Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Asharlin 03-18-07, 11:27 PM	I'm thinking of modifiying humans by giving them a selectable elemental sub-type (immune to element, +50% dmg from opposed) and losing their bonus skills. Does that need an LA or is it reasnoble?
Scion of Coldshard 03-18-07, 11:36 PM	It isnt quite worth a -1 LA but it is certainly a large drop in power. If you can change it as an immediate action or something that would ramp up its power to an insane level though. Did you mean permanent once chosen or reselectable in some time frame?
runestar 03-19-07, 12:07 AM	Subtype alone might not be enough to warrant a full LA (IMO), but it seems a bit quite strong for LA+0 as well. Imagine a barb with the fire subtype raging with that feat which gives you the cold subtype. Effective immunity to both fire and cold outright. :P
Part-Human2 03-19-07, 12:29 AM	Savage Species introducted a Ritual for this and it's pegged at +1 LA.
Asharlin 03-19-07, 12:35 AM	It isnt quite worth a -1 LA but it is certainly a large drop in power. If you can change it as an immediate action or something that would ramp up its power to an insane level though. Did you mean permanent once chosen or reselectable in some time frame? Chosen once. Savage Species introducted a Ritual for this and it's pegged at +1 LA. Didn't know that. =0
Asharlin 03-19-07, 12:39 AM	Subtype alone might not be enough to warrant a full LA (IMO), but it seems a bit quite strong for LA+0 as well. Imagine a barb with the fire subtype raging with that feat which gives you the cold subtype. Effective immunity to both fire and cold outright. :P What feat gives you the Cold subtype? =0 Heh.
runestar 03-19-07, 12:48 AM	Can't remember the name, but it is in frostburn. The fire subtype variant is in sandstorm, IIRC. It makes for nice combos as well. Your fighter can wade into battle, without fear of accidentally being torched by the wizard's fireball...:P
Asharlin 03-19-07, 12:53 AM	Can't remember the name, but it is in frostburn. The fire subtype variant is in sandstorm, IIRC. It makes for nice combos as well. Your fighter can wade into battle, without fear of accidentally being torched by the wizard's fireball...:P Heh, I never got any of the enviromental books...=) Good to know. =)
Templario 03-19-07, 12:57 AM	Dragon Magic introduced the base races with dragonblood subtype variants, and they have the same LA (orcs, lizardfolk and hobglobins appeared there too)
Asharlin 03-19-07, 01:01 AM	Dragon Magic introduced the base races with dragonblood subtype variants, and they have the same LA (orcs, lizardfolk and hobglobins appeared there too) But did those subtypes grant immunity to an element? --------------------------- Anyway, I think the conclusion is...keep the skills and grant an LA of +1. =)
Red_Rabbit 03-19-07, 12:54 PM	I'd give a +1 ECL for a subtype change, because if you made them Subtype Fire, Outsider or Shapechanger. Than they become Immune to any spell that effects humanoids: Charm Person, Hold Person and Dominate Person. That's just an addition to whatever subtype you put on them gains. Although they do gain some new weaknesses, but alot of those won't follow up until they are higher lvl such as Dismissal or any other spell that would send them back to there true plane of existance. The Rabbit
Red_Rabbit 03-19-07, 12:57 PM	There are 2 different spells that give Fire and Cold subtype. There durations are instantous the Cold on is from Frostburn and the Fire one is from Burning....something (i can't remember the actual name of that book). The Rabbit
Scion of Coldshard 03-19-07, 01:11 PM	I'd give a +1 ECL for a subtype change, because if you made them Subtype Fire, Outsider or Shapechanger. Than they become Immune to any spell that effects humanoids Why would giving them the subtype [Fire] make them immune to humanoid/person spells? Also, I have always seen being immune to person spells as a wash. Being immune to the beneficial person spells, which are proactive rather than defensive, has always been a bigger hit in my experience. For the topic at hand though, being immune to an energy type is nice. Being extra vulnerable to another can be a death sentence. If you pick a common one to be immune to, such as fire, then you are extra vulnerable to the other commone one, in this case cold. Likely being able to tell a person has a subtype would be automatic or an appropriate knowledge check. Once that is done you are in a very bad situation.
Neutronium_Dragon 03-19-07, 01:48 PM	The Fire or Cold subtypes probably aren't an LA by themselves. They're handy, but I'd be more inclined to swap out the bonus feat (essentially, they're pre-spending the feat on the subtype-granting one). Nor do Fire, Cold, or Shapechanger subtypes make you immune to anything based on the humanoid type. You'd have to change type, not subtype, for that to happen. Outsider is a type, so changing to that is a concern, but even then it's a type which carries some serious downsides and is probably an overall detriment from a PC standpoint.
Asharlin 03-19-07, 11:39 PM	I'd give a +1 ECL for a subtype change, because if you made them Subtype Fire, Outsider or Shapechanger. Than they become Immune to any spell that effects humanoids: Charm Person, Hold Person and Dominate Person. That's just an addition to whatever subtype you put on them gains. Although they do gain some new weaknesses, but alot of those won't follow up until they are higher lvl such as Dismissal or any other spell that would send them back to there true plane of existance. The Rabbit Elemental Subtypes (e.g. Cold, Acid) not others (e.g. Outsider, Extraplanar, Shapechanger). So your point is invalid, thanks for trying to help tho. Why would giving them the subtype [Fire] make them immune to humanoid/person spells? Also, I have always seen being immune to person spells as a wash. Being immune to the beneficial person spells, which are proactive rather than defensive, has always been a bigger hit in my experience. For the topic at hand though, being immune to an energy type is nice. Being extra vulnerable to another can be a death sentence. If you pick a common one to be immune to, such as fire, then you are extra vulnerable to the other commone one, in this case cold. Likely being able to tell a person has a subtype would be automatic or an appropriate knowledge check. Once that is done you are in a very bad situation. Since the type of 'variant' human would be rare, it would be a knowledge check. But by the same token, a group could go all Cold sub-typed with Tomb-tained soul and the group 'nukers' could go Uttercold. You'd be able to do AoE Cold/Negative energy fireballs which healed your meat shields AND did full damage to living opponents. Which is why I think it should cost something, certain combinations can do some nice things that would normally be unavailable until your able to buy a Ring of <Element> Immunity (or less effectively, a Ring of Major <Resistance> Element). The Fire or Cold subtypes probably aren't an LA by themselves. They're handy, but I'd be more inclined to swap out the bonus feat (essentially, they're pre-spending the feat on the subtype-granting one). Nor do Fire, Cold, or Shapechanger subtypes make you immune to anything based on the humanoid type. You'd have to change type, not subtype, for that to happen. Outsider is a type, so changing to that is a concern, but even then it's a type which carries some serious downsides and is probably an overall detriment from a PC standpoint. So your saying go with a human racial feat selectable only at first level then? That probably would work too, but the Frostburn feat he refered too only works for Barbians (or other classes with the Rage feature).
Scion of Coldshard 03-20-07, 12:07 AM	Since the type of 'variant' human would be rare, it would be a knowledge check. But by the same token, a group could go all Cold sub-typed with Tomb-tained soul and the group 'nukers' could go Uttercold. You'd be able to do AoE Cold/Negative energy fireballs which healed your meat shields AND did full damage to living opponents. Which is why I think it should cost something, certain combinations can do some nice things that would normally be unavailable until your able to buy a Ring of <Element> Immunity (or less effectively, a Ring of Major <Resistance> Element). The knowledge check would likely be low however. The basic race has either 0 or 1 hd, depending on how you want to count it, so a DC 10 or 11 knowledge check. Possibly different to simply be able to tell about the descriptor, depends on the dm. Some creatures are obvious about their types, some not so much. Also, it looks like your combo requires being a specific race, a specific alignment, have a pile of feats, and it relies on a questionable reading of at least one of the abilities to even work. It already sounds like it is costing a whole lot. I am not sure why being able to splice things together from various noncore sources should make the race cost more. Especially when it is gaining a benefit and a drawback. There are great combos out there for quite a few options, that does not mean that everything should cost more however.
Asharlin 03-20-07, 01:38 AM	The knowledge check would likely be low however. The basic race has either 0 or 1 hd, depending on how you want to count it, so a DC 10 or 11 knowledge check. Possibly different to simply be able to tell about the descriptor, depends on the dm. Some creatures are obvious about their types, some not so much. But unless there is a visual cue (in-game) how will you connect it to /make/ a knowledge check that gives a useful answer? I never said anything about changing appearence or anything, just adding of a subtype. So after you dropped a fireball on a Human with the [Fire] subtype and they completely ignore it without even attempting to dodge, you'd IC think about the problem. But by then you've already expended a spell and that extra 50% damage will probably be partially stopped by a Resist or Protection spell. Which puts you back to square 1 since 50% is not a big enough bonus when the other guy can 'stop' 10 damage/spell to overcome the delay of a round. That's assuming of course, your fighting PC vs. Caster NPC, instead of a Magma Mephit or something which can't 'change' the element it uses. Also, it looks like your combo requires being a specific race, a specific alignment, have a pile of feats, and it relies on a questionable reading of at least one of the abilities to even work. It already sounds like it is costing a whole lot. I am not sure why being able to splice things together from various noncore sources should make the race cost more. Especially when it is gaining a benefit and a drawback. There are great combos out there for quite a few options, that does not mean that everything should cost more however. I almost never play in games where it is 'core only', maybe that is unusual but I (and the people I play with) find core only boring after a couple adventures. And since I'm usually terrible at min/maxing, if I see one decent combination there probably are alot more and most of them better. Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly but to get Lord of the Uttercold takes 2 feats, tomb tainted is another feat. So that is three feats. Tomb Tainted allows you to be healed by negative energy as if you were an undead creature. Energy Substitution (cold) doesn't cost anything beyond that feat. Uttercold deals half cold and half negative energy 'power' (either healing undead or damaging living) to the target(s) of the spell. It also doesnt' cost anything beyond the feat. With an Uttercold Fireball dropped on yourself, you'd deal an average of 30 damage to the opposition and heal yourself for 15. And being 'not good' to me doesn't seem to be a serious alignment restriction. Maybe that's because I almost always play neutral or evil characters. =) I don't see how any of that is questionable? --------------------- I figured it was an advantage, and so having it cost 'something'. If everyone thinks it is or isn't (which seems to be a split vote based on people posting here) on the boards I'd tend to lean that way before suggesting it to anyone in RL. And tbh, since most people think it's feat and/or LA +1 worthy I'd drop the race restriction.
Scion of Coldshard 03-20-07, 09:36 AM	But unless there is a visual cue (in-game) how will you connect it to /make/ a knowledge check that gives a useful answer? ? The dm will say, 'roll a knowledge(X) check'. The players will. Those succeeding will get information based on their rolls. This is different than normal somehow? Knowledge is what you know without doing further research. I never said anything about changing appearence or anything, just adding of a subtype. So after you dropped a fireball on a Human with the [Fire] subtype Well, they arent really a 'normal human' anymore are they? They are, at best, a subspecies of human. The effect could be mistaken for something else, hence the knowledge checks or something else appropriate. I almost never play in games where it is 'core only' Nor do I, but it isnt really material to the point. If you are going to make anything that can be combod or min/maxed to be worse off initially then you are going to make 'everything' worse off initially. Fixing the overpowered combo seems like a much better option to me. Especially as that does not hurt everyone at once, such as those who do not want to min/max that hard or are going for a less stellar combo. Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly but to get Lord of the Uttercold takes 2 feats, tomb tainted is another feat. So that is three feats. 3 feats sounds like a decent pile to me. I could not find Lord of the Uttercold anyway so I could not read its wording. Tomb Tainted allows you to be healed by negative energy as if you were an undead creature. Yep, it does. However, not all negative energy effects heal undead just as not all positive energy effects heal the living. If the Uttercold feat specifically says that the negative energy damage that it inflicts heals undead then that is a rather big step away from the norm and might push the feat itself into 'npc only' or 'not allowed' territory. Would you allow a feat that turned half of a spells damage into 'positive energy damage' that healed living creatures? If not then I would suggest not allowing a feat that did something similar for undead instead. But, just because there are poorly thought out abilities out there does not mean that when comboed together anything that might benefit needs to be nerfed. It could very well be that the combo itself needs to be looked at. As an extreme example, if you had a combo of 6 feats that a fighter could pick up by level 12 that allowed him to make 40 attacks on a full attack that did at least 400 damage each does that mean that the fighter needed to be nerfed?
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 09:59 AM	The Uttercold feat may specifically say it, but that's just a reminder of the standard procedure. Negative energy damage from any source heals undead. It's not some special property of Uttercold. We also have the old standby of Negative Energy Burst, which can be dropped into the middle of a melee to heal undead and harm living creatures (like most PCs). A spell that becomes half-healing? Sure, that's doable, although theme stipulations suggest that it ought to be a divine spell rather than an arcane one.
Scion of Coldshard 03-20-07, 10:01 AM	The Uttercold feat may specifically say it, but that's just a reminder of the standard procedure. Negative energy damage from any source heals undead. Could you find a core source for that please?
Neutronium_Dragon 03-20-07, 10:48 AM	Uh, how about the entry for the undead type in the MM on Page 317? Or more generally, all throughout the core rules you'll see references to the fact that undead are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy, the opposite of living creatures.
Scion of Coldshard 03-20-07, 11:06 AM	Uh, how about the entry for the undead type in the MM on Page 317? If you mean the one that says something like, 'negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures' then I would really have something that actually said what you are saying rather than something that describes a potential other use for certain abilities. The clerics turning can channel negative energy, does it heal undead? The negative energy plane itself is negative energy, but my reference to it does not talk about healing undead. Disrupt undead does positive energy damage, does this spell heal living creatures? Specific effects describe what they do specifically. It is true that there is a lot of reminder text out there as well. If negative energy always heals undead then where does it say this? If there is no general rule then the only time it applies is in cases that state that it does apply and not to anything that might be similar.
Asharlin 03-20-07, 02:10 PM	? The dm will say, 'roll a knowledge(X) check'. The players will. Those succeeding will get information based on their rolls. This is different than normal somehow? Knowledge is what you know without doing further research. Well, they arent really a 'normal human' anymore are they? They are, at best, a subspecies of human. The effect could be mistaken for something else, hence the knowledge checks or something else appropriate. Simply because there are beings who are human but have different 'mechanics' doesn't mean you could identify them when they look like everyone else until you've done something that would cause you to question whether your original assessment is accurate. It's like saying you see two people who look exactly the same in every detail, and knowing the person on the left is smarter than the other one. It just doesn't make sense for it to work that way unless you tested them somehow. Nor do I, but it isnt really material to the point. If you are going to make anything that can be combod or min/maxed to be worse off initially then you are going to make 'everything' worse off initially. Fixing the overpowered combo seems like a much better option to me. Especially as that does not hurt everyone at once, such as those who do not want to min/max that hard or are going for a less stellar combo. 3 feats sounds like a decent pile to me. I could not find Lord of the Uttercold anyway so I could not read its wording. Yep, it does. However, not all negative energy effects heal undead just as not all positive energy effects heal the living. If the Uttercold feat specifically says that the negative energy damage that it inflicts heals undead then that is a rather big step away from the norm and might push the feat itself into 'npc only' or 'not allowed' territory. Would you allow a feat that turned half of a spells damage into 'positive energy damage' that healed living creatures? If not then I would suggest not allowing a feat that did something similar for undead instead. It specifically says that. That depends, do I feel like re-writing about a quarter of the WotC books? Not really, there is too much that can be broken. But, just because there are poorly thought out abilities out there does not mean that when comboed together anything that might benefit needs to be nerfed. It could very well be that the combo itself needs to be looked at. As an extreme example, if you had a combo of 6 feats that a fighter could pick up by level 12 that allowed him to make 40 attacks on a full attack that did at least 400 damage each does that mean that the fighter needed to be nerfed? Not really, ever hear of a Fly spell? =0 I get your point, I just don't agree that its overpowered when balanced out by a LA +1 for the elemental subtype. Just fyi....there are qutie a few negative energy effects which heal undead without going the extra mile and forcing some other thing on you.
Scion of Coldshard 03-20-07, 03:32 PM	Simply because there are beings who are human but have different 'mechanics' doesn't mean you could identify them when they look like everyone else until you've done something that would cause you to question whether your original assessment is accurate. It's like saying you see two people who look exactly the same in every detail, and knowing the person on the left is smarter than the other one. It just doesn't make sense for it to work that way unless you tested them somehow. You are the dm so run it however you like. If you wish to treat the ability as supernatural and declare there to be no physical signs that is you perogative of course. I would not expect people to be happy that their skills are rendered useless though. How many other creatures are said to be too similar to some other creature so you cannot tell the difference, no matter what your training is? There are many subtle signs for what someone is capable of. The way they look, the way they move, the color of their eyes, how they breathe, on and on.. For someone with some appropriate knowledge the signs would be there if they know how to look. Of course someone could attempt to disguise these signs, but that is another skill use with a different skill check. It specifically says that. Uttercold specifically says that it heals undead? Bad feat. Most of the time this would be a 'dm wins rockzorrz!' feat more than anything else. Seeing something like this would make me assume that I could get a similar feat to heal all of my living buddies. If the dm thought that the version to heal living people was overpowered then I would have to ask why the other is not similarly overpowered. That depends, do I feel like re-writing about a quarter of the WotC books? Not really, there is too much that can be broken. So your choice is to break a small amount of things so that you do not have to worry about anything else? That certainly saves time for you, but what about for any players that want to play any combos except for the incredibly strong/normally broken ones? You have just reduced the power of normal combos to being weak and/or useless. If you then have to spend time beefing up the other choices you have not really saved yourself any time at all. If you do nothing to help these then the only characters who will have a chance are those which are specifically tailored to be incredibly powerful. Personally, I would change the overpowered combos. I find the amount of interesting combos already outweigh the overpowered ones anyway so it is less work overall. Not really, ever hear of a Fly spell? I dont recall saying melee. Perhaps any miss chance is also negated for that matter. who knows? Just the part I put up sounds pretty broken to me. LA +1 just for an elemental subtype is a massive hit to power level. If no one minds being weak compared to a character of the same level as they effectively are then more power to them. But with the LA if a character wants to be as effective as someone without the LA then they are forced to min/max that ability as much as possible, going to whatever lengths are necissary to pull out every last bit of benefit from it. Typically an elemental subtype means that you can ignore one thing while being very worried about another. If you choose fire that is nice for when people start tossing around fireballs, of course when they move past that point you will rarely see the benefit. Whereas people might choose to use cold on you just because you have the added weakness to it and it definately adds some extra hurt there! Perhaps instead, as a side option, you could make this race a subset of humans that trades in their favored class: any for some other class based on where they come from and give them an extra skill known. This skill would grant them energy resistance appropriate for their subset of human type for each rank in it. That way there will occasionally be 'runts' who for some reason do not have ranks in it, possibly made outcast because of it, and it could be a point of pride in some tribes.. whoever can withstand the most punishment is the leader. If you like you could even add in the weakness. For every 5 points you take an extra damage whenever effected by something of the opposite energy type. Or something similar, who knows? At least it would be interesting. [QUOTE=Asharlin;11834097]Just fyi....there are qutie a few negative energy effects which heal undead without going the extra mile and forcing some other thing on you. There are many negative energy effects that heal undead yes, and they say so. There are also many negative energy effects that do not heal undead, because they do not say that they do.
Asharlin 03-21-07, 02:23 AM	I think neither of us is going to agree with the other. =0 And I never said I was the DM...
mythSSK 03-21-07, 08:07 AM	Negative energy effects do not necessarily heal undead. Negative energy damage does heal undead.
Asharlin 03-21-07, 08:39 AM	It's a moot point either way in this case...the feat specifically says it heals the undead.