Post/Author/DateTime	Post
farrenj 05-22-07, 04:44 AM	These are without class levels. Ogre: CR 3 - ECL 6 Doppleganger: CR 3 - ECL 8 Mindflayer: CR 8 - ECL 15 Satyr CR 2(4 with pipes) - ECL 7 And there are many more. Why is there such a difference between CR and ECL? I can tolerate some difference as I acknowledge that many races have significant non combat abilities that are not factored into CR, but I fail to see how something's effective character level can be twice it's CR taking into consideration that a core race with straight class lvls has a CR equal to it's ECL. What do you guys think? Is the system flawed and are there any suggested fixes if it is flawed. P.S. I wish the search function worked on the forums. I'm sure that has come up before.
Naderion 05-22-07, 05:09 AM	The ogre has 4 racial HD and a BAB of +3 and +10 Strength and is large, wich leads to +7 on attack. This is equal to a level 7 fighter. He also deals +5 damage compared to any fighter or +7 when using two-handed weapons. It has +4 base Fortitude and +4 constitution, resulting in +6 Fortitude, which is equal to a level 8 fighter. It has 4d8 base hp and +4 constitution, resulting in 29 hp, which is equal to a level 6 fighter with constitution 10. It has natural armor +5 and -2 dexterity and is large, which rsults in always having +3 AC. It does not have the four bonus feats of a 6th level fighter, but I think the ogre is one of the few creatures, where the ECL is perfect. The doppelganger has +1 on attack, +1 on damage, +1 on AC, +1 hp per level, +1 reflex, +1 fortitude, +2 Will, +1 on all skills, +2 on many skills, +10 on bluff and disguise, +4 natural armor, +1 on DC for all spells, gains bonus spells for all classes, and can see in the dark. LA +4 seems a bit high, but I wouldn't go below -3 here, I think. For mind flayers it's even more extreme. +1 on attack, +1 on damage, +2 on AC, +1 hp per level, +2 reflex, +1 fortitude, +3 Will, +3 on all skills, +4 on many skills, 4 additional skill points each level, +3 natural armor, +3 or +4 on DC for all spells, gains bonus spells for all classes, can see in the dark, has spell resistance of 17 + HD (which is extremly high), can charm monster at will, can plane shift at will and can stun most simple minded creatures at will. This is really a lot, but I think whoever made the level adjustment +7 didn't thought about that one would start with the class abilities of level 1 at level 16, which at that point, are completely useless. One would have to calculate some examples, but I think the 8 racial HD are all level adjustment these things need and they still would suck as spellcasting PCs. And why: I think because more often than not, the designers didn't really consider that racial abilities are about meaningless to spellcasters compared to their spells gained by class levels. It usually works very fine with simple brutes who will always be barbarians or fighters.
Frostflame 05-22-07, 05:21 AM	Because the ECL also takes into account : elite ability scores , gear , and better feat selection than the MM version. Dont forget , your character also gets gear apropriate for a character of the level = to his ECL Let's take the ogre as an example. Let's take a 6th level half -orc barbarian as the comparison : both stat arrangements are elite array Str 15 dex 13 con 14 int 10 wis 12 cha 8 H-orc----------------- Ogre Str 18:+4 25:+7 Dex:13:+1 11:+0 Con:14:+2 18 :+4 Int :8 :-1 6 :-2 Wis :12 :+1 12 :+1 Cha :6 :-2 4 :-3 BaB :+6/+1 +3 Grapple :+10 +14 HP :6d12+12(57) 4d8+16 (37) Ac :11 (+1 dex) 14 (-1 size +5 NA) Melee attack Greatsword :+10 dam(2d6+6) +9 dam(3d6+10) 21 avg Reach : 5ft 10ft Base speed:40ft 40ft Saves:+8/+3/+3 +8/+1/+2 Feats:3 2 Skill points:27 4 Class ailties : rage none Stats while raging AC:9 Melee: +12 Dam 2d6+9 Raging and power attack for 3 Melee 2d6+15 (22avg) <=> 21 avg So these 2 are prette comparable Better BAB , or higher damage Skills and feats or reach and AC
farrenj 05-22-07, 05:27 AM	I admit Ogre is one of those cases where ECL is pretty damn close, at lower levels. As levels progress the ogre's stat bonuses become less impressive and missing out on 3 class levels becomes more and more off a hinderance. Besides, if an Ogre's ECL is 6 and that's perfect, why isn't it's CR 6, considering it's a combat creature? What the actual numbers about an ogre say is that a 6th lvl fighter will stomp it's ass into the ground, based on CR, but it should be on par with a 6th lvl fighter in a party based on ECL. .... That doesn't make sense. A CR 3 ogre vs a CR 6 fighter. But focusing on the ogre isn't getting to the root of the issue. Why such a difference in CR and ECL?
runestar 05-22-07, 05:32 AM	Read the FAQ - it covers this. Basically, the gist is that cr and ECL are 2 completely different criteria which have nothing in common whatsoever. They each calculate separate things (cr measures how tough a monster is against a 4-member party, ECL measures how useful it will be in a party). As such, they should never be mistaken for each other, much less used interchangeably. This, among other things, means that certain abilities will be worth more to a PC in a party, than to an NPC squaring off against a standard party - hence, more weight is given to them, resulting in higher ECLs. That there are times when cr = ECL is merely a coincidence. It is not indicative of any necessary connection between the 2. :) I admit that the list provided is a little rough, in that the examples given are those which I too feel have somewhat inaccurate ECLs (though there are certainly many which perfectly playable ECLs).
Naderion 05-22-07, 05:40 AM	A PC fights many fights, an NPC usually just one. :D For a monster, +1 to attack and +1d8 hp is just like one simple Aid spell. For a PC, it's like a permanent undisepelable Aid spell, that even stacks with the actual spell.
Jarrad 05-22-07, 07:19 AM	The ogre has 4 racial HD and a BAB of +3 and +10 Strength and is large, wich leads to +7 on attack. This is equal to a level 7 fighter. It absolutely jolly well is not! +7 to attack with a +3 BAB is neither equal nor equivalent to a +7 BAB, not by a country mile. +7 BAB not only gives you TWO attacks for your money, but lets you qualify for feats the Ogre is levels away from getting. Even discounting the extra attack, it's only +7 compared to a level 7 Fighter with no feats, or as we call them in my campaign, "fallen Paladins who haven't become Blackguards yet". By level 7, a Fighter has had SEVEN feats (eight if human) compared to the Ogre's two. That's five (or six) more feats, which can add up to a significant to-hit boost, more attacks (two-weapon fighting) and/or generally more combat options. It's an apples-and-oranges comparison because there are a lot more variables to consider than just base statistics. It does not have the four bonus feats of a 6th level fighter, but I think the ogre is one of the few creatures, where the ECL is perfect. Nor does it have the 6th-level "standard" feat of a 6th-level fighter. It will continue to lag behind the rest of the party by one feat, three Hit Dice and three points of BAB and therefore spend a lot of its career with one less attack than any character with a good BAB progression. In the majority of campaigns, people are out to qualify for prestige classes, improve skills etc., and the fact that those three "virtual" levels don't confer feats and skills is a big drawback, particularly later on. Another thing some posters seem to be failing to consider is that many magical and supernatural effects are Hit Dice-based, and creatures with the lowest Hit Dice are often affected first. Those three levels of lower Hit Dice are going to REALLY hurt, all the way through the character's career. Your ogre who is supposedly equivalent to a 6th-level fighter in terms of character usefulness in a party is going down to spells that the other guys aren't even vulnerable to, or is going to be affected in preference to the others. In early levels, not being "humanoid" is nice because you're not vulnerable to such old favourites as Charm/Hold Person. Later on, it's no help at all as most spells at higher levels come to affect pretty much everything. The stats advantages are significant for a few levels, but they basically disappear as the party progresses because they don't scale compared to everything else that goes on with character development. An extra +5 to damage is pretty d*mn cool at low levels - and really not a bad thing at high levels - but it's not the same benefit when the party is doing 20+ or even 30+ points of damage per blow as it is when they're only doing 5-10. There are also hard-to-quantify in-game adjustments that can make life a headache. If there are a limited number of buffs going - whether from items or from spells - the creature with the "monster" statistics (if you'll pardon the pun) is going to get them last, unless they're the only character appropriate for them. I've witnessed the phenomenon several times, whereby a PC who has chosen a non-standard race and copped the ECL penalty goes on to get railroaded by the rest of the party in terms of items and treasure, although I admit it's not a great point for debate as that sort of thing really ought to get fixed by the DM. Basically, I agree with the OP in the main. ECL is cobblers, and really doesn't - in many cases - reflect the real advantage that the character gains from playing a non-standard race. More often than not, they're a realistic reflection of the advantage a character gains at low levels, but fall to pieces at high levels. Further splatbooks have made the imbalance even more gross by introducing ways that characters with no ECL can pick up cool abilities - from prestige classes or feats - that more than make up the difference in abilities, level for level. Note that I don't have any problem with all the shiny new toys, I'm just supporting the OP in saying that ECL is often badly wrong. Even the Ogre example isn't as straightforward as has been suggested, and that's one of the less badly broken adjustments out there. I agree - mostly - with this statement though: And why: I think because more often than not, the designers didn't really consider that racial abilities are about meaningless to spellcasters compared to their spells gained by class levels. It usually works very fine with simple brutes who will always be barbarians or fighters. Doppelgangers are a great case in point. Their abilities are nice, yes, but there's no way in Hades they amount to four character levels the creature's base HD! As it happens, there's a doppelganger PC in one of the campaigns I've been running for the last few years. I set the level adjustment at +2 (for a total ECL of 6) and it has balanced out nicely. Spellcasting characters, as you suggest, really can't afford to take a race with a significant ECL; you simply can't cut the mustard in terms of the spells you bring to the table if you're six levels behind the rest of the party, particularly as so many effects are dependent upon caster level. As a DM, I take a flexible approach to ECL and over the years I've come up with several solutions for fixing the imbalances in-game, most of which seem to work seamlessly. *** PS: Frostflame, you fail to take into account the fact that the Barbarian has an extra attack and thus your comparison isn't valid. The Barbarian would slaughter the Ogre, on average, in two rounds. With the statistics you list, Raging but not Power Attacking, the following occurs: The Ogre gets one attack per round against the raging Barbarian with a 95% chance to hit, at 19.95 (21*0.95) average damage, discounting criticals. The raging Barbarian gets two attacks against the Ogre with a 95% chance to hit on the first attack and 70% chance to hit on the second. That's 26.4 (0.95*16 + 0.70*16) points of damage per round, or if you do the rounding, 6 more points of damage than the Ogre on average. Now bear in mind that the Barbarian has TWENTY more hit points than the Ogre before raging. If you take criticals into account, the difference increases to 30.16 points of damage taken by the Ogre compared to 22.15 taken by the Barbarian. Are we having fun yet? Now, what about that feat that the Barbarian has and the Ogre doesn't. Let's say they both have Power Attack and Cleave - good, solid choices - but the Barbarian has Weapon Focus (greatsword) in addition. If he takes that extra point of attack bonus and turns it into damage via Power Attack, 31.215 points of damage (counting criticals) that the Barbarian does to the Ogre in a round, compared to the 22.15 points he takes in return. Comparable? No, absolutely not. With its listed CR of 3, a lone Ogre ought to be a reasonable challenge for a lone 6th-level Barbarian, and it is. Saying it's in some way equivalent to the same character... nope, sorry! Peace, dudes :cool: :thumbsup:
Kresalak 05-22-07, 07:28 AM	ECLs are perfect for what they intended for; that being to screw people who want to play monsters in the butt. Hard.
runestar 05-22-07, 07:37 AM	Actually, I am inclined to say that LA tends to fall a little short at lower lvs, but the drawback is less debilitating at higher lvs. As such, you might be expected to suffer temporarily in the short term to benefit in the long run. Lets take the sample ogre for example. At lower lvs, yes, I do not deny that from a statistical POV, I would be better off playing a run of the mill fighter or barbarian instead. I get more HD (which translates to better hp, even with the ogre's racial con bonus). Being large and enjoying reach can be replicated with the wizard casting enlarge person on you. Conversely, the ogre's NA bonus just barely offsets its racial dex penalty, the size modifier for being large, and its inability to wear heavy armour. Its 4 giant HD does not really give it a lot of hp. It has poorer saves. However, this shortfall slowly gets compensated for at higher lvs, as the ogre accumulates more class lvs. Slowly but surely, the hp lost from it having 2 fewer HD is made up for by its racial con bonus. It may get fewer attacks (due to a lower bab), but its +10 str bonus means that it is dealing more damage on each hit, and its overall to-hit rating is not necessarily inferior to that of a fighter of the same lv. When it finally takes a lv of fighter and is able to use heavy armour, the benefits of its NA comes into full play. Yes, an ogre would be weaker than say, an orc barb6 or fighter6 or some multiclass combination thereof. But what of at higher lvs? Compare say, an ogre6/barb1/fighter4 to a fighter11 or barb11. The disparity is suddenly not so apparent now, is it? Or an ogre6/barb2/fighter12 to a fighter20 build. I would not hesitate to go for the former combination.:P
Evicmar 05-22-07, 08:48 AM	I'm surprised that no one mentioned the class features that the racial level deny you from taking. Let's take a look at the barbarian half orc and the ogre once more. A 6th level barbarian has trap sense, rage, and uncanny dodge to boot. He also is one level away from DR 1/-. The Ogre has ......... nothing. The ECL has never taken into account the level adjustment of classes abilities as compared to stats and armor bonuses. This is the major flaw in the 3.5 MM and savage species. After asigning a level bump each for uncanny dodge and rage the half-orc is now ecl8 vs the ecl6 ogre. The ogre should be a 1 level bump to balance out to a normal character.
Jarrad 05-22-07, 10:01 AM	Yes, an ogre would be weaker than say, an orc barb6 or fighter6 or some multiclass combination thereof. But what of at higher lvs? Compare say, an ogre6/barb1/fighter4 to a fighter11 or barb11. The disparity is suddenly not so apparent now, is it? Or an ogre6/barb2/fighter12 to a fighter20 build. I would not hesitate to go for the former combination.:P I would. The former build is good, and will have 7 feats from levels and 7 from Fighter. It will have probably have two decent maxed-out feat trees and a couple of other combat options. The Fighter build will have 7 feats from levels (8 if human, which is the comparison we're doing as the previous builds haven't mentioned non-ECL races' stat adjustments) and 11 from Fighter; 4 more than the Ogre. The Fighter also has +3 BAB over the Ogre (and the Ogre doesn't qualify for at least one great feat from PHB2 due to the +18 BAB requirement), can wear heavy armour, has one more ability score adjustment, 3 more Hit Dice (although about 21 fewer hp, assuming the extra ability adjustment hasn't made up some difference) and a bucketload more skill points than the Ogre. Those extra feats also buy more combat options (feinting is never going to be a good option for the Ogre), along with skill tricks that the Ogre can't afford to acquire. Their AC's will almost have evened out, the Fighter is going to hit 15% more often and is going to be useful in even more situations... Certainly, in a one-on-one melee situation, fortune favours the Ogre; unless, of course, the Fighter character has used the extra feats to optimise his ability to fight large creatures. (That's leaving aside the role-playing aspects of having an Ogre character. There certainly are advantages to being Large, but big drawbacks too; from equipment, dungeoneering and NPC interaction perspectives. However, this doesn't influence the ECL argument, as many classes are hard to play.) There's another argument in all this, which is that your Ogre has multi-classed so why can't the Fighter? If he takes a one-level barbarian dip early on he could pick up a level of Frenzied Berserker later for the one-per-day frenzy - he's got the spare feats, after all - and will chop the Ogre to mincemeat. Once you start multi-classing, there are too many imponderables to go into but for my money I'd rather have the Fighter 20 *as a Player Character*. Unless I had a theme in mind and really wanted to play the character, I'd find the Ogre's lack of skills, lower Hit Dice (see point about spell effects), lower BAB, fewer feats, logistical awkwardness and penalty to Charisma-based activities too much of a handicap. For a one-shot NPC to trouble the party's melee combatants however, I'd take the Ogre any day ;) Bear in mind that we're not really talking about what comes off best in a one-on-one encounter between two optimised builds, we're discussing whether the ECLs as written are appropriate for player characters and in many cases I'd say they really are quite outlandishly unfair. Anyway, as discussed, the Ogre is a far less troublesome case than many other level-adjusted races. In the main I agree with you that the +2 adjustment over Hit Dice isn't dreadful and won't make a big difference in the long run to a character prepared to take the rough with the smooth... but +4 for a Doppelganger? Puh-lease! For my money, the majority of creatures have a power level consistent with their Hit Dice and ought not to have additional numbers slapped on, or at least no more than +1 or +2 for genuinely useful abilities. The "brutes", as others have pointed out, are indeed mostly fair. Many other potentially-playable races are badly nerfed by the ECL. Thus, my inclination as a DM is to examine each on its merits. My incination as a *player* would be to whine loudly until my DM gave in ;)
runestar 05-22-07, 10:04 AM	I'm surprised that no one mentioned the class features that the racial level deny you from taking. Yes, but barring full caster classes, melee class features tend to be quite interchangeable with monster special abilities. Barb is notorious for being useful mainly as a 1-dip (for the rage), and fighter quickly looses its luster after 2 lvs anyways. The only possible drawback I can see is that such aggressive multiclassing might screw around with your will save. For example, a barb's job is simply to whack the foes hard and whack them good. If you are interested in acquiring dr and trap sense, then by all means play a LA+0 race and go pure barb. But if you are willing to forgo them for the benefits of playing a power monstrous race like the ogre or centaur (which come with phenomenal physical stat bonuses whose impact on combat is all too apparent for all to see).... Their role might be quite narrowly focused (since the nature of their bonuses tends to pigeon-hole them into a specific style of play), but they clearly excel at the roles expected of them. For example, a centaur is able to take spirited charge without meeting its prereqs and use it fully (as per races of faerun). Give him a lance and the standard power attack/leap attack/shock trooper combo, and core classes are clearly hard-pressed to match his damage output. Naturally, there must be an opportunity cost. The question is simply what you are willing to forgo, since you clearly cannot have your cake and eat it too. You gain some, just as you lose some.:)
runestar 05-22-07, 10:13 AM	Bear in mind that we're not really talking about what comes off best in a one-on-one encounter between two optimised builds, we're discussing whether the ECLs as written are appropriate for player characters and in many cases I'd say they really are quite outlandishly unfair. I had never planned to do so. My goal was to simply compare the 2 side by side and see how well they might fare compared to each other. The ogre is clearly going to be filling a melee bruiser role. Naturally, the objective is to see how well it can fulfill this role compared to normal classes. When you say many cases, how many are you referring to. I had a thread some time back compiling a list of monsters which we felt made excellent PC choices for their ECLs, and the list was surprisingly fairly long.
BW0222 05-22-07, 10:42 AM	farrenj, Why is ECL so off? These are without class levels. Ogre: CR 3 - ECL 6 Doppleganger: CR 3 - ECL 8 Mindflayer: CR 8 - ECL 15 Satyr CR 2(4 with pipes) - ECL 7 First, monsters were never intended to be PC races. Standard PC classes and races have been pretty thoroughly play tested and it is fairly easy to say that an elf, human, and dwarf are pretty much equal. When you look at small LA races (+1 or so), then it isn't that difficult to extend that. However, creatures with base HD and high LA is a lot of guess work. WotC certainly didn't play test ogres, dopplegangers, etc. in the same way as elves, halflings, and gnomes. Second, it is well known that high LA has never been appropriate for PC classes. WotC even warns about this in the DMG. In encounters, they tend to either always win or always loose -- with little hope. A pixie rogue could go invisible, fly around, and defeat 75% of APL 5 or 6 encounters no problem -- they'll never be able to see or reach her. In the other 25% of encounters she'll die the first few rounds with no hope of survival. Third, such abilities are subjective in non-combat encounters. How badly could an ogre, doppleganger, mindflayer, etc. affect encounters? Well that depends upon a ton of factors. Honestly, I could see a smart player absolutely totalling encounter after encounter with the doppleganger. Against humaniods, scouting/spying/sabatage, etc. she could be absolutely deadly, if played intelligently. However, this really depends. If you have a city based campaign -- she dominates. In an undead dungeon crawl, she likely stays bored for session after session. Forth, like many classes/races, high LA has to be considered over the lifetime of the character. An ogre in a 6th-level party is certainly weak against many 6th-level characters. Fighter will certainly have more hit point, BAB, multiple attacks, feats, etc. However, look at both at say 10th-level, ogre now has four levels of fighter. Just like wizards are weak at 1st and begin dominating at 10th, monster races tend to even out at higher levels. Are the ECL of monster races off? No. IMO, everyone looks at the high LA races, picks a common encounter in their minds and says "I can't play that, I'd get killed." However, that's the point. High LA trades certain defeat in some encounters for certain success in others. What do you guys think? Is the system flawed and are there any suggested fixes if it is flawed. As WotC suggests... don't play high LA races. They lead to unbalanced encounters where the high LA race either always wins or always loose. Neither are terribly exciting. i.e. Watching the doppleganger PC go through city encounter after city encounter -- scouting camps, poisoning folks in their sleep, etc. for session after session. They going into an undead dungeon crawl and watching the doppleganger do nothing for session after session. Watching a pixie PC spy on the bad guys, follow them to their camp, and then single handedly shoot them all to death -- with no hope of seeing or reaching her. Then going into a dungeon crawl against a group of worgs and watching the pixie PC stay at the back because she can't fly out of reach or scent detection distance. etc., etc.
runestar 05-22-07, 10:44 PM	I dunno - there are a few high ECL races which look like they might be quite fun to play, if you are willing to go the extra mile and live with their drawbacks. A personal favourite of mine is the ghaele, which seems like a rather strong contender, despite having a LA of +10 (for a final ECL of 20). The SS progression seems okay. Astral deva does not look half bad either. :)
Flintlockhandmedown 05-22-07, 11:02 PM	http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/6928/proofofbrokenleveladjusnx1.jpg I can't offer any suggestions, but this is total proof that the level adjustment system is broken.
cato 05-23-07, 01:16 AM	Another example is Naztherune Rakshasa, +5 ecl for: 4 feats +11 racial HD, insane + on all stats, spell resistance 21 +spell level hide in plain sight, damagre reduction/piercing omg..
runestar 05-23-07, 01:33 AM	I can't offer any suggestions, but this is total proof that the level adjustment system is broken. How so? The athach is ECL19, the Azer is ECL6. Compare the former with an azer with 13 class lv. The athach has better physical stats, the azer fighter will have more special abilities. So one is not really any more advantaged than the other... Another example is Naztherune Rakshasa, +5 ecl for: 4 feats +11 racial HD, insane + on all stats, spell resistance 21 +spell level hide in plain sight, damagre reduction/piercing omg.. I am kinda worried now...just how many people are aware that ECL = HD + LA...:confused:
cato 05-23-07, 02:06 AM	I am kinda worried now...just how many people are aware that ECL = HD + LA...:confused: Ah sorry my bad, I just noticed it says LA, and not ECL, its kinda weird since when you have the : Players as xxx creature sections you usually get the Pure ECL at the end. :p
Kresalak 05-23-07, 07:57 AM	Yes, but barring full caster classes, melee class features tend to be quite interchangeable with monster special abilities. Barb is notorious for being useful mainly as a 1-dip (for the rage), and fighter quickly looses its luster after 2 lvs anyways. The only possible drawback I can see is that such aggressive multiclassing might screw around with your will save. The fact that none of the class abilities available to a monster are any good is not a point in favor of the monster. You can grab +1 attack/+1 damage as many times as you want, but that will never compete with casting Polymorph Any Object. And both the atach and azer are total ass. An atach is "playable" at level 19, at which point you're expected to be able to kill a limitless number of atachs and not get any xp. Furthermore, you're playing a 14 HD character with +10 BAB at a point where people have been able to permanently turn into you for 4 levels, and they don't even do it because there are better options available. I don't even know what an azer is supposed to do, but 2 HD and +2 Str/+2 Dex/+2 Con/+2 Int/+2 Wis/-2 Cha and +6 NA for 4 levels of nothing? I mean ****, that gives you numbers that compare unfavorably to those of a 4th level Fighter, and you're supposed to be equal to a 6th level one? Level adjustments are like going to school for 10 years to become a fry-cook, while your friends go for 5 years to become lawyers.
runestar 05-23-07, 08:05 AM	The fact that none of the class abilities available to a monster are any good is not a point in favor of the monster. You can grab +1 attack/+1 damage as many times as you want, but that will never compete with casting Polymorph Any Object. I am not sure how valid the "yeah, but I could just replicate those special abilities using polymorph" really is. Your stats are actually weaker than that of a monster PC, you might not get access to all its special abilities, and PAO can be dispelled. Are you saying that there is not a single powerful monster worth playing for its ECL at all? Perhaps the examples given so far are not the best examples, but that does not necessarily mean that they are representative of LA as a whole.:confused:
Kresalak 05-23-07, 08:10 AM	Your stats are lower by anywhere from -2 to +8, which means the most you could lose is a +4 bonus on something. Even two levels in a real class will give you more than that. PaO is an example of why paying all those levels for some crappy ability score bonuses isn't a good idea, because people already have access to all of them and they don't even bother getting them.
Braekor Dragonfang 05-23-07, 02:59 PM	As WotC suggests... don't play high LA races. :rofl: funny, the game is about freedom of choice and making your own game, yet they suggest not doing things when they provide the means to do so :looloo: go figure how that's supposed to work :D :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint: :pint:
farrenj 05-23-07, 05:16 PM	I see the general consensus is that the ECL of monsters is generally off. Any suggestions on how to fix it other than just take each one case by case? I perfectly accept that analyzing each one case by case is the only reasonable answer, but I guess I hope for something else.
Vaalingrade Ashland 05-23-07, 05:23 PM	ECL is there to discourage playing monsters. A good rule of thumb is to always subtract three from the LA of any monster with more than 5HD and subtract 1 from anything with less than 5HD. Minimum +1 LA.
Wiz_Eldrick 05-23-07, 05:34 PM	Unearthed Arcana has a system that allows you to "wash out" LA as you go up in levels. Can't remember for the life of me how that worked, but obviously, Wizards recognizes there are "weaknesses" in the system. This is counter to some folks who think what you get for the LA helps more in higher levels, although I tend to disagree with that anyway. A good deal of those abilities you get for LA are much more important right when you get them. If I could fireball at will (for example, don't know if there is a "playable" race that does this) it would probably seem great for awhile. Eventually, between high-level challenges typically involving creatures having SR and resistances, the ability would get washed out. Yep, I could burn towns to the ground with ease, but my foes are laughing at me when I try to turn the fire on them.
Kresalak 05-23-07, 09:05 PM	I see the general consensus is that the ECL of monsters is generally off. Any suggestions on how to fix it other than just take each one case by case? I perfectly accept that analyzing each one case by case is the only reasonable answer, but I guess I hope for something else. Take the CR of the monster. Add one. Readjust it's HD so that they match it's CR+1; a Fire Giant, for example, would have 11 levels of d12 HD and full BAB with good Fort saves, like a Barbarian whose class features were replaced by "is really big and strong."
Argaud 05-23-07, 11:09 PM	Your stats are lower by anywhere from -2 to +8, which means the most you could lose is a +4 bonus on something. Even two levels in a real class will give you more than that. PaO is an example of why paying all those levels for some crappy ability score bonuses isn't a good idea, because people already have access to all of them and they don't even bother getting them. The problem is the Polymorph spells, not the ECL. Polymorph is completely broken, and thanks to PAO it gives all high-level adventurers the abilities of very powerful monsters pretty much forever. This creates the illusion that ECL is invalid, since the creature high abilities are easily duplicated. To be true the ECL of a creature is incorrect we need to test the critter against monsters of the equivalent CR. Check out if an Athach with one class level and the normal gear of a level 20 adventurer can pull his weight in a battle against a CR20 monster or some other level 20 encounter. If he cannot, then the LA is badly calculated and needs to be lowered. Remember that to check the ECL you need to give the creature at least one PC level. Testing it as it is won't work.
Flintlockhandmedown 05-24-07, 01:36 PM	How so? The athach is ECL19, the Azer is ECL6. Compare the former with an azer with 13 class lv. The athach has better physical stats, the azer fighter will have more special abilities. So one is not really any more advantaged than the other... I am kinda worried now...just how many people are aware that ECL = HD + LA...:confused: Ohhhh right. I knew that awhile ago when monster characters ruined my campaign but I forgot about it. But still, Azer is pretty worthless, who would want to play a 7th level (6 ECL + 1 Fighter) character with around 18 hp and +3 BAB whose focus is melee? That's a pretty terrible character.
Flintlockhandmedown 05-24-07, 01:45 PM	The problem is the Polymorph spells, not the ECL. Polymorph is completely broken, and thanks to PAO it gives all high-level adventurers the abilities of very powerful monsters pretty much forever. This creates the illusion that ECL is invalid, since the creature high abilities are easily duplicated. Have you guys read the polymorph fix from the OOTS guy? They're pretty impressive. He does articles for Dragon and stuff so it's not like he's some random guy. http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html
Matthew77 05-24-07, 02:03 PM	As a DM, I'm actually glad the Level adjustment system results in weak characters. It allows me to say "yes" when someone asks to play a monstrous race, and be confident they won't completely overpower my other players. Especially when gaming with relative strangers, at a game store or convention. I think WoTC (wisely) chose to highly overvalue potential problematic abilities, like the greater invisiblity of the Pixie or anything that gives at-will abilities or immunities. Its always easier for me as a DM to look at a completed character sheet and say "that seems less powerful than the rest of the party, go ahead and reduce your LA by 1 or 2", than it would be to say "woah, you found a loophole there, I need to add 1 or 2 to your LA to balance you with the rest of the party."