archrival, the PC Erinyes. ;)
Squirrelloid 04-20-07, 08:48 AM	All this big talk and no numbers with any backing. I'm willing to bet that even if you did come up with something that would make this oh so totally outclassed like you claim, you'd end up with such a focused combat machine that it's borderline useless outside it's niche. Odd, how you think I want to impress anyone. Another false assumption to throw on the mountain with the rest. All I'm showing is that the Erinyes is a valid contributor to a 16th level party. Here, let me say it again: I'm showing is that the Erinyes is a valid contributor to a 16th level party. Clear yet? What are they validly contributing? No, I'm serious. A Ranger 16 (lets be serious, Ranger 11/PrC5) with TWF tree has BAB +16, started with a 16 Str + 4 levels +6 item = 26. Lets assume he has a +4 weapon (though it could easily be +5) for whatever reason. That's a +26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 full attack. And he still has a bundle of skill points to distribute, so he's not totally one-dimensional. Plus i haven't even chosen any of his 6 normal feats yet (with a possible 7th for being human). He also has spellcasting as at least an 11th level ranger, which is through 3rd level ranger spells - if he does stay in Ranger through 16th he has 4th level ranger spells. He is a melee threat with some useful utility casting. Similarly, a ranged ranger gets some amazing spells out of CV, more than double the attacks/round the erinyes gets, and the ability to use Improved Manyshot. And this isn't even an optimized Ranger for anything - that's just out of the box.
pippin_nl 04-20-07, 09:36 AM	The bottom line is Kreselak is 100% right. A CR N monster is supposed to be as good as a level N PC. Actually worse, because CR N = level N *NPC*, and PCs have 2x the wealth of NPCs. Outsider HD are not that good. 2 good saves, 8+int skill points but the skill list is pretty set in stone (whatever the monster entry has ranks in), and some minor abilities like Darkvision which *Dwarves*, *Half-Orcs*, and *Deep Halflings* get as LA +0 races. Its a d8 HD and 3/4 BAB. And having outsider HD, you've accepted that you're not going to be a primary spellcaster. As in ever. So you end up going rogue or fighter or barbarian (or maybe paladin or ranger) - except you've already got N HD of 3/4 BAB, so you'll never be a great meleer either. Note Real Ultimate Power (TM) comes from being a primary spellcaster, so the fact that you have +bajillion to stats might mean you don't feel small in the pants until 17th level. Penalizing them beyond that is just stupid. Just making them take monster HD has already gimped them. Why must you hate people who want to play monsters? Finally, some specifics: Flying is only game-altering pre-5th levelish, by when everyone can buy a flying mount or cast fly or similar. Most flying races are CR 5 or higher. Besides, it would be too bad if we made the orc barbarians carry longbows too, wouldn't it? Please. Fast Healing in the amounts generally available is meaningless. When a character expects to suck down 40hp/round (pretty typical in the 7th-8th level range for meleers), fast healing 2 is not a combat ability - its a between combats ability. Heck, fast healing 8 is not a combat ability. As a DM I've gotten annoyed with Troll regen/fast healing (why god why do some trolls have fast healing instead of regen?), because the single digit numbers of it they get is irrelevant for their CR. A CR 8 troll needs something on the order of Regen 20 to even be relevant in combat, and even that would be marginal. So fast healing on a PC is marginally better than wands of lesser vigor - and both of them are between combat abilities. Last adventure I had the PC's encounter a fast healing hydra (fast healing 15 and 55 hit points) inside a large magically darkened swampy cave, the creature had reach and scent so could attack (only a few of them could retalliate) and then draw back to heal. It was a difficult to defeat combination for a level 6 party (five members, one a fire sorcerer and one a greatsword wielding warblade).
Squirrelloid 04-20-07, 09:48 AM	Last adventure I had the PC's encounter a fast healing hydra (fast healing 15 and 55 hit points) inside a large magically darkened swampy cave, the creature had reach and scent so could attack (only a few of them could retalliate) and then draw back to heal. It was a difficult to defeat combination for a level 6 party (five members, one a fire sorcerer and one a greatsword wielding warblade). Hey, Hydra, one of the few monsters with fast healing worth caring about! You did remember that it takes an action to locate creatures with the scent ability? And the hydra still takes the penalty for concealment on its attacks (20% miss chance!). (Admittedly, it gets to use all its heads as an attack action, which means that AoO is pretty harsh). You realize darkness only gives 20% concealment in 3.5 - so everyone can see the hydra just fine, they just have to roll miss chance. If no one can see farther than 5', the hydra doesn't actually threaten out to 15', because you have to be able to see to threaten. (Scent doesn't help because it takes an action to pinpoint). Assuming Darkness as 3.5, the party casters are definitely to blame. They should have either (1) cast a light spell to dispel the darkness (getting rid of the miss chance so they could hose the hydra at range), or (2) cast obscuring mist so the hydra can't threaten more than 5' to allow the meleers to close in. Probably 1, since meleeing a hydra is generally a bad idea. Note Hydras are slow, and therefore easy to pick off at range.
sigma999 04-21-07, 03:23 AM	What are they validly contributing? No, I'm serious. Dunno. But Slaads are contributing frog the door open blue blue galoshes heap fluffy appendix washdown debit noisy can't interestingly flop painstaking my googlish dagnabbit :pbbbtt:
Squirrelloid 04-21-07, 11:53 AM	Dunno. But Slaads are contributing frog the door open blue blue galoshes heap fluffy appendix washdown debit noisy can't interestingly flop painstaking my googlish dagnabbit :pbbbtt: mmmm... fluffy appendix... wait. You forgot the grapefruit.
AllisterH 04-21-07, 12:44 PM	I already explained this here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12124464&postcount=54). The basic gist of it is that you can find an NPCs stat mods by subtracting elite array, and those are balanced with class levels. An NPC of CR N is as much of a challenge as a monster of CR N, so 'balanced' stat mods should be calculable in exactly the same way. This has nothing to do with what the rules say about calculating stat mods, and everything to do with what would be *balanced* stat mods according to the rules. Sorry for not responding sooner. Er, but the NPC also follows the wealth guidelines while none of the creatures in the MM to my understanding use that....so how can you say "NPCs use the elite array, obviously, the monsters use it as well". I mean the NPC of CR N is so highly dependent on the feats/classes/multiclassing that pretty much every DM I know basically ignores it and eyeballs it. So why use that flawed system as the basis for the stat modifications?
malignor 04-21-07, 02:19 PM	What are they validly contributing? No, I'm serious.I highly doubt you honestly believe your stance here. Definitely devil's advocate.A Ranger 16 (lets be serious, Ranger 11/PrC5) with TWF tree has BAB +16, started with a 16 Str + 4 levels +6 item = 26. Lets assume he has a +4 weapon (though it could easily be +5) for whatever reason. That's a +26/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11 full attack. And he still has a bundle of skill points to distribute, so he's not totally one-dimensional. Plus i haven't even chosen any of his 6 normal feats yet (with a possible 7th for being human). He also has spellcasting as at least an 11th level ranger, which is through 3rd level ranger spells - if he does stay in Ranger through 16th he has 4th level ranger spells. He is a melee threat with some useful utility casting. Similarly, a ranged ranger gets some amazing spells out of CV, more than double the attacks/round the erinyes gets, and the ability to use Improved Manyshot. And this isn't even an optimized Ranger for anything - that's just out of the box.If a 28 point build is assumed (as is with the Erinyes provided), that leaves only 18 points among 5 ability scores, so something has to suffer. Wisdom should be 14 to allow for all the spells (unless you wanna be dependent on an item - insert Dispel Magic fun here). That laves 12 among 4 stats. So we have a ranger who has all this offense ability but bad hitpoints and average skills, no resistances to speak of, less mobility, low AC and a low Will save. Good job.