worth +8 LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

worth +8 LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
atomisk9455
10-15-07, 12:50 AM Racial Ability Modifiers: +6 Intelligence, -2 Constitution, +8 Wisdom, +4 Strength, -4 Charisma
Type: Monstrous Humanoid (Wee'diox)
Size: Small. A Wee'diok's size is small, which gives it a +2 bonus on Hide checks. Due to it's muscle mass, a Wee'diok can lift objects as if it was a large-size creature.
Quills: A Wee'diok's quills give it a +3 natural armor bonus.
Speed: A Wee'diok's base land speed is 35 feet. Additionally, it has a swim speed of 20 feet.
Telepathy: A Wee'diok can communicate with any living creature with intelligence.
Quill Katana: A Wee'diok can remove one of it's quills, at the cost of half it's hit points, to make a permanent Masterwork Katana. This causes the creature extreme pain, and thus they prefer to only make one in a lifetime. Stealing a Wee'diok's Quill Katana is never a wise choice because earning the ire of a single Wee'diok means earning the ire of all it's tribe, who will stop at nothing to return the quill to it's master.
Automatic Languages: Koourish,Common.
Favored class: Scout.
Level Adjustment: +8

i dont think so
Magrus
10-15-07, 01:12 AM I'd say a +8 LA to be honest. However, you screwed up the Size bonus deal. It's a standard thing, everyone that is small gets Small Size stat alterations. It should be a +4 to Hide, as well as the +1 to AC and Hit, -4 to Grapple and the standard modifiers to Dex, Con and Str as well. If you feel the need to modify things beyond that, this is tacked on top of things.

You threw together a random +5 ft per round speed to things. That costs a feat, adding together a swim speed too? That's definitely a +1 LA on top of the +5 or so LA from attribute modifiers alone. Not to mention a +1 for the Natural Armor.

Why the qualifying of Large Size for lifting purposes? Why not Medium? Small creatures equipment is already significantly reduced in weight from a Medium person's equipment weight. I'd slap a +1 LA at least on there as a DM just for the illogic of it being brought up to me and costing me time to think it through. It's not anything huge in most scenarios, but there's no reason for it, at all in a normal game scenario.

The quill removal thing? That's silly. Auto halving of HP total in order to get a MASTERWORK bastard sword? Something that costs a feat in order to use properly reduces your most important game mechanic of survival for something that loses all importance in the game for any character that doesn't have attack spells by level 6? Why include that, at all? :confused:

You start with a ECL 9 character. At this point, a Wizard is busting out with Cloudkill and Teleport a few times a day. Your character? Can walk 5 ft per round faster, has stats all the time which would cost the wizard all of his 2nd level spell slots for the day to buff himself for a limited time, and a masterwork bastard sword, that only cost him half of his HP, which couldn't have been much more than 16 in the first place for a melee character. So now, you've got this guy with probably a 16 AC before equipment, unless he's a monk, which would be 20 instead, who has 6 or so HP and a "free" non-magical weapon who can't cast spells and a +6 to hit, assuming his base Str is 14 or higher before modifiers from Str are added in for race.

Your wizard foe, the one with Teleport, Cone of Cold, and Cloudkill at his beck and call? Had more HP than you do now when he started out at ECL 1, and his attack rolls are going to be the same bonus as your so long as he can pull a +2 out of Str, Dex, size, or weapon bonuses. PLUS, he can set you on fire, turn himself into a dragon, and teleport across the country to the little castle with his spellbook in it to recharge.
Majick
10-15-07, 01:25 AM 1. Despite having +4 to strength (and even though that's HUGE for a small race) i don't know if the large sized carry weight thing really works for me. I guess it's interesting fluff but you didn't really give any descriptions of what the spikey little guys look like.

2. Also, spikey, but no penalties to wearing armor or bonuses to melee or grapple damage?

3. Halving HP is bad, but do you mean permanently halves HP or just for however long it takes them to heal back to full again?

4. speed 35" is kinda weird... any reason for this number?

5. Also also, when you say lifting things as a large creature, you do just mean lifiting right? Not using large sized katanas as a small creature? 'Cause that wouldn't just be powerful build, that would be ridiculously powerful build

Conclusion: from the way i read it, even with all those benefits, i wouldn't go above maybe level adjustment +4 or +5 for these guys. There simply not powerful enough to justify LA +8
atomisk9455
10-15-07, 01:26 AM its not my race i was just asking. vampires get more than this dont thay ?:(
atomisk9455
10-15-07, 01:28 AM thank you like i say this is not my race i think it is kinda stupid for it to lift lrg size stuff :) i think its teel he heals its not permanint
atomisk9455
10-15-07, 01:42 AM Background
Wee'diox are always contemplative, but they are rarely cold-hearted. Their passion for knowledge surpasses even that of Aboleths and Illithids, and they therefore they make excellent inventors. The wee'diox despise Aboleths with a passion, and, if they get the chance, go out of their way to kill every single individual in an Aboleth community. In fact, Wee'diox get along with non-aberrations well, and are especially fond of Inevitables, who are in turn very friendly with the Wee'diox. Because they hate the cold, Wee'diox live in warm forests, though they also dislike extremely bright light. The language of the wee'diox is Koourish, a language named after their deity, Grond Koour, the deity of the endless pursuit of knowledge. Wee'diox children, who are extremely intelligent from birth, pick their own names. Wee'diox, due to their caring nature, are typically lawful neutral, but sometimes become lawful good. There has yet to be recorded a chaotic or evil Wee'diok.

Physical Description
A Wee'diok is typically about as tall as a tallefellow halfling, and has a muscular relatively humanoid body, except for the mane of quills that run from it's head down to about mid-back and 2 pairs of small fangs where it's canine teeth would be. The weight of a wee'diok ranges from 70-105 pounds; the reason for it's weight that is abnormal for it's size is because of it quills and muscle mass.
runestar
10-15-07, 03:17 AM This thing is no more than a LA +3, IMO.

Too high LAs tend to make a race unplayable, regardless of what special abilities it has, because you have so little HD, hp and saves, meaning you are dead the moment someone so much as sneezes on you.
gullas
10-15-07, 09:02 AM its somewhere atound +4 - +6 LA I would say.....
goawayugh
10-15-07, 10:09 AM I'm not a very good judge of LAs, but there is NO WAY this is a LA+8!
Maybe +3...

The game mechanics are kinda weird though. Lifting as Large? 35'? +4 Str for small is odd.
Ieniemienie
10-15-07, 10:15 AM I'm not a very good judge of LAs, but there is The game mechanics are kinda weird though. Lifting as Large? 35'? +4 Str for small is odd.
Change these weird things and the race is imho LA +4
larry_the_titan
10-15-07, 01:38 PM A LA +8 shouldn't be played at all unless your DM is giving you the LA for free. Other then that though you should compare these things to Half-celestial, fiend or Farspawned creatures which are LA +4. Stack Half Fiend (MM) and Half Farspawned (LoM) on top of each other on a human and see if they are equal. If they are not it is not worth LA+8
smeagol_lied
10-15-07, 01:43 PM Nothing is worth +8LA. The 8 more HD your human friends have over you are better than any freaky ability you traded them for. For one thing, you probably won't survive long enough to use them, with those hp.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-15-07, 01:43 PM This doesn't even begin to approach LA +8. Seriously. Nowhere close. It's more like +3, at most. I'd probably go with two racial HD and LA +1, to make it actually playable.
ToastedAmphibian
10-15-07, 04:21 PM Does anyone else picture this thing jumping on robots and being chased around by a little mutant fox?
atomisk9455
10-15-07, 06:18 PM so if i reduce the modifiers to +1Intelligence, -1 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +1Strength, -1 Charisma speed to 30 and the abilate to use and carry med size stuff what LA would it be?
ToastedAmphibian
10-15-07, 06:48 PM +1? Thats kinda like starting a 2/3 BAB progression at 1 instead of zero. sure there isnt any reason you COULDNT, but you just cant. Presidence and all that.
Einvaldurinn_mikli
10-15-07, 07:01 PM so if i reduce the modifiers to +1Intelligence, -1 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +1Strength, -1 Charisma speed to 30 and the abilate to use and carry med size stuff what LA would it be?

None at all.
runestar
10-15-07, 09:04 PM Nothing is worth +8LA. The 8 more HD your human friends have over you are better than any freaky ability you traded them for. For one thing, you probably won't survive long enough to use them, with those hp.

There are a few exceptions. The astral deva has 12 outsider HD and LA+8, while the ghaele has 10 outsider HD and LA+10. Yet they remain rather rather choice for PCs, because of the many special powers they get.

But for this race, definitely not.:)
ArochanoX
10-16-07, 01:42 AM just posting my suggestions and incorporating some other good suggestions others have made.

Wee'Diox
Small Monstrous Humanoid (+1 size bonus on AC and to hit rolls, +4 size bonus on hide checks, -4 size penalty on grapple checks)
Ability Modifiers: +2 Strenght. +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +6 Intelligence, +8 Wisdom, -4 Charisma
+3 Natural Armor: Wee'Diox's quills that cover its skin are extremely tough.
Base Land Speed 30 ft, Swim Speed 20 ft
Darkvision 60 ft
Skill Bonuses: +4 bonus on all craft checks, +2 bonus on move silently, +2 bonus on survival.
Telepathy: A Wee'diok can communicate with any intelligent (Int 3+) living creature within 100 ft.
Heavy Weight Lifter: Wee'Diox is treated as medium creature when determining carrying capacity.
Quill Katana: A Wee'diok can remove one of it's quills, at the cost of 2 constitution drain, to make a permanent Masterwork Katana. This causes the creature extreme pain, and thus they prefer to only make one in a lifetime.
Automatic Languages: Koourish,Common.
Favored class: Scout.
Level Adjustment: +3
atomisk9455
11-02-07, 05:13 PM Bump
:P
Saiyamantis
11-02-07, 11:49 PM Sagelike wisdom, genius level intelligence, a thirst for knowledge... and their favored class is scout? I'd peg these guys as wizards, maybe druids. Scout makes no sense.
StruckingFuggle
11-03-07, 01:47 AM Out of curiosity, I saw several people (well a few) take issue with +4 str and 35' on a small creature - what's so strange about that?

And yeah, +3 is a lot better than +8.

It's an interesting concept, certainly.

Regarding Quill Katana, though, what if one is undead?
Echodork
11-03-07, 02:50 AM I'll come out and say that giving a race massive bonuses to casting stats (Int and Wis mostly) is useless if the race is high +LA. I can't imagine an instance in which I'd want to play a +4 LA race with +6 Int +8 Wis... what class would I play? Full caster is pretty much out, you lose two full levels of spell progression in return for a couple bonus spells and a small bonus to spell save DC. A Scout, the Wee'Diox's favored class, only benefits marginally from Int and not at all from Wisdom... why are these guys so anxious to be Scouts?

Drop the insane Wis bonus and replace it with Dex. That makes sense for a Scout... high Dex for ranged attacks and AC, high Int for skills. 30' move is useful for a Small creature, but everything else you listed is fluff.

+2 Str, +6 Dex, -2 Con, +6 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha
Small, 30' move
+3 NA
Telepathy
Swim speed, katana thing, skill bonuses
+2 LA

This is more or less balanced with say, Githzerai, who are +6 Dex +2 Wis with a small number of fluff abilities for +2 LA.
StruckingFuggle
11-03-07, 02:55 AM I'll come out and say that giving a race massive bonuses to casting stats (Int and Wis mostly) is useless if the race is high +LA. I can't imagine an instance in which I'd want to play a +4 LA race with +6 Int +8 Wis... what class would I play? Full caster is pretty much out, you lose two full levels of spell progression in return for a couple bonus spells and a small bonus to spell save DC. A Scout, the Wee'Diox's favored class, only benefits marginally from Int and not at all from Wisdom... why are these guys so anxious to be Scouts?

Monk (heh). Swordsage. Warblade. Maybe with Swasbuckler levels.
Echodork
11-04-07, 12:18 AM Monk (heh). Swordsage. Warblade. Maybe with Swasbuckler levels.
With +8 worth of LA to play with, you don't think you can find a better race for a Swordsage or Warblade than this?

And you'd play a small sized Monk with 8 lost levels? :)
StruckingFuggle
11-04-07, 01:32 AM Oh, I missed that you meant +8 LA. I thought you meant just in genral, high enough LA to gimp casting ... but in general, no, class levels are usually better than LA - I was just pointing out that non-caster races with mental adjustments aren't necessarily bad compared to physical ones.
AtsuiShoto
11-04-07, 06:22 PM In my mind, the only time any kind of LA is mechanically worthwhile would be for a weapon-wielder (assuming the LA comes with very high Dex and/or Str) or a very specialized class (say... the Phrenic template for +4 Cha could be worth it for a Marshal).

On the other hand, the mechanics may not always be the utmost concern. Any race can be loads of fun. This Wee'diox looks like it would make a fun character, so long as it isn't built directly against the race's strengths. I could actually see this making a decent Ranger/Druid, with excellent tracking ability (-3 Survival ranks from LA, +4 from Wisdom, +2 racial bonus, Scent from other forms, and 3 more skill points/lvl from Intelligence) and the Telepathy would come in VERY handy for training and looking out for your animal companion. Your low-level spells may not even be a complete waste, as their save DCs will be +4.
Rune_Munch
11-04-07, 07:31 PM In our current campaign, where we play Shar worshippers trying to subvert Halruua, our group consists of the following:

1 Sorcerer / Eldritch Master (Dragon Magazine) / Fate Spinner / Arch Mage, Human

1 Enchanter / Mindbender, Human Vampire (assisted by shar to function better in a political society)

1 Sorcerer / Shadow Adept / Shadowcraft Mage (w/o the gnome flavour), Human Shade

1 Cleric / Shadow Adept / "shar worshipping cleric PrC", Human Vampire (assisted by shar to function better in a political society)

1 Necromancer / Shadow Necromancer (home brew PrC based on the True Necromancer, but with shado adept aspects in stead of cleric spells), Eternal Disciple of Shar (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=940308)

I personally find that the LA isn't that large of an obstacle when all or most of the characters of the group have a LA of some sort. Ofcourse we are all casters, and compliment eachother nicely, so it might not be as large of an issue as in other groups where the one or two casters have to do all the artillery work and healing ;)

[EDIT: oh, and i thought that i'd mention that we just hit level 20 last session, played from level 1]
Neutronium_Dragon
11-05-07, 03:10 AM The newer version works at +3 LA. If you knocked the Int and Wis modifiers down to +2 or +4 as well, it'd probably be +1 or +2 instead.
Finfreeze
11-05-07, 11:18 AM I dunno. Bring the Strength bonus up to +4, lower the Intelligence and Wisdom bonuses to +4 and +6 respectively, give it automatic damage while grappling or being grappled (quills gotta count for somethin'), and it could probably work as a LA +2 race.

Since they're such good lifters, how about giving them Powerful Build or a bonus to grapple checks? Just a thought.
CrimsonDeath
11-05-07, 11:48 AM its not my race

Whose is it?
Count Arioch the 28th
11-05-07, 12:05 PM The original race is a +2 LA at the most.

The newer version is +0 to +1.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
atomisk9455 10-15-07, 12:50 AM	Racial Ability Modifiers: +6 Intelligence, -2 Constitution, +8 Wisdom, +4 Strength, -4 Charisma Type: Monstrous Humanoid (Wee'diox) Size: Small. A Wee'diok's size is small, which gives it a +2 bonus on Hide checks. Due to it's muscle mass, a Wee'diok can lift objects as if it was a large-size creature. Quills: A Wee'diok's quills give it a +3 natural armor bonus. Speed: A Wee'diok's base land speed is 35 feet. Additionally, it has a swim speed of 20 feet. Telepathy: A Wee'diok can communicate with any living creature with intelligence. Quill Katana: A Wee'diok can remove one of it's quills, at the cost of half it's hit points, to make a permanent Masterwork Katana. This causes the creature extreme pain, and thus they prefer to only make one in a lifetime. Stealing a Wee'diok's Quill Katana is never a wise choice because earning the ire of a single Wee'diok means earning the ire of all it's tribe, who will stop at nothing to return the quill to it's master. Automatic Languages: Koourish,Common. Favored class: Scout. Level Adjustment: +8 i dont think so
Magrus 10-15-07, 01:12 AM	I'd say a +8 LA to be honest. However, you screwed up the Size bonus deal. It's a standard thing, everyone that is small gets Small Size stat alterations. It should be a +4 to Hide, as well as the +1 to AC and Hit, -4 to Grapple and the standard modifiers to Dex, Con and Str as well. If you feel the need to modify things beyond that, this is tacked on top of things. You threw together a random +5 ft per round speed to things. That costs a feat, adding together a swim speed too? That's definitely a +1 LA on top of the +5 or so LA from attribute modifiers alone. Not to mention a +1 for the Natural Armor. Why the qualifying of Large Size for lifting purposes? Why not Medium? Small creatures equipment is already significantly reduced in weight from a Medium person's equipment weight. I'd slap a +1 LA at least on there as a DM just for the illogic of it being brought up to me and costing me time to think it through. It's not anything huge in most scenarios, but there's no reason for it, at all in a normal game scenario. The quill removal thing? That's silly. Auto halving of HP total in order to get a MASTERWORK bastard sword? Something that costs a feat in order to use properly reduces your most important game mechanic of survival for something that loses all importance in the game for any character that doesn't have attack spells by level 6? Why include that, at all? :confused: You start with a ECL 9 character. At this point, a Wizard is busting out with Cloudkill and Teleport a few times a day. Your character? Can walk 5 ft per round faster, has stats all the time which would cost the wizard all of his 2nd level spell slots for the day to buff himself for a limited time, and a masterwork bastard sword, that only cost him half of his HP, which couldn't have been much more than 16 in the first place for a melee character. So now, you've got this guy with probably a 16 AC before equipment, unless he's a monk, which would be 20 instead, who has 6 or so HP and a "free" non-magical weapon who can't cast spells and a +6 to hit, assuming his base Str is 14 or higher before modifiers from Str are added in for race. Your wizard foe, the one with Teleport, Cone of Cold, and Cloudkill at his beck and call? Had more HP than you do now when he started out at ECL 1, and his attack rolls are going to be the same bonus as your so long as he can pull a +2 out of Str, Dex, size, or weapon bonuses. PLUS, he can set you on fire, turn himself into a dragon, and teleport across the country to the little castle with his spellbook in it to recharge.
Majick 10-15-07, 01:25 AM	1. Despite having +4 to strength (and even though that's HUGE for a small race) i don't know if the large sized carry weight thing really works for me. I guess it's interesting fluff but you didn't really give any descriptions of what the spikey little guys look like. 2. Also, spikey, but no penalties to wearing armor or bonuses to melee or grapple damage? 3. Halving HP is bad, but do you mean permanently halves HP or just for however long it takes them to heal back to full again? 4. speed 35" is kinda weird... any reason for this number? 5. Also also, when you say lifting things as a large creature, you do just mean lifiting right? Not using large sized katanas as a small creature? 'Cause that wouldn't just be powerful build, that would be ridiculously powerful build Conclusion: from the way i read it, even with all those benefits, i wouldn't go above maybe level adjustment +4 or +5 for these guys. There simply not powerful enough to justify LA +8
atomisk9455 10-15-07, 01:26 AM	its not my race i was just asking. vampires get more than this dont thay ?:(
atomisk9455 10-15-07, 01:28 AM	thank you like i say this is not my race i think it is kinda stupid for it to lift lrg size stuff :) i think its teel he heals its not permanint
atomisk9455 10-15-07, 01:42 AM	Background Wee'diox are always contemplative, but they are rarely cold-hearted. Their passion for knowledge surpasses even that of Aboleths and Illithids, and they therefore they make excellent inventors. The wee'diox despise Aboleths with a passion, and, if they get the chance, go out of their way to kill every single individual in an Aboleth community. In fact, Wee'diox get along with non-aberrations well, and are especially fond of Inevitables, who are in turn very friendly with the Wee'diox. Because they hate the cold, Wee'diox live in warm forests, though they also dislike extremely bright light. The language of the wee'diox is Koourish, a language named after their deity, Grond Koour, the deity of the endless pursuit of knowledge. Wee'diox children, who are extremely intelligent from birth, pick their own names. Wee'diox, due to their caring nature, are typically lawful neutral, but sometimes become lawful good. There has yet to be recorded a chaotic or evil Wee'diok. Physical Description A Wee'diok is typically about as tall as a tallefellow halfling, and has a muscular relatively humanoid body, except for the mane of quills that run from it's head down to about mid-back and 2 pairs of small fangs where it's canine teeth would be. The weight of a wee'diok ranges from 70-105 pounds; the reason for it's weight that is abnormal for it's size is because of it quills and muscle mass.
runestar 10-15-07, 03:17 AM	This thing is no more than a LA +3, IMO. Too high LAs tend to make a race unplayable, regardless of what special abilities it has, because you have so little HD, hp and saves, meaning you are dead the moment someone so much as sneezes on you.
gullas 10-15-07, 09:02 AM	its somewhere atound +4 - +6 LA I would say.....
goawayugh 10-15-07, 10:09 AM	I'm not a very good judge of LAs, but there is NO WAY this is a LA+8! Maybe +3... The game mechanics are kinda weird though. Lifting as Large? 35'? +4 Str for small is odd.
Ieniemienie 10-15-07, 10:15 AM	I'm not a very good judge of LAs, but there is The game mechanics are kinda weird though. Lifting as Large? 35'? +4 Str for small is odd. Change these weird things and the race is imho LA +4
larry_the_titan 10-15-07, 01:38 PM	A LA +8 shouldn't be played at all unless your DM is giving you the LA for free. Other then that though you should compare these things to Half-celestial, fiend or Farspawned creatures which are LA +4. Stack Half Fiend (MM) and Half Farspawned (LoM) on top of each other on a human and see if they are equal. If they are not it is not worth LA+8
smeagol_lied 10-15-07, 01:43 PM	Nothing is worth +8LA. The 8 more HD your human friends have over you are better than any freaky ability you traded them for. For one thing, you probably won't survive long enough to use them, with those hp.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-15-07, 01:43 PM	This doesn't even begin to approach LA +8. Seriously. Nowhere close. It's more like +3, at most. I'd probably go with two racial HD and LA +1, to make it actually playable.
ToastedAmphibian 10-15-07, 04:21 PM	Does anyone else picture this thing jumping on robots and being chased around by a little mutant fox?
atomisk9455 10-15-07, 06:18 PM	so if i reduce the modifiers to +1Intelligence, -1 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +1Strength, -1 Charisma speed to 30 and the abilate to use and carry med size stuff what LA would it be?
ToastedAmphibian 10-15-07, 06:48 PM	+1? Thats kinda like starting a 2/3 BAB progression at 1 instead of zero. sure there isnt any reason you COULDNT, but you just cant. Presidence and all that.
Einvaldurinn_mikli 10-15-07, 07:01 PM	so if i reduce the modifiers to +1Intelligence, -1 Constitution, +1 Wisdom, +1Strength, -1 Charisma speed to 30 and the abilate to use and carry med size stuff what LA would it be? None at all.
runestar 10-15-07, 09:04 PM	Nothing is worth +8LA. The 8 more HD your human friends have over you are better than any freaky ability you traded them for. For one thing, you probably won't survive long enough to use them, with those hp. There are a few exceptions. The astral deva has 12 outsider HD and LA+8, while the ghaele has 10 outsider HD and LA+10. Yet they remain rather rather choice for PCs, because of the many special powers they get. But for this race, definitely not.:)
ArochanoX 10-16-07, 01:42 AM	just posting my suggestions and incorporating some other good suggestions others have made. Wee'Diox Small Monstrous Humanoid (+1 size bonus on AC and to hit rolls, +4 size bonus on hide checks, -4 size penalty on grapple checks) Ability Modifiers: +2 Strenght. +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution, +6 Intelligence, +8 Wisdom, -4 Charisma +3 Natural Armor: Wee'Diox's quills that cover its skin are extremely tough. Base Land Speed 30 ft, Swim Speed 20 ft Darkvision 60 ft Skill Bonuses: +4 bonus on all craft checks, +2 bonus on move silently, +2 bonus on survival. Telepathy: A Wee'diok can communicate with any intelligent (Int 3+) living creature within 100 ft. Heavy Weight Lifter: Wee'Diox is treated as medium creature when determining carrying capacity. Quill Katana: A Wee'diok can remove one of it's quills, at the cost of 2 constitution drain, to make a permanent Masterwork Katana. This causes the creature extreme pain, and thus they prefer to only make one in a lifetime. Automatic Languages: Koourish,Common. Favored class: Scout. Level Adjustment: +3
atomisk9455 11-02-07, 05:13 PM	Bump :P
Saiyamantis 11-02-07, 11:49 PM	Sagelike wisdom, genius level intelligence, a thirst for knowledge... and their favored class is scout? I'd peg these guys as wizards, maybe druids. Scout makes no sense.
StruckingFuggle 11-03-07, 01:47 AM	Out of curiosity, I saw several people (well a few) take issue with +4 str and 35' on a small creature - what's so strange about that? And yeah, +3 is a lot better than +8. It's an interesting concept, certainly. Regarding Quill Katana, though, what if one is undead?
Echodork 11-03-07, 02:50 AM	I'll come out and say that giving a race massive bonuses to casting stats (Int and Wis mostly) is useless if the race is high +LA. I can't imagine an instance in which I'd want to play a +4 LA race with +6 Int +8 Wis... what class would I play? Full caster is pretty much out, you lose two full levels of spell progression in return for a couple bonus spells and a small bonus to spell save DC. A Scout, the Wee'Diox's favored class, only benefits marginally from Int and not at all from Wisdom... why are these guys so anxious to be Scouts? Drop the insane Wis bonus and replace it with Dex. That makes sense for a Scout... high Dex for ranged attacks and AC, high Int for skills. 30' move is useful for a Small creature, but everything else you listed is fluff. +2 Str, +6 Dex, -2 Con, +6 Int, -2 Wis, -4 Cha Small, 30' move +3 NA Telepathy Swim speed, katana thing, skill bonuses +2 LA This is more or less balanced with say, Githzerai, who are +6 Dex +2 Wis with a small number of fluff abilities for +2 LA.
StruckingFuggle 11-03-07, 02:55 AM	I'll come out and say that giving a race massive bonuses to casting stats (Int and Wis mostly) is useless if the race is high +LA. I can't imagine an instance in which I'd want to play a +4 LA race with +6 Int +8 Wis... what class would I play? Full caster is pretty much out, you lose two full levels of spell progression in return for a couple bonus spells and a small bonus to spell save DC. A Scout, the Wee'Diox's favored class, only benefits marginally from Int and not at all from Wisdom... why are these guys so anxious to be Scouts? Monk (heh). Swordsage. Warblade. Maybe with Swasbuckler levels.
Echodork 11-04-07, 12:18 AM	Monk (heh). Swordsage. Warblade. Maybe with Swasbuckler levels. With +8 worth of LA to play with, you don't think you can find a better race for a Swordsage or Warblade than this? And you'd play a small sized Monk with 8 lost levels? :)
StruckingFuggle 11-04-07, 01:32 AM	Oh, I missed that you meant +8 LA. I thought you meant just in genral, high enough LA to gimp casting ... but in general, no, class levels are usually better than LA - I was just pointing out that non-caster races with mental adjustments aren't necessarily bad compared to physical ones.
AtsuiShoto 11-04-07, 06:22 PM	In my mind, the only time any kind of LA is mechanically worthwhile would be for a weapon-wielder (assuming the LA comes with very high Dex and/or Str) or a very specialized class (say... the Phrenic template for +4 Cha could be worth it for a Marshal). On the other hand, the mechanics may not always be the utmost concern. Any race can be loads of fun. This Wee'diox looks like it would make a fun character, so long as it isn't built directly against the race's strengths. I could actually see this making a decent Ranger/Druid, with excellent tracking ability (-3 Survival ranks from LA, +4 from Wisdom, +2 racial bonus, Scent from other forms, and 3 more skill points/lvl from Intelligence) and the Telepathy would come in VERY handy for training and looking out for your animal companion. Your low-level spells may not even be a complete waste, as their save DCs will be +4.
Rune_Munch 11-04-07, 07:31 PM	In our current campaign, where we play Shar worshippers trying to subvert Halruua, our group consists of the following: 1 Sorcerer / Eldritch Master (Dragon Magazine) / Fate Spinner / Arch Mage, Human 1 Enchanter / Mindbender, Human Vampire (assisted by shar to function better in a political society) 1 Sorcerer / Shadow Adept / Shadowcraft Mage (w/o the gnome flavour), Human Shade 1 Cleric / Shadow Adept / "shar worshipping cleric PrC", Human Vampire (assisted by shar to function better in a political society) 1 Necromancer / Shadow Necromancer (home brew PrC based on the True Necromancer, but with shado adept aspects in stead of cleric spells), Eternal Disciple of Shar (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=940308) I personally find that the LA isn't that large of an obstacle when all or most of the characters of the group have a LA of some sort. Ofcourse we are all casters, and compliment eachother nicely, so it might not be as large of an issue as in other groups where the one or two casters have to do all the artillery work and healing ;) [EDIT: oh, and i thought that i'd mention that we just hit level 20 last session, played from level 1]
Neutronium_Dragon 11-05-07, 03:10 AM	The newer version works at +3 LA. If you knocked the Int and Wis modifiers down to +2 or +4 as well, it'd probably be +1 or +2 instead.
Finfreeze 11-05-07, 11:18 AM	I dunno. Bring the Strength bonus up to +4, lower the Intelligence and Wisdom bonuses to +4 and +6 respectively, give it automatic damage while grappling or being grappled (quills gotta count for somethin'), and it could probably work as a LA +2 race. Since they're such good lifters, how about giving them Powerful Build or a bonus to grapple checks? Just a thought.
CrimsonDeath 11-05-07, 11:48 AM	its not my race Whose is it?
Count Arioch the 28th 11-05-07, 12:05 PM	The original race is a +2 LA at the most. The newer version is +0 to +1.