Wyrmen from Dragon #352 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Wyrmen from Dragon #352 [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Thief_of_Hope
06-18-07, 11:37 AM All right, so I was looking through the monsters of Bas-Lag article, and I was wondering if anyone knew what sort of LA the wyrmen would have, since they have none listed, but seem like they would be fun to play. It doesn't seem as if they would be gamebreaking, and really their only bonus seems to be their ability to fly. Is there anyone who has access to that article that is knowledgeable in race balance and LA?

I THINK the stats for the race for player characters would be as follows (someone please tell me if this gives too much info on them and violates the board's rules) :

- +2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha
- Small size
- +3 Natural Armor
- Natural Weapon: Bite (1d3)
- Special Qualities: Aerial Tumble (Described in the original article)
- +4 racial bonus on Tumble skill checks.
- Land speed 10 feet, fly speed 30 feet (poor)

I won't include favored class, creature type, the Aerial Tumble description, languages, or any of that other jazz, since with just what I listed there I don't think I'm violating code of conduct, since you can't just pick this up and play it without the other information.

Thanks in advance for any and all help!
Knute
06-18-07, 11:11 PM They are a brutally poor race for player characters. I'd take one as a follower or familiar but with no hands they wouldn't pull their weight in a party.

I do think they'd be fun.

K
Mentar
06-19-07, 01:05 AM Based on various sources flight is a minimum of +2 LA, in some cases +4 LA.
Lack of hands does not have a negative for level adjustment, but it would make casting anything with somatic components impossible.
Don't have the Dragon in question so I don't know if they have prehensile feet or something for spell casting and weapon use.
Check Savage Species for a breakdown of how to assign LA to monsters. (Though I do wish they would do an update as many parts are clearly 3.0.)
Knute
06-19-07, 02:25 AM Of course lack of hands should have some sort of LA adjustment. Prehensile feat can't exactly do much if they are also holding the character up so under typical conditions the character would be almost useless.

Perhaps you would do better to take the ideas that that the Myrmen inspire in your head and build a new race from there. Work with generally suggested guidelines and without worrying about stepping on the Dragon's copyright.

Start with a new name.

Knute
Thief_of_Hope
06-20-07, 11:31 AM Their feet do act as hands, so they could potentially be using somatic components, and I imagine holding a dagger while they backstab someone (from the air), or swooping down and picking a pocket. It does seem like a drawback to have to either be in the air or sitting down to use both of your "hands", but it's challenges like that which make unique races fun.

"Oh man, Weeble's sitting down, you guys! He must be gearing up for one serious spell!"

:P

Because, of course, Weeble might have chosen to apply Still Spell to all of his spells except for his highest level ones. Yeah. :P
Thief_of_Hope
06-22-07, 01:47 AM All right, fine, if no one wants to hazard an LA, I'll start the party and see if anyone argues.

Pros:

Fly speed 30
+2 Con
+3 Natural Armor
+4 Tumble
Aerial Tumble
Natural Bite Attack

Cons:

-4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha
LOUSY land speed (when the dwarf is outrunning you, you know there's a problem)

So, their total bonus to AC, when their Small size is taken into account, is a +4 bonus. +4 tumble is okay, but not game breaking. Aerial tumble is interesting, but again nothing great. The con bonus is easily outweighed by the all around bad mental scores. The bite attack isn't that great at 1d3 damage. Also considered is the fact that with their fly speed being the average land speed, and their land speed being one-third that, they are almost certainly going to need to fly to be of any use, which may present problems in buildings, dungeon, even thick forests.

I really can't seem to decide between LA +1 or LA +0. In my mind, the classes that might benefit most from being airborne are those that can attack from a range. Since any sort of bow would likely be impossible to draw while flying, especially with the odd build of the Wyrmen, that leaves spells as their only option for long range attack. However, as we can easily see from the above ability score adjustments, wyrmen would be sub-par at best in any sort of spellcasting class. Thus I might feel justified in labeling them a LA +0 race.

Now, with all of that, is there anyone out there who would like to offer their own view on an appropriate LA for the Wyrmen? Any arguments or agreements for my above justifications? Discussion! I crave discussion!
Mentar
06-22-07, 02:25 AM Ok, using SS could actually be a bad thing here.
LA
Small size: -1
Natural armor: +1LA
Fly speed: +1LA
Natural weapons: +0 (does not have multiple attacks)
Skills and feats: +1LA

The next step is the acid test. According to this it's a LA +2 creature.
Please note: There is no negative LA for land speed under standard (ie 20 for small).

Lack of hands does not have a LA assigned, but give it -1LA for a total of +1LA and give it a test. If it's stronger then a PHB race put it back up to +2LA. If it's slightly weaker, leave it be, if it's significantly weaker drop it down to +0LA.

Remember, the lack of hands is one of these things you really can't just run a combat to determine the effects of. You will probably have to run at least 3 adventures to determine just how much that and the movement speed will effect the game and the character.
Thief_of_Hope
06-24-07, 11:41 AM Is there no drop in the LA due to the overall negative ability score adjustments?
Grizzled Gryphon
06-24-07, 01:15 PM Speaking of Bows, there is always the foot bow of the Raptorans. I don't know the physiology of the creature, but that might work.
Knute
06-24-07, 03:04 PM Knutelings
was Wyrmen from Dragon #352

- +2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha
- Small size
- +3 Natural Armor
- Natural Weapon: Bite (1d3)
- Special Qualities: Aerial Tumble (Described in the original article)
- +4 racial bonus on Tumble skill checks.
- Land speed 10 feet, fly speed 30 feet (poor)

I'd simply take out the Aerial Tumble and call it 0LA. You can offer it as a racial feat.

Flight is good - but they basically cant walk. -I'd bump it to average as it is their primary mobility and again to 'good' at level 3.
Nat Armor is Great - but they can't wear or carry anything of any weight so its not likely to stack with much.
Small size is great for a spellcaster but lousy for anything else. IMHO They would have a tiny weight allowance 1/2 since they'd have to be 'light' to fly with any stamina. They might be small, but I'd insist they carry weight as if they were tiny. Both because they are built for flying and because their hands\feet are too delicate\agile.

If they suffer too much give them an extra feat later on.

Don't let the templates etc... overwhelm the idea. They have two limbs and a set of wings. Unless they become vampires or cast spells from a distance in the air they are not going to be that much of a threat. With a -4 to INT & WIS & -2 Char they're not going to be great spellcasters.

I believe the foot bow is held in the feet and pulled with Raptoran Hands - so this would be out. Probably the best weapon for these folks would simply be bombs of some sort.

I don't think they'd be capable of much while sitting down as they would still need at least one leg for balance with those wings.

**

Were I your DM I might allow you to modify the above in such a manner. 0LA and as a 1st level feat (and only at first level) You could choose between +2 to wisdom or intelligence (the total negative would only be -2) or aerial tumble. My justification would be that some rare examples of this race are more thoughtful and in tune but less prone to acrobatics. Probably give each racial variant a distinctive mark or something.

I'd also rename the critter :). Aint they knute!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Thief_of_Hope 06-18-07, 11:37 AM	All right, so I was looking through the monsters of Bas-Lag article, and I was wondering if anyone knew what sort of LA the wyrmen would have, since they have none listed, but seem like they would be fun to play. It doesn't seem as if they would be gamebreaking, and really their only bonus seems to be their ability to fly. Is there anyone who has access to that article that is knowledgeable in race balance and LA? I THINK the stats for the race for player characters would be as follows (someone please tell me if this gives too much info on them and violates the board's rules) : - +2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha - Small size - +3 Natural Armor - Natural Weapon: Bite (1d3) - Special Qualities: Aerial Tumble (Described in the original article) - +4 racial bonus on Tumble skill checks. - Land speed 10 feet, fly speed 30 feet (poor) I won't include favored class, creature type, the Aerial Tumble description, languages, or any of that other jazz, since with just what I listed there I don't think I'm violating code of conduct, since you can't just pick this up and play it without the other information. Thanks in advance for any and all help!
Knute 06-18-07, 11:11 PM	They are a brutally poor race for player characters. I'd take one as a follower or familiar but with no hands they wouldn't pull their weight in a party. I do think they'd be fun. K
Mentar 06-19-07, 01:05 AM	Based on various sources flight is a minimum of +2 LA, in some cases +4 LA. Lack of hands does not have a negative for level adjustment, but it would make casting anything with somatic components impossible. Don't have the Dragon in question so I don't know if they have prehensile feet or something for spell casting and weapon use. Check Savage Species for a breakdown of how to assign LA to monsters. (Though I do wish they would do an update as many parts are clearly 3.0.)
Knute 06-19-07, 02:25 AM	Of course lack of hands should have some sort of LA adjustment. Prehensile feat can't exactly do much if they are also holding the character up so under typical conditions the character would be almost useless. Perhaps you would do better to take the ideas that that the Myrmen inspire in your head and build a new race from there. Work with generally suggested guidelines and without worrying about stepping on the Dragon's copyright. Start with a new name. Knute
Thief_of_Hope 06-20-07, 11:31 AM	Their feet do act as hands, so they could potentially be using somatic components, and I imagine holding a dagger while they backstab someone (from the air), or swooping down and picking a pocket. It does seem like a drawback to have to either be in the air or sitting down to use both of your "hands", but it's challenges like that which make unique races fun. "Oh man, Weeble's sitting down, you guys! He must be gearing up for one serious spell!" :P Because, of course, Weeble might have chosen to apply Still Spell to all of his spells except for his highest level ones. Yeah. :P
Thief_of_Hope 06-22-07, 01:47 AM	All right, fine, if no one wants to hazard an LA, I'll start the party and see if anyone argues. Pros: Fly speed 30 +2 Con +3 Natural Armor +4 Tumble Aerial Tumble Natural Bite Attack Cons: -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha LOUSY land speed (when the dwarf is outrunning you, you know there's a problem) So, their total bonus to AC, when their Small size is taken into account, is a +4 bonus. +4 tumble is okay, but not game breaking. Aerial tumble is interesting, but again nothing great. The con bonus is easily outweighed by the all around bad mental scores. The bite attack isn't that great at 1d3 damage. Also considered is the fact that with their fly speed being the average land speed, and their land speed being one-third that, they are almost certainly going to need to fly to be of any use, which may present problems in buildings, dungeon, even thick forests. I really can't seem to decide between LA +1 or LA +0. In my mind, the classes that might benefit most from being airborne are those that can attack from a range. Since any sort of bow would likely be impossible to draw while flying, especially with the odd build of the Wyrmen, that leaves spells as their only option for long range attack. However, as we can easily see from the above ability score adjustments, wyrmen would be sub-par at best in any sort of spellcasting class. Thus I might feel justified in labeling them a LA +0 race. Now, with all of that, is there anyone out there who would like to offer their own view on an appropriate LA for the Wyrmen? Any arguments or agreements for my above justifications? Discussion! I crave discussion!
Mentar 06-22-07, 02:25 AM	Ok, using SS could actually be a bad thing here. LA Small size: -1 Natural armor: +1LA Fly speed: +1LA Natural weapons: +0 (does not have multiple attacks) Skills and feats: +1LA The next step is the acid test. According to this it's a LA +2 creature. Please note: There is no negative LA for land speed under standard (ie 20 for small). Lack of hands does not have a LA assigned, but give it -1LA for a total of +1LA and give it a test. If it's stronger then a PHB race put it back up to +2LA. If it's slightly weaker, leave it be, if it's significantly weaker drop it down to +0LA. Remember, the lack of hands is one of these things you really can't just run a combat to determine the effects of. You will probably have to run at least 3 adventures to determine just how much that and the movement speed will effect the game and the character.
Thief_of_Hope 06-24-07, 11:41 AM	Is there no drop in the LA due to the overall negative ability score adjustments?
Grizzled Gryphon 06-24-07, 01:15 PM	Speaking of Bows, there is always the foot bow of the Raptorans. I don't know the physiology of the creature, but that might work.
Knute 06-24-07, 03:04 PM	Knutelings was Wyrmen from Dragon #352 - +2 Con, -4 Int, -4 Wis, -2 Cha - Small size - +3 Natural Armor - Natural Weapon: Bite (1d3) - Special Qualities: Aerial Tumble (Described in the original article) - +4 racial bonus on Tumble skill checks. - Land speed 10 feet, fly speed 30 feet (poor) I'd simply take out the Aerial Tumble and call it 0LA. You can offer it as a racial feat. Flight is good - but they basically cant walk. -I'd bump it to average as it is their primary mobility and again to 'good' at level 3. Nat Armor is Great - but they can't wear or carry anything of any weight so its not likely to stack with much. Small size is great for a spellcaster but lousy for anything else. IMHO They would have a tiny weight allowance 1/2 since they'd have to be 'light' to fly with any stamina. They might be small, but I'd insist they carry weight as if they were tiny. Both because they are built for flying and because their hands\feet are too delicate\agile. If they suffer too much give them an extra feat later on. Don't let the templates etc... overwhelm the idea. They have two limbs and a set of wings. Unless they become vampires or cast spells from a distance in the air they are not going to be that much of a threat. With a -4 to INT & WIS & -2 Char they're not going to be great spellcasters. I believe the foot bow is held in the feet and pulled with Raptoran Hands - so this would be out. Probably the best weapon for these folks would simply be bombs of some sort. I don't think they'd be capable of much while sitting down as they would still need at least one leg for balance with those wings. ** Were I your DM I might allow you to modify the above in such a manner. 0LA and as a 1st level feat (and only at first level) You could choose between +2 to wisdom or intelligence (the total negative would only be -2) or aerial tumble. My justification would be that some rare examples of this race are more thoughtful and in tune but less prone to acrobatics. Probably give each racial variant a distinctive mark or something. I'd also rename the critter :). Aint they knute!