Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeoTiamat 03-01-07, 09:41 PM	To pass the time, I'm working on a Black Half-Dragon, and I've been thinking about some ways to make a more dragon-like character (Dragon Tail & Dragon Breath feats come to mind). The big thing, however, is wings. SRD says that Large+ Half Dragons get wings with a fly speed (average) of twice their land speed. I am intrigued. Unfortunately, most races that are large have fairly hefty HD or LA, which becomes prohibitive with the Half-Dragon's +3 LA. I know there are a pair of feats in Races of Dragon that allow flight, but its two feats and the flight is still inferior to that granted by the normal template. Any idea on how to get my Half Dragon to grow his nice big wings? Either a race or some fairly cheap combination of feats? Would Powerful-Build work? Goliaths are out, but perhaps Half-Giants? Alternative ideas?
zook1shoe666 03-01-07, 11:15 PM	check out the back of the Fiend Folio. the Fiendish Grafts can take care of the lack of wings, feathered wings are just 20k, while scaly wings are 50k
Banatine 03-02-07, 04:31 AM	I wouldn't think powerful build would count, since you aren't large size. but since it means you are counted as large when it would be beneficial, and having wings is certainly a benefit, you could look at it either way. i've always rules that they have wings no matter what. otherwise they really arent worth a +3. flight isn't really that game breaking.
CantripN 03-02-07, 04:45 AM	Human Heritage (Races of Destiny) lets you be affected by Enlarge Person. Voila, you are large.
runestar 03-02-07, 04:48 AM	Powerful build only lets you count as large for a very narrow list of benefits, which is explicitly spelled out in its desc. Counting as large for purposes of obtaining wings via the half-dragon template is not one of them, thus, powerful build will not work in this case.:)
CaoSlayer 03-02-07, 06:27 AM	10 levels of dragon disciple prc does it.
Templario 03-02-07, 06:54 AM	You can: 1. Talk to your DM and shows him that +3 LA without wings is a very lowblow to the template. If I were a DM, I would grant it without problems - except the wings would be the option below: 2. The Dragon Wings feat dosn't require another feat, it's just one. OK, aren't the best wings on the market, but resolves your problem. Just pick it as your first level feat. 3. the easiest way to be large is picking Half-Ogre template frm races of destiny - +2 LA.
Jersey Cowboy 03-02-07, 07:45 AM	I the campaign I'm running, I actually allowed the person playing a halfling half-silver dragon paladin of Bahamut to ignore her level adjustment (+3? Yikes!). I cleared this with the other players first, pointing out that, while at lower levels she'll be over-powered, at higher levels the difference won't be so noticable. The only real tweak I made was that her breath weapon only did one die of damage per character level, to the maximum given in the MM. Now, wings. Instead of granting her a mount at 5th level, I allowed the paladin to complete a service to a silver dragon in exchange for wings. Yeah, she's a powerful little paladin. She has natural armor, outstanding stats, a breath weapon, and can fly. But she's not any more powerful than the half-elf conjurer and the elven warblade she adventures with, and now that they're all approaching 12th level, the differences aren't all that apparant. Even her flying has been mitigated by lots of dungeon-crawling, good missile-wielding opponents, and magic-users. Oh, and the first time this group encountered a trio of frost-giants...THAT was fun! Enough rambling, my point is that DMs can find ways to make half-dragons that aren't large-sized with wings, you just have to be creative and make sure it's not gonna **** off the rest of the gaming group.
kadeity 03-02-07, 08:00 AM	Half Ogre from Savage Species is +1 and large. If i were your dm i would say you could do it as golaiath or half giant. But as the rules are written you cant. of course if i were your dm THIS would be an option too. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11627046&postcount=5 personally i dislike half dragons... since the whole idea is that you have a dragon parent... but oddly enough some dragons cant shapechange... so i dont get how they have haf-dragon babies of another species.
zook1shoe666 03-02-07, 08:13 AM	the Half-Ogre was reprinted in the Races of Destiny with a +2 LA.
NeoTiamat 03-02-07, 08:39 AM	Hmmm. It's an idea. A total of +5 LA is rather painful, but then again, the Half-Ogre is on the powerful side as well. +14 Strength, +4 Con, -2 Dex. The problem with the Dragon Wing feat is that its far inferior to the natural wings the build gets. The first Dragon Wings only give you the ability to glide a bit, while the second finally gives you a fly speed, but at 30 feet. So 2 feats, and you still have only half the speed the inborn wings would give.
Argaud 03-02-07, 10:32 AM	Half-ogre is not a template, it is a race. Races of the Dragon has a way for a half-dragon to gain wings through taking feats from a feat tree.
kadeity 03-02-07, 11:02 AM	the Half-Ogre was reprinted in the Races of Destiny with a +2 LA. the differences between the two are of note. The Races of Destiny one is +2 The Savage Species one is +1 and also has the Giant Blood Trait. i think the penalties for being large outweigh the benefits, and dont really see much problem in them being +1. if you reduce them to Medium size with Powerful build, theres really no reason why they shouldn't be +1. But yes, i see the point in saying "a newer splatbook has them listed as +2" its dm discretion at that point. Likely hell say +2, since large alone is often seen as worth a +1
Jaxgaret 03-02-07, 11:08 AM	Depending on what reasoning the DM takes for why only Large or larger Half-Dragons get Wings, a race with Powerful Build may indeed qualify for them. I understand where you are coming from, runestar, with your RAW interpretation of Powerful Build only providing certain benefits. But I think that the determination is not about the Powerful Build/Large dichotomy, but about the Wings ability itself. Why exactly do only Large or larger Half-Dragons get Wings? There must be some in-game reason for it. If in your campaign the reason for it is that only Large or larger Half-Dragons have the muscle mass to lift themselves off the ground and achieve flight, then Powerful Build could also qualify, if not by the RAW, but by the RAI.
runestar 03-03-07, 12:21 AM	Why exactly do only Large or larger Half-Dragons get Wings? There must be some in-game reason for it. If in your campaign the reason for it is that only Large or larger Half-Dragons have the muscle mass to lift themselves off the ground and achieve flight, then Powerful Build could also qualify, if not by the RAW, but by the RAI. Because npcs are more likely to be large than PCs. The only reason I can think of is a game mechanics one. Basically, I am under the impression that the game designers saw nothing wrong with allowing your enemies to access wings, but were not very enthusiastic about the idea regarding PCs. Whatever that reason is still eludes me to this day. This is why I believe the dragon disciple prc grants wings regardless of your size, when it supposed to mimic the half-dragon template.
NeoTiamat 03-03-07, 12:42 AM	Interesting. Main reason I want them is to engage in aerial dogfights with Vrocks. It could be potentially unbalancing, but only if the DM is foolish enough to throw too few air-borne or ranged foes. But you're right, it does seem a strange cut-off.
Jaxgaret 03-03-07, 12:59 AM	Because npcs are more likely to be large than PCs. The only reason I can think of is a game mechanics one. Basically, I am under the impression that the game designers saw nothing wrong with allowing your enemies to access wings, but were not very enthusiastic about the idea regarding PCs. Whatever that reason is still eludes me to this day. This is why I believe the dragon disciple prc grants wings regardless of your size, when it supposed to mimic the half-dragon template. Limiting access to natural flight for PCs is certainly a possibility, although at the level a DD PC character would gain the wings, Wizards have had Fly for many levels already, and other means of flying will be available to all characters. The 3.0 DD only gave wings/flight to Large or larger PCs also. It is only the 3.5 incarnation in which this was changed to allow any DD PC regardless of size to gain flight. That leads one to believe that the game designers - at least at first - decided that they wanted to give only all Large or larger Half-Dragons flight. Again, why could this be, mechanically speaking? True Dragons get flight from Wyrmling age.
runestar 03-03-07, 01:08 AM	The 3.0 DD only gave wings/flight to Large or larger PCs also. It is only the 3.5 incarnation in which this was changed to allow any DD PC regardless of size to gain flight. That leads one to believe that the game designers - at least at first - decided that they wanted to give only all Large or larger Half-Dragons flight. The 3.0 DD also made you increase by 1 size category, so medium sized characters would be able to access the wings as well.:) Again, why could this be, mechanically speaking? True Dragons get flight from Wyrmling age. Yah, but you are not a true dragon...:P Again, all I can say is that I have no idea, just plenty of conjectures...:embarrass
Jaxgaret 03-03-07, 01:40 AM	The 3.0 DD also made you increase by 1 size category, so medium sized characters would be able to access the wings as well.:) But one that has been increased in size by 1 category is no longer a medium sized character ;) Ha so, my retort-fu is strong! One more thing: do you think 3.0 DDs had wings, but could not use them to fly? It seems by a reading of the text as if the answer is no. If so, then there was some sort of physiological reasoning behind the limitation to Large-sized creatures, mechanically speaking.
runestar 03-03-07, 02:09 AM	One more thing: do you think 3.0 DDs had wings, but could not use them to fly? It seems by a reading of the text as if the answer is no. If so, then there was some sort of physiological reasoning behind the limitation to Large-sized creatures, mechanically speaking. Personally, I think it was just a very roundabout and indirect way of circumventing the limitations of the half-dragon template. The DD prc was simply to confer the half-dragon template over 10 lvs. The half-dragon template states that you must be large to get wings. However, the DD prc was always meant to grant functional wings. But I think this notion that only large half-dragons could get wings was somehow so firmly ingrained in the designer's mind that he felt the only way a normal PC could ever get wings would be to make them grow by 1 size category(which was another rules headache in itself), thus qualifying for wings, when he could simply have just revised the darn prc and explicitly stat that you get wings no matter what.:P
Darth Sephiroth 03-03-07, 02:47 AM	Perhaps a Half-Dragon Raptoran would be more to your liking then, perhaps swapping some of the fluff and abilities around to fit them as dragon people rather than birdmen
Templario 03-03-07, 07:24 AM	Hmmm. It's an idea. A total of +5 LA is rather painful, but then again, the Half-Ogre is on the powerful side as well. +14 Strength, +4 Con, -2 Dex. The problem with the Dragon Wing feat is that its far inferior to the natural wings the build gets. The first Dragon Wings only give you the ability to glide a bit, while the second finally gives you a fly speed, but at 30 feet. So 2 feats, and you still have only half the speed the inborn wings would give. Man, there isn't this 2nd feat you're talking about. The same feat (Dragon Wings) give you glide speed up to 6 HD, when you can fly like 3+CON modifier consecutive rounds . At 12 HD, you can fly normally. Basically is the same of raptoran, but a bit later.
Mark_Constantino 03-03-07, 08:11 AM	The Ogre LA is +2, but you have to take 4 racial hit dice first, and the centaur is also LA +2 with 4 racial hit dice. Both are Large so with Half-Dragon template would gain a fly speed. You could just take the half-celestial template with human base and have an LA +4, and that comes complete with a great pair of feathered wings with good maneuverability.
NeoTiamat 03-03-07, 09:27 AM	Man, there isn't this 2nd feat you're talking about. The same feat (Dragon Wings) give you glide speed up to 6 HD, when you can fly like 3+CON modifier consecutive rounds . At 12 HD, you can fly normally. Basically is the same of raptoran, but a bit later. Perhap's we're talking about different sources, but from Races of the Dragon: Dragon Wings: +10 to Jump Checks, Glide (flies downward, 20 feet horizontal, 5 feet down), and minimize falling damage to 1d6. Improved Dragon Wings: Allows you actually fly for 10 minutes a day, and at 12 HD gives a you a permanent fly speed of 30 ft. ----------------------------------------- Half-Celestial and Half-Fiend I've considered, but I find their abilities to be a fair bit worse (or at least less useful to me), and an extra point of LA. So it's still an idea, but I'd like to see what is possible here.
runestar 03-03-07, 09:34 AM	The Ogre LA is +2, but you have to take 4 racial hit dice first, and the centaur is also LA +2 with 4 racial hit dice. Both are Large so with Half-Dragon template would gain a fly speed. Yeah, but I would not really recommend it. Both are already crippled somewhat by the LA not granting hp/saves. So the best thing to do would be to quickly take some class lvs to benefit from the con bonus and make up for your lack of hp ASAP. Further compounding that problem with yet another template(again - no HD)...:( I am not really comfortable with a ECL9 PC having only 4 racial HD. A lucky crit would be all it takes to do me in...
Templario 03-03-07, 10:26 AM	Perhap's we're talking about different sources, but from Races of the Dragon: Dragon Wings: +10 to Jump Checks, Glide (flies downward, 20 feet horizontal, 5 feet down), and minimize falling damage to 1d6. Improved Dragon Wings: Allows you actually fly for 10 minutes a day, and at 12 HD gives a you a permanent fly speed of 30 ft. ----------------------------------------- You're damn right, pardon my former statements. You can simple give them both feats for free to turn the +3 LA really useful. Not the best wings, but...
MarduktheDestroyer 03-03-07, 10:49 AM	Asimar and Teiflings can take the Outsider Wings feat, i forget what book thats in though. Thats LA of +4 and a character that really reflects the good or evil of its draconic heritage. (Asimar for Metallic and Teifling for Chromatic.)
zook1shoe666 03-03-07, 10:59 AM	races of faerun
LordBOB777 03-03-07, 11:40 AM	There is also the Winged Template in Savage Species. Fly speed is Base land speed +20 feet, and the manuverability is based off of your Dex score, which you get +4 when you take the template.
Templario 03-03-07, 11:59 AM	There is also the Winged Template in Savage Species. Fly speed is Base land speed +20 feet, and the manuverability is based off of your Dex score, which you get +4 when you take the template. yeah, but gives to you +2 LA, and the template normally changes humanoids to monstrous humanoids. As half-dragons are normally Dragon, I don't know the future type.
Argaud 03-03-07, 12:14 PM	Yeah, but I would not really recommend it. Both are already crippled somewhat by the LA not granting hp/saves. So the best thing to do would be to quickly take some class lvs to benefit from the con bonus and make up for your lack of hp ASAP. Further compounding that problem with yet another template(again - no HD)...:( I am not really comfortable with a ECL9 PC having only 4 racial HD. A lucky crit would be all it takes to do me in... Ogre half-dragon, uh? Consider this: Yes, you have only 4HD, but since you are a dragon they are 4d10 with full bab, 6 skill points/level (x4 at first level), all good saves and listen and spot as racial skills. Base speed 40, 80 flying. Reach 10'. Breath weapon. Dragon immunities. +18 Str, +6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, +9 natural armor! With a 25 point build you can start with Str 32, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 10, Ch 9. Full plate and shield gives you AC 30 before any magical gear. You would have 46 hp, which is not much, but you are catching up quickly because of the huge Con.
Templario 03-03-07, 12:28 PM	Ogre half-dragon, uh? Consider this: Yes, you have only 4HD, but since you are a dragon they are 4d10 with full bab, 6 skill points/level (x4 at first level), all good saves and listen and spot as racial skills. Base speed 40, 80 flying. Reach 10'. Breath weapon. Dragon immunities. +18 Str, +6 Con, -2 Dex, -2 Int, +9 natural armor! With a 25 point build you can start with Str 32, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 10, Wis 10, Ch 9. Full plate and shield gives you AC 30 before any magical gear. You would have 46 hp, which is not much, but you are catching up quickly because of the huge Con. You'll be lagging 9 levels behind everyone... 9 Caster Level could make wonders against you :P
NeoTiamat 03-03-07, 01:28 PM	I'm trying fairly hard to keep the LA as low as possible. I really need to look at Races of Faerun more closely. There seem to be a lot if interesting feats there, but I never pay any attention to it. I'll go take a look at the feats there.
Argaud 03-03-07, 01:30 PM	You'll be lagging 9 levels behind everyone... 9 Caster Level could make wonders against you :P At 9th level? Please let me know how. Because if this guy manages to get the caster (and he flies at 80')... And why bring a caster to the argument? Half-dragons are never full casters. Compare him to warriors. He is 'lagging' 5 levels, not 9.
zook1shoe666 03-03-07, 01:35 PM	a 9th-level caster's fireball with energy substitution can deal 9d6 (~ 32) would almost kill you and thats just a single spell from the PHB.
Argaud 03-03-07, 01:49 PM	a 9th-level caster's fireball with energy substitution can deal 9d6 (~ 32) would almost kill you and thats just a single spell from the PHB. So? This guy will kill any level 9 wizard in one full attack. Or grapple him after charging 160' flying. What is the point of your post? A level 9 wizard could kill any non-elf adventurer with a sleep at 1st level, am I supposed to think it is bad because he can now kill the character in two rounds?
zook1shoe666 03-03-07, 01:52 PM	remember.... alot of this would depend on who goes first. what if the wizard cast Ghostform and became incorpereal, sux for your grappling.
Argaud 03-03-07, 02:08 PM	remember.... alot of this would depend on who goes first. what if the wizard cast Ghostform and became incorpereal, sux for your grappling. What if the half-dragon spontaneously transforms into a 200HD celestial dragon and eats the wizard? That is about as probable as a level 9 wizard casting a level 8 spell. Please, think before posting.
zook1shoe666 03-03-07, 02:12 PM	maybe i'm thinking of the one from the Tome and Blood 3.0 book. *looks* grr... they did change it to a 8th level spell. its all what if... this will go on for ever ;)
Templario 03-03-07, 02:18 PM	At 9th level? Please let me know how. Because if this guy manages to get the caster (and he flies at 80')... And why bring a caster to the argument? Half-dragons are never full casters. Compare him to warriors. He is 'lagging' 5 levels, not 9. I've quoted the OGRE half-dragon, not the Half-ogre/dragon.
NeoTiamat 03-03-07, 02:41 PM	Perhaps we can get back on topic? Yes, I recognize that LA will be an issue. That's allright by me. So far, best idea I've heard is Half-Ogre. Sure, +5 LA, but the strength is +14, Con +4, and Natural Armor +8. It's large, so no issues around wings. Alternatively, this also gives some fodder for what to ask for if the situation comes up. Any one else have ideas not previously said?
Argaud 03-03-07, 02:55 PM	Perhaps we can get back on topic? Yes, I recognize that LA will be an issue. That's allright by me. So far, best idea I've heard is Half-Ogre. Sure, +5 LA, but the strength is +14, Con +4, and Natural Armor +8. It's large, so no issues around wings. Alternatively, this also gives some fodder for what to ask for if the situation comes up. Any one else have ideas not previously said? If you want a half-ogre for RP reasons, go ahead. But the Half-ogre is weaker than the full ogre. Seriously. Both have 4HD at level 9. Are the class abilities of whatever class the half-ogre is taking better than 4D10, all-good saves, 6xlevel skills (including listen and spot), 1 more natural armor, better abilities (4 more Str and 2 more Con for 2 less Int and Cha) and +10 move (+20 flying)? I don't think so.
Derren S. 03-03-07, 03:02 PM	To pass the time, I'm working on a Black Half-Dragon, and I've been thinking about some ways to make a more dragon-like character (Dragon Tail & Dragon Breath feats come to mind). The big thing, however, is wings. In the same book (Races of Dragon) there is also the Dragon Wing feat which gives you wings. The catch is that it and Dragon Tail are both 1st level only so only a human half-dragon can take both.
Templario 03-03-07, 03:12 PM	In the same book (Races of Dragon) there is also the Dragon Wing feat which gives you wings. The catch is that it and Dragon Tail are both 1st level only so only a human half-dragon can take both. Yes, but the feat alone doesn't gives fly speed.
Treymordin 03-03-07, 07:24 PM	Take the feats and the subsitution (not sure if this is the right word) that helps you to get the 3 "class" levels in half-dragon.
Vrykolas2k 03-04-07, 11:42 PM	the Half-Ogre was reprinted in the Races of Destiny with a +2 LA. Also reprinted in Dragonlance Campaign setting, +1 LA.
Argaud 03-05-07, 12:07 AM	Also reprinted in Dragonlance Campaign setting, +1 LA. Very different critter, though.
asurademon 03-05-07, 04:10 AM	It's never made sense to me that only large or larger half-dragons get wings, really larger creatures aren't even as good at flying as smaller ones generally, and how many really big creatures fly in real life. Well real life aside since this is fantasy, even in D&D generally it's the really small flying creatures that fly really well, and larger ones not so well, unless you're talking about beings like demons and devils which sometimes are really good flyers despite their size. But dragons are worse at flying the larger they get, and it seems like if size should make a difference at all with half-dragons, it would be the smaller ones that would be able to fly, with the larger ones still having wings but not being able to fly well if at all. Anyways I'd get rid of the rule about size and half-dragons getting wings.
Templario 03-05-07, 07:51 AM	It's never made sense to me that only large or larger half-dragons get wings, really larger creatures aren't even as good at flying as smaller ones generally, and how many really big creatures fly in real life. Well real life aside since this is fantasy, even in D&D generally it's the really small flying creatures that fly really well, and larger ones not so well, unless you're talking about beings like demons and devils which sometimes are really good flyers despite their size. But dragons are worse at flying the larger they get, and it seems like if size should make a difference at all with half-dragons, it would be the smaller ones that would be able to fly, with the larger ones still having wings but not being able to fly well if at all. Anyways I'd get rid of the rule about size and half-dragons getting wings. This is represented within the maneuverability category - big fellas fly clumsy or poorly, medium guys fly average, smaller ones get good and perfect. but in D&D there's a feat to improve this, so some creatures can achieve Perfect maneuv. even being too big to normally be allowd to :)
asurademon 03-05-07, 06:37 PM	This is represented within the maneuverability category - big fellas fly clumsy or poorly, medium guys fly average, smaller ones get good and perfect. but in D&D there's a feat to improve this, so some creatures can achieve Perfect maneuv. even being too big to normally be allowd to :) Actually size doesn't affect how well half dragons can fly (short of those smaller than large not being able fly at all). Like I said it does affect the flight of true dragons, in that case it's true the larger they are the worse they fly, but not so with half-dragons. I just think if size is going to affect half-dragon flight at all it should do so in a way similar to how it affects true dragons.