Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tetsubo 08-19-07, 04:19 PM	One thing I've never understood about Elves. They are suppose to have a low birth rate, possibly the lowest amongst the humanoid races. Yet there are a dozen plus sub-races of Elves... why? Shouldn't a race with a high birth rate have a lot of sub-races and the Elves be uber-stable as a species?
Holy_Beholder 08-19-07, 04:29 PM	The birth rate is low enough you can call each individual elf a subrace, and it works. For instance, lets say there are 3 elves. One of them rolls a 15, 6, 13, 9, 11, and 8. With racial modifiers this becomes 15, 8, 11, 9, 11, and 8. So this elf is obviously of a subrace with no con penalty. Especially if he was born with funny looking ears. The second elf rolls a 9, 13, 8, 14, 15, and 13. Modifiers would make this 9, 15, 6, 14, 15, and 13. So clearly this elf is of a subrace that has a -4 penalty to constitution, but also gets +2 to wisdom and intelligence. If this elf had a different eye color, or funny looking ears, or any other mundane detail, that just proves it. The third elf rolls a 12 18 12 17 7 and 5. Racial modifiers bring this to 12, 20, 10, 7, 17, and 5. So this elf has to be of a subrace with a +6 bonus to dexterity and a +2 to wisdom. Lets call it a githzerai if it is born with yellow skin, otherwise, time for another subrace. Which is getting a -4 to charisma and a -2 to intelligence to balance it. Somewhat. If you tried this with any other race that bred faster, there would be too many subraces. Also, the other races are less elitist, so minor differences wouldn't be called a subrace. Thats just one explanation, but it works.
Tetsubo 08-19-07, 04:34 PM	A "race" needs a breeding population. A population of *one* does not a breeding population make... The lower the birth rate, the lower the genetic "drift" from generation to generation. So a race with a low birth rate would be more genetically stable than one with a high birth rate... Kobolds and goblins should have bunches of sub-races. Elves should have few or none. How many human sub-races are there within the core rules?
Derren S. 08-19-07, 04:36 PM	Because they sell. There are a lot of elf fanboys out there who think that elves are the best and buy everything with "elf" in it. And to make them happy (and to get their money) WotC invented more and more elves, one subrace for every class so that those fanboys have for every class a elf with an optimal ability bonus.
Hebitsuikaza 08-19-07, 04:52 PM	There are lots of elven subraces because of two reasons. 1) The people who find the concept of elf alluring and kinky, who get off on a race of 100+ year old sexy girls, also want their particular character to be the unquestioned, overpowered best at whatever class they want to play. 2) The same people think that elves would be better if their skin was slightly different colored or they had a slightly different culture. In this case they decide to give the new elf ethnicity its own bonuses and penalties even though this wouldn't be a good enough excuse to write up a totally new stat block for a marginally different looking or acting member of any other race. Really, if people had been playing orcs and goblins instead of elves and dwarves in D&D for the last 27 years, then there would likely be lots of different subraces for orcs and goblins since players would care enough about how the often fairly large changes in the race across or even within worlds impacted character creation. However, elf fans don't really fully agree on what an elf should be and instead of simply saying that all elves have the same stats, but their home region determines look and personality, they decide that every slightly different view of elves deserves its own class-custom subrace. Its one of the biggest BS things about D&D, it is entirely counter intuitive no matter how you turn it. Elves do have low birthrates and live so long and breed so infrequently that by nearly all accounts they wouldn't be doing so randomly enough to produce lots of mutations. Of course, they shouldn't be doing so randomly enough to produce the millions and millions of half-elves that appear everywhere either. Most of the elf fandom spins from Forgotten Realms which often seems should be properly labeled Drizzt and Elminister in the Elf Realms. However, once Forgotten Realms and their elf-obsessed designers created all these random elf subtypes, GreyHawk felt it had to absorb and adapt them all in order to keep fans happy... The irony here is that one of the things that was originally cool about Forgotten Realms was that it was the world where dinosaurs and dinosaur people existed. However, this has been buried and forgotten, becoming hardly even a subnote for the world. Of course, it ends up making a whole different group of fans quite unhappy and quite bitter that so much is handed to the elves that it is often a very unenjoyable experience to play anything else. For those who have tried to play a half-orc, a halfling or a gnome in a game that contains elves know what it is like for their specialty to be matched or completely outdone by a character who gets a dozen extra superior abilities and dozens of minor advantages to boot.
Tetsubo 08-19-07, 05:02 PM	That sort of metagaming is annoying. As for the half-elves... I've decided to do away with ALL cross-breed races...
Prime32 08-19-07, 05:30 PM	Why do they make so many subraces for elves? Because they're pretty :P But seriously, have any of you read Eldest (not a D&D book)? Many of the elves in that book use magic to alter their appearances - some are aquatic, some dragonoid, some even seem to be made of shadows. It is explained that elves are called "The Fair Folk" because each elf looks exactly as he or she wishes... and some go further than others. In short, a wizard did it. A lot of wizards.
G_Mancer 08-19-07, 06:37 PM	Because they sell. There are a lot of elf fanboys out there who think that elves are the best and buy everything with "elf" in it. And to make them happy (and to get their money) WotC invented more and more elves, one subrace for every class so that those fanboys have for every class a elf with an optimal ability bonus. :clap: i've never heard anyone say it out-loud, but that is one of the truest things ever.
Salla 08-19-07, 06:43 PM	:clap: i've never heard anyone say it out-loud, but that is one of the truest things ever. I would have phrased it slightly more politely, but that's the gist of it. People like elves. They could easily make the elven subraces into different races entirely, even of different creature types, but they wouldn't be as popular; you call it an elf, though, and it has instant traction.
TiwazTyrsfist 08-19-07, 07:29 PM	I think another reason is that Elves as a part of folk lore have a lot of different lore. Also, D&D elves (and Tolkien's elves) are a combination of Norse, Saxon, and Germanic Elves, and Several types of Fey, particularly the Sidhe from celtic myth. So, you've got a race that's a composite of inhumanly pretty races, who are warriors, scholars, masters of magic, lords of the wild, Kings of the farie, Remenants of a fallen race whose gods are dead, spirits of the wood, spirits of the lake, spirits of craft and artifice... And they are taller than men by a head, the same size as men, shorter than men by a head, and half the size of a man. Also, in Norse mythology, their were the Alfes (Elves) and the Svartalfes (Dark Elves). And the Nidevallir (Dwarves). And the Nidevallir and Svartalfes WERE THE SAME PEOPLE. So, there you go, another sub-race of elves, dwarves... Wait... Anyway, my point is, Elves as we think of them in the modern day are such a composite of different myths from different myth cycles that they evoke a myriad of images, often conflicting. Elves in one setting can be the wild men living in the woods, all rangers and druids, worshipping nature and trees. Elves in another setting can be the Depricated remains of a once great civilization, dying off as man ascends, in thier ancient cities of marble and magic. Elves in another setting are the warlike lords of the Wyld Fey, like human barbarians but with grace and finesse. And all of these are Elves, and all of these are fine. And the problem is, Writer one wants nature elves. Writer two wants Magic elves. Writer three wants Magic elves as well, but doesn't like the backstory Writer two wrote. Writer four wants Warrior Elves. Writer Five is hungry and wants Keebler Elves. Writer Six Wants warrior elves, but with a bit of nature as well. And so we end up with six different races of elves. You see?
LazyNinja 08-21-07, 10:27 AM	Multiclass XP penalties. Seriously, CON penalty and favored class wizard? Worst combination ever. So if you want to play a decent elf character (And who doesn't? See above.) you need a subrace with a different favored class. And if that subrace...happens...to have an INT bonus, so much the better. Wouldn't need so many subraces, for any of the standard races, if we ditched favored classes and the idea that race=culture. "Elves love magic!" "No, Aldhanan loves magic. Which is why he's a wizard. His brother Dathonian likes to hunt. Which is why he's a ranger. And their mother Jenella is a blacksmith." "But...but...elves love magic!"
Lord_Arkunsun 08-21-07, 11:37 AM	Because elves are cool. That's why. If anything, the Elves need to stop getting the short end of the stick and get a proper races book. Something that doesn't have Halflings and some other retarded winged race in it. The Forgotten Realms also needs to update with an Elves of the Forgotten realms or something.
Salla 08-21-07, 12:29 PM	Wouldn't need so many subraces, for any of the standard races, if we ditched favored classes and the idea that race=culture. I'm with ya. I disregard that concept ENTIRELY when I play, and I wish I could encourage my players to do the same.
Hebitsuikaza 08-21-07, 12:30 PM	And the problem is, Writer one wants nature elves. Writer two wants Magic elves. Writer three wants Magic elves as well, but doesn't like the backstory Writer two wrote. Writer four wants Warrior Elves. Writer Five is hungry and wants Keebler Elves. Writer Six Wants warrior elves, but with a bit of nature as well. And so we end up with six different races of elves. You see? And why can't these people be individuals of the same RACE with the same STAT BLOCK but simply from different tribes. Would you propose that if someone wanting a Norse Barbarian Human and someone wanted a young Chinese Shaolin Monk Human and someone wanted an Ethopian Sorcerer Human and someone wanted a Mayan Druid Human, that we should have specifically selected subraces for each of these humans that would be statistically custom built to be the best in each of their classes?
Climhazzard 08-21-07, 01:14 PM	I can think of three reasons why there are so many elven (and dwarven) sub-races in comparison to the shorter lived races. 1: The Mythological Reason D&D has the flavor of European mythology, with other world mythologies thrown in for good measure. There are many versions of elves, from the ugly Norse craftsmen (the original dark elves/dwarves), the fierce feral fey of Ireland, and the advanced elves of Tolkien's mythology. Just with my examples, you get the dark elves, the wild elves, and the gray elves. The same can be said of dwarves, but this topic is about elves. 2: The Biological Reason In D&D, there is concrete evidence for the existance of gods, humans and 10 foot tall green giants with radically different metabolisms can mate, and you can use bat crap to create fireballs. If that can happen, than surely creationism and Lamarckian evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Baptiste_Lamarck) are possible reasons for how some species and races came into being. Lamarckian evolution is when the parents pass on characteristics gained during their lifetime to their children. This means that an elven god can create the first elven race (sun elves in FR, high elves in generic), and have that race split off into various sub-races depending on what their parents did to survive. For example, a group of high elves living in a dangerous forest need to be tougher and hardier to survive, than the main civilized group of elves in their cities. This group become wild elves and wood elves. Another group of high elves live on the coast and train themselves to become better swimmers. After a few generations, they become aquatic elves. In D&D, you can combine creationism and Lamarckian evolution to explain how sub-races came into being. 3: The Marketing Reason 40 year old virgin geeks love playing make believe as drunk stout miners and 100 year old effete pretty boys. They just want the same race to be good at different classes.
LazyNinja 08-21-07, 02:03 PM	3: The Marketing Reason 40 year old virgin geeks love playing make believe as drunk stout miners and 100 year old effete pretty boys. They just want the same race to be good at different classes. Not to mention us late-twenties effete pretty boys who love playing make believe as stout miner geeks and 100 year old virgin drunks...
BlinkMash 08-21-07, 03:23 PM	why arent there any half-human races?
Treymordin 08-21-07, 05:26 PM	Well elves are really neat races to play and there were different types of elves even in Tolkein.
HappyNoodleBoy 08-21-07, 06:13 PM	To me, D&D has always been about having choices, but if you have a problem with subraces, it's pretty easy to avoid. If you don't want to play a wood elf in Forgotten Realms, just use the standard elf out of the PHB. If I'm rolling up a character, I don't get stumped trying to choose between subraces. (I save that for later, when I'm trying too hard to figure out which class/prestige class combo best fits the concept that's in my head)
Salla 08-21-07, 08:29 PM	why arent there any half-human races? That's what the other half of the half-elf and half-orc are.
Hellsbells 08-21-07, 08:38 PM	This has probably already been said but.... Even though they have a low birthrate they are very well attuned to nature. So after just 2 or 3 generations they begin to show racial variants to suit there environment. thats how I explain it in my campains at least. Theres also the classic Magical, Divine, Cultural or Mutigenic reasons. This is what I use for Frost, Aquatic, Wild, and Feral* (Which is a race in my campaign) elves, respectively. *Feral template applied to elves and is a stabalized civilization.
ChosenofAzuth 08-21-07, 09:54 PM	why arent there any half-human races? Half-Orc Half-Elf Half-Ogre Half-Giant Templates: Half-Dragon Half-Vampire Half-Fiend Half-Celestial Other human blooded races: Tiefling Aasimar Fire Genasi Eath Genasi Water Genasi Air Genasi
StruckingFuggle 08-21-07, 10:45 PM	Templates: Half-Dragon Half-Vampire Half-Fiend Half-Celestial Those are no more "human" than they are "goblin". Anyway. Yeah - I'd say that the biggest reason for so many elvish subspecieses and a lack of corresponding subspecieses for other any other species is mostly due to the creators responding to what the fanboys want (odd that this is what gets it, though, eh?) - elves sell, so elves get made to be sold. I think the only race with more powerful fanboyism is "human" - elves get the players, but humans get the creators. :)
Naderion 08-22-07, 06:06 AM	Are there that many elven subraces? Grayhawk has 6. (High, Gray, Aquatic, Drow, Wild, Wood) Faerūn had 6. (Moon, Sun, Wild, Aquatic, Drow, Avariel) (Wood and Star are new) Dragonlance has 3, I think. Middle-Earth has 5. Eberron has 3. There are 4 Subraces of dwarves in Grayhawk There are 7 in Faerūn Faerūn and Grayhawk have 3 subraces of gnomes and halflings. Elven subraces are probably the most, but not really much more than of other races.
nyysjan 08-22-07, 08:04 AM	Are there that many elven subraces? Grayhawk has 6. (High, Gray, Aquatic, Drow, Wild, Wood) Faerūn had 6. (Moon, Sun, Wild, Aquatic, Drow, Avariel) (Wood and Star are new) Dragonlance has 3, I think. Middle-Earth has 5. Eberron has 3. middle earth is not DnD setting so is irrelevant, star and wood elves need to be counted in faerun, no matter how new they are, and Eberron has only 2 elf sub species (elf and drow), and even there the subpsecies were artificially made (giants made the drow to act as spies and assassins). personally, i hate sub species without good reason, i have yet to see good reason fur subspecies in Faerun (well, other than drow and maybe deep gnomes, anything else should by only cultural differences imo)
Naderion 08-22-07, 08:13 AM	Middle Earth is a good example BECAUSE it's not an official D&D Setting. Even completely different and much older settings make heavy use of subraces.
queenfange 08-22-07, 08:16 AM	Removed with reason... Moderators, feel free to delete this post and sorry about the bother.
Naderion 08-22-07, 08:44 AM	At least in Faerūn, the original elven homeland is the outer plane of Arvandor from were the subraces emigrated, the Moon-Elves, Sun-Elves, Wood/Wild-Elves, Aquatic Elves, Dark Elves and Avariel. They all had their own racial Patrons, namely Sehanine, Corellon, Rillifane, Sashelas, Lolth/Arushnee and Aerdrie. There's no evolution involved at all, because elves are an artifical and not an evolved race and apparently each god modified the first elves crated from the blood of Corellon and the Tears of Sehanine to their own liking.
Prime32 08-22-07, 12:56 PM	Eberron has only 2 elf sub species (elf and drow), There is also a "sub-sub-species" - the powerful Umbragen drow. Eberron does do some things to reduce the number of subraces used - members of obscure subraces can't get dragonmarks since they're restricted to one family, and the wild elves' role is folded into the drow.
Hellsbells 08-22-07, 01:45 PM	Are there that many elven subraces? Grayhawk has 6. (High, Gray, Aquatic, Drow, Wild, Wood) Faerūn had 6. (Moon, Sun, Wild, Aquatic, Drow, Avariel) (Wood and Star are new) Dragonlance has 3, I think. Middle-Earth has 5. Eberron has 3. Dragonlance has four. Quilenost, Silvanesti, Aquatic, and Wild (Can't remember the name for the last two). There is also the dark elves but they are not a race. They are a changing that the few rare evil elves go through after excesive use of dark magic.
nyysjan 08-22-07, 02:29 PM	There is also a "sub-sub-species" - the powerful Umbragen drow. Eberron does do some things to reduce the number of subraces used - members of obscure subraces can't get dragonmarks since they're restricted to one family, and the wild elves' role is folded into the drow. Point, forgot about umbragen, never really read about them much, i only own ECS and S:CoT (leafed through most of the others though). Put still, no matter what kind of backstory people have given them, most elven subraces exist only for one thing, to make elf toons that are better suited for whatever class someone is making (otherwise you could just switch around the fluff and be done with it).
nyysjan 08-22-07, 02:36 PM	There is also a "sub-sub-species" - the powerful Umbragen drow. Eberron does do some things to reduce the number of subraces used - members of obscure subraces can't get dragonmarks since they're restricted to one family, and the wild elves' role is folded into the drow. Point, forgot about umbragen, never really read about them much, i only own ECS and S:CoT (leafed through most of the others though). Put still, no matter what kind of backstory people have given them, most elven subraces exist only for one thing, to make elf toons that are better suited for whatever class someone is making (otherwise you could just switch around the fluff and be done with it).
nyysjan 08-22-07, 02:45 PM	There is also a "sub-sub-species" - the powerful Umbragen drow. Eberron does do some things to reduce the number of subraces used - members of obscure subraces can't get dragonmarks since they're restricted to one family, and the wild elves' role is folded into the drow. Point, forgot about umbragen, never really read about them much, i only own ECS and S:CoT (leafed through most of the others though). Put still, no matter what kind of backstory people have given them, most elven subraces exist only for one thing, to make elf toons that are better suited for whatever class someone is making (otherwise you could just switch around the fluff and be done with it).
Prime32 08-23-07, 08:27 AM	^ Urk, triple post. The Umbragen are detailed in an issue of Dragon (#330, I believe), and first appeared in the PC RTS Dragonshard
Lord_Arkunsun 08-24-07, 09:14 AM	Faerun has: Avariel Wood Wild Moon Sun Star Drow Aquatic Edit *** Oh yeah they also have maztican Elves and Zakharan Elves Dragonlance has: Silvanesti Qualinesti Dargonesti Dimernesti Kagonesti and 3 others from Taladas Greyhawk has: High Grey Wood Wild Drow Aquatic Avariel and another that i can't remember the name (Urdunnir I think they were called, not sure...)
Khadmus 08-24-07, 09:22 AM	Corellon Larethian made them that way. Don't go whining about evolution; if evolution existed in D&D kobolds and goblins would rule the world.
Waldo_di 08-24-07, 11:15 AM	Here this is too help explain why there are so many diffrent breeds of elves... Elf + Human = Half-elf Elf + Tree = Wood Elf Elf + Fish = Aquatic Elf Elf + Gray Ooze = Gray Elf Elf + Spider = Drow Elf + A Bush = Wild Elf I hope this explains the variety of elves (know all somebody needs to do is explain how they breed with said Creatures/plants/Oozes.)
Lord_Arkunsun 08-24-07, 12:53 PM	Here this is too help explain why there are so many diffrent breeds of elves... Elf + Human = Half-elf Elf + Tree = Wood Elf Elf + Fish = Aquatic Elf Elf + Gray Ooze = Gray Elf Elf + Spider = Drow Elf + A Bush = Wild Elf I hope this explains the variety of elves (know all somebody needs to do is explain how they breed with said Creatures/plants/Oozes.) Not to nitpick, but that should be NOW, not KNOW. I am curious how do you get Grey Elf is Elf + Grey Ooze? A Grey Elf more accurately should be Greyhawk + Elf = Grey Elf, going by your method of thinking, seeing as Grey elves first appeared in Greyhawk.
Prime32 08-24-07, 03:18 PM	Okay, mating with a creature with no anatomy is one thing (that happens every week), but mating with a campaign setting?
CelticMutt 08-24-07, 03:47 PM	middle earth is not DnD setting so is irrelevant, star and wood elves need to be counted in faerun, no matter how new they are, and Eberron has only 2 elf sub species (elf and drow), and even there the subpsecies were artificially made (giants made the drow to act as spies and assassins). personally, i hate sub species without good reason, i have yet to see good reason fur subspecies in Faerun (well, other than drow and maybe deep gnomes, anything else should by only cultural differences imo) There are three separate elf subraces in Eberron - High, Aquatic, and Drow, with Valenar and Aeranal just being different flavors of High Elf, and Umbragen being Drow with a different favored class and access to different feats. And as others have said, there are just as many if not more dwarf subraces.
Woojitsu 08-24-07, 04:07 PM	Valenar elves are also technically a subrace since they have different racial weapon proficiencies than PHB elves. If I understand the rules correctly, a character with any rules differences from a core race is always a member of a subrace.
ranger_of_renwood 08-24-07, 08:13 PM	I think it's because elves are suppose to be great at everything and putting it all in one package would make them extremely powerful. Elves are... Expert woodsmen Good with magic Good swordsmen Agile Stealthy Cultured Fairly intelligent Possess keen sense of sight and hearing Attractive etc. Spreading some these traits out over a couple dozen subraces takes care of balance issues. Then of course you have your primitive and evil subrace, but nearly every race has one of those if not both. These reasons aside, people just seem to like elves in general.
Mojo_Rat 08-24-07, 08:40 PM	thing is for some reason Demi humans get a new Set of stats for every different culture. Thats why you get all these sub-races. Theres lots of human cultures in every game world But they all have the same Racial stats. Really I wish they did similar with Elves or dwarves etc. Change the favoried class change the Weapons the elves get and some variation in hte cultureal stuff but leave the primary race identical.
b3snyder 08-25-07, 07:24 PM	I'll first admit I'm not 100% familiar with all of the settings, so someone can correct me if I'm wrong ;) My impression is that although there are (nearly?) as many sub-races of the other non-humans as elves, only elves have different attribute modifiers for each sub race. Elven sub-races seem more like separate races, while the other non-human sub-races seem to be more of a "flavoring" of the main race.
Wulfgar 08-25-07, 10:37 PM	The missing elf species from Greyhawk is the Valley elf. Omigod! How gnarly! Aren't there two types of aquatic elf in Dragonlance? One version shapeshifts into otters and the other into dolphins? A teeny bit of history: The various breeds of elf were created by Gygax, what, 30 years ago? The purpose behind them was to allow the DM options in designing encounters, plus they mirrored, somewhat, popular fantasy such as LotR and Elfquest. None of the D&D subspecies were allowed as PCs until the original Unearthed Arcana was released (in '85?).
Naderion 08-26-07, 12:49 PM	Elven Subraces weren't the idea of Gygax some 30 years but an idea established by Tolkin published some 50 years ago (and created much earlier).