Would giveing half-dragons an elemental vulnerability be enough to drop the LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Would giveing half-dragons an elemental vulnerability be enough to drop the LA? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DX2052
10-11-07, 01:05 PM (for the ones where it would apply)
AtsuiShoto
10-11-07, 06:14 PM Eliminate the LA? HECK NO.

Reduce the LA? Maybe. It would depend on the particulars of the elemental vulnerability. Perhaps a x2 multiplier for all elemental damage other than the specific draconic element (fire for red, cold for blue, etc) would drop the LA by -1. Call it harsh, but remember the staggering list of abilities granted by the Draconic template.
DX2052
10-11-07, 11:17 PM Eliminate the LA? HECK NO.

Reduce the LA? Maybe. It would depend on the particulars of the elemental vulnerability. Perhaps a x2 multiplier for all elemental damage other than the specific draconic element (fire for red, cold for blue, etc) would drop the LA by -1. Call it harsh, but remember the staggering list of abilities granted by the Draconic template.

I meant the 2nd.
StevenO
10-11-07, 11:38 PM I'd say no.

For one thing it is a little hard to apply evenly to all half-dragon types as not all dragons are vulnerable to an energy form. Secondly, an intelligent creature should recognize its vulnerability and take steps to minimize or eliminate it.
imakuni67
10-12-07, 09:49 AM I'd have to say no as well, as not all dragons have immunity to elements. Like if you were a half-styx dragon would have immunity to disease but vulnerability to....teddy bears?
zeratulcraft
10-12-07, 10:10 AM Or to poison! Or non-styx rivers.
runestar
10-12-07, 10:12 AM It might count for something, but I doubt it would suffice in dropping LA by 1 whole point. Maybe introduce it in tandem with nerfing some other stats...
The_Shaman
10-12-07, 10:13 AM I think the current half-dragon template might be a bit overpriced at +3 anyway (just my opinion, mind you), so I can imagine that dropping the immunity or making it into resistance (10) or bonus to saves (+4 for example) where applicable can make it a decent +2. It would be a strong +2, certainly, but not incredible.
Kadasbrass
10-12-07, 10:43 AM Adding the vulnerability really isn't enough to drop by the LA by one. What you could do is drop the "wings if large" clause.

For an LA of 3 your getting +8 str +2 con int cha, +4 natural armor, immune to energy sleep and paralysis, darkvisison and lowlight vision, an bite attack (since assuming your claws will be busy with weapons and or shields) and immunity to all "Humanoid only" spells.

You also get a breath weapon ontop of that, but usable only once per day (there is the feat in RotD that makes it 1d4 rounds).

Wings were set to large creatures since only creatures with LA were larger then medium size, so the template in effect gave more to already LA creatures since the new higher LA wouldn't really be worth the benefits on creature A and template B since the benefits should increase expanditionally as the LA increases.
runestar
10-12-07, 12:40 PM Just the stat bonuses alone (+8str, +2con/int/cha, +4NA) is easily worth LA+2 on its own.

You are left with natural attacks, variable immunity and dragon traits possibly making up for the remaining LA+1.

What you could do is drop the "wings if large" clause.

You aren't going to be getting them anyways unless you are large, so I would probably not allow it for medium or smaller PCs. Likewise, I believe that it was not factored into the LA of the template (though it might have been for the cr).:P
Kadasbrass
10-12-07, 02:57 PM I mean the "if large" only part, as in wings no matter what if adding vulnerability.
AtsuiShoto
10-12-07, 06:42 PM For one thing it is a little hard to apply evenly to all half-dragon types as not all dragons are vulnerable to an energy form. Secondly, an intelligent creature should recognize its vulnerability and take steps to minimize or eliminate it. Well now, let's assume for a moment that some campaigns don't bother to include a different race of dragons for every possible adjective in the English dictionary. All of the basic chromatic and metallic dragons do indeed have elemental affinities. I think that a vulnerability as broad-sweeping as to include every element BUT the elemental affinity would be sufficiently difficult to "cover" that a whole -1 to LA would be appropriate.
Kesthol
10-13-07, 11:42 PM To the OP (and subsequent supporters:)

NO, NO, NO!

Giving a Half-Black Dragon vulnerability to lightning (for example) would be irrational unless all dragons of the appropriate type had the same vulnerability. Even then, I'm not sure you have a strong enough case to nerf the LA to +2 (nor is there a strong case to keep it at +3, for that matter, either). The idea of giving all half-dragons wings as well as a (or, "an additonal") vulnerability might give a good argument for LA +3 (but it is still on the weak side).

If you want to reduce the Half-Dragon LA, try out the Draconic racial progression in the Half-Dragon/Draconic chapter of Races of the Dragon. It would not be hard to houserule that you could stop the progression at level 1 or 2 (and also rule that you could take it up later if you want).
AtsuiShoto
10-14-07, 11:32 AM To the OP (and subsequent supporters):

NO, NO, NO! I appreciate that you followed with a straight-forward, succinct, and well-reasoned explanation, but that level of negativity implies that all other opinions are inherently very wrong. Try to open up to possibilities.

Now, mechanically I think a broad-spectrum elemental vulnerability would be quite appropriate for reducing the need for a level adjustment. Since the Hald-Dragon is a fairly weak +3 template, perhaps the vulnerability would even drop it to +2.

Thematically, I actually think cross-breeding of two wildly different species, if possible at all, should sometimes have unexpected results. A world in which copulating with a creature 4 size categories larger than you yields something as bland as a "diluted" set of of abilities doesn't ALWAYS need to be the case. Perhaps you could end up producing offspring with a 200lb body fitted with ungainly and debilitating 50lb horns on its head! Now THAT is fantastic.
Finfreeze
10-14-07, 10:00 PM Perhaps. It's not like the half-dragon is that strong for its ECL. But I'd rather just give them wings for free, fix their stupid breath weapon, and keep them at LA +3.
phoatu
10-17-07, 05:42 PM I appreciate that you followed with a straight-forward, succinct, and well-reasoned explanation, but that level of negativity implies that all other opinions are inherently very wrong. Try to open up to possibilities.

Now, mechanically I think a broad-spectrum elemental vulnerability would be quite appropriate for reducing the need for a level adjustment. Since the Hald-Dragon is a fairly weak +3 template, perhaps the vulnerability would even drop it to +2.

Thematically, I actually think cross-breeding of two wildly different species, if possible at all, should sometimes have unexpected results. A world in which copulating with a creature 4 size categories larger than you yields something as bland as a "diluted" set of of abilities doesn't ALWAYS need to be the case. Perhaps you could end up producing offspring with a 200lb body fitted with ungainly and debilitating 50lb horns on its head! Now THAT is fantastic.

Umm... to that last paragraph, while it does make some sense, you forget 3 things: One: dragons have the ability to assume alternate forms. Two: The genes assumed-ly fuse in even parts, kinda like how were-creatures aren't disproportionate in their hybrid form. Third: Draconic blood comes from pure-blooded creatures. When it mixes with the blood of other creatures, it only gets diluted, no crazy mutations happen (again, this is assumed, but it also makes just as much sense as half of anything in the game).

Now, for my two-cents. I agree with the fact that the LA+3 is a bit much for the template, so much so that adding vulnerability might just be enough to drop it to 2 instead of 3. I also think that adding in the wings would even out the LA truly, but what someone said earlier about how that was probably factored in the creature's CR instead of the LA has me thinking a bit differently (even though i still like wings XD). Something that -should- be done, not really affecting the LA too much, would be to adjust the breath weapon. It's far too overpowered at early levels, and a joke at later levels. There are more than one template which have a supernatural ability which scales to level; the Zern's warping blast is a prime example. If the breath weapon was scaled to level, half the people saying 'this template is overpowered' would lose their argument, and it would help bolster the LA +3.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DX2052 10-11-07, 01:05 PM	(for the ones where it would apply)
AtsuiShoto 10-11-07, 06:14 PM	Eliminate the LA? HECK NO. Reduce the LA? Maybe. It would depend on the particulars of the elemental vulnerability. Perhaps a x2 multiplier for all elemental damage other than the specific draconic element (fire for red, cold for blue, etc) would drop the LA by -1. Call it harsh, but remember the staggering list of abilities granted by the Draconic template.
DX2052 10-11-07, 11:17 PM	Eliminate the LA? HECK NO. Reduce the LA? Maybe. It would depend on the particulars of the elemental vulnerability. Perhaps a x2 multiplier for all elemental damage other than the specific draconic element (fire for red, cold for blue, etc) would drop the LA by -1. Call it harsh, but remember the staggering list of abilities granted by the Draconic template. I meant the 2nd.
StevenO 10-11-07, 11:38 PM	I'd say no. For one thing it is a little hard to apply evenly to all half-dragon types as not all dragons are vulnerable to an energy form. Secondly, an intelligent creature should recognize its vulnerability and take steps to minimize or eliminate it.
imakuni67 10-12-07, 09:49 AM	I'd have to say no as well, as not all dragons have immunity to elements. Like if you were a half-styx dragon would have immunity to disease but vulnerability to....teddy bears?
zeratulcraft 10-12-07, 10:10 AM	Or to poison! Or non-styx rivers.
runestar 10-12-07, 10:12 AM	It might count for something, but I doubt it would suffice in dropping LA by 1 whole point. Maybe introduce it in tandem with nerfing some other stats...
The_Shaman 10-12-07, 10:13 AM	I think the current half-dragon template might be a bit overpriced at +3 anyway (just my opinion, mind you), so I can imagine that dropping the immunity or making it into resistance (10) or bonus to saves (+4 for example) where applicable can make it a decent +2. It would be a strong +2, certainly, but not incredible.
Kadasbrass 10-12-07, 10:43 AM	Adding the vulnerability really isn't enough to drop by the LA by one. What you could do is drop the "wings if large" clause. For an LA of 3 your getting +8 str +2 con int cha, +4 natural armor, immune to energy sleep and paralysis, darkvisison and lowlight vision, an bite attack (since assuming your claws will be busy with weapons and or shields) and immunity to all "Humanoid only" spells. You also get a breath weapon ontop of that, but usable only once per day (there is the feat in RotD that makes it 1d4 rounds). Wings were set to large creatures since only creatures with LA were larger then medium size, so the template in effect gave more to already LA creatures since the new higher LA wouldn't really be worth the benefits on creature A and template B since the benefits should increase expanditionally as the LA increases.
runestar 10-12-07, 12:40 PM	Just the stat bonuses alone (+8str, +2con/int/cha, +4NA) is easily worth LA+2 on its own. You are left with natural attacks, variable immunity and dragon traits possibly making up for the remaining LA+1. What you could do is drop the "wings if large" clause. You aren't going to be getting them anyways unless you are large, so I would probably not allow it for medium or smaller PCs. Likewise, I believe that it was not factored into the LA of the template (though it might have been for the cr).:P
Kadasbrass 10-12-07, 02:57 PM	I mean the "if large" only part, as in wings no matter what if adding vulnerability.
AtsuiShoto 10-12-07, 06:42 PM	For one thing it is a little hard to apply evenly to all half-dragon types as not all dragons are vulnerable to an energy form. Secondly, an intelligent creature should recognize its vulnerability and take steps to minimize or eliminate it. Well now, let's assume for a moment that some campaigns don't bother to include a different race of dragons for every possible adjective in the English dictionary. All of the basic chromatic and metallic dragons do indeed have elemental affinities. I think that a vulnerability as broad-sweeping as to include every element BUT the elemental affinity would be sufficiently difficult to "cover" that a whole -1 to LA would be appropriate.
Kesthol 10-13-07, 11:42 PM	To the OP (and subsequent supporters:) NO, NO, NO! Giving a Half-Black Dragon vulnerability to lightning (for example) would be irrational unless all dragons of the appropriate type had the same vulnerability. Even then, I'm not sure you have a strong enough case to nerf the LA to +2 (nor is there a strong case to keep it at +3, for that matter, either). The idea of giving all half-dragons wings as well as a (or, "an additonal") vulnerability might give a good argument for LA +3 (but it is still on the weak side). If you want to reduce the Half-Dragon LA, try out the Draconic racial progression in the Half-Dragon/Draconic chapter of Races of the Dragon. It would not be hard to houserule that you could stop the progression at level 1 or 2 (and also rule that you could take it up later if you want).
AtsuiShoto 10-14-07, 11:32 AM	To the OP (and subsequent supporters): NO, NO, NO! I appreciate that you followed with a straight-forward, succinct, and well-reasoned explanation, but that level of negativity implies that all other opinions are inherently very wrong. Try to open up to possibilities. Now, mechanically I think a broad-spectrum elemental vulnerability would be quite appropriate for reducing the need for a level adjustment. Since the Hald-Dragon is a fairly weak +3 template, perhaps the vulnerability would even drop it to +2. Thematically, I actually think cross-breeding of two wildly different species, if possible at all, should sometimes have unexpected results. A world in which copulating with a creature 4 size categories larger than you yields something as bland as a "diluted" set of of abilities doesn't ALWAYS need to be the case. Perhaps you could end up producing offspring with a 200lb body fitted with ungainly and debilitating 50lb horns on its head! Now THAT is fantastic.
Finfreeze 10-14-07, 10:00 PM	Perhaps. It's not like the half-dragon is that strong for its ECL. But I'd rather just give them wings for free, fix their stupid breath weapon, and keep them at LA +3.
phoatu 10-17-07, 05:42 PM	I appreciate that you followed with a straight-forward, succinct, and well-reasoned explanation, but that level of negativity implies that all other opinions are inherently very wrong. Try to open up to possibilities. Now, mechanically I think a broad-spectrum elemental vulnerability would be quite appropriate for reducing the need for a level adjustment. Since the Hald-Dragon is a fairly weak +3 template, perhaps the vulnerability would even drop it to +2. Thematically, I actually think cross-breeding of two wildly different species, if possible at all, should sometimes have unexpected results. A world in which copulating with a creature 4 size categories larger than you yields something as bland as a "diluted" set of of abilities doesn't ALWAYS need to be the case. Perhaps you could end up producing offspring with a 200lb body fitted with ungainly and debilitating 50lb horns on its head! Now THAT is fantastic. Umm... to that last paragraph, while it does make some sense, you forget 3 things: One: dragons have the ability to assume alternate forms. Two: The genes assumed-ly fuse in even parts, kinda like how were-creatures aren't disproportionate in their hybrid form. Third: Draconic blood comes from pure-blooded creatures. When it mixes with the blood of other creatures, it only gets diluted, no crazy mutations happen (again, this is assumed, but it also makes just as much sense as half of anything in the game). Now, for my two-cents. I agree with the fact that the LA+3 is a bit much for the template, so much so that adding vulnerability might just be enough to drop it to 2 instead of 3. I also think that adding in the wings would even out the LA truly, but what someone said earlier about how that was probably factored in the creature's CR instead of the LA has me thinking a bit differently (even though i still like wings XD). Something that -should- be done, not really affecting the LA too much, would be to adjust the breath weapon. It's far too overpowered at early levels, and a joke at later levels. There are more than one template which have a supernatural ability which scales to level; the Zern's warping blast is a prime example. If the breath weapon was scaled to level, half the people saying 'this template is overpowered' would lose their argument, and it would help bolster the LA +3.