Winged Template??!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Winged Template??!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TheDarkPrince
03-05-07, 12:07 AM Is there any winged template, that can be applied to anyone without level adjustment or heritage requirements? Thanks

Cheers :D
TheDarkPrince
03-05-07, 12:30 AM I remember reading about grafts somewhere, and that might work, but I also recall them being somewhat expensive. Anyone know where I can find grafts if there aren't any winged templates??
Chimaera2000
03-05-07, 12:41 AM The raptorans from Races of the Wild have wings, although they need quite a few levels before they can actually fly (they glide before then). You can also achieve flight eventually with the Dragonborn of Bahamut template from Races of the Dragon or the Draconic Wings and Improved Draconic Wings feats from the same book.
TheDarkPrince
03-05-07, 12:45 AM I've seen those feats, but I was hoping for something that didn't require racial modifications. And those feats are feat trees aren't they? Don't you need about two or more feats to be effective at all?
Fireclave
03-05-07, 12:52 AM Flight almost always comes with some kinda of penalty to prevent it from being abused at low level. Either its going to be staggered (such as with the raptorians), come with an level adjustment (such as with the Winged templated in Savage Species), or cost you some gold (for Winged Boots and similiar items).
TheDarkPrince
03-05-07, 10:46 PM Ok, what would you suggest having for a +0 LA winged template. How about fly half your base land speed, with good manueverability. And maybe take feats to increase speed and agility. Sorry if I seem kind of hellbent on this, I just really want a winged NPC without LA penalties.

Thanks

Cheers
HalfMunchkin
03-05-07, 10:54 PM For Good or better maneuverability, it is an automatic +1 level adjustment. The only way to get flight without an level adjustment is racial feats, grafts, spells or magic items. There isn't a template or race that is LA +0.
TheDarkPrince
03-05-07, 11:15 PM Yeah.....that's too bad.....oh well thanks.:weep:
keith187
03-05-07, 11:15 PM I just really want a winged NPC without LA penalties.

If it's on NPC then who cares about the LA. Just make the NPC, and give it wings. If the NPC for some odd reason eventually becomes a PC then you can just use the Unearthed Arcana LA buy off progression, and remove the LA that way.
TheDarkPrince
03-05-07, 11:31 PM How does that work? (UA is one of the books I DONT have, and yet really seem to need.....)
keith187
03-05-07, 11:40 PM Basicly every so many levels you can pay a chunk of xp to remove one from your level adjustment. The xp you pay levels you down which is the trade off for removing the LA.

Wow I'm an idiot here I am trying to think of a way to explain it wither getting in trouble and I forgot where I read about it in the first place.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm#experienceP ointCost

That'll tell you what you need to know.
TheDarkPrince
03-06-07, 12:24 AM Ok, thanks.

Is there a similar page about the winged template, or should I look it up in Savage Species?

Cheers
drunkendrake
03-06-07, 01:51 PM There's always dragon disciple if you're desparate.
Thomar_of_Uointer
03-06-07, 02:12 PM Magic of Incarnum has soulmelds that let you fly. One gives you permanent feather fall, while the other lets you fly a short distance as long as you start and end on the ground.
Tectorman
03-06-07, 02:51 PM Winged template is in the Savage Species book. It imposes an LA +1 adjustment or an LA +2 adjustment for good or perfect manueverability.
Nathreet
03-06-07, 03:22 PM Ok, what would you suggest having for a +0 LA winged template. How about fly half your base land speed, with good manueverability. And maybe take feats to increase speed and agility. Sorry if I seem kind of hellbent on this, I just really want a winged NPC without LA penalties.

Thanks

Cheers

For +0 LA, I'd make it average or worse manuevaribility. Probably poor. 60' speed. I'd also impose some kind of dex penalty to balance it, maybe -2. Even poor manuevaribility is still plenty to get you from point A to point B. Just not enough to fight, dodge, zig-zag or what not. And it makes sense logically: Humans aren't that light weight like birds; you can't expect good results from simply slapping some wings on them. Just ask the guys who tried and failed before the wright brothers.

If you want something for your higher level character that gives good manuevaribility without LA, just buy wings of flying for 54,000gp. Weighs 2 lbs., occupies the cloak slot (transforms from cloak to wings when needed). Winged boots for 16,000gp also works, though you only get 3/day for up to 5 minutes each.
CaoSlayer
03-06-07, 05:10 PM ummm for a +0 LA you need to lose as much as you are gaining...

having hollow bones would be a must, so the price of the wings would be at least a -2 Con, also say goodbye to your arms.
zook1shoe666
03-06-07, 06:06 PM the fiendish graft Feathered Wings from the Fiend Folio only costs a measley 10k and gives you fly x2 your land with good or average, can't remember offhand
Crimson_Concerto
03-06-07, 08:07 PM Winged template is in the Savage Species book. It imposes an LA +1 adjustment or an LA +2 adjustment for good or perfect manueverability.

No, the Winged template give +1 CR to a creature, but is always +2 LA regardless of maneuverability.
TheDarkPrince
03-07-07, 12:22 AM Thank you, these posts helped a lot.

Cheers!
Lotus Crane
03-07-07, 03:02 AM the fiendish graft Feathered Wings from the Fiend Folio only costs a measley 10k
If the OP is running such a low-level game that he can't afford to give even a NPC a LA +1 template without threatening to destroy the balance of the world, what makes you think that anybody could possibly have 10k to spare?
zook1shoe666
03-07-07, 10:27 AM yeah, in low level, but in low-mid and up, they just need to set priorities :-p
Darth Sephiroth
03-08-07, 04:42 AM With 3 feats you can get Good maneuverability with no LA

Lesser Aasimaar for your race with the Celestial Bloodline, Outsider Wings, and Improved Maneuverability feats.
Warforged Goblin
03-08-07, 09:09 AM Go easy on me, it's early...

SOARING TEMPLATE
Soaring creatures are found in and around areas with portals to the Plane of Elemental Air. While not true elemental creatures, they have been changed by the elemental energies they live, breed, and die in.
Soaring creatures are almost identical to their earthbound counterparts, except for the powerful wings on their backs. Their wings, while at first odd or shocking to the casual observer, match the creatures perfectly; a soaring crocodile has warty green reptilian wings while a soaring displacer beast has a deep purple wing made of a velvet membrane of skin.

SAMPLE SOARING CREATURE
Soaring Black Bear
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 Hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), fly 20 ft (Poor)
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+3) and bite +1 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Flight, hollow bones, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +3, Jump +5, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +7
Feats: Endurance, Run
Environment: Temperate mountains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 2
Advancement: 4 – 5 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: -

COMBAT
Soaring black bears use similar tactics to their non-flying cousins, attacking prey with claws and teeth.
Skills: A soaring black bear has a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Swim checks.

CREATING A SOARING CREATURE
“Soaring” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal creature that does not have a fly speed (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
A soaring creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes.
Size and Type: The base creature’s size and type remain unchanged.
Special Qualities: A soaring creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following qualities.
Flight (Ex): A soaring creature gains a fly speed equal to half its land speed with a maneuverability based on its Dexterity score (see table below).

Dexterity: Maneuverability
9 and below: Clumsy
10 – 13: Poor
14 – 17: Average
18 – 21: Good
22+: Perfect

Hollow Bones (Ex): Should a soaring creature be subject to a critical hit, the critical multiplier is increased by 1. Soaring creatures immune to critical hits take normal critical hit damage.
Skills: A soaring creatures gains a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.
Abilities: -2 Str, -2 Con
Environment: Any mountains
Challenge Rating: +0
Level Adjustment: +0

I think it balances out, what do you think?
Darth Sephiroth
03-08-07, 09:47 AM I'd add a +2 Dexterity to it and I'd think it's workable.
RobbyPants
03-08-07, 10:09 AM The soaring template is actually pretty good. My only concern is having the manuverability based on Dex. Perhaps it could be based on size, or improve based on levels or hit dice.
Warforged Goblin
03-08-07, 10:18 AM I'd add a +2 Dexterity to it and I'd think it's workable.

I was originally thinking about adding that, but I felt that giving it the +2 Dex would make it overpowered.

The soaring template is actually pretty good. My only concern is having the manuverability based on Dex. Perhaps it could be based on size, or improve based on levels or hit dice.

Maybe the HD, but I'm not sure. I'll be honest, adjudicating the maneuverability was the toughest thing, so I went with the "easiest" solution, but for what it's worth I think it makes sense...
Tectorman
03-08-07, 01:23 PM No, the Winged template give +1 CR to a creature, but is always +2 LA regardless of maneuverability.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of the quote from Chapter 2, Introductory Monsters, Level Adjustment Facters, Speed, Fly. That's where it says that a monster with a fly speed gets a +1 LA with an average or worse maneuverability, or a +2 LA if its maneuverability is good or better (that's a paraphrase, by the way). So I wasn't entirely wrong.

(Don't be fooled. The above is just me being petty and weakly defending my earlier comments.)
The_Shaman
03-08-07, 03:43 PM Speaking of a flying race, I have something in mind... Aren't the OA hengeyoukai LA 0 now? I think there are some bird hengeyoukai that could fly in their hybrid form as well as, of course, the animal one.
TheDarkPrince
03-08-07, 10:21 PM I agree with the dex bonus. Thanks for the template.
Warforged Goblin
03-09-07, 09:20 AM I agree with the dex bonus. Thanks for the template.

Agree with me or Darth Sephiroth?
RobbyPants
03-09-07, 09:43 AM Maybe the HD, but I'm not sure. I'll be honest, adjudicating the maneuverability was the toughest thing, so I went with the "easiest" solution, but for what it's worth I think it makes sense...
It might not be optimal, but perhaps it could be adjusted by feats. Start it at average maneuverability, and allow a feat to increase it one step. Let the feat be taken multiple times to get to perfect.
Warforged Goblin
03-09-07, 11:12 AM It might not be optimal, but perhaps it could be adjusted by feats. Start it at average maneuverability, and allow a feat to increase it one step. Let the feat be taken multiple times to get to perfect.

I like the idea of the maneuverability being Dex based because the Dexterity score represents how agile you are. Let's say that a soaring character has a Dex of 16, which gives him Good maneuverabilty. He saves up and buys gloves of Dexterity +2, which bump him up to 18; Average maneuverabilty. Let's say he get hit with some type of Dexterity-draining poison and his Dex drops to 12. It's not unbelievable for his maneuverabilty to drop either (which it would in this case, to Poor).

Granted though, this is what I'd do in my game. If you like basing it off of HD or feats, so be it. I'm just glad yunz liked the template, considering that I pulled it outta my ass when I typed it up.
RobbyPants
03-09-07, 11:13 AM Granted though, this is what I'd do in my game. If you like basing it off of HD or feats, so be it. I'm just glad yunz liked the template, considering that I pulled it outta my ass when I typed it up.
:rofl: Nicely done! ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TheDarkPrince 03-05-07, 12:07 AM	Is there any winged template, that can be applied to anyone without level adjustment or heritage requirements? Thanks Cheers :D
TheDarkPrince 03-05-07, 12:30 AM	I remember reading about grafts somewhere, and that might work, but I also recall them being somewhat expensive. Anyone know where I can find grafts if there aren't any winged templates??
Chimaera2000 03-05-07, 12:41 AM	The raptorans from Races of the Wild have wings, although they need quite a few levels before they can actually fly (they glide before then). You can also achieve flight eventually with the Dragonborn of Bahamut template from Races of the Dragon or the Draconic Wings and Improved Draconic Wings feats from the same book.
TheDarkPrince 03-05-07, 12:45 AM	I've seen those feats, but I was hoping for something that didn't require racial modifications. And those feats are feat trees aren't they? Don't you need about two or more feats to be effective at all?
Fireclave 03-05-07, 12:52 AM	Flight almost always comes with some kinda of penalty to prevent it from being abused at low level. Either its going to be staggered (such as with the raptorians), come with an level adjustment (such as with the Winged templated in Savage Species), or cost you some gold (for Winged Boots and similiar items).
TheDarkPrince 03-05-07, 10:46 PM	Ok, what would you suggest having for a +0 LA winged template. How about fly half your base land speed, with good manueverability. And maybe take feats to increase speed and agility. Sorry if I seem kind of hellbent on this, I just really want a winged NPC without LA penalties. Thanks Cheers
HalfMunchkin 03-05-07, 10:54 PM	For Good or better maneuverability, it is an automatic +1 level adjustment. The only way to get flight without an level adjustment is racial feats, grafts, spells or magic items. There isn't a template or race that is LA +0.
TheDarkPrince 03-05-07, 11:15 PM	Yeah.....that's too bad.....oh well thanks.:weep:
keith187 03-05-07, 11:15 PM	I just really want a winged NPC without LA penalties. If it's on NPC then who cares about the LA. Just make the NPC, and give it wings. If the NPC for some odd reason eventually becomes a PC then you can just use the Unearthed Arcana LA buy off progression, and remove the LA that way.
TheDarkPrince 03-05-07, 11:31 PM	How does that work? (UA is one of the books I DONT have, and yet really seem to need.....)
keith187 03-05-07, 11:40 PM	Basicly every so many levels you can pay a chunk of xp to remove one from your level adjustment. The xp you pay levels you down which is the trade off for removing the LA. Wow I'm an idiot here I am trying to think of a way to explain it wither getting in trouble and I forgot where I read about it in the first place. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm#experienceP ointCost That'll tell you what you need to know.
TheDarkPrince 03-06-07, 12:24 AM	Ok, thanks. Is there a similar page about the winged template, or should I look it up in Savage Species? Cheers
drunkendrake 03-06-07, 01:51 PM	There's always dragon disciple if you're desparate.
Thomar_of_Uointer 03-06-07, 02:12 PM	Magic of Incarnum has soulmelds that let you fly. One gives you permanent feather fall, while the other lets you fly a short distance as long as you start and end on the ground.
Tectorman 03-06-07, 02:51 PM	Winged template is in the Savage Species book. It imposes an LA +1 adjustment or an LA +2 adjustment for good or perfect manueverability.
Nathreet 03-06-07, 03:22 PM	Ok, what would you suggest having for a +0 LA winged template. How about fly half your base land speed, with good manueverability. And maybe take feats to increase speed and agility. Sorry if I seem kind of hellbent on this, I just really want a winged NPC without LA penalties. Thanks Cheers For +0 LA, I'd make it average or worse manuevaribility. Probably poor. 60' speed. I'd also impose some kind of dex penalty to balance it, maybe -2. Even poor manuevaribility is still plenty to get you from point A to point B. Just not enough to fight, dodge, zig-zag or what not. And it makes sense logically: Humans aren't that light weight like birds; you can't expect good results from simply slapping some wings on them. Just ask the guys who tried and failed before the wright brothers. If you want something for your higher level character that gives good manuevaribility without LA, just buy wings of flying for 54,000gp. Weighs 2 lbs., occupies the cloak slot (transforms from cloak to wings when needed). Winged boots for 16,000gp also works, though you only get 3/day for up to 5 minutes each.
CaoSlayer 03-06-07, 05:10 PM	ummm for a +0 LA you need to lose as much as you are gaining... having hollow bones would be a must, so the price of the wings would be at least a -2 Con, also say goodbye to your arms.
zook1shoe666 03-06-07, 06:06 PM	the fiendish graft Feathered Wings from the Fiend Folio only costs a measley 10k and gives you fly x2 your land with good or average, can't remember offhand
Crimson_Concerto 03-06-07, 08:07 PM	Winged template is in the Savage Species book. It imposes an LA +1 adjustment or an LA +2 adjustment for good or perfect manueverability. No, the Winged template give +1 CR to a creature, but is always +2 LA regardless of maneuverability.
TheDarkPrince 03-07-07, 12:22 AM	Thank you, these posts helped a lot. Cheers!
Lotus Crane 03-07-07, 03:02 AM	the fiendish graft Feathered Wings from the Fiend Folio only costs a measley 10k If the OP is running such a low-level game that he can't afford to give even a NPC a LA +1 template without threatening to destroy the balance of the world, what makes you think that anybody could possibly have 10k to spare?
zook1shoe666 03-07-07, 10:27 AM	yeah, in low level, but in low-mid and up, they just need to set priorities :-p
Darth Sephiroth 03-08-07, 04:42 AM	With 3 feats you can get Good maneuverability with no LA Lesser Aasimaar for your race with the Celestial Bloodline, Outsider Wings, and Improved Maneuverability feats.
Warforged Goblin 03-08-07, 09:09 AM	Go easy on me, it's early... SOARING TEMPLATE Soaring creatures are found in and around areas with portals to the Plane of Elemental Air. While not true elemental creatures, they have been changed by the elemental energies they live, breed, and die in. Soaring creatures are almost identical to their earthbound counterparts, except for the powerful wings on their backs. Their wings, while at first odd or shocking to the casual observer, match the creatures perfectly; a soaring crocodile has warty green reptilian wings while a soaring displacer beast has a deep purple wing made of a velvet membrane of skin. SAMPLE SOARING CREATURE Soaring Black Bear Medium Animal Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 Hp) Initiative: +1 Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), fly 20 ft (Poor) Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12 Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6 Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d4+3) Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+3) and bite +1 melee (1d6+2) Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft Special Attacks: - Special Qualities: Flight, hollow bones, low-light vision, scent Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +2 Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6 Skills: Climb +3, Jump +5, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +7 Feats: Endurance, Run Environment: Temperate mountains Organization: Solitary or pair Challenge Rating: 2 Advancement: 4 – 5 HD (Medium) Level Adjustment: - COMBAT Soaring black bears use similar tactics to their non-flying cousins, attacking prey with claws and teeth. Skills: A soaring black bear has a +4 racial bonus on Jump and Swim checks. CREATING A SOARING CREATURE “Soaring” is an inherited template that can be added to any corporeal creature that does not have a fly speed (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A soaring creature uses all the base creature’s statistics and abilities except as noted here. Do not recalculate the creature’s Hit Dice, base attack bonus, saves, or skill points if its type changes. Size and Type: The base creature’s size and type remain unchanged. Special Qualities: A soaring creature retains all the special qualities of the base creature and also gains the following qualities. Flight (Ex): A soaring creature gains a fly speed equal to half its land speed with a maneuverability based on its Dexterity score (see table below). Dexterity: Maneuverability 9 and below: Clumsy 10 – 13: Poor 14 – 17: Average 18 – 21: Good 22+: Perfect Hollow Bones (Ex): Should a soaring creature be subject to a critical hit, the critical multiplier is increased by 1. Soaring creatures immune to critical hits take normal critical hit damage. Skills: A soaring creatures gains a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. Abilities: -2 Str, -2 Con Environment: Any mountains Challenge Rating: +0 Level Adjustment: +0 I think it balances out, what do you think?
Darth Sephiroth 03-08-07, 09:47 AM	I'd add a +2 Dexterity to it and I'd think it's workable.
RobbyPants 03-08-07, 10:09 AM	The soaring template is actually pretty good. My only concern is having the manuverability based on Dex. Perhaps it could be based on size, or improve based on levels or hit dice.
Warforged Goblin 03-08-07, 10:18 AM	I'd add a +2 Dexterity to it and I'd think it's workable. I was originally thinking about adding that, but I felt that giving it the +2 Dex would make it overpowered. The soaring template is actually pretty good. My only concern is having the manuverability based on Dex. Perhaps it could be based on size, or improve based on levels or hit dice. Maybe the HD, but I'm not sure. I'll be honest, adjudicating the maneuverability was the toughest thing, so I went with the "easiest" solution, but for what it's worth I think it makes sense...
Tectorman 03-08-07, 01:23 PM	No, the Winged template give +1 CR to a creature, but is always +2 LA regardless of maneuverability. Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of the quote from Chapter 2, Introductory Monsters, Level Adjustment Facters, Speed, Fly. That's where it says that a monster with a fly speed gets a +1 LA with an average or worse maneuverability, or a +2 LA if its maneuverability is good or better (that's a paraphrase, by the way). So I wasn't entirely wrong. (Don't be fooled. The above is just me being petty and weakly defending my earlier comments.)
The_Shaman 03-08-07, 03:43 PM	Speaking of a flying race, I have something in mind... Aren't the OA hengeyoukai LA 0 now? I think there are some bird hengeyoukai that could fly in their hybrid form as well as, of course, the animal one.
TheDarkPrince 03-08-07, 10:21 PM	I agree with the dex bonus. Thanks for the template.
Warforged Goblin 03-09-07, 09:20 AM	I agree with the dex bonus. Thanks for the template. Agree with me or Darth Sephiroth?
RobbyPants 03-09-07, 09:43 AM	Maybe the HD, but I'm not sure. I'll be honest, adjudicating the maneuverability was the toughest thing, so I went with the "easiest" solution, but for what it's worth I think it makes sense... It might not be optimal, but perhaps it could be adjusted by feats. Start it at average maneuverability, and allow a feat to increase it one step. Let the feat be taken multiple times to get to perfect.
Warforged Goblin 03-09-07, 11:12 AM	It might not be optimal, but perhaps it could be adjusted by feats. Start it at average maneuverability, and allow a feat to increase it one step. Let the feat be taken multiple times to get to perfect. I like the idea of the maneuverability being Dex based because the Dexterity score represents how agile you are. Let's say that a soaring character has a Dex of 16, which gives him Good maneuverabilty. He saves up and buys gloves of Dexterity +2, which bump him up to 18; Average maneuverabilty. Let's say he get hit with some type of Dexterity-draining poison and his Dex drops to 12. It's not unbelievable for his maneuverabilty to drop either (which it would in this case, to Poor). Granted though, this is what I'd do in my game. If you like basing it off of HD or feats, so be it. I'm just glad yunz liked the template, considering that I pulled it outta my ass when I typed it up.
RobbyPants 03-09-07, 11:13 AM	Granted though, this is what I'd do in my game. If you like basing it off of HD or feats, so be it. I'm just glad yunz liked the template, considering that I pulled it outta my ass when I typed it up. :rofl: Nicely done! ;)