Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-11-06, 07:20 AM	I've seen this custom race evaluation system mentioned a few times, and I'm curious about it. Is there a standardized chart that could be set down for anyone to use? If it's not standardized system anyone could use and apply directly, how would you break down these races in feature points? Humans Hill (PHB standard) Dwarves High (PHB standard) Elves Grugach (wild elves) Half-Elves Gnomes Half-Orcs Orcs Halflings Goblins Kobolds ---------------------------------------EDIT--------------------------------------- Everything above this line is the original post. I'm adding this extra bit just to help out those with limited patience or time who won't/can't read through the currently 250+ post thread to get to where we are now. (:mymy: 9 pages and still growing... this thread scares me sometimes.) Sorry I haven't been answering requests lately. I mentioned a couple pages ago that some RL events are culminating... basically within the next week. I had hoped to postpone releasing a written document until I had time to write a written document. That way I could explain the reasoning behind the numbers, making discussion and tweaking into a smoother process. At this point, however, it doesn't look like the community at large will wait that long. I have hosted the an early release of the feature point charts here (http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf). Please do not contact me if the document is unavailable due to bandwidth limitations. Sorry it isn't neatly organized or adequately explained, but as I said, I haven't had an opportunity to clean it up, write explanations, verify certain balance aspects, or even look for other evaluated features that could have been included in the charts. Feel free to comment on whether specific values seem appropriate.
Orancateb 07-11-06, 08:33 AM	I know what you are talking about and I want to see it to. :D I hope he will see this thread!
YabaTheWhat 07-11-06, 10:14 AM	I'm working on writing up a standardized document. The system, when finished, will be viable for creatures of any ECL up to 19. It will, of course, require extensive review once it reaches that stage of development, which I hope the members here will provide. In the meantime, I have enough data assembled to review most races for ECL = CL balance. Let's see what I can do for the core races. HUMANS • Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Human base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • 1 extra feat at 1st level. [6 FP] • 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. [3.5 FP] • Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill. • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count. [0.5 FP] Total = 10 FP The human feat option is worth as much as the most powerful feat they can buy with it. The four skill points at 1st level are worth 2FP (1/2 FP each), just like skill bonuses. The remaining 1 point every 2 levels are worth more than 1 FP combined, but less than 2, because the value of a feature is divided by 2 for every 2 levels the race must wait to achieve it. (My original posted version didn't cover the reduction from delay.) DWARVES • +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. [0 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). [-2 FP] • Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] • Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. [1.5 FP] • Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. [1 FP] • Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. [4 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids. [1 FP] • +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. [0.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. [0.5 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon. • Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing Total = 12.5 FP Dwarven base land speed is reduced by 10 for their size. While this would normally be worth -3 FP, the reduction is only partial, since they do not suffer the additional 1-square loss from heavy armor. The dwarf's stonecunning awards conditional skill bonuses, which are worth half as much as normal skill bonuses because they are likely to be useful only part of the time (as opposed to most of the time or once in a purplish-tangerine moon). However, the ability to automatically search for secret doors is worth something on its own. Their overall ability scores are balanced, with no single ability bonus above +2. Personally I would have dropped the conditional bonuses, which sound like they should be part of the Favored Enemy class feature rather than racial traits. ELVES • +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. [0 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Elf base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Immunity to magic sleep effects [3 FP], and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. [2 FP] • Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. [2 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks [3 FP]. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. [1 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf ’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] Total = 12 FP Simple weapon proficiencies are only worth 1 FP per 4 weapons. Martial weapon proficiencies are worth 1 FP per 2 weapons. Exotic weapon proficiencies are worth 1 FP per weapon. Weapon familiarity is worth 1 FP per 2 weapons. Despite the obvious value of an immunity, sleep is such a narrow field that it is only worth 3 FP. Note that the more broad a field a save bonus or an immunity covers, the more it is worth. An unconditional +1 bonus to any one save (fort/ref/will) is worth 2 FP. GNOMES • +2 Constitution, –2 Strength. [0 FP] • Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. [0 FP] • Gnome base land speed is 20 feet. [0 FP] • Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. [0.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. [1 FP] • Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. [0.5 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids. [1 FP] • +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. [0.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. [0.5 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description. • Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals [2 FP] (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation [6 FP]. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level. • Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Total = 14 Here we have our first example of a size change. For the transition between small and medium, the bonuses and penalties are considered balanced. Smaller humanoids take a speed penalty and deal less damage, but have a better attack bonus and better AC. They can carry less, and get a bonus to hide. The transition to Large size without the benefit of increased reach is also considered balanced. Any size smaller than Small is worth FP due to compounding benefits. Anything which grants the benefits of a size change without the drawbacks is worth FP for each benefit awarded. Reach beyond 5 ft (1 square) awards FP on its own. Generally, zero-level spells are worth 2 FP per use per day, and first-level spells are worth 6 FP per use per day. However, the gnome's first-level spell has conditions attached, making it less useful than the normal spell. Its value has been reduced proportionately. Note that the gnomes significantly exceed the reccommended 10-12 FP. They are still within range for ECL = CL. Despite this, many people still consider them underpowered. The reason is that too many of their benefits are either under-utilized, or are conditional and simply do not come into play. If used correctly in a roleplaying setting, their value becomes more obvious. HALF-ELVES • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects [3 FP], and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. [2 FP] • Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. [1.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. [2 FP] • Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). [0 FP] • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count. [0.5 FP] Total = 10 FP Not much to say here. Elven blood lets them work magic weapons as an elf, but it also makes them vulnerable to bane weapons as an elf. Unless their blood type is something exotic, it's generally not worth FP. HALF-ORCS • +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. [-3 FP] A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] • Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. [0 FP] Total = 0 FP What happened? The other races thus far have been roughly even, but the half-orc gets royally swearworded. Despite some opinions, strength bonuses (and for that matter mental stat bonuses) of +2 are not overpowered. Every ability score grants its own benefits. If one ability score seems overpowered, that's simply because the classes utilize its benefits more effectively. HALFLINGS • +2 Dexterity, –2 Strength. [0 FP] • Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. [0 FP] • Halfling base land speed is 20 feet. [0 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. [3 FP] • +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. [6 FP] • +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general. [1 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. [1 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass halfling’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] Total = 12 FP Here is the demonstration of an unconditional save bonus. All three saves receive a +1 bonus, for a total of 2x3=6 FP. The attack bonus is conditional, not based on the target, but on the type of weapon. Slings and thrown weapons are generally not the best options for damage (and the halfling already suffers a damage penalty from size), so he only gets a benefit from his attack bonus with a thrown magical weapon or effect. That's it for the PHB races. The half-orc needs explanation, so let's take a look at the orc. Orc Traits (Ex): Orcs possess the following racial traits. — +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma. [3 FP] —An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] —Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. [-1 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Barbarian. Total = 5 FP That helped a little, and it gives us an example of an ability score bonus greater than +2. In addition to earning FP for its overall ability score adjustments, the orc earns FP for having its highest bonus above +2. The +4 strength bonus is worth 6 FP, but its total is worth -3 FP, for a result of 3 FP. Light sensitivity provides a conditional attack penalty, which comes up about a third of the time (above ground daytime). While many core-race groups do the bulk of their fighting during the day, a group of orcs would be heavily prone to using night raids and underground strongholds. How about we pick up the kobold next. It has a few traits worth examining. Kobold characters possess the following racial traits. — –4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. [-6 FP] —Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters. —A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet. [6 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] —Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks. [3 FP] — +1 natural armor bonus. [6 FP] —Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity. [-1 FP] —Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Sorcerer. Total = 11 FP The kobold gets a speed boost and natural armor. Natural armor is worth 6FP per point, as is a deflection bonus. These bonuses do not suffer a maximum (as the dexterity AC bonus), cannot be revoked or negated, and work while flatfooted. While natural armor does not deflect touch attacks, most touch attacks come either from grappling creatures (why more creatures don't grapple I will never understand) and incorporeal creatures. Speed increases are also valuable. While it may not be as obvious on a small creature, where the speed penalty (one of the bigger drawbacks of small size) masks the benefit, try pushing through a medium-size race with a 40 ft base speed some time. To afford its benefits, the kobold takes a major hit to its ability scores. Let's wrap things up with the goblin. Goblin characters possess the following racial traits. — –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma. [-3 FP] —Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters. [0 FP] —A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. [6 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks. [4 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. [0 FP] —Favored Class: Rogue. [0 FP] Total = 10 FP Looks good to me. I'll save this post in text form, since it will probably be gone tomorrow.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-11-06, 10:43 AM	Thanks for taking the time to post all that, Yaba, especially elaborating on why each race gets the numbers it does, rather than just listing the figures. It's definitely a thought-provoking read, and I imagine a lot of thought went into coming up with the system. I think breaking down ability values like this, once expanded, could probably work out well for building savage progressions, to build up power evenly rather than in fits and starts with gaps in between. I look forward to seeing the standardized full version once it's completed, and Godzilla willing, maybe I'll even have the time and opportunities to playtest and review some.
Kobold Stew 07-11-06, 11:53 AM	Mr. theWhat, Thank you for this exposition. It is really quite useful, and it shows the strengths of your system. I've a few observations: 1. I think you underestimate the benefits of martial weapon proficiencies. What elves gain (longsword and longbow) are core weapons (really, the weapons against which all others are balanced), which become avaialable to non-fighter characters. While it proves to mean nothing for fighters, the benefit is huge for those with partial weapon lists. And, when the favoured class (wizard in this case) does not have martial proficiency, there is a further benefit. 2. I think you need to scale the benefit of natural armor. Your discussion of natural armour, while accurate, does not adequately reflect the increased benefit from higher numbers. When you get to ECL 3 in your analyusis, I think this will become apparent comparing gnolls to lizardfolk. 3. Not all skill bonuses are equal. A bonus ot craft or profession of +2 is of a fundamentally smaller order than a bonus to spot or listen. Granted, it is hard to quantify all these things, but certain key skills are given benefits for mechanical advantage (bonuses to move silently, for example), whereas others, I'd suggest, are for flavour (e.g. trapmaking, miner for kobolds), and should be treated (if anything) as you do conditional skills. 4. A penalty to charisma matters less to most characters than a penalty to any other stat. Different games play differently, of course, buty the fact that 90% of the homebrew races placed on these boards have charisma penalties (and offer to balance the race by making the charisma penalty bigger!) in my mind shows this is true. There is no mechanical disadvantage to having a low penalty in most adventuring cirtcumstances, whereas there is for every other stat. I can support this point more fully if you like. 5. I think you undersetimate light sensitivity. Again, different games play differently, but (unless one can easily buy eye-protecting goggles, apparently a common uitem in some campaigns) light sensitivity is a major handicap. 7. I think you overestimate the value of first level spells 1/day (e.g. gnomes). It is not the same value, I'd suggest, as +1 to all saves. There are other factors that need to be considered: unblanced stats need to be refined, I think (otherwise the hobgoblin has only 8 FPs?!) but generally I think your system works. What will be interesting for me is to see how you reckon hit dice: I look forward to your full document when it is ready! It'll also be interesting to see what the break-point is for other LA points (since I doubt that it will be additive: if LA 0 ~ 10-12 FPs, LA +1 < 20-24 FPS, LA +2 < 30-36 FPs, etc.) Eager eyes await! Kobold Stew.
YabaTheWhat 07-11-06, 01:03 PM	Mr. theWhat, Thank you for this exposition. It is really quite useful, and it shows the strengths of your system. I've a few observations: 1. I think you underestimate the benefits of martial weapon proficiencies. What elves gain (longsword and longbow) are core weapons (really, the weapons against which all others are balanced), which become avaialable to non-fighter characters. While it proves to mean nothing for fighters, the benefit is huge for those with partial weapon lists. And, when the favoured class (wizard in this case) does not have martial proficiency, there is a further benefit. And yet, they can gain proficiency with every martial weapon for a single 4FP feat. Maybe martial weapons should be 1FP per weapon, and exotics 2FP per weapon. Then again, I got sick of Bertie Botts Every Flavor Elves a long time ago, and prefer weapon familiarity to weapon proficiency. 2. I think you need to scale the benefit of natural armor. Your discussion of natural armour, while accurate, does not adequately reflect the increased benefit from higher numbers. When you get to ECL 3 in your analyusis, I think this will become apparent comparing gnolls to lizardfolk. Standard lizardfolk have NA+5, worth 30 FP. They have a number of odds and ends as well, probably worth 10-15 FP. Their racial hit dice will be worth FP of their own. They should just about earn their LA+1. 3. Not all skill bonuses are equal. A bonus ot craft or profession of +2 is of a fundamentally smaller order than a bonus to spot or listen. Granted, it is hard to quantify all these things, but certain key skills are given benefits for mechanical advantage (bonuses to move silently, for example), whereas others, I'd suggest, are for flavour (e.g. trapmaking, miner for kobolds), and should be treated (if anything) as you do conditional skills. I plan to have skill groups for craft (any), knowledge (any), profession (any), and perform (any). These groups will be worth the same as two individual skill bonuses. 4. A penalty to charisma matters less to most characters than a penalty to any other stat. Different games play differently, of course, buty the fact that 90% of the homebrew races placed on these boards have charisma penalties (and offer to balance the race by making the charisma penalty bigger!) in my mind shows this is true. There is no mechanical disadvantage to having a low penalty in most adventuring cirtcumstances, whereas there is for every other stat. I can support this point more fully if you like. I considered this issue. The more appropriate solution is to put a cap on the maximum penalty to any one ability score, because anything below -4 makes an ability score into a "dump" stat. By charging FP both for the highest ability score bonus and for the overall adjustment, large bonuses will be generally kept in check. As for charisma specifically being a general dump stat for melee characters, STR is a dump stat for arcane casters, DEX and INT are often (though not as often as charisma) a dump stat for heavy armor fighters, and I've dumped WIS just for fun on more than one occasion. 5. I think you undersetimate light sensitivity. Again, different games play differently, but (unless one can easily buy eye-protecting goggles, apparently a common uitem in some campaigns) light sensitivity is a major handicap. Maybe I have. In previous conversations I've given it either -1 or -2 FP. It isn't worth more than that, because a general -1 attack penalty is worth -3 FP. One important fact to note is that penalties are worth less than equivalent bonuses. The reason is that races can work around weaknesses and press their advantages. 7. I think you overestimate the value of first level spells 1/day (e.g. gnomes). It is not the same value, I'd suggest, as +1 to all saves. And you can get +1 to all saves from a zero-level spell. A first-level spell can grant +20 to an attack roll, or kill a first-level character on a lucky hit. Even utility spells, if used properly, can have a game-defining impact. Plus a first-level spellcaster only starts with 2-4 of them, depending on class and ability scores. There are other factors that need to be considered: unblanced stats need to be refined, I think (otherwise the hobgoblin has only 8 FPs?!) but generally I think your system works. What will be interesting for me is to see how you reckon hit dice: I look forward to your full document when it is ready! It'll also be interesting to see what the break-point is for other LA points (since I doubt that it will be additive: if LA 0 ~ 10-12 FPs, LA +1 < 20-24 FPS, LA +2 < 30-36 FPs, etc.) Eager eyes await! Kobold Stew. The hobgoblin actually gets 11 FP, and no, I don't think it should have a level adjustment. I think the lesser Aasimar should have a level adjustment, because it gets everything the hobgoblin gets, plus elemental resistances and spell-like abilities. Yes, the FP per level will scale. While I haven't had much time to work on it yet, I expect FP/ECL allotment to double every 2 levels. For racial hit dice, FP costs will be based on the size of the hit die, how many "good" saves they get, the base attack bonus progression, and skill points per level (ignoring the 4x award at 1st level).
MerlintheTuna 07-11-06, 02:16 PM	While I like the FP system, it does fail to take into account certain things. For example, convenience of favored classes. The Elf has Wizard, a class which rarely appears in a multiclass build unless PrCs down the line boost it. On the other hand, Dwarves have Fighter for their favored class, and just about every character that intends to get in a swordfight during their career could stand to have a level or two in fighter. It's inherently more front-loaded than the wizard, and for that reason a more useful favored class; a dwarf can go <class> 16/Fighter 4 and see considerable benefit, while an elf is more likely to go <class> 20 and not benefit from his favored class at all. I'd also say that ability scores giving +2 physical/-2 mental are borderline unbalanced ability scores simply because of how optional a mental score can be made. A halfling's +2 dex/-2 str certainly makes for effective rogue-ish play, but there's still a certain amount of give and take; he has to take weapon finesse if he intends to be in melee, and he deals less base damage and has to rely more on sneak attack. On the other hand, we have the dwarf with a waraxe, who gains a boost to his primary/secondary ability score and a subtraction to his ABSOLUTELY least important ability. That charisma in particular is such a weak stat means that dwarves even make better wizards then elves do, which seems a bit odd.
YabaTheWhat 07-11-06, 02:38 PM	Mr. theTuna, (I couldn't resist.) A bonus to a physical ability score with a penalty to a mental ability score (such as charisma) would have essentially the same impact as a bonus to a mental ability score (such as intelligence) with a penalty to a physical ability score (such as strength). The closer you get to the ends of the scale STR/DEX/CON/INT/WIS/CHA, the more specialized the ability score becomes, but its overall value does not change. As I stated above, what matters is how well the class utilizes the benefits of a race, and how well it avoids reliance on the race's drawbacks. Favored classes are really more of a side note. You asked what class couldn't benefit from a level of fighter, yet answered your own question. Most caster classes would not benefit from a level of fighter, because it would set them behind on caster levels. If used properly, one level of wizard can be quite useful (though one level of sorcerer would be better). In the end, favored class is all about tactical use, and tactical use is about versatility, which is why favored class Any is worth something. However, in most cases, multiclassing puts a core class behind on its class features, so it must be used with care regardless of favored class. As a sidenote, I think the gnome should have an INT bonus instead of CON, the dwarf should have a DEX penalty instead of CHA, and the wizard favored class should belong to the gnome, relegating the elves into a ranger favored class. This does not, however, affect whether or not they are mathematically balanced. I just think of gnomes as engineers, high elves as treehuggers, and dwarves as hobbling yet jovial folk (especially when drunk). - Yaba
Kobold Stew 07-11-06, 07:30 PM	Hi again: I think we agree on most things. There are a few places where I'll clarify my point, though. And yet, they can gain proficiency with every martial weapon for a single 4FP feat. Maybe martial weapons should be 1FP per weapon, and exotics 2FP per weapon. I'm pretty sure Martial weapon proficiency gives you proficiency in one weapon only. Plus, since one can only use one weapon at a time, and elves get an ideal HtH weapon and an ideal ranged weapon (compare gnomes!), I think the elf bonus is worth a feat or more. Their racial hit dice will be worth FP of their own. They should just about earn their LA+1. I'm not sure this is the best way to think of them, with your system, as I'll discuss below. But I'm happy to have you prove me wrong! :D As for charisma specifically being a general dump stat for melee characters, STR is a dump stat for arcane casters, DEX and INT are often (though not as often as charisma) a dump stat for heavy armor fighters, and I've dumped WIS just for fun on more than one occasion. But not quite: there are game mechanics associated with every stat except charisma: with a low strength you carry less, and do worse in melee. Dex affects ranged combat and armor class; con affects hit points and fort saves; int affects skill points; wisdom affects will saves. Charisma is tied to some skills, as are Str, Dex, Int, and Wis. Charisma is a dump stat not just for melee characrters, but also for wizards, many rogues, and druids. One important fact to note is that penalties are worth less than equivalent bonuses. The reason is that races can work around weaknesses and press their advantages. And you can get +1 to all saves from a zero-level spell. A first-level spell can grant +20 to an attack roll, or kill a first-level character on a lucky hit. True; but it is something that is always on. Since the duration of resistance is only one minute/level, it is not something that is always on. which the Halfling bonus is -- whether one expects to need a save or not (and IME saves are all the more important when one hasn't prepared to make them!) While I haven't had much time to work on it yet, I expect FP/ECL allotment to double every 2 levels. For racial hit dice, FP costs will be based on the size of the hit die, how many "good" saves they get, the base attack bonus progression, and skill points per level (ignoring the 4x award at 1st level). I agree with what you say about hit dice, but I think in terms of calculating LA, that the effect is going to be a negative. Hit dice are handicaps, in that they are levels that cannot be taken in a class, and, in most cases (excepting dragon and outsider) the value is going to be less than the value of the class. Monstrous humanoid, for example, is worse than a level of warrior, and it is forced on the character along with LA. If someone has to reckon with two humanoid hit dice, the benefits one gets at LA +1 (so ECL +3) should be greater than the simple benefits of LA +1 without dice; or, more to the point, if one were simply to strip the "benefits" of the hit dice, the LA would go up (hit-die-less Lizard folk might have an LA +2 for example). This is where I think your sysatem will potentially show things -- comparing creatures with equivalent ECL but different LA. Perhaps this is clearer now. It is a good system. KS.
YabaTheWhat 07-11-06, 08:53 PM	One thing I should clarify is that the Feature Points system doesn't actually calculate level adjustment. It calculates effective character level directly. My concept with this system is that racial features have values similar to class features, with three additional complications. A race does not necessarily have to earn features in proportion with its hit dice (hence LA). A race can have disadvantages, whereas a class only receives benefits. (And of course the barbarian class does receive a small disadvantage.) Races gain a certain number of features for free before they start competing with class levels. What I said about lizardfolk earning their LA+1 basically means that, with two racial hit dice and all their racial features, they will have enough FP for ECL = 3+CL. When a race with an ECL higher than its CL takes class levels, the effect should be similar to multiclassing. My point in comparing a +1 save bonus to a zero-level spell is that a first-level spell is worth quite a bit. The +1 save is equivalent to a zero-level spell at will. A first-level spell at will would be worth far more. A first-level spell useable once per day is still valuable, and I definitely would not want an ECL=CL race having several first-level spells per day as racial features. Might a first-level spell be worth 5FP rather than 6FP? Perhaps. I'll find out when I balance ECL=2+CL scaling against a 2nd-level spellcaster. However, I'm pretty sure that 4FP would be too low for a first-level spell, and 2FP is definitely right for a zero-level spell. Charisma actually is tied to several mechanics. They are simply not mechanics required in a toe-to-claw melee battle (also known as beating the snot out of a monster). Several skills and class abilities are tied to charisma, making it a valued ability score for rogues, clerics, paladins, sorcerers, druids (see: animal companion loyalty), anyone with the Leadership feat, etc. Plus a monster with low charisma tends to get run out of town a lot. Meanwhile, carrying capacity doesn't matter all that much to a sorcerer, druids can wildshape the problem away, and it's easy enough to buy a donkey (handle animal?) if your campaign isn't swarming with bags of holding. If the ability scores weren't at least roughly balanced, then any campaign which allowed a dump stat in any form (point buy, distribute rolls as desired, whatever) would be equally unbalanced. Designating unequal values to different ability scores would add unnecessary complication, and would open the door for abuses of its own. (Charisma's worth less? Super-boost it!)
Kobold Stew 07-12-06, 12:03 AM	Charisma actually is tied to several mechanics. They are simply not mechanics required in a toe-to-claw melee battle (also known as beating the snot out of a monster). Several skills and class abilities are tied to charisma, making it a valued ability score for rogues, clerics, paladins, sorcerers, druids (see: animal companion loyalty), anyone with the Leadership feat, etc. Plus a monster with low charisma tends to get run out of town a lot. Meanwhile, carrying capacity doesn't matter all that much to a sorcerer, druids can wildshape the problem away, and it's easy enough to buy a donkey (handle animal?) if your campaign isn't swarming with bags of holding. If the ability scores weren't at least roughly balanced, then any campaign which allowed a dump stat in any form (point buy, distribute rolls as desired, whatever) would be equally unbalanced. Designating unequal values to different ability scores would add unnecessary complication, and would open the door for abuses of its own. (Charisma's worth less? Super-boost it!) I think you have stengthened my opinion that Charisma is worth less. I mentioned the skills in my post. I had not considered animal companion loyalty, though I've not seen or heard of a game where this has been at stake. Unless you've killed your past few cohorts, I've not seen charisma actually boost the ECL of the cohort, since characters tend to havce sufficient bonuses to get the max level permitted anyways (the level cap actively works against the charisma applicability to the Leadership feat.) Meanwhile, "carrying capacity doesn't matter all that much to a sorcerer" does not match my experience playing a str 6 sorcerer at all, where every ounce is reckoned, even with the use of a handy haversack. I think we'll just have to agree to differ on this. But... however highly I value charisma (and regarless of subjective things like whether DMs choose to have characters run out of town), I know that if you look at the homebrew races on this board (heck, even the ones published by WOTC), charisma is used as the corrective ability more times than it is not. This suggests that the use of charisma in your game is not representative. Believe me, I'd love to be wrong on this, but too many people thing charisma is a dump stat; and the game gives them really good reasons to think that. My 2cp. KS
YabaTheWhat 07-12-06, 08:29 AM	(This is still here? Wow.) The fact is that pretty much anything besides CON can be used as a dump stat if handled correctly. A fighter with INT below 10 will get 1 skill point per level no matter what, and is less likely to use INT-based skills than CHA-based skills. The majority of spellcasters can dump STR because the party tank is carrying their gear (and on creatures of tiny size or smaller, STR often becomes the dump stat to allow a CHA bonus). With the feat "Force of Personality", WIS can also become a dump stat (because it changes the WILL save stat to... you guessed it... CHA). While DEX isn't used as a traditional dump stat, any score above 13 is useless to the average heavy-armor fighter. There are feats which depend on every ability score, and skills which depend on every ability score (though CON only gets one). If a campaign is so devoid of non-combat situations that charisma truly becomes useless, then maybe it should be treated as a dump stat. However, as I have already stated, this does not make it worth less; the ability score, like the gnome's abilities, is simply not being properly utilized (in this case by the DM as well as by the player). To compensate for improper utilization of one ability score would undermine the entire system. People who want to treat charisma as a dump stat can go ahead and do it. The races won't be overpowered, just more narrowly focused on combat. As I stated above, the more reasonable solution to the "dump stat" problem is to make bonuses cost more than penalties, and limit the worthwhile penalty to any one ability score. (I still say a -4 penalty cap seems reasonable.)
Boshi 07-13-06, 12:34 PM	A bonus to a physical ability score with a penalty to a mental ability score (such as charisma) would have essentially the same impact as a bonus to a mental ability score (such as intelligence) with a penalty to a physical ability score (such as strength). Exactly! Having a bonus to a mental stat and a penalty to a physical stat is worth some FP as is vice versa. This is because, as you said so yourself, a bonus is usually a bigger deal than a penalty since characters tend to play to their strengths and avoid their penalties. A +2/-2 stat adjustment is almost always more useful than no stat adjustment at all since players will use the +2 to boost what's already a high stat and the -2 to penalize what's already a low stat in most situations. So a stat adjustment of any kind is better than none for the same reason that 16 12 10 10 10 10 is more expensive in a point-buy game than 14 14 10 10 10 10. Also I think you overestimate the powerful of SLA since after the first level or two they quickly become very useless and the examples you chose of powerful low level spells (true strike) aren't usually the kinds we see. For example, gnomes SLAs are mostly useless. Finally, your system showing that kobolds are balanced might point to a problem in your system. I really don't think that being able to mitigate one of the penalties of being small is worth that much, same goes for the little big of natural armor. Maybe it's that you're undervalueing how more of an impact unbalanced stat modifiers have. Of course what you're doing is very hard since it's hard to make one call that applies across levels and across classes. I think it's very hard to balance a race that is very very good as being a certain set of classes and very very bad at being another set of classes.
YabaTheWhat 07-13-06, 02:32 PM	I've considered making any ability score bonus worth +3 FP per +2 and any penalty worth -2 FP per -2 (or +4 and -3 respectively). This would raise the FP recommended value from 10-12 FP to 10-13 FP, and would boost the totals for all core races other than humans by 1 FP. For SLAs, the point isn't what races have typically gotten in the past. Any SLA is powerful if used properly, and certain SLAs would be obsurdly powerful. (Just picture Cure Minor Wounds as an at-will SLA.) This also means that the cost of use-at-will SLAs will need to depend on the duration of one use of the spell. Is the spell Speak with Animals really worth 5 or 6 FP? Yes, if used correctly and/or frequently. Is Entangle worth 5 or 6 FP? Most certainly. As a point of note on the kobold, the kobold's 30 ft speed is not about "being able to mitigate one of the penalties of being small". It is about the increase itself. If we make it about mitigating the penalty, then we would have to discard the idea that the size change is balanced, and look at its individual bonuses & penalties. For a decrease from medium to small size, a creature gains +1 to all attack rolls, +1 to armor class, a +4 hide bonus, -1 average damage, 25% carrying capacity reduction, and 10 ft speed reduction. ¤ +1 universal attack bonus is worth 6FP ¤ +1 unconditional AC bonus is worth 6FP (as per natural armor & deflection) ¤ +4 hide bonus is worth 2FP ¤ -1 average damage is worth -2FP ¤ -25% carrying capacity is worth -1FP ¤ -10ft movement is worth -3FP OR -6FP as part of the size change package Overall, they actually come out ahead for being smaller. However, as part of the size reduction to Small, we allow the imbalance at no cost (and some people actually think being small is a handicap). Keep in mind also that the AC bonuses from size, dexterity, and natural armor all stack. The dex bonus to AC isn't worth as much because it is the single easiest AC bonus to lose (with dodge bonuses running a close second).
YabaTheWhat 07-13-06, 03:00 PM	For example, gnomes SLAs are mostly useless. I want to address this complaint specifically. My players have made creative and insightful use of Gnomish SLAs (and their spell equivalents). This is where the difference between underutilized and underpowered comes into play. As with individual ability scores (mentioned above), if the system made exceptions for abilities that were underutilized, then every single spell would require its own listed value. If particular spells of a given level are dramatically more or less powerful than others, then obviously the levels of the spells themselves would need to be adjusted, rather than assigning different FP values to different spells at the same level.
Izodor_Shadowcaster 07-13-06, 04:13 PM	This is great! You are a god! Great Job :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
GothiousRex 07-13-06, 06:13 PM	Natural Armor +1 is 6 FP +2 Dex is 3 FP? Dex gives +1 AC conditionally (ie not surprised/flatffoted) with an Armor restriction whereas the Natural Armor Bonus is always active and stacks with dex bonus so I can see why the Natural Armor has a higher FP but +2 Dex also provides many other benefits as well +1 to hit with ranged weapons and a Reflex save bonus for example . Should they really be so different in value ?
YabaTheWhat 07-13-06, 11:06 PM	Should they really be so different in value ?Yes, they should, but not for the most obvious reasons. Raising the FP value of an ability score bonus will have one of two effects. Either the value of an ability score penalty would need to increase in tandem, or the FP allotment for each ECL would increase. In either case, every other feature's relative value goes down, encouraging the use of dump stats to earn FP for extra features. The solution has two parts, both of which I have already described. First, any race with an ability score bonus over +2 incurs additional FP cost based on its highest score. If the FP value of an ability score bonus is raised by 1FP (making the bonus 4FP per +2 or a penalty -3FP per -2), then a single ability score bonus of +4 actually costs 16FP, or two ability score bonuses of +4 each cost 24FP. The more rounded a race's ability scores, the more cost-efficient the benefits. Second, to limit ability score gauging (also known as the creation of a dump stat), larger ability score penalties need to provide declining returns. Ability score penalties of up to -4 are worth -3FP per -2 penalty. Below that, however, it becomes an excessive penalty, worth only -1FP per -2 penalty. So a -8 penalty to strength (yes, I've seen it done) would only earn -8FP, while two -4 penalties would earn -12FP. Because almost any ability score can become a dump stat, this discourages excessive penalties across the board. Keep in mind that a carefully-designed race could earn +4 to an ability score without picking up a level adjustment or racial hit dice. First, take +2 dexterity and -2 to some other ability score, for a net total of 1FP (using the +4/-3 scaling; I've decided that's a reasonable idea). Second, make the race size small. Third, take two points of natural armor for 12FP. That's 13FP total, for +4 AC, -1 average damage, +1 attack bonus, and -10 ft movement. Or ditch one point of natural armor and buy your speed back up to 30 ft instead. Or don't go for small size at all, and just grab the +2 dex and the +2 natural armor for +3 AC. Not really a well-rounded race, but balanced nonetheless.
Harkle 07-13-06, 11:13 PM	I'm curious to see how you would rate the Hobgoblin with this system, I've always though they were a cool race in 3rd ed, but the +1 LA never seemed to be worth it in thier case so I never played one. So I'd like to see what a player built rating system has to say about hobgoblins.
YabaTheWhat 07-13-06, 11:18 PM	I'm curious to see how you would rate the Hobgoblin with this system, I've always though they were a cool race in 3rd ed, but the +1 LA never seemed to be worth it in thier case so I never played one. So I'd like to see what a player built rating system has to say about hobgoblins. The hobgoblin actually gets 11 FP, and no, I don't think it should have a level adjustment. I think the lesser Aasimar should have a level adjustment, because it gets everything the hobgoblin gets, plus elemental resistances and spell-like abilities. HOBGOBLIN CHARACTERS Hobgoblin characters possess the following racial traits. — +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. [8 FP] —A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. [2 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc. [0 FP] —Favored Class: Fighter. [0 FP] —Level adjustment +1. [SEE BELOW] With +4/-3 per +2/-2 ability score adjustments, it would be 13FP. Still no LA required.
Boshi 07-14-06, 03:53 AM	I think that you're mostly on the right track, but on a few things you're somehwat out of wack. I think that you're biggest problem is that you're undervalueing the impact of stat modifiers (the biggest crunchy reason why people choose races). While you're correct in that the poor half-orc is hosed I don't think your system in its current state is not properly accounting for the weakness of half elves and kobolds. I've considered making any ability score bonus worth +3 FP per +2 and any penalty worth -2 FP per -2 (or +4 and -3 respectively). That's a step in the right direction. I'd make it something more like +6/-4 personally with each stat being valued a bit differently. SLA is powerful if used properly, and certain SLAs would be obsurdly powerful. Exactly. Some SLAs are more powerful than others so it doesn't make sense to make a Cure Light Sounds at will SLA have the same value as a Speak with Animals SLA when one is VASTLY more powerful than the other. Is the spell Speak with Animals really worth 5 or 6 FP? Yes, if used correctly and/or frequently. So you're saying that Speak with Animals is worth 5 or 6 FPs and a -2 to a stat is worth -2 FP. That means that you think if you took a human, slapped on on a Speak with Animals SLA and then gave it -2 to dex and -2 to con then then humans would become MORE powerful with that change? That's silly. I'm not saying that a Speak with Animals SLA wouldn't be useful, but I don't think it's more useful than +2 to a stat and I think that most people would agree with me on this. 1 universal attack bonus is worth 6FP ¤ +1 unconditional AC bonus is worth 6FP (as per natural armor & deflection) There's your problem right there. There's no way in hell that those benefits are worth that much relative to what you say your stat bonuses are worth. The dex bonus to AC isn't worth as much because it is the single easiest AC bonus to lose (with dodge bonuses running a close second). Right, but dex is useful for boosting skills, some attack roles and reflex saves as well. If +4 to hide is worth +2 FP then +2 to dex should be worth +2 just for being better at the many dex-based skills +2 dex is worth another +2 FP for improving your reflex save and at least a couple more for AC and attack roles. It doesn't make any sense at all so say that +1 natural armor is significantly better than +2 dex. then obviously the levels of the spells themselves would need to be adjusted, rather than assigning different FP values to different spells at the same level. Not really. If some spells are far more flexible than others and the more flexible ones are more useful as SLAs. I think you carefully need to go over what each stat does, break down their effects and then give each of them a FP value on a case by case basis. Use the same system that you've been using for the rest of the stuff. STR: +1 bonus to damage (maybe 2 FP) + +1 bonus to hit with many weapons (maybe 2 FP, since it's definately much more useful than the halfling bonus to thrown weapons) and bonuses to skills and carrying capacity (another 2 or three FPs). So maybe 7 FPs. DEX: +1 to Reflex saves (2 FP) +1 to his with some weapons (maybe 2 FP maybe 1.5) +1 to most AC (at least 2 FP) and bonuses to loooots of skill checks (another FP or 2). So maybe 8 FPs and maybe a little more for the initiative bonus. CON:+1 to Fort saves (2 FP) +1 to HPs (worth one feat since it's the same as Improve Toughness) 6 HPs. So maybe 8 HPs. INT: 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level (3.5 FPs) bonuses to some skill checks (maybe another 1 or 2 FPs) and bonus to spellcasting and whatnot (hard to judge but at least worth something). So that's 5ish plus whatever int's use for spellcasting is worth in FPs. WIS: +1 to will saves (2 FPs) bonuses to a few skills (maybe a F or two) and bonus to spellcasting whatnot. So maybe 3 FPs plus whatever wis' use for spellcasting is worth in FPs. CHA: Bonuses to a few skills (maybe a FP or two) plus useful for spellcasting and the abilities of a couple classes. So maybe 1 or 2 FPs plus whatever cha is worth for sorcerous spellcasting and paladin and whatnot abilities. Just break down what each of the stats do and try to justify what FP value each of them should have based on each of their effects.
YabaTheWhat 07-14-06, 08:33 AM	Boshi, I already addressed your statement about ability scores in my reply to GothiousRex. Making a +2 ability score bonus worth much more than the penalty would raise the FP total provided to each race, while raising both the bonus and penalty values would encourage ability score gouging. Making one ability score more valuable than another would make the system overly and unnecessarily complicated. At the very least, accommodating that would require 12 entries (bonus and penalty values for each score), but more than likely it would end up as a full-page chart ("Make +2 charisma worth 4FP and -2 charisma worth -1FP but +4 charisma worth 7FP and +6 charisma worth 13FP and oh deity strength bonus swearword oh deity!"), and I refuse to do that. Nevermind what would be required to give every spell in every book its own separate value. Charts be swearworded, that'd be a publication on its own, and this project isn't supposed to require outside funding. If one spell is really so much more or less useful than its peers that it would require a different value, perhaps the spell itself was given the wrong spell level. (Use-at-will is a slightly different story, because spells with shorter durations tend to have greater utility when available for unlimited use. Duration, from the 24-hour Magic Aura down to instantaneous spells, serves as a major balancing factor for individual spells of differing power.) No, not everything that provides the same bonuses will be worth the same amount on a small scale. By the same token, similar features will not receive individual values just because one seems more or less useful in a particular situation. It's one of the sacrifices made for large-scale balance. A few months ago, a poster made a very strong case for why the value of ability score bonuses as a whole depends heavily on the highest bonus, and I have already incorporated that viewpoint successfully into the FP system. While a certain amount of critique does encourage analysis, that's not what you're doing. You're taking points that have already been addressed, and pressing them to death, in an attempt to force the use of an inappropriate solution to what you continue to perceive as a problem. All that does, from my perspective, is place me on the defensive as I repeatedly assert my position. I have already explained my position, both on ability scores and SLAs (repeatedly in the case of ability scores). If you have a simple and viable solution to what you perceive as a problem, then suggest the solution, and I'll analyze for myself whether it would prove beneficial. Otherwise... well, you get the idea.
YabaTheWhat 07-14-06, 10:07 AM	Keep in mind that a carefully-designed race could earn +4 to an ability score its armor class without picking up a level adjustment or racial hit dice. Oops. :P
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-14-06, 12:49 PM	Does a race having two mutually exclusive benefits reduce the FP value for one or both of the benefits? As an example, and I know it's a minor one but it's the only one that I can think of right now, the goblin. It has a +4 bonus on Ride checks (2 FP) and +10' to move speed (6 FP), however at any given time the goblin can only use one or the other benefit, not both. That may only be a slight disadvantage for the goblin (if any disadvantage), but in a more extreme case of mutually exclusive abilities, it may devalue the abilities of a race in play. What's the threshold (if any) for FP reduction for such situations?
YabaTheWhat 07-14-06, 01:18 PM	Technically, a lot of bonuses would be mutually exclusive. For example, a ranged attack bonus and a melee attack bonus are mutually exclusive. In these cases, there would be no reduction in the value of the abilities themselves. The creature still receives the full benefit of both abilities to the extent for which each is applicable. In other words, the fact that neither feature is used all the time has already been factored into their costs. The exception is abilities which can be offered in groups. For example, take the extensive professions list. Rather than charging separately for each profession, a creature could have a bonus in profession (all). This would be worth more than a bonus to any one profession, but far less than separate bonuses to each individual profession. However, in the case where one ability actually overrides another, only the higher-value ability would count, resulting in a reduction of the lesser ability's value in proportion to the part which is overriden. For example, immunity to fire and spell immunity. Both abilities would prevent damage from fire spells. Since spell immunity is the more powerful ability, the value of fire immunity would be reduced. (Of course, if the system is balanced, it shouldn't matter which ability is reduced, because the FP reduction itself would be the same.)
myusernameis 07-14-06, 11:12 PM	I'm curious Yaba, what is +2 to a single ability score worth?
YabaTheWhat 07-15-06, 07:57 AM	I'm curious Yaba, what is +2 to a single ability score worth? For a single ability score bonus of +2, the cost is 4 FP. Originally I was using 3 FP for a +2 bonus and -3 FP for a -2 penalty, but after consideration, I raised the cost of the bonus slightly. Any race with an ability score bonus greater than +2 incurs an additional cost based on their highest ability score bonus. They pay for their highest bonus a second time, making it cost a total of 8 FP per +2 bonus. In the case of a tie, pick one. Confused? Here are a few examples: STR +4 = 8 FP DEX +6 = 12 FP + 12 FP CON +2 = 4 FP INT -2 = -3 FP WIS +0 = 0 FP CHA -2 = -3 FP TOTAL = 30 FP STR +8 = 16 FP + 16 FP DEX -2 = -3 FP CON +8 = 16 FP INT +0 = 0 FP WIS +2 = 4 FP CHA +0 = 0 FP TOTAL = 49 FP STR -2 = -3 FP DEX +2 = 4 FP CON -2 = -3 FP INT +0 = 0 FP WIS +2 = 4 FP CHA +2 = 4 FP TOTAL = 6 FP Notice how the third example does not pay a second penalty on its highest score. Using this method, rather than a flat cost of 8FP per +2 bonus, encourages race designers to define their races using ability score bonuses, rather than diving straight into special features like speed bonuses or natural armor. It also encourages the creation of more well-rounded races, since the cost of raising a second or third ability score is only half the cost of raising the first one.
zae 07-15-06, 10:29 AM	Although I question the accuracy of a system that says Kobolds are about as good a choice as humans, that could easily be nothing more than a poor example, a case where it didn't work. In general, I like this. It seems to work reasonably well, particularly with the ability scores. No more of this "+6 to (ability score for the class I want my custom race to be good at), -2 to (three other ability scores that the class doesn't need as much)" silliness. Well, reduced silliness.
YabaTheWhat 07-15-06, 12:49 PM	Although I question the accuracy of a system that says Kobolds are about as good a choice as humans, that could easily be nothing more than a poor example, a case where it didn't work. Actually it did work. Kobolds have the best light-armor AC potential of any published ECL=CL race. They have the full movement rate of a medium creature with the attack bonus of a small creature. While they wouldn't be great in toe-to-toe combat, they would make handy rogues, and would do decently as spellcasters (despite the CON penalty). As with the gnome, the kobold's advantages are simply underutilized, and its drawbacks draw attention, so it looks underpowered. (Adjustments since the initial review: ability score FP value increases to -2FP, light sensitivity decreases to -2FP, no overall change in FP value.)
thenotoriousJIM 07-15-06, 01:57 PM	Is lifespan something you are planning on adressing, or is it not worth it (most groups ignore those rules). ANd do you really think that elven blood and orc blood are worthless features.
YabaTheWhat 07-15-06, 02:27 PM	Is lifespan something you are planning on adressing, or is it not worth it (most groups ignore those rules). There are only a few cases where a race's longevity might matter, and in each of those cases, what matters is the age category, not the actual number of years. Only a campaign that spans enough in-game time to make characters change age categories mid-campaign will even bring up this issue. Generally a race's lifespan acts more as flavor, having neglegible impact on game mechanics. ANd do you really think that elven blood and orc blood are worthless features. More like self-balancing features. Let's say we gave a race everything-blood. It would never need to make Use Magic Device checks based on race. Every race-specific prestige class would be available, provided it met the other prerequisites. It would also be vulnerable to all Bane weapons (which have a lot of power for a relatively low price). On the whole, having everything-blood might be worth 1FP. Divisions of that 1FP small enough to represent a single race just seems frivolous. Besides, most races get the blood of their own race without it even being mentioned. If we charge the half-elf for elven blood, then we have to charge the elf for elven blood, the human for human blood, the orc for orc blood... it just doesn't seem worthwhile. Having a non-humanoid's immunity to humanoid-only spells would be worthwhile, but that would require a change in creature type, not just a bloodline. Ooh, page 2!
thepsionicbard 07-15-06, 06:06 PM	My point in comparing a +1 save bonus to a zero-level spell is that a first-level spell is worth quite a bit. The +1 save is equivalent to a zero-level spell at will. A first-level spell at will would be worth far more. since theres no longer 0 level spells in 3.5 dose the FP system adjust to reflect this? i :love: the FP system can you post a link that describes the system in detail ? :drool:
YabaTheWhat 07-15-06, 06:10 PM	since theres no longer 0 level spells in 3.5 :confused: Wait, what? dose the FP system adjust to reflect this? See above. i :love: the FP system can you post a link that describes the system in detail ? :drool: Not until I finish writing it. :P
thenotoriousJIM 07-15-06, 11:01 PM	they may think that they may be getting terms confused: osirons (sp)= divine 0 level spells cantrips= arcane 0 level spells.
zae 07-16-06, 06:04 AM	they may think that they may be getting terms confused: osirons (sp)= divine 0 level spells cantrips= arcane 0 level spells. Orisons. Still don't see kobolds as an equal race before you include the Races of the Dragon web enhancement. A lot of characters of others I know would agree, except they're too dead to do so.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-16-06, 07:05 AM	I don't get you, zae. In another thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=669397) you seem to make undersizedness out to be a good thing that requires being balanced with a bunch of penalties, and here you seem to have the opposite opinion about an undersized race that has a lot going for it and relatively few drawbacks. Are you just argumentative, or do you not see what you're doing, or do you have some other motive I'm not picking up on?
thenotoriousJIM 07-16-06, 09:24 AM	The quick way of makeing a Kobald look good is: +2 to defense. natural armor and size. Most spell casters do not care about being low on anything else as long as at lower levels they have a decent AC. Some of his things are not as good depending on other things. Here is a new question that relates to the kobald.... Will you have speed bonuses scale. A small with a speed of 30 is not as powerful as a medium of 40. So is this going to be reflected or is it a base FP for a +10 to speed
YabaTheWhat 07-16-06, 11:34 AM	Will you have speed bonuses scale. A small with a speed of 30 is not as powerful as a medium of 40. So is this going to be reflected or is it a base FP for a +10 to speed Thus far everything points to 6FP per +10 movement rate being balanced in all cases. I haven't reached a point where I could test this theory for larger increments.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-16-06, 11:49 AM	What about variable, scaling speed increases? For example (assuming this system can be applied to templates as well), a Shadow Creature's speed is 150% of the base creature's. For say, a shadow human, its speed is 45' (15' improvement), but then if that human takes a level of barbarian, that speed jumps up to 60' (20' improvement). If the shadow human then puts on boots of striding and springing, the speed increases to 75' (25' improvement), and so forth. If the shadow human instead took monk levels, things could really get ridiculous. What is a speed increase that scales itself up like that worth?
YabaTheWhat 07-17-06, 07:59 AM	When considering a scaling feature, such as the shadow creature template's speed multiplier, or spell resistance, or bonus SLAs based on hit dice, two basic questions apply: ¤ What is the worst case at the creature's current level? ¤ How quickly does the ability scale over the course of future levels? In the case of the speed bonus mentioned above, the worst case at level 1 is +25 ft, on a barbarian with a 40 ft racial base speed. At 6 FP per +10 ft speed boost, that's 15 FP immediate value. Boots of Striding and Springing, as well as the spell Expeditious Retreat on which they're based, are not part of the character herself, and are thus not included. (Plus the speed boost from these magics wouldn't be multiplied, because it is not part of the creature.) For speed increases based on level, we look at the monk class. Remember that, for every two levels a benefit is postponed, its immediate value is halved. So if the shadow creature template grants +50 ft movement at 20th level, it isn't going to be worth much at 1st level. In all, the barbarian's immediate bonus is probably worth more, so that is the value used. Note that this means templates with scaling features will have scaling FP values based on the creatures to which they are applied.
Two Rivers Wolfbrother 07-17-06, 08:04 AM	How many feature points would the feature Powerful Build (Half-Giants, Goliaths) be? How many would Spell Resistance (Drow) be?
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-17-06, 08:13 AM	Hmmmm... So, basically, FP value (and thereby appropriate ECL) won't be calculated for templates that scale, but rather for the creature created when the template is applied to a base. Well, while that does cause some issues for quick and dirty template evaluation, I suppose it's probably the best approach in the end. You'd streamline out a lot of unnecessarily complicated exceptions and clauses in the FP system, and avoid ECL rounding problems when working with overpowered or underpowered template and race combinations. Hopefully, application of the system to templated creatures won't be too difficult once the full system is released. Hey, just out of morbid curiosity, and because I know of a roundabout way to make a non-spellcasting, 1st-level one work, and have been trying to talk a DM into letting me test-drive it... What's the FP value and appropriate LA for a goblin lich? :rofl: Poor Yaba, he started to create something interesting and useful, and now he's getting mobbed.
YabaTheWhat 07-17-06, 09:22 AM	How many feature points would the feature Powerful Build (Half-Giants, Goliaths) be? How many would Spell Resistance (Drow) be? For powerful build, we need to consider either (a) what is gained, or (b) what isn't lost, and rate the values of those features individually. Since I do not have a readily-available copy of the list of benefits, I will try to do this from memory. What they gain: greater damage potential (best +1d6 damage on greataxe when going from medium to large) [9 FP], greater carrying capacity [2 FP], special combat bonuses (trip +4, bull rush +4, grapple +4) [3 FP]. That totals at 14 FP. What they don't lose: -1 Attack Penalty [+6/-3 FP], -1 AC [+6/-3 FP], -4 hide [+2/-1 FP]. That one totals 14 FP on bonuses, or -7 FP on penalties. Since they aren't taking penalties, we ignore the -7. Either of the other two approaches make it worth 14 FP on a medium-size creature. Note that the value of Powerful Build may vary slightly based on the creature to which it is applied. The increased weapon damage on a small creature with powerful build would only be worth 6 FP, not 9 FP, making the entire package worth only 11 FP. I haven't really road tested values for spell resistance yet. Obviously non-scaling SR becomes less useful to creatures as their ECL gets higher. Scaling SR, such as the drow's 11+CL, remains about as potent at high levels as it starts out at low levels. A high enough SR at low levels would be roughly equivalent to spell immunity. A couple options I've considered: ¤ A constant value of 3 FP per point. This would give SR 12 a value of 36 FP, SR 22 a value of 66 FP, and SR 32 a value of 96 FP. ¤ An incrementing value. The first 5 points are worth 1 FP per point. The second 5 points are worth 2 FP per point. The third 5 points are worth 3 FP per point. And so on. This would give SR 12 a value of 21 FP, SR 22 a value of 60 FP, or SR 32 a value of 119 FP.
Yuri_Zhivago 07-18-06, 02:32 PM	Yaba, I'm really interested to hear what values you have to give to extra appendages (arms, wings, tails, etc.) abilities like the lizardfolk's Hold Breath, and the Scent quality. Would you be so kind as to say? Yuri_Zhivago
YabaTheWhat 07-18-06, 04:36 PM	Yaba, I'm really interested to hear what values you have to give to extra appendages (arms, wings, tails, etc.) abilities like the lizardfolk's Hold Breath, and the Scent quality. Would you be so kind as to say? Yuri_Zhivago The value of extra limbs, such as arms, legs, and wings, are determined by what advantages they provide, rather than the presence of the limbs themselves. For example, wings that provide a fly speed are worth far more than wings that only provide gliding ability. Flight may, by itself, be worth different amounts based on maneuverability, speed, and duration (if limited). Extra arms could allow extra standard actions, extra attacks, or both, they might provide skill bonuses, or they might only be useful for holding objects. Hold Breath (as in the creature may hold its breath 4x as long before it risks drowning) is basically a conditional benefit, generally not worth more than 1 FP. While I haven't assigned a final value to Scent, a value of 6 FP (1 FP per 5 ft range) seems reasonable. Remember that scent does not let a creature identify the exact location of its target. Abilities such as blindsense or blindsight would be worth significantly more.
Izodor_Shadowcaster 07-18-06, 04:44 PM	Abilities such as blindsense or blindsight would be worth significantly more. You just asked my question :) How much FP for blindsense or blindsight?
klyre 07-18-06, 06:09 PM	And yet, they can gain proficiency with every martial weapon for a single 4FP feat. I don't know if anyone else caught you on this, but Martial Weapon Proficiency only grants proficiency in one martial weapon, not all of them. And elves get 4 martial weapon proficiencies. Sounds like 4 feats to me.
YabaTheWhat 07-18-06, 11:41 PM	I don't know if anyone else caught you on this, but Martial Weapon Proficiency only grants proficiency in one martial weapon, not all of them. And elves get 4 martial weapon proficiencies. Sounds like 4 feats to me. Someone caught it right after I posted it. And as I told that person, I have a preference for familiarity anyway; it just makes more sense. Guess this means martial proficiency and exotic proficiency will be worth the same. Poor elves, they've got four of these things, two of which are made entirely frivolous by the other two.
Teydyn 07-19-06, 02:23 AM	For powerful build... special combat bonuses (trip +4, bull rush +4, grapple +4) [3 FP]. You need to adress the trip/bullrush/grapple for small races too, its quite a disadvantage for them. If you count FP for the hide bonus, you should count a FP for the size-modifier too. Otherwise, great system =)
Boshi 07-19-06, 02:50 AM	greater carrying capacity [2 FP] Another example of you valueing the things that you get because of stat increases more than actual stat increases. The way you have things set up you have Large Build worth at least as much as +4 strength which is very strange...
YabaTheWhat 07-19-06, 09:50 AM	You need to adress the trip/bullrush/grapple for small races too, its quite a disadvantage for them. If you count FP for the hide bonus, you should count a FP for the size-modifier too. Otherwise, great system =) Maybe you missed the part where I already compared the benefits and drawbacks of a size decrease. Granted, I missed the conditional bonuses, but I also said small creatures were coming out ahead, and was giving them a pass on it. So I guess this means the size change really does balance itself. The reason they were specifically mentioned in the Powerful Build analysis is because Powerful Build is, in fact, not a size change. You just asked my question :) How much FP for blindsense or blindsight?Let's start with the more powerful feature, Blindsight, and break it down into smaller bonuses to see exactly what it gives. First, it grants the ability to see invisible creatures. Second, it grants darkvision. Third, it grants the next best thing to gaze immunity. Fourth, it grants immunity to blindness, darkness, concealment, and any other effects that confound vision. We could also say it grants the blind fighting feat, but that would be redundant, and as I have already stated, redundant bonuses are not counted. This leaves us with four benefits. Starting with the vision benefits, we already know that darkvision is worth 3 FP. The ability to see invisible creatures is worth significantly more, worth 9-12 FP (I haven't decided on a final value). (As a sidenote, while both darkvision and seeing invisibility are 2nd level spell abilities, both have been made special cases of enhanced vision. Darkvision really should be a first-level spell in my opinion, and low-light vision a cantrip. They'd get used far more often.) Moving on to immunities, gaze immunity would be worth 8 FP. While it's a fairly narrow field of immunity (a single attack type), almost any spell can be (and some pretty potent ones already have been) made into a gaze attack, and gazes are difficult to avoid. Finally there is the immunity to vision impairment. Vision impairment includes magical darkness (which is not penetrated by darkvision), mist & fog, blur effects, blinding light, and direct vision impairments (eye damage), along with a few effects I'll probably remember later. However, blindsight has an additional aspect, which actually gives us a useful tool when designating its value. Any creature with blindsight has it for a limited range. Rather than designating a high flat value for the ability, we can give it a lower value per 5 ft range increment. All things considered, 4 FP per 5 ft increment feels right. However, we need to add something else as well. Many of the benefits of blindsight kick in for melee attacks in the first increment. Rather than giving the first increment a special value, we can have the creature's own square(s) count as its first increment. Therefore blindsight 0 ft would be worth 4 FP, 5 ft would be worth 8 FP, 10 ft would be worth 12 FP, 15 ft would be worth 16 FP, and so forth. Blindsense and tremorsense work the same way as blindsight, but either cover less area or provide less benefits (or both). Blindsense covers the full area of blindsight, but provides less benefits. It is worth 3 FP per range increment, including the creature's own squares. Tremorsense provides the same benefits as blindsense, but only covers grounded creatures, making it worth only 2 FP per range increment (again including the creature's own squares for the first increment). Another example of you valueing the things that you get because of stat increases more than actual stat increases. The way you have things set up you have Large Build worth at least as much as +4 strength which is very strange... And another example of you trying to back me into a corner while ignoring what I've already told you. Maybe an analogy will help. Think of ability score bonuses like subscriptions to a magazine. The first one is similar to the free sample (though it isn't quite free anymore). Try a sample of our creature-defining ability score bonuses! Now only 1 FP as part of the two-two balanced package! If you like it, you decide to buy. Now you're paying retail price, 8 FP per +2 bonus for your the first score you boost. But wait! There's more! Once they've paid the highest price on the highest ability score, the other ones come at a discount. Like a subscription, this encourages rounding the creature out with packaged bonuses, rather than just picking and choosing the ones with the most streamlined single-purpose benefit. That goes for both the ability score bonuses themselves, and the way in which the costs are applied. What would happen if ability score bonuses were worth as much as the individual benefits they provided? Nobody would ever take an ability score bonus unless they wanted every single benefit. Let's say you made a giant creature oriented towards melee fighting. You wouldn't need the extra lifting and carrying capacity. You wouldn't need dex bonuses, because you could just pile on natural armor for less. Then you wouldn't need to pay for spot bonuses either, because it won't lose anything when caught flatfooted. Or give it 5 ft tremorsense in case of sneak attacks. Or give it improved uncanny dodge... and dex 6. Why not? It already has a +10 attack and +30 damage bonus with strength 10. Worried about saving throws? Buy the bonuses separately. If it gets too expensive, use spell resistance instead. Of course dump intelligence and charisma as low as they go, because who needs them for melee? And don't bother buying extra constitution either; it'd be cheaper just to grab Toughness several times than to take the hit dice needed for constitution to matter. Do you see the problem yet? What we have here is a comic book supervillain, not a fantasy monster. It looks like a perfectly normal (if rather ugly) human being, until it walks up to someone and gently touches their shoulder, at which point their body flies across the room and splatters against the far wall. The creature looks confused and forlorn for a second, then walks over to the next person and does it again. Then you hear the scream, and everyone runs around panicking, accompanied by the occasional splat as someone ventures too close to the creature's idly outstretched finger. Yet the creature is neither strong nor magical. It just has a really super-awesome index finger. Like totally fer shur! Not everything is about strict item-for-item balance. Balance in absolute is not balanced at all. (Much like absolute chaos is the embodiment of order, but that's another argument.)
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-20-06, 09:29 AM	Aw, it's too early for this to fall to the bottom. Also I'm curious about undead traits, nonabilities and a race/template combo in particular, and I think a question asked before got missed, so I'll try it again and related questions. Yaba, what's the FP breakdown for a goblin with the lich template applied? Is it within the proper range for LA +4? Underpowered, overpowered, outright wrong for that LA? If it doesn't fit there, what LA would you put it at? Does the money and time requirement of acquiring the template have any bearing on FP? What is the proper FP range for LA +4?
YabaTheWhat 07-20-06, 11:19 AM	While I could try to lay out feature point values for the individual benefits and drawbacks of becoming a lich, I couldn't tell you at this point whether it would earn LA+4. In order to spec out the FP ranges for various ECLs, I need to contrast them with the class abilities for a member of a core race with class levels. (I believe I said before that taking class levels for a creature with an ECL > CL should have an effect similar to multiclassing.) Features acquired through racial hit dice (or class hit dice for purposes of comparison) [HD size, BAB progression, # of good saves, skill points per HD], also need to have their (currently preliminary) values tested for balance. This will take a significant block of consecutive free time, which I have yet to attain.
Wolghan 07-21-06, 11:46 PM	My compliments on your system, I can't wait for the complete guideline you are making. A few questions: How many FPs would these abilities cost: -Regeneration, fast healing, DR? -Energy resistance (5, 10, 15, inmune altogether) -Energy vulnerability -Poison/Disease -Vulnerability to certain things (For instance, holy water)
ressurrector 07-22-06, 12:59 AM	Just wondering, how many FP does a LA grant? I have a DM that is using an alternative racial creation system (feats/flaws) and so far there is nothing about LA in there. Just trying to figure out how many feats a level should trade in for, in general. Please excuse me if the LA/FP amounts have allready been discussed.
ArochanoX 07-22-06, 04:21 AM	There's one problem with your system. Mainly in the ability scores. I've tried to make this sort of system before, so I know what I'm talking about. In your system, +2 to one ability score costs 4 FP. Correct? In your system, -2 to one ability score costs -3 FP. Correct? +4 and higher bonuses cost more by some geometric progression? In your system, you could make a powerful (but very dull creature) like this: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con. No special abilities. Favored Class Fighter. Languages the usual (no FP) Total of merely 12 FP, so LA +0? Does this race look balanced? If compared to human or any other +0 LA race in existence, this race has superior combat abilities (using any weapon at any range). So the basic problem is, that your system gives too less value for ability score bonuses, and allows quite trendemous unbalanced ability scores. How many LA +0 creatures have you ecountered to have positive ability score bonus? None? Or maybe one or two? If you've ecountered some, they've some huge penalties to adjust this. I suggest that you give much more value for ability scores. Something like: +2 to one ability (10 FP), -2 to one ability (-8 FP). Or something near that. I also suggest following: No physical ability bonus can be negated with an even penalty to a mental stat. If one wants to do that, the penalty must apply to 2 stats, or the penalty must be double for one mental stat. No mental ability bonus can be nagated with an even penalty to another mental stat. If one wants to do that, the penalty must apply to 2 stats, ore the penalty must be double for one mental stat. This reduces following evil combinations: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Wis, -2 Cha +1 natural armor +1 universal to hit modifier with composite long bows +1 universal save bonus agains everything for all saves FP cost: around 10 (I'm not sure) and +2 Int, -2 Wis +1 caster level for evocation spells +1 save DC for evocation spells Precosious apprentice as a bonus feat. (Scorching ray only) (If the character is wizard, otherwise this feat has no use) +2 racial bonus on spellcraft FP cost: around 10 (I'm not sure) Cheers, your system seems great, but it needs some tweaking (as every system does) :P
Izodor_Shadowcaster 07-22-06, 04:34 AM	+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con. No special abilities. Favored Class Fighter. Languages the usual (no FP) Total of merely 12 FP, so LA +0? I do not think I agree with you. ;) Are all these bonusses really that much overpowering as you say. They only give you a +1 modifier on something. Is a figther with a strength score of 16 really so much weaker than a figther with one of 18? I think it is still balanced. Strength, Dexterity and Constitution bonusses are always overrated in my opinion. Of course this race is stronger that other races, but that is the power of the race, he doesn't have darkvision or anything else. Of course it is stronger than the Half-orc, but that is a problem with the Half-orc. And the ability bonusses are the only thing this race really has, so I do not agree with you. :)
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-22-06, 04:43 AM	I think physical ability scores (particularly Str) are already heavily overvalued in the existing system, and if you make too big a deal out of them like WotC has in the past, it's only ever going to keep leading to whipping boys like the Half-Orc and the Orc (which, to be fair, are entirely usable, but those disadvantages are mean and they are behind the curve in practice). As for the complaint that: No physical ability bonus can be negated with an even penalty to a mental stat. If one wants to do that, the penalty must apply to 2 stats, or the penalty must be double for one mental stat. No mental ability bonus can be nagated with an even penalty to another mental stat. If one wants to do that, the penalty must apply to 2 stats, ore the penalty must be double for one mental stat. ...that's already addressed, though it may be refined with time and testing. You can't entirely compensate any bonus with an equal penalty when the bonus costs more than the penalty gives (4/-3). And the oversized bonuses end up costing double for the first one, which, I'm not quite sure it's the best way to handle it, but it does discourage massive inflation of one score at penalty of others on the cheap, and I don't currently have a better idea for how to cut down on that without eliminating it entirely. One thing I gotta ask is why is having an advantage in physical combat any more or less important than having an advantage in magical combat? What about in noncombat situations, is there any reason those should be ignored? It seems to me that people that can handle themselves in a melee get discouraged a lot by WotC's idea of racial balance and (mostly) class balance, and when something comes out to possibly change that trend, there's a reactionary tendency to call the new melee battler option overpowered, or downright broken. I suppose this is a bit tangental, but I've got to say, if a LA +0 race with Str/Dex/Con +2 and no mental problems is the worst issue to come up, the system seems to be heading in the right direction. (Sure a setup like that is boring, but, this is a discussion of a developing crunch generation system, fluff or lack thereof can't be held against it.) Oh, Yaba, do you have Libris Mortis?
ArochanoX 07-22-06, 08:12 AM	Well, for previous 2 posters. Is the system YabaTheWhat is creating going to reflect existing races and monsters? If not, what's the use? If yes, why Hobgoblin has +1 LA? Why half-orc (albeit being very powerless), cost significantly less than other races? I just try to make this system sustain them and take also them into account. If a +2 ability bonus cost something like 10 FP, hobgoblin would be something like 25 FP (LA +1). If a physical stat bonus couln't be countered as easily by a mental stat penalty half-orc's abilities would be +0 FP and then darkvision and whatever few racial abilities it gets. The FP cost increases and gives it "more value". And with my suggested modifications, all the FP costs of existing races don't change. Is that more balanced compared to existing systems and print products? Yes. Is that more or lass balanced compared to some-one's opinion about balanced and imbalanced races? Maybe not, but who's going to gather all opinions about all races and be able to adjust them so that everyone gets what they want?
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-22-06, 08:38 AM	Well, for previous 2 posters. Is the system YabaTheWhat is creating going to reflect existing races and monsters? If not, what's the use? If yes, why Hobgoblin has +1 LA? Why half-orc (albeit being very powerless), cost significantly less than other races? Re-read the thread. Yaba has already expressed his opinion that the half-orc, orc, and hobgoblin are way underpowered for their ECLs. They're not exceptions to the system, they're balance mistakes on WotC's part. Editting a working system to take into account races that were designed poorly (rather than acknowledging they're flawed and need revision) likely just throws the system off for the races that aren't messed up. Once the FP system is finalized, perhaps we can start up a discussion of how to help them and other underpowered races, and rein in the overpowered ones, with an actual working component measure system to use, rather than just wild shots in the dark based on personal preference and bias, or (almost as bad) Savage Species.
YabaTheWhat 07-22-06, 10:42 AM	Just wondering, how many FP does a LA grant? I have a DM that is using an alternative racial creation system (feats/flaws) and so far there is nothing about LA in there. Just trying to figure out how many feats a level should trade in for, in general. Please excuse me if the LA/FP amounts have allready been discussed. I'm going to address this question first, because it has already been addressed, and apparently needs to be addressed again. In the FP system, LA is basically just a representation of part of the end result. Feature points calculate ECL directly, by using "balanced" FP ranges assiged to each ECL. Once a creature's ECL has been evaluated, you take that ECL, subtract the number of hit dice it has, and the result is the level adjustment. Remember that, when determining a creature's ECL, it is supposed to be roughly balanced with core-race PCs of equal level. The higher level a PC gets, the more powerful abilities that PC receives at each level. Therefore, FP needs to work in a similar manner, allowing more FP per ECL at higher levels than lower ones. There is no single amount of FP that will earn a generic increase or decrease in level adjustment, particularly on a creature with an unspecified number of hit dice. A corrolation between FP and XP is far more likely. The FP per ECL table is still a work in progress. (I got up to ECL = CL + 4 last night.) When it's ready, I'll host it somewhere. In the meantime, this discussion helps both by providing feedback and by bringing a number of special features to my attention, some of which I might otherwise have missed. And for reference, a level adjustment does not grant anything. Even in the existing system, LA is compensating for features the race has already been granted during its design. [complaint] Everything you're complaining about has already been addressed. See Shaggy's replies to your posts, as well as most of my responses to Boshi. Oh, Yaba, do you have Libris Mortis? Sorry, I don't. Limited free time combined with the high cost of living tends to make me picky about where I spend my income. If you think it's worth having, talk me into it via private message. My compliments on your system, I can't wait for the complete guideline you are making. A few questions: How many FPs would these abilities cost: -Regeneration, fast healing, DR? -Energy resistance (5, 10, 15, inmune altogether) -Energy vulnerability -Poison/Disease -Vulnerability to certain things (For instance, holy water) That's a lot of requests. Some of these I haven't worked on yet, so keep in mind the numbers may change as I tweak the system. Energy (or elemental) resistance is worth 1/2 FP per element per point of resistance. Immunity is worth 20 FP per element, or roughly the same as energy resistance 40. Minor vulnerability (1 hp/die) would be worth -1 FP per element. Moderate vulnerability (+50% damage) would be worth -3 FP per element, and major vulnerability (double damage) would be worth -5 FP per element. However, as a package deal, an energy or element subtype (one immunity, one vulnerability) is worth 10 FP for immunity with major vulnerability, or 14 FP for immunity with moderate vulnerability. The value of damage reduction varies based on both the amount of DR and the type of weapon needed to bypass it. The base value for DR is 12 FP per point. (DR 2/- would be worth 24 FP.) DR/epic is worth 11 FP/point, DR/alignment and DR/adamantine are worth 10 FP/point, DR/magic is worth 8 FP/point, DR/silver and DR/coldiron are worth 6 FP/point, and DR/weapontype (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning) is worth 6 FP/point. When multiple bypass methods exist, use the least expensive method to determine cost. Fast healing is worth 10 FP plus 8 FP per point. Thus fast healing 1 is worth 18 FP, fast healing 2 is worth 26 FP, etc. In addition to providing automatic stabilization during combat, fast healing guarantees that the character will never need healing between combats. Regeneration takes this even further, because the character will not die from most types of damage. Thus regeneration is worth 30 FP as a base value, plus 8 FP per point. Its value is then reduced by 5 FP per elemental vulnerability, 8 FP for magic vulnerability, 5 FP for vulnerability to silver or cold iron, 8 FP for vulnerability to a weapon type (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning), or 3 FP for vulnerability to an alignment. Regeneration may never be worth less than 30 FP. (A troll's fire/acid regen 5 would be worth 30+40-10=60 FP.) The value of poison or disease ability is determined by the save DC, the amount of ability score damage dealt, and any other crippling effects it may have (including inducing death if the ability score reaches zero). Poison and disease are always considered useable at will. For poison, take the maximum ability damage it can deal (for example, 1d6 would deal 6 points max). For every point of the save DC, the poison attack is worth 1/4 of this amount. So a 1d4/1d4 strength damage poison attack with a save DC of 16 would be worth (4+4)x16/4=32 FP. If the ability damage is lethal upon the score reaching zero, the poison attack is worth an additional 2 FP per point of max damage. Diseases are worth twice as much as poisons, because the damage repeats daily until the subject is killed or cured. Ability drain is worth twice as much as ability damage, because the drained points do not heal. Vulnerability to special substances or conditions depends on the degree of vulnerability and how common or rare the substance to which the creature is vulnerable. Because of the numerous possibilities, I will not elaborate at this time. A non-ability score provides immunity to ability damage and ability drain, which is worth 6 FP. If the non-ability exempts the creature from saves (as non-abilities often do), it is worth an additional 50 FP. If the non-ability instead makes one set of saves dependent on a different ability score, it is worth an additional 20 FP (but not the 50 FP for immunity). A creature with non-abilities in dexterity, constitution, and wisdom would be worth 156 FP, due to immunity to any condition which allows a save, as well as immunity to ability damage or drain (on those three ability scores) even when a save is not allowed. (Remember that much of this cost would be redundant with the cost of spell resistance, and one or the other would be reduced accordingly on a creature with both features.) Hope that covers everything thus far.
ArochanoX 07-22-06, 04:52 PM	Yaba, all I'm saying, that you're underestimating the value of ability modifiers, nothing more. If you think that a constant bonus to AC (like natural armor) is more powerful and therefore more valuable in FP:s than +2 Dexterity, you're off-course. I personally think that touch AC is more useful than flat-footed AC, but that's an other case. Then you say that natural armor and deflection bonus to AC are equal value. Wrong. Deflection bonus is slightly better as it grants bonus against touches and flat-footedness. Otherwise your system seems good, and you should know it. But I say this to you again. You're underestimating the value of ability modifiers in general. One thing you got good: +2 bonus cannot be completely countered by -2 penalty. But the cost of ability bonus is very low. Very low. Compare human, the most varible race out there, or heck dwarf, which is said to be the best of the core races and then compare its combat effectiveness with following, "balanced" race: +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con favored class: fighter against dwarf +2 Con. -2 Cha favored class: fighter Dwarf can see in dark, but that other race can easily afford sunrods that are better than dwarf darkvision. Let's say they are both fighter 2:s (to get most feats :D) Their feat's are power attack, weapon focus and improved initiative. On average, they use 2 points of BAB for power attack and use some 2-handed weapon. Let's assume, that every ability score is 13, so it's easier. Dwarf: to hit: +2 dmg: 2d6 + 5 AC: armor + 1 HP: 15 + 4 Creature: to hit: +3 dmg: 2d6 + 7 AC: armor + 2 HP: 15 + 4 Comparsion: to hit: Creature hits 5% more often than Dwarf. damage: Creature deals 17% more damage than Dwarf. AC: creature is 5% harder to hit than Dwarf Hp: creature has the same hp as Dwarf I know, I know, combat isn't everything and dwarves have some neat abilities this creature doesn't. Oh yeah? DnD is most often about combat of some sort. In a special occasion when dwarf (or any other creature) gets to use its magnificent, specialized abilities once or twice in a whole campaing, the Creature represented here, will clearly outshine dwarf (and any other creature) in combat prowess. IN EVERY ASPECT! At higher levels (say 10th+) the bonuses aren't so clear anymore, but then there are LA buyoff and other systems to accumulate this. Let's see following comparsion: (the creature presented before has LA +1) They're ecl 3 (to lower the difference in Hp). They have the same feats as before. Dwarf has one bonus feat (weapon specialization even though he doesn't meet the prerequirements.) Dwarf: to hit: +3 (only 2 for power attack) dmg: 2d6 + 7 AC: armor + 1 HP: 21 + 6 Creature: to hit: +3 (2 for power attack) dmg: 2d6 + 7 AC: armor + 2 HP: 15 + 4 Now we are somewhat more balanced. Comparsion to hit: Creature hits as often as Dwarf. damage: Creature deals as much damage as Dwarf. AC: creature is 5% harder to hit than Dwarf. Hp: dwarf has 42% more hp than creature. Note that as before said, these bonuses are this big only at lower levels. Later, the bonuses will have lesser impact. I say that the LA +1 version is more balanced, what say you? Should the FP system reflect this? And again, this is just a basic experiment to break a system. I'm not trying to offend you, Yaba, but to help you. If one won't focus on one thing, and wants to create races that have multiple dimensions, applications and nature. And that have flavorful, rich special abilities and such, this system is great and becoming more and more finished product. But just don't live in a dream where everyone wants to create balanced (that is non min-maxed) races. To help you, YabaTheWhat, I strongly suggest that you give ability score bonuses (and penalties too) higher FP values compared to other traits and abilities. That change won't break it. You can still create those Core Races as you did before.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-22-06, 06:29 PM	ArochanoX, you seem to be leaving out some key problems with your assumption that the +2/+2/+2 race is better than a dwarf. Namely Stability, +2 to saves vs all spells and spell-like effects, and, yes, the darkvision you so flippantly tossed out. These will come up often. Damned near every fight if the DM has anything up his sleeve beyond *attack* *damage* *attack* *damage* *attack* *damage* *next monster* (and any competent DM will have a lot more than that in store). That sunrod you mentioned? That takes up a hand - theoretical Mr +2/+2/+2 actually can't use a two-handed weapon while he's using that. Any time the two get into a fight in the dark (often, more than 50% of the time in my experience), the darkvision-lacking +2/+2/+2 race is either swinging with a 50% miss chance, loss of ability to make AoOs, loss of Dex to AC, and -2 generic to AC; or losing half his power attack damage and about 1/3 of his Str damage, for using a one-hander and holding his silly sunrod. I could mention poison resistance as well, but that does come up fairly seldom, maybe once every 10-15 sessions. Still, that's a lot more than once per campaign (for most campaigns), and when it does come up it's a powerful advantage. Same with the conditional dodge and attack bonuses. Listen, if you're going to say this phantom fault in the system of yours beats the dwarf hands-down, you can't prove the point by stripping away virtually all of the dwarf's myriad and frequently-invoked advantages. It proves nothing but that if you severely handicap a dwarf, the theoretical new race has a slight edge. And to that I say Duh!
Kresalak 07-22-06, 07:30 PM	Consider stating the bonuses of this theoretical race as +1 attack/damage, +1 dodge AC/+1 reflex saves, +1 to Fort saves, and the improved toughness feat. The Dwarf recieves +2 to saves vs spells and SLAs, which is pretty much every save that matters; this pretty much cancels out the +1 Fort/reflex/improved toughness; it's just that good. The +4 AC vs giants/+1 attack vs goblinoids covers a lot of common melee enemies at low and mid levels (goblin, hobgoblin, bugbear, troll, all giants, ogre...), and should be worth the rest of the Dex bonus. By the time such opponents are no longer common, +2 Dex isn't worth too much anyway. So now you're comparing +2 Str (+1 attack/damage, slightly improved carrying capacity) vs darkvision, stone related abilities, +2 to poison, stability, and weapon familiarity. I'd say those are equal, myself.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-22-06, 07:38 PM	Thanks for the input, Kresalak. I'm tempted to go over to CO and leave a link asking for feedback from the regs in general. If anyone can number-crunch it's them. Think I'll wait till this is a bit further along, though.
Wolghan 07-23-06, 02:47 AM	@Yaba: Hey man, I thank you for even responding to my questions... I'm sure you haven't thought of everything (Or else you would've posted the set of rules already), but I guess you could take this as a way of doing things you may not have thought about before... Either way, thank you very much! :) Btw, have you given any thought to traits such as the Warforged's Living Construct type?
YabaTheWhat 07-25-06, 04:33 PM	Btw, have you given any thought to traits such as the Warforged's Living Construct type? Any type other than humanoid or animal has a base value of 3 FP, for immunity to humanoid/animal only spells, and better options for the Alter Self spell. The values of other immunities and abilities provided by creature types (such as weapon proficiencies, darkvision, etc) are calculated separately, as are the benefits of racial hit dice. On another note, I noticed something unpleasantly interesting when contrasting my FP scales against core character classes. The classes themselves are not balanced. Many people will certainly not be surprised to hear that spellcaster classes become significantly more powerful at high levels. At 2nd level, wizards trailed the whole pack, slightly behind rogues. Most of the other classes were about balanced. By level 10, druids, clerics, and sorcerers (in that order) had a major lead, with wizards bringing up the middle, and all the weapon-combat classes lagging behind. Regardless of how I valued spells, the pattern persisted. At best, I was able to bring wizards on par with melee classes by giving their spells almost no value (L0=1FP, L1=2FP, L2=3FP, etc, L9=10FP). Obvously values that low make no sense at all. The reason the problem occurs is that melee classes gain their benefits in a nearly-linear progression (with FP per level increasing by an average of 1 FP every 1-2 levels), while spellcasting classes increase in power exponentially (each level has 10-20% greater power than the previous level). Here is the compromise I reached: ¤ The FP progression itself is nearly linear, in order to avoid outclassing typical melee classes. ¤ Any individual spell or spell-like ability, useable once per day, is worth 1 FP plus 2 FP per spell level (making a 4th-level spell 9 FP). Anyone with any spells or spell-like abilities also pays 2 FP per caster level for the highest caster level they have. So a single 5th-level spell at will would cost 9x2 FP for the caster level plus 11 FP for the spell itself. Adding a second spell at the same level and a spell at 3rd level would then cost an additional 11 FP and 7 FP respectively. This applies only to individual spells, not casting ability as a casting class of a particular level. ¤ Creatures that cast as a class of a particular level get a package deal. They pay 8 FP per caster level, plus the cost of two spells at each spell level they can cast (or only 1 spell at the highest level if they can only cast 1 spell at that level). As a sidenote, I now understand how the authors of Unearthed Arcana arrived at the scaling for their mana system. I consider the UA mana system unbalanced in favor of high-level spells, and thus am not particularly pleased with the compromise FP values for spell-like abilities, but in this case a perfect system would require rebuilding D&D from the ground up.
Wolghan 07-26-06, 02:46 AM	Anyone with any spells or spell-like abilities also pays 2 FP per caster level for the highest caster level they have. So a single 5th-level spell at will would cost 9x2 FP for the caster level plus 11 FP for the spell itself. Adding a second spell at the same level and a spell at 3rd level would then cost an additional 11 FP and 7 FP respectively. You worded that kinda funny... Do you mean anyone with spells or sla at will pay that? Also, you mean they pay 2 FP per caster level for the highster caster level they have or for the minimum caster level they need to be to cast that spell?
internerdj 07-26-06, 08:25 AM	Yaba, I like your system, I'm not sure I would apply it to class balance though. It seems like a very good guideline for new race creation. I am very interested in seeing the end result of this. I have some races that I would like to write but am unsure where they would fit. Do psionic abilities sit at the same point cost as a magic ability?
YabaTheWhat 07-26-06, 08:43 AM	You worded that kinda funny... Do you mean anyone with spells or sla at will pay that? Also, you mean they pay 2 FP per caster level for the highster caster level they have or for the minimum caster level they need to be to cast that spell? Not just at will. Any race with spell-like abilities or spellcasting ability. It's the only way to compensate for the minimal difference in cost of the spells themselves. Many spells increase in duration and/or power as the level of the person casting them increases, so including a cost based on caster level isn't entirely outrageous. As an example, I'll reevaluate the gnome. Enough has changed to warrant it. GNOMES • +2 Constitution, –2 Strength. [1 FP] • Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. [0 FP] • Gnome base land speed is 20 feet. [0 FP] • Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. [0.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. [1 FP] • Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. [0.5 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids. [1 FP] • +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. [0.5 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. [0 FP] In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description. [See Below] • Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute) [1 FP]. A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights [1 FP], ghost sound [1 FP], prestidigitation [1 FP]. Caster level 1st [2 FP]; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level. • Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. [0 FP] Total = 13.5 FP I decided to make craft and profession skills worth half. (Knowledge and perform skills still have full value.) The first-level SLA speak with animals is still reduced to 1/3 value (as before) because of the added limitation that it only works on burrowing mammals. Since a first-level spell is now only worth 3 FP, rather than the 6 FP I had originally used for first-level spells, the restricted SLA is now worth 1 FP rather than 2 FP. The zero-level SLAs are also worth 1 FP each rather than 2 FP. However, the gnome has a caster level of 1, which costs him 2 FP. This makes his spell-like abilities cost 6 FP total, where they cost 8 FP total in the older design (as shown in my first post).
YabaTheWhat 07-26-06, 09:20 AM	Yaba, I like your system, I'm not sure I would apply it to class balance though. It seems like a very good guideline for new race creation. I am very interested in seeing the end result of this. I have some races that I would like to write but am unsure where they would fit. Do psionic abilities sit at the same point cost as a magic ability? To be honest, I don't have a lot of familiarity with psionics. It's something I'll need to add in later. From a brief glance at the SRD psionics rules, I'd estimate that psionic casters would have to pay a certain amount per power point, and an additional cost for each racial psionic power available to them. They would probably need to pay for caster level as well. However, each individual component of the cost would be slightly lower, in order to make each psionic power have the same cost overall as a spell-like ability. The reason I tested the feature point system on classes, rather than just races, comes from the primary function of ECL and LA, and is best expressed by the Savage Species acid test. A playable monster, when properly balanced, should be roughly equal in power to a PHB race with class levels. For example, the ogre has 4 hit dice and a +2 level adjustment, for an ECL (effective character level) of 6+CL (class levels). Theoretically, a first-level ogre fighter should roughly equal a seventh-level human fighter in overall power, and a seventh-level ogre fighter should roughly equal a thirteenth-level human fighter in power.
Phalse_One 07-26-06, 11:13 AM	Yabba, I didn't read every bit of every post, so ignore this if this was already covered. You really should rethink your poison/disease costs. Unless disease has an incubation period of 1 minute or less, any disease is significantly less effective than poison. Who cares that your foe will die in 3 weeks if he fails about 10 saving throws against your disease. More than 95% of combats take place in less than 3 minutes (many of them in less than 1 minute). So poison's immediate ability damage is more useful than diseases ability damage after 1d3 days (or whatever the incubation is). Sure if you have a really nasty archfoe who you want to kill no matter how long it takes, maybe the long-term damage from disease is ok, but the longer it takes to kill you, the more time you have to get healing/recovery of some kind. I think that disease-inflicting abilities are nearly negligible in crunch impact (with some exceptions, such as mummy rot, and other 'instant' diseases.
YabaTheWhat 07-26-06, 11:43 AM	Disease is one of those requests which I had not yet covered, so the entry is preliminary. I'll consider basing the value of disease on an incubation period modifier (such as value halved for each day before the initial effect). Thanks for the input. ___________ I have an idea for how to make progressions exponential for all classes, rather than just spellcasting classes, but I'm not sure if it will work as planned. A while ago, I worked on a mana system of my own, using an exponential progression (rather than a linear one that appears in Unearthed Arcana) for determining the cost of spells at increasing levels. My plan is to apply a similar principle to the feature points (FP) system. To make the system balance, I will need to apply similar exponential progressions to base attack bonus (BAB), ability score adjustments, and spell-like abilities.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-26-06, 11:53 AM	Yaba, when you get to work on diseases, remember to take into account diseases (and disease-like abilities) that can be beneficial to the target and harm the inflicter. Nothing like being a natural lycanthrope, beating an equal enemy to a standstill and he gets away, then he comes back a lycanthrope himself and stomps your ass.
Wakazashi 07-26-06, 12:10 PM	:confused: my dm knows yabas fp system and he claims that a race with +20 str con and -20 int cha is over powered he says that for each bonus above 2 you pay for twice and each penalty below -2 you only pay for once. i don't get that how is +4 better than -4 is bad?
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-26-06, 12:38 PM	:confused: my dm knows yabas fp system and he claims that a race with +20 str con and -20 int cha is over powered he says that for each bonus above 2 you pay for twice and each penalty below -2 you only pay for once. i don't get that how is +4 better than -4 is bad? It's because if you penalize a score too much, it ends up becoming mostly irrelevant. An ability score penalized by -4 or more encourages a universal dump stat, and with mandatory ability score minimums, having a huge penalty isn't much different from having just a moderately big penalty. Take a race with -4 to Int, for example. Virtually nobody is going to bother with Int on that race - they'll just put their lowest score into Int (giving them a Int of 6 going by elite array), play a character that doesn't need it, and ignore it. Give that same race a -8 to Int instead, and it doesn't really have any noticable effect compared to -4: again, virtually nobody will use Int for characters of that race anyway, they'll just dump it (Int 3, due to the mandatory minimums) and ignore it. Make it a -20 instead, they still end up with Int 3, nothing has changed. The harder you penalize an ability score, the more it becomes a useless ability that's ignored, and doesn't really hurt. The opposite doesn't apply to bonuses - there's no upper limit for them, and nobody ignores their strong points. That is why +4 is better than -4 is bad.
GothiousRex 07-26-06, 06:19 PM	is there any factor for handling redundancy? example Elven Fighter Martial Weapon Proficiency overlaps Elven weapon proficiencies. also is it reasonable from an FP standpoint to allow Elven fighter-types to sub Weapon Focus for Proficiency for 1 weapon? all weapons?
YabaTheWhat 07-27-06, 09:51 AM	is there any factor for handling redundancy? example Elven Fighter Martial Weapon Proficiency overlaps Elven weapon proficiencies. also is it reasonable from an FP standpoint to allow Elven fighter-types to sub Weapon Focus for Proficiency for 1 weapon? all weapons? There are factors to handle redundancy within the racial traits themselves. However, there is intentionally no compensation for racial features that are redundant with class features. The effect is similar to multiclassing. A fighter 3 / barbarian 2 gets simple & martial weapon proficiencies from both classes, as well as light and medium armor and shield proficiencies. Multiple classes do not receive additional benefits from redundant proficiencies, so neither should race/class combinations.
GothiousRex 07-27-06, 03:21 PM	most of the following has been discussed in the Elves in 3.5 but... the change from 2nd Ed AD&D to D&D 3.x with elves regarding the replacement of a racial bonus +1 to hit with sword/bow with Martial Weapon Proficiency with those weapons plus now rapier. As mentioned in the other thread this gives something to elven non-fighter types at the expense of the elven fighter types. before Elven Magic-User -3 to hit with sword (-4 non-prof +1 race) now Elven Wizard +0 to hit same with Thief -> Rogue and other non Fighters whereas Fighter before +1 to hit ( +0 Prof +1 Race) now Fighter +0 to hit I am uncertain whether this was an intentional change. IMO Elven fighters are worse off than Human fighters. The Dex-for-Con trade benefits them short term where the AC bonus and range attack bonus outweighs the lost hit points, but the lost hit points are more significant at later levels. A Human fighter will have the extra Feat whereas the Elf fighter gets bunches of situational bonuses/abilities. Combined with the increased ability of elven non-fighter classes, this really discourages a player from choosing an Elven fighter. In my games, I allow a substitution of Proficiency for 1 weapon to Weapon Focus for the Elven fighter types. My question was from an FP point of view is this reasonable? Also not all class combination abilities are redundant and lost though. example. Barbarian Uncanny Dodge stacks with Rogue Uncanny Dodge giving them Improved Uncanny Dodge in place of it. So there is a precident set.
Wolghan 07-27-06, 03:46 PM	I was re-reading your reply about poisons, Yaba, as I am creating a race that has it. Poison's DC is usually Con-based, which means that usually this is not a fixed value... A PC from x-race could have 18 to Con so their poison DC would get to be 14 (if we take it as 10 + con mod) and another PC from the same x-race could have 10 to Con and his poison DC would be just 10. Also, I've seen that poisons are usually 10 + HD/2 + Con Mod... In fact, check out Poison (The druid spell), it's a 3rd level spell with nasty ability dmg (-1d10 to Con initial and secondary damage). If you had this race that had poison as a sla at will, you'd end up having (And correct me if I'm wrong because I don't entirely get how you calculate costs for spells) 5x2 FP for the caster level and 7 FP for the spell itself. That's 17 FP for a very deadly poison at will...
YabaTheWhat 07-27-06, 10:27 PM	In fact, check out Poison (The druid spell), it's a 3rd level spell with nasty ability dmg (-1d10 to Con initial and secondary damage). If you had this race that had poison as a sla at will, you'd end up having (And correct me if I'm wrong because I don't entirely get how you calculate costs for spells) 5x2 FP for the caster level and 7 FP for the spell itself. That's 17 FP for a very deadly poison at will... No, the 17 FP is for the spell Poison once per day, including the caster level cost.
YabaTheWhat 07-27-06, 10:33 PM	My question was from an FP point of view is this reasonable? My answer is that you can change what you want and reevaluate their FP cost. Feature points do not regulate what you can or cannot do, only how powerful the race becomes if you do it. Giving a non-feat (named or unnamed) +1 bonus (and not proficiency) with each of the 4 racial weapons would cost about the same as giving the proficiencies, so if you want to make that trade on your own custom version of elves, go ahead. If you want to keep them LA+0, don't give them Weapon Focus for all four weapons as bonus feats, because that would be worth significantly more (four bonus feats, each starting a feat chain, not to mention requiring proficiency as a prerequisite). Personally I would just give them familiarity with the 4 racial weapons instead. Automatic racial weapon proficiencies never struck me as a good idea. What I would not do is say, "If elves get the proficiencies from a class, they instead get something better rather than a redundant proficiency." Giving them options means they have to pay for the most expensive option, so any class not getting the improved benefit (including their favored class) will lose out. If proficiencies were supposed to stack that way, they would be listed that way in the player's handbook.
Wolghan 07-28-06, 12:55 AM	No, the 17 FP is for the spell Poison once per day, including the caster level cost. Well... I was just adding that part for you to consider it when calculating FP for poison. With your system, the same poison from the spell would be 20 x (Let's assume DC 16 even though someone with the spell should have this DC much higher) 16/4 which equals 80. Now, you also added that when the ability dmg could be lethal upon the score reaching zero to add 2 FP per point of max damage, so that would add 20x2 = 40. So you end up having a trait worth 120 FP. Poison once per day is 17 FP, I'm not sure by what I'd have to multiply it to make it at will, but I guess you see where I'm going with this...
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-31-06, 04:36 AM	Hey Yaba, I've been thinking. Imagine a chameleonic sort of race that doesn't get racial features. Instead it gets a pool of FP, and the ability to invest and reinvest them on racial features as it sees fit (except for those FP used up by the ability to change its features, of course). I'm thinking maybe one change of FP investment per day... at-will would be cool, but I think that might get out of hand in a hurry. I know the Feature Point system is still raw and unfinished, and much may be changed before it's finalized, but from what you've learned in this project thus far, do you think a race like that could be created and consistently balanced against other races? Nothing immediately jumps out at me as a reason this shouldn't work, but somehow I still get the impression it could be problematic.
YabaTheWhat 07-31-06, 08:30 AM	You're right about use-at-will being a problem. Basically that would give it unlimited options, and it would end up being worth a number of FP equal to about half of the total possible options it could take (or 5-10 times its versatile FP allotment). One change per day, selected each morning, would be worth about twice the allotment. A more limited change could be measured against the Alter Self spell.
Death_Knight 07-31-06, 08:38 AM	Okay, since this thread is now quite long, I will admit that I did not read every post, I tried to just skim through and see where it talked about the various abilities. I have created a race and would like it to be a LA+0 race, but want to make sure that it is truly on par with the rest of the races in the players handbook. So on those thoughts here is my analysis so far. I couldn't find some abilities, so it is not complete. Daylian Racial Traits • +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Strength, -2 Charisma. Hardy and Graceful, they are not as strong as most others their size as they use their speed to their advantage, and are introverts that feel uncomfortable around others, with the exception of their life mate. This seems to be close to even, so I would say around 1 maybe 2 FP • Medium: As medium creatures, Daylian have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. 0 FP • Daylian base land speed is 40 feet. 3 FP. This is what I gathered when you were discussing the Kobold, but I am not sure if I interperated it right. • Split Personality: A Daylian has two personalities, with the second granting the Daylian additional abilities, but the Daylian must be careful not to let his second soul do too much, as it is violent and alignment is one step closer to evil than the Daylian’s. (This affects Detect Alignment spells as well as weapon special abilities) It is a free action to give the second soul control of the body, and to get control back, but if the second soul is in the middle of battle it is more difficult. To gain back control of the body, it is a check of your level + your wisdom modifier versus a DC of 20 plus 5 for each additional enemy within sight. A second soul is provoked very easily, and will treat unfriendly NPC’s as an enemy, as well as causing everyone he or she speaks to move one step closer to hostile than they were before. (Note: They only move one step per hour, no matter how many times you talk to them) When the second soul is in command, it will attack anyone it perceives to be an enemy within one round as long as they are not unarmed or they don’t attack first. The second soul has made the same vows the primary soul has made, and will not break these vows willingly, such as poverty, peace and the like. This was put it mainly to add more roleplay, but is kind of a penalty since an evil killer can take control of a good aligned characters body, so I would say -1 FP • Second Soul: A Daylian gains special abilities in combat when the second soul is in command. These include an immunity to fear, gaining a +4 bonus to Strength and Dexterity. Couldn't find immunity to fear, so I will guess around 3, and the abilities are about +16, so +19. But it is only active around 1/2 the time in combat (Due to things in the background but didn't want to post that here) during play testing I did, so I would say +10. • Dragon Blood: Daylian are of Dragon descent and are affected by spells and the like as if they were purely dragon. • Celestial Blood: Daylian are of Celestial descent and are affected by spells and the like as if they were purely celestial. • Outsider(Incarnum): Daylian are outsiders with the incarnum subtype (see page 169 Magic of Incarnum. I don't know if this has any effect really, besides that most resurections spells don't work due to the fact that they are an outsider, but no breathing or sleeping seems to balance that, so I would say +0 FP • Symbiotic: Daylian are symbiotic creatures and require at least 4 hours with their “host” throughout each day. They also cannot be apart from their host for longer than 8 hours without suffering effects. If they are away longer than that, they immediately take a -4 drain to constitution, with an additional -1 for every additional hour, down to a minimum of 1. They will then regain one point of the lost constitution per hour spent with the host up to the amount the had before the drain. If on the host, the Daylian cannot be targeted, but area of effect spells still affect him or her. Pretty Stiff penalty in my eyes and in the playtesting I have done, so I would say around a -10 • Vow of Peace: Daylian do not gain the benefits of the feat Vow of Peace, but must obey its stipulations and are treated as having the feat if needed in a prerequisite. (For example, Vow of Nonviolence) Not gaining the benefits but having the following the requirements seems a penalty, but having it for requirements I thought negated that so +0 FP • Magical Lineage: Due to the Daylian’s strong magical heritage, they may use Detect Magic at will. It is at will, but a pretty weak spell, so since I couldn't find anything on this, so I will guess 5 FP • Greater Sight: Due to the second soul, a Daylian has exceptional sight, giving them Blindsight 10 all the time. 12 FP • Wings: While not able to use their wings to sustain flight, the Daylian are able to use strong leg muscles in conjunction with the gliding power of their wings to gain the next best thing. They gain a +5 on jump checks and there is no maximum distance jump for either forward or upward movement, though it may take more than one round to complete the jump. If the wings are spread, a Daylian takes up the area of a large creature, and gains the ability to gain poor maneuverability, with the exceptions that you must keep the same speed or lower as the previous round of gliding, you may not glide upwards, and each round you drop at least 5 feet, whether or not you choose to head down due to gravity. On the first round of the glide, you may start off with any speed equal or less than your maximum land speed. Jump +5 seemed to be around +3 (Kobolds have +4 on Handle Animal and Ride, so I thought a +3 for 5 in one was fair) but the gliding is worse than true flying, but still bery good. So I put it at +7 since it has poor manueverability. • Weak Immune System: With few natural diseases among themselves and no assassins poisoning others, the Daylian never really built up a strong immune system. Daylian take a -4 penalty against all poisons and diseases. Once again, couldn't find anything solid so I penciled it in at -3 • Weak Underbelly: Because of the scales that cover the Daylian they have only a thin frail layer of skin beneath their scales. Acid and high power water easily seep in between the scales, and can seriously damage a Daylian. They take double damage from water and acid damage. You talked about it, but once agian nothing concrete, so I pencil in again at -10 (Minus 5 for each) • 2D Sight: As they can make themselves 2D, they also can use this along with a little magic to see through thin walls. They can see accurate details through walls 1 inch thick or thinner, and blurry details through walls less than 5 inches thick. In the first case, the first 5 feet are clear, and the next 5 are blurry, and in the second case, the first 5 are blurry, and that is as far as they can see. Very Weak since most walls are at least a foot in this day in age, for dungeons and castles, and a listen check can often be more effective, so I put it in at 3 FP • Joining the Host: A Daylian can go to its 2D form on the host as a move action as long as it is touching some of the hosts skin or scales. (Not armor or clothes) It then may exit the host as part of any move action, or it takes a move action to come out. (You could come out and move 30 feet as one action or come out as part of a jump, but it would take the same move action to come out and be adjacent to the host. 0 FP That wraps it up. I added it up to 21. Oops, looks like it was a little more powerful than I wanted, but I will see how you add up stuff before I change anything. And I don't know if 21 would qualify for a +1 LA, but it seems to me right now that it is more powerful than a race from the players handbook. Thanks Yaba for all the work you have put in. Truly great stuff.
YabaTheWhat 07-31-06, 09:42 AM	I would have preferred to handle custom races in their own threads rather than here, but I guess it doesn't hurt anything in the long run. __________ ¤ The ability score adjustments are worth +4+4-3-3, for a total of +2 FP. ¤ Medium size is worth 0 FP ¤ The speed boost by 10 ft is worth 6 FP ¤ Split Personality looks about right at -1 FP. It only acts as a penalty if the character needs to run from battle, or is attacking someone who shouldn't be an enemy. ¤ The +4 boosts to strength and dexterity will be worth a total of 28 FP as the system currently stands. That's +8 for each individual boost, and +12 for the highest adjustment (dex total +6). Immunity to fear would be worth 3 FP as a minor immunity (also available as a paladin class feature). ¤ Their blood types are confusing. While they each provide immunity to humanoid-only spells (3 FP), they conflict with each other. A creature cannot be 100% dragon and 100% outsider. (Celestial is a subset of outsider, so that's okay.) Note that the Outsider type loads on a lot of extra benefits, including weapon proficiency (all simple/martial: 11 FP), darkvision (3 FP), and not needing food or sleep (3 FP). The dragon type provides immunity to sleep effects (3 FP). Fortunately, the major benefits of both creature types come from racial hit dice, which they do not have. ¤ Symbiotic requires explanation. Do you mean they physically latch onto another party member? Would this render them both helpless for the duration, or would they simply be attached? Also, it isn't ability drain if they can recover from it, and recovering from constitution damage at 1 point an hour is actually much better than most races can accomplish. I'm not sure how to rate this one without more information. ¤ Unless they have to obey the vow of peace under both personalities, it isn't really a penalty. However, it isn't much of a bonus either. Let's say 1 FP for now. ¤ Magical Lineage has actually been covered, though perhaps not in this thread. It's a zero-level spell at will. Based on the spell's normal duration, this ability would be worth 6 FP. ¤ The wings need to be reworded, because it says they get poor maneuverability before saying that they can glide. The +5 skill bonus is worth 2.5 FP (0.5 FP per +1 skill bonus). Gliding is worth 3 FP base, plus 1 FP for each of the following conditions in which it can be used to its full potential: fatigue, exhaustion, paralysis, unconsciousness, and carrying a medium or heavier load. ¤ Penalties are never worth as much as their respective bonuses, to prevent gouging penalties for extra feature points. Since a +1 bonus vs poison or disease is worth 0.5 FP, the total equivalent bonuses would be worth 4 FP, so the actual -4 penalties vs poison and disease are worth -2 FP total. ¤ The explanation for taking double damage from water (which rarely deals damage, btw) and acid is flimsy at best. Still, this is going on the what, not the why. Presuming that the "water" spell category actually includes some damage spells (because if it doesn't that part of the penalty is entirely negated), -5 FP each for double damage elemental vulnerability agrees with the listing at the top of page 3. ¤ 2D sight actually contains 2 abilities. First, they can make themselves 2D. What? This was never mentioned before. What benefits or drawbacks does it have? Second, the sight through walls. Is this useable at will? Because seeing an ambush on the other side of an inch-thick door sounds like an awefully handy advantage. Let's say 6 FP for now. ¤ About time you got to the part about the host. This should be listed prior to any benefits or drawbacks relating to it, and it needs more details. Since they don't appear to gain benefits directly from this ability, I'll leave it alone for now. ________________ Feel free to add this up as appropriate. They definitely do not look like LA+0.
Shaggy_Shaggs 07-31-06, 09:52 AM	You're right about use-at-will being a problem. Basically that would give it unlimited options, and it would end up being worth a number of FP equal to about half of the total possible options it could take (or 5-10 times its versatile FP allotment). One change per day, selected each morning, would be worth about twice the allotment. A more limited change could be measured against the Alter Self spell. So, a 1/day at a set time FP reassignment, for a pool of say, 10 FP, would work out to a 30 FP race (10 FP to work with, 20 FP for the rearrangement ability)? Also, do you think such an ability would tend to be worth the same, more, or less as a template rather than a race? (Assuming the FP reassignment applies only to the FP granted by the template, and not those used up by the base race's own features.)
Izodor_Shadowcaster 07-31-06, 10:13 AM	I will just write down what happened. I was looking in my d20 future book and I noticed something. The mutation point system. It looks almost the same as this feature point system and many point are exaclty the same. I will give examples, these examples are also in the srd so I may give them. This is from the SRD FUTUREMUTATIONS ECHOLOCATOR [MAJOR] You develop the ability to absorb sound waves and translate them into mental images that accurately portray the surrounding environment. This ability is similar to a bat’s ability to operate and hunt in total darkness via echolocation. MP Cost: 5. Benefit: You gain the blindsight ability out to a range of 60 feet. Here you can see that blindsight 60 feet is 5 MP. I think I read in this post that Yaba gives 6 FP, this is almost the same and I think we should use this. ABILITY DECAY [DRAWBACK] Your body or mind suffers from some marked deformity or deterioration. MP Value: 4. Drawback: One of your ability scores (your choice) permanently decreases by 2. You cannot apply this drawback to an ability score of 3 or less. Special: You may take this drawback multiple times. Its effects stack This is interesting, because this tells us that one decrease in any (not a difference between mental or physical abilities)ability grants a -4 on MP. This is almost the same as the -3 Yaba gives. I showed you this to tell everyone that WOtC made at least some system that looks really much like this one for creating "races". I hope Yaba can use this in creating his system. It seems rather helpfull. I will give more interesting examples: WINGS [MAJOR] You sprout a pair of birdlike or batlike wings. MP Cost: 6. Benefit: Your wings grant a natural fly speed of 60 feet (average maneuverability). REDUCED SPEED [DRAWBACK] You are unable to move as quickly as normal due to various mutations and deformities. MP Value: 3. Drawback: Reduce your speed by 5 feet. This speed decrease also applies to any natural burrow, climb, fly, or swim speed you might have. Special: You may take this drawback multiple times. Its effects stack. SCENT [MINOR] You can detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell. You can also identify familiar odors the way humans do familiar sights. MP Cost: 2. Benefit: You gain the scent special ability. DARKVISION [MINOR] You gain darkvision. MP Cost: 3. Benefit: You can see in total darkness out to a range of 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only but is otherwise like normal sight. LIGHT SENSITIVITY [DRAWBACK] Your eyes cannot adjust to bright light. MP Value: 1. Drawbacks: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight) blinds you for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks as long as you remainin the affected area. !This ability is like the powerfull build ability! We can use this!!! ENLARGED FORM [MAJOR] You grow, becoming an freakishly large specimen of your kind. MP Cost: 6. Benefits: You become as large as your size category allows (8 feet tall for Medium-size characters, 4 feet tall for Small characters). However, you function in many ways as if you were one size category larger. Whenever you are subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), you are treated as one size larger when it is advantageous to you. You are also considered to be one size larger when determining whether special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect you. You can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty (for example, a Medium-size character with this mutation can wield a Large weapon one-handed). This mutation does not change your face or reach.
Alynn 07-31-06, 10:39 AM	I've been half watching this thread, and one thing really occured to me, you could use this to make pretty balanced savage progressions for just about anything. It seems by trend that a default race has between 10-14 fp, using that as a base you could take the entirety of the fp value and divide by 10-14 whichever is easiest to calculate. Then just give 10-14 new fp abilities per level. The biggest issue would be ability adjustments and they (for all intents and purposes) are exponential in nature, so it would be possible to just have a stat adjustment on a level. Actually with the exponential gain of ability scores, it is quite possible that the player will be behind on the powercurve considering that in extreme cases a single +2 could be worth 20 or more fp. So in those extreme cases, such as dragons, this system wouldn't work that well at all. Yaba have you compared your system with any 3.5 savage progressions (such as the half dragon progression on this site) to see if it works like I think it might?
YabaTheWhat 07-31-06, 02:33 PM	Mutation Points I haven't looked at the mutation points system. From what you've posted thus far, there are some similarities and some differences. For example, they're giving 60 ft blindsight for slightly less cost than Powerful Build. My system starts with 5 ft blindsight and works outwards. It will be good for examination, but probably about as helpful as the material in Unearthed Arcana. Savage ProgressionBoth this system and savage progression are based on the idea that race benefits can be compared to class benefits, so the compatibility in this case is intentional. Races will not get a continuous 10-13 FP per level. That is the allotment that does not require a level adjustment or racial hit dice. I am currently calculating FP allotments for higher ECLs in conjunction with numerous other factors. The number of feature points allowed will scale upward as the ECL increases, because classes (particularly spellcasting classes) experience a degree of exponential power growth, and the race's power needs to keep up.
Ninetails Demon 08-01-06, 02:19 AM	Have you gotten to the point of LA +2 races? If so, could you give a breakdown of the Githyanki and Githzerai races and how they would be adjusted in your system? Perhaps the lizardfolk and troglodyte also, to represent racial HD? Thanks :)
WhrenKehrsyn 08-02-06, 01:33 AM	I was wondering about the 'Do not need to breathe' trait of Air Genasi. That always struck me as a pretty potent ability as its essentially immunity to things like choking cloud and the like. Id like to know how the ability would accrue points in this system
YabaTheWhat 08-02-06, 09:41 AM	Have you gotten to the point of LA +2 races? If so, could you give a breakdown of the Githyanki and Githzerai races and how they would be adjusted in your system? Perhaps the lizardfolk and troglodyte also, to represent racial HD? Thanks :) I had everything through ECL=4+CL, but hit a snag at higher levels which required revisions to the system. Are Githyanki and Githzerai in the SRD (system reference document)? If not, I won't post an evaluation here, because they're copyrighted material. When the revisions are finished, I'll try to remember your request for lizardfolk & troglodyte evaluations. I was wondering about the 'Do not need to breathe' trait of Air Genasi. That always struck me as a pretty potent ability as its essentially immunity to things like choking cloud and the like. Id like to know how the ability would accrue points in this system Not needing to breathe counts as two immunities. It provides immunity to cloud-based effects (such as poison clouds), and immunity to suffocation (drowning, vaccuum, etc). Both of these are relatively infrequent, and probably worth 3-4 FP each, so that not needing to breathe would be worth 6 FP. It's a nice benefit, but not game breaking.
Ogrebear 08-09-06, 01:52 PM	This is a very very interesting system. I agree what what you said about Orcs and Half Orcs and i apologise if you have posted this elsewhere (probably on one the Orc threads i have posted on too!) but how would you 'fix' the Orc and Half orc to bring them intoline with the 10FP-14FP the other basic races get? Also are the Sharakim worth LA +1? Wizards Stats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=3)
YabaTheWhat 08-09-06, 02:29 PM	This is a very very interesting system. Thanks.I agree what what you said about Orcs and Half Orcs and i apologise if you have posted this elsewhere (probably on one the Orc threads i have posted on too!) but how would you 'fix' the Orc and Half orc to bring them intoline with the 10FP-14FP the other basic races get? To start off, give both orcs and half-orcs +2 constitution. That's another 4 FP each, bringing the half-orc to 5 FP and the full orc to 8 FP. (Light sensitivity is now worth -2 FP rather than the originally posted -1 FP.) Next, give them both +2 to intimidate for another 1 FP. Boost the full orc's darkvision to 120 ft for another 1 FP, and they're settled at 10 FP. The half orc, at this point, is at 6 FP. All his features reflect the orc parent, so we could pull something from his human side, but it would be better to make them unique. Give half-orcs a +2 morale bonus to saves vs fear, poison, and disease, for 1 FP each. As outcasts, it wouldn't hurt them to have a +2 to survival for another 1 FP. Now they're up to 10 FP, balanced. Not happy with one of the suggestions above? The feat Endurance is worth 3 FP as a bonus feat. (If I recall correctly, not enough feats depend on Endurance to make it the start of a feat chain.) Also are the Sharakim worth LA +1? Wizards Stats (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=3) They have 14 FP total. They're LA+0 overpowered, not LA+1.
YabaTheWhat 08-09-06, 04:04 PM	With all the evolution the system has gone through, it's about time I analyzed the core races again. HUMANS • Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Human base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • 1 extra feat at 1st level. [6 FP] • 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. [4 FP] • Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). See the Speak Language skill. • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count. [0.5 FP] Total = 10.5 FP The value of delayed abilities degrades more slowly over time, so the human progressive skill bonuses are worth a bit more. DWARVES • +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma. [1 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, dwarves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). [-2 FP] • Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] • Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. [1.5 FP] • Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven waraxes and dwarven urgroshes as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. [1 FP] • Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. [4 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids. [1 FP] • +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. [0.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. [1 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon. • Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass dwarf ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing Total = 14 FP. Craft is now a skill group worth double, but the dwarven bonus is halved again due to limited application (stone & metal only). ELVES • +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. [1 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Elf base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Immunity to magic sleep effects [3 FP], and a +2 racial saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects. [1 FP] • Low-Light Vision: An elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • Weapon Proficiency: Elves receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. [4 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks [3 FP]. An elf who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. [1 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, and Sylvan. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Wizard. A multiclass elf ’s wizard class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] Total = 14 FP. Looks like that's going to be the new high-end LA+0 balanced. I'll probably have to bump the LA+0 overpowered mark up to 18 FP, bringing Raptorans in just under the wire. Good for them. The weapon proficiencies went up in value, as a compromise between the grouped martial weapon proficiency awarded to combat classes and the martial weapon proficiency feat. GNOMES • +2 Constitution, –2 Strength. [1 FP] • Small: As a Small creature, a gnome gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. [0 FP] • Gnome base land speed is 20 feet. [0 FP] • Low-Light Vision: A gnome can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • Weapon Familiarity: Gnomes may treat gnome hooked hammers as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. [0.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. [1 FP] • Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by gnomes. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects. [1 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids. [1 FP] • +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks. [0.5 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Gnome. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, and Orc. In addition, a gnome can speak with a burrowing mammal (a badger, fox, rabbit, or the like, see below). This ability is innate to gnomes. See the speak with animals spell description. • Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals [2 FP] (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). A gnome with a Charisma score of at least 10 also has the following spell-like abilities: 1/day—dancing lights [1 FP], ghost sound [1 FP], prestidigitation [1 FP]. Caster level 1st [1 FP]; save DC 10 + gnome’s Cha modifier + spell level. • Favored Class: Bard. A multiclass gnome’s bard class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. Total = 14 FP Their spell-like abilities have actually gone down in total cost. Rather than the original 2/6/10/... values, spell-like abilities now cost 1/4/7/... plus the caster level needed to cast their highest-level SLA. On the other hand, the increased DC of their spells is now worth more. HALF-ELVES • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects [3 FP], and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. [1 FP] • Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. [1.5 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks. [2 FP] • Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). [0 FP] • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-elf takes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count. [0.5 FP] Total = 9 FP For the half-elf more than the elf, the adjusted value of narrow-focus save bonuses shows through. They're now a bit under the mark. HALF-ORCS • +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. [-2 FP] A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] • Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. [0 FP] Total = 1 FP Just as bad off as before. What else can I say? HALFLINGS • +2 Dexterity, –2 Strength. [1 FP] • Small: As a Small creature, a halfling gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons than humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. [0 FP] • Halfling base land speed is 20 feet. [0 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Climb, Jump, and Move Silently checks. [3 FP] • +1 racial bonus on all saving throws. [6 FP] • +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general. [1 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons and slings. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks. [1 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Halfling. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Gnome, Goblin, and Orc. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass halfling’s rogue class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] Total = 13 FP Halflings went up a bit from the adjusted rules for ability score bonuses & penalties, but they're still riding middle of the road for balance. Orc Traits (Ex): Orcs possess the following racial traits. — +4 Strength, –2 Intelligence, –2 Wisdom, –2 Charisma. [+9 +3h -3 -3 -3 = 3 FP] —An orc’s base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] —Light Sensitivity: Orcs are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. [-2 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Barbarian. Total = 4 FP Full orcs haven't come up in the world. In fact, with most of the other races getting a slight lift, orcs get left in the dust. Kobold characters possess the following racial traits. — –4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. [-4 FP] —Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters. [0 FP] —A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet. [6 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] —Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks. [2 FP] — +1 natural armor bonus. [6 FP] —Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity. [-2 FP] —Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon. —Favored Class: Sorcerer. Total = 11 FP Kobolds gained a little ground from the adjusted ability score rules, but the increased value of light sensitivity and the reduced value of individual craft & profession skills put them right back where they started. They're still balanced, and would probably make pretty good divine casters. Goblin characters possess the following racial traits. — –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma. [-2 FP] —Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, –4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 3/4 those of Medium characters. [0 FP] —A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. [6 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks. [4 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. [0 FP] —Favored Class: Rogue. [0 FP] Total = 11 FP Once again, not much to say. They got a bit of a lift, and are now even with kobolds. ____ I will continue to update this post in keeping with minor changes. Hopefully there won't be any major changes at this stage.
AMGriffin 08-09-06, 09:37 PM	Yabbathewhat, Your reccomendations for fixing the orc and half-orc I have a few suggestions. As far as statistics go, I think it'd be better to simply remove some of their penalties as opposed to adding bonuses? Especially in the case of half-orcs, since they are part human I think a higher degree of versitility would not hurt them. Removing either the intelligence or charisma penalty works good and makes them far more diverse. From there I think the bonuses to intimidate and survival are good choices plus the bonus save vs fear and to round things out I'd give em a choice between the following feats at first level. Great fortitude, iron will, run, toughness, endurance, alertness, self sufficient, or athletic. And lastly I think giving them some kinda variation on favored class helps too, maybe not necessarily any, but maybe a choice between fighter, barbarian, and ranger?
YabaTheWhat 08-10-06, 08:11 AM	Dropping the penalty, rather than adding a bonus, would be perfectly fine. It puts 3 FP back into their value to remove a single -2 ability score penalty; that's slightly less than it costs them to add a bonus. As for which penalty to remove, that depends mainly on what flavor you want the orc and half-orc to have. Despite certain popular opinions, all ability scores have the same value for the same bonus or penalty. When it comes to adding a bonus feat, keep two things in mind. First, any bonus feat that begins a feat chain is worth an extra 2 FP, because it makes more combat options available at earlier levels. To be the start of a feat chain, a feat must be the prerequisite (directly or indirectly) for at least 3 other feats, without having a feat prerequisite of its own. The human bonus feat is worth 6 FP because of options like Two-Weapon Fighting (3FP base, +1 FP for Dex 15, +2 FP for feat chain). Second, when offering several options, always charge for the most expensive option, because that is the one many players will take when creating their characters. On favored class, if the race has more than one option, be sure to state that only their highest-level class among the three does not count. If all three do not count, that is worth more, because they can freely jump between several classes without taking an XP penalty. If each of the race's favored classes do not count, it will cost 0.5 FP per additional favored class.
Anauroch 08-10-06, 08:24 AM	Hey Yabbathewhat! I've read through this thread almost completely just yesterday and have to say I'm impressed. I'll follow along closely as you continue developing your system. Keep it up! :clap: Now to the issue I'm thinking about - it actually has very little to do with races, but your system of assessing powers and comparing them might come in handy. I'm trying to develop a werepanther according to savage progression and am trying to build it along the lines of the weretiger which is described in detail. Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm) Leopard = Panther (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/leopard.htm) Savage Progression for the weretiger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031212a) The tiger is a strong animal, the panther a dextrous one with neat climbing abilities. I'll post what I have so far and if you can find the time to give me some feedback on it, I'd be really happy! :) The three lycanthrope template levels are almost identical, only that the tiger gets improved natural attack (bite) and improved natural attack (claws) whereas the leopard/panther gets weapon finesse as a feat at 2nd level. Weretiger (directly from Savage Progression) 1st: Str +2, natural armor +2, tiger abilities, bite 2nd: Str +2, Dex +2, scent 3rd: Str +2, Con +2, natural armor +1, 2 claws 4th: Str +2, Con +2, improved grab, large size 5th: Str +2, Dex +2, natural armor +1, pounce 6th: Str +2, Con +2, rake When the weretiger is in tiger form, his speed changes to 40 feet. In all forms, he gains a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. When in tiger form and in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, his Hide bonus improves to +8. Class skills for the tiger racial Hit Dice are Balance, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, and Swim. Werepanther 1st: Dex +2, natural armor +2, minor panther abilities, bite 2nd: Dex +2, Str +2, scent 3rd: Dex +2, Con +2, moderate panther abilities, 2 claws 4th: Dex +2, major panther abilities, improved grab (only with bite, not with claws) 5th: Dex +2, Con +2, natural armor +1, pounce 6th: Dex +2, Str +2, rake Minor panther abilities: When the werepanther is in panther form, his speed changes to 40 feet. In all forms, he gains a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Jump and Climb checks. When in panther form and in shadowy areas (it's black fur after all), his Hide bonus improves to +8. Class skills for the panther racial Hit Dice are Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. Moderate panther abilities: When the werepanther is in panther form, his bonuses on Balance, Jump and Climb improve to +8. Major panther abilities: When the werepanther is in panther form, he gains a climb speed of 20 feet. This means that he can always take 10 on climb checks and move up to full speed with a check made at -5. Now, what is my question? ;) If you want to, you can give me feedback on how my savage progression works out - but I REALLY would like to know is if the overall design works out. Here's where the two differ: Tiger: STR +12; CON +6; DEX +4 Natural Armor: +4 Large size Improved Grab is effective (usable with both claws and being large means he can use it against medium-sized opponents) Swim is a class skill. Leopard/Panther: Dex +12; Con +4; Str +4 (overall +2 less) Natural Armor: +3 Medium size Improved Grab is ineffective (only usable with bite and being medium-sized means he can only use it against small opponents... also not much STR to grapple with...) Climb and Jump are class skills Gets a climb speed of 20 and the corresponding abilities (take 10, -5 on check to move full speed, retain Dex while climbing). Skill bonuses are much higher than the tiger's: equal for Hide and Move Silently, but +4 more on Balance and +8 on Jump and Climb. Now the question is whether those immense skill bonuses outweigh the lesser combat prowess the leopard/panther has or not? The weretiger will be a much more powerful combattant in any case. The werepanther will be able to climb a wall or jump away or whatever, but will still be considerably weaker... Any thoughts? Ideas? Anyone actually? Thanks! :) EDIT: If this is too far off track, Yabba, just tell me and I'll edit/remove this out of your FP thread.
YabaTheWhat 08-10-06, 11:44 AM	Werepanther 1st: Dex +2, natural armor +2, minor panther abilities, bite 2nd: Dex +2, Str +2, scent 3rd: Dex +2, Con +2, moderate panther abilities, 2 claws 4th: Dex +2, major panther abilities, improved grab (only with bite, not with claws) 5th: Dex +2, Con +2, natural armor +1, pounce 6th: Dex +2, Str +2, rake Minor panther abilities: When the werepanther is in panther form, his speed changes to 40 feet. In all forms, he gains a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, Move Silently, Jump and Climb checks. When in panther form and in shadowy areas (it's black fur after all), his Hide bonus improves to +8. Class skills for the panther racial Hit Dice are Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot. Moderate panther abilities: When the werepanther is in panther form, his bonuses on Balance, Jump and Climb improve to +8. Major panther abilities: When the werepanther is in panther form, he gains a climb speed of 20 feet. This means that he can always take 10 on climb checks and move up to full speed with a check made at -5.My first thought was not at all related to feature points. I didn't misspell my name, and kinda wonder why other people do so regularly. It isn't just here, either. My second thought was, don't weretigers have 6 hit dice and LA+3, giving them a nine-level progression? That thought was resolved when I looked at the weretiger build, where they apparently have two independent level sets totalling 9 levels. My third thought, which relates more directly to the question at hand, is that the quoted panther progression seems front-loaded. They're getting most of their major benefits early on (at least those of the panther, the lycanthropy benefits seem to be missing). It isn't your fault though; the weretiger template is also front-loaded. However, it is your fault for ignoring several differences between tigers and leopards. Try this progression for size: Base racial traits: ¤ Dexterity +2 ¤ Low-light vision ¤ 2 Claws 1d3 ¤ Balance +2, Climb +2, Hide +2, Jump +2, Move Silently +2 Skill points: (2+INT)x4 at 1st level, 2+INT at 3rd level, 2+INT at 5th level Feats: 1st-level feat at 1st level, 3rd-level feat at 5th level LEVEL HD BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 1d8 +0 +1 +1 +0 Bite 1d6, Dexterity +2, Shapechanger subtype 2 1d8 +1 +1 +1 +0 Nat Armor +1, Imp. Grab, Strength +2, Balance +2, Climb +2, Jump +2 3 2d8 +1 +2 +2 +0 Constitution +2, Dexterity +2, DR 1/silver 4 2d8 +1 +2 +2 +1 Strength +2, Rake, Nat Armor +1, DR 4/silver, Balance +2, Climb +2, Jump +2, Hide +2, MS +2 5 3d8 +2 +3 +3 +1 Constitution +2, Pounce, Nat Armor +1, DR 7/silver, Balance +2, Climb +2, Jump +2 6 3d8 +2 +3 +3 +1 Dexterity +2, Strength +2, Climb 20ft, DR 10/silver, Environment Bonus (Hide/MS) They already have the +8 climb bonus by level 5, so the climb speed does not provide any additional bonus. (This must be explicitly stated.) I'm not sure if I missed any racial or lycanthropic traits. All the changes above apply in their appropriate forms only.
YabaTheWhat 08-10-06, 03:07 PM	Adding a tidbit of new information to this thread. As a compromise between the value of mental ability score bonuses and the Spell Focus feats, increases in spell save DCs have been reevaluated. The cost of increasing save DCs now stacks with the highest mental ability bonus. Augmenting the save DC for a single spell school costs 1 FP for the first point, 2 FP for the 2nd point, and so forth. Augmenting additional schools by the same amount then costs 1 FP per school. (This makes augmenting the save DC for 4 schools cost the same as an ability score increase of equal proportion.) If the race takes an ability score penalty to all mental abilities, then the save DC can be augmented up to an overall adjustment of +0 at a cost of 1 FP per point per school. For example, consider a race with CHA +4 and a +2 bonus to the save DCs of their transmutations. The race pays 9 FP (plus 3 FP if it is their highest bonus) for the +2 bonus to charisma. The additional augmented save DCs cost 7 FP (3 FP to raise the DC to +3, then 4 FP to raise the DC to +4).
Zereth 08-10-06, 06:23 PM	what would telepathy with any sentient creature, such as the Mind Flayer's, rate and what would telepathy exclusive to other members of a race be worth?
ThorGuy 08-10-06, 06:51 PM	Yaba, what you don't seem to be getting about stat modifiers is this: A fighter-type class can focus on his physical stats and have 8's in all of his mental stats, and suffer almost no penalty. Even if the campaign has plentiful social situations, he can just hang in the back and let the sorcerer do the talking. A caster-type character, however, cannot focuse on his mental stats to the exclusion of his physical stats. The reason for this is thus: Combat in D&D depends on two things: Your ability to take damage, and your ability to deal it out. This might manifest itself in indirect ways, like Bardic Music or Buffing Spells, but the fact remains. The fundamental problem is that your ability to dish out damage depends on your class, (Charisma for a sorcerer, Strength for a fighter, etc.) but your ability to take it is always based on Dexterity and Constitution. So somebody with a penalty to Charisma could just play a fighter or barbarian and suffer almost no adverse effects, but someone with a penalty to Constitution would be handicapped no matter what race they played.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-10-06, 07:14 PM	Having some experience at playing a rogue/wizard in an extremely hostile situation with Dex 13 and Con 7 (stupid snakebite :nonono: ), I'm gonna have to disagree with ThorGuy here. Ability to survive incoming damage isn't about Dex and Con, though they help. Dex and Con only come into play if you actually let yourself get hit. Cover, going prone in a shooting fight, taking terrain advantage (or ally advantage) to block charge lines, hiding behind or inside illusions, these seem to have a lot more to do with keeping attacks and spells from ruining your day than your ability scores. (Admittedly I hate Con penalties with a passion, but that's because I personally prefer to play reckless as hell and I pay for it often.) Spellcasters, and even some noncasters, can get away with dumping physical abilities just as easily as melee monsters can get away with dumping mental ones - they just have to be careful in physical struggles like the melee monsters have to be careful with social ones. (So sayeth the example of the pure rogue with two physical dumps in that same game - she's got Str 8, Dex 17, Con 8, and holds her own just fine.) :thinks: When rogue/wizard next reaches an opportunity to buy scrolls, I'm thinking he may have to invest in learning Mage Armor and/or Shield. Surviving Dex 13 Con 7 without them is definitely possible, but that's no reason not to use resources when they're available.
Anauroch 08-14-06, 12:03 PM	Ahem, thanks for the feedback YabaTheWhat! Your werepanther progression looks interesting, but I've already decided with my DM to keep it similar to the weretiger. This also means that we are balancing it according to the weretiger. The current question is more one of how to get those skill points in and at what point than how to create a progression that really makes sense. However, it is your fault for ignoring several differences between tigers and leopards. I'm not exactly sure which - as long as you keep in mind that it's supposed to be a 9 level progression (3 lycanthrope template levels which I didn't list and six panther class levels) and equal in power to the weretiger. They already have the +8 climb bonus by level 5, so the climb speed does not provide any additional bonus. (This must be explicitly stated.) I'm not sure if I missed any racial or lycanthropic traits. All the changes above apply in their appropriate forms only. I think you included all racial traits in your progression. You did leave out the +2 to Wisdom (gained at the 1st lyc. level), the panther feats (Alertness (1st) and Weapon Finesse (2nd)) and the stages when the hybrid(2nd) and animal form(1st) can be chosen. You know what? Actually I think your example is quite neat... maybe I will get my DM to change to that! The tiger is just such a more powerful animal than the leopard/panther that having 6 class levels wouldn't make as much sense. I will need to work the above abilities into the build, though. If you can find the time - could you make a suggestion including the above attributes? Maybe make it a 7 level progression in all? If you don't have the time or don't feel like it, that's fine. Just tell me if you'd rather have me make a new suggestion and you enhance it, okay? :)
Anauroch 08-14-06, 04:03 PM	Just saw one more thing and had one more question: The werepanther should get scent as a power, too. What did you mean with Base racial traits: ¤ Dexterity +2 ¤ Low-light vision ¤ 2 Claws 1d3 ¤ Balance +2, Climb +2, Hide +2, Jump +2, Move Silently +2 ?? Is that what it gets in all forms? Dex+2 instead of Wis+2? I guess it must stay Wis in that case since that's standard for licanthropes... Oh, I think you just thought about what a balanced LA +0 race would look like if it were thematically like a panther?
YabaTheWhat 08-14-06, 04:58 PM	I think you included all racial traits in your progression. You did leave out the +2 to Wisdom (gained at the 1st lyc. level), the panther feats (Alertness (1st) and Weapon Finesse (2nd)) and the stages when the hybrid(2nd) and animal form(1st) can be chosen. They get their all their forms as soon as they get the shapechanger subtype. Without that first werepanther level, a transformation takes 1 minute, and causes them to take 1d3 hp subdual damage per hit die. Because they only get their ability score bonuses as they gain levels, there's no imbalance to giving them the shape of a medium-sized panther or leopard. The two feats listed for the panther are, in fact, not bonus feats. It has 3 hit dice, and two feats. Those two feats are gained from hit dice. Thus it gets them at 1st and 5th level, when it gets its 1st and 3rd hit die, as mentioned above the level chart. Here's a slightly revised progression to include the wisdom bonus: Base racial traits: ¤ Wisdom +2 (all forms) ¤ Low-light vision ¤ 2 Claws 1d3 ¤ Balance +2, Climb +2, Hide +2, Jump +2, Move Silently +2 Skill points: (2+INT)x4 at 1st level, 2+INT at 3rd level, 2+INT at 5th level Feats: 1st-level feat at 1st level, 3rd-level feat at 5th level LEVEL HD BAB FORT REF WILL SPECIAL ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 1d8 +0 +1 +1 +0 Bite 1d6, Dexterity +2, Shapechanger subtype 2 1d8 +1 +1 +1 +0 Nat Armor +1, Imp. Grab, Strength +2, Balance +2, Climb +2, Jump +2 3 2d8 +1 +2 +2 +0 Constitution +2, Dexterity +2, DR 1/silver, Scent 4 2d8 +1 +2 +2 +1 Strength +2, Dexterity +2, Rake, DR 4/silver, Balance +2, Climb +2, Jump +2, Hide +2, MS +2 5 3d8 +2 +3 +3 +1 Constitution +2, Nat Armor +1, Pounce, DR 7/silver, Balance +2, Climb +2, Jump +2 6 3d8 +2 +3 +3 +1 Strength +2, Dexterity +2, Climb 20ft*, Nat Armor +1, DR 10/silver, Environment Bonus (Hide/MS) * Does not provide additional climb skill bonus. The following features apply in hybrid and animal forms only: ¤ All physical ability score bonuses ¤ Natural attacks (claws, bite, imp. grab, rake, pounce) ¤ Half of each skill bonus awarded, and all environmental skill bonuses ¤ Damage reduction ¤ Climb speed (level 6) The pounce special attack may only be used with natural weapons. what would telepathy with any sentient creature, such as the Mind Flayer's, rate and what would telepathy exclusive to other members of a race be worth? I'm going to dip into the psionic powers list, since it comes closer to this one than any normal spell. Mindlink, the first-level psionic power, covers telepathy pretty well. It's a 1st-level power with a 10 minute per level duration. Treating this as a spell-like ability, it would be worth 4x12 + 1 = 49 FP if used without limitation. However, for active telepathy limited to one target at a time within range (a much more reasonable version), the duration would effectively be changed to Concentration, and the benefits of the ability slightly reduced. This gives us 3x8+1 = 25 FP. That's enough to boost level adjustment by 1 at lower levels, but by level 10 it's only worth 1/2 LA, or 1/3 LA by level 20. Remember also that telepathy bypasses language barriers, and has a range of 25 ft (close). Restricting the ability further to communication with members of one's own race would cut the value further. The spell no longer bypasses language barriers, and does not have its full range of targets. It would be worth 8-9 FP, because it still allows covert communication over a limited distance.
Anauroch 08-14-06, 05:27 PM	Wow. I'm really impressed. The last thing I feel I should mention is the scent power. Well, what am I saying - I really would like that scent power to be included. :) But Scent is quite powerful, right? Maybe another level of the template class is a must then? Sorry to challenge you further... :cheer: (this might help)
Wolghan 08-14-06, 10:01 PM	Quick question - Level 1 spell at will, Caster Level 1st. How much does that cost? (Thanks!!)
Rerecros 08-14-06, 10:22 PM	Zero-level spells count as two little features per spell per use per day. (For example Dancing Lights once per day counts as two little features.) Thus three zero-level spell-like abilities per day are equal to one big feature. First-level spells are a big feature per spell per use per day. Any spell higher than 1st level will typically earn a level adjustment. 2 characters
YabaTheWhat 08-14-06, 11:31 PM	2 characters That's a quote from the post I made that started this whole project. However, that doesn't answer his question. The question is about use at will, not one use per day. And the value has changed since that post, because I've had time to calibrate and evaluate. Quick question - Level 1 spell at will, Caster Level 1st. How much does that cost? (Thanks!!) That depends on the spell duration, and the nature of the spell's targets. For spells that affect the caster, a longer duration means less value for use at will. If the spell targets another creature, then longer duration means more creatures can be affected at once, increasing the value. Spells with very short durations, or spells which require concentration to maintain, carry mid-range values. Such spells typically only affect one target at a time regardless of what that target is, and were designed to last only a short time as a means to moderate their power. Yes, I have a table for use-at-will multipliers. When the document is finished, that table (among others) will be included.
blade5454 08-14-06, 11:52 PM	and is there an ETA of that document :) , or will we just have to wait?
YabaTheWhat 08-15-06, 07:48 AM	Life is keeping me busy for at least the next month, so there will be minimal if any progress during that time. Barring the unforseen, I should have a bit more free time after mid-September, and hope to have the documentation in reasonable shape for first draft release around late October.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-15-06, 07:59 AM	Real life... :gah: It burns! It burns us! It freezes! Take it off us! Bummer about being busy, but, it's good to at least have some idea when the first draft can be expected to be released. And just out of curiosity, what is the FP value of an ability score that doesn't have a racial modifier, and can't be set or influenced by the player, but rather is an unknown result from 3-18? (I'm wondering about ECL for an awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) lion, but the Int score seems like it'll be tricky at best to value.)
YabaTheWhat 08-15-06, 08:49 AM	And just out of curiosity, what is the FP value of an ability score that doesn't have a racial modifier, and can't be set or influenced by the player, but rather is an unknown result from 3-18? (I'm wondering about ECL for an awakened (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/awaken.htm) lion, but the Int score seems like it'll be tricky at best to value.) Not so tricky. Technically all it means is that an awakened animal has an unmodified INT score, where a normal animal has a modifier of either -10 or -8 (score of 1 or 2 respectively). Since the awakened animal doesn't have a modifier to its INT score, the lack of modifier is worth 0 FP. Remember, feature points are applied to the resulting creature, not to the changes that lead to the result (which is why templates would have a variable LA). For a race where the ability score bonus is something random, take the average (rounded up if bordering between two values). For example, a WIS bonus of 6+1d6 would be equivalent to a +10 (i.e. (6+(6+1)/2)=9.5 round up) bonus. Giving this sort of ability score adjustment would also be a bad idea, as it negates the concept of an "average" member of the race. The tricky part is giving a value to not having hands. :P
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-15-06, 11:15 AM	The tricky part is giving a value to not having hands. :P Hands? Pfft. Hands are for guys who can't get girls, and who want or need to wield weapons. Who needs weapons when you've got Pounce as a racial ability, and plan to pick up Powerful Charge, Greater Powerful Charge, Power Attack, Leap Attack, possibly Rapidstrike, and maybe take levels in the Scout class, using your natural weapons to approach your foes (and any inconveniently closed doors) with the subtlety and force of an oncoming train? :smirk:
Izodor_Shadowcaster 08-16-06, 02:59 PM	I would like to know how much Feature points you would give to the Living Construct type (warforged ect...). :)
GothiousRex 08-17-06, 01:07 AM	Hey Yabathewhat, could you show the FP for the core sub-races as well? Grey Elves Wood Elves Aquatic Elves Deep Dwarves Tallfellow etc. please and thank you. PS would any of these sub-races trigger LA>0 for their higher FP?
Rerecros 08-17-06, 01:16 AM	Grey Elves Wood Elves the exact same as regular elves.
Anauroch 08-17-06, 01:36 AM	the exact same as regular elves. I'm not sure about this - the only thing I remember about the Grey Elves is that they get +2 to Int and -2 to Con in addition to the normal elven ability adjustments. In the FP system that means that the Grey Elves are one FP up (4 FP for +2 to a stat, -3 FP for -2 to a stat).
YabaTheWhat 08-17-06, 10:29 AM	Grey Elves Wood Elves [As normal (high) elves plus 1 FP] Wild Elves [As normal elves] Grey Elves [As normal elves plus 1 FP] Aquatic Elves [see below] Drow [see below] Deep Dwarves [As normal (hill) dwarves plus 1 FP] Duergar Dwarves [see below] Svirfneblin Gnomes [see below] Forest Gnomes [see below] Tallfellow [As normal halflings] Deep Halflings [As normal halflings plus 2.5 FP] Remember that the balanced range for ECL=CL (LA+0) is 10-14 FP. Aquatic Elf Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. — +2 Dexterity, –2 Intelligence. These adjustments replace the high elf ’s ability score adjustments. [No change] —An aquatic elf has the aquatic subtype. [0 FP] —An aquatic elf has a swim speed of 40 feet. [6 FP] —Gills: Aquatic elves can survive out of the water for 1 hour per point of Constitution (after that, refer to the suffocation rules). [10 FP, see below] —Superior Low-Light Vision: Aquatic elves can see four times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of low illumination. This trait replaces the high elf ’s low-light vision. [2 FP increase] —Favored Class: Fighter. This trait replaces the high elf ’s favored class. [no change] Total = 18 FP + Elven Total = 32 FP, LA+1 balanced. The aquatic elf's ability to hold its breath is equivalent to the water breathing spell, except that it can only affect the aquatic elf, and works as Air Breathing instead of Water Breathing. Based on the duration, they get the ability once per day. Because of the reduced versatility of the ability compared to the normal spell, its value has been reduced. It has been valued as a 2nd-level spell, with the exception that the caster level will not apply to any other spell-like abilities (of which they have none anyway). Drow Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the high elf traits, except where noted. — +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma. [8 FP] —Darkvision out to 120 feet. This trait replaces the high elf ’s low-light vision. [4 FP - 1 FP] —Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. [28 FP - 2 FP, see below] — +2 racial bonus on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities. [2 FP - 1 FP, see below] —Spell-Like Abilities: Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights [1 FP], darkness [7 FP], faerie fire [4 FP]. Caster level equals the drow’s class levels [3 FP (minimum)]. —Weapon Proficiency: A drow is automatically proficient with the hand crossbow [2 FP], the rapier [1 FP], and the short sword [1 FP]. This trait replaces the high elf ’s weapon proficiency. [-4 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Elven, Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Aquan, Draconic, Drow Sign Language, Gnome, Goblin. This trait replaces the high elf ’s automatic and bonus languages. [0.5 FP] —Light Blindness: Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds drow for 1 round. On subsequent rounds, they are dazzled as long as they remain in the affected area. [-2 FP] —Favored Class: Wizard (male) or cleric (female). This trait replaces the high elf’s favored class. [0 FP] —Level adjustment +2. [see below] Total = 51.5 FP + Elven Total = 65.5 FP, LA +2 balanced/overpowered margin. Spell resistance is worth a lot, and its value continues to grow. However, it is partially redundant with bonuses to saves vs spells and the elven sleep immunity, because any spell that does not bypass their spell resistance will not require a save. Duergar Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the hill dwarf traits, except where noted. — –4 Charisma instead of –2. [-2 FP] —Darkvision out to 120 feet. [4 FP - 3 FP] —Immunity to paralysis [5 FP], phantasms [3 FP], and poison [5 FP - 1 FP]. This trait replaces the hill dwarf ’s +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. — +2 racial bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities. [4 FP (stacks with hill dwarven bonus)] —Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—enlarge person [4-1 = 3 FP] and invisibility [7-2 = 5 FP] as a wizard of twice the duergar’s class level (minimum caster level 3rd) [4 FP]; these abilities affect only the duergar and whatever it carries. —Light Sensitivity: Duergar are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell. [-2 FP] — +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. [2 FP] — +1 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. [1 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Dwarven, Undercommon. [0.5 FP] Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Terran. This trait replaces the hill dwarf’s automatic and bonus languages. —Favored Class: Fighter. —Unlike other dwarves, duergar do not have weapon familiarity with the dwarven waraxe and dwarven urgrosh. [-1 FP] —Level adjustment +1 [see below] Total = 26.5 + Dwarven Total = 40.5 FP, LA+1 overpowered The values of their spell-like abilities were reduced because of the limited target selection (themselves only). Despite their caster level being twice their character level, the value is reduced for every 2 levels waited, and manages to hover at 4 FP for several levels before declining. Svirfneblin Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the rock gnome traits, except where noted. — –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –4 Charisma. These adjustments replace the rock gnome’s ability score adjustments. [-3+4+4-5 = 0 FP] [-1 FP lost adjustments] —Stonecunning: This ability grants deep gnomes a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework. A deep gnome who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as though actively searching, and can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A svirfneblin can also intuit depth, sensing the approximate distance underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. [1.5 FP] —Darkvision out to 120 feet and low-light vision. [4 FP + 0 FP] —Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. [28 FP] — +2 racial bonus on all saving throws [12 FP - 3 FP, see below] (figured into the statistics for the character presented here). This trait replaces the rock gnome’s racial bonus on saving throws against illusions. [-1 FP] —Add +1 to the Difficulty Class for all saving throws against illusion spells cast by svirfneblin. This adjustment stacks with those from similar effects, such as the Spell Focus feat. [1 FP, see below] — +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids. [1 FP] — +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against all creatures [20 FP](figured into the statistics for the character presented here). This trait replaces the rock gnome’s dodge bonus against giants. [-1 FP] —Automatic Languages: Undercommon, Gnome, Common. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Orc, Terran. This trait replaces the rock gnome’s automatic and bonus languages. [0.5 FP] —Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—blindness/deafness [7 FP] (typical save DC 13), blur [7 FP], disguise self [4 FP]. Caster level equals the svirfneblin’s class levels [3 FP - 1 FP]. The save DC is Charisma-based and include a +4 racial modifier [(+1+1+1+2)/2 = 2.5 FP]. This trait replaces the rock gnome’s spell-like abilities. [-5 FP] —Nondetection (Su): A svirfneblin has a continuous nondetection ability as the spell (caster level equal to class levels). [(10+1-3)x3 = 24 FP, see below] — +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) and Listen checks. [1.5 FP] — +2 racial bonus on Hide checks [1 FP], which improves to +4 underground. [0.5 FP] —Favored Class: Rogue. [0 FP] —Level adjustment +3. [see below] Total = 106.5 + Gnome Total = 120.5 FP, LA+4 balanced They have spell resistance, +4 AC, and much of what they miss from the lost class levels comes back to them as special adjustments. Spell resistance is partially redundant with the bonus vs all saves. Then there's the spell-like abilities, including nondetection (self only) at will. Nondetection's value is reduced because they can only target themselves, then uses a smaller use-at-will multiplier for the same reason. The spell has a long duration (hence the low multiplier) but requires a material component (raising the spell value). I decided to treat it as a 2nd-level spell based on the reduction, so that they wouldn't need a higher caster level. Forest Gnome Traits (Ex): These traits are in addition to the rock gnome traits, except where noted. —Pass without Trace (Su): A forest gnome has the innate ability to use pass without trace (self only, as a free action) as the spell cast by a druid of the forest gnome’s class levels. [(4-1)x3 = 9 FP] — +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds, goblinoids, orcs, and reptilian humanoids. [1 FP] — +4 racial bonus on Hide checks [2 FP], which improves to +8 in a wooded area. [1 FP] —Automatic Languages: Gnome, Elven, Sylvan, and a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest animals (this replaces the rock gnome’s speak with animals ability). Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc. This trait replaces the rock gnome’s automatic and bonus languages. [0.5 + (4-1)x5 - 2 = 13.5 FP] Total = 26.5 FP + Gnome Total = 40.5 FP, LA +1 overpowered Two spells at will (pass without trace and speak with animals), both restricted to the caster only, give them a lot of tactical ability. Though they won't be worthy of their LA in open combat, their usefulness in recon and espionage gets a major boost, especially in natural surroundings.
GothiousRex 08-17-06, 04:46 PM	I think you made a mcguffin in the FP for the Drow stat mods. +2 Int +2 Cha in addition to +2 Dex and -2 Con should be more than 1 FP should be at least 4+4+4-3=9 FP
YabaTheWhat 08-17-06, 04:59 PM	I think you made a mcguffin in the FP for the Drow stat mods. +2 Int +2 Cha in addition to +2 Dex and -2 Con should be more than 1 FP should be at least 4+4+4-3=9 FP Thanks. Should've been +4+4 = 8, not +4-3 = 1. As for the PHB racial traits, note that I added in the Elven standard traits afterwards, offsetting the differences where it said, "This feature replaces..."
Delbert_Less 08-17-06, 08:06 PM	If you'd take time to count FP of those races described below, I would be as glad as anyone that cannot grant you anything can be. :D .... Race 1: • Humanoid (Reptilian): <Race Name> gains reptilian subtype, which means, that they are cold-blooded. • +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. • Medium: As Medium creatures, <Race Name> have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • <Race Name> base land speed is 30 feet. • Low-Light Vision: A <Race Name> can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. • Scent: this is exactly like <Race Ancestor> ability of the same name. • +1 natural bonus to AC. • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls made against animals. • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. • Weapon Proficiency: Bolas, net and throwing axe. • +2 racial bonus on Craft (Alchemy) and Survival. • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional) and <Race Language Name>. Bonus Languages: Gnoll, Goblin, Orc and Sylvan + number of regional languages. • Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass <Race Name> ranger class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. ---Race 2: • +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, -2 Constitution • Medium: As medium size creatures, <Race Name> have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • <Race Name> base land speed is 30 feet. • Low-Light Vision: A <Race Name> can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks: <Race Name> wolf-like ears help her to be more attentive than others. • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks: <Race Name> heritage still lives on and helps her to communicate with others. • Wolf Empathy: this ability works the same way as the Lycanthropes of the same name, granting <Race Name> +4 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against wolves and dire wolves. • <Race Name> Blood: <Race Name> blood is very complicated system that grants each latonian immunity to lycanthropy and other blood-related effects. For instance, a vampire that uses her blood drain ability on latonian gains no temporary hit points and it tastes to him like water, but still latonian loses her constitution points due to such attacks. • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional). Bonus Languages: Any, since Latonians mingle with all kinds of other races and thus can learn any language found in area. • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass <Race Name> rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. ---Race 3: • +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence: Immortals are wise, intuitive and attentive, but tend to ignore the education. • Medium: As Medium creatures, Immortal have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Immortal base land speed is 30 feet. • Immortal Heritage: Upon reaching particular level, Immortals receive special qualities, relating to their heritage. 1st Volition: Once a day for the duration of 1 round Immortal may apply his wisdom modifier, if any, to every check that he makes in this round, as an addition to other bonuses. The wisdom modifier does not apply two times, so if any check is using it already, then it is unchanged. Immortal must declare using the Volition right before start acting and it lasts until the beginning of his next round. 7th See the Truth: Immortals receives +2 racial bonus on will saves, made against enchantment and illusion spells or effects. 14th Immortality: Roll d100 once at this level and every level thereafter. If any of those rolls result is higher or equal to 75, then the body and the soul of Immortal finally unites (or reunites, as some say), making him a native outsider. If he dies after that point, no soul is set loose, so the spell such as raise dead or resurrection do not work on Immortal. It takes a Limited Wish, Miracle, Wish or similar effect to restore Immortal to life. However, Immortal still needs to sleep, eat, breathe, and can die of starvation, thirst or suffocation. Immortal also stops aging at that particular point and further on cannot die of old age. However, upon gaining this ability, Immortal age status increase on one position (From adult to middle age, from middle age to old etc) and he receive all the bonuses and penalties for aging, from table 6-5 in PHB. This process is not a subject to immunities granted by special abilities such as timeless body and cannot be cancelled. 20th Second Youth: Immortal finally reaches the ideal of his race becoming young again. All the penalties for aging he already received are removed and do not apply further on, even if he reaches Immortality after achieving Second Youth state. All of the bonuses still apply. Immortal body also becomes young again making him look like a person of adult age. • See Intensions: Immortal receive +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks, since they are very insightful and are hard to be tricked. • Automatic Language: Common (Regional). Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic), since Immortal mingle with all kinds of other races and thus can learn any language found in area. See the Speak Language skill. • Favored Class: Cleric. A multiclass immortal’s cleric class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
Rerecros 08-17-06, 11:41 PM	Do lizardfolk :dragon: I want a LA+0 version
DarknessEternal 08-18-06, 12:30 AM	If you really want people to take this seriously, you need to codify it strictly and start an new thread with it.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-18-06, 12:43 AM	There probably will be a new thread when the first draft is complete and ready to be presented. When I made this thread, I really wasn't expecting it to expand like it has. I figured maybe 5-8 posts, a chart if one was available, and that would be that. Now that it's expanded into a longer, more detailed discussion of the system as it's being built, you're right, it's really disorganized and not suitable for presenting the system alone in its first whole form. I think this thread is still useful to get people interested in what Yaba's doing, though (and judging by the length and views, some are interested and taking it seriously), and to bring up issues he might not have thought to account for at first. If you've got any more input on the system itself than what's here, or questions, please bring them up.
YabaTheWhat 08-18-06, 09:08 AM	.... Race 1: • Humanoid (Reptilian): <Race Name> gains reptilian subtype, which means, that they are cold-blooded. [0 FP] • +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma. [+4-3-3 = -2 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, <Race Name> have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • <Race Name> base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Low-Light Vision: A <Race Name> can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • Scent: this is exactly like <Race Ancestor> ability of the same name. [6 FP] • +1 natural bonus to AC. [6 FP] • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls made against animals. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. [1 FP] • Weapon Proficiency: Bolas [2 FP], net [2 FP] and throwing axe. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Craft (Alchemy) and Survival. [1.5 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional) and <Race Language Name>. Bonus Languages: Gnoll, Goblin, Orc and Sylvan + number of regional languages. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Ranger. A multiclass <Race Name> ranger class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Total = 19.5 FP, LA+1 underpowered I'd reduce the weapon proficiencies to weapon familiarity (exotic weapon becomes martial, martial become simple), making them 1/2 FP each. It'll cut their cost by 3.5 FP total, bringing them to 16 FP, LA+0 overpowered. ---Race 2: • +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, -2 Constitution [+4+4-3 = 5 FP] • Medium: As medium size creatures, <Race Name> have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • <Race Name> base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Low-Light Vision: A <Race Name> can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Listen checks: <Race Name> wolf-like ears help her to be more attentive than others. [1 FP] • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy checks: <Race Name> heritage still lives on and helps her to communicate with others. [1 FP] • Wolf Empathy: this ability works the same way as the Lycanthropes of the same name, granting <Race Name> +4 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against wolves and dire wolves. [0.5 FP] • <Race Name> Blood: <Race Name> blood is very complicated system that grants each <Race Name> immunity to lycanthropy and other blood-related effects. For instance, a vampire that uses her blood drain ability on latonian gains no temporary hit points and it tastes to him like water, but still latonian loses her constitution points due to such attacks. [see below] • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional). Bonus Languages: Any, since Latonians mingle with all kinds of other races and thus can learn any language found in area. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass <Race Name> rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] Total = 8.5 FP + 5.5 FP = 14 FP, LA+0 balanced It's hard to tell exactly what their racial blood ability does. If it provides immunity to all disease, it is worth 5 FP. The effect on vampires or similar blood-draining races is only worth 0.5 FP due to its circumstancial nature. Because it isn't always clear which diseases depend on their victim having blood, dividing up disease immunity for blood-only diseases would be cumbersome. (It obviously works on magical diseases.) ---Race 3: • +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence: Immortals are wise, intuitive and attentive, but tend to ignore the education. [1 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, Immortal have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Immortal base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Immortal Heritage: Upon reaching particular level, Immortals receive special qualities, relating to their heritage. 1st Volition: Once a day for the duration of 1 round Immortal may apply his wisdom modifier, if any, to every check that he makes in this round, as an addition to other bonuses. The wisdom modifier does not apply two times, so if any check is using it already, then it is unchanged. Immortal must declare using the Volition right before start acting and it lasts until the beginning of his next round. [5 FP, see below] 7th See the Truth: Immortals receives +2 racial bonus on will saves, made against enchantment and illusion spells or effects. [1x(16/81) = 0.2 FP, see below] 14th Immortality: Roll d100 once at this level and every level thereafter. If any of those rolls result is higher or equal to 75, then the body and the soul of Immortal finally unites (or reunites, as some say), making him a native outsider. If he dies after that point, no soul is set loose, so the spell such as raise dead or resurrection do not work on Immortal. It takes a Limited Wish, Miracle, Wish or similar effect to restore Immortal to life. However, Immortal still needs to sleep, eat, breathe, and can die of starvation, thirst or suffocation. Immortal also stops aging at that particular point and further on cannot die of old age. However, upon gaining this ability, Immortal age status increase on one position (From adult to middle age, from middle age to old etc) and he receive all the bonuses and penalties for aging, from table 6-5 in PHB. This process is not a subject to immunities granted by special abilities such as timeless body and cannot be cancelled. [(11+3)x(64/729) = 1.2 FP, see below] 20th Second Youth: Immortal finally reaches the ideal of his race becoming young again. All the penalties for aging he already received are removed and do not apply further on, even if he reaches Immortality after achieving Second Youth state. All of the bonuses still apply. Immortal body also becomes young again making him look like a person of adult age. [(4+5+6)x(512/19683) = 0.4 FP, see below] • See Intensions: Immortal receive +2 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks, since they are very insightful and are hard to be tricked. [1 FP] • Automatic Language: Common (Regional). Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic), since Immortal mingle with all kinds of other races and thus can learn any language found in area. See the Speak Language skill. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Cleric. A multiclass immortal’s cleric class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] Total = 9 FP, LA +0 underpowered When calculating the value of abilities that kick in at later levels, the value is multiplied by 2/3 for each level the creature needs to wait. This dramatically reduces the cost of several of the Immortal's features. This makes the +2 save vs enchantment nearly without value, and blunts the value of their higher-level racial benefits. The value of their first-level benefit can be derived several ways, all of which have about the same result. The base spells are True Strike (huge bonus to one attack), Resistance (+1 bonus to saves), and Guidance (+1 bonus to any one die roll). Obviously this ability's power increases as the Immortal gains the ability to take more actions in a round (think Monks), but its immediate value will be highest. They can make 2 attacks (monk flurry or two-weapon fighting), 1-3 saving throws, and/or 1 move-embedded skill check (such as Jump or Tumble) in a single round. The bonus will likely be higher than the +1 provided by Guidance or Resistance, but not as high as True Strike. It also lasts one full round. In all, this seems like a first-level spell equivalent. One suggestion to bring them up to speed would be to give them the Will save bonus vs enchantments separate from their level-dependent benefits, and give them a 2nd-level SLA (darkvision or see invisibility) once per day at 7th level.
Delbert_Less 08-18-06, 03:04 PM	You have made a great job! That is the best response I have ever had ever (Not only on this forums) :) You can ask me anything you wish, that I will be able to grant! I am in your dept from now on.
Rerecros 08-18-06, 04:31 PM	:tantrum: where is my lizardfolk?
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-18-06, 11:06 PM	:tantrum: where is my lizardfolk? Life is keeping me busy for at least the next month, so there will be minimal if any progress during that time. Barring the unforseen, I should have a bit more free time after mid-September, and hope to have the documentation in reasonable shape for first draft release around late October. Try to be patient. Yaba's avatar and the sheer awesomeness of what he's trying to do here may suggest otherwise, but presumably he is still only human. There's only so much a man can do in a day, you know?
Disciple_of_Taoth 08-19-06, 02:17 AM	YabatheWhat I have a quick question about your system that I'm not sure has been addressed. Can you explain/show how natural attacks are handled in FP? For example, on a medium creature what would be the difference between a claw attacks (1d4) and say a Bite attack (1d6)? Thanks, keep up the good work.
Rerecros 08-19-06, 02:34 AM	Natural weapons that cannot be used with normal weapons (i.e. claws or slam attack) and deal total damage equal to 2d3 or less are a little feature. Natural weapons that deal 1d4 or less and can be used with normal weapons are a medium feature. Natural weapons that cannot be used with normal weapons, and deal total damage of more than 2d3 but not more than 2d6, are a medium feature. A natural weapon that deals 1d6 and can be used with normal weapons is a big feature. A natural weapon that deals up to 2d8 but can only be used as part of a charge is a big feature. A natural weapon like any of the above that grants a special grapple, trip, or knockdown ability is promoted (little feature becomes medium, medium feature becomes big, big feature earns a level adjustment). Any other natural weapon earns a level adjustment. There. Though it might be outdated.
Disciple_of_Taoth 08-19-06, 02:52 AM	Thanks Rerecros for finding that for me. I thought I had looked pretty thoroughly but I guess I missed it. Have any FP cost been posted on those?
Rerecros 08-19-06, 02:55 AM	One little feature is worth one FP, one medium feature is worth three little features, and one big feature is worth two medium features.
Dunelord 08-19-06, 03:29 AM	Actually it did work. Kobolds have the best light-armor AC potential of any published ECL=CL race. They have the full movement rate of a medium creature with the attack bonus of a small creature. While they wouldn't be great in toe-to-toe combat, they would make handy rogues, and would do decently as spellcasters (despite the CON penalty). As with the gnome, the kobold's advantages are simply underutilized, and its drawbacks draw attention, so it looks underpowered. (Adjustments since the initial review: ability score FP value increases to -2FP, light sensitivity decreases to -2FP, no overall change in FP value.) Really you could get their AC high enough that as a fighter or Barbarian they can fuction as a tank.
YabaTheWhat 08-19-06, 08:35 AM	Lizardfolk characters possess the following racial traits. — +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence. [+4 +1s +4 -3 = 6 FP] —Medium size. [0 FP] —A lizardfolk’s base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] —Racial Hit Dice: A lizardfolk begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice [4x2 = 8 FP], a base attack bonus of +1 [8 FP], and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +0, Ref +3, and Will +0 [2x(2+1) = 6 FP]. —Racial Skills: A lizardfolk’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 x (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) [1x(2+1) = 3 FP]. Its class skills are Balance, Jump, and Swim. Lizardfolk have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Jump, and Swim checks [6 FP]. —Racial Feats: A lizardfolk’s humanoid levels give it one feat. [0 FP] —Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A lizardfolk is automatically proficient with simple weapons [2 FP] and shields [3 FP]. — +5 natural armor bonus. [30 FP] —Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) [1 FP] and bite (1d4) [5 FP]. —Special Qualities (see above): Hold breath. [1 FP] —Automatic Languages: Common, Draconic. Bonus Languages: Aquan, Goblin, Gnoll, Orc. —Favored Class: Druid. [0 FP] —Level adjustment +1. [see below] Total = 79 FP, ECL=CL+3 (2HD, LA+1) balanced (low end). Based on a relatively recent addition, strength and dexterity bonuses have a stacking value equal to the creature's base attack bonus. (For races with 0 BAB, this is moot.) Both BAB and ability score bonuses increase in value incrementally (rather than linearly), so stacking the value based on their matching increment prevents imbalanced maximization of total attack bonus. For racial hit dice, the first HD counts double on saves and skill points only (as opposed to quadruple or single for skills). Base attack bonus value is derived from the bonus itself, rather than the number of hit dice. Saving throw bonus value is based on the number of good saves, not the bonus itself. The value for hit points is derived from average (probable) awards at each hit die, with skill points and hit points using equal value to skill bonuses and HP bonuses, respectively. I do not recall if I posted a higher value for Hold Breath (CONx1) somewhere else. YabatheWhat I have a quick question about your system that I'm not sure has been addressed. Can you explain/show how natural attacks are handled in FP? For example, on a medium creature what would be the difference between a claw attacks (1d4) and say a Bite attack (1d6)? Thanks, keep up the good work. I've updated natural weapon handling since way back when I started this project (the post quoted below yours), but the principle is the same. For natural weapons that replace weapon attacks, the value is 1 FP, plus 1 FP for each point by which the maximum damage exceeds a dagger. For natural weapons that augment the number of attacks, the value is equal to twice the average damage of the weapon (or for convenience, just add the minimum and maximum damage). Natural weapons with special (non-damage tactical) abilities are worth extra, while those only useable under certain circumstances (such as charging) have less value.
YabaTheWhat 08-19-06, 08:44 AM	In case I haven't already done this, here (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=659927) is the thread where I started developing feature points. Most of that hadn't even been written down until that post. I intended it to be a freestanding method for determining if a race qualified as LA+0 with no racial hit dice (ECL=CL only). At the time, any race which didn't qualify for ECL=CL was referred back to the Savage Species acid test. As interest grew, I began refining and expanding the feature points system.
Jodjod 08-19-06, 07:14 PM	Would you mind checking the altered races in my signature? I've highlighted changes under each entry, so hopefully it won't take too long.
somogyi 08-20-06, 10:46 AM	just wondering if yabba ever finished this? and has a breakdown of how many fp per ecl. i saw something about 10-14 for +o la and overpowered margin. i think this is a great idea and would like to understand it better. btw i would like to thank yabba for all the work he is putting into this for everyone.
Kage_no_Neko 08-20-06, 11:24 AM	YabaTheWhat, I know you posted the link to the thread where you started working on feature points, but I keep wondering if you have a working thread with your actual feature point ratios. Throughout this thread you have demonstrated the system, then updated your reviews as you updated the system, but I have not been able to find the system listed in its entirely anywhere. Does it exist online?
YabaTheWhat 08-20-06, 11:17 PM	just wondering if yabba ever finished this? and has a breakdown of how many fp per ecl. i saw something about 10-14 for +o la and overpowered margin. i think this is a great idea and would like to understand it better. btw i would like to thank yabba for all the work he is putting into this for everyone. YabaTheWhat, I know you posted the link to the thread where you started working on feature points, but I keep wondering if you have a working thread with your actual feature point ratios. Throughout this thread you have demonstrated the system, then updated your reviews as you updated the system, but I have not been able to find the system listed in its entirely anywhere. Does it exist online?I have answered this question already, at least once. Until I have time to finish the written document, you will not find a complete list or set of tables. Why? Because I haven't finished the written document, and have not had time to complete some of the tables (in particular the accumulated list of "special" features). With reference to the FP/ECL table specifically, the table itself is complete, and I will consider posting it here, despite my intentions not to release any of the completed tables prior to finishing the written document.
xver 08-24-06, 08:48 AM	YabaTheWhat, I humbly request that you post the FP per ELC table so we may better use your system. I understand it's still a work in progress, but it seems to be the best system developed as of yet. If you'd really rather not do so, could you at least tell me what the ranges for ELCs one, two, and three are? I'm working on a monster level progression and as it's to be one of only four player races in my personal campain setting, I want to make sure it's balanced properly. Savage Species, dispite having originated the idea of monster classes, provides woefully little guidance on balancing them. Thanks in advance. And a cookie for all your hard work to date. :cookie:
YabaTheWhat 08-24-06, 12:20 PM	Alright, I'll post the FP/ECL table. Just remember, this is still my work, and I will be very annoyed if others start taking credit for it. FEATURE POINTS BY EFFECTIVE CHARACTER LEVEL ECL Minimum |--Balanced--| Maximum Increment FP FP Min FP Max FP 0+CL -30 FP 10 FP 14 FP 18 FP N/A 1+CL 19 FP 30 FP 40 FP 46 FP 20 2+CL 47 FP 53 FP 65 FP 71 FP 23 3+CL 72 FP 79 FP 92 FP 99 FP 26 4+CL 100 FP 108 FP 123 FP 131 FP 29 5+CL 132 FP 140 FP 156 FP 165 FP 32 6+CL 166 FP 175 FP 193 FP 202 FP 35 7+CL 203 FP 213 FP 232 FP 242 FP 38 8+CL 243 FP 254 FP 275 FP 286 FP 41 9+CL 287 FP 298 FP 320 FP 332 FP 44 10+CL 333 FP 345 FP 369 FP 381 FP 47 11+CL 382 FP 395 FP 420 FP 433 FP 50 12+CL 434 FP 448 FP 475 FP 489 FP 53 13+CL 490 FP 504 FP 532 FP 547 FP 56 14+CL 548 FP 563 FP 593 FP 608 FP 59 15+CL 609 FP 625 FP 656 FP 672 FP 62 16+CL 673 FP 690 FP 723 FP 740 FP 65 17+CL 741 FP 758 FP 792 FP 810 FP 68 18+CL 811 FP 829 FP 865 FP 883 FP 71 19+CL 884 FP 903 FP 940 FP 959 FP 74 20+CL 960 FP 980 FP 1019 FP 77 This is what I mean when I refer to incremental growth. In linear growth, each level is worth as much as the previous level. In incremental growth, each level is worth more than the previous level, but the value increases by fixed increments. In the table above, each level is worth a fixed increment of 3 more than the previous level. In an exponential system, the increase in value would be a percentage of the previous level's value. Linear growth encourages multiclassing, but makes for a dull game. Most physical (weapon) combat classes grow in a nearly linear progression, so I had to make attack bonuses grow incrementally in value to balance them with spellcasters. Spellcasters grow in power exponentially (individual spells grow in power, and they get more, increasingly powerful spells), but their development can be squeezed into an incremental growth system given sufficient leeway. Incremental growth is thus a compromise between the development rates of different classes with which a creature's ECL needs to balance. As a creature's ECL gets higher, it is more likely to outclass an equivalent-level fighter in a one-on-one comparison, while being outclassed by spellcasters in a similar comparison. The reverse is also true; at very low levels, a creature will often outclass an equal-level spellcaster, yet fall short of an equal-level weapon-combat class.
YabaTheWhat 08-24-06, 12:43 PM	Transposing a bit of info from the older forum. Hill giant characters possess the following racial traits. - Giant Type [3 FP] — +14 Strength [165-60+18h = 123 FP], –2 Dexterity [-3 FP], +8 Constitution [22 FP], –4 Intelligence [-5 FP], –4 Charisma [-5 FP]. —Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. [0 FP] —Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet. [25 FP for reach] —A hill giant’s base land speed is 40 feet. [0 FP] —Low-light vision. [1 FP] —Racial Hit Dice: A hill giant begins with twelve levels of giant, which provide 12d8 Hit Dice [(12+1)x4 = 52 FP], a base attack bonus of +8 [120 FP], and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +8, Ref +4, and Will +4 [(12+1)x2 = 26 FP]. —Racial Skills: A hill giant’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 15 x (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Jump, Listen, and Spot. [12x1 = 13 FP] —Racial Feats: A hill giant’s giant levels give it five feats. [0 FP, standard] — +9 natural armor bonus. [9x6 = 54 FP] —Special Attacks (see above): Rock throwing. [3 FP] —Special Qualities (see above): Rock catching. [4 FP] —Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A hill giant is automatically proficient with simple weapons [2 FP], martial weapons [9 FP], light and medium armor [3+4 = 7 FP], and shields [3 FP]. —Automatic Languages: Giant. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc. [0 FP] —Favored Class: Barbarian. [0 FP] —Level adjustment +4. [see below] Total = 454 FP, ECL = CL + 12 (12 hd, LA+0) balanced. This means that a hill giant, whose only significant benefits are his ability score bonuses and natural armor, is roughly worth his hit dice, and not worth his listed level adjustment. One thing to note is that, because attack bonuses and ability score bonuses both grow incrementally (rather than linearly) in value, the value of stacking attack bonuses must be calculated accordingly. The value of the hill giant strength bonus is calculated as the value of +30 strength (+15 bonus) minus the value of +16 strength (+8 bonus). This process does not affect the cost of the highest ability score. Only strength and dexterity score values stack with attack bonuses, regardless of whether either is the highest bonus. Mental ability score bonuses stack with spell save DC increases in a similar manner. Stone giant characters possess the following racial traits. - Giant type [3 FP] — +16 Strength [225-85+21h = 161 FP], +4 Dexterity [9 FP], +8 Constitution [22 FP], +2 Wisdom [4 FP]. —Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. [0 FP] —Space/Reach: 10 feet/10 feet. [25 FP] —A stone giant’s base land speed is 40 feet. [0 FP] —Darkvision out to 60 feet [3 FP] and low-light vision [1 FP]. —Racial Hit Dice: A stone giant begins with fourteen levels of giant, which provide 14d8 Hit Dice [14x4 = 56 FP], a base attack bonus of +10 [170 FP], and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +9, Ref +4, and Will +4 [(14+1)x2 = 30 FP]. —Racial Skills: A stone giant’s giant levels give it skill points equal to 17 x(2 + Int modifier) [(14+1)x1 = 15 FP]. Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, and Spot. A stone giant has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in rocky terrain [2 FP (conditional bonus)]. —Racial Feats: A stone giant’s giant levels give it five feats. [0 FP] — +11 natural armor bonus. [66 FP] —Special Attacks (see above): Rock throwing. [3 FP] —Special Qualities (see above): Rock catching. [4 FP] —Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A stone giant is automatically proficient with simple weapons [2 FP], martial weapons [9 FP], light and medium armor [3+4 = 7 FP], and shields [3 FP]. —Automatic Languages: Giant. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc. [0 FP] —Favored Class: Barbarian. [0 FP] —Level adjustment +4. [see below] Total = 595 FP, ECL = CL + 14 (14HD, LA+0) overpowered. If they dropped 1 point of natural armor, they'd be balanced.
EntropicShadow 08-24-06, 04:40 PM	First of all, Yaba, let me tell you how much I appreciate your work here. I am starting to build a new campaign world, and this is going to make race design much easier for me. Just one question, if you have the time. What is the undead type worth? I know the features that come with it are great, and they get a crap-ton of immunities. However, the type itself seems like it may be worse than humanoid. There are a number of spells that target undead specifically or work better against them, and Turning just seems to make it a liability.
Templario 08-24-06, 05:44 PM	Yaba, does your system works for templates or just races? IN any case, I would ask you to FP a Human with the Draconic Template of Races of the Dragon :)
GothiousRex 08-24-06, 05:48 PM	does the fact that your system comes out with the 2 giants LA as +0 and not +4 mean that there are "issues" with your system? or that Wizards just came up with the values off the top of their heads? (not criticizing to slag the system...just have to question it when it comes out to such a large discrepancy and perhaps improve it in the process) also... isn't having Giant racial HD a liability to some extent? eg. a Fighter gets d10 hp/level and +1/lvl ATK bonus and also the racial HD skill selection is somewhat limited compared to class skills. (I'm presuming a Giant player would likely take a Fighter or equivalent because of the great STR/CON benefits of the race and the penalties to CHA/INT)
Grey_Mage 08-25-06, 03:49 PM	Also... Im curious about what youd see in the Dream Dwarf from Races of Stone as far as FP goes? *shrugs* when you find the time of course.
Kresalak 08-25-06, 04:27 PM	does the fact that your system comes out with the 2 giants LA as +0 and not +4 mean that there are "issues" with your system? or that Wizards just came up with the values off the top of their heads? (not criticizing to slag the system...just have to question it when it comes out to such a large discrepancy and perhaps improve it in the process) also... isn't having Giant racial HD a liability to some extent? eg. a Fighter gets d10 hp/level and +1/lvl ATK bonus and also the racial HD skill selection is somewhat limited compared to class skills. (I'm presuming a Giant player would likely take a Fighter or equivalent because of the great STR/CON benefits of the race and the penalties to CHA/INT) It shows that the officials LAs make races vastly underpowered. My own analysis shows both Hill and Stone giants as LA +0 as well.
poetria 08-26-06, 12:59 PM	Is there a one stop shop list in .doc form or other downloadable form regarding the Feature Points that I can get somewhere?? :bigeyes:
Delbert_Less 08-26-06, 01:51 PM	Keishaar A race of feline humanoids, somewhat similar to Catfolk from RotW and Khajiit from TES. Yabba, once again I ask for you assistance in analyzing this race for me. I'm also not sure about that "Sweets Affection" feature, so any of your tremendous ideas would be welcomed. • +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution • Medium: As Medium creatures, Keishaars have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Low-Light Vision: Keishaar can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. • Keishaar base land speed is 30 feet. • Soft fall: A keishaar may treat a fall as if it was 10 feet lower. • Keeper of secrets: Keishaars are immune to detect thoughts and modify memory spells and similar spells or effects. • Strange Outlooks: Keishaar is permanently under the effect of Undetectable Alignment spell. A successful Dispel Magic check on keishaar against DC = 12 temporary suppress this ability for 1 minute. • Sweets Affection: A Keishaar feel uncontrollable urge to eat sweets every day. Each time keishaar see a sweet-stuff he must make a DC = 10 Will Save or fall under the effect of suggestion spell that compel him to eat those sweets. If the sweets are in others’ possession, keishaar is influenced to steal them. Once he eats sweets, keishaar gains immunity for this ability for a day. • +2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks. • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional) + Keishaan. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, and Sylvan + number of regional languages. • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass keishaar’s rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
YabaTheWhat 08-26-06, 02:01 PM	Is there a one stop shop list in .doc form or other downloadable form regarding the Feature Points that I can get somewhere?? :bigeyes: Why do people keep asking this question? :PAlso... Im curious about what youd see in the Dream Dwarf from Races of Stone as far as FP goes? I'd have to pick up a copy of Races of Stone before answering that, unless you can find a preview on Wizards' website. I currently have preview links for the Goliath, Raptoran, Sharakim, and Whisper Gnome. does the fact that your system comes out with the 2 giants LA as +0 and not +4 mean that there are "issues" with your system? or that Wizards just came up with the values off the top of their heads? (not criticizing to slag the system...just have to question it when it comes out to such a large discrepancy and perhaps improve it in the process) The issue relates back to imbalances in the core rules themselves. As far as the feature points system is concerned, it is as balanced as the rules allow. The giants evaluated may have a slight edge over a pure fighter hitdie-for-hitdie, but a reasonable combination of prestige classes should close the gap entirely, and a spellcaster with equal hitdice to the giants will actually outclass them. isn't having Giant racial HD a liability to some extent? eg. a Fighter gets d10 hp/level and +1/lvl ATK bonus and also the racial HD skill selection is somewhat limited compared to class skills. (I'm presuming a Giant player would likely take a Fighter or equivalent because of the great STR/CON benefits of the race and the penalties to CHA/INT) The giant's racial hit dice are supposed to be a liability. Each hit die by itself is worth less than a class level. Instead of getting class features (such as better base attack bonus or extra feats) to accompany their hit dice, giants get ability score bonuses, natural armor, reach (in this case 10 ft), and a couple minor odds & ends. Yaba, does your system works for templates or just races? IN any case, I would ask you to FP a Human with the Draconic Template of Races of the Dragon :) It works for templates, but there is a catch. Because templates can be applied to creatures of any ECL, and creatures of a higher ECL have a higher ECL/HD ratio, a template with fixed-value bonuses will be worth less to a higher-ECL creature than to a lower-ECL creature. Some templates also have scaling features, which may actually be worth more to a creature with more racial hit dice. The short version is that the level adjustment for a template will vary based on the creature to which it is applied. Reminder to self: spec out the undead type with immunities & vulnerabilities, review custom races immediately above & below this post.
AMGriffin 08-26-06, 02:07 PM	Hey Yaba, I created a half-human/drow and was wondering if you give your input on what its LA should be, I designed it with LA+1 in mine but I think it may be too strong. Racial Traits • +2 Intelligence Half-drow possess the same sharp intellects of their drow parentage. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-drow have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-drow base land speed is 30 feet. • +4 bonus to saving throws against sleep spells and similar magical effects, as well as a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. • Darkvision out to 90 feet • +1 racial bonus on Listen and Search checks, and a +2 bonus on Spot checks. • 1 Extra feat at first level • Spell resistance 6+character level/2 (round up) • Spell-Like Abilities: Half-Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per week: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the half-drow’s class levels. • +1 racial bonus on all will saves against magical effects • Drow Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-drow is considered a drow. • Automatic Languages: Common and Drow. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-drowtakes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count. Half-Drow are versitaile just as their human parents are. • Level adjustment: +1
Grey_Mage 08-26-06, 02:34 PM	How about this: Dwarf. +2 con, -2 dex- dwarves are hardy but not exactly nimble. 90' Darkvision movement- 20' Size- medium stonecutting. Stability. Weapon familiarity- Dwarven Waraxe and Urgosh. +1 caster level on Divination spells. +1 Diplomacy check with [Earth] Creatures. Dream Sight- Can see etherial creatures without penalty. Favored class- Druid. LA+0 Its that last ability thats got me stumped.... how to measure dream sight?
Lord Welkerfan 08-26-06, 04:29 PM	Having read only the first three pages, I cannot say whether this has been changed yet. Yaba: I know that you have stated your opinions about ability scores, and I agree with them. However, the flaws in your system in relation to ability scores are, in my opinion, not actually the scores themselves, but other things. The most-often stated example of your ability scores being too high is that of Natural Armor vs. Dex. You value an increase of Dex at 4FP and an increase in Natural Armor at 6FP. The Dex bonus, however, grants more bonuses than the Natural Armor increase, despite its AC bonus being less useful. This is a problem not with the cost of the Dex bonus, but with the cost of the Natural Armore bonus. Natural Armor should cost the same as a Dex increase, as its more useful AC bonus balances out with the other benefits of a Dex increase. Therefore, Natural Armor should cost 4FP per point (or at most 5FP), not 6FP.
YabaTheWhat 08-28-06, 12:11 PM	Having read only the first three pages, I cannot say whether this has been changed yet. Yaba: I know that you have stated your opinions about ability scores, and I agree with them. However, the flaws in your system in relation to ability scores are, in my opinion, not actually the scores themselves, but other things. The most-often stated example of your ability scores being too high is that of Natural Armor vs. Dex. You value an increase of Dex at 4FP and an increase in Natural Armor at 6FP. The Dex bonus, however, grants more bonuses than the Natural Armor increase, despite its AC bonus being less useful. This is a problem not with the cost of the Dex bonus, but with the cost of the Natural Armore bonus. Natural Armor should cost the same as a Dex increase, as its more useful AC bonus balances out with the other benefits of a Dex increase. Therefore, Natural Armor should cost 4FP per point (or at most 5FP), not 6FP. This has been addressed numerous times. Technically, saying that ability scores are fine but everything else is wrong has the same effect as saying that ability scores are wrong and the allotment per level is wrong. However, since you bring up natural armor specifically, let's work with an example. As written, a natural armor bonus of +1 would be 6 FP, +3 would be 18 FP, +5 would be 30 FP, +10 would be 60 FP, etc. Say we reduce the value of natural armor to 4 FP per point. This means that NA+3 would be 12 FP, NA+5 would be 20 FP, NA+10 would be 40 FP, etc. Meanwhile, Dex +2 (+1) would be 4 FP, Dex +6 (+3) would be 15 FP plus 6 FP for the highest score (21 FP total), Dex +10 (+5) would be 30 FP plus 12 FP for the highest score (42 FP total), Dex +20 (+10) would be 85 FP plus 27 FP for the highest score (112 FP total), etc. Ability score bonuses scale incrementally, whereas armor class bonuses scale linearly. Ability score bonuses essentially amount to bundled discounts. They cost less than the sum of their individual components, but more than any one component. This is done intentionally to encourage the use of ability score adjustments to define a creature, yet still allow for the use of individual special features (such as natural armor) when an ability score adjustment is not appropriate. It also compensates for stacking bonuses (such as natural armor with dex bonus), without making any one method for gaining a particular bonus stand out as obsurdly more powerful. With the particular value of a dex bonus to AC, keep in mind the conditions which make a creature lose its dex bonus. ¤ Armor cap (not applicable to dodge bonus) ¤ Cannot see opponent (blindness or opponent is invisible) ¤ Cowering or Stunned ¤ Grappling ¤ Immobilized or Paralyzed or Unconscious ¤ Surprised or Flatfooted Meanwhile, nothing makes a creature lose its natural armor bonus (or luck bonus, or deflection bonus, or size bonus), but certain attacks do ignore natural armor. ¤ Touch-based spells or abilities ¤ Incorporeal attacks Considering how much easier it is to lose a dexterity or dodge bonus than to bypass a natural armor bonus, the natural armor should definitely be worth more. Bonuses that cannot be bypassed at all are worth even more than natural armor. • +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution [+4-3 = 1 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, Keishaars have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Low-Light Vision: Keishaar can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. He retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] • Keishaar base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Soft fall: A keishaar may treat a fall as if it was 10 feet lower. [3 FP] • Keeper of secrets: Keishaars are immune to detect thoughts and modify memory spells and similar spells or effects. [3 FP] • Strange Outlooks: Keishaar is permanently under the effect of Undetectable Alignment spell. A successful Dispel Magic check on keishaar against DC = 12 temporary suppress this ability for 1 minute. [3 FP] • Sweets Affection: A Keishaar feel uncontrollable urge to eat sweets every day. Each time keishaar see a sweet-stuff he must make a DC = 10 Will Save or fall under the effect of suggestion spell that compel him to eat those sweets. If the sweets are in others’ possession, keishaar is influenced to steal them. Once he eats sweets, keishaar gains immunity for this ability for a day. [-0.5 FP, see below] • +2 racial bonus on Listen and Move Silently checks. [2 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional) + Keishaan. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Gnoll, and Sylvan + number of regional languages. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass keishaar’s rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.[0 FP] Total = 12.5, LA+0 balanced. The "sweets affection" feature does not provide a handicap in situations where they would have no access to the desired resource. So long as the party brings a bit of money with them when they go to a city, they should be able to buy sufficient supplies to handle this problem. Unless they run into a poisoned candied apple or a sugar ooze after a bout without supplies, it shouldn't even be an issue. Racial Traits • +2 Intelligence Half-drow possess the same sharp intellects of their drow parentage. [4 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-drow have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. [0 FP] • Half-drow base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • +4 bonus to saving throws against sleep spells and similar magical effects [1 FP], as well as a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects [1 FP]. • Darkvision out to 90 feet [3.5 FP] • +1 racial bonus on Listen and Search checks [1 FP], and a +2 bonus on Spot checks [1 FP]. • 1 Extra feat at first level [6 FP] • Spell resistance 6+character level/2 (round up) [14 FP] • Spell-Like Abilities: Half-Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per week: dancing lights [1/2 = 0.5 FP], darkness [7/2 = 3.5 FP], faerie fire [4/2 = 2 FP]. Caster level equals the half-drow’s class levels [3 FP]. • +1 racial bonus on all will saves against magical effects [1.5 FP] • Drow Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-drow is considered a drow. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Drow Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). [0 FP] • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-drowtakes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count. Half-Drow are versitaile just as their human parents are. [0.5 FP] • Level adjustment: +1 Total = 42.5 FP, LA+1 overpowered. How about this: Dwarf. +2 con, -2 dex- dwarves are hardy but not exactly nimble. [+4-3 = 1 FP] 90' Darkvision [3.5 FP] movement- 20' [-3 FP, see below] Size- medium [0 FP] stonecutting. [see below] Stability. [1 FP] Weapon familiarity- Dwarven Waraxe and Urgosh. [1 FP] +1 caster level on Divination spells. [1 FP] +1 Diplomacy check with [Earth] Creatures. [0.25 FP] Dream Sight- Can see etherial creatures without penalty. [4x4 = 16 FP + 1 FP caster level, see below] Favored class- Druid. LA+0 Its that last ability thats got me stumped.... how to measure dream sight? • Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. [1.5 FP] I'm not sure what "stonecutting" is, but dwarven stonecunning is worth the value shown in the dwarven evaluation. Similarly, the modified dwarf listed above takes a greater penalty for his fully-reduced speed than a normal dwarf takes for his partially-reduced speed. The Dream Sight ability is a partial effect of the See Invisibility spell, useable at will. They can see ethereal creatures, but not native incorporeal or invisible creatures. It seems appropriate to reduce the ability to the equivalent of a first-level spell at will. As written, they're going to be LA+1 underpowered. If we treat the speed as dwarven partial speed reduction and replace stonecutting with stonecunning, they have 24 FP (ignoring the 1/4 for the diplomacy bonus with earth creatures). For future reference, please do not post copyrighted material unless it has been made public by the copyright holder (in this case WotC). Just one question, if you have the time. What is the undead type worth? I know the features that come with it are great, and they get a crap-ton of immunities. However, the type itself seems like it may be worse than humanoid. There are a number of spells that target undead specifically or work better against them, and Turning just seems to make it a liability. Traits: An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). —No Constitution score. [see below] —Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] —Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms [5 FP], compulsions [5 FP], phantasms [3 FP], patterns [2 FP], and morale effects [3 FP]). —Immunity to poison [10 FP], sleep effects [3 FP], paralysis [5 FP], stunning [3 FP], disease [8 FP], and death effects [6 FP]. —Not subject to critical hits [5 FP], nonlethal damage [5 FP], ability drain [6 FP], or energy drain [8 FP]. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution) [12-8 = 4 FP, see below], as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects [6 FP]. —Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score [see below], although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score. —Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless). [50-30 = 20 FP, see below] —Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks. [see below] —Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed. [-1 FP] —Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead. [-1 FP] —Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry. [2 FP (simple weapons)] —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor. [As creature.] —Vulnerable to turn/rebuke ability [-6 FP] —Undead do not breathe [15-15 = 0 FP], eat [0 FP, see below], or sleep [0 FP, see below]. All of the effects and immunities of not having a constitution score are accounted in the individual features that follow, so no separate cost is incurred for having the non-ability listed. Several features overlap, so reductions in value have been made where appropriate. The benefits of not eating or sleeping have already been accounted prior to their listing, though not breathing provides suffocation immunity. Note that the racial features & traits no longer list the undead type as turning all of a creature's hit dice to d12 hitpoint values. If this is listed under a specific tempalte or creature type, its value is awarded as appropriate. Because undead without an intelligence score are not playable, the value of that feature need not be considered. Transferring concentration to Charisma has a value equal to half the creature's charisma bonus, or 1/4 of the creature's charisma penalty, as appropriate. Total = 104 FP For an undead creature with no racial hit dice and no other features, being undead provides some major immunities. Undead get a lot of hitpoints, but all their other hitdie features are weak, so undead hitdice will offset the benefits of the creature type relatively quickly.
EntropicShadow 08-28-06, 01:29 PM	Wow, thanks for that Yaba. I was thinking about making a PC undead race, kind of like warforged is for construct. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. So, if I am understanding your system right, you put undead at LA +4. That really puts the necropolitan template into perspective.
AMGriffin 08-28-06, 01:40 PM	Okay revised it, basically removed the spell-like abilties. • +2 Intelligence Half-drow possess the same sharp intellects of their drow parentage. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-drow have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-drow base land speed is 30 feet. • +2 bonus to saving throws against sleep spells and similar magical effects, as well as a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. • Darkvision out to 90 feet • +1 racial bonus on Listen and spot checks, and +2 bonus on Search checks. • 1 Extra feat at first level • Spell-Like Abilities: Half-Drow can use the following spell-like abilities once per day: dancing lights, darkness, faerie fire. Caster level equals the half-drow’s class levels • Drow Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-drow is considered a drow. • Automatic Languages: Common and Undercommon. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). • Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass half-drowtakes an experience point penalty, her highest-level class does not count. Half-Drow are versitaile just as their human parents are. • Level adjustment: +1
Kresalak 08-28-06, 01:58 PM	Please note that the SR you gave the half-drow is completely and utterly worthless. It will never protect you from anything. For example, at 10 HD, you have SR of... 11. That means any equal level caster (11th level) cannot possibly fail to penetrate it. Only at very low levels (1-4) will it give you anything more than a 10% chance to resist a spell from an equal level spell. Just get rid of it, instead of the SLAs.
AMGriffin 08-28-06, 02:05 PM	Makes Sense. Done.
HomerJaySimpson13 08-28-06, 05:55 PM	what would the FP of an 8th level spell usable at will be? The spell in question is "Ghost Form" from SpC caster level min to caster the spell.
Alder_Fiter_Galaz 08-28-06, 07:23 PM	So what about templates like the feral template?
RoCkEtInToXiCaTe 08-28-06, 10:45 PM	Is there some kind of a list we can sign up for an e-mail or PM of when this is finished? Because I've been anxiously waiting for quite some time.
Delbert_Less 08-29-06, 01:08 AM	Thank you again, Yabba. I hope you'll complete you work eventually. :)
Viper2 08-29-06, 02:59 AM	Is there some kind of a list we can sign up for an e-mail or PM of when this is finished? Because I've been anxiously waiting for quite some time. I second that... might you have any way of making a mailing list? I *really* like your system and an anxious for it's release.
Jodjod 08-29-06, 03:06 AM	If ya could take a look at these then it'd be great. Dwarves Changes- Changed their Charisma penalty to Dexterity, reduced their bonus vs. magic by 1 and gave them a minus one on Diplomacy and Bluff. Even if they aren’t as un-charismatic as a charisma penalty implies, they are probably still on the unsociable side. •+2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity. •Medium size. •Dwarf base land speed is 20 feet. However, dwarves can move at this speed even when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load (unlike other creatures, whose speed is reduced in such situations). •Darkvision: Dwarves can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and dwarves can function just fine with no light at all. •Stonecunning: This ability grants a dwarf a +2 racial bonus on Search checks to notice unusual stonework, such as sliding walls, stonework traps, new construction (even when built to match the old), unsafe stone surfaces, shaky stone ceilings, and the like. Something that isn’t stone but that is disguised as stone also counts as unusual stonework. A dwarf who merely comes within 10 feet of unusual stonework can make a Search check as if he were actively searching, and a dwarf can use the Search skill to find stonework traps as a rogue can. A dwarf can also intuit depth, sensing his approximate depth underground as naturally as a human can sense which way is up. •+1 racial bonus on attack against orcs and goblinoids. •+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type. Any time a creature loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, such as when it’s caught flat-footed, it loses its dodge bonus, too. •Stability: A dwarf gains a +4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped when standing on the ground (but not when climbing, flying, riding, or otherwise not standing firmly on the ground). •Weapon Familiarity: Any dwarf who has Weapon Group (axes) is also proficient with the dwarven waraxe and the dwarven urgrosh. •+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison. •+1 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like effects. •+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items. •+2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal. •-1 Racial penalty on Bluff and Diplomacy checks. •Automatic Languages: Common and Dwarven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Orc, Terran, and Undercommon. Goblins Changes- Removed their charisma penalty (the Dhakaani goblins have a much greater sense of self-worth than goblins in most settings), reduced their Move Silently and Ride bonuses to +3, to keep them in line with the Hobgoblin. •+2 Dexterity, -2 Strength •Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters. •A goblin’s base land speed is 30 feet. •Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and Goblins can function just fine with no light at all. •Weapon Familiarity: All goblins automatically have Weapon Group (Flails and Chains) as bonus feat. •+3 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks. •Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc. Half-Elves Changes- Removed the Diplomacy and Gather Information bonuses, and instead given the ‘Adaptable and Skillful’ Extraordinary ability. Given a +1 Bonus on Knowledge (Local). •Medium size. •Half-elf base land speed is 30 feet. •Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. •Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. •Adaptable and Skillful (Ex)- Half-Elves may choose from the following list of feats at first level: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Animal Affinity, Deceitful, Deft Hands, Diligent, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Nimble Fingers, Persuasive, Skill Focus or Stealthy. Additionally, she may select any one skill and designate it as a permanent class skill for all her classes. •+1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. •+1 racial bonus on Knowledge (Local) checks. •Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf. •Automatic Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages, such as Druidic). Half-Orcs Changes- Gave an +3 on intimidate and survival, weapon familiarity, removed their intelligence penalty. •+2 Strength, -2 Charisma •Medium Size •Half-Orc base land speed is 30 feet. •Darkvision: Half-Orcs (and Orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-Orcs can function just fine with no light at all. •Weapon Familiarity: Any half-orc who has Weapon Group (axes) is also proficient with the orc double axe. •Half-Orcs receive a +3 bonus to Survival. Their Orc lineage instills a primal knowledge of how to survive in the wilderness. •Half-Orcs receive a +3 bonus to Intimidate. They are naturally intimidating. •Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. •Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal.
xver 08-29-06, 05:13 AM	If ya could take a look at these then it'd be great. While Yabba could do it better, I'll give it a look see, if you want a quick reply. Dwarves Changes- Changed their Charisma penalty to Dexterity [0 FP], reduced their bonus vs. magic by 1 [-2 FP] and gave them a minus one on Diplomacy and Bluff [-1 FP]. Even if they aren’t as un-charismatic as a charisma penalty implies, they are probably still on the unsociable side. 14 (Standard Dwarf) - 3 = 11 FP ~ LA +0 (balanced) Goblins Changes- Removed their charisma penalty [3 FP] (the Dhakaani goblins have a much greater sense of self-worth than goblins in most settings), reduced their Move Silently and Ride bonuses to +3 [-1 FP], to keep them in line with the Hobgoblin. 11 (Standard Goblin) + 2 = 13 FP ~ LA +0 (balanced) Half-Elves Changes- Removed the Diplomacy and Gather Information bonuses, [-2 FP] and instead given the ‘Adaptable and Skillful’ [3 (feat) + 1? (skil) = 4 FP] Extraordinary ability. Given a +1 Bonus on Knowledge (Local) [0.5 FP]. 9 (Standard Half-Elf) + 2 = 11 FP ~ LA +0 (balanced) Note: I had to guess on the value of adding a class skill. Half-Orcs Changes- Gave an +3 on intimidate and survival [3 FP], weapon familiarity [1 FP], removed their intelligence penalty [3 FP]. 1 (Standard Half-Orc) + 7 = 8 FP ~ LA +0 (underpowered)
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-29-06, 08:55 AM	So what about templates like the feral template? I've asked about this one before, and the answer is you can't determine the LA of a template - only the resultant templated creature. The reason for this is, while you can determine the FP value of the features of a template, whether those FP are enough to push the LA value of the creature up depends on what its ECL is normally. An addition of 18 FP makes a big difference to an ECL = CL creature, like a goblin. It's not so significant for something with an already large difference, such as a minotaur. Furthermore, a template may reduce or negate an advantage or penalty for the base race. For example, take a dwarf and make it undead - its racial Con bonus is no longer helpful to it, as it no longer has a Con score - that cuts the FP value of the combination down a bit. (Adding insult to injury, the normally Con-based checks undead can still make, mainly Concentration, are now keyed to Charisma... where dwarves have a penalty). And it's just the opposite for a typical elf, with its Con reduction being rendered irrelevant, making the overall combination slightly more valuable.
Argaud 08-29-06, 10:31 AM	With the particular value of a dex bonus to AC, keep in mind the conditions which make a creature lose its dex bonus. ¤ Armor cap (not applicable to dodge bonus) ¤ Cannot see opponent (blindness or opponent is invisible) ¤ Cowering or Stunned ¤ Grappling ¤ Immobilized or Paralyzed or Unconscious ¤ Surprised or Flatfooted Meanwhile, nothing makes a creature lose its natural armor bonus (or luck bonus, or deflection bonus, or size bonus), but certain attacks do ignore natural armor. ¤ Touch-based spells or abilities ¤ Incorporeal attacks That is true, but more Dex also gives: + initiative + bonus to hit at range + bonus to some important skills (ride, hide, move silently, etc) I have been following the threads of the FP system, YabaTheWhat, and I am convinced you are into something very interesting, but I can't agree with the principle all ability modifiers are the same. I think you need to break down the benefit/penalties of each ability and figure out the real cost in FPs. I also agree with those who post that Natural Armor is not worth so many FPs. The benefits are just not worth them.
AMGriffin 08-29-06, 11:19 AM	Hell, Why not just assign feature points based on what exactly a particular ability score bonus does? EDIT: I just did this using Yaba's FP system to the best of my abilities. I am quite certain I did not do it properly however. Strength (total of 7 FP) -Melee attack rolls. (+2 FP) -Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling). (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.) (+2 FP) -Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. These are the skills that have Strength as their key ability. (1.5) FP -Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like). (1.5 FP) Dexterity (Dex) (8.5 FP) -Ranged attack rolls, including those for attacks made with bows, crossbows, throwing axes, and other ranged weapons. (+1 FP) -Armor Class (AC), provided that the character can react to the attack. (1 FP) -Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly. (2 FP) -Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. These are the skills that have Dexterity as their key ability. (4.5 FP) Constitution (Con) (5.5 FP) -Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level). (2 FP) -Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats. (2 FP) -Concentration checks. Concentration is a skill, important to spellcasters, that has Constitution as its key ability. (.5 FP) -If a character’s Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character’s hit points also increase or decrease accordingly. (1 FP) Intelligence (Int) (8.5) -The number of languages your character knows at the start of the game. (1 FP) -The number of skill points gained each level. (But your character always gets at least 1 skill point per level.) (3 FP) -Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Knowledge, Search, and Spellcraft checks. These are the skills that have Intelligence as their key ability. (4 FP) -A wizard gains bonus spells based on her Intelligence score. The minimum Intelligence score needed to cast a wizard spell is 10 + the spell’s level. (.5 FP) Wisdom (Wis) (6 FP) -Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells). (2 FP) -Heal, Listen, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks. These are the skills that have Wisdom as their key ability. (3 FP) -Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers get bonus spells based on their Wisdom scores. The minimum Wisdom score needed to cast a cleric, druid, paladin, or ranger spell is 10 + the spell’s level. Monks may also add their wisdom modifier to their AC. (1 FP) Charisma (Cha) (6 FP) -Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, and Use Magic Device checks. These are the skills that have Charisma as their key ability. (4 FP) -Checks that represent attempts to influence others. (1 FP) -Turning checks for clerics and paladins attempting to turn zombies, vampires, and other undead. (.5 FP) -Sorcerers and bards get bonus spells based on their Charisma scores. The minimum Charisma score needed to cast a sorcerer or bard spell is 10 + the spell’s level. (.5 FP) I am almost 100% certain I measured various attributes improperly but I will attempt my reasoning for giving that particular ability that FP score to the best of my ablities.
Argaud 08-29-06, 12:08 PM	—Large size. –1 penalty to Armor Class, –1 penalty on attack rolls, –4 penalty on Hide checks, +4 bonus on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits double those of Medium characters. [0 FP] I gotta disagree with this calculation. Large also gives a +4 to trip, +4 to sunder, +4 to bull rush, +4 to disarm, +4 to overrun, +4 to break stuff, etc. All tactics common for large races (they often have the feats). Large means more damage with weapons (2.5 to 4.5 more damage per hit) And enhanced carrying capacity But has some more (minor) drawbacks Gear is more expensive (important at low level) although it also has more hps Cramped conditions are more likely (arguably very situational and usually not an issue)
Ysera_the_destroyer 08-29-06, 12:47 PM	I've been complaining about FP for a long time now on other topics so now im voicing my concern here. YABATHEWHAT IS NOT A DESIGNER OF ADnD 3.5 He doesn't know what is balanced or not. Just because he brags about having this neato system doesn't change the fact that it's completely broken. Stop making him the final say in everything. It's really ******* me off. HE IS NOT THE ARBITER OF THE RACES FORUM!!!! HE IS NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHAT IS BALANCED OR NOT!!! FROM NOW ON IF YOU ARE POSTING ON MY RACES DONT EVALUATE THEM ON FEATURE POINTS!!!
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-29-06, 12:54 PM	I've been complaining about FP for a long time now on other topics so now im voicing my concern here. YABATHEWHAT IS NOT A DESIGNER OF ADnD 3.5 He doesn't know what is balanced or not. Just because he brags about having this neato system doesn't change the fact that it's completely broken. Stop making him the final say in everything. It's really ******* me off. HE IS NOT THE ARBITER OF THE RACES FORUM!!!! HE IS NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHAT IS BALANCED OR NOT!!! FROM NOW ON IF YOU ARE POSTING ON MY RACES DONT EVALUATE THEM ON FEATURE POINTS!!! That's D&D, not ADnD, kid. Except Yaba doesn't really brag about it, the system is still in its creation phase and modifiable based on others' input, and even in this preliminary state his system works better than WotC's, which as anyone who pays attention can tell you, has some huge imbalances of its own. You want to talk about broken, you talk to WotC. You want to try to achieve balance without reworking the D&D ECL system as a whole, you work with Yaba or come up with something better on your own. Hope you feel better after venting, though. ;)
Ysera_the_destroyer 08-29-06, 12:58 PM	You make some good points there and I am now changing my philosophy. there is nothing wron with Yabathewhat. It's all xver's fault. He is the one going around and acting like Yaba is his girlfriend. He acts like he has to spread the word of Yaba wherever he goes. It's his attitude that pisses me off. No offense to you Yaba I think its a great idea it just needs some more work to balance it. Also the final word shouldn't be some fixed system, it should be play testing.
Shaggy_Shaggs 08-29-06, 01:07 PM	Also the final word shouldn't be some fixed system, it should be play testing. Agree with this part 100%. That's one of the reasons I like the idea of a user-created ECL measurement system, particularly one that receives review (even flame now and then) and change in a forum like this. WotC may be in this as a business, but they just don't have the collective manhours available to test things the way a forum of hundreds, maybe thousands (not sure how many visit the Races board) of individuals do. I would like to see a new thread started, with current FP value estimates for each ability, and the table of target FP values for each ECL. Preferably, Yaba will start this new thread himself, so that when significant changes occur he can edit the first post of the thread to keep it current. If he'd like to keep the previous discussion and argument about it handy for reference, he could always just link to this thread in the new one.
Ysera_the_destroyer 08-29-06, 02:16 PM	I would like to see a new thread started, with current FP value estimates for each ability, and the table of target FP values for each ECL. I didn't mean play test to find the FP values of certain things. I meant play test to find the ECL of things without FPs at all.
Lotus Crane 08-29-06, 02:17 PM	You should really e-mail me the current draft of your document some time so I can write a more valid response, but here's the best I can do with what I see here: Generally, zero-level spells are worth 2 FP per use per day, and first-level spells are worth 6 FP per use per day. However, the gnome's first-level spell has conditions attached, making it less useful than the normal spell. Its value has been reduced proportionately. What is the value of a spell or spell-like ability that can be used at will? The same as if it could be used 5 or more times per day, like with magic items? Also, shouldn't spells get a FP discount if they are given to a creature that already has such a high ECL that a LA 0 caster would have gotten them a long time ago? For example, if a race is already LA +4, shouldn't the ability to use a 1st level spell at will be worth only 22 or 15 FP, instead of 30, because it's likely that particular SLA is now largely eclipsed or even obsoleted by the party's access to 3rd level real spells? How about we pick up the kobold next. It has a few traits worth examining. Total = 11 FP The kobold gets a speed boost and natural armor. Natural armor is worth 6FP per point, as is a deflection bonus. These bonuses do not suffer a maximum (as the dexterity AC bonus), cannot be revoked or negated, and work while flatfooted. While natural armor does not deflect touch attacks, most touch attacks come either from grappling creatures (why more creatures don't grapple I will never understand) and incorporeal creatures. Speed increases are also valuable. While it may not be as obvious on a small creature, where the speed penalty (one of the bigger drawbacks of small size) masks the benefit, try pushing through a medium-size race with a 40 ft base speed some time. To afford its benefits, the kobold takes a major hit to its ability scores. I can't help but notice that you're assigning FP values linearly, rather than exponentially like magic item costs. If +1 natural armor is worth 6 FP, I would think +2 natural armor would be worth roughly 15 FP instead of 12, and that +3 would be 27 FP instead of 18. Also, if you're using FP as a means to fix the balance of certain abilities and races, I'm surprised you don't alter the relative value of deflection and natural armor bonuses; deflection bonuses are clearly more useful, especially when you consider all the ranged touch spells added by the Spell Compendium. I would think the baseline would be more like 5 FP for +1 natural armor, 7 FP for +1 deflection. You also don't seem to be assigning circumstantial discounts or cost increases. If +10 speed offers a more obvious benefit to a Medium creature than to a Small creature, shouldn't it be worth more FP for a Medium creature than a Small creature? The value of damage reduction varies based on both the amount of DR and the type of weapon needed to bypass it. The base value for DR is 12 FP per point. (DR 2/- would be worth 24 FP.) DR/epic is worth 11 FP/point, DR/alignment and DR/adamantine are worth 10 FP/point, DR/magic is worth 8 FP/point, DR/silver and DR/coldiron are worth 6 FP/point, and DR/weapontype (slashing/piercing/bludgeoning) is worth 6 FP/point. When multiple bypass methods exist, use the least expensive method to determine cost. I think you should adjust those values, based on how common it is for adventurers to have those kinds of weapons. Cold iron is a much more useful form of DR because any adventurer who isn't expecting to fight specific creatures will probably choose to get adamantine weapons, because they are better at destroying doors, walls, and other objects, and are less likely to be sundered, and because cold iron weapons cost extra gold to enchant. I don't have a complete picture of your scale since I don't have a copy of your document, but just theorizing off the numbers here, it might be something like... DR/- 20 FP (explained below) DR/epic 10 FP (obviously limited by level, cost, and simple availability) DR/cold iron 9 FP (the extra cost for enchantments would make these unpopular with adventurers unless they're specifically hunting fey or demons) DR/alignment 8 FP (somewhat uncommon, and more expensive to incorporate than just magic) DR/adamantine 7 FP (most adventuers with no particular preference will probably want these, since they can ignore hardness and don't get sundered easily) DR/weapon type 6 FP (a "free" benefit already built into all weapons, though you still need the right kind) DR/silver 5 FP (the cheapest alternative material, and it can even be applied to a weapon after it's already been made, by using a relatively cheap item) DR/magic 4 FP (what weapon isn't magic after 3rd level?) Furthermore, when multiple bypass methods exist, there should be a discount to the easiest to bypass method. For example, DR/magic or silver should probably cost only 3 FP per point, since it's easier to overcome than just DR/magic. When a combined DR exists, half the cost of the easier-to-beat DR should be added to the hardest-to-beat cost. For example, DR/adamantine and magic (meaining that a weapon must be both), would cost 9 FP per point, because it's harder to overcome than just DR/adamantine. The reason the cost of DR/- was increased to 20 FP per point, is because DR/alignment, cold iron, and epic (meaning that a weapon must be all three), would cost 19 FP per point, and yet can still be beaten, while DR/- can't.
YabaTheWhat 08-29-06, 02:31 PM	Hell, Why not just assign feature points based on what exactly a particular ability score bonus does? Because then no race would every have an ability score bonus. Why? Because they could get the bonuses they wanted at a lower cost, ignoring those which won't help them. I gotta disagree with this calculation. Large also gives a +4 to trip, +4 to sunder, +4 to bull rush, +4 to disarm, +4 to overrun, +4 to break stuff, etc. All tactics common for large races (they often have the feats). Large means more damage with weapons (2.5 to 4.5 more damage per hit) And enhanced carrying capacity But has some more (minor) drawbacks Gear is more expensive (important at low level) although it also has more hps Cramped conditions are more likely (arguably very situational and usually not an issue) I've taken all the benefits and drawbacks into consideration. Excluding the extra reach gained by large creatures, the benefits and drawbacks of being large, small, or tiny generally balance out to the point where it is reasonable to award them as a no-cost package.[brief discussion] Honestly, this started out as nothing more than a few suggestions on how to tell whether a creature without racial hit dice needed a level adjustment. The post was about one printed page, and took maybe an hour to write off the top of my head. (It's linked from an earlier page of this topic.) At the time, I didn't plan to go beyond that one post. When people started asking about specific features, and some values didn't fit into the original scheme, I started elaborating it. Then people started asking me about more powerful creatures, and I decided to expand the system. Basically the whole thing just sort of grew. I've hit a few snags along the way, and had to make compromises between what would provide ideal balance and the imbalances already present in the rules as written. For the most prominent example, refer to the post where I posted the FP/ECL table, and the description of linear & exponential power growth. In an ideal design, characters would get points (like feature points, but designed from the ground up rather than the frame down) to spend on abilities or racial traits. Essentially they'd be able to spend XP, and no one would need to worry about LA or ECL. (The closest I've heard about is a Classless system, which I have not actually seen firsthand.) In that sort of system, racial features and class features would be interchangeable. Honestly it does bother me a bit that others are using feature points without knowing the latest values, or simply guess at values without any reference point besides one or two unrelated evaluations they've seen. However, I do understand why it happens. Obviously I do not have infinite free time. Lots of people are making custom races, and I only get to review a handful of them. Sooner or later I'll publish a first draft, giving everyone a central point of reference. Then people can review it to patch the holes and iron out the wrinkles. Until then, even a rough approximation of feature points often proves more effective than guesses based on the outdated and incomplete materials from Savage Species.
YabaTheWhat 08-29-06, 02:43 PM	You should really e-mail me the current draft of your document some time so I can write a more valid response, but here's the best I can do with what I see here Therein lies the rub. Values have been tweaked repeatedly over time, not just from comments in this thread, but over the course of the various reviews and requests. Some values have been set based on estimates, because I have been unable to find valid points of comparison. (I'm still trying to determine how to value level drain, for example.) My charts are essentially ready for first draft release & review at this point, but I haven't had any time to work on a write-up document in months. This means that I either need to rewrite the document, or release the charts with minimal explanation and fill in the why and how on a case-by-case request basis. While I'd rather write the full document and host it in PDF form, my time has been increasingly limited of late.
Kresalak 08-29-06, 02:44 PM	I've been complaining about FP for a long time now on other topics so now im voicing my concern here. YABATHEWHAT IS NOT A DESIGNER OF ADnD 3.5 He doesn't know what is balanced or not. Just because he brags about having this neato system doesn't change the fact that it's completely broken. Stop making him the final say in everything. It's really ******* me off. HE IS NOT THE ARBITER OF THE RACES FORUM!!!! HE IS NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHAT IS BALANCED OR NOT!!! FROM NOW ON IF YOU ARE POSTING ON MY RACES DONT EVALUATE THEM ON FEATURE POINTS!!! His system is broken? If you want to claim that, you're going to have to prove it. I may not agree with some things (I think SLAs have to be assessed at a completely individual level, since they differ in power greatly even by level, for one), but as a whole his system works quite well.
Caliborn 08-29-06, 03:57 PM	I'd just like to pop in and say I find this system to be inacurate, underpowered, and generally lacking in kick-ass-ittude. Have a nice day. :)
Lotus Crane 08-29-06, 04:06 PM	While I'd rather write the full document and host it in PDF form, my time has been increasingly limited of late. I know what you mean; I start my new job tonight, and I go back to school next week. Still, could you at least tell me what you think about my analysis and recommendations for the value of the various DR's? Because I was very surprised to see you really thought DR/adamantine was worth more than DR/cold iron, for example.
Lady Maedhros 08-29-06, 04:27 PM	You also don't seem to be assigning circumstantial discounts or cost increases. If +10 speed offers a more obvious benefit to a Medium creature than to a Small creature, shouldn't it be worth more FP for a Medium creature than a Small creature? This would be my main issue as well. I think the problem with the kobold - that the wider community seems to see it as imbalanced, while Yaba's system would define it as acceptable - is that it's a one-trick pony. For a race to be balanced, oddly enough, you don't want synergy. Take a look at the elf. Their automatic proficiencies aren't much use to a fighter or ranger, but they're very helpful to a young wizard, or especially to a cleric. That same cleric, though, doesn't care much about the Dex bonus. He does love the Listen, Search, and Spot bonuses, since he doesn't have points to spare on those cc skills, but they synergize with his Wisdom to make him a decent low-level alarm system. The rogue finds the auto-detect secret doors meaningless, because he's Searching every room for secret doors already, but he loves the bonus to Dex. The elf and the human are, IMO, the two best-balanced LA +0 races. Because no matter what class you play, you get a decent boost to help you along. The reason the half-orc is such an atrocity is that there's no reason to ever play one when you could be a dwarf. And even if you do believe that +2 Strength is godly and beyond comprehension in its awesomeness for any melee character, you're still going to be a fighter or a barbarian. There are only two classes that get anything out of the race at all. Even a ranger would generally rather be a human or an elf or a dwarf - that Int penalty means one less maxed skill, and skills are as important to rangers as to rogues. That's why, when you balance orcs, you can't do it with attack bonuses with certian weapons or versus certian foes, and you shouldn't do it with bonuses to Will saves. That just makes him better at being a barb or fighter, and he doesn't need to be better at that. He's already good at it. You need to give him bonuses to Fort saves or weapon familiarities and especially take away one of his penalties, so he's got something for casters or skill monkeys. In that sense the DMG's guidelines for ability scores are almost right - you just can't balance a Str boost with a Cha penalty. Not because the scores aren't of equal value, but because only one in fourteen characters who wants that Str boost gives a crap about Cha. In the same vein, the reason people see kobolds as weak is because, while they make good rogues and arcanists, that's all they do. As soon as you need more than two decent ability scores, you can't afford to be a kobold, especially if one of those scores is Strength. So while they may be perfectly in line with other races in terms of nifty things they have going for them, they're still not a balanced race to play as a PC. And there are always considerations that are just too complex to break down. The undead type, for example. Yaba valued it a few posts ago as worth more than 100 FP, including a (to my mind, too minor) penalty for vulnerability to turning and positive energy. But that doesn't account for the many spells that affect only undead or have an extra negative effect on undead, like powerful light spells and any number of necromancy spells. I would say their magic vulnerabilities readily account for their magic immunities, and their chief strength lies in physical immunities only (massive damage, crits, sneak attack, what-have-you). But how do you calculate that? And how do you account for access to Libris Mortis, Spell Compendium, Lords of Madness, Complete Divine, or other resources that may fundamentally change the balance of the undead type in a way that isn't true for types that lack their complicated relationship to magic? Feature points is a cool system and a very good baseline (minus minor points like overvaluing natural armor), but I don't think it's possible to create a system that's sophisticated enough to account for when a Small creature has +4 Int and -2 Str and +2 on Spellcraft checks and nothing else. I think the whole thing is great, and I'd happily, even eagerly use it as a quick litmus test of my own races, but I'm a little concerned by how wholeheartedly some people seem to be embracing FP as the one and only gospel of race creation.
YabaTheWhat 08-29-06, 04:34 PM	Still, could you at least tell me what you think about my analysis and recommendations for the value of the various DR's? Because I was very surprised to see you really thought DR/adamantine was worth more than DR/cold iron, for example. DR/adamantine is worth more because it is harder to bypass. Less creatures have DR/adamantine, so less natural weapons bypass it. Adamantine weapons cost more. It's basically determined by rarity. The less often DR is bypassed, the more useful it is, and the longer it remains useful. (In my current configuration, DR is the only single feature with its own full-page chart. Balancing DR is quite cumbersome.) I'm honestly not thrilled with how v3.5 handles damage reduction. A typical adventuring fighter needs to carry an arsenal to bypass even the standard damage reduction types. Then there are combination DR types, as with the rakshasa. And of course there is now DR/Epic which, if I read it correctly, is DR/+6 (aka DR/better magic). It becomes a question of which is more likely, the stone giant having a large silver shortsword, the pixie flying around with a cold iron dagger, the army captain having a +1 longsword, or the king's blacksmith getting his hands on an adamantine meteor.
Lotus Crane 08-29-06, 04:44 PM	DR/adamantine is worth more because it is harder to bypass. Less creatures have DR/adamantine, so less natural weapons bypass it. Adamantine weapons cost more. It's basically determined by rarity. The less often DR is bypassed, the more useful it is, and the longer it remains useful. But magic cold iron weapons cost more than magic adamantine weapons, and even if less monsters have DR/adamantine, I think more adventurers would choose adamantine weapons to protect them from being sundered, and so they can ignore the hardness of most objects and barriers. In any game I've played in or run, most PC's default to adamantine weapons unless they have a special reason not to.
xver 08-29-06, 07:47 PM	Ok, I apologize for pehaps being over zealous with the application of Feature Points. It's just that I like to have something concrete to work with. I'm really trying to be helpful, but perhaps I'm being too clinical. On the other tentacle, if I just spouted off a LA in some disscussion (wether based on feature points or not), I'd inevitably be asked where I got these numbers and/or how to adjust them up or down as desired. Therefore, I just provide the numbers from the start. This serves two goals. Firstly, it lets the race creator (and other readers) know where I'm getting the numbers from and gives them fine values to disagree with, rather than a single number they have take or leave. Secondly, if they agree with the structure of Feature Points, it gives them a baseline to make adjustments on a fine scale. If they don't, well, it's not like they're worse off for having another opinion. For an example, take Ysera_the_destroyer's thread on his revised Orcs and Half-Orcs. Most of the posters prior to me said that his Orcs where actually weaker than Standard Orcs. The word "nerf" was used on several occasions. When I added my 2cp, I included some rough FP numbers to back up what I said. Which was, by the way, that his Orcs where about as powerfull as Standard Orcs and that his Half-Orcs, while better than Standard Half-Orcs, where still less powerfull than the other core races. But what response did my attempt to be helpfull get? He went off the deep end, that's what. He insulted Yaba and myself, and was altogether very rude. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yaba, I have some questions about the errors I made evaluating the Pixie's FP. For starters, how did you arrive at the value for thier stat modifiers? Also, where did I go wrong on the DR? I don't think I understand SLAs at all. (I thought they where worth (SL*2)+1.) Thanks for your time. Oh, and I apologize for sending flak your way by being too Feature Points happy for my own good.
YabaTheWhat 08-29-06, 08:40 PM	Xver, like I said, I'm not thrilled with it, but I understand why you (and others) are doing it. Once I find the time to finish the document, or give up and publish the tables, most of that will be sorted out, and the project will move on to the next step; people will then be able to look at the numbers, try out various combinations, fill in the missing bits, voice informed opinions, etc. The biggest problem right now is that different people are using information from different stages in the development process (and as stated, some are just guessing). For example, I started out with 4x(spell level)+2 per SLA and no caster level cost in the beginning, and got numerous complaints, which was why I reevaluated them. I tried making SLAs 2x(spell level)+1 per SLA plus 2x(caster level) for the highest-cost SLA. It didn't balance properly, and I went back to 3x(spell level)+1 per SLA and 1x(caster level) for the highest SLA. Recently I made additional tweaks to the cost of high-level SLAs. There's also a table for calculating use-at-will cost, which I've referenced a few times but have not posted, and some people just assumed the once-per-day cost was the use-at-will cost (with disasterous results).
Land Outcast 08-29-06, 11:08 PM	Kudos Yaba, a mighty project you've launched yourself into! I'll keep an eye here...;)
Jodjod 08-30-06, 02:02 AM	Thanks, xver.
xver 08-30-06, 02:57 AM	No problem, Jodjod. Although, you might want to have Yaba give my numbers a reviewing. My recent attempt to give FP values to a Pixie was an unmitigated disaster and I may have made some errors evaluating your races as well.
Jodjod 08-30-06, 03:23 AM	Heh, even if it turns out to be a tad off it's still given me more of an idea about them. I'm sure I'll have other changes for you to evaluate soon! ;)
Argaud 08-30-06, 10:31 AM	Because then no race would every have an ability score bonus. Why? Because they could get the bonuses they wanted at a lower cost, ignoring those which won't help them. This is true, and some 'discount' for ability modifiers is warranted. However, they are not all the same and they shouldn't be worth the same FPs. I've taken all the benefits and drawbacks into consideration. Excluding the extra reach gained by large creatures, the benefits and drawbacks of being large, small, or tiny generally balance out to the point where it is reasonable to award them as a no-cost package. This statement is so wrong that it jumped from the screen and stabbed me in the eyes. Sorry, but as long as you believe being large is balanced with being medium your system won't work.
zae 08-30-06, 10:49 AM	I don't know, Large with normal reach... Consider that most games occur in dungeons (the combat side does. And it's combat where you're gaining your advantages as well). Quite often, dungeons are designed for a group of Medium characters to do the dungeon shuffle (minesweeper, tank, caster, other caster, all in a straight line) so that the dragon can hit them all with the same breath weapon. Er, I mean... Anyway, a huge amount of the time, the group will find themselves in a corridor that's 5' across. So being in cramped conditions is likely to crop up a lot of the time for a Large character. What are the penalties for that? Enough that, if you're suffering from them at least half of the combat rounds in a game, they balance out the grapple bonus etc? Heck, I remember going through one game where I could cast "Enlarge Person" on myself a good round number of times: 0 Wait, no, while approaching the caverns some goblins attacked out in the open. So a single time I could benefit from it. So it happens often enough. But then again, I can't be bothered checking what the penalty is. So maybe it's not enough.
YabaTheWhat 08-30-06, 11:26 AM	Large size includes a -1 penalty to attack rolls, a -1 universal penalty to AC, a 10 ft speed increase, and numerous bonuses & penalties to skills, special attacks, and situations. Using half value for penalties, the bonuses will outweigh the penalties going in both directions (from medium to large and back to medium). Using equal values for bonuses and penalties, the bonuses and penalties come out roughly the same. (This of course excludes the extra reach for large size, as originally stated.) This is why the size change is considered an even trade. Consider, for example, that a large creature takes up a 10 ft x 10 ft area. In an enclosed space, this poses a major problem, because they take some major penalties for squeezing. Outside, they can move freely, but if they get caught in the open, they can be attacked by 12 opponents simultaneously instead of 8, and can be flanked much more easily. Without reach, this is a vulnerability. However, as stated, it is considered part of the size change package, so the value does not need to be separately calculated. Now if a race gets something like Powerful Build, which awards the bonuses of size and bypasses the penalties, that is worth a significant amount. But that is also not an actual size change. This is true, and some 'discount' for ability modifiers is warranted. However, they are not all the same and they shouldn't be worth the same FPs. I responded to this complaint at least 6 times in the first two pages of this thread. Please go back and read my responses there.
Argaud 08-30-06, 01:28 PM	I responded to this complaint at least 6 times in the first two pages of this thread. Please go back and read my responses there. I did. I belive you are wrong, and I suspect I am not the only one. Some abilities are simply more useful than others. For instance, only a few classes benefit from high Cha to a significant degree, yet all (except undead characters) benefit from high Con. As for size, yes, reach and move are two big advantages (mind you, many large creatures have 30' move, half-ogres for instance) but even without them the +4 to almost all combat maneouvers (+3 to some due to the -1 to hit from size) it is still a huge advantage. Most corridors are 10' wide, not 5', cramped conditions are very uncommon. And frankly, there is not much difference between being swarmed by 8 creatures than 12: You die unless they are very weak compared to the character. If nothing else the increase in damage from all attacks definitively tips the FP balance in favor of the large character.
The GOP Dragon 08-30-06, 05:04 PM	How does one determine which score is "better" than another? I did. I belive you are wrong, and I suspect I am not the only one. Some abilities are simply more useful than others. For instance, only a few classes benefit from high Cha to a significant degree, yet all (except undead characters) benefit from high Con. Yes, but WotC disagrees. Dwarves have a Constitution bonus with a penalty to only one mental score. Half-Orcs have two mental score penalties becasue of their Strength bonus. Does this mean that Strength is more game-breaking than Constitution?
greatamericanfolkhero 08-30-06, 05:26 PM	It means Half-Orcs are badly designed.
GothiousRex 08-30-06, 05:51 PM	"We will not tire, we will not falter and we will not fail" - George Bush ugh complete aside here is it just me or does anyone else feel completely offended by a quote from a Bush? don't care whether it is Sr or Jr (though I have a bit more respect for Sr) heck quoting president's seems kind of creepy... hmm maybe I'll add the following presidential quote to my Sig "I did not have sex with Miss Lewinsky" alright venting overwith... intuitively I tend to agree that not all stats are equal, but they are a darn sight more equal than pre-D&D3.0 yet I still agree with Yaba's take on using one-size-fit-all scoring for them because it would seem a nightmare to rank them based on their value for class chosen. Also, the difference in value likely would not be significant enough to take notice.
The GOP Dragon 08-30-06, 07:01 PM	Large size includes a -1 penalty to attack rolls, a -1 universal penalty to AC, a 10 ft speed increase, and numerous bonuses & penalties to skills, special attacks, and situations. Using half value for penalties, the bonuses will outweigh the penalties going in both directions (from medium to large and back to medium). Using equal values for bonuses and penalties, the bonuses and penalties come out roughly the same. (This of course excludes the extra reach for large size, as originally stated.) This is why the size change is considered an even trade. How would the FP breakdown on that go?
Kadasbrass 08-30-06, 07:29 PM	YabaTheWhat, I just wondering how you would rate some items in terms of Feature Points that are not commonly seen: Immune to Altitude Sickness (I'm thinking 1 FP since its limited to conditional in order to take effect) Use the modifer of a different Ability Score for the Ability Modifer added to a skill. Example: The Jungle Kobold (Unearthed Arcana) uses Dex modifer in the place of Str modifer for a bonus to Climb. This creature treats the temperature as if it was 20 Degrees higher then normal. This last one I'm not sure it would warrent a feature point, but its something new I planned on adding to race I'm working on. The creature is now less likely to take damage due to cold weather, but more now more likely to take it due to heat.
YabaTheWhat 08-31-06, 09:35 AM	h8 double posts
YabaTheWhat 08-31-06, 09:38 AM	Immune to Altitude Sickness (I'm thinking 1 FP since its limited to conditional in order to take effect) Probably 1/2 FP, for exactly the reason you stated. The field is so narrow that it is barely worth considering. Use the modifer of a different Ability Score for the Ability Modifer added to a skill. Example: The Jungle Kobold (Unearthed Arcana) uses Dex modifer in the place of Str modifer for a bonus to Climb. This one is actually worth consideration. Thus far, I've been using 1 FP for duplexing (putting together abilities that make one ability score more valuable) plus the value of the immediate bonus gained by the difference in the creature's ability score adjustments. For example, a creature with +4 dex, -4 strength, and dex-based climb would lose a -2 penalty and gain a +2 bonus to the skill immediately. The feature would be worth 1 FP for the bonus, plus 1/2 FP for losing the penalty, plus 1 FP for duplexing, total 2.5 FP. It's one of those values that may get tweaked later, but for the most part, it seems to work. This creature treats the temperature as if it was 20 Degrees higher then normal. Treat this like a size change from medium to small. It makes them suited to a slightly different environment, so that the bonuses and penalties will even out in the long run.
Argaud 08-31-06, 02:17 PM	Yes, but WotC disagrees. Dwarves have a Constitution bonus with a penalty to only one mental score. Half-Orcs have two mental score penalties becasue of their Strength bonus. Does this mean that Strength is more game-breaking than Constitution? If we are going by the official material the DMG (page 173) very clearly states that some abilities are better than others. Strength is the most valuable, charisma the least. Yava is already ignoring this table, which is part the reason why his FP system fails with half-orcs. Personally I don’t think strength is the most valuable ability. It is important because most characters are meleers (only arcane casters aren’t, really) but I am pretty sure that if we break down the benefits of each ability with FPs, strength won’t be the most valuable one. Constitution, however, could be. Yes. Dwarves are awesome. But we already knew that.
Skunkape 08-31-06, 04:17 PM	Glad to see that people are taking the time to work out systems to attempt to determine abilities by race. Thanks for taking the time to work out a system Yaba. Looking forward to the final doc.
Kadasbrass 09-01-06, 07:19 PM	Thanks YabaTheWhat, you've helped me on my Chinchilla Race :) Also looking forward to a final document.
Rerecros 09-01-06, 07:34 PM	Hey yabba, It looks like you've been tinkering with the calculations for the value of ability scores. You've kinda lost me, what do those s and h variables stand for? Dex and Str stack? Right out these rules in one spot, make sure to dumb it down for me. :P
General_Krueger 09-01-06, 07:58 PM	This seems like a great system you've got here, but there is one problem that I can see: No reference for the people your rating. If you walk up to a random thread about a new race and start giving people what the race is worth in FP, they are more than likely going to wonder what FP are, and if they want to use your system, they probably would like to see some charts and crap like that. Well, I know your working on it. All I'm saying is, the biggest mistake you've made would be rating people's races with a yet-to-be-seen system. All we see are the end results, not how you got them. Although I will admit, this is brilliant, and probably half of what people want to know is in this thread for reference... But there are five pages in this thread and I don't know anybody who has the attention span to read through every post. So, if you were to give a percentage on how far done you were with the info on this system, what would it be?
Keenath 09-04-06, 02:49 PM	There is one problem that I can see: No reference for the people your rating. If you walk up to a random thread about a new race and start giving people what the race is worth in FP, they are more than likely going to wonder what FP are...Right, because this thread isn't IN HIS SIG or anything... I'm gonna try this out a bit. Have I got it, or is something here a little out of whack? (And yes, this is an Elf modification for an oriental-style game, with heavy influence by the M:TG Kamigawa setting.) Kitsune * +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. [1 FP] * Medium size [0 FP] * Kitsune base land speed is 40 feet. [6 FP] * +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusion and enchantment spells or effects. [4 FP] * Low-Light Vision [1 FP] * Weapon Proficiency: Kitsune receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the katana, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. [1.5 FP] * +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. [3 FP] A kitsune who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check... [1 FP] * +2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. [2 FP] * Favored Class: Shugenja (or Cleric, depending on setting) [0 FP] Total cost: 19.5 FP So that would indicate these are too good for LA 0, but not good enough for LA +1. Are you entirely sure about that costing for speed increases? It seems very high to me. In either case, I think it probably should cost less for an increase from 20 to 30 than 30 to 40; 30 is such a standard of movement speed, bringing a small creature up to standard doesn't seem as good as making a medium creature significantly faster than everyone around him.
AMGriffin 09-04-06, 02:59 PM	If we are going by the official material the DMG (page 173) very clearly states that some abilities are better than others. Strength is the most valuable, charisma the least. Yava is already ignoring this table, which is part the reason why his FP system fails with half-orcs. Personally I don’t think strength is the most valuable ability. It is important because most characters are meleers (only arcane casters aren’t, really) but I am pretty sure that if we break down the benefits of each ability with FPs, strength won’t be the most valuable one. Constitution, however, could be. Yes. Dwarves are awesome. But we already knew that. I did break down the FP values of each ability a page back or so (most likely improperly) but constitutition was the WEAKEST ability. It was considerably behind the others too, even if I DOUBLED the bonus it got from each Hit point per level.
Argaud 09-04-06, 04:13 PM	I did break down the FP values of each ability a page back or so (most likely improperly) but constitutition was the WEAKEST ability. It was considerably behind the others too, even if I DOUBLED the bonus it got from each Hit point per level. I am afraid I have to disagree with your breakdown of FPs. For instance, not all skills are worth the same, for instance. Some are vital (spot and listen) and are used constantly, and tend to save your party's butts a lot. Others are situational, handy, and used every so often (ride, spellcraft, etc) and many, many are worthless, you will use them only once every several levels or are very easily duplicated by simple magic (last time you used decipher script in a game, or jump, or forgery?). Likewise some of the benefits/drawbacks given by abilities vary with level. High Dex will give you a fixed AC bonus forever (over 75% of the time, at least, since characters are caught flat-footed only in the first round of some fights) but a hp bonus from high Con only gets better as levels are gained. I could point some other consideration I think should be done, but mostly I should just write my own evaluation of each ability, something I am not sure I have the time or the interest to do right now. (Would anyone care, anyway?).
Viper2 09-04-06, 05:15 PM	Right, because this thread isn't IN HIS SIG or anything... I'm gonna try this out a bit. Have I got it, or is something here a little out of whack? (And yes, this is an Elf modification for an oriental-style game, with heavy influence by the M:TG Kamigawa setting.) Kitsune * +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution. [1 FP] * Medium size [0 FP] * Kitsune base land speed is 40 feet. [6 FP] * +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusion and enchantment spells or effects. [4 FP] * Low-Light Vision [1 FP] * Weapon Proficiency: Kitsune receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the katana, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats. [1.5 FP] * +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. [3 FP] A kitsune who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check... [1 FP] * +2 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. [2 FP] * Favored Class: Shugenja (or Cleric, depending on setting) [0 FP] Total cost: 19.5 FP So that would indicate these are too good for LA 0, but not good enough for LA +1. By Yaba's system, 10-14 FP was balanced for LA +0. So a bit dumbing down of their racial bonuses (perhaps the Dex ones to +1 since they get a bonus anyway), and a +1 against enchantments should lower it what, 4FP or so?
Keenath 09-04-06, 05:42 PM	By Yaba's system, 10-14 FP was balanced for LA +0. So a bit dumbing down of their racial bonuses (perhaps the Dex ones to +1 since they get a bonus anyway), and a +1 against enchantments should lower it what, 4FP or so? I think I may just remove the save bonuses, much as it pains me; that pulls it down to 15.5, which is getting close. Beyond that, I may just reduce the hide/move silent like you say. By the way (as I haven't read the whole thread), what's the proper range for LA +1?
Atirakis 09-04-06, 05:45 PM	How come you guys wont help me with my race? I stated everything and asked for feature points help and got ignored...
Keenath 09-04-06, 08:25 PM	How come you guys wont help me with my race? I stated everything and asked for feature points help and got ignored... Because we each hate you, personally, and don't want to help. Nah, just kidding. I didn't see your post, but it probably got lost in the static of discussion. When I get back from dinner, I'll see what I can see.
Atirakis 09-04-06, 08:38 PM	Medium Monstrous Humanoid Racial HD 3d8 Base Attack +3 Fort +3 Ref +3 Will +1 Skill Points 2+Int Class Skills Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim & Survival Speed 30' Str +4 Dex +2 Con +4 Int -2 Wis +0 Cha +0 Natural Armor +1 Special Abilities Low light Vision Alternate Form* A Mumreth that still has a tail assumes whenever it looks at the full moon. This is an involuntary change Will Save DC 30 to resist. It lasts until the moon sets the Mumreth is rendered unconcious or its tail is removed. Alternate Form Gargantuan Humanoid Base Attack -1 Speed 40' Str +30 Dex -2 Con +12 Int Changes to 3 Wis +0 Cha +0 Natural Armor +10 AC -4 (size) Slam Attack 2d6 Bite 2d8 Breath Blast (Su) Magic Energy 120' line dealing 1d6 per HD Favored Class Fighter Advancement By Class Level Adjustment +??? (Feature Points Crew HELP!) Here it is. I posted it in its own thread, I should have posted it on here first.
General_Krueger 09-04-06, 09:48 PM	Right, because this thread isn't IN HIS SIG or anything... I realize it's in his sig. :D I'm just wondering when he'll have it all done and ready to be veiwed. Plus there are 7-8 pages to read through and I don't really feel like reading through every single post to find out that what I want isn't in here. All I'm really asking for is how far along he is because I would like to create balanced races that people would like to play without having to rely on him to tell me whether it is balanced or not. Yeah, I realize I don't really have to follow his system at all. But, then there is the fact that my DM wont allow me to play as any race unless he knows it is balanced; or if it's not balanced that it has the proper level adjustment. My DM is a by-the-rules DM and follows the books only. He says I can play as custom races if I can show him that the races are properly balanced in some way. This points system is that "some way" that I'm looking for. :D I appologize profusely if I said anything wrong and will take it back if asked. :(
Keenath 09-05-06, 01:24 AM	I'm just wondering when he'll have it all done and ready to be veiwed. I appologize profusely if I said anything wrong and will take it back if asked. :( Well, it's kinda useless to keep hassling him about it. If you look at the thread any, somebody asks about once a week, "Is it ready yet? When will it be ready?" Probably best to just let it go; it'll be ready when it's ready and we'll all know about it. For that point, I'd say it might be useful to post what is there as a work-in-progress and edit the post to keep it updated; but it's not up to me, clearly.
Keenath 09-05-06, 01:33 AM	Here it is. I posted it in its own thread, I should have posted it on here first. Oh.... a saiyan. Joy.... First things first, you clearly didn't follow the book when assigning your racial hit dice. * 8-sided Hit Dice, or by character class. * Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (as cleric). * Good Reflex saves (usually; a humanoid’s good save varies). * Skill points equal to (2 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die * Proficient with all simple weapons, or by character class. * Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, or by character class. You've got d10 HD, full BAB, and two good saves instead of one. Anyway. It's very difficult to price that transformation; it's overpowering when it happens, but you can't control it. You can lose the ability permanently under the right conditions, and what happens to the LA then? The Frenzied Berserker is bad enough; this is an entire race of them. Thanks, but no thanks.
Atirakis 09-05-06, 02:16 AM	edited. Please ignore what they are and just help me...
Yuri_Zhivago 09-05-06, 11:15 AM	For instance, not all skills are worth the same, for instance. Some are vital (spot and listen) and are used constantly, and tend to save your party's butts a lot. Others are situational, handy, and used every so often (ride, spellcraft, etc) and many, many are worthless, you will use them only once every several levels or are very easily duplicated by simple magic (last time you used decipher script in a game, or jump, or forgery?) This is a fault on the part of the DM. If the DM does not craft challenges for his players so that every ability and skill the players invest in is used (and some that they don't), the game becomes stale. Ultimately, all abilities are equal in power and utility, or would be if players and DMs understood the difference between "Role Playing" and "Fancy Kill Chess". Yuri
YabaTheWhat 09-05-06, 01:09 PM	Sorry I haven't been answering requests lately. I mentioned a couple pages ago that some RL events are culminating... basically within the next week. I had hoped to postpone releasing a written document until I had time to write a written document. That way I could explain the reasoning behind the numbers, making discussion and tweaking into a smoother process. At this point, however, it doesn't look like the community at large will wait that long. I have hosted the an early release of the feature point charts here (http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf). Please do not contact me if the document is unavailable due to bandwidth limitations. Sorry it isn't neatly organized or adequately explained, but as I said, I haven't had an opportunity to clean it up, write explanations, verify certain balance aspects, or even look for other evaluated features that could have been included in the charts. Feel free to comment on whether specific values seem appropriate.
GothiousRex 09-05-06, 07:15 PM	thanks Yabathewhat
Argaud 09-05-06, 09:20 PM	This is a fault on the part of the DM. If the DM does not craft challenges for his players so that every ability and skill the players invest in is used (and some that they don't), the game becomes stale. Ultimately, all abilities are equal in power and utility, or would be if players and DMs understood the difference between "Role Playing" and "Fancy Kill Chess". Yuri Uh... nope. The books are full of useless feats, spells... and skills. Sure, you can build up a character roleplay around the forgery skill for a while, and have a lot of fun. And you can, every so often, find the Run feat useful for something. But if you pick one of official WotC adventures you can see that the 'challenge all the skills and abilities' line is ********. What the party needs are high Spot and Listen, decent Search and someone with good Diplomacy. A wand of Knock is infinitely better that investing your rogue's ever valuable skill points in Open Lock. All the fighter skills are crap. Etc, etc.
Viper2 09-05-06, 11:09 PM	Awesome Yaba, I for one appreciate your release of the charts. I'm definately looking forward to the explanations too, such as how to evaluate situational versions of features, like immunity to a certain kind of poison and the like. EDIT - Is a dive attack with a fly speed worth that much? I'm coming up with 70FP for Avariels (which you have to have the Races of Faerun book for) before that, plus I just let their weapons sit as they get two exotic weapons instead of four martial weapons. The problem is they are LA +3, and right now they are sitting on LA +2 overpowered.
TheAnthroDM 09-06-06, 12:56 AM	Not so tricky. Technically all it means is that an awakened animal has an unmodified INT score, where a normal animal has a modifier of either -10 or -8 (score of 1 or 2 respectively). Since the awakened animal doesn't have a modifier to its INT score, the lack of modifier is worth 0 FP. Remember, feature points are applied to the resulting creature, not to the changes that lead to the result (which is why templates would have a variable LA). For a race where the ability score bonus is something random, take the average (rounded up if bordering between two values). For example, a WIS bonus of 6+1d6 would be equivalent to a +10 (i.e. (6+(6+1)/2)=9.5 round up) bonus. Giving this sort of ability score adjustment would also be a bad idea, as it negates the concept of an "average" member of the race. The tricky part is giving a value to not having hands. :P Wouldn't that simply be the value for lacking both weapon slots, plus a negative value for each skill that it can't use? :confused:
TheAnthroDM 09-06-06, 12:57 AM	Fairy Tiny Humanoid -6 Str, +6 Dex, -6 Con, +4 Cha [- 6 FP + 15 FP -6 FP + 9 FP = 12 FP] Tiny Size: +2 bonus to Armor Class, +2 bonus on attack rolls, +8 bonus on Hide checks, –8 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits 1/2 those of Medium characters, a Fairy also has no natural reach and must be in the same square as her oppenant to do a melee attack. [0 FP] Fairy have a reach of 0 feet [-5 FP] Fairy have a base land speed of 20, and a Fly Speed of 40 feet with perfect manuverablitiy [44 FP] Low-Light Vision [1 FP] Spell-Like Abilities: Fairies can use the following abilities once per day: Dancing lights [1 FP], Detect Magic [1 FP], Faerie Fire [4 FP]. Caster level equal to 1/2 class levels(min 1) [Total 6 FP] Fairies gain Weapon Finese as a bonus feat. [3 FP] Fey-Blooded: Fairy are lesser fey, as such they are treated as Fey for any effects depended on race, even though they do no accautly have the fey type or its benefits.[0 FP] Favored Class: Druid, Ranger, Diviner, and Rouge [0 FP] Total FP 61 +2 Balanced Okay I tried Evaluating my own race, if I did anything wrong, please correct me. There are four favored classes, count only druid, the others are for a purpose unrelated to FP
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-06-06, 04:58 AM	Sorry I haven't been answering requests lately. I mentioned a couple pages ago that some RL events are culminating... basically within the next week. I had hoped to postpone releasing a written document until I had time to write a written document. That way I could explain the reasoning behind the numbers, making discussion and tweaking into a smoother process. At this point, however, it doesn't look like the community at large will wait that long. Heh, the price of fame (or infamy, there do seem to be people on both sides of the FP fence). Good luck with whatever important things are going on. I have hosted the an early release of the feature point charts here (http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf). Please do not contact me if the document is unavailable due to bandwidth limitations. Sorry it isn't neatly organized or adequately explained, but as I said, I haven't had an opportunity to clean it up, write explanations, verify certain balance aspects, or even look for other evaluated features that could have been included in the charts. Feel free to comment on whether specific values seem appropriate. I downloaded that and took a look, and I think my brain just exploded. That's a hell of a lot of information with little reference context. I look forward to seeing the annotated version, when you're ready and able to post it... meanwhile, I'm rather confused, heh. Still, thanks for what you've done thus far, and will do in the future when you can. It's said everyone complains about the weather but nobody does anything about it. One could have said the same for the ECL system, but it's obvious that a lot of work and thought has gone and is going into this.
Skunkape 09-06-06, 09:55 AM	I also wanted to say, Thanks Yabba! I looked over the charts as well and can see that you've spent quite a bit of time working on this. I'm sure those who are interested in your system appreciate the hard work, I know I do!
Keenath 09-06-06, 10:58 AM	Ooh, thank you for posting it, even incomplete. Let me see. First thing I notice is that the cost of Martial Weapons seems to have increased to one point per. They were previously 1/2 point each, is that a purposeful change? Also, doesn't 6 points seem excessive for a 1d4 bite? Oh yeah -- and is there an adjustment if the weapon is "always secondary"? What do you suppose would be the cost for the "cannot wear armor" penalty? For example, a Warforged has an innate +2 Armor bonus, but can't wear armor, so he can't improve that (unless he uses a feat to do so). Or similiarly, a creature with a large shell might have a +3 natural armor bonus, but be unable to use external armor because of the bulky carapace. What sort of buy-back value might that have? Surely "Cannot Use Equipment, One slot: -2 FP" can't be right for something that crippling! And last, peering at Prehensile Limb: So, wait.. I don't understand all the "shield slot" and "weapon slot" stuff. You can only use one shield at a time, so no matter what limb is holding it, you only have one shield slot, right? What's the correct cost for a simple four-armed creature, then? Standard one-primary, three-offhand, can't perform extra actions. Edit: Oh yeah. I couldn't find anything in the document about bonuses to particular special attacks, like a bonus to Trip or to Grapple. I'm thinking 1/2 FP per point or possibly 1 FP per point (though that seems excessive). What do you think?
aotrscommander 09-06-06, 12:35 PM	I appreciate the work you're done Yaba. I shall look foward to your final version; it will be of great help in checking my own gestimates on my new campaign world (I've got a lot of nonhumanoid Monster classes!) One question regarding DR though... what about FP for DR/two sorts of melee damage (E.g. DR/Slashing or Piercing)? I ask as I have one such creature.
SeptimusMagistos 09-06-06, 05:15 PM	Kitini (The Lost Ones) Kititni are a long-lost race of children who have defied the laws of growing up. Personality: Kitini tend toward chaos as their very means of existance breaks several natural and supernatural laws. Their life on the Kitini Isles tends to make them fearless and increase their wits somewhat. If Kitini go away from the isles, they may change their outlook on life. Physical Description: Kitini are short, about the same height as halflings. They look like a mix between fey and human children. They often dress in animal skins. Just as humans, Kitini look different and use different accessories, though they are akin to one another in a way. Relations: Kitini get along well enough with most other races. They tend to consider elves too stuffy and the elves usually dislike their kind of immortality. Kitini don't get along too well with half-orcs, and think that dwarves are way too greedy(but who doesn't?) Alignment: On average, Kitini tend to lean towards Chaos and Good because of their society, but there are exceptions, especially among those who have left the Kitini isles. Kitini lands: Kitini have a loose culture with tribes ruled in different ways from monarchys to democracies. They populate the Kitini Isles, a secret place which holds the key to transferring into their everyoung life. Their days are spent in endless activities, from feasting to fighting, from playing games to sleeping. The one thing they rarely do is work. Few come to their isles, though some exceptions are made. Often, children are lured in to become Kitini, usually human. Though this place may sound like paradise to some, beware, for Kitini Isles are full of deadly dangers, and not all can survive. Religion: Kitini have no pantheon of their own. The worship tends to be spread out across other pantheons, with everyone having their own set of beliefs. The usual way to go about religion for Kitini is to ignore it most of the time and pray to every god they've ever heard of in time of need. Language: Kitini do not have a language of their own. Instead, they've adopted the Common language, and though it is sprinkled with their own slang, it is still understandable. Names: Kitini tend to follow humans in their naming procedures. Most often, they use a nickname based on something they've done. Adventures: Kitini have daily adventures on Kitini Isles. If one has not been in danger of dying before lunch, it's considered a very slow day. Some Kitini leave the isles to explore the wider world, and those tend to carry on the trend of adventure. Kitini just aren't very suited to honest work. Kitini Racial Traits * +2 Dex, -2 Str. Kitini are agile but not very strong. * Small. * Kitini base land speed is 30 feet. * Never Aging. Kitini never age. They do not die of old age and do not go through age cathegories. * Automatic Languages Common. * Favored Class Fighter, Bard, Rogue. A multiclass Kitini's fighter bard or rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. However, if he has more than one of these classes, only the highest doesn't count. * Level Adjustment +0 Kitini racial feats: Birthright feats(Can only be taken at 1st level) Liberty's Child Your tribe was ruled by a democracy and it left you used to freedom. This feat provides the character with a +4 bonus to spells seeking to control them. True Kitini You were born as a match between 2 pureblood Kitini. This feat increases the character's Charisma by 2 but drops his wisdom by an equal amount. In addition, a character with this feat gains +2 to Knowledge(nature) checks. Newly lost You were brought into the isles of Kirini as a child and subjected to the rituals. This feat negates the Kirini racial score adjustments. It also gives a character with it favored class(any). Following the Leader You were born in a tribe led by a strong figure. A character with this feat gains +1 to attack and damage if the leader of the party he's in is alive. If the character is the leader of the party, this feat is treated as Born Leader instead. Born leader You were born to be a leader of your tribe. As long as you're in the lead, you're the best you can be. A character with this feat gains+1 to attack and damage if he's the leader of the party he's in. If he isn't this feat is treated as Following the Leader instead. Other Feats Beastslayer You have battled savaged beasts of the Kitini Isles all your life and have grown good at it. You get +2 to hit and damage vs. animals.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 06:43 PM	What gives? I just want a realisitic Saiyan race and I am busting my hump trying to make it playable and you guys just refuse to help me cause its a saiyan? Thats some bs!
TheAnthroDM 09-06-06, 07:07 PM	You can only use one shield at a time, so no matter what limb is holding it, you only have one shield slot, right? Since when? it's completely plausable you can use two shields at a time, you just couldn't use another weapon with those two shields, unless they were bucklers.
Nelyo 09-06-06, 07:23 PM	What gives? I just want a realisitic Saiyan race and I am busting my hump trying to make it playable and you guys just refuse to help me cause its a saiyan? Thats some bs! Okay, I'm not going to consider the alternate form with here, because it's obviously very powerful and worth a lot of points, but is uncontrollable and can be removed permanently. Medium Humanoid Racial HD 3d8 [12FP] Base Attack +3 [30FP] Fort +3 Ref +1 Will +1 [8FP] Skill Points 2+Int [4FP] Class Skills Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim & Survival Speed 30' Str +4 [12FP] Dex +2 [4FP] Con +4 [9FP] Int -2 [-3FP] Wis +0 Cha +0 Natural Armor +1 [6FP] Total: 82FP (Assuming I'm reading YabaTheWhat's PDF right) That puts it right in the neighborhood of ECL 3+CL balanced, so without taking Alternative Form into account, it doesn't need a level adjustment. If you wanted to put it directly on the number for ECL 3 balanced, just give a -2 to Wis or Cha. Then I'd suggest doing an acid test of a Mumreth with level 1 in some melee combat class (Fighter or Barbarian) and compare against a level 4 human/dwarf and see how they match up. If there's a discrepancy, by all means, post it back here so YabaTheWhat and the rest of the board can see if there's something that needs to be adjusted in this system. The Alternate Form is too powerful and unpredictable, the stat adjustments and natural armor alone come out to somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 FP (ECL 9+CL balanced), and that's not counting the natural attacks and breath weapon that has no elemental type. If I were you I'd make it a rule that any PC Mumreths already have their tails removed and save the alternate form for some NPC challenge.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 07:34 PM	Thank you so much! I pretty much assumed that since your not really you anymore when you transform that yeah it would just be for NPCs since most PCs arent going to want to transform into something that needs to be killed. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Keenath 09-06-06, 09:58 PM	What gives? I just want a realisitic Saiyan race and I am busting my hump trying to make it playable and you guys just refuse to help me cause its a saiyan? Thats some bs!I didn't "refuse to help just because it's a saiyan"; I told you the two problems with it and gave it back. I was expecting a reply along the lines of "Okay, I've fixed those problems, what's it worth now?" You've put your finger on the precise issue; as written, they're not playable. Nelyo has a good suggestion in just making PCs always be tailless. I still will point out that you've got the wrong HD size, BAB and saves for a humanoid. Humanoid hit dice are always 3/4 BAB and one good save. However! I have an easy fix. If you make these guys Monstrous Humanoid instead of Humanoid, they have d8 hit dice, full BAB, two good saves, and so on. That change costs you, I believe, three points for the spell-immunities... which puts you exactly balanced for an ECL 3 race (assuming you don't give them darkvision). And since the "transform into a raging beast" thing tends to suggest Monstrous Humanoid anyway, that seems like a really good fit. I pretty much assumed that since your not really you anymore when you transform that yeah it would just be for NPCs since most PCs arent going to want to transform into something that needs to be killed.It doesn't really have to be KILLED, just avoided or held until dawn.
Keenath 09-06-06, 10:17 PM	One question regarding DR though... what about FP for DR/two sorts of melee damage (E.g. DR/Slashing or Piercing)? I ask as I have one such creature. Let me take a stab at this. I think the Incriment column has something to do with this, but since he hasn't said what Inc means, I'll just have to estimate... Say you have DR 10/Silver or Magic. You would look at the 10 line on the DR chart and run across to look up the value for Silver and the value for Magic. DR 10/Silver is worth 32 FP, while DR 10/Magic is worth 42.* Since we want OR, take the lower value -- 32 -- and reduce it a little, because now there's an extra element that can bypass it (regardless of the cost of that element). So I would figure DR 10/Silver or Magic as somewhere around 26 FP. If you wanted AND, then you're making it HARDER to bypass, so you'd get a price increase. You start with the higher value -- 42 -- and increase a bit. I figure DR 10/Magic and Silver at around 50 FP. This is just wild guessing, though, so I may be completely out of whack; I'm just giving about a 20% adjustment either direction for being harder or easier to bypass. Going by that very rough estimate, I'd DR/Slashing or Piercing (that is, "defense against bludgeoning") as 20% lower than the cost of DR/Piercing. So DR 5/S or P would be 15 FP. * I personally think Magic DR should be cheaper than materials, because although the required weapon is itself more expensive, PCs can be reliably expected to have Magic weapons, but special materials are pretty uncommon. Come to that, why is DR/Slashing more expensive? Slashing is probably the most common damage type in the game; almost all the dual-damage-type weapons are "slashing and piercing". Doesn't that mean Slashing should be cheaper, as it's easier to find a weapon to bypass with? Personally I think the damage types should all be equal cost. Maybe it's just a typo.
Atirakis 09-06-06, 10:59 PM	Saiyan Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger) Racial HD 3d8 Base Attack +3 Fort +3 Ref +3 Will +1 Skill Points (2+Int) x (HD+3) Class Skills Climb, Jump, Listen, Spot, Swim & Survival Speed 30' Str +4 Dex +2 Con +4 Int -2 Wis +0 Cha +0 Natural Armor +1 Special Abilities Low light Vision Alternate Form* A Saiyan that still has a tail assumes this form whenever it looks at the full moon. This is an involuntary change Will Save DC 30 to resist. It lasts until the moon sets the Saiyan is rendered unconcious or its tail is removed. Alternate Form Gargantuan Monstous Humanoid (Shapechanger) Base Attack -1 Speed 40' Str +30 Dex -2 Con +12 Int Changes to 3 Wis +0 Cha +0 Natural Armor +10 AC -4 (size) Slam Attack 2d6 Bite 2d8 Breath Blast (Su) Magic Energy 120' line dealing 1d6 per HD Favored Class Fighter Advancement By Class Level Adjustment +0? (Feature Points Crew HELP!)
Keenath 09-07-06, 11:35 AM	Saiyan Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Shapechanger) Level Adjustment +0? (Feature Points Crew HELP!) I'd give it LA +0 without tail, or +4 with tail. But I really think the tailed Saiyan is going to be disruptive at best and broken at worst. The transformation could be a major benefit or a major penalty, depending on how the players use it. For that matter, a smart group might take advantage of the low will save to Dominate the monster after transformation and use him as a weapon, thus negating the entire penalty of the transformation. A *really* smart group will have the character purposely fail his save against Dominate Monster before transformation so that he'll already be leashed when he goes monstrous.
Atirakis 09-07-06, 01:43 PM	I agree that the Saiyan with tail is broken, that isnt something I intend to allow but I had to have a write up for it.
Delbert_Less 09-07-06, 02:03 PM	Here's another take on orcs - the civilized orcs. Any suggestions would be welcomed, as well as the FP analyze... In fact I'd like to make these orcs more universal, so any ideas are paid for. :-D ORCS • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence. Orcs are strong and tough, but often ignore the education. Centuries in civilization adapted orcs socially, but made them somewhat weaker than their wild cousins. • Medium: As Medium creatures, orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. • Orc base land speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision: Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and orcs can function just fine with no light at all. • Weapon familiarity: Orcs may treat orcish double-axe as if it were a martial, rather than exotic weapon. • +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Orcs often serve as brutes or mercenaries and are known for their pitiless on the battlefield and beyond. They are looked upon with a worry by others. • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional) and Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gnome + number of regional languages. Orcs never liked the education much and learn languages only for only particular purpose. • Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass orc ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he or she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing.
DarknessEternal 09-07-06, 05:40 PM	This system is fundamentally flawed. Humans rate us sub-balanced at LA +0. Considering Humans are the single most powerful race in the game at said LA, that's a pretty large shortcoming.
Keenath 09-07-06, 05:56 PM	This system is fundamentally flawed. Humans rate us sub-balanced at LA +0. Considering Humans are the single most powerful race in the game at said LA, that's a pretty large shortcoming. Actually, Dwarves are better than humans in a lot of cases. Still. I think he's underestimating the value of "pick a feat" as opposed to "take this feat". And note that what's on page 1 is not really current anymore.
Anauroch 09-07-06, 06:09 PM	This system is fundamentally flawed. Humans rate us sub-balanced at LA +0. Considering Humans are the single most powerful race in the game at said LA, that's a pretty large shortcoming. Oh, I see... someone has really looked into the matter... Sorry, Yaba. Your system is fundamentally flawed, you see? *points at the above quote* How could you miss that humans are the single most powerful race of the game?!?!? Ahem... sorry... it's late, I had an exhausting day and needed to have some fun! :P I think there will never be a perfect system. Yaba's is the best I've seen so far. Comparing one LA +0 race with another is not really the main point... the main point is to classify new races, ie help create new ones and rating them according to LA.
Grey_Mage 09-07-06, 07:59 PM	This system is fundamentally flawed. Humans rate us sub-balanced at LA +0. Considering Humans are the single most powerful race in the game at said LA, that's a pretty large shortcoming. I was always under the impression that humans were of medium or "average" power compared to the other races. *shrugs*. The high birth rate of humans being why they are the most powerful race, culturally if thats what your saying. If your saying that humans are mechanicly the most powerful- the thats merely a matter of opinion, your personal choice as it were.
Kadasbrass 09-07-06, 08:20 PM	I've considered humans a good solid race, but far from the best. All they really get is a bonus feat and extra skill points (which doesn't amount to much untill after level 6).
Donald_Cannith 09-07-06, 08:37 PM	I really like the system yes it has small flaws but those places where it falls short is worth ll the things it does make sense of I am lookin at the half-orcs and i thin k they definitely need fixing so here i go attempting to do can someone please tell me if these looks correct or w/e HALF-ORCS( and for my flavor points lets call it the eberron half-orc) • +2 Strength,+2 Wisdom –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. [ 2 FP] A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] - Weapon familiarity: orcs treat the orc double axe as martial weapon [0.5 FP] - +2 on all Will and fortitude saves half-orcs are extraordinarily resilient and extraordinarily stubborn [ 8 FP i think] • Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. [0 FP] giving us 13.5 Fp and makingthem slightly overpowered but ihonestly think it fits especially i tihnk it makes eberrons vision of the orc more accurate. although without the +2 to wisdom its 9.5 which makes them finally a more balanced and not underpowered race tell me what youthink
Viper2 09-07-06, 09:25 PM	I really like the system yes it has small flaws but those places where it falls short is worth ll the things it does make sense of I am lookin at the half-orcs and i thin k they definitely need fixing so here i go attempting to do can someone please tell me if these looks correct or w/e HALF-ORCS( and for my flavor points lets call it the eberron half-orc) • +2 Strength,+2 Wisdom –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. [ 2 FP] A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] - Weapon familiarity: orcs treat the orc double axe as martial weapon [0.5 FP] - +2 on all Will and fortitude saves half-orcs are extraordinarily resilient and extraordinarily stubborn [ 8 FP i think] • Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. [0 FP] giving us 13.5 Fp and makingthem slightly overpowered but ihonestly think it fits especially i tihnk it makes eberrons vision of the orc more accurate. although without the +2 to wisdom its 9.5 which makes them finally a more balanced and not underpowered race tell me what youthink Not that I doubt Yaba's system, but +2 to two saves is really busted on LA +0 when you're ahead on stats as it is (at least my WotC standards)
Grey_Mage 09-08-06, 12:38 AM	I really like the system yes it has small flaws but those places where it falls short is worth ll the things it does make sense of I am lookin at the half-orcs and i thin k they definitely need fixing so here i go attempting to do can someone please tell me if these looks correct or w/e HALF-ORCS( and for my flavor points lets call it the eberron half-orc) • +2 Strength,+2 Wisdom –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma. [ 2 FP] A half-orc’s starting Intelligence score is always at least 3. If this adjustment would lower the character’s score to 1 or 2, his score is nevertheless 3. • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] - Weapon familiarity: orcs treat the orc double axe as martial weapon [0.5 FP] - +2 on all Will and fortitude saves half-orcs are extraordinarily resilient and extraordinarily stubborn [ 8 FP i think] • Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Barbarian. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. [0 FP] giving us 13.5 Fp and makingthem slightly overpowered but ihonestly think it fits especially i tihnk it makes eberrons vision of the orc more accurate. although without the +2 to wisdom its 9.5 which makes them finally a more balanced and not underpowered race tell me what youthink Drop the wisdom bonus AND the charisma penalty, should put them right at balanced really... eberron orcs arent particularly stupid, nor are they particularly wise- the large number of druids seems more cultural than anything. Also... why do you give themthe +2 universal saves there? especiall on will saves? that doesnt make much sense to me....
DarknessEternal 09-08-06, 03:10 AM	If your saying that humans are mechanicly the most powerful- the thats merely a matter of opinion, your personal choice as it were. If race balance is a matter of opinion, then what is the purpose of this endeavor?
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-08-06, 03:34 AM	If race balance is a matter of opinion, then what is the purpose of this endeavor? Grey_Mage was basically saying you're wrong and being delicate about it. Race balance isn't a matter of opinion, however, humans aren't objectively the most powerful ECL=CL race by a long shot (they are extremely versatile though, grant that). If you want to believe humans are the most powerful, you know, have fun in your little world but it's not the same one the rest of us play in, at least as far as mechanics go. It's sort of like me saying goblins are the most powerful humanoid race. Maybe, as a whole, they have the potential to be - their strengths are good and their breeding cycle is fast, why they don't take over the world is inexplicable (from an in-game standpoint anyway, looking at it OOC it's obvious many people wouldn't like a goblin-dominant campaign setting). Objectively, mechanically, an individual goblin is not the most powerful ECL=CL race available. While 10,000 goblins should easily be able to overrun a 3,000 humans city in a night-time blitz in a campaign setting, and my opinion due to such things is that they are extremely powerful, objectively they're not the most powerful humanoid for their ECL.
Grey_Mage 09-08-06, 04:00 AM	*nods* Mechanicly speaking Humans are not the most powerful race, not by a long shot. I can see the argument, as they are indeed a good race, and flexable as all get out- but there is only so much you can do with that feat, and in the end a single skill point a level only adds up to so much at the end of the day. You are entitled to your opinion but I cannot find myself sharing it. I think they may be slightly under rated in yabas system, but not by much. This is of course, merely my opinion, and *whatevers holy* knows that Im not always right.
Delbert_Less 09-08-06, 11:06 AM	Here's another take on orcs - the civilized orcs. Any suggestions would be welcomed, as well as the FP analyze... In fact I'd like to make these orcs more universal, so any ideas are paid for. :-D ORCS • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence. Orcs are strong and tough, but often ignore the education. Centuries in civilization adapted orcs socially, but made them somewhat weaker than their wild cousins. • Medium: As Medium creatures, orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. • Orc base land speed is 30 feet. • Darkvision: Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and orcs can function just fine with no light at all. • Weapon familiarity: Orcs may treat orcish double-axe as if it were a martial, rather than exotic weapon. • +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Orcs often serve as brutes or mercenaries and are known for their pitiless on the battlefield and beyond. They are looked upon with a worry by others. • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional) and Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gnome + number of regional languages. Orcs never liked the education much and learn languages only for only particular purpose. • Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass orc ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he or she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. I hate to ask again, but there's no reply on this yet.
Keenath 09-08-06, 11:59 AM	I hate to ask again, but there's no reply on this yet. Why not download the document and work it out? The Civilized Orc you propose clocks in at 9.5, which is slightly on the weak side, but not badly.
Keenath 09-08-06, 12:02 PM	*nods* Mechanicly speaking Humans are not the most powerful race, not by a long shot. I can see the argument, as they are indeed a good race, and flexable as all get out- but there is only so much you can do with that featExactly correct. A human is better at all classes than any other race, but weaker any GIVEN class. In other words: A dwarf is a better fighter than a human, but a dwarf is a lousy sorcerer. A human makes a worse sorcerer than a gnome, but a gnome is a lousy barbarian. And so on. Humans aren't first-class at anything, but they're a close second in EVERYTHING. The bonus feat makes them popular for "builds", because it means you can usually get your prereqs together three levels earlier.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-08-06, 12:31 PM	Here's another take on orcs - the civilized orcs. Any suggestions would be welcomed, as well as the FP analyze... In fact I'd like to make these orcs more universal, so any ideas are paid for. :-D My understanding of the system may be outdated, but I'll give it a shot. ORCS • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence. Orcs are strong and tough, but often ignore the education. Centuries in civilization adapted orcs socially, but made them somewhat weaker than their wild cousins. 4 + 4 -3 = 5 FP • Medium: As Medium creatures, orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to size. 0 FP • Orc base land speed is 30 feet. 0 FP • Darkvision: Orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and orcs can function just fine with no light at all. 2 FP • Weapon familiarity: Orcs may treat orcish double-axe as if it were a martial, rather than exotic weapon. 0.5 FP • +2 racial bonus on Intimidate checks. Orcs often serve as brutes or mercenaries and are known for their pitiless on the battlefield and beyond. They are looked upon with a worry by others. 1 FP • Automatic Languages: Common (Regional) and Orc. Bonus Languages: Dwarven, Gnome + number of regional languages. Orcs never liked the education much and learn languages only for only particular purpose. 0 FP • Favored Class: Fighter. A multiclass orc ’s fighter class does not count when determining whether he or she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. 0 FP Total: 8.5 FP - LA +0 underpowered That darkvision figure looks odd... either the value has come down in the PDF release, or I've applied it incorrectly. Assuming I do have the values right, if you want to bring them up into the balanced range, I suggest adding a second weapon familiarity (orc shot-put, perhaps?) for another .5 FP, and bringing their Intimidate bonus up to +4 for another 1 FP, making a total of 10 FP, LA +0 balanced.
HomerJaySimpson13 09-08-06, 12:58 PM	anyone else's PDF not have a print function?:confused: :confused:
Keenath 09-08-06, 03:57 PM	That darkvision figure looks odd... either the value has come down in the PDF release, or I've applied it incorrectly.Yeah, I'm not sure how to deal with that chart. I assumed that you're supposed to use the 3-point line, which has a "feature interval bonus" of 1 and "Incriment" of 1. I have no idea what those values mean or how they affect anything, though. Well, I lie... I have a suspicion that the "interval bonus" means the cost for increasing the power's range by the listed amount, and Incriment just shows how much it has increased from the previous step. For example, if I'm reading it right, 5 pts buys you 5-ft blindsight, 9 pts buys 10-ft blindsight, and so on down the table. 37 points buys you 50' blindsight, and at that range each additional five feet is worth very little in points. The low-light vision column, then, might be indicating multiples of normal sight range -- 1 FP is "see twice as far", 2 is "see three times as far", and so on. In that case, if this is all correct, the standard 60' darkvision would be 2 pts, and 3 pts would be 120' darkvision, but that seems weird and overpowered for the cost, so I may not be getting this right at all.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-08-06, 04:03 PM	Well, if it's worth 3 or even 4, he should still end up in the balanced range after a few modifications, anywhere from 10-14 is fine for ECl=CL.
Donald_Cannith 09-08-06, 05:56 PM	Drop the wisdom bonus AND the charisma penalty, should put them right at balanced really... eberron orcs arent particularly stupid, nor are they particularly wise- the large number of druids seems more cultural than anything. Also... why do you give themthe +2 universal saves there? especiall on will saves? that doesnt make much sense to me.... upon further review i will change tthat i gave them that basically as an illustration of just how many FP they still had available to work with. I am going to play around with some things to make it improved. HALF-ORCS( and for my flavor points lets call it the eberron half-orc) • +2 Strength, –2 Charisma. [4-3 = 1 FP] • Medium: As Medium creatures, half-orcs have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Half-orc base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] • Darkvision: Half-orcs (and orcs) can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and half-orcs can function just fine with no light at all. [3 FP] - Weapon familiarity: orcs treat the orc double axe as martial weapon [0.5 FP] - +2 on all saves against poison and diseas resilient and hardy [ 2 FP] - Endurance as the feat as a bonus feat further illustrating thhier hardiness [3 FP] - + 2 to knowledge (nature) checks [ 2 FP] • Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc. [0 FP] • Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, and Abyssal. [0 FP] • Favored Class: Druid. A multiclass half-orc’s barbarian class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty. [0 FP] making a total of 12.5 FP and a little more balanced looking i think. i was using the PDF for giving endurans as a bonus feat from what i understood it waso nly three points but i could be wrong
Grey_Mage 09-08-06, 06:03 PM	Id say that looks pretty good. Not sure about favored class druid, as personally Id go with ranger, but its close enough to just be a personal taste issue. Consider this snagged.
celtic_knot_phoenix 09-08-06, 08:04 PM	I think this system despite the descrepencies within LAs (such DarknessEnternal said of humans) If the races is in the middle area of an LA though it might not be completely correct as to its inner LA situation it should get the right LA. Also the other side is when a system is made such as this it is for analysing something built or helping to build. NOT to built around so that it misrepresents a races strength. The only weakness I see right off is that depending upon the roleplaying intensity of the group their may be differences in non-mechanical portions of races. looking foreward to the anotated version -cheers
Keenath 09-08-06, 09:02 PM	I've been messing with it a bit, and I'm certain now that the human extra skill point is worth 4 points. By Yaba's system, a feature you gain at a later level is worth 2/3 the FP per two levels of delay. Thus a four level delay (that is, gaining it at 5th level) decreases the cost by 4/9, and so on. A human gains a skill point at each level, which can be calculated as a limit series. The marginal cost of each additional skill point approaches zero as the level approaches infinity, so the value of the ability (the sum of those marginal costs) approaches 2.4 FP. The sum of values from 1-20 is not significantly different (2.353 FP). At first level you get 4 points instead of 1, so the additional three points at 1st level cost an extra 1.5 FP. Thus, the human bonus skill point is worth 2.4+1.5, which is 3.9, rounding up to an even 4 FP. Using that pricing, this is the half-orc I wrote up several months ago: Half-Orc +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma (-2 FP) +1 Skill Point per level, 4 at 1st level (4 FP) +2 on Fortitude saves vs Massive Damage, Coup de Grace, and pain effects (such as Symbol of Pain, Pain Touch, or Recall Agony). (1 FP) Endurance as a bonus feat (3 FP) Darkvision 60 ft. (2 FP) Weapon Familiarity: Orc Double Axe (.5 FP) Orc blood (0 FP) Total: 8.5 FP, +0 Underpowered It's a little on the low side yet, but I think it's still a decent playable race. The skill point bonus largely offsets the Int penalty, with the flavor text of being less able at intellectual persuits, but good with their hands. Edit: Heck, while I'm at it, here's the Half-Elf I wrote at the same time. Half-Elf Immunity to sleep effects. (3 FP) +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects. (1 FP) Low-Light Vision. (1 FP) Pick any +2/+2 skill feat as a racial bonus feat. (Athletic, Sneaky, etc.) (3 FP) +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. (1.5 FP) Elven Blood. (0 FP) Favored Class: Any. (0.5 FP) Total: 10 FP, +0 Balanced The only real change is that I took away the +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Info and gave them their pick of skill feats. It suggests that they are good at skills, like a human, but not as flexible -- still, more flexible than the Half-Elf as written!
Delbert_Less 09-09-06, 04:40 AM	Why not download the document and work it out? The Civilized Orc you propose clocks in at 9.5, which is slightly on the weak side, but not badly. I'm sorry, but I've missed the Yaba's post with the link to PDF. My understanding of the system may be outdated, but I'll give it a shot. Total: 8.5 FP - LA +0 underpowered That darkvision figure looks odd... either the value has come down in the PDF release, or I've applied it incorrectly. Assuming I do have the values right, if you want to bring them up into the balanced range, I suggest adding a second weapon familiarity (orc shot-put, perhaps?) for another .5 FP, and bringing their Intimidate bonus up to +4 for another 1 FP, making a total of 10 FP, LA +0 balanced. Thank you!
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-09-06, 07:07 AM	I'm sorry, but I've missed the Yaba's post with the link to PDF. I've edited the very first post in this thread to quote YabaTheWhat's post that includes the link to download the PDF. At the moment it's mostly out-of-context raw data, but it's something to start with until Yaba has the time to make a more complete version to work with.
Teydyn 09-09-06, 09:32 AM	I'm certain now that the human extra skill point is worth 4 points. Thus, the human bonus skill point is worth 2.4+1.5, which is 3.9, rounding up to an even 4 FP. An Intelligence Bonus +2 is worth 4 FP too, and it does more for some, maybe the extra skill points for humans should be 3 fp?
SeptimusMagistos 09-09-06, 11:01 AM	Aw, why didn't anyone answer me?
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-09-06, 11:04 AM	Aw, why didn't anyone answer me? I think the important bits of your post drowned in the fluff (good for play, useless for mechanical evaluation). Try posting the bare crunch again without the novel of nonmechanical details.
SeptimusMagistos 09-09-06, 12:19 PM	I think the important bits of your post drowned in the fluff (good for play, useless for mechanical evaluation). Try posting the bare crunch again without the novel of nonmechanical details. OK. Kitini (The Lost Ones) Kitini Racial Traits * +2 Dex, -2 Str. Kitini are agile but not very strong. * Small. * Kitini base land speed is 30 feet. * Never Aging. Kitini never age. They do not die of old age and do not go through age cathegories. * Automatic Languages Common. * Favored Class Fighter, Bard, Rogue. A multiclass Kitini's fighter bard or rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. However, if he has more than one of these classes, only the highest doesn't count. * Level Adjustment +0 Kitini racial feats: Birthright feats(Can only be taken at 1st level) Liberty's Child Your tribe was ruled by a democracy and it left you used to freedom. This feat provides the character with a +4 bonus to spells seeking to control them. True Kitini You were born as a match between 2 pureblood Kitini. This feat increases the character's Charisma by 2 but drops his wisdom by an equal amount. In addition, a character with this feat gains +2 to Knowledge(nature) checks. Newly lost You were brought into the isles of Kirini as a child and subjected to the rituals. This feat negates the Kirini racial score adjustments. It also gives a character with it favored class(any). Following the Leader You were born in a tribe led by a strong figure. A character with this feat gains +1 to attack and damage if the leader of the party he's in is alive. If the character is the leader of the party, this feat is treated as Born Leader instead. Born leader You were born to be a leader of your tribe. As long as you're in the lead, you're the best you can be. A character with this feat gains+1 to attack and damage if he's the leader of the party he's in. If he isn't this feat is treated as Following the Leader instead. Other Feats Beastslayer You have battled savaged beasts of the Kitini Isles all your life and have grown good at it. You get +2 to hit and damage vs. animals.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-09-06, 12:36 PM	* +2 Dex, -2 Str. Kitini are agile but not very strong. 4-3=1 FP * Small.0 FP * Kitini base land speed is 30 feet.6 FP * Never Aging. Kitini never age. They do not die of old age and do not go through age cathegories.0 FP * Automatic Languages Common. * Favored Class Fighter, Bard, Rogue. A multiclass Kitini's fighter bard or rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. However, if he has more than one of these classes, only the highest doesn't count.0? FP Total: 7 FP, LA +0 underpowered Never Aging isn't really a valuable ability as far as game balance is concerned, most games don't run that long, and not going through age categories prevents gaining caster benefits starting off Venerable, or using the very few aging attacks in the game to do the same thing. The favored class thing is hard to quantify... the mutually exclusive nature of them basically means you've got one or the other, not both (though they may switch during the course of the character's career), and you've only got two choices to work with. Even the human and half-elf's total favored class flexibility is only worth .5 FP, this version seems like it'd be worth maybe .1 at most and it might as well just round off. The racial feat options you gave them are odd, and having exclusive access to them probably should raise FP value significantly even if it does take feat slots over multiple levels to get them, but I'm not going to tackle the job of working out what access to them is worth.
MeklorIlavator 09-09-06, 12:50 PM	Is it all right to post my custom race for evaluation? I really need the imput.
SeptimusMagistos 09-09-06, 12:50 PM	Total: 7 FP, LA +0 underpowered Never Aging isn't really a valuable ability as far as game balance is concerned, most games don't run that long, and not going through age categories prevents gaining caster benefits starting off Venerable, or using the very few aging attacks in the game to do the same thing. The favored class thing is hard to quantify... the mutually exclusive nature of them basically means you've got one or the other, not both (though they may switch during the course of the character's career), and you've only got two choices to work with. Even the human and half-elf's total favored class flexibility is only worth .5 FP, this version seems like it'd be worth maybe .1 at most and it might as well just round off. The racial feat options you gave them are odd, and having exclusive access to them probably should raise FP value significantly even if it does take feat slots over multiple levels to get them, but I'm not going to tackle the job of working out what access to them is worth. Thanks anyway.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-09-06, 01:22 PM	Is it all right to post my custom race for evaluation? I really need the imput. You can, though it'll need to wait for till someone else comes along to count it up... it's too late for me to be number-crunching, I'd be asleep if I had any sense.
Keenath 09-09-06, 02:34 PM	An Intelligence Bonus +2 is worth 4 FP too, and it does more for some, maybe the extra skill points for humans should be 3 fp? That's a good point. Worse, I went back and examined the calculation I'd done yesterday -- I was wrong a bit. The limit is actually around 2.73, which gives a total ability cost around 4.23. The system only produces rough estimates in any case, so it may be worth doing to lower the cost to 3.5 or 3 FP; the marginal value of the skill points above 6th or 7th level is very small anyway; ignoring those does produce a value closer to 3.5. On a different subject: What do you suppose a creature with four arms would cost? Use the Thri-kreen as a base if you need one, but ignore all those natural weapons. What about a grapple bonus for having all those arms? (Edit: Never mind, I see that earlier Yaba listed +4 to a given combat technique, such as grapple or trip, as a 1 FP benefit.) Also, what do you think would be the cost for an ability that gives a +1 caster level for spells of a particular descriptor, like Fire or Good?
MeklorIlavator 09-09-06, 04:40 PM	Kaslakian Medium Humanoid (shapeshifter) Ability mods: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2Wis, -2 STR Special abilities: • Low light vision- see twice as far as normal in low light conditions. • Spell warped- Kaslakian receive a +1 bonus against mind effecting illusion due to their inner conflict. Kaslakian also receive a -1 penalty against the transmutation school because of the way they have been warped by it. • Weapon proficiency- Kaslakian chose 1 proficiency from the following list: Rapier Longbow Shortbow Chainblade (see bottom of post) • Kaslakian have a -10 penalty on diplomacy and bluff checks applied to every check but ones applying solely to other Kaslakian or Metallic dragons. • Vampiric regeneration- when dealing slashing or piercing damage with natural weapons attacks, Kaslakian receive a healing factor equal to the damage dealt. This ability only works against creatures that have discernible bodily fluids like blood. They gain back the damage as hit points at the start of their next turn, capping out at maximum damage. • Shapechange, Minor: a Kaslakian can, as a standard action, change into a hybrid form. It gains two claw attacks (1d6 each, slashing) and a bite attack (1d6, piercing). Their spell warped bonus and penalty increase each by 1 point. They gain a + 2 bonus to strength and dexterity, and a – 2 penalty to Charisma and Intelligence. They gain Darkvision to 30 ft. They can remain in this form for five minutes. (1/day per five level max at 3/day ) • Shapechange, Greater: a Kaslakian can as a standard action, change into a more powerful hybrid form. It gains two claw attacks (1d8 each, slashing) and one bite attack (1d8, piercing). Spell warped traits increases by two points. It gains + 4 to strength and Dexterity, + 2 to Con, -4 to Charisma and Intelligence. They gain Darkvision to 60 feet. Their size increases to large, with all the side effect that this entails (destroyed armor, bonuses and penalties). They gain a fly speed of 60feet, average maneuverability. Their land speed increases by one step. They gain a +2 to listen and spot checks. They can stay in this form for 1 round per hit die. After this period ends they are fatigued for a number of minutes equal to 5-1/4 con modifier. Bonuses for This ability replace those of the minor shapechange.(1/per day at 12 hit die ) • Shapechange, Complete: If a Kaslakian would be reduced to 0 or less hit points or would be killed by massive damage, this ability activates as a free action (note, this ability does not activate if the body is destroyed as the disintegrate spell). The subconscious of the Kaslakian takes complete control of the body. This counts as if a new combatant entered combat, so re-roll initiative, using the new Ability stats. It gains two claw attacks (1d10 each, slashing) and a bite attack (1d10, piercing). It gains temporary hit points equal to ½ its maximum+ 4*con modifier. Its spell warped bonus is now 5. It gains Darkvision 60 feet. It gains a flight speed of 80(good) and land speed increases one increment. It has +2 to any spot, listen, tumble, or balance checks it makes. It gains + 6 to Str and Dex, + 4 to Con, and – 6 to Wis and Cha. Its Intelligence score is equal to 3. It is treated as in a Berserker Fury for all actions. It only uses its Natural weapons. It gains + 3 to will save, + 3 to Fort saves, and -6 to Reflex saves. It is treated as having improved initiative and improved grapple. Its healing factor is now at I.5 (heals I.5 health for every 1 point of damage) Its size changes to large. It has a tunnel vision, where it will attack1 person until it is dead/ unable to detect it. After it dispatches a foe, roll a D8 as you would for splash weapons to determine its new target. Roll until a target is within 60 feet. If it is an ally, it gets a will save, DC 30, using the unaltered stats of the player. If it succeeds, the rage immediately ends. The rage last for 3d6+con modifier rounds. After this term ends, the Kaslakian immediately falls unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds, After which he is Fatigued until he gets eight hours of sleep, no magical device affects this time, until which he cannot use any shapechange abilities. At the end of this rage, the Kaslakian loses all remaining temporary hit points. (1/week at fifth level)These abilities replace other previous ones gained from the shapechange feat. LA:??? Weapon Chain blade (exotic) - light 1d8 damage x2crits reach A Chain blade can be used like a whip for trip attacks. Slashing.It can be wielded against adjacent foes.
Keenath 09-09-06, 07:39 PM	This is in reference to the FP cost for extra limbs. The document lists the cost as, "3 FP (held item slot) + 9 FP (weapon slot if applicable) + 6 FP (shield slot if appplicable)..." and so on. I argue that the Shield slot cost doesn't make sense, and the other extra-limb costs seem bizarrely large. Since when? it's completely plausable you can use two shields at a time, you just couldn't use another weapon with those two shields, unless they were bucklers. The second one provides no benefit, because Shield bonuses don't stack. Weilding two shields is not an "additional sheild slot"; it's putting a shield in a weapon slot. And that's all it's good for -- shield bashing, using it as a weapon. In fact, the concept of a "shield slot" is stupid. Does a human have two shield slots? Absolutely not! He has two hands, and you can use a weapon or a shield (or both with a buckler) in any given hand. You can use two hands on one weapon if you want to, but that's just spending both weapon slots on the same weapon. I'm saying the same is true of a four-armed creature -- yes, you COULD have him hold four shields, but he's not getting any benefit from three of them, so how can you say he has additional shield slots? Additional Shield Slot would only apply if a multilimbed creature had some special ability to gain full benefit from a shield in each limb.
Keenath 09-09-06, 07:42 PM	I wanted to work out the Thri-Kreen, as it's the only PC race I know of that has multi-limbs. THRI-KREEN +2 STR, +4 DEX, -2 INT, +2 WIS, -4 CHA 12 FP (Note that this cost is due to paying a premium for your highest ability score adjustment, if it's more than +2) Monstrous Humanoid 3 FP Medium Base Speed 40 ft. 6 FP Darkvision 60 ft. 2 FP Immune to sleep 3 FP Natural Armor +3 18 FP Four arms 24 FP (The extra arms can hold weapons, but do not grant any extra actions or additional spellcasting ability, and it can still benefit from only 1 shield at a time, as discussed above.) Natural weapons (4 claws+bite) 10 FP (The claws replace held weapons, so they're worth only 1 FP each. I'd think there would be a 1- or 2-point break for secondary natural weapons, but apparently not.) Poison: 1/day Bite delivers poison 1d6 Dex/Paralysis, DC 11+Con 4 FP Note: See below for explanation of this cost. Leap: +30 on Jump checks 15 FP Weapon Familiarity (2 weapons) 1 FP Naturally Psionic 3 FP Note: See below for discussion. Psi-like abilities: 3/day chameleon (1st; 12 FP), know direction and location (1st; 12 FP); 1/day greater concealing amorpha (3rd; 10 FP), metaphysical claw (1st; 4 FP); total cost 38 FP Racial Hit Dice: 2 HD Monstrous Humanoid -- 2d8 HP (8 FP); +2 BAB (18 FP); 2 good saves (6 FP); 5x(2+int) skill points (5 FP); total cost 37 FP Starting feat 0 FP Everyone gets a feat with their first HD, monster HD or not. +4 racial bonus to Hide in deserts 1 FP Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat 4 FP LA +2 Total: 181 FP As an ECL 4 creature (2 HD and LA +2), the suggested range is 108 to 123. This total would actually place Thri-kreen comfortably in the middle of the CL+6 zone, which would mean a Level Adjustment of +4 rather than +2. If anyone thinks the costs here are massively off, let me know; I may have been off by 1 or 2 points here and there, but I doubt that's of major importance -- not enough to shift it down by 2 entire categories! Either the ThriKreen is massively overpowered for its level, or the FP system has a major glitch. My suspicion is a mix of both. I think that the extra arms cost is far in excess of what it should be, mainly because the extra limbs can only be off-hand attacks. The TK must make a full attack to gain any advantage over a two-armed creature, and the extra two attacks are both at the off-hand penalty. Clearly, multiattack is a must-have for warrior TKs, but then we're discussing taking additional feats. I would tend to apply a cost of 1 FP for non-weapon-using limbs, like a prehensile tail (which may still have a natural attack, costed seperately!), and 3 FP for a weapon-using limb such as an extra arm. 12 points for an extra d6 damage (which is all you'll get unless you're going to take the massive TWF penalties), and that only during a full attack, is ridiculous. I also feel the Natural Armor costs are over the top; 6 FP per point seems pretty excessive, but I don't know what the logic behind that is, so I won't say too much about it. On the flipside, I've thought for a while that TK look more like an LA +3 race than +2, but didn't want to argue too loudly. In the MMII (a 3.0 product), the TK were CL+5 (2 HD and LA +3) if they had psi-powers, or CL+3 (That is, LA +1) if they did not. Note that their psi-powers were somewhat more important in the days of psionic combat modes, and that some of their powers were at-will instead of 3/day. On the cost of Poison: This is a tough one. The "Ability Damage" costs in the FP document are for at-will poison, like a snake. This is more like a 1/day spell-like ability. Comparing to the Poison spell: Poison is 3rd level, touch, deals 1d10 Con/1d10 Con, and provokes an AOO to cast (but not to attack with). By comparison, this ability deals less damage primary, and no secondary (but with a removal effect) and against a non-fatal ability score; it requires a melee attack to deliver instead of a touch attack, but provokes no AOO (admittedly not an issue for most druids); and Poison adds half your caster level to the save DC, unlike this ability. I approximate that the cost of a Level 1 spell 1/day is a good match for this ability. On Naturally Psionic: This ability is identical to the Wild Talent feat, but provides only 1 power point instead of 2, so I reduced the cost by 1 FP. Being psionic is prerequisite to all Psionic feats, but you can also become psionic through a class feature, so I increased the cost by half the "prerequisite for 3 or more feats" value, bringing the total back up to 3.
MeklorIlavator 09-09-06, 07:48 PM	Are the HIt Die really worth it? I mean, most people consider that a bad thing, because it means lass overall levels.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-09-06, 07:58 PM	The second one provides no benefit, because Shield bonuses don't stack. Weilding two shields is not an "additional sheild slot"; it's putting a shield in a weapon slot. And that's all it's good for -- shield bashing, using it as a weapon. This isn't entirely true. Two shield bonuses won't stack for AC purposes... but it's entirely possible (and very expensive) to have a +5 ghost-touch heavy shield of arrow deflection for the basic defensive benefits, and a +1 reflecting light shield of greater acid resistance, greater cold resistance, greater electricity resistance, greater fire resistance, and greater sonic resistance for protection from various magical assaults, and get the benefits of both. The AC benefit of the light shield would be useless, but you'd still get a hell of a lot of benefit out of it.
Keenath 09-10-06, 12:22 AM	This isn't entirely true. Two shield bonuses won't stack for AC purposes... but it's entirely possible (and very expensive)... For the record, the various resistances cost a flat amount and don't affect other enhancements -- so you could just as easily have put all those resistances on the ghost-touch, arrow deflecting primary shield, for not a copper more. The reflecting part does benefit from a seperate shield. However.... That's such a bizarre and arcane (not to mention expensive) benefit, it certainly can't be worth 3 FP per arm. I can't see as that would be worth ANYTHING from a race-building perspective, beyond the "holding a weapon" benefit that you already get from having bonus arms. You have to trade in a held weapon to use that benefit, after all.
Yuri_Zhivago 09-10-06, 09:51 AM	That's such a bizarre and arcane (not to mention expensive) benefit, it certainly can't be worth 3 FP per arm. I can't see as that would be worth ANYTHING from a race-building perspective, beyond the "holding a weapon" benefit that you already get from having bonus arms. You have to trade in a held weapon to use that benefit, after all. Well, as someone who is building a four-armed race myself (it really isn't as novel a concept as I thought it would be), I think I have a pretty good idea of what you get and what you lose from having more arms. Namely, of course, there is the weapon benefit, and "extra" arms replaces Two Weapon Fighting with Multi-Weapon fighting. More arms could also translate into a strength bonus (or not, on builder's preference), and always grant a bonus to Climb checks when using the second set. This list doesn't include little, obvious things: I see no reason to. If anyone has anything else to add, I'd love to hear it. Yuri
Keenath 09-10-06, 12:06 PM	Well, as someone who is building a four-armed race myself (it really isn't as novel a concept as I thought it would be)Yeah, I'm particularly interested because of a homebrew four-armed race I made a while back. It's mechanically based on the Thri-kreen, but modified to reflect the Orochi from the M:TG Kamigawa setting -- a race of four-armed snake people that live in the deep forests. The FP balance seems good, but that massive extra-arms cost is throwing it out of whack.
saidin0111 09-10-06, 12:32 PM	I'm not sure if I understand the Darkvision part of the tables, it ususally progresses in 30 ft. increments in the game, but it is tabled by 60 ft. increments, the FP costs for those increases seem to be a little small in my opinion, so I was wondering if just the 0 bonus was 60 ft. and further increases were by 30 ft. instead of 60 ft.
saidin0111 09-10-06, 02:41 PM	sorry, but I have one other question and that is if say I wanted to give a creature an SLA that has a min CL higher than its HD or ECL, is there some sort of FP cost for increased caster level that applies to this or do they need to be given an overall caster level increase or really are there any special rules that would apply?
Donald_Cannith 09-10-06, 04:18 PM	Kaslakian Medium Humanoid (shapeshifter) Ability mods: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2Wis, -2 STR(+8-6) 2 FP Special abilities: • Low light vision- see twice as far as normal in low light conditions.(1FP) • Spell warped- Kaslakian receive a +1 bonus against mind effecting illusion due to their inner conflict. Kaslakian also receive a -1 penalty against the transmutation school because of the way they have been warped by it.(1-1) 0 FP • Weapon proficiency- Kaslakian chose 1 proficiency from the following list: Rapier Longbow Shortbow Chainblade (see bottom of post)(1.5 FP) • Kaslakian have a -10 penalty on diplomacy and bluff checks applied to every check but ones applying solely to other Kaslakian or Metallic dragons.(-10 FP) • Vampiric regeneration- when dealing slashing or piercing damage with natural weapons attacks, Kaslakian receive a healing factor equal to the damage dealt. This ability only works against creatures that have discernible bodily fluids like blood. They gain back the damage as hit points at the start of their next turn, capping out at maximum damage.( Ihonestly dont know but it is alot in my opinon..im going with about 35 based on the fact that if used every turn it would be like fast healing 4(at least) but that its not used at all times)35FP • Shapechange, Minor: a Kaslakian can, as a standard action, change into a hybrid form. It gains two claw attacks (1d6 each, slashing) and a bite attack (1d6, piercing). Their spell warped bonus and penalty increase each by 1 point. They gain a + 2 bonus to strength and dexterity, and a – 2 penalty to Charisma and Intelligence. They gain Darkvision to 30 ft. They can remain in this form for five minutes. (1/day per five level max at 3/day )( 13FP) iconsiderthis a use of the polymorph spell on self but ita powerful form..claws are only supposed to deal 1d4) • Shapechange, Greater: a Kaslakian can as a standard action, change into a more powerful hybrid form. It gains two claw attacks (1d8 each, slashing) and one bite attack (1d8, piercing). Spell warped traits increases by two points. It gains + 4 to strength and Dexterity, + 2 to Con, -4 to Charisma and Intelligence. They gain Darkvision to 60 feet. Their size increases to large, with all the side effect that this entails (destroyed armor, bonuses and penalties). They gain a fly speed of 60feet, average maneuverability. Their land speed increases by one step. They gain a +2 to listen and spot checks. They can stay in this form for 1 round per hit die. After this period ends they are fatigued for a number of minutes equal to 5-1/4 con modifier. Bonuses for This ability replace those of the minor shapechange.(1/per day at 12 hit die )(this seems like an empowered version of the polymorph spell though id still lower the claw damagedown to 1d6 but it is delayed to 12th level so with the delay i give it 2 more FP)(2 FP) Shapechange, Complete: If a Kaslakian would be reduced to 0 or less hit points or would be killed by massive damage, this ability activates as a free action (note, this ability does not activate if the body is destroyed as the disintegrate spell). The subconscious of the Kaslakian takes complete control of the body. This counts as if a new combatant entered combat, so re-roll initiative, using the new Ability stats. It gains two claw attacks (1d10 each, slashing) and a bite attack (1d10, piercing). It gains temporary hit points equal to ½ its maximum+ 4*con modifier. Its spell warped bonus is now 5. It gains Darkvision 60 feet. It gains a flight speed of 80(good) and land speed increases one increment. It has +2 to any spot, listen, tumble, or balance checks it makes. It gains + 6 to Str and Dex, + 4 to Con, and – 6 to Wis and Cha. Its Intelligence score is equal to 3. It is treated as in a Berserker Fury for all actions. It only uses its Natural weapons. It gains + 3 to will save, + 3 to Fort saves, and -6 to Reflex saves. It is treated as having improved initiative and improved grapple. Its healing factor is now at I.5 (heals I.5 health for every 1 point of damage) Its size changes to large. It has a tunnel vision, where it will attack1 person until it is dead/ unable to detect it. After it dispatches a foe, roll a D8 as you would for splash weapons to determine its new target. Roll until a target is within 60 feet. If it is an ally, it gets a will save, DC 30, using the unaltered stats of the player. If it succeeds, the rage immediately ends. The rage last for 3d6+con modifier rounds. After this term ends, the Kaslakian immediately falls unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds, After which he is Fatigued until he gets eight hours of sleep, no magical device affects this time, until which he cannot use any shapechange abilities. At the end of this rage, the Kaslakian loses all remaining temporary hit points. (1/week at fifth level)These abilities replace other previous ones gained from the shapechange feat.(this is shapechange on crack i think so doing the mmat haccording to yabass im giving it 10 FP) ( however this whole set of abilities just scream lycanthrope so it should probably be worth a littlem orethan i have it at and i don think im right but here it goes) 53.5 LA: +2 Weapon Chain blade (exotic) - light 1d8 damage x2crits reach A Chain blade can be used like a whip for trip attacks. Slashing.It can be wielded against adjacent foes. Personally i dont liek the race it looks prettyy much inherently broken buti could bewrong maybe my LA calculation is wrong i wouldsure appreciate some help on this
MeklorIlavator 09-10-06, 06:00 PM	When you think about it, this is a time delayed lycanthrope. Also,the claws are powerful on the first stage transformation, I might tone those down(this is a work in progress). But wow, the higher level transformations don't appear to be worth much(that's surprising.)
saidin0111 09-10-06, 06:06 PM	I was wondering if someone would have a good idea for some SLA's for a 1HD LA +3 race that is descended from people that were possessed by evil creatures I need them to equal ~48FP to be on par with some other options that are available, though 1 or 2 FP either way won't be too damaging since they are currently right in the middle of balanced for LA +3
Keenath 09-10-06, 10:25 PM	I was wondering if someone would have a good idea for some SLA's for a 1HD LA +3 race that is descended from people that were possessed by evil creatures I need them to equal ~48FP to be on par with some other options that are available, though 1 or 2 FP either way won't be too damaging since they are currently right in the middle of balanced for LA +3 I dunno, maybe summons (evil only), Prot from Good, Unholy Blight, and stuff like that. Get on www.d20srd.com and use the Spell Filter to look at all the [evil] spells, that may give you a good starting place. Then add in a few more that seem appropriate -- darkness, fire, or other hellish themes.
Donald_Cannith 09-11-06, 06:36 PM	When you think about it, this is a time delayed lycanthrope. Also,the claws are powerful on the first stage transformation, I might tone those down(this is a work in progress). But wow, the higher level transformations don't appear to be worth much(that's surprising.) well you see that was with me treating it like a spell-like ability and usingthe delayed feature thingy built into the FP system. I think i may be wrong and it may be a special ability not too dissimilar from wild shape BUT there are no rules in there for giving super speecial class abilities to races.. i honestly wanted to make them LA +3 to match the lycanth bu the mathshowed me +2 so thats wha im going with utnil/unless someone corrects me
MaximumHavoc 09-12-06, 11:58 AM	To start off, give both orcs and half-orcs +2 constitution. That's another 4 FP each, bringing the half-orc to 5 FP and the full orc to 8 FP. (Light sensitivity is now worth -2 FP rather than the originally posted -1 FP.) Next, give them both +2 to intimidate for another 1 FP. Boost the full orc's darkvision to 120 ft for another 1 FP, and they're settled at 10 FP. The half orc, at this point, is at 6 FP. All his features reflect the orc parent, so we could pull something from his human side, but it would be better to make them unique. Give half-orcs a +2 morale bonus to saves vs fear, poison, and disease, for 1 FP each. As outcasts, it wouldn't hurt them to have a +2 to survival for another 1 FP. Now they're up to 10 FP, balanced. Not happy with one of the suggestions above? The feat Endurance is worth 3 FP as a bonus feat. (If I recall correctly, not enough feats depend on Endurance to make it the start of a feat chain.). In light of the fact that Dwarves have 14 FP, Elves 14 FP, and Gnomes 14 FP, I think that adding the Endurance feat to both the Orc and the Half-Orc is acceptable. I would even add weapon familiarity (orc double axe) to each of them for a grand total of 13.5 FP. On a separate topic, I like your idea of giving 120' darkvision to Orcs, in light of the fact that they suffer from light sensitivity. I would also do this for Kobolds, again because of their light sensitivity. Now, 60' darkvision would not be associated with light sensitivity (e.g., dwarves), but 120' darkvision would be associated with light sensitivity (e.g., duergar, drow). As far as SRD humanoids, only svirfneblin would not be consistent with this new norm, but then, a 1 HD race with 3 LA can go in really unorthodox directions in terms of race features. 120' Darkvision would help Kobolds with their ambushes.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-12-06, 12:48 PM	I haven't seen Yaba around in a while. Anyone know what's up with that (I'm guessing some sort of vacation or accident)? Anyways, could someone help me figure out the LA of bar-lguras? Bar-lgura characters possess the following racial traits. +12 Strength, +8 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +4 Wisdom, +2 Charisma. Medium size Space/Reach: 5 feet/5 feet. A bar-lgura’s base land speed is 40 feet. It also has a climb speed of 20 feet (+8 bonus on Climb checks. Take 10 even if threatened). Darkvision out to 60 feet. Racial Hit Dice: A bar-lgura begins with six levels of outsider, which provide 6d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +6, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +5, Ref +5, and Will +5. Racial Skills: A bar-lgura’s outsider levels give it skill points equal to 9 × (8 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Balance, Climb, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen,Move Silently, Spot, and Tumble. Bar-lguras have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a+10 racial bonus on Jump checks. Racial Feats: A bar-lgura’s outsider levels give it three feats. Weapon Proficiency: A bar-lgura is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and its natural attacks. +8 natural armor bonus. DR 5/Cold iron or good Spell Resistance equal to their racial HD +10 Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d6) and a bite (1d6). Special Attacks: Pounce, abduction, summon tanar’ri, spell-like abilities. Special Qualities: tanar’ri traits, telepathy 100 ft. Automatic Languages: Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic. Favored Class: Barbarian. Spell-like abilities (CL 6th): At will – darkness, cause fear (DC 12), dispel magic, greater teleport (DC 18), see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 16) 2/day – disguise self (DC 12), invisibility, major image (DC 14) Abduction (Su): Unlike most tanar’ri, a bar-lgura can bring up to one Large or two Medium or smaller with it each time it teleports. It can teleport unwilling targets as well, although an unwilling victim can attempt a DC 18 Will save to resist being transported. The save DC is Charisma-based. Summon Tanar’ri (Sp): Once per day, a bar-lgura can attempt to summon another bar-lgura with a 35% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell (CL 6th). Pounce: If a bar-lgura charges a foe, it can make a full attack. Tanar’ri traits: -Immunity to electricity and poison -Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10. -Summon (see entry) -Telepathy I houseruled the Barbarian as a favored class, but I could see it being Scout or Ranger.
Anauroch 09-12-06, 02:58 PM	@Thumb: Just a quick question - in what range do you expect the LA to be?!
Vestigial_Thumb 09-12-06, 03:30 PM	@Thumb: Just a quick question - in what range do you expect the LA to be?! Between +6 and +10
ArcanaMaster 09-13-06, 11:50 AM	What is the FP cost of the Create Spawn ability? I couldn't find it in the PDF. Please assist.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-13-06, 08:38 PM	Create Spawn is an extremely tough call, look at the true vampire as an example. That template could reasonably be called broken, it's not really playable as-is. As long as you don't run out of viable targets you can create an infinitely long spawn chain under your command, and that is huge. So they give it a giant LA, but it doesn't work. With that LA +8 the vampire isn't good enough to hold up in combat, as a spellcaster or as a skill monkey, but even with 8 missed levels, if the vampire persistently presses its spawn chain advantage it increases its power exponentially over time, that's too good. I think in the end, Create Spawn and similar abilities are going to have to be severely gimped, or automatically disqualify any race/template that has them from being a PC. -------------------- I've been thinking, what if the FP system broke creatures down into categories, with FP values based partly on whether or not an ability fits well with the creature's overall category? That might help to account for synergies, paying full price for things that help with your best role but less for those that don't contribute to it, and/or encourage moving away from it. Crude Sleep-Deprived Example Battler Abilities that improve attacks, health, or AC: Full Value (+Str, +Dex, +Con, Natural Armor, Dodge Bonuses, Size bonuses, fast healing, etc) Abilities that improve tactical mobility: Full Value (flight, increased land speed, ability to treat bad terrain as normal, etc) Abilities that improve skills that could see use in combat: 1/2 Value (Jump, Tumble, Balance, Spot, etc) Abilities that provide/improve magical talent: 1/2 Value (spell DC increases, extremely minor spell-like abilities, Spellcraft or Knowledge Arcana bonuses, etc) Abilities that improve skills that cannot be used in combat: 1/4 Value (Disable Device, Craft, Profession, Appraise, etc) Other: 3/4 Value (specialized vision, optional wate breathing, etc) I'm not suggesting that these values in particular are used, but I hope you see where I'm going with this. Natural armor in particular has been a big sticking point -- it is very, very good for a race that's likely to make use of it (especially something like a kobold, a high mobility evasive creature that can't take a hit, and that already has good AC from Dex and size and is likely to focus on it). But for creatures that won't really use AC much in the long run (like, say, a pixie... they aren't likely to be directly targetted with attacks, and if they are they're already doomed), it's not giving as great a contribution to the overall package as it might otherwise. Maybe working out some way to categorize a monster's optimum functional role, and then weighting abilities based on how they contribute to that role, would provide better results. I think role categories from the Monster Manual could be a good place to start. Battler (troll, bugbear, orc) Ambusher (choker, goblin, kobold) Magic User (Rakshasa, grey elf) Special Attacker (ghoul, medusa) Multiple Threat (succubus, aranea, pixie) And there should probably be one more category added. Universal (human, half-elf, merfolk) I think it could cut down on abilities being maybe overvalued because one or two races can do so terribly well with them, or undervalued because they're niche abilities.
Keenath 09-14-06, 01:21 AM	What is the FP cost of the Create Spawn ability? I couldn't find it in the PDF. Please assist. I concur with Shaggy -- Create Spawn is not appropriate for player races, and therefore has no listed FP cost.
saidin0111 09-14-06, 01:38 AM	I concur as well, there is a reason that it takes a feat just to get a cohort and some followers, so having the ability to create spawn is simply a breaking point in the hands of the PCs unless they are very, very strict with themselves about RPing it right, like taking into account the risks of raising suspicions and inevitably drawing crusading heroes before deciding to use it each time, and even then, it can still get out of hand, there are just certain abilities that were never meant for player consumption and have been pretty much relegated to non-playable or practically non-playable races
ArcanaMaster 09-14-06, 01:21 PM	What about creatures that create spawn of a different type that can't create spawn?
Kresalak 09-14-06, 03:26 PM	That only prevents an exponential growth of spawn; you can still make as many as you want. Now, a race with a limit on how many spawn they can control...
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-14-06, 04:40 PM	What about creatures that create spawn of a different type that can't create spawn? That only prevents an exponential growth of spawn; you can still make as many as you want. Now, a race with a limit on how many spawn they can control... That would be the sort of severe gimping I was referring to earlier. A limited amount of spawn that cannot, themselves, create spawn, should be alright for a PC, though it'd be pretty valuable. Why the avatar change, Kresalak? I wouldn't have recognized you if not for your name as the last poster listed for the thread.
Grey_Mage 09-14-06, 04:57 PM	Actually that kind of sounds worse than the Leadership Feat. Unless you found a way to make it scale with level? Then it would be again more powerful.... *shrugs* Wiser heads will find a way.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-14-06, 05:01 PM	Well, using the vampire as an example again, you could have a limit of something like no more than 2 HD of spawn for each 1 HD of your own. If the spawn can't make more spawn, you don't end up with some stupid huge army of spawn, but the ability does grow up with you.
Kresalak 09-14-06, 05:01 PM	Why the avatar change, Kresalak? I wouldn't have recognized you if not for your name as the last poster listed for the thread. I've actually been looking for the avatar I have now for a while, since I was bored of the old one.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-14-06, 05:30 PM	So anyways, I'm totally up the creek on the Bar-Lguras.
Gnomish Zombie 09-14-06, 06:30 PM	Am I correct in interpreting that with the level draining ability, with a DC 14, such as that of a wightwould have a cost of 112 FP? I find that a little over the top. The stated cost is DC * (nb of levels drained) * 8 In this case, 14 * 1 * 8 Am I misinterpreting the DC multiplier to the cost? As for darkvision, I do believe that it still costs 3. Yabba stated that some abilities would have a cost for "0-feet range" (or was it 5-feet range cost?), to account for bonuses that you gain just for having the ability regardless of range (not losing dex bonus to AC, etc.). That would be the first line of the darkvision table, and the second one would be for one range increment (1 * 60 feet = 60 feet)
Grey_Mage 09-15-06, 06:00 AM	THat does indeed seem maybe a bit excessive... try crunching the numbers with the save DC -10?
YabaTheWhat 09-15-06, 07:48 AM	Level drain is one of those abilities that could probably use tweaking. If it drained an actual level, rather than the moderate impact of imposing a negative level, it would certainly be worth that cost. As is, if we treat it as worth about half the listed value, it would be comparable with a typical ability-damage poison attack. I based the value on the two spells noted beside the entry, and the power of those spells relative to a typical level drain ability. Before adjusting the value of level drain, think about the impact of a typical level drain. ¤ Level drain attacks are often touch. ¤ The creature takes negatives to all three saves, as opposed to only one save from ability damage. ¤ The creature takes negatives to its attack rolls and skill checks. ¤ The creature takes minor physical damage, bypassing all DR, in addition to any damage from the attack itself (if applicable). It is also counted as losing the hit die, which may reduce the effectiveness of any special abilities the creature possesses. ¤ If the number of levels drained exceeds its total levels, it dies. Period. Only constitution damage has similar results. ¤ The results may become permanent. While this won't matter against a typical monster (because you plan to kill it anyway), recurring villains will find it a major hazard. Overall, draining one level is probably about equivalent to draining 2d6 points of constitution. And remember, the costs of level drain and ability drain are based on the monster's save DC, not a typical PC's save DC. The save DC for a PC may be up to 4 points higher, if the score used for that DC receives an unadjusted roll of 18.
Keenath 09-15-06, 05:45 PM	Overall, draining one level is probably about equivalent to draining 2d6 points of constitution. And remember, the costs of level drain and ability drain are based on the monster's save DC, not a typical PC's save DC. The save DC for a PC may be up to 4 points higher, if the score used for that DC receives an unadjusted roll of 18. Remember to include the fact that you gain 5 temporary HP per level drained, as per the Energy Drain special ability. Could you give an example on the DC thing? I'm not clear on how you would calculate costs for a poison or energy drain ability. The formula says "average save DC/4" -- is that average assuming you put a 10 in the relevant stat? In that case, a +2 CON race would have an average poison DC of 10+(racial HD/2)+1, or 11 for a ECL=CL race. Is that the correct value to plug in as average save DC? Also, do you have any mental guidelines on how to deal with a poison or similar ability that has some unusual, non-ability-damage effect? For example, a poisoned bite with primary d6 DEX and secondary Paralysis? Or Unconsciousness? (As noted in the Poisons section, paralysis lasts 2d6 minutes and Unconsciousnes lasts 1d3 hours, unless otherwise stated.) Oh, I should also ask -- on Ability Damage, is there a price break for poisons due to the 1-minute delay before secondary damage, which usually allows time for treatment? Or do you pay the whole price up front? Is a poison with Primary and secondary 1d6 Dex equivalent to, say, an incorporeal touch that deals 2d6 dex?
Lord_Gareth 09-16-06, 01:59 PM	This is gonna sound REALLY stuipid, but: what in the nine flaming hells are feature points?
MeklorIlavator 09-16-06, 02:11 PM	If you read the first page, you will find out that feature points are a system of asigning points to features of a race, like ability modifiers or flying, pretty much anything you can ad to a race
Lord_Gareth 09-16-06, 02:22 PM	Okay, but what do they DO? Is there a feature point-to-LA conversion? Are they supposed to help you make your own race? Are they just there to exist? What?
Keenath 09-16-06, 07:18 PM	Okay, but what do they DO? Is there a feature point-to-LA conversion? Are they supposed to help you make your own race? Are they just there to exist? What? Yes, it's a method of assigning mechanical values to racial abilities to see if you're in the right area or over- or under-powered. It also, by extension, allows you to methodically tell if a race needs to be LA +1, +2, whatever. Actually, what happens is, you add up all the FP your racial features are worth. There's a cost for racial hit dice (based on the size of the die, the number of skills you gain, BAB, and so on), which you just add into the whole thing. You come up with a value, which you go look up on the table helpfully printed in PDF format a page or three back. That table tells you what your ECL is with a given number of points. Subtract your racial HD from that value, and that's the LA. For example: Suppose I make a race with two racial HD and 152 FP worth of abilities. That 152 includes the cost of those two HD. Looking on page 3 of the PDF, the first chart in there, 152 FP is squarely in the "CL+5" range, meaning that this race, with one class level, is about the same as a core race with 6 class levels. I had 2 racial hit dice, so subtracting those from 5, I see that my level adjustment is +3.
Lord_Gareth 09-16-06, 07:22 PM	I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me. By the way, what would inspire the rant I saw the other day, "Feature Points are B.S.?"
TheAnthroDM 09-16-06, 07:29 PM	I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me. By the way, what would inspire the rant I saw the other day, "Feature Points are B.S.?" Some people don't like FP, some people do. Some people like them too much, others hate them too much.
Lord_Gareth 09-16-06, 07:46 PM	Alright, to get an example (and just because I'm curious), what would the feature-point conversion be on my Dra'Konites (Dra'Konite race posted a little below this thread)?
Yuri_Zhivago 09-17-06, 12:47 AM	As always, Gareth, if you want a race to be evaluated, it would be best for you and everyone who wants to help you if you posted a stripped down (purely mechanical) version of your race in this thread, and waited for a response. I don't know how much you have been reading this topic, but it's an experimental system. Yaba has been working on this for at least a year, and the aforementioned PDF file is the Beta. Every time a race is posted in here for evaluation, the system is tested, critiqued, and ultimately grows stronger. This is a project which many people want to succeed (as should be evidenced by the ten previous pages of posts). It's good to have any "target practice" for this thing we can get. Yuri
Keenath 09-17-06, 01:17 AM	I see. Thanks for clearing that up for me. By the way, what would inspire the rant I saw the other day, "Feature Points are B.S.?" Generally speaking: FP are not intended to be a perfect system; only a guideline. Some people don't understand that, and loudly point out any situations that the system does not accurately model as proof that the system is worthless. A race, for example, that has a highly focused set of abilities will tend to be more valuable in play than a race with abilities that are all over the place, even if their FP costs are identical. Humans are a good example of the former; you're guranteed that your feat and skills will be beneficial to your class selection. By contrast, a half-elf gets some abilities that are generally useful, and some that are only of particular interest to a small number of classes. That the two have identical FP costs is not a failing of the system. Both races fall within the suggested power level for ECL +0, and that's all the system is intended to measure. It should not be construed that a race with 14 FP is "stronger" than a race with 12 FP, nor that all 10 FP races are created equal. Now, obviously a race with 30 FP should be LA +1, while a 13 FP race is LA +0 -- the gap is huge and the power difference obvious. The smaller the gap, the less certainty you can have. A difference of four points is probably not detectable in actual tabletop play, and that four points is where a lot of the rants are looking. I should mention, while I'm here, that half-orcs suffer under the FP system primarily because, like many people here, Yabba does not subscribe to WOTC's concept that physical bonuses must be balanced by double-penalties to the mental stats. FP treats all stats equally, and therefore the half-orc comes off a major loser at 1 FP. If you accept the WOTC concept (which I don't), then half orcs would actually read in at 4 FP, which is still pretty far short of the mark, but not quite as terrible as the standard FP system measures them.
Lord_Gareth 09-17-06, 07:39 AM	Alright. Here's the Dra'konites for evaluation. Racial Features: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, -2 Wis Medium: As medium creatures, Dra'Konites have no bonus or penalty associated with their size Humanoid Claws: Dra'Konite nails are roughly an inch long, very hard, and vry sharp, resulting in 1d4 slashing claws. Dra'Knite claws do not need trimming once they attain one inch in length, and if they lose their claws, a week or a Regenaration spell to re-grow. Until then, the claws cease to be effective. +2 to saving throws versus cold-based attacks and enviornments. Dra'Konites have a pulse that puts rats to shame. Darkvision 60 -or- Low-Light vision (player's choice). Dra'Konites have inherited the senses of their dragon and elven heritages, but individual Dra'Konites lean towards one or the other. Moody Eyes: Dra'Konites gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks and a -4 penalty on Bluff checks. They have a conditional -2 penalty on Intimidate checks (this penalty applies only if the Dra'Konite isn't really angry or doesn't really want to strong-arm the victim of the check). Dra'Konite eye color changes in accordance to their emotions; they literally show every feeling on their face. Limited Flight: Gliding (Ex): A Dra'Konite can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Raptorans glide at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). Even if a raptoran's maneuverability improves, she can't hover while gliding. A raptoran can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load. If a raptoran becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. The raptoran descends in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall. Flight (Ex): When a Dra'Konite reaches 5 Hit Dice, she becomes able to fly at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). A raptoran can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. Raptorans can safely fly for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). They can exert themselves to fly for up to twice as long, but then they're fatigued at the end of the flight. Raptorans are likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because raptorans can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, they can remain aloft for extended periods (even if they can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued). When they reach 10 Hit Dice, Dra'Konites have enough stamina and prowess to fly for longer periods. They can fly at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability), and flying requires no more exertion than walking or running. A raptoran with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the raptoran must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A raptoran can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage. A raptoran with flight can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line. Languages: Dra'Konites speak Common, Elven, and Draconic. They also have a semi-secret language called Drank, which is a wild mixture of the other three languages they speak. A non-Dra'Konite (or a person who hasn't lived with Dra'Konites for ten or more years) must be able to speak Common, Elven, and Draconic in order to learn Drank, and even then must make a Speak Language check (DC 25) to completely understand it. Favored Class: Sorcerer. Dra'Konites are inherantly magical and many follow the Sorcerer's path.
saidin0111 09-17-06, 04:02 PM	so, to have a decent chance of having my assessment of my new race examined, I decided to post the mechanical info here, I have the flavor added in a seperate thread if you have much to comment about, hunt up the thread where I have the race posted so that it doesn't use up a lot of space in this thread Soul Bound Medium Outsider (Native, Augmented Human) [3FP] (see below for other type related costs) [TFP=3] 1HD DEX +2, INT +2, WIS -2; the follies of the ancestors carries on in their veins, though some part of the possessing fiends intellect and agility is passed on as well [4FP + 4FP - 3FP = 5FP] [TFP=8] 40 ft. base land speed [6FP] [TFP=14] Proficiencies: Soul Bound, though Outsiders, are only proficient with all simple weapons, so long as they devote one day to practising with any given type of simple weapon. [2FP] [TFP=16] Darkvision: Soul Bound possess darkvision, but only out to 30' instead of 60' [1FP] (assumption) [TFP=17] Low-light Vision: Soul Bound possess low-light vision, seeing twice as far as a human in bright and shadowy illumination [1FP] [TFP=18] Open Soul(EX): The willingness of their forebearer(s) to accept outside entites into themselves has weakened the will of their souls, Soul Bound take a -2 penalty on all will saves related to possession, but they gain a +1 bonus to binder level if they gain the ability to bind with vestiges. [-.5FP + 2FP = 1.5FP] [TFP=19.5] Darkened Powers(EX): any effect used by a Soul Bound that has a Good descriptor loses that descriptor and recieves a -1 caster/manifester/mystery user/ etc. level penalty {-1FP} , on the other side, any effect that has the Evil descriptor gains the Vile descriptor and recieves a +1 caster/manifester/etc. level bonus {2FP} [1FP] [TFP=20.5] Abnormal Presence: A Soul Bound has three of the following abnormalities, one of which must be marked with an * and no more than one can be marked with a #; *Unnatural Aura(EX): this ability allows those around a Soul Bound to feel that something just doesn't seem right with them and imposes a -2 penalty on the Soul Bound's social interactions with others, though Intimidate instead gains a +4 bonus. [1FP] *Smell of Brimstone(EX): this ability causes the smell of brimstone to always be present without the aid of magic or some other effect to disguise it, this obviously alerts other beings to the fiendish connection of the Soul Bound, altering their reactions accordingly [-1FP] *Unholy Rage(EX): this ability forces the Soul Bound into a frenzy when taking damage in excess of 3 points per HD, while so affected, they gain a +2 STR bonus and 5 temporary HP, but cannot use any ability or feature that requires calm or concentration, this lasts for 3 rounds or until the "transgressor" is rendered harmless, whichever occurs first. [2FP] *Barbed Tail(EX): this ability manifests as a barbed tail similar to that of a Succubus, this obviously has implications for initial reactions from others if not hidden, though keeping it restricted beneath clothing other than something loose like a cloak is very uncomfortable and would likely not be endured for any reasonable length of time [-0.5FP] Fiendish Skin(EX): this ability grants a +1 Natural Armor bonus to the Soul Bound, while giving them the vague appearance of the offspring of some fiend. [6FP] Fiendish Resilience(EX): this ability grants a resistance of 10 to one of fire, acid, electricity, or cold and a corresponding change, warmer or cooler skin, a slight acrid scent, or a crisp ozone smell in the area immediately around them [5FP] Limited Tounges(SU): this ability grants the ability to speak and understand one select language each day, but the Soul Bound's speach has a second tone and pitch that is heard along with their normal voice, thereby giving a very disturbing effect to it and penalizing spoken interactions with non-evil creatures by -2 on skill and CHA checks, but granting a +2 to intimidate neutral creatures and +4 to intimidate good creatures [6FP] (cut SLA FP in half due to limitations) Demonic Guise(SU): this ability grants the use of Disguise Self (CL=1) at will and the duration lasts until the Soul Bound chooses to end it or it is dispelled [8FP] #Winged Terror(EX): this ability causes bat-like wings to develop on the Soul Bound's back and grants a fly speed of 60 ft. (average) {40FP} and +2 increse to DEX {5FP + 3FP = 8FP} [48FP] #Deep Denizen(EX): this ability grants the aquatic subtype and the amphibious ability {10FP} as well as a swim speed of 90 ft. {6FP} as they grow webbing on their hands and feet, a dorsal fin, and gruesome fins along their arms and legs, they also gain immunity to cold {20FP} and a resistance of 12 against acid {6FP} and two natural attacks with their jagged arm fins (1d6, slashing) {(1FP + 7FP - 5FP)x2 = 6FP} [48FP] #Burrowing Menace(EX): this ability causes their body to become hard and stony and thickly built, granting a +2 increase to STR {4FP} and CON {4FP}, but incurring a -2 penalty to DEX {-4FP} (since it takes away the normal +2 DEX increase), gaining a burrow speed of 30 ft. {6FP} as well as immunity to acid {20FP}, DR 1/adamantine {12FP}, and immunity to critical hits {5FP}, their weight also increases by 50% due to their increased bulk and denser build [47FP] #Being of Power(SU): At Will: Prestidigitation {1FP + 4FP = 5FP}, Mage Armor {4 FP + 3FP = 7FP}; 1/day: Flare {1FP}, Ghost Sound {1FP}, Detect Good {4FP}, Undetectable Alignment {4FP}, Alter Self {7FP}, Darkness {7FP}, and Invisibility {7FP} CL=1/2HD (min. CL=1), they also recieve an all around +2 caster level increase {5FP} [48FP] [MAX FP W/O # = 16FP] [TFP=36.5FP] any Soul Bound with an Abnormal Presence with a # has an additional +2 LA Languages: Automatic - Common; Bonus- Any Favored Class: Binder [36.5FP; LA +1 balanced] or [84.5FP; LA +3 balanced] LA +1 or LA +3 with a # ability build is as a human, but age ranges are increased by 10% after adult
Nelyo 09-18-06, 03:16 AM	I'm trying to figure out the Feature Points for the Killoren (from Races of the Wild) and I thought I'd come here for some input on their aspect of nature manifestations. One gives a +2 bonus to initiative (among other, more easily statted items), which I think is probably worth about 2 points, since it's half a basic feat (Improved Init. worth 3 points) but stacks with that feat. I may be undervaluing this though, as acting sooner more often in combat is nice. Another gives Cha mod smites per day (min. 1, no more than 1 per hour) that add +Cha to attack +HD to damage and can only be used on specific creature types (although this covers a wide variety of creatures). I don't really have a clue what this is worth in Feature Points. The other aspect gives +HD to Knowledge(Nature) checks. I'm not entirely sure how to assign points to this either, as the formula in the pdf for delayed features applies to features that are completely withheld until a certain level is reached. I don't think this would be worth more than 2 FP though. Also, Killoren have a -2 penalty on attacks when wielding cold iron weapons. How much should this penalty deduct from their FP total? Obviously not the -3 that a blanket -2 penalty to melee attacks gets. Maybe -1? -0.5?
Vestigial_Thumb 09-18-06, 12:32 PM	What would say was the value of Pounce, Telepathy out to 100 feet and the ability to bring unwilling creatures along with you using Greater Teleport? And I really need to know how to calculate the spell-like abilities. The tables are all weird (then again, I suck at reading tables).
Vestigial_Thumb 09-18-06, 01:06 PM	Or you could just calculate them for me: Spell-like abilities (CL 6th): At will – darkness, cause fear (DC 12), dispel magic, greater teleport (DC 18), see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 16) 2/day – disguise self (DC 12), invisibility, major image (DC 14)
Nelyo 09-18-06, 02:18 PM	Okay, well you need to calculate the rough ECL of the race before you can figure out the caster level adjustment for spell-like abilities, but we can get the basic costs figured out at least. At Will - darkness (second level spell [7FP] usable at will w/duration of 10 min./lvl and a single target [8FP] for a total of [15FP]) Cause Fear (DC 12) (I'm not sure if there's a cost for the slightly boosted DC, I'll just assume that it's based off a creature stat. 1st lvl spell [4FP] usable at will on a single target [8FP] for a total of [12FP]) Dispel Magic (3rd lvl [10FP] plus at will on a target [8FP] for [18FP]) Greater Teleport (7th lvl [18FP] at will [8FP] I think, for [26FP]) See Invisibility (2nd lvl [4FP] at will self only w/ 10min./lvl duration [4FP] for [8FP]) Telekinesis (5th lvl [17FP] at will [8FP] for [25FP]) 2/day (I'm not sure exactly how many FP being 2/day adds as opposed to being 1/day. I'll just give 1/day values for the time being, and let someone more knowledgeable chime in) Disguise Self (1st lvl [4FP]) Invisibility (2nd lvl [7FP]) Major Image (3rd lvl [10FP]) So you're looking at about 125 FP for the spell-like abilities, assuming your races ECL is 6. If it's lower than that, it'll cost 1+(6-ECL) FP, if it's higher, it'll cost less for the CL penalty (I'm not sure how to read that part of the table). If the ECL does turn out to be higher than 6, I'd just boost the caster level of the SLAs to match.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-18-06, 03:13 PM	Thanks for that, man. So far (with Pounce and Telepathy not included, and Abduction only estimated (probably does not have that high a value)) the Bar-Lgura seems to be +9 LA underpowered.
Yuri_Zhivago 09-18-06, 11:36 PM	I have my own version of orcs from a homebrew that I'd like to be done up. If anyone is curious, PM me for a brief background on my orcs. Orc Racial Traits • +2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma: orcs have a natural understanding of others, but often refuse to acknowledge their own self importance. • Medium: as medium creatures, orcs gain no special bonuses or penalties. • Orc base land speed is 30 feet. • Divine Empathy (Ex): orcs gain a +2 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks made with intelligent Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids of the same alignment as the orc, as long as that creature knows that they are an orc. • Spell-like Abilities: All orcs can use Cure Minor Wounds once per day as a caster of the orc’s character level. In addition, an orc with a wisdom score of at least 14 may use Create Water, Guidance and Resistance in the same fashion. • Languages (not established and, ultimately, not important) Favored Class: Cleric. Yuri
YabaTheWhat 09-19-06, 03:35 PM	At Will - darkness (second level spell [7FP] usable at will w/duration of 10 min./lvl and a single target [8FP] for a total of [15FP]) I just want to take a moment to point out that the at-will listing is not an additional cost. It is a multiplier. Basically, if you cast a spell with N parameters at will, it is worth the same as casting it X times per day. Thus the spell-like ability Darkness at will would be worth 7x8 = 56 FP, plus 3 FP for the caster level. Spell-like ability costs do take into account that the abilities have no components, making them both stilled and silenced.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-19-06, 05:23 PM	<snip> Okay, so can anyone help me figure the LA for the Bar-Lguras? I've got (not including Pounce, Abduction and Telepathy 100 ft.) a +9 LA underpowered Bar-Lgura. I already posted the stats (which I found out was legal for these purposes).
Nelyo 09-20-06, 02:03 AM	I just want to take a moment to point out that the at-will listing is not an additional cost. It is a multiplier. Basically, if you cast a spell with N parameters at will, it is worth the same as casting it X times per day. Thus the spell-like ability Darkness at will would be worth 7x8 = 56 FP, plus 3 FP for the caster level. Spell-like ability costs do take into account that the abilities have no components, making them both stilled and silenced. Whoopsie, thanks for the correction, YabaTheWhat. I'm still not sure how to factor caster level in, is the cost based on what the minimum CL for the SLA is, or on the CL compared to the race's HD/ECL? Is it a single cost/penalty if all of a race's multiple SLAs use the same CL or is it applied for each one? At any rate, it's probably a moot point here. The SLAs are worth: Darkness (56FP) + Cause Fear (32FP) + Dispel Magic (80FP) + Greater Teleport (144FP) + See Invisibility (16FP) + Telekinese (136FP) + Disguise Self (8FP) + Invisibility (14FP) + Major Image (20FP) = 506 FP This puts the Bar-Lgura in the the ECL 13+CL balanced range by virtue of SLAs alone. If your previous calculation was based on the previous (incorrect) amount of 125, then the extra 375 FP are enough to push it from ECL 15 underpowered (6 HD w/+9 LA) to the ECL 20 balanced (6 HD w/+14 LA) range before pounce, telepathy, abduction abilities, plus caster level for the SLAs are factored in. It won't take many FP to push the ECL into the epic range, so this doesn't look like a viable PC race.
Thurbane 09-20-06, 04:04 AM	Yabba, sorry if I missed this, but could you possibly do a point breakdown of the 1/2 Ogre and 1/2 Giant races? I'm sure 1/2 Ogres are getting the royal screwjob...
Vestigial_Thumb 09-20-06, 09:30 AM	Whoopsie, thanks for the correction, YabaTheWhat. I'm still not sure how to factor caster level in, is the cost based on what the minimum CL for the SLA is, or on the CL compared to the race's HD/ECL? Is it a single cost/penalty if all of a race's multiple SLAs use the same CL or is it applied for each one? At any rate, it's probably a moot point here. The SLAs are worth: Darkness (56FP) + Cause Fear (32FP) + Dispel Magic (80FP) + Greater Teleport (144FP) + See Invisibility (16FP) + Telekinese (136FP) + Disguise Self (8FP) + Invisibility (14FP) + Major Image (20FP) = 506 FP This puts the Bar-Lgura in the the ECL 13+CL balanced range by virtue of SLAs alone. If your previous calculation was based on the previous (incorrect) amount of 125, then the extra 375 FP are enough to push it from ECL 15 underpowered (6 HD w/+9 LA) to the ECL 20 balanced (6 HD w/+14 LA) range before pounce, telepathy, abduction abilities, plus caster level for the SLAs are factored in. It won't take many FP to push the ECL into the epic range, so this doesn't look like a viable PC race. Damn youse demonses!
Keenath 09-20-06, 11:34 AM	Yabba, sorry if I missed this, but could you possibly do a point breakdown of the 1/2 Ogre and 1/2 Giant races?I'll hit the half-giant real quick... *+2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity: 4+4-3 = 5 FP *Giant type: 3 FP *LLV: 1 FP *+2 saves vs. fire: 1 FP *Naturally Psionic: 4 FP (see below) *Psi-Like Ability: 1/day—stomp: 4 FP *Powerful Build: 14 FP (see below) Total: 32 FP 32 FP puts the half-giant bang in the middle of the LA +1 range, so I'd say this is a perfectly balanced race. Natually Psionic: I priced this as if it were "Wild Talent as a racial bonus feat"; a bonus feat is 3 FP base, plus 2 if it's a prereq to at least 3 other feats. This is a prereq to all psi feats, which certainly qualifies, but you can *also* gain that prereq with psi classes, so I reduced the prereq cost from +2 FP to +1 FP, for a total of 4. Powerful Build: Yaba worked out the cost of Powerful Build back on page 2. The cost may have varied somewhat between then and now, but I'm not going to bother with it; the difference should be minimal.
Thurbane 09-21-06, 03:30 AM	Wow, 14 for powerful build! :eek:
Anauroch 09-21-06, 08:28 AM	Yes, powerful build is powerful... as the name implies.. :P Think about what you gain without having to give up the usual things...
Keenath 09-21-06, 10:49 AM	The only benefit of Large that you don't get is reach, while you avoid all the usual pitfalls of large size -- attack and defense penalties and hide penalties.
Yuri_Zhivago 09-21-06, 10:57 AM	Has anyone ever thought of making a reciprocal ability to Powerful Build? Something like, Slight Build? Maybe like:Slight Build: In a situation where it would be advantageous to them (Hide checks, and what else), an XXXXXX counts as being one size category smaller than it actually is. What would the FP for such an ability? Yuri
MaximumHavoc 09-21-06, 11:01 AM	Has anyone ever thought of making a reciprocal ability to Powerful Build? Something like, Slight Build? Maybe like:Slight Build: In a situation where it would be advantageous to them (Hide checks, and what else), an XXXXXX counts as being one size category smaller than it actually is. What would the FP for such an ability? Yuri someone did something like this for kobolds. a great idea.
Keenath 09-21-06, 02:16 PM	someone did something like this for kobolds. a great idea. Yeah, it's been around for a while in a few different incarnations. In general, it wouldn't cost much. Advantages *Weild smaller weapons with no penalty. Smaller weapons are generally worth 1 point less damage on average, until you get smaller than a d4 -- then they go down by .5 damage per size. However, since this is a *choice*, you basically just get the ability to use a wider array of magic weapons you may find. With Kobolds, it's a bit of a moot point, since you don't find an awful lot of Tiny weapons, but if you did, you could use them. I'll rate this at 0 FP; it won't come up often, and when you try to use it, you take an offsetting disadvantage in damage potential. *Squeezing. You can act as if you were a size smaller for purposes of fitting in small areas. In other words, small creatures can act as if they had a space of 2.5 feet to see if they're slowed by a small passage, and they can take the penalties to squeeze into an area only a bit over a foot wide. This is extremely conditional, but it's a distinct advantage if you are ready to make use of it. You're avoiding a -4 attack and -4 AC penalty, which is pretty huge. I'm going to rate this around 6 FP, but that may be wildly off. Note that this part of the ability allows swarmfighting -- Kobolds could pack four to the square and still fight normally by using their slight build to act as if they had a space of 2.5 feet. *Hiding: You can act as if you're a size smaller when hiding, which will give an additional +4 on the check. 2 FP So I figure this ability is worth about 8 FP, with the caveat that I'm not really sure about that pricing for the Squeezing thing.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-21-06, 02:49 PM	So let's calculate the Kobolds with the variant racial traits described here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) Kobold Characters Kobold characters possess the following racial traits. -4 Strength (-5 FP), +2 Dexterity (4 FP), -2 Constitution (-3 FP). Small size: +1 bonus to Armor Class, +1 bonus on attack rolls, +4 bonus on Hide checks, -4 penalty on grapple checks, lifting and carrying limits ¾ those of Medium characters. (0 FP) A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet. (6 FP) Darkvision out to 60 feet. (3 FP) Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks. (3 FP) Racial Feats: A kobold character gains feats according to its character class. (0 FP) +1 natural armor bonus. (6 FP) Natural Weapons: Kobolds have two primary claw attacks that deal 1d3 points of slashing damage plus Strength bonus (1 FP), and a secondary bite attack that deals 1d3 points of piercing damage plus 1/2 Strength bonus (5 FP). Despite possibly being the weakest reptilian humanoid, kobolds retain a connection to their feral nature. Special Qualities (see above): Light sensitivity. (-1 FP) Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category. (6 FP) (estimation) Weapon Proficiency: Kobolds receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the heavy pick and light pick as bonus feats. (2 FP) Weapon Familiarity: Kobolds may treat greatpicks (see below) as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. (0.5 FP) Automatic Languages: Draconic. Bonus Languages: Common, Undercommon. (0 FP) Favored Class: Sorcerer. (0 FP) So it's 24.5 FP as opposed to being previously 13. It comes down to being LA +1 underpowered, but I don't see how it's particularly overpowered for a +0 LA race. Do we have our first failure (please say it ain't so)? EDIT: God damn it! I always added them all because only one of them actually does anything.
Lord_Gareth 09-21-06, 04:07 PM	Hey Yaba (or anyone, for that matter...), could ya sneak a peek at my Dra'Konites, posted a page or two back on this thread, and FP 'em? I kinda want to see how they stack up to the system. Plus, it would confirm or deny the supposed LA+0 of their current build.
Keenath 09-22-06, 01:33 AM	EDIT: God damn it! I always added them all because only one of them actually does anything. What did that mean? I don't understand. And, possibly related, I got a total value of 28.5 -- not 24 as you stated. It's funny, really -- Kobolds bring together all the elements of the system that I think may be a little wacky. From the high Natural Weapon cost of non-claw attacks to the major cost of increased movement speed to the high natural armor value, it's all in there. I think there should be some sort of price break on secondary natural attacks; primary natural attacks in PC races are often with the hands (claw, slam, etc) and thus get a 5-point cost reduction for giving up a weapon attack, but secondary attacks -- which will always be made at -5 -- get no such rate cut. A primary natural weapon, such as a werewolf hybrid's bite, takes a penalty when combined with a weapon attack, but not if you use it exclusively, so it doesn't get a rate cut (to my way of thinking). Anyway, as noted in that same article, the massive strength penalty makes those natural weapons virtually useless. You'll have a tough time hitting, and when you do hit, it'll be dealing 1 point of damage, more likely than not. However: I've always thought Kobolds got a bad rap, largely because the standard kobold you meet is not heroic. A kobold's high dex, natural armor, and small size add up to a major AC boost before you even get to equipment. A heroic kobold (elite array) will likely have 17 Dex starting out, with +1 natural armor and +1 size bonus -- that's AC 15 buck-naked. Toss on a chain shirt and you have AC 19 while wearing light armor, and you haven't even got magic into the mix yet. Futhermore, a heroic kobold has more HP than his kin. Even a moderate d6 hit die and average Con score (8, for kobolds), he's got 5 HP, and a lot of elves are in the same boat. Even the strength penalty is pretty moot; people don't take Small races for their melee prowess. With high dex, low str, and size, Kobolds are (like halflings) practically purpose-built sniper rogues. A crossbow (even the underused hand-crossbow) doesn't care what your strength is, and sneak attack dice easily overshadow a rogue's strength-based damage anyway. And with the Crossbow Sniper feat (PHB2), they're doing better than a lot of human rogues. Last, and not least, kobolds are fine casters. No mental penalties, and with the dragon flavor, they're certainly qualified sorcerers. A good dex is always beneficial to an unarmored caster who may be using rays and touch attacks; strength is the traditional caster dump-stat anyway; and a con penalty doesn't leave the kobold caster any weaker than an elf in the same class. No, kobolds don't make good fighters or barbarians. So what? Neither do halflings. People often overlook the benefits of natural armor and speed 30 in a small character.
Argaud 09-22-06, 07:37 AM	*Squeezing. You can act as if you were a size smaller for purposes of fitting in small areas. In other words, small creatures can act as if they had a space of 2.5 feet to see if they're slowed by a small passage, and they can take the penalties to squeeze into an area only a bit over a foot wide. This is extremely conditional, but it's a distinct advantage if you are ready to make use of it. You're avoiding a -4 attack and -4 AC penalty, which is pretty huge. I'm going to rate this around 6 FP, but that may be wildly off. Note that this part of the ability allows swarmfighting -- Kobolds could pack four to the square and still fight normally by using their slight build to act as if they had a space of 2.5 feet. Since FPs are geared from the point of view of how much use to a PC are the abilities, the value of Squeezing and Swarmfighting should be calculated considering how often PCs find spaces 2.5 feet wide to force other creatures to fight them there (cramped), as well as how often can they join forces with other tiny or small-slight creatures to use Swarmfighting. The answer is... almost never. Those abilities are barely worth mentioning, and I'd say barely worth .5 FPs each. BTW, it is me or this system is failing completely for creatures over LA +1.
Teydyn 09-22-06, 11:01 AM	BTW, it is me or this system is failing completely for creatures over LA +1. You? It depends on how you define "Failing". Failing to reproduce WotC Level Adjustments? Yes, but its not supposed to do that. Failing to accurately pinpoint a creatures LA? Maybe, but then WotC seems to assign LA at random sometimes... Just use FP as an additional way to measure races. Others ways are common sense, playtesting, whatever else.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-22-06, 11:31 AM	What did that mean? I don't understand. Me neither. Disregard.
Keenath 09-22-06, 01:11 PM	Since FPs are geared from the point of view of how much use to a PC are the abilities, the value of Squeezing and Swarmfighting should be calculated considering how often PCs find spaces 2.5 feet wide to force other creatures to fight them there (cramped), as well as how often can they join forces with other tiny or small-slight creatures to use Swarmfighting. The answer is... almost never.Ah, but how often would your PC go into a cramped area if he knew he'd have a major advantage there? Anyway, I already cut the cost by a factor of 4, which is huge. -4 AC and attacks is a BIG penalty you're avoiding with this ability. BTW, it is me or this system is failing completely for creatures over LA +1.Not at all, it's working quite well.
Argaud 09-22-06, 02:43 PM	You? It depends on how you define "Failing". Failing to reproduce WotC Level Adjustments? Yes, but its not supposed to do that. Failing to accurately pinpoint a creatures LA? Maybe, but then WotC seems to assign LA at random sometimes... Although this is somewhat true, WotC tends to attempt to make the LA critters balanced with each other. I know, they fail as often as they get it right, but usually they fail only by a +/- 1 LA (and usually they make LA creatures weaker they should, honestly). On the other hand Yaba's FPs gives us absurdities like +9 LA Pixies (instead of +4), +4 LA Thri-kreen (instead of +2) or epic Bar-lguras (they are weak demons, far weaker than the ECL19 Hezrou or the ECL 18 Vrock). So yes, the system gives us an idea of the comparative power of the races, but it is failing to correctly asses the LAs of mid to high adjustment races. Ah, but how often would your PC go into a cramped area if he knew he'd have a major advantage there? Very rarely, most races don't build their dungeons, residences or streets 2.5 feet wide. Only tiny races would, and those are very uncommon.
Yuri_Zhivago 09-22-06, 09:34 PM	On the other hand Yaba's FPs gives us absurdities like +9 LA Pixies (instead of +4), +4 LA Thri-kreen (instead of +2) or epic Bar-lguras (they are weak demons, far weaker than the ECL19 Hezrou or the ECL 18 Vrock). It is possible that, with minor exceptions, the reason that these races are showing up as high as they are is because they are that powerful. For instance, I bet that if we were to measure the aforementioned "greater" demons, they'd end up considerably higher than the Bar-Iguaras. However, it is more likely that (as has been mentioned many times before) the FP system is still, for all of the hype, potential, and power associated with it, just a WIP (a Work In Progress, for those in the know). It should be treated as such. Yaba's endeavor is noble, and his intent good. Give him the criticism neccesary to complete his system: please don't clog the thread with unneccesary, frivolous rants (and I know I should not consider myself excepted, but this is important). Yuri This has been a public service announcement from Yuri_Zhivago.
Thurbane 09-22-06, 11:30 PM	So yes, the system gives us an idea of the comparative power of the races, but it is failing to correctly asses the LAs of mid to high adjustment races. I'm pretty sure Yabba himself stated early in this thread that A. calculating LA is not the main point of this system and B. that the system is nowhere near finished.
Vestigial_Thumb 09-22-06, 11:31 PM	I think I'll try comparing the Bar-Lgura to a basic character for good measure later (it's 3 AM right now).
Gnomish Zombie 09-23-06, 12:06 AM	Sorry for replying to a post that was on this thread a week ago, but I didn't have the time before. YabaTheWhat, I'm hoping you don't mind that I play devil's advocate on your points on level drain. Hopefully it will help draw out more reflection on the subject of it's FP worth. Level drain is one of those abilities that could probably use tweaking. If it drained an actual level, rather than the moderate impact of imposing a negative level, it would certainly be worth that cost. As is, if we treat it as worth about half the listed value, it would be comparable with a typical ability-damage poison attack. I based the value on the two spells noted beside the entry, and the power of those spells relative to a typical level drain ability. Before adjusting the value of level drain, think about the impact of a typical level drain. ¤ Level drain attacks are often touch. I feel that putting all the level-draining attacks in one bag is a mistake. It's a huge difference wether or not it's a touch attack, and I actually don't know that many monsters which have it as a touch attack (Specters, Devourer) vs those who have it as a normal attack or as an addon to a normal attack (Wight, vampires, vampire spawn), or a harder method, such as a grapple (succubus) or swallow whole (Nightcrawler). I don't think that you can price every ability the same regardless of the method of delivery. I do understand the need to do it at first, until you can come up with better alternatives... which would make my question, is there a better alternative? I'd cut the price by one quarter or so myself for those attacks that are addons to natural attacks (such as the wight's drain) and by one half for harder methods of delivery (or longer ones), such as grappling or swallow whole. That makes it so you have to go out of your way to use the ability, after all. But that's just a general impression and not really calculated at all. ¤ The creature takes negatives to all three saves, as opposed to only one save from ability damage. ¤ The creature takes negatives to its attack rolls and skill checks. ¤ The creature takes minor physical damage, bypassing all DR, in addition to any damage from the attack itself (if applicable). It is also counted as losing the hit die, which may reduce the effectiveness of any special abilities the creature possesses. point taken. Though for higher-HD/level creatures, that's lower than the damage taken from 1 or 2 points of constitution drain by a long shot. Still, +5 damage and +5 healing is nothing to sneeze at indeed. ¤ If the number of levels drained exceeds its total levels, it dies. Period. Only constitution damage has similar results. Every ability drain has incapacitating results if the ability reaches 0. The difference is that clerical help can restore them to fighting status quick enough. Furthermore, not all CR creatures/characters have high stats (at least not in every stat), whilst they often have high HD or level. Finally, wights and vampire spawns in particular seem more likely to kill their foes through raw hp damage than level drain (although the later is always an extra option). ¤ The results may become permanent. While this won't matter against a typical monster (because you plan to kill it anyway), recurring villains will find it a major hazard. True enough. Though access to divine magic can reduce the problem, it's never assured. Point taken again. Overall, draining one level is probably about equivalent to draining 2d6 points of constitution. And remember, the costs of level drain and ability drain are based on the monster's save DC, not a typical PC's save DC. The save DC for a PC may be up to 4 points higher, if the score used for that DC receives an unadjusted roll of 18. That's a bit of an exageration I believe. 2d6 point of constitution drain can kill many monsters outright, regardless of HD or level. Not so for draining one level. It can otherwise take from 1 to 6 hp per HD away from a creature. The later potentially cripples it's chances of survival to subsequent attacks of almost any nature the way no level drain could. Once again, con drain's effects scale with HD and levels, whilst level drain's effect become less noticeable the more HD or levels you have (because you have higher saves, skills, BAB, hp, and raw HD to begin with).
Goldrak 09-27-06, 04:17 PM	Hi! Besides a well deserved bump, i would like to see how my campaign world races are viewed (LA) under this system. Taurok • +4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution: Tauroks massively muscled but lack coordination. • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, Tauroks have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Taurok base land speed is 40 feet. • Natural attack: A Taurok may use his horns as natural weapons to make a gore attack, dealing 1d6 points of damage, plus his Strength modifier. A Taurok can attack with a weapon at his normal attack bonus and make a gore attack as a secondary attack (-5 penalty on the attack roll and ½ Strength bonus on the damage roll). • Powerful Charge: A Taurok may use his horns as part of a charge. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows them to make a single gore attack that deals 2d6 points of damage plus 1 ½ times his strength modifier. • +2 racial bonus on Survival skill checks. Tauroks are master hunters. • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons. Tauroks are experts in hunting with thrown weapons. • Automatic Languages: Giant and Common. Bonus Languages: Halfling. • Favored Class: The preferred class of the Taurok is Fighter. A multiclass Taurok fighter class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing. Ceann • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity and -2 Charisma: Ceann are extremely strong and resistant but their movements are slow and there are not very social. • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, ceann have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Ceann base land speed is 20 feet. • Darkvision: Ceann can see in the dark up to 60 feet. • Skin of Stone: Ceann have exceptionally tough and hard skin, which gives them a +1 natural armor. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, 20th, etc). • Unique anatomy: Ceann have a unique anatomy. Their skin and internal organs are very resistant and hard to damage. They are immune to nonlethal damage and receive a +4 deflection bonus on AC against rolls to confirm critical hits. • Hardiness: Ceann have natural stamina that seems not to dissipate. They are immune to exhaustion and fatigue effects. • Magic immunity: Ceann’s are immune to the Flesh to Stone spell but a failed save from a Stone to Flesh instantly kills them. • Mineral Feeding: Ceann’s must feed on minerals; they do not eat food or drink water. They must be in contact, and not moving, with any natural rock for 1 hour/day (not necessarily continuous) to replenish themselves. If they do not do this they start to starve and take lethal damage from starvation. Their skin and organs start to crack and eventually crumble to dust. • Automatic Languages: Common and Terran. Bonus Languages: Dwarven and Orc. • Favored Class: The preferred class of the ceann is Fighter. A multiclass ceann fighter class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing. Galadrin: They need a small explaining. My world is has portals that link several regions. This portals give acess to a special dimension (the Way's) that need to be travelled to reach other portal. Galadrin have special powers in and outside the Way's related to them and the portals. • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, Galadrin have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Galadrin base land speed is 30 feet. • Low-light vision: Galadrin can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail in these conditions. • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate skill checks: Galadrin have natural and imposing presence that they use to impress others. • +2 racial bonus on Open Lock skill checks: Galadrin have an almost mystical connection with locks. Open Lock is always a class skill for them. • Portal Sensing (Su): Galadrin’s have a natural way of felling portals. Outside the Way’s, they can accurately sense the direction of any portal within a level/miles radius. This ability is always active. • Sense the Way (Su): Within the Way’s, Galadrin always know the correct path to any portals by which they already entered the Way’s. This ability is always active. • Spell Like Abilities: Due to their connection with portals, runes and direction, all Galadrin have the following spell like abilities; 1/day – Hold Portal, Open/Close, Read Magic, Know Direction. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + Galadrin’s Wis modifier + spell level. See the spell descriptions on pages 241, 258, 269 and 246, respectively. • Automatic Languages: Galic and Common. Bonus Languages: Draconic. • Favored Class: The preferred class of the Galadrin is sorcerer. A multiclass Galadrin sorcerer class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing. Luminae • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, Luminae have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Luminae base land speed is 30 feet. • As beings of energy, Luminae do not need to eat or drink. • Energize: Luminae do not sleep, as members of other races need to. Instead, they must remain completely immobile for 4 hours a day for their body to fuel itself with energy. A Luminae resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. They remain completely and normally aware of their surroundings. • Body of Light: As a being of pure energy, a Luminae have a natural glow that sheds light. This glow gives them a -4 penalty on hide checks unless suppressed. A luminae can try to suppress his natural glow as a swift action, but this is difficult for them, it takes fortitude save (DC 15) each round to maintain the suppression. They can also intensify (or reverse the intensification) the glow as a swift action, providing bright light out to a number of feet’s up to their current hit points. If they intensify the glow they cannot hide but are immune to dazzle and blinding affects that rely on light. • Positive Healing (Su): Due to their connection to positive energy a Luminae can heal wounds (on others) by touch. Each day, by giving some of his natural positive energy, a Luminae can take one hit point of damage, per level, and heal twice that number of hit points. A Luminae may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using Positive Healing is a standard action. Alternatively, a Luminae can use this power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using positive energy in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an AoO. A Luminae decides how many hit points he can use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature. • Automatic Languages: Celestial and Common. Bonus Languages: • Favored Class: The preferred class of the Luminae is Paladin. A multiclass Luminae paladin class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing. Yarko • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, yarko have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Yarko base land speed is 30 feet. • Sight (Ex): The curse that cost their eyes was replaced by a special form of sensorial sight. They can “see” in an area formed by a cone (see below) due to feeling vibrations on the air and the ground. This sight is blurry and doesn’t allow them to see colours, they just see multiple shades of grey. They cannot discern individuals of the same type clearly unless they are really near them (5 feet). The area they can “see” increases with level (1-140' long, 5-160' long, 10-180', 15-200' long, 20-220' ). As a standard action they can change this sight to a 10 feet radius blindsight that also increases 5 feet each five levels starting at level 5. • Weapon Familiarity: Yarko are masters of their space, and their extensive use and training with the spiked chain, allows them to treat the weapon as a martial weapon rather than exotic weapons. • Automatic Languages: Terran and Common. Bonus Languages: Elven, Sylvan, Dwarven. • Favored Class: The preferred class of the Yarko is Ranger. A multiclass Yarko ranger class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing. Thanks!! :)
Keenath 09-27-06, 08:17 PM	Taurok • +4 Strength (9+3), -2 Dexterity (-3), +2 Constitution (4): Tauroks massively muscled but lack coordination. 13 FP • Taurok base land speed is 40 feet. 6 FP • Natural attack: gore attack, 1d6 damage. 8 FP • Powerful Charge: Ad hoc 4 FP • +2 racial bonus on Survival 1 FP • +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons. 1 FP Total: 33 FP - Balanced LA +1 Ceann • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity and -2 Charisma 2 FP • Ceann base land speed is 20 feet. -4 FP • Darkvision 60 ft. 3 FP • Skin of Stone: natural armor +1(6) increases by +1 at 5th(2 2/3), 10th(1), 15th(1/3), 20th(0) 10 FP • Unique anatomy: immune to nonlethal damage(4?) and +4 deflection bonus vs critical hit confirmation(8?) Ad hoc 12 FP • Hardiness: immune to fatigue 10 FP • Magic immunity: immune to the Flesh to Stone spell but a failed save from a Stone to Flesh instantly kills them. Ad hoc 1 FP (This effectively just reverses the effect of those two spells.) • Mineral Feeding: feed on minerals; contact, and not moving, with any natural rock for 1 hour/day Ad hoc 1 FP Total: 35 FP - Balanced LA +1 Galadrin: • Low-light vision: 1 FP • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate 2 FP • +2 racial bonus on Open Lock 1 FP • Open Lock always a class skill Ad hoc 1 FP • Portal Sensing (Su): sense the direction of any portal within a level/miles radius, always active. (I assume you meant "1 mile per level"; this is similar to at-will Locate Object with a limited target list and vastly increased range. I would suggest reducing the range by a lot -- like maybe a few hundred feet. Probably worth a 3rd level spell.) Ad hoc 50 FP • Sense the Way (Su): always know the correct path, always active (Again, this is very powerful, similar to at-will Find the Path with a limited target list. Probably worth a 4th level spell.) Ad hoc 52 FP • Spell Like Abilities: 1/day – Hold Portal (4), Open/Close (1), Read Magic(1), Know Direction(1) 7 FP Before I go further, it's "Ways". You don't use an apostrophe unless it's posessive or a contraction. Total: 12 FP plus portal abilities; currently approximately 114 FP - Balanced LA +0 without portal powers; Balanced LA +4 with Luminae • As beings of energy, Luminae do not need to eat or drink. (Edit: Or breathe, I assume?) 18 FP, or 3 if they do breathe • Energize: Elf-meditation 1/2 FP • Body of Light: -4 penalty on hide checks unless suppressed. Fortitude save (DC 15) each round to suppress. (-1 FP) • Glow as a free action, bright light in feet up to their current HP (Light as at-will ability, self only: 4). Cannot hide but are [immune?] to dazzle and blinding effects that rely on light.(3) 7 FP • Positive Healing (Su): Take damage up to level, heal twice that amount in another. (As Empathic Transfer psi power, at will.) Ad Hoc 35 FP (Note: If this seems high, consider that outside battle, this ability effectively doubles all healing by allowing the Luminae -- or is that Luminus? -- to heal others, and then cast cure spells only on the Luminae. This is the same as allowing free maximize on all cure spells cast by the party!) Total: 59.5 FP - Balanced LA +2 Yarko • Sight (Ex)... This is a problem. In D&D we don't calculate sight as a cone. You're assumed to be moving your head all the time, looking around. Vision is always a circle. The only exceptions are abilities that require extreme concentration and focusing on an area, such as detect spells. Besides, this would be unworkable in a game; you'd have to constantly be defining where a yarko is "looking"; it'd take more game time than it's really worth. So, I'm going to take the liberty of rewriting this ability. What you're actually trying to get at is blindsense out to a long radius (detecting location and general shape, but no detail) and also blindsight to a very small radius (the area where they can detect facial features, etc). At first level, a yarko has blindsense out to 140' (47) and blindsight out to 5'(9). At fifth level and every five levels thereafter, the area of blindsense increases by 20' and the blindsight area increases by 5'.(5) 61 FP-Blindness I don't actually know what cost to apply to permanent blindness. Using the Grimlock as a guide, it's probably worth at least -8, and probably closer to -20 or so. You might consider adding the immunities Grimlocks have -- to gaze attacks and visual illusions, and so on. Altogether, I estimate those immunities at 11 FP, so when you combine that with blindness, it adds up to maybe -9 FP. Blind: Ad hoc -20 FP Immunities: 11 FP • Weapon Familiarity: Yarko are masters of their space, and their extensive use and training with the spiked chain, allows them to treat the weapon as a martial weapon rather than exotic weapons. .5 FP Total: 53 FP - Balanced LA +2 I would strongly suggest reducing the blindsense area to something more reasonable than hundreds of feet; 60' blindsense plus five foot blindsight should be fine, with the level based increases, and bring this down to a balanced +1 LA. Note that in this case, using a spiked chain's reach is going to be striking into the area where you can't see clearly, and everyone will be getting 50% miss chances.
Goldrak 09-28-06, 10:49 AM	Hi! Thanks for the reply! Some questions: Taurok • +4 Strength (9+3) Why 9+3 ?? Ceann • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity and -2 Charisma 2 FP Why does it cost 2 FP on these attribute choices? Aren´t they balanced by the rules (Strenght vs Dexterity and Constitution vs Charisma) ? Shouldn't be 0 FP?? • Unique anatomy: immune to nonlethal damage(4?) and +4 deflection bonus vs critical hit confirmation(8?) Ad hoc 12 FP Perhaps i'm mistaken, but on the PDF i got an immunity to critical hits costs 5 FP. Why would a bonus on AC vs a critical confirmation cost more than an immunity? Galadrin: • Portal Sensing (Su): sense the direction of any portal within a level/miles radius, always active. (I assume you meant "1 mile per level"; this is similar to at-will Locate Object with a limited target list and vastly increased range. I would suggest reducing the range by a lot -- like maybe a few hundred feet. Probably worth a 3rd level spell.) Ad hoc 50 FP Yes, i meant 1 mile per level. I never tought of it as a locate object but it makes sense. But it would be a "minor" permanent locate object on a single object that can't be changed, the portal. If a gave it the locate object range (400ft+40ft/level) how much would the ability cost? And if i make the ability usable a number of times per day, say one or two? • Sense the Way (Su): always know the correct path, always active (Again, this is very powerful, similar to at-will Find the Path with a limited target list. Probably worth a 4th level spell.) Ad hoc 52 FP Never tought of this power as a find the path but it make a lot of sense! Altough it is a diferent find the path because he knows the direction to all places he has been before in a very specific location. So at the begining of play (level one) this power will not work because the character as not yet entered the Ways (thanks for the tip on the apostrophe :)). So you say it costs around 52 FP? Luminae • As beings of energy, Luminae do not need to eat or drink. (Edit: Or breathe, I assume?) Yes they breath. • Glow as a free action, bright light in feet up to their current HP (Light as at-will ability, self only: 4). Cannot hide but are [immune?] to dazzle and blinding effects that rely on light.(3) 7 FP Some typos here, it is a swift action and as you correctly guessed they a immune to those effects. :) • Positive Healing (Su): Take damage up to level, heal twice that amount in another. (As Empathic Transfer psi power, at will.) Ad Hoc 35 FP (Note: If this seems high, consider that outside battle, this ability effectively doubles all healing by allowing the Luminae -- or is that Luminus? -- to heal others, and then cast cure spells only on the Luminae. This is the same as allowing free maximize on all cure spells cast by the party!) Humm... Well, i'm not quite sure it's that disruptive... because the cleric would have to spend his cures on the Luminae (single and plural :)) if he used his power on others. Wouldn't that be "almost" as not having a luminae and just a cleric healing the group? What if i made them cure not twice but the number of hp lost? or half the hit points? Yarko • Sight (Ex)... So, I'm going to take the liberty of rewriting this ability. What you're actually trying to get at is blindsense out to a long radius (detecting location and general shape, but no detail) and also blindsight to a very small radius (the area where they can detect facial features, etc). Perhaps my description is not very good and the cone seems indeed a mistake. I'm not tring to give them blindsense, i'm trying to give them a "minor" standart vision, they can see at a distance of 140' as a good as a human would but only in shades of grey and with no detail unless at 5', so basically it would be a standart vision with limited range and perception.They are not blind and would be affected by blindness and similar effects (that rely on sight). They trade this for blindsight that increases with level. So how much would this ability cost with blindsight? and blindsense instead blindsight? Thanks again!!! :)
Boshi 09-28-06, 01:09 PM	*looks over updates to the system* As things stand with the current set-up (unless I am very confused) a race that has -2 to every stat and +1 to every skill and save would count as overpowered for +0 LA, so things still need a good bit of tweaking. Things seem to be moving in the right direction however.
Goldrak 09-28-06, 02:43 PM	Hi! • Hardiness: immune to fatigue 10 FP Forgot about this one. :) How would a fatigue reisistance be counted? Say half the damage and half the time to recover from? I also forgot to post one of the races :embarrass : Felian • +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength: Felians have natural agility but lack physical power. • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, felians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. • Felian base land speed is 30 feet. • Low-light vision: Felians can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail in these conditions. • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison: Felians have developed a natural resistance to poison due to their secular habit of hunting and eating venomous spiders. • Improved Balance: Felians tail and their natural balance qualities give them a +4 racial bonus on Balance checks. A Felian can engage in accelerated movement (moving at his full speed as a move action) or charge across a precarious surface without taking the -5 penalty on the Balance check. • Great Leap: Being natural leapers, their low weight and impulsion power gives them a +4 racial bonus to Jump checks. Felians can make standing long jumps and high jumps as if they were running long and high jumps. They also ignore maximum vertical reach. • Run of the Cat: He can increase his speed to 40 feet if he moves on all four. If he chooses to move this way, he can’t use his hands to hold objects or perform similar actions that use the hands. • Automatic Languages: Common and Felic. Bonus Languages: Sylvan and Elven. • Favored Class: The preferred class of the Felian is Ranger. A multiclass Felian ranger class does not count when determining whether she suffers an XP penalty from multiclassing. Thanks :)
ryryguy 09-28-06, 02:52 PM	Interesting system. One thing I can't quite figure out though, is how to calculate FPs for a template that grants additional SLA's as the base creature rises in hit dice. For example, half-celestial or half-fiend. I understand you should apply to a base creature and evaluate that, not just the template alone, but how do you handle the fact that the abilities aren't available until later? If anyone could show me how to work it out with, say, a human half-celestial or half-fiend, I'd appreciate it.
YabaTheWhat 09-28-06, 03:47 PM	How would a fatigue reisistance be counted? Say half the damage and half the time to recover from?That depends how this reflects on fatigue with undefined durations, such as "Until the end of the encounter." (see Rage)Interesting system. One thing I can't quite figure out though, is how to calculate FPs for a template that grants additional SLA's as the base creature rises in hit dice. For example, half-celestial or half-fiend. I understand you should apply to a base creature and evaluate that, not just the template alone, but how do you handle the fact that the abilities aren't available until later? If anyone could show me how to work it out with, say, a human half-celestial or half-fiend, I'd appreciate it. For every 2 levels (i.e. every 2 HD) which the creature needs to wait before gaining the feature, multiply its value by 2/3. This should be listed under Delayed Features on the Notes page.
ryryguy 09-28-06, 04:34 PM	For every 2 levels (i.e. every 2 HD) which the creature needs to wait before gaining the feature, multiply its value by 2/3. This should be listed under Delayed Features on the Notes page. OK, thanks. Do you round fractions up or down when applying that modifier? Let's see if I've got this straight. Say we're applying a template to a FP 10 base race that has no racial HD. Say the template grants one SLA, usable once a day, every other HD, with the level of the SLA increasing one each time (except for the last at HD 19, which would be a 10th level spell following the progression, so we'll make it just another 9th). So the SLA's granted will look something like this: SLA lvl Gained at ---------------- 1st 1 2nd 3 3rd 5 4th 7 5th 9 6th 11 7th 13 8th 15 9th 17 9th 19 This is pretty similar to a half-celestial's SLA grants, though not quite as good - the half-celestial gets mulitple SLAs in some of the lower slots, and a few are usable more than one time a day, some have high GP cost components, etc. but I want to keep it simple here. Then for a 1st level base creature, the modified costs would look like this (assuming we truncate fractions): SLA lvl HD Base FP Mod Adj. FP ------------------------------------------------ 1st 1 4 1 4 2nd 3 7 0.666666667 4 3rd 5 10 0.444444444 4 4th 7 13 0.296296296 3 5th 9 17 0.197530864 3 6th 11 21 0.131687243 2 7th 13 25 0.087791495 2 8th 15 29 0.058527663 1 9th 17 34 0.039018442 1 9th 19 34 0.026012295 0 Base level: 1 Total FP: 24 Total FP for this creature is 10 + 24 = 34, giving us ECL 2 (class level 1 + LA 1), right in the middle of the balanced range. I was curious, what would happen as we level this guy up? I guess the problem is that I'd have to calculate FP's for his class levels, which is more of a pain than I want to deal with. However we can pretty easily figure out the FP cost just for these SLA's as level goes up: HD FP ------- 1 24 3 38 5 52 7 72 9 94 11 116 13 141 15 163 17 182 19 194 Basically, what I'm trying to see is if the value of this feature alone stays in the same range on the "Feature Points by Effective Character Level" chart as ECL rises. In other words, is it worth the same level adjustment at different character levels. It ought to, I think.
Angel Black 09-28-06, 08:24 PM	This is in reference to the FP cost for extra limbs. The document lists the cost as, "3 FP (held item slot) + 9 FP (weapon slot if applicable) + 6 FP (shield slot if appplicable)..." and so on. I argue that the Shield slot cost doesn't make sense, and the other extra-limb costs seem bizarrely large ... Additional Shield Slot would only apply if a multilimbed creature had some special ability to gain full benefit from a shield in each limb. Then cost could be +6 FP per limb (+3 FP per item type that extra limb can wear: item and sword) because most of the time held an item can be as useful and dangerous as held a sword.The other way around would be : Normal arms +9 Extra arms +5 (-2 ring -2 shield) I am just guesing around, trying to figure out how does much a Marilith arm costs :D
Keenath 09-29-06, 03:33 PM	Why 9+3 ??You pay a premium for your highest ability score, to reflect the fact that a very high ability score is a big benefit, but each additional high ability score has a reduced effect on the character's power. The premium for +2 is zero, so there's no extra cost for that, but if your highest score is +4, you pay an extra 3 points. If you had a second +4, you would pay only 9 points for that; the premium only applies one time, and its value is determined by your highest score. This is found on the ability score chart (page 4), in the column marked "Highest". Note that it works in reverse; if you have a character whose highest ability score is an 8, you get the FP payback for all the ability scores you reduced, plus an extra -2 FP. Why does it cost 2 FP on these attribute choices? Aren´t they balanced by the rules (Strenght vs Dexterity and Constitution vs Charisma) ? Shouldn't be 0 FP??No. +2 is worth 4 FP, while a -2 is worth only -3. This reflects the min-max potential of the situation; naturally you play to your strengths and try to cover for your weaknesses. For example, a race with -2 dex and +2 str will tend towards heavier armor and big melee weapons, because low dex doesn't matter so much when your armor has a max dex of +1 or +2, and melee weapons (especially two-handed ones) benefit from higher-than-average strength. Thus, a balanced +2/-2 still costs 1 FP to account for that potential. Note that the FP system considers all ability scores to be equal -- There is nothing wrong with +2 CON/-2 WIS. The WOTC decisions that "mental bonuses at LA +0 are bad" and "it takes two mental penalties to balance a strength bonus" are hotly debated, and Yaba (among others) disagrees strongly with these concepts. Perhaps i'm mistaken, but on the PDF i got an immunity to critical hits costs 5 FP. Why would a bonus on AC vs a critical confirmation cost more than an immunity?Because I wasn't paying attention when I wrote that. Reduce the AC vs Crit to 3 FP, which pulls down that whole ability to a total of 7 FP, and the race's total to 30 FP, which is still balanced LA +1. Yes, i meant 1 mile per level. I never tought of it as a locate object but it makes sense. But it would be a "minor" permanent locate object on a single object that can't be changed, the portal. If a gave it the locate object range (400ft+40ft/level) how much would the ability cost? And if i make the ability usable a number of times per day, say one or two? Locate Object is a 2nd level spell. Considering the limitation of targetting only one type of object (albeit a very important one), I'll reduce that to 1st level. If it has the same stats as Locate Object, then... A first-level spell 1/day is 4 FP. Just multiply that by the number of uses per day to find that cost. As an always-on ability, I calculate as if it were at-will. (You might consider making it at will rather than always on, where the guy has to concentrate a few seconds to sense gates rather than noticing them instantly.) I'm consdiering LO to be a Personal range spell rather than target-area, since it really represents a magical sense in the caster, rather than an effect upon the area. As a 1 min/level spell, that gives it an at-will multiplier of 5 -- in other words, at will is the same as 5/day, or 20 FP. Never tought of this power as a find the path but it make a lot of sense! Altough it is a diferent find the path because he knows the direction to all places he has been before in a very specific location. So at the begining of play (level one) this power will not work because the character as not yet entered the Ways (thanks for the tip on the apostrophe :)). So you say it costs around 52 FP?That number is a total guess, really. It's an amazingly good ability. Within a limited environment, he can always find his way to anywhere he's been. And it's only your claim that 1st level ones have never stepped into the Ways -- it would be to the race's advantage to take their children through as many gates as possible, stepping in and back out to "program" another location in their little brains. I might suggest reducing the ability -- It could be a decent-sized bonus to Survival checks to avoid getting lost in the Ways (DC 15 or so normally, but you might make the Ways more difficult to navigate than average, pushing up the DC to 25), in which case it wouldn't be that expensive -- 1 FP for each +5, I suspect. Alternatively, you could make it an innate Find The Path that works only on the last gateway they entered, allowing them to find their way back to the starting point, but not guide to any random point in the Ways. This would probably cost, oh... about a 2nd level with 10 min/level duration, maybe 28 points. You're probably better off with the survival thing. Humm... Well, i'm not quite sure it's that disruptive... because the cleric would have to spend his cures on the Luminae (single and plural :)) if he used his power on others.Okay, reread what I said. Assume the Luminae has 25 HP, and there is about 40 points of damage distributed among the party. The luminae takes 20 points of damage to heal up those 40 HP of damage, and then takes two cure spells to recover those 20 points. He saved the cleric two cures, effectively doubling the cleric's healing capacity for the day. See the issue? What if i made them cure not twice but the number of hp lost? or half the hit points?That would be much less expensive. However, it could still become disruptive if there's no daily limit to the power -- if the Luminae could get even the most minimal version of fast healing, like a ring of regeneration, the party would have access to virtually unlimited HP. And that doesn't even take into account more powerful fast-healing effects like the Aura Of Vigor from the PHB2's Dragon Shaman. I'd suggest just giving him 1/day or 2/day Empathic Transfer (as the psi power). Perhaps my description is not very good and the cone seems indeed a mistake. I'm not tring to give them blindsense, i'm trying to give them a "minor" standart vision, they can see at a distance of 140' as a good as a human would but only in shades of grey and with no detail unless at 5', so basically it would be a standart vision with limited range and perception.Ohhh. So it's a whole race of colorblind myopics without glasses. Mmm... I don't know how I'd write the cost for that. You need to define exactly what the condition inflicts -- a penalty on spot checks (in particular, a major increase in the range penalties), perhaps on search as well, penalties on ranged attacks (double the range incriment penalty?), and so on and so forth. So how much would this ability cost with blindsight? and blindsense instead blindsight? Mmmkay.... well... I'd suggest blindSENSE just on flavor grounds; if you're trying to describe a preternatural hearing ability, that's sense. Blindsight is reserved for actual echolocation or similar abilities that are as accurate as normal vision. As for what it costs, I would much prefer that you look at the PDF and post a suggestion, and ask if it looks right, rather than demanding that somebody else do all the work for you.
Keenath 09-29-06, 03:50 PM	Then cost could be +6 FP per limb (+3 FP per item type that extra limb can wear: item and sword) because most of the time held an item can be as useful and dangerous as held a sword.The other way around would be : Normal arms +9 Extra arms +5 (-2 ring -2 shield) I am just guesing around, trying to figure out how does much a Marilith arm costs :DYeah, that's what I'm trying to figure too. I'm not seeing the point of an "item slot", honestly -- you pay through the nose for an extra weapon-hand, and using the "item slot" means giving up the weapon to do so. It's part-and-parcel of having a weapon-using (but not natural-weapon) appendage. +5 seems like a reasonable price to me -- an extra light offhand weapon would be worth 5 to 7 points (calculated by Yaba's method of max+min) for a dagger or shortsword (depends on proficiencies), and perhaps a mild cost reduction because your extra hand is always an off-hand... +5 per arm seems like a decent cost for a weapon limb. If the limb can only hold an item but not a weapon, I'd call it +2. As a note, this only works if the appendage is non-manipulative, like a monkey's tail. You can pick something up and hold it, but you can't use it to do any action. You can't use it to drink a potion, wave a wand, or anything like that; it's just an extra holder. Fine manipulative ability makes it a weapon using hand and worth +5. Note also that if your extra limb has a natural attack (like a tail whip), it counts as "replacing a weapon" if the limb is the +5 version, but not if it's the +2 version. So: Extra limb: +2 (holds an item) or +5 (fine manipulator/weapon use), add an additional 12 points if you get extra actions with the limb (if it can, for example, take a move action while you're doing something else) and 18 if it allows spellcasting while you're taking other actions. These extra costs only apply once per extra action or spell cast, regardless of how many extra limbs you actually have. So: For example, a Marilith's six arms would be worth +20 point (four additional weapon limbs), while a race with a prehensile tentacle would pay only +2 points, even if it's dextrous enough to rummage through a bag and find a particular item. If it can't weild weapons or aim wands, it doesn't count as a weapon hand. If that tentacle could also deal a d4 slam attack, it would cost a total of 8 points -- 6 for the slam, and 2 for the item-use. By contrast, a Marilith's d8 slam-arm is worth 10 points -- 5 for the weapon, 10 for a d8 natural weapon, and -5 for the slam replacing a manufactured weapon attack (as normal for natural weapon costs).
Keenath 09-29-06, 03:59 PM	*looks over updates to the system* As things stand with the current set-up (unless I am very confused) a race that has -2 to every stat and +1 to every skill and save would count as overpowered for +0 LA, so things still need a good bit of tweaking. Things seem to be moving in the right direction however. That's not a very good way to see if it 'works' or not. Lots of different skill bonuses WILL be expensive out of proportion to their use, because the skill costs are balanced for a realistic application of bonuses. Yes, a total +8 skill points is worth the same as an ability boost. So what, though? Any race with "-2 dex, +1 to all dex-based skills" would be kind of stupid anyway. You should remove both of those and instead give them a -1 AC and -1 Reflex penalty, calculating the FP return for what they lost, rather than the FP cost for what they get. You're poking at edge cases that will virtually never happen with a real race. If you have a point to complain about, use a realistic test rather than pushing the envelope.
Yuri_Zhivago 09-29-06, 04:46 PM	Hi everyone, I have a few races I would like evaluated: two are builds of pre-existing races for my homebrew, and the last is a demi-original race (four arms are a lot more popular than I would have originally thought). Orcs •+2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma •Medium: as medium creatures, orcs gain no special bonuses or penalties. •Orc base land speed is 30 feet. •Divine Empathy (Ex): orcs gain a +2 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Sense Motive checks made with intelligent Humanoids and Monstrous Humanoids of the same alignment as the orc, as long as that creature knows that they are an orc. •Spell-like Abilities: All orcs can use Cure Minor Wounds once per day as a caster of the orc’s character level. In addition, an orc with a wisdom score of at least 14 may use Create Water, Guidance and Resistance in the same fashion. •Automatic Languages: Common and Orc. Bonus Languages: •Favored Class: Cleric. A multiclass orc’s cleric class does not when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Chitahuri •+2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence •Medium: As medium creatures, a chitahuri gains no size-related bonuses or penalties. •Chitahuri base land speed is 40 feet. •Tail: A chitahuri’s strong tail (and the muscles which go with it) provide a +2 bonus on Balance, Jump, and Swim checks. They may also use their tails to make a natural Tail Slap attack for 1d6 damage, or to make a trip attack as if they had the Improved Trip feat. •Hold Breath (Ex): Chitahuri have a muscular valve in their nostrils, which combines with their natural hardiness to allow them to hold their breath underwater for a number of minutes equal to twice their Constitution score. •Automatic Languages: Common, Isizal. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Orc, and Sylvan. •Favored Class: Druid. A multiclass chitahuri’s druid levels do not count against him when determining his penalty for multiclassing. Alfatem •+2 Strength, -2 Wisdom •Monstrous Humanoid: The alfatem are creatures of the monstrous humanoid type, and possess all the traits of that type as listed in the Monster Manual. •Medium: As medium creatures, an alfatel gains no size-related bonuses or penalties. •Alfatel base land speed is 30 feet. •Four Arms: An alfatel’s carriage sports an additional set of arms, midway down the torso. This replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting chain of feats with the Multiweapon Fighting feat, and allows an alfatel to wield four one-handed or light weapons. It also grants a +2 Competence bonus to Climb checks when using the second set. •Inexorable Pride: An alfatel takes a -4 penalty on all Charisma-based skill checks when dealing with intelligent, non-alfatel Aberrations, Fey, Giants, Humanoids, Monstrous Humanoids, and Undead. In addition, they suffer a -4 penalty to any Will Save against a spell or effect produced by a creature who they perceive Helpful towards them, and a -2 penalty against similar effects from creatures they perceive as Friendly. Conversely, They gain a +1 or a +2 bonus on Will Saves against effects produced by creatures they percieve as Unfriendly or Hostile, respectively. •Acclimated: The alfatem don’t receive the normal penalties for desert travel described in the Dungeon Master’s Guide. Alfatem do not lose this acclimation, even if they have been in non-desert conditions for two or more weeks. •Automatic Languages: Common and Yaddi. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Goblin, Gol-kaa, Gnoll, Gnome, Halfling, Ignan, Isizal, Orc and Sands. •Favored Class: Fighter. An alfatel’s Fighter levels do not count against him when determining his penalty for multiclassing.
Goldrak 09-29-06, 04:50 PM	Okay, reread what I said. Assume the Luminae has 25 HP, and there is about 40 points of damage distributed among the party. The luminae takes 20 points of damage to heal up those 40 HP of damage, and then takes two cure spells to recover those 20 points. He saved the cleric two cures, effectively doubling the cleric's healing capacity for the day. See the issue? That would be much less expensive. However, it could still become disruptive if there's no daily limit to the power -- if the Luminae could get even the most minimal version of fast healing, like a ring of regeneration, the party would have access to virtually unlimited HP. And that doesn't even take into account more powerful fast-healing effects like the Aura Of Vigor from the PHB2's Dragon Shaman. I'd suggest just giving him 1/day or 2/day Empathic Transfer (as the psi power). Hummm, you're probably right...although there are some issues to consider. The ability is usable 1/day (perhaps its badly worded, i say each day and should have said 1/day) and he can only loose a number of hp equal to his level, so in your example the luminae needed to be level 20 to heal the 40 hp on others. Healing 40 hp on a 20 level party doesn't seems much... On level 1 he could heal 2 hp, 4hp on level 2, etc... Ohhh. So it's a whole race of colorblind myopics without glasses. Something like that... :) Mmm... I don't know how I'd write the cost for that. You need to define exactly what the condition inflicts -- a penalty on spot checks (in particular, a major increase in the range penalties), perhaps on search as well, penalties on ranged attacks (double the range incriment penalty?), and so on and so forth. The condition doesn't imply any mechanical penalty other than the range of sight and the inability to discern details unless within 5'. As for what it costs, I would much prefer that you look at the PDF and post a suggestion, and ask if it looks right, rather than demanding that somebody else do all the work for you. Ok, you're probably right. Thanks for the help. :)
Goldrak 09-29-06, 07:49 PM	Hi! So here is my reading of my races (except Tauroks that look fine). Some have changed abilities. Could you please take a look at my numbers? Ceann • +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Dexterity and -2 Charisma: 2 FP • Medium-size: 0 FP • Ceann base land speed is 20 feet. -4 FP • Darkvision: Ceann can see in the dark up to 60 feet. 3 FP • Skin of Stone: Ceann have exceptionally tough and hard skin, which gives them a +1 natural armor. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, 20th, etc). 10 FP • Stone Resilience: Ceann have a unique anatomy. Their skin and internal organs are very resistant and hard to damage. They are immune to nonlethal damage and receive a +4 deflection bonus on AC against rolls to confirm critical hits. 7 FP • Mineral Feeding: Ceann’s must feed on minerals; they do not eat food or drink water. They must be in contact, and not moving, with any natural rock for 1 hour/day (not necessarily continuous) to replenish themselves. If they do not do this they start to starve and take lethal damage from starvation. Their skin and organs start to crack and eventually crumble to dust. 1 (or 0, not quite sure if its worth a feature point) FP Total: 18/19 FP - Underpowered LA +1 or Overpowered LA +0 Felian • +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength: Felians have natural agility but lack physical power. 1 FP • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, felians have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. 0 FP • Felian base land speed is 30 feet. 0 FP • Low-light vision: Felians can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail in these conditions. 1 FP • +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison: Felians have developed a natural resistance to poison due to their secular habit of hunting and eating venomous spiders. 1 FP • Improved Balance: Felians tail and their natural balance qualities give them a +4 racial bonus on Balance checks (2). A Felian can engage in accelerated movement (moving at his full speed as a move action) or charge across a precarious surface without taking the -5 penalty on the Balance check. (3??) Ad hoc 5 FP • Great Leap: Being natural leapers, their low weight and impulsion power gives them a +4 racial bonus to Jump checks. Felians can make standing long jumps and high jumps as if they were running long and high jumps. They also ignore maximum vertical reach. (Some sort of modified jump spell) Ad hoc 6 FP • Run of the Cat: He can increase his speed to 40 feet if he moves on all four. If he chooses to move this way, he can’t use his hands to hold objects or perform similar actions that use the hands. (Special form of speed increase) Ad hoc 4 FP Total: 18 FP - Overpowered LA +0 Galadrin • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, Galadrin have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. 0 FP • Galadrin base land speed is 30 feet. 0 FP • Low-light vision: Galadrin can see twice as far as humans in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. They retain the ability to distinguish color and detail in these conditions. 1 FP • +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Intimidate skill checks: Galadrin have natural and imposing presence that they use to impress others. 2 FP • +2 racial bonus on Open Lock skill checks (1): Galadrin have an almost mystical connection with locks. Open Lock is always a class skill for them (Ad hoc 1).2 FP • Portal Sensing (Su): Galadrin’s have a natural way of felling portals. Once per day a galadrin can use the Locate Object spell (as a caster of the Galadrin level) and sense the direction of all portals within range. 4 FP • Sense the Way (Su): Within the Ways, Galadrin senses the energies that roam about and instinctively know how to navigate there. They receive a +10 racial bonus on Survival skill checks. 2 FP • Spell Like Abilities: Due to their mystical connection with portals, runes and direction, all Galadrin have the following spell like abilities; 1/day – Hold Portal, Open/Close, Read Magic, Know Direction. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + Galadrin’s Wis modifier + spell level. 7 FP Total: 18 FP - Overpowered LA +0 Luminae • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, Luminae have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. 0 FP • Luminae base land speed is 30 feet. 0 FP • As beings of energy, Luminae do not need to eat or drink. 3 FP • Energize: Luminae do not sleep (they are immune to magic sleep effects (3)), as members of other races need to. Instead, they must remain completely immobile for 4 hours a day for their body to fuel itself with energy. A Luminae resting in this fashion gains the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep. They remain completely and normally aware of their surroundings (1/2 elf meditation). 3 1/2 FP • Body of Light: As a being of pure energy, a Luminae have a natural glow that sheds light. This glow gives them a -4 penalty on hide checks unless suppressed. A luminae can try to suppress his natural glow as a swift action, but this is difficult for them, it takes a fortitude save (DC 15) each round to maintain the suppression (-1). They can also intensify (or reverse the intensification) the glow as a swift action, providing bright light out to a number of feet’s up to their current hit points (light at will: self only, 4). If they intensify the glow they cannot hide but are to dazzle and blinding affects that rely on light (3). 6 FP • Positive Healing (Su): Due to their connection to positive energy a Luminae can, once per day, heal wounds (on others) by touch. They heal another creature’s wounds, transferring some of its damage to themselves. When a Luminae use this power, the target regains a number of hit points equal to twice the level of the Luminae and the later lose hit points equal to half of that amount. (This loss can bring him to 0 or fewer hit points.) Powers and abilities they may have such as damage reduction and regeneration do not lessen or change this damage, since they are taking the target’s pain into themselves in an empathic manner. The damage transferred by this power has no type, so even if they have immunity to the type of damage the target originally took, the transfer occurs normally and deals hit point damage to them. (Lesser form of Empathic Transfer psi power,doesn't heal poison, disease or ability damage, once per day) Ad hoc 5 FP Total: 17.5 FP - Overpowered LA +0 Yarko • Medium-size: As Medium-size creatures, yarko have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. 0 FP • Yarko base land speed is 30 feet. 0 FP • Sight (Ex): The curse that cost their eyes was replaced by a special form of sensorial sight. They can “see” in a reduced area (140’ that increases 20’ every 5 levels starting at level 5). This sight is blurry and doesn’t allow them to see colours, they just see grey shades. They cannot discern individuals of the same type clearly unless they are really near them (5 feet). In all other aspects it functions like normal vision. (lesser form of normal sight, Ad hoc -2 ). Additionally they have blindsense on a 10 feet radius that also increases 5 feet each five levels starting at level 5. (not sure on the math, Ad hoc 12) 10 FP • Weapon Familiarity: Yarko are masters of their space, and their extensive use and training with the spiked chain, allows them to treat the weapon as a martial weapon rather than exotic weapons. 1/2 FP • Yarko special sensitive abilities give them the Blind Fight feat. 3 FP Total: 13.5 FP - Balanced LA +0 Thanks! :D
Keenath 09-30-06, 02:16 AM	Hummm, you're probably right...although there are some issues to consider. The ability is usable 1/dayOHhhhhhhh. I never got that it was a once per day ability; I thought it was unlimited use, but limited wound transferrence per use! I appologize; it's not disruptive at all if it's just once per day. And not worth so many points; make that ability worth about 7 FP. (Just like 1/day Empathic Transfer.) Can the luminae transfer up to X points per day only all at once, healing twice the damage dealt, or can it break that X up into as many uses as needed?
Keenath 09-30-06, 02:23 AM	Additionally they have blindsense on a 10 feet radius that also increases 5 feet each five levels starting at level 5. (not sure on the math, Ad hoc 12)10' Blindsense is worth 10 points. For each 2 levels of delay, you multiply the cost of the increase by 2/3, so it's 4/9 * 3 (the cost for an additional 5' of Bsense) = 1.33, plus the level 10 increase (.6), plus leve 15 (.18), plus level 20 (.08), which all adds up to 2 and a bit. 12 points is a good estimate.
Goldrak 10-01-06, 10:37 AM	Hi! I appologize; it's not disruptive at all if it's just once per day. And not worth so many points; make that ability worth about 7 FP. (Just like 1/day Empathic Transfer.) No problem :). My english its also not very good... ;) I considered the ability a lesser form of Empathic Transfer since it doesn't allow to "heal" poison, disease or ability damage. Can the luminae transfer up to X points per day only all at once, healing twice the damage dealt, or can it break that X up into as many uses as needed? Has written its all at once but i'm pondering the other option. Is my math correct? Thanks
Yaeri 10-02-06, 01:37 PM	Hi, I tried applying the feature point system to all of my races (6) I got decent scores for three of them (in the 10-14 range), subpar scores of 7 and 9,5 for two others, but my question is about the last one. It has vulnerability to fire which makes the race take 50% extra damage from anything that causes fire damage. What would be the Feature point worth of that? Here's the complete race (The stats only): Entings *+2 WISDOM, -2 DEXTERITY (Entings share a lot of wisdom, but their rough hard bark-like skin makes them less agile) 1FP *Medium size creature: no penalties or bonuses OFP *Base speed 30 OFP *Bark-like skin: Natural AC= 1 ; 6FP *Weakness to fire. Entings take 50% extra damage from all fire effects that do damage. This works exactly like a fire elementals weakness to cold -3FP *Cold Resistance: 5 2.5FP *Low light vision 1FP *Bonus to saves against poison and diseases +2 . 2FP *+4 dodge bonus against animals 1FP and +1 to hit against dire animals 0.5FP *Handle animal +2: Knowledge (nature) +2, Survival +2: Move silently -2 2.5FP *Entings don't sleep. They are immune to sleep effects. They slumber for four hours each day, during which time they are only marginally less alert: -2 to listen and spot checks. 3FP *Languages: common, sylvan bonus languages: elven, aquan, auran, draconic *Favoured class: Druid.
Keenath 10-02-06, 05:04 PM	It has vulnerability to fire which makes the race take 50% extra damage from anything that causes fire damage. What would be the Feat point worth of that?I hope you meant feature points, because feats aren't involved here. Elemental/Energy Vulnerability is listed on page 15: +50% damage is worth -3 FP. Also, you asked, and the answer is no -- there is no cost change for ability score synergy with other abilities. In general, a race with a lot of synergistic abilities will have a higher strength than its cost indicates, while the opposite will tend to be weaker than its numerical score would suggest. However, that will only work if your class and you abilities work together. For example, a theoretical race that has natural armor, a dex bonus, and so on will tend to make a very good front-liner, while those abilities tend to be fairly unimportant for a caster. Non-synergistic abilities tend to be less advantageous to any single build, but give benefits that any class can get some benefit from. Humans are the extreme example of this; they clock in at around 10 points, but they're one of the better races because the racial abilities are guranteed to benefit you in your chosen class. However, note that you shouldn't get any benefit for favored class anyway, because that only comes into effect when multiclassing, which is relatively rare.
Keenath 10-02-06, 05:09 PM	Is my math correct?It looks pretty good to me. For the Felian great leap ability, you might look into the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHB2; it allows you to take no penalty while jumping from standing-start, or +5 on your check if you get a run-up.
Goldrak 10-02-06, 05:33 PM	It looks pretty good to me. For the Felian great leap ability, you might look into the Leap of the Heavens feat from PHB2; it allows you to take no penalty while jumping from standing-start, or +5 on your check if you get a run-up. Hi! I'll check it out! Thanks
Yaeri 10-03-06, 04:08 AM	Thanks for the reply. Sorry I missed the resistance entry in the list. I always do my best to see if I don't have the answer somewhere before I bother other people with it. But I still missed it. :embarrass So that brings my race at 15.5 FP. That's on the high side of LA+0, but I have the feeling 50%fire vulnerability is a bigger disadvantage than -3 so I think that's ok. And thanks in general to Yaba The What for setting up the feature point system. It was a helpful tool to test the balance of my races. :)
saidin0111 10-03-06, 04:15 AM	here is a race I recently created that is force based and therefore very powerful, but that also means it has some unique abilities that are not covered explicitly in the current release of the FP system, btw, it was created simply to create it and maybe as an NPC race Transcended Medium Outsider (Extraplanar) [3FP + 2FP + 1FP + 3FP + 3FP + 2FP + 9FP = 23FP] 3HD [4*4FP + 4*4FP + 4*3FP +30FP = 74FP] DEX +4, CHA +4, WIS -4 [9FP + 9FP + 3FP - 5FP = 16FP] 30 ft. base land speed [0FP] DR 10/- (EX) [84FP] ER fire 20, cold 20 (EX) [10FP + 10FP = 20FP] Immune to Poison, Disease, Acid, Critical Hits, & Sneak Attacks (EX) [10FP + 8FP + 20FP + 5FP = 43FP] Force Immunity (EX): Immune to all Force effects [20FP] (assuming equal to other energy types, but may need a larger value) Damage Immunity (EX): Immune to all mundane sources of damage, i.e. immune to masterwork dagger, but damaged by +1 greatsword [66FP] (may not deserve that, but I just considered it the same FP as bumping up to DR 20/-, since that would pretty much make it impossible to harm them through mundane sources, note though that this will not see great use at the levels that they would start play) Breathless (EX): Transcended do not need to breathe [15FP] Disintegration Weakness (EX): take an additional 50% damage from disintegration effects [-2FP] (severe weakness, but very specific) Fast Healing 1 (SU) [20FP] Immovable (SU): all efforts to alter their location or hinder their movement short of teleportation, slow, hold monster and similar effects fails outright (i.e.trip, bullrush, windgusts, slippery surfaces, steep slopes, etc.) [10FP] (assumed ~ = to a spell school, probably needs to be bumped up some) Force Strike (SU): their unarmed attacks deal lethal force damage and all unarmed and weapon attacks deal +1 force damage, thereby ignoring incorporeal miss chance [5FP] (just a guess really, I have no idea how to FP this one) Force Body (EX): their body is considered a force effect and prevents the effects of any anti-magic effect from affecting their racial abilities, though they still cannot cast spells, manifest powers, etc. [15FP] (another guess, but it is partial immunity to a really powerful effect) Skills: +4 racial bonus to Diplomacy and a +8 racial bonus to Craft(sculpting), racial skills are, Bluff, Craft(sculpting), Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, Knowledge(the planes), Perform(any one), and Sense Motive [6FP] Favored Class: Any Automatic Languages: Common Bonus Languages: Any (not secret languages) [415FP; ECL 11+CL balanced] LA +8
Keenath 10-03-06, 05:11 PM	And thanks in general to Jabba The What for setting up the feature point system. It was a helpful tool to test the balance of my races. :)It's Yaba. ^^
Yaeri 10-04-06, 06:48 AM	It's Yaba. ^^ DOH! :embarrass post edited.
Romtos 10-05-06, 03:52 AM	anyone else's PDF not have a print function?:confused: :confused: Late reaction, but I've got the same problem. What's up with that?
Kage_no_Neko 10-05-06, 06:51 PM	How about this template: -------------------------------- Spirit Child +2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma Spirit Step (Su) - As an immediate action the spirit child can become incorporeal (but not ethereal) until the beginning of its next turn. The spirit child may do this a number of times each day equal to its hit dice. If the spirit child is inside of a solid object at the start of its turn it automatically expends another use of this ability as an immediate action to remain incorporeal. If the spirit child has no more uses of this ability left at the start of a turn in which it start within a solid object, it is immediately shunted to the nearest empty space capable of holding it and takes d6 damage that ignores all damage reduction for each 5' it must traverse to reach that space. Spirit Touch (Su) - A spirit child's natural attacks, as well as any weapons or equipment it wields, are treated as having the ghost touch property. Spirit Sight (Ex) - A spirit child can see ethereal creatures (including spirits) as easily as it sees material creatures and objects. The spirit child can easily distinguish between ethereal creatures and material ones, because ethereal creatures appear translucent and indistinct. Strong spirits or spiritual affects will leave a faint aura detectable to the spirit child for some time with this ability. Living Spirit - A spirit child is considered a "spirit" for all abilities that specifically affect "spirits" (such as a Spirit Shaman's Castigate Spirit ability). Spirit children are immune to all death effects.
Boshi 10-11-06, 08:28 PM	That's not a very good way to see if it 'works' or not. Lots of different skill bonuses WILL be expensive out of proportion to their use, because the skill costs are balanced for a realistic application of bonuses. Yes, a total +8 skill points is worth the same as an ability boost. So what, though? Any race with "-2 dex, +1 to all dex-based skills" would be kind of stupid anyway. You should remove both of those and instead give them a -1 AC and -1 Reflex penalty, calculating the FP return for what they lost, rather than the FP cost for what they get. You're poking at edge cases that will virtually never happen with a real race. If you have a point to complain about, use a realistic test rather than pushing the envelope. You're right to some extent, but a good way of telling if something is broken is by often by using extreme examples to illustrate a point. I admit that the -2 dex +1 to every dex-related skill is a bit of a silly example but then under the Feature Point system Half-elves and Kobolds (both races that get quite a few skill bonuses) count as balanced when the consensus among players is that they are two of the weakest 0 LA races out there. I think the central problem with the feature point system is the EXTREME undervaluation of ability score adjustments, as if you take all the things that ability scores do (skill adjustments, saving throws, to hit, armor class etc. etc.) in almost every case those things (if given out seperately) will cost VASATLY most FPs than the ability score boost. For example how many FPs does: +1 to hit with ranged weapons, +1 to touch AC, +1 to all dex-related skills, +1 to reflex saves and +1 to initiative cost? And why should doing that cost many more feature points than a +2 adjustment to dex when both do exactly the same thing (actually dex also does fun things like work with weapon finesse and qualify you for a bunch of useful feats)? It doesn't make any sense and results in a lot of silly things popping up in the FP system (like half-elves and kobolds not showing up as weak and my silly example about the overpowered race with -2 stats and +1 to every skill).
RoCkEtInToXiCaTe 10-11-06, 09:47 PM	Um, essentially I was just wondering how close this expansive project is to being complete. I know it's been worked on for several, several months now. So I was just wondering how close, exactly, we are to finishing this. I'd like to get the final draft all compiled together so I can start to balance things, and make things better over all for the two groups I play with. This system is especially valuable to me, because I love the Half-Orc, and finally he'll be up to par with everyone else.
Kage_no_Neko 10-11-06, 11:14 PM	Um, essentially I was just wondering how close this expansive project is to being complete. I know it's been worked on for several, several months now. So I was just wondering how close, exactly, we are to finishing this. I'd like to get the final draft all compiled together so I can start to balance things, and make things better over all for the two groups I play with. This system is especially valuable to me, because I love the Half-Orc, and finally he'll be up to par with everyone else. Though I cannot speak for YabaTheWhat, I would say we are about half done. Yaba has created the basics from which all the rest will be built upon (whether or not you agree with how he has set it up). Now it seems all that is left is figuring out the corner cases that have been created with all the various monsters and races. Still this is not to say this is going to be easy; as the constant discussion (and complaints) about the various values Yaba has attributed to different abilities indicates that many feel that this draft is not yet complete enough to proceed.
Keenath 10-13-06, 03:59 PM	You're right to some extent, but a good way of telling if something is broken is by often by using extreme examples to illustrate a point. I admit that the -2 dex +1 to every dex-related skill is a bit of a silly exampleNot really. As I said before, this system -- as with virtually ANY system -- the edge cases are the most unbalanced, the most out-of-whack. You can construct a scenario to expose these weaknesses, certainly, but it usually requires a ridiculous set of circumstances that no actual game condition would ever duplicate. It's not a matter of asking if the system works every time, under every circumstance; FP are a rule of thumb for working out appropriate power levels. If it occasionally fails, it's probably not that big a deal -- particularly if you have to go out of your way to cause a failure. but then under the Feature Point system Half-elves and Kobolds (both races that get quite a few skill bonuses) count as balanced when the consensus among players is that they are two of the weakest 0 LA races out there.Halflings get more skill bonuses than either, and I've heard no complaints about how their FP total stacks up. However, you've now mentioned a few cases where the system appears to have failed in a non-edge-case, so I'm happy to discuss it. First, the half-elf. The half elf's problem is not an actual lack of abilities, but the fact that A) its bonuses are only beneficial in a limited number of circumstances, and B) it is not significantly more interesting than either of its progenitor races. The FP system measures neither of these elements. A bonus to Appraise is worth exactly the same as a bonus to Spot, although these skills have vastly different values to players in the game; similiarly, the FP system does not address how "interesting" a race is compared to other races. You could easily create a race with a huge bonus to all craft skills, and no other benefits; mathematically it is balanced, but obviously the race is worthless in terms of actual gameplay. One of the main points of contention I have with the FP system is Yaba's "worst case" methodology. In other words, an ability that allows the player to select one of several options is priced the same as the highest-priced of those options. I argue that there is an extra benefit in selection; that "Pick A, B, or C, where C is most expensive" is worth more than simply "You get ability C" because you get to select an ability that is always going to be beneficial for your character, whereas even an expensive preselected ability will sometimes be worthless because it addresses a situation that rarely arises. (For example, bonus feat Endurance for a wizard, or a Hide bonus for a cleric.) Moving on to the Kobold, that's easily explicable -- kobolds get two abilities, speed and natural armor, that are very expensive in the FP system, and suffer from racial bonuses that don't match their weaknesses. I personally think base speed bonuses that result in a speed of 30 or less should get a price break, because most PC races have speed 30 -- being lower than that represents a penalty even if it's "normal" for your size category. A higher speed than is "normal" for your size is only negating that penalty until you catch up. For example, a small race with speed 30 should pay 4 FP for it instead of 6; -4 is the FP return for a -10 foot speed penalty (as dwarves have), which is part and parcel of being Small. Removing that -4 FP penalty, then, should cost you 4 FP, rather than 6. On Natural Armor, I just think small amounts of NA are too expensive. Maybe there's some math back there to support the cost, but I haven't seen it, and +1 NA seems overpriced at 6 FP (nearly half your point allotment at ECL +0). More to the point, though, the Kobold's benefits simply don't fit its ability scores. A race with major physical penalties shouldn't get into melee if he can help it, but natural armor and decent speed tend to suggest that he should be running around in close proximity to other creatures. The FP system doesn't care whether your abilities are synergistic or not; it's only a rule of thumb, and does not (and should not) consider how various abilities interact. Anyway, I'm not sure I see how changing the cost of skill bonuses would have anything to do with the Kobold; he's only got 2 FP in skill bonuses anyway. I think the central problem with the feature point system is the EXTREME undervaluation of ability score adjustments, as if you take all the things that ability scores do (skill adjustments, saving throws, to hit, armor class etc. etc.) in almost every case those things (if given out seperately) will cost VASATLY most FPs than the ability score boost.I suspect this may be intentional. It's usually more appropriate for a race to have a naturally high dex or str than to have a bunch of skill bonuses and attack bonuses, which would represent training or natural affinity. If the racial modifiers represent truly RACIAL abilities, it makes sense to apply a price break to ability scores. It's easier to get benefits from racial biology than from specific training or a "natural knack". In any case, I don't think the costs are way out of balance. Ability scores give lots of bonuses, but only some of those bonuses really apply to any given class. You get hte bonus, but if it doesn't synergize with your class abilities, nobody really cares. It doesn't make any sense and results in a lot of silly things popping up in the FP system (like half-elves and kobolds not showing up as weak and my silly example about the overpowered race with -2 stats and +1 to every skill).What do half-elves have to do with ability score costs? They have no such modifiers.
Rerecros 10-13-06, 07:41 PM	Something I've noticed. For 4 FP you can get +1 dodge everything to AC. Also for 4 FP you can get +2 dex, which provides the exact same bonus, plus a lot more. The cost should be cut in half, along with all other AC and attack bonuses.
Keenath 10-13-06, 08:25 PM	Something I've noticed. For 4 FP you can get +1 dodge everything to AC. Also for 4 FP you can get +2 dex, which provides the exact same bonus, plus a lot more. The cost should be cut in half, along with all other AC and attack bonuses. Yeah, I mentioned in the previous post (and before that, really) that AC seems to cost too much. You make an excellent point, though; I hadn't really thought of it that way before, but you're right. AC (and attacks, as a flipside), Speed, and Extra Arms are the points where I really see an issue.
Rerecros 10-13-06, 10:11 PM	I've never found small races to be in the same league as medium ones. Whith what I just said in my previous post, +1 attack and AC does not balance out with 20' speed and crappy weapons that cost just as much as good ones. They can carry less and are screwed in most actions in combat. +4 to hide is balanced out by -4 to intimidate.
Yuri_Zhivago 10-13-06, 10:21 PM	I've evaluated three races which I built for a homebrew CS, but there are a few small gaps in point values: some of the qualities I've given them (and some of the restrictions on some of those abilities) simply aren't valued. I'm going to post my evaluation (the abilities are watered down to an extreme point: I'll probably have explaining to do) and hope someone can (pretty please) note my errors and point out my oversights. 1 •+2 STR, -2 WIS (1pt) •Darkvision (2pt) •Pride: -4 on 8 stan skills, 1 skill-set w/ slight restriction, penalty on some saves w/extreme restriction (-20pt) •Extra Arms [2]: Climb bonus when used, extra weapons (18pt) •Acclimated: LATER 2 •+2 CON, -2 INT (1pt) •Increased speed: (6 pt) •Tail: skill bonuses [3 stan], nat. weapon (11pt) •Hold Breath: as lizfk in MM (N/A) 3 •+2 WIS, -2 CHA (1pt) •Empathy: +2 on 3 stan skills, w/ restrictions (1.5pt) •1 SLA auto, 3 w/ requirement 14 WIS (2) Yuri
Keenath 10-13-06, 10:51 PM	I've never found small races to be in the same league as medium ones.Tend to disagree with you, there... Whith what I just said in my previous post, +1 attack and AC does not balance out with 20' speed and crappy weapons that cost just as much as good ones.I've found that 20' speed is not typically an issue, for either smalls or dwarves, unless you're small and wear heavy armor. With the +1 size bonus and a strength penalty, smalls generally don't have any lower on their attack roll in melee, and are at an advantage in ranged combat. And small weapons aren't "crappy"; they deal 1 less damage on average. That really isn't a big deal. With the strength thing, they deals -2 damage in melee and -1 at range. That's not exactly crippling.
Rerecros 10-13-06, 11:31 PM	Not exactly crippling, but they do get the short end of the stick, so to speak. They should get some extra FP. Now on another topic... What is the cost of alignment subtypes? and the Azer's heat ability?
Goldrak 10-14-06, 12:28 PM	Hi! Just having some trouble with FP given to a race and need some help: Fey [3 FP ??] +2 charisma, -2 constitution [1 FP] Medium [0 FP] Land 30 [0 FP] Low light vision [1 FP] SLA - 1 druid level 1 spell per day as a level 1 caster. [4 FP ??] Weapon Familiarity: May treat elven Lightblades, elven Thinblades and elven Courtblades as martial weapons, rather than exotic weapons. [1.5 FP] +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the animal type [1 FP] +2 Move Silently, Hide, Handle Animal and Survival [2 FP] Total 13.5 FP Questions: Is Fey type worth 3 FP? It basically gives you immunity to humanoid and animal spells. A level 1 SLA is worth 4 FP on a fixed level right? What if the spell wasn't fixed but choosen at level one and remained the same from there on? What if the spell could by choosen each day?? What if the spell was cast not as a level one caster but of the casdter level? Thanks Goldrak
pheonixfrostmourn 10-14-06, 09:30 PM	1st off: feature points rock! i do have some questions with things i either didn't find in the charts, or just can't seem to figure out on my own. what would the cost of the following abilities/features be? 1] a breath weapon (for instance any 1 of the 1/2 dragons from the MM) useable x3/day. 2] a +4 bonus to initiative. 3] ability to cast spell as and adept of your character level. also, if this ability is given to a creature with 4 racial hitdie, would it qualify for the delayed bonus(since it doesn't actually apply until they take a class level, thus if this race ends up being ECL 7(4HD+3LA) is technically delayed by 7 levels? 4] this configuration of natural attacks: 2 claws[1d4 each], bite[1d6], and tail slap[1d6]. claws are always primary attacks, bite & tail slap are always secondary attacks. 5] racial penalty (haven't desided how severe yet, probally -1 or -2)to attack & damage rolls when using any manufactured weapons. any help would be apreciated, as i'm hoping to have this race finished by next weekends game session.
Carnor_Jax 10-14-06, 10:14 PM	What would the FP be for these abilites? Shadow Jump 100-ft/day Note: may only Shadow Jump once a day, even if you do not go 100ft. When you use shadow jump you become fatigued, if you are fatigued you become exhausted, if you are exhausted you become unconscious. Undying: Diehard as a bonus feat. When you reach -10 you become unconscious instead of dead. Upon reaching -50 a you are considered as dead. You can no longer be healed and must be brought back by a ressurection, true ressurection, limited wish, wish, or miracle. If you are below -10 and the sun rises you immediately die and cannot be brought back to life by anything except for a wish or miracle.
Boshi 10-15-06, 09:53 AM	Something I've noticed. For 4 FP you can get +1 dodge everything to AC. Also for 4 FP you can get +2 dex, which provides the exact same bonus, plus a lot more. The cost should be cut in half, along with all other AC and attack bonuses. Exactly and this applies across the board. If you break down the ability scores and look at what they do then the sum of all of those things (bonuses to saves etc. etc.) cost VASTLY more than a bonus to that ability score. I suspect this may be intentional. It's usually more appropriate for a race to have a naturally high dex or str than to have a bunch of skill bonuses and attack bonuses, which would represent training or natural affinity. If the racial modifiers represent truly RACIAL abilities, it makes sense to apply a price break to ability scores. It's easier to get benefits from racial biology than from specific training or a "natural knack". I don't follow you here at all, please rephrase. it is not significantly more interesting than either of its progenitor races. It is also a good bit weaker in 99% of cases. I've never found small races to be in the same league as medium ones. Unless you're a caster.
Kage_no_Neko 10-15-06, 10:38 AM	Unless you're a caster. But not everyone wants to be that gnome illusionist, or kobold sorcerer, or even a rogue, their other good class. Now part of this is feel. No one expects the gnome barbarian to be as tough as the half-orc barbarian; but while I can see the gnome's speak with animals (burrowing mammals) ability to be useful to such barbarians, in a world where gnomes are a race of barbarians the other spell-like abilities do not make sense. To me it seems that while most of the large races are relatively generic when it comes to character class (the half-orcs being the exception), the smaller races seem destined to only be casters or rogues. Now remember that I am basing this on feel more than stats, a gnome barbarian with its +2 to Con and bonuses against giants and goblinoids would actually play quite well.
Keenath 10-16-06, 11:24 AM	Exactly and this applies across the board. If you break down the ability scores and look at what they do then the sum of all of those things (bonuses to saves etc. etc.) cost VASTLY more than a bonus to that ability score. I don't follow you here at all, please rephrase.I'm saying it's possibly intentional that ability scores are cheaper than their component parts, because that encourages racial abilities to center around ability scores and, other than that, buy only what is necessary to define the race. It is preferable to give a race an extra +2 Dex than to piecemeal the abilities that +2 Dex confers. In fact, I think the ability score SHOULD get a price break, because otherwise it's far too cheap to make a min-maxed race. If +2 Dex cost you a lot of points, you could dump that and buy +4 or +5 to ranged attacks, which is really not the intent of the system. It is also a good bit weaker in 99% of cases. Not to drag this into a half-elf debate, but how so? Comparing H.Elf to Elf -- same sleep and enchantment bonuses; same LLV. The elf gets a couple weapon proficiencies that only matter to a small number of classes (that is, those without the proficiencies who still have the BAB to be decent with a weapon: Cleric, Druid, and Rogue. Bards gain Longbow, for whatever that's worth, and the 1/2 BAB types might like the longbow at very low level, but aren't going to care for long). The elf's autosearch is often useless past very low level, due to a small search bonus -- unless Search is a class skill, the half elf won't be signficantly worse off for lacking it. There are a total of +3 less sensory skill bonuses, and a +4 to other skills. In addition, favored class: any is useful in many cases, if you plan on multiclassing. From a strictly mechanistic standpoint, the half-elf isn't much worse off than an elf. If he's weaker, it's not significantly weaker; he essentially is down by an autosearch (normally useless) and maybe some proficiencies, and up by one skill point and a multiclassing bonus. In my games, we've made a minor change to the half-elf in removing the Diplomacy and Gather Info skills, and adding "pick any one of the +2/+2 skill feats (like Stealthy, Deft Fingers, or whatnot) as a racial bonus feat". If they really want the Diplo/GI bonuses, I guess they can have that instead, though most people would prefer either Investigator or Negotiator.
Goldrak 10-16-06, 11:58 AM	Hi! No comments on my questions on post #390 (the last on page 13)? Thanks Goldrak
Kage_no_Neko 10-16-06, 05:38 PM	How about comments on my Spirit Child template (#379)? And a question about templates, do you add points for the average character type. For example, should the spirit child template I created have a FP cost for a human added in since that is the "average" race it will be added to?
Carnor_Jax 10-16-06, 09:33 PM	What would the FP be for these abilites? Shadow Jump 100-ft/day Note: may only Shadow Jump once a day, even if you do not go 100ft. When you use shadow jump you become fatigued, if you are fatigued you become exhausted, if you are exhausted you become unconscious. Undying: Diehard as a bonus feat. When you reach -10 you become unconscious instead of dead. Upon reaching -50 a you are considered as dead. You can no longer be healed and must be brought back by a ressurection, true ressurection, limited wish, wish, or miracle. If you are below -10 and the sun rises you immediately die and cannot be brought back to life by anything except for a wish or miracle. Any comments.
Keenath 10-17-06, 10:06 AM	Said it once before, but: At least give it a shot on your own before you post and start begging for comments. Use the document, and when you post, list what you think each ability is worth, or note that a particular ability is escaping you. Don't just toss it up and say, "HEY! Somebody do my work for me!" There's enough discussion and examples on this thread by now that anyone ought to be able to do most of the basic work.
Goldrak 10-17-06, 10:16 AM	Said it once before, but: At least give it a shot on your own before you post and start begging for comments. Use the document, and when you post, list what you think each ability is worth, or note that a particular ability is escaping you. Don't just toss it up and say, "HEY! Somebody do my work for me!" There's enough discussion and examples on this thread by now that anyone ought to be able to do most of the basic work. Hi! Post #390 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10356355&postcount=390) :D Thanks Goldrak
Keenath 10-17-06, 10:57 AM	Is Fey type worth 3 FP? It basically gives you immunity to humanoid and animal spells.Yup. Any type other than humanoid or animal costs 3 FP and grants that immunity. Any other type benefits are covered by other costs. A level 1 SLA is worth 4 FP on a fixed level right?Maybe, see below. What if the spell wasn't fixed but choosen at level one and remained the same from there on?You mean like "select one cantrip"? Same cost; Yaba uses a 'worst case scenario' method -- FP cost of a choice is equal to the cost of the option with the highest value. Thus, the cost of a choice between three equal-valued options is the same as any one option alone. I think the flexibility should be worth something, but I didn't write the system. What if the spell could by choosen each day?? I'm not sure, that isn't really something you ever see. A similar option you do see occasionally is "1/day X or Y or Z" -- three spells, and you can use any one, but only one per day. Dunno what it'd cost, though -- probably half a point or 1 point for each additional option. What if the spell was cast not as a level one caster but of the casdter level?The description of SLAs says, "If no caster level is specified, the caster level is equal to the creature’s Hit Dice." I'm not sure which version is the one Yaba uses as his base "SLA" cost; I suspect it's that CL=HD type, but he doesn't seem to give Gnomes a price break for being stuck at CL 1, so I can't say for sure. Maybe he doesn't consider the differences great enough to bother with making different costs. I don't know.
Goldrak 10-17-06, 11:03 AM	Hi! Ok, thanks!! Goldrak
Keenath 10-17-06, 02:40 PM	1] a breath weapon (for instance any 1 of the 1/2 dragons from the MM) useable x3/day.I'd probably calculate it relative to a spell. Figure out what spell level is appropriate, maybe tack on a few extra points for the fact that there's no AOO or components -- and triple it for 3/day. That should probably work. 2] a +4 bonus to initiative.That's the Improved Initiative feat as a racial bonus feat. Basic feat, 3 FP. (Same cost even if it's a racial bonus instead of a feat, by the way, the differences are not really significant.) 3] ability to cast spell as and adept of your character level. also, if this ability is given to a creature with 4 racial hitdie, would it qualify for the delayed bonus(since it doesn't actually apply until they take a class level, thus if this race ends up being ECL 7(4HD+3LA) is technically delayed by 7 levels?You don't get any benefit for LA; that's not a 'delay'. Delay means "levels you go without this after you start playing". If you have it when you start (at 1st level), you aren't getting a delay benefit. The player isn't going-without, is he? And as for racial HD: They're included when you say 'character level'. For the sake of clarity, all the similar abilities in the game say "Hit dice" instead of "character level". I don't know what Adept caster levels cost; the doc gives costs for Sorcerer casting, but not Adept. I imagine it'd be something like 3/4 the cost of Sorc, or something like that. 4] this configuration of natural attacks: 2 claws[1d4 each], bite[1d6], and tail slap[1d6]. claws are always primary attacks, bite & tail slap are always secondary attacks.By default, there is no price difference between primary and secondary natural attacks. I could disagree with this, but I'll stick to the document for now. Natural weapons cost Max damage+Min damage+1, and then subtract 5 if you give up the natural weapon when using a weapon, such as a Slam or Claw (minimum 1 point). So in this case: the two claws cost 1 FP each, the bite costs 8, and the slap 8. Total 18 FP. 5] racial penalty (haven't desided how severe yet, probally -1 or -2)to attack & damage rolls when using any manufactured weapons.A generic penalty to attack is -4 (for a -1 penalty) or -7 (for a -2 penalty). I'd reduce the point return by 2 because of the natural-weapon exception, leaving -2 or -5.
Keenath 10-17-06, 02:45 PM	Shadow Jump 100-ft/day Note: may only Shadow Jump once a day, even if you do not go 100ft. When you use shadow jump you become fatigued, if you are fatigued you become exhausted, if you are exhausted you become unconscious.Dimension Door as a 1/day SLA, and subtract 1 or 2 points for the fatigue. You might as well make it a simple SLA 1/day DDoor and avoid all the extraneous rules. Undying: Diehard as a bonus feat.That's simple enough, 4 FP (basic feat plus one prereq). When you reach -10 you become unconscious instead of dead. Upon reaching -50 a you are considered as dead. You can no longer be healed and must be brought back by a ressurection, true ressurection, limited wish, wish, or miracle. If you are below -10 and the sun rises you immediately die and cannot be brought back to life by anything except for a wish or miracle.Pretty valuable -- this is virtual immunity to death for PCs unless they're immune to magical healing or something. The sunrise thing is not significant because fights never last more than a few minutes, and magical healing can easily have you at positives before there's any issue.
Kage_no_Neko 10-17-06, 06:07 PM	Said it once before, but: At least give it a shot on your own before you post and start begging for comments. Use the document, and when you post, list what you think each ability is worth, or note that a particular ability is escaping you. Don't just toss it up and say, "HEY! Somebody do my work for me!" There's enough discussion and examples on this thread by now that anyone ought to be able to do most of the basic work. Sure, I have no problems with the immunity and the stats (just included for completeness and my question about templates earlier), but I have no idea for the points for Spirit Step. Incorporealness has a FP cost of 175, but this is an extremely limited version of that ability (not always on, etcetera) so how much does it cost? What about Spirit Touch which gives an always on ghost touch ability to the spirit child? Or, spirit sight which matches nothing else on the tables remotely? Or Living Spirit, which is obviously a type of weakness/vulnerability, but nothing like energy vulnerability? You complain that some of us are just asking for help, and that most of this has been done before, but I have read this entire thread and I do not remember seeing things similar to these so I do not have something to work off of.
Yuri_Zhivago 10-18-06, 09:59 AM	Quote: Undying: Diehard as a bonus feat. That's simple enough, 4 FP (basic feat plus one prereq). Actually, it's two prereqs: Endurance is required for Diehard in the first place. Yuri
pheonixfrostmourn 10-18-06, 01:03 PM	I'd probably calculate it relative to a spell. Figure out what spell level is appropriate, maybe tack on a few extra points for the fact that there's no AOO or components -- and triple it for 3/day. That should probably work. That's the Improved Initiative feat as a racial bonus feat. Basic feat, 3 FP. (Same cost even if it's a racial bonus instead of a feat, by the way, the differences are not really significant.) You don't get any benefit for LA; that's not a 'delay'. Delay means "levels you go without this after you start playing". If you have it when you start (at 1st level), you aren't getting a delay benefit. The player isn't going-without, is he? And as for racial HD: They're included when you say 'character level'. For the sake of clarity, all the similar abilities in the game say "Hit dice" instead of "character level". I don't know what Adept caster levels cost; the doc gives costs for Sorcerer casting, but not Adept. I imagine it'd be something like 3/4 the cost of Sorc, or something like that. By default, there is no price difference between primary and secondary natural attacks. I could disagree with this, but I'll stick to the document for now. Natural weapons cost Max damage+Min damage+1, and then subtract 5 if you give up the natural weapon when using a weapon, such as a Slam or Claw (minimum 1 point). So in this case: the two claws cost 1 FP each, the bite costs 8, and the slap 8. Total 18 FP. A generic penalty to attack is -4 (for a -1 penalty) or -7 (for a -2 penalty). I'd reduce the point return by 2 because of the natural-weapon exception, leaving -2 or -5. thanks for thr tips. i'll see what i can come up with for the breath weapon.
Keenath 10-18-06, 03:13 PM	Actually, it's two prereqs: Endurance is required for Diehard in the first place. Yuri HUH? Endurance IS the prereq I mentioned. What's the second?
Keenath 10-18-06, 03:40 PM	I have no idea for the points for Spirit Step. Incorporealness has a FP cost of 175, but this is an extremely limited version of that ability (not always on, etcetera) so how much does it cost?Considering that it's much better than the Ninja (CAdv) capstone ability, this is going to be EXTREMELY expensive. Unless you're really looking for a LA 5+, I'd suggest finding a way to tone this down. First thing is to make it NOT an immediate action, which allows you to completely dodge your HD in spells and attacks every day, plus the ability to pass through virtually any barrier, thus bypassing a ton of the DM's tools. A longer duration with a 1/day limitation would be much preferable. What about Spirit Touch which gives an always on ghost touch ability to the spirit child?Again, super-expensive. That's TWO +3 abilities that apply to every weapon and armor you touch, including your fists. Unless you absolutely are sure you want a massive level adjustment, tone it back. (I'd suggest that it only works on weapons, natural weapons, and unarmed strikes, and only for 1 round per HD per day, or 1 minute per day, or something like that.) Or, spirit sight which matches nothing else on the tables remotely?Considering that it's basically a more limited See Invisibility that's always on, I didn't think it was that hard to calculate. It's an always on, personal range, 1st level spell, unless you want to let it reveal invisible creatures as well, which makes it a 2nd level spell. Or Living Spirit, which is obviously a type of weakness/vulnerability, but nothing like energy vulnerability?Given the miniscule number of "spirit" based effects outside of the d20 version of L5R? Like 1 or 2 points. You complain that some of us are just asking for help, and that most of this has been done before, but I have read this entire thread and I do not remember seeing things similar to these so I do not have something to work off of.Posting the stats and immunities that are easily found and failing to include the relevant costs suggests that you haven't even tried to do the work on your own. Either post the costs for what you CAN figure out, or don't post the parts you know how to calculate and just show the abilities you're asking about. Anyway, the race is manifestly superpowered, so I'm unlikely to bother; and I appear to be the only one posting anymore who is actually GIVING help, which makes the number of whining "What about MINE?!" requests get pretty grating.
Kage_no_Neko 10-18-06, 05:40 PM	Posting the stats and immunities that are easily found and failing to include the relevant costs suggests that you haven't even tried to do the work on your own. Either post the costs for what you CAN figure out, or don't post the parts you know how to calculate and just show the abilities you're asking about. I will be completely honest; in this case you are somewhat right. I have Yaba's file saved on my computer and having figured out their costs in an earlier version, before some changes were made, I did not bother to recalculate them considering the other abilities I did not know just so I could include them in this post. Pure laziness on my part. As for just showing the abilities I am asking about. I am sorry I forgot the question in my first post, but I did ask later about the costs for considering this a template to be applied to a person, and how the points cost would have to be handled. For that circumstance, listing all the abilities I am considering seems to be appropriate, as I do not remember templates being touched upon previously. As for you being the only one who helps anymore; seems like you might be right, sorry for taking so much of your time.
Yuri_Zhivago 10-18-06, 08:49 PM	Whoops, Keen, I mis-read you. Sorry! Yuri
Keenath 10-18-06, 09:05 PM	I did ask later about the costs for considering this a template to be applied to a person, and how the points cost would have to be handled. For that circumstance, listing all the abilities I am considering seems to be appropriate, as I do not remember templates being touched upon previously.I don't think templates have been covered, so the real answer is "I don't know"... I expect you could just calculate it the same as any other ability. I'm not sure how well it would work, though -- a 50-point template applied to a Human would be LA +2, but adding 60 points' worth of abilities to an ECL +6 creature (like, say, a PC ogre) would only push it up to ECL +7. Most templates gain power with HD, so they're pretty balanced for creatures with lots of racial HD, but big LA creatures, like pixies, would get their point costs all messed up. That said, I think probably most of the time just finding the template's point cost is good enough.
Kage_no_Neko 10-19-06, 07:35 AM	Most templates gain power with HD, so they're pretty balanced for creatures with lots of racial HD, but big LA creatures, like pixies, would get their point costs all messed up. That said, I think probably most of the time just finding the template's point cost is good enough. Thank you, that is what I have been thinking, but it is nice to get someone else's agreement. Now for a slightly quirky case. As the drow race has abilities (such as SR and the caster level for their spell-like abilities) which increase as the drow increases in class levels, or say a dragon character with the half-celestial/fiend template that advances as a dragon; how is the FP cost of the template changed in both these cases where the creature's benefits from the template (I know the drow is not a template but ...) improve as it advances? I ask because most templates are only really useful for creatures with high racial HD and I have tried to rewrite several of them to be more useful for humanoids (and therefore based upon CL). I know in most cases this is only useful for mid to high level characters, but I play those too.
Keenath 10-19-06, 10:45 AM	The FP document discusses how to calculate delayed features -- 2/3 of the cost for each 2 levels of delay. Mathematically, final cost = base cost*(2/3)^((level-1)/2). For a drow's SR, for example, you can calculate it as the cost at 1st level plus the difference in cost for each increase, with that difference run through the above equation. I set up an excel spreadsheet to quickly do this. Drow have SR 11+lvl, so 12 at 1st level, which costs a base of 28 FP. Stepping up to SR 16, each point of increase costs 3, modified by the delay equation. SR 17-24 costs 4 per point; 25-31 costs 5 per point. So, for each level, I run it though the delay factor (really easy in a speadsheet!) and sum the results; it comes up to just a bit over 15 FP. Add that to the base cost of 28, and the Drow's SR is worth a total of 43 FP. You can do the same for any ability. If you gain it at a particular level, the delay equation is fine. If you gain a little more every level, take the sum of the marginal costs modified by level and add that to the level 1 base cost. Where the hit dice come from doesn't seem to matter much. A dragon that takes half-fiend and then advances his hit dice is doing the same thing, relative to the template, as if he were gaining levels. Just calculate the template's abilities as delayed abilities.
Rerecros 10-20-06, 05:27 PM	Feats seem a little pricey, most feats, the ones with out pre-reqs anyways, are worth only 2 FP. Like +2 to 2 skills, or one very specific action gains a +4 bonus [1 FP] and it no longer triggers AoOs [1 FP]. The human's pick a feat should at most be double priced, 4 FP, making them quite underpowered at 8.5 total. Strength Melee attack rolls. [3 FP] Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon. In his post on large build, an average of one damage greater than normal is worth 9 FP. Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. These are the skills that have Strength as their key ability. [1.5 FP] Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like). [0.25 FP] So +1 strength worth 4 FP, broken down is worth 13.75 FP Dexterity Ranged attack rolls. [3 FP] Armor Class. [4 FP] Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. [4.5 FP] So +1 dexterity worth 4 FP, broken down is worth 11.5 FP It is quite obvious that stats are under priced and AC, Atk and Dmg is over priced.
Keenath 10-20-06, 05:54 PM	Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon. In his post on large build, an average of one damage greater than normal is worth 9 FP.Incorrect -- in his post on Powerful Build, he specifies that the 9 points is for a 1d6 damage increase (average 3.5), in going from a medium greatsword to a large greatsword. If 3.5 damage is worth 9 points, then +1 damage must be worth about 2.5 FP. (I suspect he actually rounded the average damage down, and it's actually 3 FP per point of damage). Taking the wose of the two values, 3 FP instead of 9, that would leave a total of 7.75 rather than nearly 14.
Kage_no_Neko 10-23-06, 01:00 PM	I have a question about abilities that add a static amount to damage dealt. For example, I have a template that has a form of smite. Now smite has two aspects: 1. A bonus to-hit based upon the user's charisma (easy enough as defined in the FP document as a general bonus to-hit based upon the templates average charisma bonus) 2. An increasing amount of damage based upon CL (a simple increasing FP cost using the delay function Keenath explained earlier, but what is the base price for a static increase in damage-which is different than an increase in damage dice, so I am not sure it is the same price as quoted in the previous post)? Next, the smite used by a paladin only works with melee attacks. How does this affect the price? My version is useful with ranged weapons, but only up to charisma modifier x 10 feet; what difference in price does that make? How about working with all melee and ranged weapons to any range? Last is the fact that the ability is limited in number of times per day. At first level you get it once per day (as opposed to usable at all times), so what is the cost reduction for that (perhaps using the "number of uses per day divided by 5" the DMG specifies for magic items)?
Keenath 10-24-06, 02:45 PM	2. An increasing amount of damage based upon CL (a simple increasing FP cost using the delay function Keenath explained earlier, but what is the base price for a static increase in damage-which is different than an increase in damage dice, so I am not sure it is the same price as quoted in the previous post)?I have to assume you meant HD rather than CL, though that's generally the same value for ECL +0 races. The price I mentioned in the previous post is probably correct for a flat one-point boost, because I was just using the cost based on the average damage of 1d6. (Follows a proof of the cost estimation for damage boosts:) We know from the DMG tables that a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage is equivalent to a +1d6 damage (average 3.5). Thus, a +1 non-BAB attack bonus should be worth the same as 2.5 damage. A +1 non-BAB bonus costs 6 points. Thus, a +1 damage should cost 6/2.5, or 2.4 FP. I round that up a bit to 2.5 FP, and that looks good to me. (Ends the proof.) 2.5 FP per level works out to a total value, from 1 to 20, of 13.38 FP, round down to 13 FP. Well, that looks good to me. Now, note that this is the cost for +1 damage per level on ALL your attacks, without an action. If it's a smite-like ability, which is usable only a certain number of times per day, that's going to cost significantly less, obviously. If it's really like smite, it's a standard action to activate (which includes the attack), and that'll cost less as well, since then even with infinite uses, that's less valuable than gaining the bonus on your weapon attacks. Next, the smite used by a paladin only works with melee attacks. How does this affect the price? My version is useful with ranged weapons, but only up to charisma modifier x 10 feet; what difference in price does that make? How about working with all melee and ranged weapons to any range?The price above works with any weapon at any range. If it's one or the other, the price is halved -- 7 FP. If it's ranged weapons and only within a significantly limited range (30 feet or less), I'd probably take one additional point off (that tends not to be a huge penalty). Last is the fact that the ability is limited in number of times per day. At first level you get it once per day (as opposed to usable at all times), so what is the cost reduction for that (perhaps using the "number of uses per day divided by 5" the DMG specifies for magic items)?And now we've rather come back to the beginning. All the above is kind of irrelevant, because the very best way to deal with something like this is to figure out an approximate spell level and cost it the way you would a spell like ability. I think I recall a spell that basically gives you a single smite when you cast it, but I can't remember where it is. Either way, it looks like about a 2nd level spell. That'd make it 7 points per daily use, which sounds about right to me. Maybe make it 8 because it's SU rather than SLA, and thus can't be interrupted.
Kage_no_Neko 10-25-06, 08:10 AM	I have to assume you meant HD rather than CL, though that's generally the same value for ECL +0 races. Nope, I meant CL. As I mentioned earlier I like to create templates useful for player characters/races with no racial hit dice, so most often I say total hit dice (racial and class hit dice) or just class levels when designing my templates :D. I think I recall a spell that basically gives you a single smite when you cast it, but I can't remember where it is. Either way, it looks like about a 2nd level spell. That'd make it 7 points per daily use, which sounds about right to me. Maybe make it 8 because it's SU rather than SLA, and thus can't be interrupted. 8 FP sounds good to me. My template has the character gaining a second smite at 5th CL, and another every 5 levels thereafter, which is easy enough to figure out using the delayed cost function. So the total final price, bonus to attack and all smites should all fall in line.
Kadasbrass 10-29-06, 11:07 AM	Okay I'm pretty sure this wasn't brought up before, but the stats for the Raptorans turns out to be on the WotC site. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050106b&page=1 So I'm wondering how to correctly calculate the FPs of their flying ability. Trying to make a LA 2 Half-Fiend/Celestial temp and decided this may be the way to go for flying ;) Of course the other option (and quickest I guess) is just measure the FPs of the two feats from RotD that grant the flying ability in the same method of the Raptoran. For the +10 bonus on jump checks, should that be treated as 5 fp, or should it be factored into (or out of) the flying ability? I ended up with the whole thing being worth about 11-12 fp. I took the fp for 40 flying (32), and subtraced the 5 points for a +10 bonus to a skill. Then took the remainder 27 and divided it by half and calculated 13.5 as a delayed feature for lvl 5 and 13.5 for a delayed feature of lvl 10 and got 11.66 fp (5 + 4.89 + 1.77). This comes out to about the same fp for two feats, and there are two books were a certain race or subtype and take two feats for flying ability (for dragonblooded in RotD and for planetouched in RoF). Did I calculate this correctly?
Sines 10-29-06, 09:00 PM	Hey I see nothing for Xephs. I'm kinda curious as to what Burst and free power points are worth. I'm playing one in my next game (As a non-psionic character, though I may eventually take Speed of Thought). Can I get a feature point rating for the speedy buggers.
Keenath 10-31-06, 02:38 PM	Hey I see nothing for Xephs.Oh, all right. * +2 Dexterity, -2 Strength 1 FP, as usual. * Darkvision 60' 3 FP * +1 racial bonus on saving throws against magic/psi 2 FP, same as dwarves * Naturally Psionic Basically same as Wild Talent as a bonus feat, but 1 pp instead of 2, so I cost it at 3 FP. * Burst Basically the Psychoportation power 3/day. This ability increases with level, but the difference is minimal because it takes a long time to actually show up. SLAs and PLAs are easy to calculate. In this case, 3/day Burst would be 12 FP. Total: 21 FP, overpowered for ECL 0, but very weak for LA +1. That said, Burst is very expensive for what it does. Longstrider has the same effect, but lasts for hours rather than a single round (though it requires a standard action to cast).
Sines 10-31-06, 04:02 PM	Hah, 21 FP all useful to me. Of course, the strength penalty does come into play for a Swordsage, but eh, its a small price to pay. And they are still better than Whisper Gnomes. LA + 0 my foot. BTW, Dwarves get +2 vs. Saves, unless by 'the same' you meant you just knocked half the FP off for half the bonus.
Keenath 10-31-06, 08:39 PM	BTW, Dwarves get +2 vs. Saves, unless by 'the same' you meant you just knocked half the FP off for half the bonus.Yes, "the same" as in "the same number of FP per point of bonus".
sigma999 11-01-06, 12:39 AM	Dear Keenath, theWhat, and company :ahem: I have a d20 classless character point system in progress. May I post my research on this subject of race design here? Just the section on races, for comparison. Some of my ideas might help discussions in this thread even though the "point totals" are slightly different. It seems the direction here is to calculate in terms of LA and ECL while I began from the ground up, but we have similar conclusions. If no response to this post I will assume a "no". Most Respectfully, Sig
Kage_no_Neko 11-01-06, 08:04 AM	I have a d20 classless character point system in progress. May I post my research on this subject of race design here? I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would not mind seeing a comparison system (be prepared for as much complaining as YabaTheWhat gets). Comparing the two systems should give us all new points of view on Yaba's system, and allow us to improve them both.
Anauroch 11-01-06, 08:50 AM	Why not start a new thread for it, though? This thread is quite full already... just post a link to your thread here and the 'FP-regulars' will jump over and have a look...
YabaTheWhat 11-01-06, 12:52 PM	I have a d20 classless character point system in progress. May I post my research on this subject of race design here? I would actually like to see that. Maybe I can give you a bit of input on it, as I had considered doing something along those lines for myself (but decided against it due to the sheer volume of the project and my limited free time). Members of this community who follow this project have probably noticed that I haven't participated in this thread for quite some time. While the events which caused me to set this project down have come and gone, I find that my time is still generally occupied. With neither free time to devote to this project, nor funding to make the endeavor worthwhile, it is unlikely that I will continue development on Feature Points.
Kadasbrass 11-01-06, 04:27 PM	Thanks for all you've done on Feature Points YabaTheWhat :D
sigma999 11-01-06, 07:52 PM	I cannot speak for anyone else, but I would not mind seeing a comparison system (be prepared for as much complaining as YabaTheWhat gets). Comparing the two systems should give us all new points of view on Yaba's system, and allow us to improve them both. :dancin: Why not start a new thread for it, though? This thread is quite full already... just post a link to your thread here and the 'FP-regulars' will jump over and have a look... These have been up for a while and the apparent lack of responses has destroyed my confidence in the subject for weeks... http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10072747 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10115522 http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10142769 .. but as of 10 minutes ago, reading your responses, I am elated. You just can't see cuz we're communicating through a BBS. :S I would actually like to see that. Maybe I can give you a bit of input on it, as I had considered doing something along those lines for myself (but decided against it due to the sheer volume of the project and my limited free time). Members of this community who follow this project have probably noticed that I haven't participated in this thread for quite some time. While the events which caused me to set this project down have come and gone, I find that my time is still generally occupied. With neither free time to devote to this project, nor funding to make the endeavor worthwhile, it is unlikely that I will continue development on Feature Points. Sadly, same here. I even read your LiveJournal... we have very similar schedules, but I have a large family and girlfriend on top of that :O Sometimes I spread myself too thin. As for the projects, mine is quite some years in the making, and I am startled by similarities in our designs! For instance, +2 Skill Points = 1 "FP" for you and an equal amount in "Character Points" with mine. From there you can calculate HP, as the 3.5 Ranger update proves that even by RAW a HD increase/decrease is exactly equal to 2 SP. This is a baseline from which everything else can be compared to... the cost of a feat (2 FP/CP on average), a supernatural ability, a racial trait.. everything. I'm cleaning up the "d20 Twilight" project btw. It looks sloppy now because that's what my paper notes looked like for years! :{ A friend and my girlfriend are giving pointers on simplicity but with feedback here it will be extremely user friendly. Yaba, I consider the best thing about your FP system was the chart of "immunities", a very tricky subject. It looks like much care was placed in comparing each immunity type to each other and I praise you for that. Very difficult subject! Below post contains some notes from my racial comparisons, something I have unfortunately put aside for right now as I write the "how to design a class" introduction. Enjoy!
sigma999 11-01-06, 08:08 PM	The basic rule for d20 Twilight characters is that each equivalent "level" is worth 15 Character Points, no more, no less. Every character, monster, blob, or bug also has a bonus 10 CP at Level 1. 14 of that 15 CP is for anything, 1 of that is only used for stats and feats instead of the chart for leveling up in the PHB (optional, but recommended) Also, XP is not used here. You gain small amounts of CP; your total determines character level (10, +15 for each level) not the other way around. For more info check the wiki http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/D20_twilight, I will update the basics soon, but any specific questions feel free to ask me right away. Leave a post on the wiki under Discussion, here, or on any of the forums, and I'll change the system for usability! === d20 TWILIGHT BASIC RACES, LA+0 === Racial Bonus Character Points: +10 Cultural or Background Bonus Character Points: subtract from the Character Bonus 10 CP if desired, usually a recommendation to take the listed Cultural properties HUMAN RACIAL bonus feat -3 +2 to any 1 stat +5 SP (multiplied at L1 by 4 for a total of 20 SP) Humanblood -1 sub –5 CULTURAL (optional: 1 regional feat of up to 3 CP) Total –5 Optional Total: –7 to –8 HALF-ELF RACIAL spot/listen/search +1 -1.5 low light vision -2 +2 vs enchantments -2 Elf blood –1 Humanblood -1 sub –7.5 CULTURAL a feat that gives +2 to 2 skills –2 (default: +2 Diplomacy and Gather Information) sub -2 total -9.5 Optional: add another +1 skill bonus to raise total to an even 10 CP, or remove Spot, Listen, or Search +1 for even 9 ELF RACIAL CON-2/DEX+2 spot/listen +2 -2 low light vision -2 curiosity: search +2/detect secret doors –2 sleep resistant (-4 hours needed each night, immune to sleep effects) –4 elfblood -1 sub –10 CULTURAL elf WP: rapier and longsword, bows –2 +2 vs enchantments –2 sub -4 total -14 DWARF RACIAL DEX-2/CON+2 slow +2 sturdy -2 darkvision 60 -3 +2 vs poison –1 dwarfblood –1 stonecunning –2 +2 vs spells/SLA -2 sub –7 CULTURAL dwarf WP: waraxe, throwing axe, urgrosh -2 +2 appraise and craft stone/metal -1 (-2 with +1 Uncommon defect) +1 hit orcs/goblins -1 +4 dodge vs giants -2 sub –6 total -13 HALFLING RACIAL STR-2/DEX+2 size small halflingblood -1 sub - CULTURAL GNOME RACIAL STR-2/CON+2 size small LLV -2 +2 listen -1 +2 craft (any, default is Alchemy) –1 gnomeblood -1 sub -4 CULTURAL gnome WP: all light hammers and picks, double pickhammer -2 speak with animals SLA 1/day -1 dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation 1/day each -1.5 +2 vs illusions -2 illusion DC +1 -1 +1 hit kobolds/goblinoids -1 +4 dodge vs giants -2 sub -7 total -11 HALF-ORC RACIAL INT-2/CHR-2/STR+2 +2 DV 60 -3 orc blood –1 humanblood -1 sub –2 CULTURAL orc WP: double axe, greataxe, spear, javelin -2 sub -2 total –4 === LA+1 AND HIGHER RACES === LIZARDFOLK STR+2 CON+2 INT-2 lizard tail 1/2 body height +4 bal jump swim, no lower armor -4 secondary tail slap 1d4 -1 semi-aquatic -2 reptile -1 sub -10 CATFOLK DEX+4 CHR +2 +10 speed -2 LLV -2 +2 listen, MS -2 +1 NAC -2 LA+1 sub -14 catfolk pounce feat -2 CENTAUR STR+8 DEX+4 CON+4 INT-2 WIS+2 -14 monstrous humanoid L4 (d8 BA1/1 SP2 R+W) -10x4 size large (long) -2 +20 speed -4 DV60 -2 NAC+3 -6 2 secondary hoof attacks 1d6 -4 LA+2 sub -32 (no HD) 4 monstrous HD: -40 GOLIATH STR+4 DEX-2 CON+2 monstrous humanoid powerfull build -3 mountain movement -2 acclimated -1 sense motive+2 -1 LA+1 sub-11 EDIT: wiki updated, looong overdue I know, I know... content here changed to match, yet still not complete EDIT 2: tweaked half-elf, elf, dwarf
sigma999 11-03-06, 03:11 PM	I have been thinking about creature types recently. You know, the kinds that give immunity to "humanoid" spells. My conclusion was that most creature types really aren't worth accounting a cost of any kind, in any point system. And why? Humanoids may have vulnerability to Charm Person and Hold Person, but many spells work ONLY for humanoids. Same goes for other types. Fey, for contrary example, may not be affected by the above spells but there sure as hell is an anti-Fey spell out there. And if any setting has too many Fey, out come the magics and Bane weapons. So, I believe racial immunities to select spells should not be included in pricing a race. Other types like Undead, however, are a different matter. Their immunities are of a different kind. They might be exempt from "person" spells, and not accounted for having those immunities, but the inherent immunity to stun/crits/poison/death magic and so on MUST be accounted for. These properties are near-universal and independant of any campaign setting (as in, almost all games will have these) How would one balance the advantages and disadvantages of Undead, ignoring the presence or abscence of clerics and other external influences? Compared to itself, how powerful is Undead? I expect it to have a negative balance, as in the cost in FP or CP will be greater than the drawbacks, such as "can't reproduce" and "does not heal naturally".
Keenath 11-03-06, 06:08 PM	I have been thinking about creature types recently. You know, the kinds that give immunity to "humanoid" spells. My conclusion was that most creature types really aren't worth accounting a cost of any kind, in any point system. And why? Humanoids may have vulnerability to Charm Person and Hold Person, but many spells work ONLY for humanoids. Same goes for other types.Are you trying to say that the positive humanoid or animal targetting spells offset the negative ones? Such as enlarge person versus charm person? I disagree. Defense is better than offense -- that is to say, it's worth more points to defend yourself than to give up a type of offense. That's because your enemy won't be necessarily prepared for your defenses, while your offensive boosts will always been selected correctly. A minotaur would never have any intention of using Enlarge Person, for example; he'd have a potion of some OTHER buff, while his opponent may have prepared a Dominate Person and now be unable to use it. The fact that you can't use all the Person buffs (of which there are few) is not that big a deal. Buffs are pretty situational anyway -- Enlarge on a wizard is just as worthless as enlarge on a minotaur. It works, but who cares? Anyway, I can't think of any buffs other than Enlarge that target only humanoids, while there are at least three offensive spells off the top of my head. Animals are about the same, as far as I can remember. Fey, for contrary example, may not be affected by the above spells but there sure as hell is an anti-Fey spell out there. And if any setting has too many Fey, out come the magics and Bane weapons. So, I believe racial immunities to select spells should not be included in pricing a race.What anti-fey spell is that? I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The fact that Bane and similar abilities can target Fey is irrelevant; one type is the same as any other. If an adventure focuses on a particular type of enemy, from demons to humanoids, bane is going to be more valuable against that type. This doesn't represent any difference between Humanoids and other types. Other types like Undead, however, are a different matter. Their immunities are of a different kind. They might be exempt from "person" spells, and not accounted for having those immunities, but the inherent immunity to stun/crits/poison/death magic and so on MUST be accounted for. These properties are near-universal and independant of any campaign setting (as in, almost all games will have these)Well, you DO pay for those anyway. You pay for all your immunities anyway. This doesn't seem to have anything to do with whether or not you should pay for immunity to Humanoid or Animal spells. By the way, note that you pay the 3 points for immunity to BOTH categories. If you're humanoid, you don't -- if you're animal, you don't. Anything else pays 3 points for the immunities. How would one balance the advantages and disadvantages of Undead, ignoring the presence or abscence of clerics and other external influences? Compared to itself, how powerful is Undead?What do you mean compared to itself? That's meaningless! "How big is a box compared to itself?" If you can explain what you mean, I might be able to respond. I expect it to have a negative balance, as in the cost in FP or CP will be greater than the drawbacks, such as "can't reproduce" and "does not heal naturally".Reproduction is meaningless, as it does not come into gameplay at all. They don't, but that's a flavor issue with no relevance to point values. Lack of natural healing is worth -3 FP, as listed on page 10. It's right there on the chart. Undead get that one, and the cost of all the other aspects of being Undead are worth much, much more. I believe Yabba posted the value of the undead type many pages ago.
sigma999 11-03-06, 06:43 PM	Are you trying to say that the positive humanoid or animal targetting spells offset the negative ones? Such as enlarge person versus charm person? I'm saying ignore the spells. Pretend they exist in a void, for a moment. Just compare racial abilities. What do you mean compared to itself? That's meaningless! "How big is a box compared to itself?" If you can explain what you mean, I might be able to respond. UNDEAD TYPE +X points worth abilities -Y points worth drawbacks subtotal = Z note: IGNORE ALL SPELLS/ITEMS/SITUATIONAL CONDITIONS The "In most settings a Cleric is present in a party to make encounters with Undead" statement in various forms many times and it is invalid in this instance. It is possible to seperate a race/type from a setting and this is what I want. How would you phrase that? Also, I saw this earlier: "Is Fey type worth 3 FP? It basically gives you immunity to humanoid and animal spells." My answer would be no. Don't price anything that grants immunity to type-specific spells because the limitations are inherent within those spells. And sadly... Reproduction is meaningless, as it does not come into gameplay at all. They don't, but that's a flavor issue with no relevance to point values. Lack of natural healing is worth -3 FP, as listed on page 10. It's right there on the chart. Undead get that one, and the cost of all the other aspects of being Undead are worth much, much more. I believe Yabba posted the value of the undead type many pages ago. Meaningless.. maybe you should reconsider your confidence in life, Keenath. Without reproduction a species can not continue; PCs slay them, extinct, the end. OK I didn't see it "on page 10". Right there. There is enough material here to fill a new PHB and it's easy to miss something. (edit) I'll look at the chart and search this thread. Thanks.
Rerecros 11-03-06, 07:11 PM	Alternate types should cost something, it gives better use of alter self and immunity to the most common forms of enchantment, which is a boon for characters with low will saves. A sorcerer has to wait till he's level 8 before he can charm aberrations, but even a level 1 sorcerer can charm people. things like life span and reproductive rates are meaningless in D&D, undead can overpopulate the planet, while dwarves can go extinct at the whim of the DM.
Keenath 11-04-06, 12:52 PM	I'm saying ignore the spells. Pretend they exist in a void, for a moment. Just compare racial abilities.Immunity to Humanoid-targetting spells is a racial ability just as much as "immunity to sleep" is for an elf, or "+1 on saves against illusion" is for a gnome. For that matter, it's in the same class as an undead's "immunity to all spells that have a fortitude save and do not affect objects". Why do you want to specifically ignore type-based effects? UNDEAD TYPE +X points worth abilities -Y points worth drawbacks subtotal = Z note: IGNORE ALL SPELLS/ITEMS/SITUATIONAL CONDITIONS Why are you trying to ignore one of those abilities, which is immunity to certain classes of spell? You're arbitrarily declaring that some abilities are 'situational' and others aren't. A bonus against poison is 'situational', isn't it now? If you never get poisoned the ability is worthless, but dwarves still get that added into the calculation for their FP total. And if you're ignoring all spells, what about the dwarf's +2 on saves against spells, or an elf's bonus against enchantments? And sadly...Reproduction is meaningless, as it does not come into gameplay at all. They don't, but that's a flavor issue with no relevance to point values.Meaningless.. maybe you should reconsider your confidence in life, Keenath. Without reproduction a species can not continue; PCs slay them, extinct, the end. I clearly indicated that it was meaningless with regard to the FP system. Since the FP system's only intent is to find what the balance is between player races, methods of reproduction ARE meaningless. It doesn't come into the game -- you don't ever roll dice to see if you reproduce, nor gain any benefit if you DO reproduce. Let me put it another way: Reproduction, in whatever method it occurs -- normal birth, spontaneous generation (as most undead), generation from the matter of an elemental plane, or direct creation by a deity -- happens 'off-screen'. It has no effect on the actual play of the game; the player controlling an undead creature is at no particular disadvantage due to the fact that he may not be able to reproduce normally. Thus, that factor doesn't come into the FP calculation. It's flavor text about what "undead" means, but it has nothing to do with the dice-mechanical functions of being an undead character.
Keenath 11-04-06, 01:04 PM	note: IGNORE ALL SPELLS/ITEMS/SITUATIONAL CONDITIONS The "In most settings a Cleric is present in a party to make encounters with Undead" statement in various forms many times and it is invalid in this instance. It is possible to seperate a race/type from a setting and this is what I want.If you're saying that you want to throw out the entire PHB spellbook and make a brand new world with brand new spells, that is your right. However, at that point you've completely left the arena of discussion, and you're well on your way to creating a new game entirely. I could agree that immunity to "Charm Person" wasn't worth points IF there were equally a list of "Charm Monstrous Humanoid", "Charm Elemental", "Charm Fey" and so forth available. However, there are not -- clearly, humanoids are more vulnerable than usual to certain effects. Removing that vulnerability, therefore, is worth FPs.
saidin0111 11-04-06, 02:18 PM	yeah, if the PHB spells are in the campaign, then they have to be figured into the type's value, and so does turning if clerics are allowed to exist or paladins, the whole point of different types is to make some more vulnerable to certain things and more resistant to others than the other types, or better at some things or worse than other types, if you throw out some of the immunities, then you aren't factoring in the entirity of the type, any value obtained in this way will not properly reflect the power of the type, judging anything in a vacuum is going to lead to unbalanced evaluations
sigma999 11-05-06, 12:33 AM	Perhaps. I'd rather have disagreement over topics such as these than agreement if I were to choose, anyway. It's bad to groupthink on fragile topics. I'll take what you wrote into consideration buuuut I actually am trying to invent a new way to play d20! That's probably the biggest difference between Yaba's FP system and mine; his is designed to respect the D&D game as-is, no alterations, whereas I am implementing changes to how prestiges operate (the y don't exist; you add feat-chains to the PC) and recently editing races based on this information: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20051007a This is genuine gold information.. from the WotC developers themselves, as well as a poll to members here, this proves that races such as half-elf just... plain.. suck. I'd like to address these issues more than recent discussions, but is Yaba's system capable of balancing the half-elf? Has the topic been addressed in the previous 9 pages? I'd love to know out of curiousity.
Keenath 11-05-06, 11:16 AM	I'd like to address these issues more than recent discussions, but is Yaba's system capable of balancing the half-elf? Has the topic been addressed in the previous 9 pages? I'd love to know out of curiousity. Been addressed several times. Upshot is this: The FP system doesn't care whether a racial ability is a benefit to many possible builds or few; it doesn't care if a skill bonus is widely applicable or narrowly; it doesn't care if a race has a large number of synergistic bonuses or a large number of random benefits that don't work together. Thus, you still need to use your own brain while analyzing an FP total. For example: Half elves show up as around 10 points, as I recall, which is the same as a human. However, the human's benefits are much greater than you'd expect from his point value, because they're guranteed to always benefit whatever build you're going for. Meanwhile, a Half-Elf has several small bonuses in areas that are only good for a small number of characters (as the article discusses). In my campaign, I've slightly modified the half-elf -- they are as-written, but instead of having +2 to Displo and GI, they get a bonus feat, which must be one of the +2/+2 skill bonus feats, such as Sneaky or Deft Fingers. That way, they still are getting a bonus to two skills, but it's two skills you're pretty sure will be useful to your character.
sigma999 11-05-06, 07:48 PM	In my campaign, I've slightly modified the half-elf -- they are as-written, but instead of having +2 to Displo and GI, they get a bonus feat, which must be one of the +2/+2 skill bonus feats, such as Sneaky or Deft Fingers. That way, they still are getting a bonus to two skills, but it's two skills you're pretty sure will be useful to your character. So, that's a feat. +2 to skills. And if you give such versatility, why not give a bonus feat?
Goldrak 11-06-06, 05:53 PM	Hi! I'm in doubt on how much these two abilities would cost under the FP system: Race X Rock Throwing (Ex): Adult Xs are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A X can hurl rocks (or projectiles of similar shape and weight) weighing 20 to 25 pounds each (Small objects) up to five range increments of 60 feet each. Each rock deals 1d6 + strenght modifier points of damage. [? FP] Rock Catching (Ex): A X can catch Small rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, a X that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action, the DC is 15 (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The X must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt. [? FP] These abilities are based on giant abilities but with half effect (damage, range, etc) Any toughts? Thanks
RoCkEtInToXiCaTe 11-06-06, 08:50 PM	I have two questions. How do you take in account for stat adjustments using the feature system for instance +4 str -4 dex +2 con -4 cha. and for the prehensile limbs, if each thing (Extra action, weapon, shield, spell component) applies do you add up all the FP's together? for instance 3 + 12 = 15 , 3 + 6 = 9, 3 + 9 = 12, and 3 + 18 = 21? = 37 Then if there's more than one (Say a four armed creature, natural two arms are it's natural arms, like a human would have thus you would only use this twice?) do you do it twice? So you'd add 15 + 15, 9 + 9, 12 + 12, and 21 + 21 = 74?
Keenath 11-07-06, 12:12 AM	So, that's a feat. +2 to skills. And if you give such versatility, why not give a bonus feat? Oh, you could easily just say half elves get the human bonus feat, sure. I just like the symmetry -- removing skill bonuses in exchange for skill bonuses, and a skill-feat combines both of the human's racial abilities in a single package. I think it makes the race more attractive to a variety of jobs (which is already suggested by FC: Any), but doesn't significantly change the balance of the race. Anyway, my tendency, if you were going to do something more drastic, would be to give half-elves the bonus skill point rather than a bonus feat, reflecting an enhanced learning ability (or possibly an ability to maintain focus on training) over normal elves. Meanwhile, half-orcs should get the bonus feat, reflecting a lower-than-average learning ability, but a sort of intuitive grasp. Half elves, then, continue to learn faster for their whole life, while a half-orc picks up a trick and hangs on to it.
Keenath 11-07-06, 01:09 AM	Rock Throwing (Ex): Adult Xs are accomplished rock throwers and receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls when throwing rocks. A X can hurl rocks (or projectiles of similar shape and weight) weighing 20 to 25 pounds each (Small objects) up to five range increments of 60 feet each. Each rock deals 1d6 + strenght modifier points of damage. [? FP]Well, that's two bonuses -- a +1 on attacks with one specific weapon, which is 1 FP, and what amounts to an exotic proficiency (similar to a dart with an extended range inc). Total of 3 FP. Rock Catching (Ex): A X can catch Small rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, a X that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action, the DC is 15 (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The X must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt. [? FP]Frankly, with all the limitations, I'd just make this 2 FP. It's similar to the 4 FP feat "Deflect Arrows", but much more limited -- requires a save, only works on one type of weapon, etc. How do you take in account for stat adjustments using the feature system for instance +4 str -4 dex +2 con -4 cha.You really should be able to work this one out on your own, since I explained in detail how to do it about two pages back. You look at the table on page 4 of the document and add up the point values for each score: +4 is worth 9 FP, +2 is worth 4 FP, and -4 is worth -5 FP. (Negatives do not fully offset positives because of the minmax factor -- that is, characters generally play to their strengths and try to cover for their weaknesses, so a race's high scores will influence its power more than its low scores.) Next, you look at your race's scores and locate the highest modifier. In this case, +4 is the highest. In the "Highest" column, +4 lists 3 FP. (You get charged a little extra for having any scores above +2.) Sum up those costs: 9+4-5-5+3 = 6 FP. and for the prehensile limbs, if each thing (Extra action, weapon, shield, spell component) applies do you add up all the FP's together? for instance 3 + 12 = 15 , 3 + 6 = 9, 3 + 9 = 12, and 3 + 18 = 21? = 37 Then if there's more than one (Say a four armed creature, natural two arms are it's natural arms, like a human would have thus you would only use this twice?) do you do it twice? So you'd add 15 + 15, 9 + 9, 12 + 12, and 21 + 21 = 74?Yep. You've got it. With one minor exception: Be careful of those "extra action" and "somatic component" things. Very few multiarm races have those powers, and they are strong. For example, let's say I have a four-armed race. I can hold four swords and attack with them, or replace any of them with items. This does not qualify as extra actions or spellcasting, despite the fact that I could drop weapon #3 or #4 and use that hand to gesture for my spellcasting. Now, if I can hold a pair of shortswords in arms 1 and 2 and make a full attack while simultaneously reloading a crossbow in arms 3 and 4, that's an Extra Action -- I'm taking a full action, and then also taking a move action at the same time. If I can full-attack with arms 1, 2, and 3, and simultaneously use arm 4 and my voice to cast a spell, that counts as "somatic component" -- I'm actually taking a full action plus a standard action at the same time. That said, in my opinion the extra limb rules are in dire need of an overhaul; they don't work properly. For example: What's a shield slot? You can only benefit from one shield bonus at a time, so why is there a point bonus for being able to carry more than one? More to the point, carrying a shield -- or ANY item -- in any given hand means GIVING UP the weapon that could possibly be in that hand. I suggest that the extra limb costs work more fairly this way: If the limb can hold weapons or shields (a full extra hand), 9 FP. If the limb can hold items but not weapons or shields (like a monkey's tail), 3 FP. Pay these costs for each extra limb. As a seperate rule unrelated to arms: If the creature can perform additional non-attack actions, such as loading a crossbow while full-attacking: 12 FP per extra action. If the creature can use this extra action to cast a spell or make attacks outside of the normal turn structure (such as making two attacks with a standard action): +18 FP per extra action. This method has the benefit of allowing this rule to cover non-arm-related functions, such as the Quickness ability of the Choker (also known as "3.0 haste"). Because he can attack or spellcast with the extra standard action, Quickness would be worth 30 FP.
Goldrak 11-07-06, 07:32 AM	Hi! Thanks Keenath, for the help. Goldrak :)
sigma999 11-08-06, 07:25 PM	Meanwhile, half-orcs should get the bonus feat, reflecting a lower-than-average learning ability, but a sort of intuitive grasp. Half elves, then, continue to learn faster for their whole life, while a half-orc picks up a trick and hangs on to it. If a GM is feeling more selective in how races are stereotyped in a campaign they could limit orcs and half-orcs to "Fighter Bonus Feats" only, for that gut-level instinct of combat. I'm still wondering about the power of those Forgotten Realms regional feats. If worked out in FP or CP they have a varying amount of power, like the revised Luck of Heroes granting +1 to all saves and AC. A bit too much. Some feats are very powerful, and some are weak (Dodge.. Endurance...) and it pains me to anticipate putting "exceptions" in any point-system for d20 that states: Most feats are X amount, but some are godly and some are crappy, so therefore some feats are X-1 and X+1. eew.. unknown variables. Yet, I believe that D&D humans, for all their versatility, get the short end of the shaft... as well as any part-human race. I'll poll my fellow gaming group to see what they think, if humans got yet ANOTHER regional feat on top of what they have now. Only the +2 to 2 skills regional feats, not much selection, but it's something to emphasize "human culture" like the dwarf bonuses against orcs and giants.
Lord_Gareth 11-12-06, 08:04 PM	Can I get an evaluation of the revision of my current race, the Dra'Konites? Racial Features: +2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, -2 Wis Medium: As medium creatures, Dra'Konites have no bonus or penalty associated with their size Humanoid Claws: Dra'Konite nails are roughly an inch long, very hard, and vry sharp, resulting in 1d4 slashing claws. Dra'Knite claws do not need trimming once they attain one inch in length, and if they lose their claws, a week or a Regenaration spell to re-grow. Until then, the claws cease to be effective. +2 to saving throws versus cold-based attacks and enviornments. Dra'Konites have a pulse that puts rats to shame. Darkvision 60 -or- Low-Light vision (player's choice). Dra'Konites have inherited the senses of their dragon and elven heritages, but individual Dra'Konites lean towards one or the other. Moody Eyes: Dra'Konites gain a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks and a -4 penalty on Bluff checks. They have a conditional -2 penalty on Intimidate checks (this penalty applies only if the Dra'Konite isn't really angry or doesn't really want to strong-arm the victim of the check). Dra'Konite eye color changes in accordance to their emotions; they literally show every feeling on their face. Limited Flight: Gliding (Ex): A Dra'Konite can use her wings to glide, negating damage from a fall of any height and allowing 20 feet of forward travel for every 5 feet of descent. Raptorans glide at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). Even if a raptoran's maneuverability improves, she can't hover while gliding. A raptoran can't glide while carrying a medium or heavy load. If a raptoran becomes unconscious or helpless while in midair, her wings naturally unfurl and powerful ligaments stiffen the wings. The raptoran descends in a tight corkscrew and takes only 1d6 points of falling damage, no matter what the actual distance of the fall. Flight (Ex): When a Dra'Konite reaches 5 Hit Dice, she becomes able to fly at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability). A raptoran can't fly while carrying a medium or heavy load or while fatigued or exhausted. Raptorans can safely fly for a number of rounds equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum 1 round). They can exert themselves to fly for up to twice as long, but then they're fatigued at the end of the flight. Raptorans are likewise fatigued after spending a total of more than 10 minutes per day flying. Because raptorans can glide before, after, and between rounds of actual flight, they can remain aloft for extended periods (even if they can only use flight for 1 round at a time without becoming fatigued). When they reach 10 Hit Dice, Dra'Konites have enough stamina and prowess to fly for longer periods. They can fly at a speed of 40 feet (average maneuverability), and flying requires no more exertion than walking or running. A raptoran with flight can make a dive attack. A dive attack works like a charge, but the raptoran must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. A raptoran can make a dive attack only when wielding a piercing weapon; if the attack hits, it deals double damage. A raptoran with flight can use the run action while flying, provided she flies in a straight line. Languages: Dra'Konites speak Common, Elven, and Draconic. They also have a semi-secret language called Drank, which is a wild mixture of the other three languages they speak. A non-Dra'Konite (or a person who hasn't lived with Dra'Konites for ten or more years) must be able to speak Common, Elven, and Draconic in order to learn Drank, and even then must make a Speak Language check (DC 25) to completely understand it. Favored Class: Sorcerer. Dra'Konites are inherantly magical and many follow the Sorcerer's path.
Keenath 11-13-06, 02:56 PM	+2 Dex, +2 Cha, -2 Con, -2 Wis: 2 FP Claws: 2 claws, 1d4 each: 2 FP +2 saving throws vs cold: 1 FP Darkvision 60 -or- Low-Light vision (player's choice): 3 FP or 1 FP. (I strongly suggest you pick one and stick to it. Darkvision is much better than LLV in virtually every circumstance. Give them both if you like, but make up your mind.) Moody Eyes: +2 Diplomacy, -4 Bluff, conditional -2 Intimidate: 0 FP (I'd suggest dumping that conditional Intimidate penalty, as it is worthless. Actually, I'd suggest dumping this ability entirely, but that's me.) Flight: Gliding: 3 FP 5 Hit Dice fly 40 (average), 10 minutes per day with limited consecutive rounds: 16 FP delayed 4 levels = 7 FP 10 Hit Dice fly 40 (average): 16 FP delayed 9 levels = 3 FP Total: 18 or 21 FP, depending on vision selection Result: Overpowered +0 or greatly underpowered +1 However, note that Raptorans clock in at around 23 FP (underpowered LA +1), with the same sort of flight you're using (you even forgot to remove the name 'raptoran' from some of the text), and they don't seem to actually come out as overpowered in a real game. This is partly because large jump bonuses just aren't worth that much in terms of game power, and partly because winged flight is a powerful ability, but more situational than you'd expect (largely due to the inability to hover). For your race, I'd suggest losing some of the less interesting abilities like the eyes, and adding a penalty of some sort -- for example, removing their charisma bonus. Alternatively, you could make Moody Eyes a strictly penalizing ability, because even diplomacy involves a certain amount of concealment of motives. However: each -2 on a skill is only worth -.5 FP (half as much as an equivalent bonus is worth), and a conditional penalty is only worth half of that amount. (Thus, your conditional -2 Intimidate above is worth -.25 FP, which is as close to nothing as makes no difference.) It would require some major penalties to be worth anything, and you'll still have players trying to hide their eyes with goggles and such before trying to bluff -- which defeats the purpose of the penalty. In any case, I'd strip off two or three points. You'll still be a little into the "overpowered +0" range, but not badly.
Lord_Gareth 11-13-06, 03:31 PM	I'll drop the darkvision for Low-Light vision. I like Moody Eyes the way I have it, especially since it goes with the racial Fluff. They're a very diplomatic race, and when they go into negotiations, they don't lie. Lieing is, in their experience, a Bad Plan.
Sylvaroth 11-13-06, 05:26 PM	Consider to drop the Cha bonus for bonuses on Cha based skills. That may lower the total points to a more or less balanced LA+0. Just my :twocents:
Davith Bothain 11-13-06, 07:40 PM	After spending the better part of a day reading the entirety of this thread (and having my eyes cross quite a few times from all the numbers), I embarked upon the endeavour to re-evaluate all the core races using the Feature Points system (given the great leaps in knowledge since my last attempt a week or two ago). For the most part, they are reasonable. However, two, the dwarf and the gnome, have created some problems. By the pdf, from my understanding, a dodge bonus against a specific type of foe is essentially equal to 3 FP per point of AC. I pray I am misunderstanding this, as this gives dwarves and gnomes an extra 12 FP apiece, bumping them both into the low- to mid-LA +1 territory. If this is incorrect, please enlighten me, and if not, mayhap we need rework things so that two of the common races of the game are not nerfed.
sigma999 11-15-06, 07:15 PM	Even without any Feature or Character point systems I can tell that dwarves and gnomes (including elves!) are more powerful than your average sentient biped. In D&D, that's just the way the s*** hits the fan. We can suggest changes but doesn't mean anyone pays attention, and the "Underpowered Half-Elf Fix" threads still keep coming..
YabaTheWhat 11-16-06, 08:16 AM	By the pdf, from my understanding, a dodge bonus against a specific type of foe is essentially equal to 3 FP per point of AC. That's not vs a specific type of foe. It's vs one target at a time. Think of the Dodge feat, but without it being a feat (or the head of a feat chain).
Davith Bothain 11-16-06, 04:45 PM	Double post, blast it all...
Davith Bothain 11-16-06, 04:46 PM	That's not vs a specific type of foe. It's vs one target at a time. Think of the Dodge feat, but without it being a feat (or the head of a feat chain). ...So, then, the total would be brought four points even higher... This does not bode well. I am, indeed, a fan of this system, but this would seem to be a glaring flaw. These are two races which, although quite adept at filling a number of roles and bloody perfect at a few key positions, have their power spread out enough so that the average character is unlikely to see all their abilities come into play with any real frequency. This aside, these are solid, well-structured races which I simply refuse to see graded so harshly. If there is anything I can do to help solve this problem, by all means, alert me.
havenscloud 11-17-06, 03:36 PM	I would just like to say this is a great system with surprising depth and accuracy despite whatever small flaws it may possess, and I'd like to thank Yaba and others on this thread for all the time you've put into it. As a noob homebrewer this information has been invaluable to my understanding of race creation, and I thank you. That all probably sounds a bit more grovely than I intended, but I have some races I'm tweaking and would like to get some feedback on where some of my features would fall in the FP scale before I try to balance the races themselves. If anyone could give them a look, that would be much appreciated. Ready go: Dragon Heart: aimed at a LA +1 humanoid with draconic heritage. It's a one time death save where if a will save (DC 20 - CL) is passed the first time they would be killed, the character is forced to take the form of an adult red dragon with full health. The dragon is treated as a monster (DM controls) and focuses attack on the offender, but will attack anything that gets in the way. This effect lasts until the opponent dies or one full day passes, and the character awakens in humanoid form with full health. This ability can never be used again (feats or PrCs may change that). Sun Child: aimed at a LA 0 plant person. Gives them fast healing in direct sunlight (possibly according to Con mod, but that might be too much) maybe at 1 or 2 hp per round, halved if it's overcast. Store Power: same plant race. At will they can forefit their fast healing to instead store up the energy in reserve (most useful at full HP) to a max of CL + Con mod. This energy can be release in a melee attack for additional damage or used for sustanence in a prolonged absence of sun. While they do not consume food, they must process CL/2 energy per day to survive (a full store of energy would last two days underground). Giant Growth: same plant race. There are mecha in my campaign, but they are only useable by humanoids. This ability makes up for that fact. Once per day the character may grow into a gargantaun tree monster (think LOTR ent, no stats on the alternate form yet) and may stay in that shape for a number of rounds equal to Con mod. Becomes winded like a barbarian after reverting back. Divine Stigma: aimed at a LA +2 race of angels banished from heaven and bear a mark on their bodies as punishment. If the mark is seen, bad things happen to the character and onlooker. All viewers must make a Will Save (DC10+1/2 CL+Cha mod) or be subject to one of the following effects for 1 + Cha mod. rounds. The DC is raised by 1 for each HD lower the viewer is than the character, and lowered 1 for each higher. The viewer also receives a +2 circumstance bonus if the stigma is glanced in peripheral vision or seen by reflection. Whenever this ability is activated, the character takes 1d10 of non-lethal damage for the cumulative HD of all creatures affected. Roll Effect -------+---------- DC + 5 shaken DC stunned DC - 5 paralyzed DC - 10 death This is a sight-based gaze attack and can only be seen properly within 30 feet. Sightless creatures, constructs, and undead are immune to this ability. Lunatic High: aimed at a LA 0 magical beast lupine race. Gives +2 attack, damage and AC at night. For that same race, was a conclusion reached on FP buyback for not having hands? Sensor: aimed at a LA +1 race of living constructs. Uses Int mod instead of Dex for ranged attacks, Dex penalty still applies. Statsis: same race. May shut down movement and attack functions to make internal repairs (fast healing 5 maybe?). Takes a full round to come out of, but may maintain a partial defense during. 30 walk speed, but can go 40 on all-fours. The pounce ability. The ability to change any appendange into any object (change self spell?). 2x damage to objects. +1 HP every level (Improved Toughness?) Also, im my campaign if all humanoids with sufficient skill can pilot a living construct mecha (comparable to an adult dragon), how much of a buyback should I give to races that cannot use them? These abilities grew out of interesting story abilities, so if they are horribly broken that is why. If they are too powerful, do you think some would be better suited as feats, class abilities, or from magical items? Thanks!
Rerecros 11-17-06, 05:59 PM	Costs for stat bonuses need to be overhauled. Mental bonuses simply shouldn't be given out to LA+0 races, as it is too obvious of a choice for spell casters. And mental penalties don't balance out Physical stats, as mental stats power spell casting and specific class features, but don't provide much of a universal benefit, especially charisma. Furthermore, if you break down the FP values of each stat you will see large discrepancies between what they cost, and what they provide.
Kage_no_Neko 11-18-06, 12:59 PM	Costs for stat bonuses need to be overhauled. Mental bonuses simply shouldn't be given out to LA+0 races, as it is too obvious of a choice for spell casters. And mental penalties don't balance out Physical stats, as mental stats power spell casting and specific class features, but don't provide much of a universal benefit, especially charisma. Furthermore, if you break down the FP values of each stat you will see large discrepancies between what they cost, and what they provide. This has been gone over many times. It is true that there are some issues (not least of which is the fact that with all the spellcasters out there, it seems that Charisma is the low end of the totem pole, so it always becomes a dump stat), but beyond that trying to say one stat is more valuable than another is nearly impossible. Sure, at low levels Dex seems more important than most others for many classes, but Str can be too. For spellcasters one or the other of the mental stats becomes more important at low levels. But both these pre-suppose a penchant for physical characters versus spellcasters. At higher values, especially for higher LA creatures with large stat bonuses, all the stats begin to even out (except Cha, again :rolleyes:) so making them all have the same value just makes more sense in the long run and easier at lower levels. I guarantee that if you posted a table listing different FP values for each of the stats at different levels of bonus, you would never hear the end of the flames on your choices. At least this way we can agree that it is not perfect, but better than most, and move on.
Kadasbrass 11-18-06, 01:42 PM	Penalties of ability scores in terms of their net effect, a penalty to charisma is weak. The only real harm it does is preventing a charisma based spellcaster from being effective with the race. Intelligence and Wisdom at least effect the number of skill points and will saves. Even strenght effects the limit you can carry (at higher levels this can be migated by getting ligther stuff, bags of holding, or making someone else hold stuff). I have no problem granting a bonus to metal stat. In my campaign, each ability score has at least 3 different races granting a bonus. I believe all of my races with a mental bonus have a -2 con. None of the 20 races I allow have a LA, and none have a minus to charisma.
Yaeri 11-20-06, 09:07 AM	I too had made six new races starting from the ability bonuses I wanted to have. With these six added to the core races, there were 2 races for each stat bonus. (One of the races had two bonuses, and two penalties)
Wayfarer 11-20-06, 12:56 PM	Let's say you have a species with some attribute modifiers (+2 Str, -2 Dex) and further have a LA +0 Template applied to that race, which gives the same positive modifier (+2 Str, -2 Con). How would you handle that from a balance perspective? What I've been assuming is that you pay for the most expensive possibility, and calculating the values based on the total after the template is applied. But that might end up undervaluing the template if it's ever applied to someone else.
YabaTheWhat 11-20-06, 02:03 PM	Sun Child: aimed at a LA 0 plant person. Gives them fast healing in direct sunlight (possibly according to Con mod, but that might be too much) maybe at 1 or 2 hp per round, halved if it's overcast.Please note that fast healing is already on the charts. Fast healing 1 is worth 20 FP. Let's say you have a species with some attribute modifiers (+2 Str, -2 Dex) and further have a LA +0 Template applied to that race, which gives the same positive modifier (+2 Str, -2 Con). How would you handle that from a balance perspective? What I've been assuming is that you pay for the most expensive possibility, and calculating the values based on the total after the template is applied. But that might end up undervaluing the template if it's ever applied to someone else.When using feature points, you evaluate the result, not the construction process. Templates do not have fixed level adjustments, because their value varies based on the creature to which they are applied.
sigma999 11-20-06, 02:17 PM	Hey Yaba (or anyone else with expertise on this subject) I'm curious but can't find the answer to my question on your PDF... How did you price the ability to cast a simple Cure spell, say, "Cure Light Wounds", once per round as a spell-like ability?
YabaTheWhat 11-20-06, 04:40 PM	How did you price the ability to cast a simple Cure spell, say, "Cure Light Wounds", once per round as a spell-like ability? You're not allowed. Cure light wounds is an instantaneous spell, and not an attack spell. This ability would either need to have a use/day cap, or would be regarded as Fast Healing 5 if useable only on the caster. Remember that, if left unchecked, an ability like this would basically provide unlimited out-of-combat healing for the entire party.
Ninetails Demon 11-20-06, 10:40 PM	When calculating the feature points for a large creature, do I need to count the points for reach, or do the penalties of being large counteract that? For a large creature with 10ft reach, would the FP be 25 then? Also, I cannot find FP for creature types, so does having creature type Giant or Outsider carry FP? Thanks! Edit: just found the notes at the bottom. For creature type, would I simply have to break it down using that chart? Thanks!
havenscloud 11-21-06, 09:19 AM	Please note that fast healing is already on the charts. Fast healing 1 is worth 20 FP. Sorry, Yaba, I realize this but since it's conditionaly and only useable in sunlight, should I take 2/3 off the price? About 7 then? Let me see if I can give these more of a stab. Dragon Heart: aimed at a LA +1 humanoid with draconic heritage. It's a one time death save where if a will save (DC 20 - CL) is passed the first time they would be killed, the character is forced to take the form of an adult red dragon with full health. The dragon is treated as a monster (DM controls) and focuses attack on the offender, but will attack anything that gets in the way. This effect lasts until the opponent dies or one full day passes, and the character awakens in humanoid form with full health. This ability can never be used again (feats or PrCs may change that).(8FP ? There is a Dragon Wild Shape feat, but I don't know what the requirements are, and I would imagine the one time use would drastically lower the price. Is there anything about death saves in the PDF?) Sun Child: aimed at a LA 0 plant person. Gives them fast healing 1 in direct sunlight, but is half as effective if overcast. (6 FP?) Store Power: same plant race. At will they can forefit their fast healing to instead store up the energy in reserve (most useful at full HP) to a max of CL + Con mod. This energy can be release in a melee attack for additional damage or used for sustanence in a prolonged absence of sun. While they do not consume food, they must process CL/2 energy per day to survive (a full store of energy would last two days underground). (4 FP? comparable to power attack?) Giant Growth: same plant race. There are mecha in my campaign, but they are only useable by humanoids. This ability makes up for that fact. Once per day the character may grow into a gargantaun tree monster (think LOTR ent, no stats on the alternate form yet) and may stay in that shape for a number of rounds equal to Con mod. Becomes winded like a barbarian after reverting back. (no idea here, some kind of wild shape?) Divine Stigma: aimed at a LA +2 race of angels banished from heaven and bear a mark on their bodies as punishment. If the mark is seen, bad things happen to the character and onlooker. All viewers must make a Will Save (DC10+1/2 CL+Cha mod) or be subject to one of the following effects for 1 + Cha mod. rounds. The DC is raised by 1 for each HD lower the viewer is than the character, and lowered 1 for each higher. The viewer also receives a +2 circumstance bonus if the stigma is glanced in peripheral vision or seen by reflection. Whenever this ability is activated, the character takes 1d10 of non-lethal damage for the cumulative HD of all creatures affected. Roll Effect -------+---------- DC + 5 shaken DC stunned DC - 5 paralyzed DC - 10 death This is a sight-based gaze attack and can only be seen properly within 30 feet. Sightless creatures, constructs, and undead are immune to this ability. (20 FP sounds good for how powerful it is, but I have no idea) Lunatic High: aimed at a LA 0 magical beast lupine race. Gives +2 attack, damage and AC at night. ((8 FP for 2 dodge AC + 14 FP for 2 attack bonus) / 3 for only at night = 8 FP?) For that same race, was a conclusion reached on FP buyback for not having hands? (-6 FP for 2 weapons and armor? That seems pretty low) Sensor: aimed at a LA +1 race of living constructs. Uses Int mod instead of Dex for ranged attacks, Dex penalty still applies. (This sounds like a regular feat so 4 FP?) Statsis: same race. May shut down movement and attack functions to make internal repairs and gain fast healing 1. Takes a full round to come out of, but may maintain a partial defense during. (10 FP? Fast healing halved because it isn't always active?) 30 walk speed, but can go 40 on all-fours. (2 FP?) The pounce ability. (6 FP?) The ability to change any appendange into any object (change self spell?). (18 FP?) 2x damage to objects. (2 FP?) +1 HP every level (Improved Toughness?) (6 FP?) Also, im my campaign if all humanoids with sufficient skill can pilot a living construct mecha (comparable to an adult dragon), how much of a buyback should I give to races that cannot use them? (-15 FP?) Some of the values are just guesses based on how powerful I think they are, but I tried to use whatever I could from the PDF. Would it be more beneficial to post a race with one of these abilities? Thanks to anyone who can offer help.
YabaTheWhat 11-21-06, 12:02 PM	Sorry, Yaba, I realize this but since it's conditionaly and only useable in sunlight, should I take 2/3 off the price? About 7 then? You're cutting far too much off a highly abuseable ability. Any caster could couple this with a Daylight spell to improve its portability. Fast healing 0 is worth 12 FP, so no reduction of fast healing 1+ should ever go below that. They still get limitless healing in any outdoor campaign, automatic stabilization, and slow automatic healing during daytime combats. The last aspect is the only one subject to reduced FP for sunlight dependence, because nobody would play one of these creatures in an all-underground campaign. Dragon Heart:It's a one time death save where if a will save (DC 20 - CL) is passed the first time they would be killed, the character is forced to take the form of an adult red dragon with full health. The dragon is treated as a monster (DM controls) and focuses attack on the offender, but will attack anything that gets in the way. This effect lasts until the opponent dies or one full day passes, and the character awakens in humanoid form with full health. This ability can never be used again (feats or PrCs may change that). Having a one-time-ever ability is cumbersome at best. It's an instant victory drawn from the jaws of defeat, but then results in rampant destruction of the remainder of the party (and anything else in the immediate area), ending the campaign. It's what one normally calls a gamebreaker. I'd advise just leaving this out of the equation completely, and never speaking of it again. Sun Child: Gives them fast healing 1 in direct sunlight, but is half as effective if overcast. See above. Probably 14-15 FP. Store Power: At will they can forefit their fast healing to instead store up the energy in reserve (most useful at full HP) to a max of CL + Con mod. This energy can be release in a melee attack for additional damage or used for sustanence in a prolonged absence of sun. While they do not consume food, they must process CL/2 energy per day to survive (a full store of energy would last two days underground). This is more powerful than Power Attack because it comes with no penalties. Obviously their reserve isn't enough to supply fast healing underground or at night, though it does buy them a bit of healing or power in a pinch. It also implies that the race can never spend more than two days underground (supporting my previous assertion about underground campaigns). You fail to specify how long it takes them to build a reserve (1 pt/round?), or how much extra damage they gain from sacrificing that reserve. Operating on the presumption of a point-for-point conversion in both cases, this would make up for any reduction in the value of their primary fast healing ability. [5-6 FP]Giant Growth: There are mecha in my campaign, but they are only useable by humanoids. This ability makes up for that fact. Once per day the character may grow into a gargantaun tree monster (think LOTR ent, no stats on the alternate form yet) and may stay in that shape for a number of rounds equal to Con mod. Becomes winded like a barbarian after reverting back. Start with the value of a 1/day Shapechange spell, cut it back a couple levels for versatility loss, and disregard the caster level. You're probably looking at 25-27 FP. Note: There's no way in :censored: you could get these guys down to ECL=CL with all the powerful abilities you're piling onto them. Divine Stigma: aimed at a LA +2 race of angels banished from heaven and bear a mark on their bodies as punishment. If the mark is seen, bad things happen to the character and onlooker. All viewers must make a Will Save (DC10+1/2 CL+Cha mod) or be subject to one of the following effects for 1 + Cha mod. rounds. The DC is raised by 1 for each HD lower the viewer is than the character, and lowered 1 for each higher. The viewer also receives a +2 circumstance bonus if the stigma is glanced in peripheral vision or seen by reflection. Whenever this ability is activated, the character takes 1d10 of non-lethal damage for the cumulative HD of all creatures affected. Roll Effect -------+---------- DC + 5 shaken DC stunned DC - 5 paralyzed DC - 10 death This is a sight-based gaze attack and can only be seen properly within 30 feet. Sightless creatures, constructs, and undead are immune to this ability. First off, straighten out your DCs. If succeeding on the save by 5 still makes them shaken, then the DC is really 5 points higher. Overall, this seems a bit less powerful than Cloudkill (a 5th-level spell) at will. Then there's the subdual damage to the creature itself, reducing the value further. Even a 3rd-level spell at will with an aura range would cost 60 FP, so let's leave it at that.Lunatic High: aimed at a LA 0 magical beast lupine race. Gives +2 attack, damage and AC at night. The attack bonus value depends on whether they have other bonuses, however that alone would be a minimum of 14 FP if active all the time. The AC bonus is unnamed, therefore worth 8 FP per point because it works against all attacks. (Natural armor would be 6 FP per point, or a dodge bonus vs all opponents would be 4 FP per point.) A damage increase is worth 2 FP per point. However, each of these values only applies part of the time, and is thus worth between 2/3 and 3/4 of its full-time cost. (Most of their intentional combats would be at night, as would about half of their unintentional ones.) For that same race, was a conclusion reached on FP buyback for not having hands? They're not taking negatives to their melee attacks because of the natural weapons. You deduct the value of the lost slots, plus treat them as taking a -5 penalty to ranged attacks (even though they can still cast ranged touch spells). As for armor, why couldn't they wear armor? If they're shaped like animals, they can wear barding. Sensor: Uses Int mod instead of Dex for ranged attacks, Dex penalty still applies. It sounds like they get a bonus on ranged attacks equal to their INT bonus (like a monk gaining the WIS bonus as a dodge bonus to AC). Take the race's inherent INT bonus (such as +1 if they have +2 INT), plus 6 FP for consolidation. Statsis: May shut down movement and attack functions to make internal repairs and gain fast healing 1. Takes a full round to come out of, but may maintain a partial defense during. See my comments about fast healing 0. They have unlimited out-of-combat healing, and automatic stabilization (because they won't fight while bleeding out anyway) with recovery to 1HP (or higher, until they decide to come out of stasis). Seems like 16-17 FP by itself. 30 walk speed, but can go 40 on all-fours. (2 FP?) If this is the race with natural weapons, 6 FP. If this is a race with hands, 3-4 FP, because they can't use all four limbs with a weapon drawn or an object held. The pounce ability. (6 FP?) Sounds about right. The ability to change any appendange into any object (change self spell?). Requires clarification. They can remove a limb and use Polymorph Any Object (an 8th level spell) on it? 2x damage to objects. You need to define what you mean by an "object". Constructs are objects. Actually, everything is an object (see: sentence structure). Did you mean inanimate objects? +1 HP every level (Improved Toughness?) (6 FP?) Probably 4 FP. Also, im my campaign if all humanoids with sufficient skill can pilot a living construct mecha (comparable to an adult dragon), how much of a buyback should I give to races that cannot use them? (-15 FP?) You don't. However, a device such as that should cost a tremendous amount to obtain (see costs for crafting constructs). If everyone gets a mech at 2nd level, you're no longer playing D&D.
YabaTheWhat 11-21-06, 12:15 PM	When calculating the feature points for a large creature, do I need to count the points for reach, or do the penalties of being large counteract that? For a large creature with 10ft reach, would the FP be 25 then? Also, I cannot find FP for creature types, so does having creature type Giant or Outsider carry FP? Thanks! Edit: just found the notes at the bottom. For creature type, would I simply have to break it down using that chart? Thanks! The reach benefit of Large size is not included; you would need to charge them for it separately. The reach penalty for tiny size is included. Any benefits or drawbacks for a size larger than Large or smaller than Tiny must be individually calculated, because the drawbacks become neglegible and the benefits increase exponentially. So yes, a large creature with 10 ft reach would be worth 25 FP plus the value of its other benefits. Creature types other than humanoid or animal are worth 3 FP for immunity to humanoid/animal target spells (such as Hold Person), plus the value of the individual benefits that creature type provides (weapon/armor proficiencies, darkvision, additional immunities, etc).
YabaTheWhat 11-21-06, 12:21 PM	...So, then, the total would be brought four points even higher... This does not bode well. I am, indeed, a fan of this system, but this would seem to be a glaring flaw. These are two races which, although quite adept at filling a number of roles and bloody perfect at a few key positions, have their power spread out enough so that the average character is unlikely to see all their abilities come into play with any real frequency. This aside, these are solid, well-structured races which I simply refuse to see graded so harshly. If there is anything I can do to help solve this problem, by all means, alert me. You're still not reading it right. Look at the dwarven bonus vs giants. The value of a conditional bonus (something only useable part of the time) depends on how often the benefit is likely to occur. See the god-when-immersed-in-lime-jello complaint. It's an aspect that isn't specifically listed in the charts (and one reason I was reluctant to just publish charts and be done with it), because there are too many possible combinations of "useable xx% of the time" situations to reasonably list. For example, a bonus vs all living foes will be useful at least 2/3 of the time, while a bonus vs all non-living foes will be useful at least 1/3 of the time; there will be some overlap, because the creature can pick its targets in a fight with both living and non-living creatures. A bonus vs creatures of Large size or greater will be useful between 1/2 and 2/3 of the time. A bonus vs creatures of the Giant type will be useful less than 1/10th of the time.
DarknessEternal 11-21-06, 01:29 PM	When your system suggests 2+CL, and something had 2 racial Hit Dice, is it suggesting that the race have a 0 level adjustment?
YabaTheWhat 11-21-06, 04:14 PM	When your system suggests 2+CL, and something had 2 racial Hit Dice, is it suggesting that the race have a 0 level adjustment? Does the 2+CL include all the benefits of the 2 racial hit dice (BAB, saves, skills, HP)? If so, then that's correct. If not, then you need to add in the benefits of the racial hit dice. Also remember that if the creature isn't humanoid, the benefits of the creature type must also be counted. Are you, perchance, referring to gnolls?
DarknessEternal 11-21-06, 04:27 PM	Does the 2+CL include all the benefits of the 2 racial hit dice (BAB, saves, skills, HP)? If so, then that's correct. If not, then you need to add in the benefits of the racial hit dice. Also remember that if the creature isn't humanoid, the benefits of the creature type must also be counted. Are you, perchance, referring to gnolls? No, not Gnolls. I was talking about a custom race used in my group's campaign setting. We had them at 2 HD and LA +1, but it's come up recently that they aren't really worth that. I ran them through your spreadsheet and (if I did everything correctly) it they ended up being 2+CL.
Ninetails Demon 11-21-06, 08:00 PM	I know that Yaba doesn't plan on updating his Feature Points sheet because he can't make any time for it, but does anyone else plan on updating for Yaba?
havenscloud 11-22-06, 10:59 AM	Thanks Yaba, that's a great help. As for armor, why couldn't they wear armor? If they're shaped like animals, they can wear barding. I was not aware of this, they are animal shaped, so they can only wear barding leather? You need to define what you mean by an "object". Constructs are objects. Actually, everything is an object (see: sentence structure). Did you mean inanimate objects? Yes, I meant inanimate. Just for a race that is particularly good at smashing stuff. You don't. However, a device such as that should cost a tremendous amount to obtain (see costs for crafting constructs). If everyone gets a mech at 2nd level, you're no longer playing D&D. Right, they are rare and expensive, but I have a number of races that are not humanoid and thought that would be a definite disadvantage if they could never use one. I was also counting on a buyback to make the plant-people much less ridiculous.
Kadasbrass 11-22-06, 11:39 AM	Okay here an question. After working on a rebalanced kobold, I came across a brainstorm. Why if they could detect traps the same way a elf detects secret doors? Whould this be 1 fp like the secret ability or worth more then traps are a bit more dangerously?
Lord_Gareth 11-22-06, 02:19 PM	Alright, here's another one for evaluation. I expect this to be horrible, but here goes: Faeries (Don't ask. Just don't) +4 dex, +4 int, -4 str, -4 con Tiny Humanoid Base Land Speed 10, Fly 30 (Perfect). A Faerie cannot go more than 100 feet up before they asphyxiate without magical aid. Invisibility: A Faerie may go invisible, as the spell, for up to thirty minutes a day. These minutes need not be consecutive. Going invisible is a move action, dispelling it is a free action. Shapechange: As the spell, but only to anything the same weight as the individual faerie. Unlimited/day Speak to Animals: On insects only, always active Favored Class: Wizard. A Faerie's levels in Wizard do not count against her other levels when determining XP penalties. Additionally, 3/5 of the Faerie's levels MUST be in Wizard.
YabaTheWhat 11-22-06, 03:02 PM	Okay here an question. After working on a rebalanced kobold, I came across a brainstorm. Why if they could detect traps the same way a elf detects secret doors? Whould this be 1 fp like the secret ability or worth more then traps are a bit more dangerously? I'd say it's worth more, but not a lot more. Remember that they still need to succeed at the search check to find the trap, just as an elf needs to succeed to know the secret door is there. Probably 2 FP would be fair. (Either this ability or the elf/dwarf abilities on which it's based could pose a problem for metagamers, who stop and take 20 whenever they're told to make a search or spot check by the DM. Of course, there are ways around this problem, such as asking for search/spot checks at random, or asking the whole party even if only one person's result matters.) I was not aware of this, they are animal shaped, so they can only wear barding leather?Any armor can be made into barding. It just costs twice as much. After all, a paladin in full plate riding an unarmored warhorse is just begging to have his mount tripped. Yes, I meant inanimate. Just for a race that is particularly good at smashing stuff.Let me suggest phrasing it that any attack made by them on an inanimate object bypasses hardness up to an amount equal to the damage rolled. This benefit does not apply to damage reduction. For example, say one of them hits a chest with hardness 10, and rolls 8damage. Normally that wouldn't scratch the chest. However, they also bypass hardness 8, so they deal 6 damage (as if their damage roll was doubled). However, if the chest only had hardness 5, they would deal only the 8 damage rolled, not the 11 damage that a doubled roll would have caused. Right, they are rare and expensive, but I have a number of races that are not humanoid and thought that would be a definite disadvantage if they could never use one. I was also counting on a buyback to make the plant-people much less ridiculous. If I told you that you could never drive a Lamborghini, how much of a hinderance would that be? Probably none. Worst case, if you did have that kind of money to spend on a sports car, you would just buy a Ferrari instead. The fact is that there are enough powerful magic items in the D&D world that being prohibited from using a small group of them shouldn't pose a problem.
Lord_Gareth 11-22-06, 04:25 PM	Left out the type on accident, editing.
Kadasbrass 11-22-06, 04:33 PM	I'd say it's worth more, but not a lot more. Remember that they still need to succeed at the search check to find the trap, just as an elf needs to succeed to know the secret door is there. Probably 2 FP would be fair. (Either this ability or the elf/dwarf abilities on which it's based could pose a problem for metagamers, who stop and take 20 whenever they're told to make a search or spot check by the DM. Of course, there are ways around this problem, such as asking for search/spot checks at random, or asking the whole party even if only one person's result matters.) I do the random things now and then. But more then likely will roll the search checks in secret. Thanks Yaba.
aotrscommander 11-22-06, 06:11 PM	Okay, out of curiousity and lack of anything better to do, I'm going to take a stab at FPing my modified Gryphon race. I think I get most of it, but some areas I'm not sure about (bolded) Species Traits: • Magic Beast Type [1FP] • +8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Cha: [22+9+15-3+4=47] (Is this right, full FP for every stat?) • Large Quadruped: -1 AC, -1 on attack rolls, -4 on Hide, +4 on Grapple, lifting and carrying capacity limits are triple those of Medium creatures.[?FP] • Space/Reach: 10’/5’ [0FP] • Base Speed 30’; Fly 80’ (Average): [48FP]* • Racial Hit Dice: 7 levels of Magic Beast, providing 7D10 HD BAB +7, Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2 [35+21=56] • Racial Skills: A Gryphon’s Magic Beast levels give it 10 x (2+ Int mod) skills. Class skills are Listen, Jump, Search, Spot and Tumble [8FP] • Racial Feats: A Gryphon’s Magic Beast levels give it 3 Feats. [0FP?] •Low-Light Vision (but not Darkvision) [?FP] • +8 racial bonus on Spot; Gryphons have exceptional eyesight; they double all spotting ranges during daylight. [+4+?FP] • +3 Natural Armour: [18FP] • Natural Weapons: Two Claws (D6+Str) and two Rakes (D6+ ½Str) and one Bite (2D6+ ½Str)[1+7+7+7?+7?+14=43] • Special Attacks (see above): Improved Grab, Lethal Bite (see below), Pounce, Rake [say, 6+6+6+6=24] Lethal Bite (Ex): If a Gryphon starts the round with a target held in it’s claws, it may make a special bite attack at +4. This attack does not suffer the usual –4 penalty for attacking with natural weapons while grappling and the threat range of this attack is doubled. It may not make this attack if the target is held only by a single claw. • Lack of Manipulation: Because of their lack of hands, Gryphons cannot use objects easily. If they are called to do so, such as picking up a small object of opening a door, their Dex is effectively halved for that task. Some tasks, such as picking a lock and most Craft skills, are simply beyond them without some kind of magical assistance. [?] Lack of equipment slots: Say, all but 2 ring and amulet slots [-14FP] Total 235 (plus mods for Low Light Vision, double spotting range, Lack of Manipulation and Large Size) This comes out as a hair over balanced 7+CL if I'm reading this right (and probably will be slightly more with the other adjustments.) So does that mean it's LA +0, ECL 7, right? (I'd got them at LA +3!) Or have I completely missed the mark? (Actually, LA +0 sounds a little closer; I was a bit concerned they might be a little of the weaker side!) *This could perhaps afford to be lowered slightly since the campaign world has a large number of flying opponents to take into account.
Keenath 11-22-06, 11:15 PM	As for armor, why couldn't they wear armor? If they're shaped like animals, they can wear barding. What WOULD be the (negative) FP value of a creature who can't wear armor at all? Two examples: A warforged effectively has integral leather armor, and has to use feats (balanced in and of themselves, really) to change that. They can't take off this armor or replace it. The armor bonus is worth some points -- 10 or so, I would guess; it's not QUITE as good as natural armor due to ASF -- but what is the point return for not being able to use real armor? A sorta-homebrew race of mine, the Akki (from M:TG's Kamigawa setting), have thick, bulbous shells of chitin, like crabs. They have some natural armor, but can't wear any OTHER armor. Obviously, this is a benefit to casters, but a major drawback for any melee class. The NA is easy to figure, but what's the limitation worth? And welcome back after your long absence, yaba!
aotrscommander 11-23-06, 07:38 AM	What WOULD be the (negative) FP value of a creature who can't wear armor at all? Two examples: A warforged effectively has integral leather armor, and has to use feats (balanced in and of themselves, really) to change that. They can't take off this armor or replace it. The armor bonus is worth some points -- 10 or so, I would guess; it's not QUITE as good as natural armor due to ASF -- but what is the point return for not being able to use real armor? A sorta-homebrew race of mine, the Akki (from M:TG's Kamigawa setting), have thick, bulbous shells of chitin, like crabs. They have some natural armor, but can't wear any OTHER armor. Obviously, this is a benefit to casters, but a major drawback for any melee class. The NA is easy to figure, but what's the limitation worth? And welcome back after your long absence, yaba! That's a point of interest to me too...a lot of my world-specific races are like my gryphon above, not really capable of wearing armour. Would or should there be a modification above any beyond the 'can't wear equipment' mod?
Keenath 11-23-06, 08:47 PM	That's a point of interest to me too...a lot of my world-specific races are like my gryphon above, not really capable of wearing armour. Would or should there be a modification above any beyond the 'can't wear equipment' mod? I think the Equipment thing (-2 FP, as I recall) only counts for magic item slots, like rings or bracers or whatnot.
lord_blackfang 11-26-06, 11:21 AM	Interesting system. I found this thread yesterday and I'm now evaluating my homebrew races. It's working out fine for the most part, but I'd be really grateful if some kind soul could give me a help with pricing a few quirky abilities: Inspirational: Simians have an inborn ability to motivate others. As a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, a simian can speak a few words of wisdom to a single ally. The target receives a +2 morale bonus on his next attack roll, skill check, ability check or saving throw, as long as it is made before the end of the next round. This is an extraordinary ability that can be used a number of times per day equal to the simian's Wisdom modifier (minimum 1/day). [I have no idea about this one] Intuit Direction: Being natural explorers and wanderers, dwarves have an innate sense of direction. They can always tell which way is north. [Effectively, it replicates an Instantaneous cantrip at will, but I don't know how to work out the cost from the tables] Iron stomach: Half-orcs can eat almost any organic material. They receive a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves and Constitution checks against any ill effects from ingested substances. [I'm guessing +1 FP as it is a rarely used ability] EDIT: A few more Naturally Psionic: Teresti gain one bonus power point per level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. Psionic Shield: All teresti learn how to use their inborn power to shield themselves. As long as she has at least one power point in her reserve, a teresti has a +1 deflection bonus to AC. At 10th level, the deflection bonus increases to +2 as long as the character has at least 10 power points in her reserve. At 20th level, it increases to +3 as long as she has at least 20 power points in her reserve. Secrete poison: When agitated, anurians automatically secrete poisonous mucus from their skin. Within a round of entering any highly stressful situation (such as combat), an anurian becomes covered in the mucus, and anyone touching its bare skin (for example, attacking the anurian with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or touch attack, or attempting to grapple it) risks poisoning himself. Anurian poison has a save DC of 13. Both primary and secondary damage is 1d3 Dexterity. When entering a stressful situation, an anurian can attempt a DC 13 Will save to resist releasing the poison. It takes an anurian 1 minute to wipe itself clean of the poison. Anurians are immune to their own poison and to that of other anurians. Also, has anyone done Elans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) yet? Thanks :)
Manyfist 11-26-06, 01:26 PM	Whats the FP for more than 2 functioning arms?
Keenath 11-27-06, 02:49 PM	Whats the FP for more than 2 functioning arms? Discussed thoroughly on page 15, in post #445.
Yaeri 11-27-06, 05:04 PM	Inspirational: As a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, a simian can speak a few words of wisdom to a single ally. The target receives a +2 morale bonus on his next attack roll, skill check, ability check or saving throw, as long as it is made before the end of the next round. This is an extraordinary ability that can be used a number of times per day equal to the simian's Wisdom modifier (minimum 1/day). [I have no idea about this one] Intuit Direction: Being natural explorers and wanderers, dwarves have an innate sense of direction. They can always tell which way is north. [Effectively, it replicates an Instantaneous cantrip at will, but I don't know how to work out the cost from the tables] Iron stomach: Half-orcs can eat almost any organic material. They receive a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves and Constitution checks against any ill effects from ingested substances. [I'm guessing +1 FP as it is a rarely used ability] EDIT: A few more Naturally Psionic: Teresti gain one bonus power point per level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. Psionic Shield: All teresti learn how to use their inborn power to shield themselves. As long as she has at least one power point in her reserve, a teresti has a +1 deflection bonus to AC. At 10th level, the deflection bonus increases to +2 as long as the character has at least 10 power points in her reserve. At 20th level, it increases to +3 as long as she has at least 20 power points in her reserve. Secrete poison: When agitated, anurians automatically secrete poisonous mucus from their skin. Within a round of entering any highly stressful situation (such as combat), an anurian becomes covered in the mucus, and anyone touching its bare skin (for example, attacking the anurian with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or touch attack, or attempting to grapple it) risks poisoning himself. Anurian poison has a save DC of 13. Both primary and secondary damage is 1d3 Dexterity. When entering a stressful situation, an anurian can attempt a DC 13 Will save to resist releasing the poison. It takes an anurian 1 minute to wipe itself clean of the poison. Anurians are immune to their own poison and to that of other anurians. Also, has anyone done Elans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) yet? Thanks :) Inspirational looks a lot like the aid another mechanic, so I would price it only at 1FP Intuit direction: it's a level 0 spell like ability usable at will. Its effect is on yourself only, so if I read the tables correctly it costs 1 FP. Iron stomach: I'm thinking 1 FP here as well, maybe 1,5 FP. (I don't know a thing about psionics) Secrete poison: If this were a spell, I think it would be level 2, so that would make it almost like an at will level 2 spell like ability. 7 FP or more. My gut sais 10-14 FP.
Yuri_Zhivago 11-27-06, 09:27 PM	I would argue with Yaeri about the bonus provided by Iron Stomach: +4 is nothing to turn ones nose up at, and the way it's worded, it not only provides a bonus against spoiled food, but against ingested poisons and diseases, as well as (arguably) drowning, and against anything entering the body through the digestive tract. That has, while not universal, fairly broad utility. Yuri
Yaeri 11-28-06, 05:29 AM	For the iron stomach I looked at the FP for saves against poison, which is what I found most alike. A +4 to saves vs poison would be worth 2 FP. Iron stomach protects only against ingested poisons though. Ingested poisons are only a small part of the poisons, and the most dangerous in my opinion are the injury poisons. ("How often is an enemy going to get poison in one of the pc's food?" Compared to "How often is a PC going to be bitten by a poisonous enemy, or attacked by a poisoned weapon?") So I halved the FP cost to 1 FP.
Tyraxus 11-30-06, 01:39 AM	Mmk, lemme see if I've got this right. The system still works for templates, correct? Race based on the Half-Fiend creation method out of the Monster Manual web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a), and then nerfing the abilities to bring the +4 LA down a tad (and I don't really care about the SR or DR anyway). Lesser Half-Babau Template Type: Gives creature planetouched subtype [???] Movement: As base creature [0 FP] Speed: As base creature [0 FP] Natural Armour: +1 [6 FP] Special Abilities: Darkvision [2 FP] Sneak Attack: gain +1d6 at character level 4 and another at 8, to +2d6 [6ish??? FP] Abilities: STR +4 [9 FP] CON +4 [9 FP] CHA +2 [4 FP] Skill bonuses: Lesser Half-Babaus gain a +4 racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Search checks. [8 FP] Alignment: Any non-good [0 FP] LA: +1 (44 FP as valued, so slightly overpowered +1) I'm pretty sure I added this up right, but am I off on my valuation (especially on the subtype change and the sneak attack dice)?
YabaTheWhat 11-30-06, 03:25 PM	A few aspects that seem to be frequently missed: A non-humanoid creature type is worth 3 FP plus the value of any features & traits awarded to the creature by its type and/or racial hit dice. (The animal type is not worth 3 FP, but is also not playable.) This cost accounts for immunity to humanoid-only spells, as well as additional form options for the Alter Self and Polymorph spells if applicable. Any creature with one or more ability scores raised to +4 or higher incurs a highest-score cost in addition to the cost of the ability score bonus itself. This additional cost applies only to the highest ability score, and is listed on the table. For features with listed increments, the features supplied to creatures generally include at least one increment. For example, fast healing 2 has 2 increments of 1 point each, plus the base cost (2x8+12 = 28 FP). Darkvision 60 ft has 1 increment of 60 ft, plus the base cost (1x1+2 = 3 FP), while darkvision 120 ft has 2 increments plus the base cost (2x1+2 = 4 FP). A creature with darkvision but no increments has darkvision in its own square(s) only. A creature with fast healing but no increments has instant stabilization but heals significantly less than 1 HP per round, if at all.
YabaTheWhat 11-30-06, 03:46 PM	Interesting system. I found this thread yesterday and I'm now evaluating my homebrew races. It's working out fine for the most part, but I'd be really grateful if some kind soul could give me a help with pricing a few quirky abilities: Inspirational: Simians have an inborn ability to motivate others. As a standard action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, a simian can speak a few words of wisdom to a single ally. The target receives a +2 morale bonus on his next attack roll, skill check, ability check or saving throw, as long as it is made before the end of the next round. This is an extraordinary ability that can be used a number of times per day equal to the simian's Wisdom modifier (minimum 1/day). [I have no idea about this one] Intuit Direction: Being natural explorers and wanderers, dwarves have an innate sense of direction. They can always tell which way is north. [Effectively, it replicates an Instantaneous cantrip at will, but I don't know how to work out the cost from the tables] Iron stomach: Half-orcs can eat almost any organic material. They receive a +4 racial bonus on Fortitude saves and Constitution checks against any ill effects from ingested substances. [I'm guessing +1 FP as it is a rarely used ability] EDIT: A few more Naturally Psionic: Teresti gain one bonus power point per level. This benefit does not grant them the ability to manifest powers unless they gain that ability through another source, such as levels in a psionic class. Psionic Shield: All teresti learn how to use their inborn power to shield themselves. As long as she has at least one power point in her reserve, a teresti has a +1 deflection bonus to AC. At 10th level, the deflection bonus increases to +2 as long as the character has at least 10 power points in her reserve. At 20th level, it increases to +3 as long as she has at least 20 power points in her reserve. Secrete poison: When agitated, anurians automatically secrete poisonous mucus from their skin. Within a round of entering any highly stressful situation (such as combat), an anurian becomes covered in the mucus, and anyone touching its bare skin (for example, attacking the anurian with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or touch attack, or attempting to grapple it) risks poisoning himself. Anurian poison has a save DC of 13. Both primary and secondary damage is 1d3 Dexterity. When entering a stressful situation, an anurian can attempt a DC 13 Will save to resist releasing the poison. It takes an anurian 1 minute to wipe itself clean of the poison. Anurians are immune to their own poison and to that of other anurians. Also, has anyone done Elans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) yet? Thanks :)Inspirational looks a lot like the aid another mechanic, so I would price it only at 1FP [Except that aiding another comes with numerous strings attached. This sounds more like an enhanced version of the Guidance cantrip. It is more powerful than Aid Another, but less powerful than bardic Inspire Competence. Probably 2 FP per use, based on average wisdom for the creature.] Intuit direction: it's a level 0 spell like ability usable at will. Its effect is on yourself only, so if I read the tables correctly it costs 1 FP. [N/A does not equal 1. This is equivalent to a huge Survival bonus, but with only limited application. 4-5 FP seems fair.] Iron stomach: I'm thinking 1 FP here as well, maybe 1,5 FP. (I don't know a thing about psionics) Secrete poison: If this were a spell, I think it would be level 2, so that would make it almost like an at will level 2 spell like ability. 7 FP or more. My gut sais 10-14 FP. [There is an entry for Ability Damage, including use-at-will poisons. They cost quite a bit more than this. It was discussed in detail on an earlier page.] I am also not really familiar with psionics. See my responses in bold bracketed text. Mmk, lemme see if I've got this right. The system still works for templates, correct? Feature points are assigned based on the resulting creature, not the template itself.
Tyraxus 11-30-06, 04:26 PM	So I bungled it badly, then. Kk, back to the drawing board. The system seems very fluid and adaptable, kudos Yaba!
aotrscommander 11-30-06, 05:25 PM	A few aspects that seem to be frequently missed: A non-humanoid creature type is worth 3 FP plus the value of any features & traits awarded to the creature by its type and/or racial hit dice. (The animal type is not worth 3 FP, but is also not playable.) This cost accounts for immunity to humanoid-only spells, as well as additional form options for the Alter Self and Polymorph spells if applicable. Thanks, I wasn't sure about that, and I didn't see an entry in the tables (I might have missed it though). Any creature with one or more ability scores raised to +4 or higher incurs a highest-score cost in addition to the cost of the ability score bonus itself. This additional cost applies only to the highest ability score, and is listed on the table. Definately missed that; I did see the column, but wasn't sure what it meant! A few questions, if I may... For features with listed increments, the features supplied to creatures generally include at least one increment. For example, fast healing 2 has 2 increments of 1 point each, plus the base cost (2x8+12 = 28 FP). Darkvision 60 ft has 1 increment of 60 ft, plus the base cost (1x1+2 = 3 FP), while darkvision 120 ft has 2 increments plus the base cost (2x1+2 = 4 FP). A creature with darkvision but no increments has darkvision in its own square(s) only. A creature with fast healing but no increments has instant stabilization but heals significantly less than 1 HP per round, if at all. What about Low-Light vision? (or for that matter, Scent?) You've got it as incremented, but to my knowledge, it doesn't have a listed range. So how does that work? Is there any FP for size (other than that for reach?) For creatures with racial hit dice, how does the skills & feats section fit in? I wasn't sure it the costs were for skills for class skills on your list, or just for specific bonus skills; for feats, what's the FP for the HD-based, non-bonus feats (if any)? I am right in treating the Rake attacks as normal natural weapons? (For that matter, is say 6 about right for special abilities like pounce, improved grab or rake?) Finally, I shall reiterate mine and Keenath's question: what would the FP adjustment be for a creature unable to use equipment (say armour) at all, aside from the -2 per slot 'can't use equipment?'
YabaTheWhat 11-30-06, 11:30 PM	What about Low-Light vision? (or for that matter, Scent?) You've got it as incremented, but to my knowledge, it doesn't have a listed range. So how does that work? Is there any FP for size (other than that for reach?) For creatures with racial hit dice, how does the skills & feats section fit in? I wasn't sure it the costs were for skills for class skills on your list, or just for specific bonus skills; for feats, what's the FP for the HD-based, non-bonus feats (if any)? I am right in treating the Rake attacks as normal natural weapons? (For that matter, is say 6 about right for special abilities like pounce, improved grab or rake?) Finally, I shall reiterate mine and Keenath's question: what would the FP adjustment be for a creature unable to use equipment (say armour) at all, aside from the -2 per slot 'can't use equipment?' Low-light vision, scent, and other such abilities do have increments. Scent's default is 2x light source, and scent's default is 30 ft (6 increments). Note that the value of each increment is listed directly below the name of any feature where intervals are not defined as fixed integers. Large size (excluding reach), small size, or tiny size (including lost reach) are considered balanced as package deals. Any deviation beyond that requires separate calculation based on the individual benefits and drawbacks. For smaller sizes, the AC and attack bonuses build exponentially. For larger sizes, damage grows exponentially, and extended reach becomes unavoidable. The costs for racial hit dice apply to skill points per hit die (you know, the ones that are spent to buy ranks). Class vs cross-class skills can be ignored, becuase the number of class skills is proportional with the number of skill points per hit die. Hitdie feats do not incur an extra charge. Base attack bonus cost is calculated separately, based on the attack bonuses table. Rake is worth slightly less than a standard natural attack, because the creature using it needs to hit with a different natural attack to use the rake. Special attacks follow the same concept. It's bonus damage as per the natural weapons themselves, but only useable under limited circumstances. Contrary to popular opinion, any race with a fixed form can wear armor. The standard clause is that custom-shaped armor costs double (which applies only to the mundane and masterwork cost, not the cost of magical enhancements). Races without a fixed body shape either have the ability to take a shape that wears armor, or have lost far more from other sources. Warforged can wear armor (despite any statement to the contrary in their entry), but the armor bonus does not stack with their composite plating, and they have to pay extra for custom-shaped armor (unless the DM decides otherwise). Plus warforged feats are horribly designed in the first place.
MareltEkiran 12-01-06, 12:14 AM	Can someone give me an FP judgement on the following abilities that I designed for certain races of mine (which can be found here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=739568)). # Lightning assault: As a move-equivalent action, Sirilians can move half of their land speed as a lightning assault. This movement must be in a straight unblocked line (although it can be over rough terrain), but does not provoke attacks of opportunity. # Master of Conduction: A Sirilian gains a +1 racial bonus to any touch or ranged touch attack to hit a target with an electricity-based attack. Also, the DC of any reflex save to avoid damage from a Sirilian electricity-based attack is increased by 1. # Wind immunity: Irinsians are never hampered by any form of wind (although they can by hit by something carried by the wind). As a consequence, they are also immume to spells that rely on the force of wind, such as Gust of Wind or Cyclonic Blast. # +1 racial attack bonus with any weapon that counts as a light weapon to the Irinsian. # Flying Whirlwind: As a full-round action, an Irinsian can move her full speed and make one melee attack at her highest base modifier against any enemy who, during any point in this movement, comes within her reach. This movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity. An Irinsian can use this ability once per encounter and is fatigued for the rest of the encounter after using it. # Salandrians have a swim speed of 30 feet. When submerged in water, they spontaniously develop webbed feet and hands, as well as minor fins. These disappear when they go back to land. # Fluid grace: A Salandrian gains a +2 racial bonus to attack rolls when wielding a one-handed weapon with two hands. # Water Breathing: Salandrians can breathe water as easily as they can breathe air. # Endure Elements: Salandrians are continiously under the effect of Endure Elements, as long as they are submerged in water. # Hand of Fire: Karnins can set their hands on fire at will. Their hands provide illumination as a torch, add 1d4 fire damage to their unarmed attacks and can do everything that would be expected from a normal torch. # Body of Fire: Karnins can let smaller flames wreathe from their entire body. Any opponent in a grapple takes 1d6 fire damage per round on the Karnin's turn. # Fire sustenance: Karnins do not need to eat or drink. Instead, they must be surrounded by fire for at least an hour per day. # Flaming Edge: Karnins add their INT modifier to the hit point damage dealt by any fire spell they cast. The damage is only added once, even if the spell produces multiple missiles (such as scorching ray). # Stun: A Mahrdian gets the stunning fist feat as a bonus feat. Furthermore, the feat can be used with any bludgeoning weapon, rather than just an unarmed strike. # Slow metabolism: +4 on fortitude saves against poison and disease. Any poison and disease also takes twice as long as normal to affect a Mahrdian. # Slow bloodflow: A dying Mahrdian only loses 1 HP every 2 rounds. Any bleeding effect or a continious wound is also halved. # Bastion of Defense: When a Sarandor uses a shield, he gains a +2 shield bonus to AC during any round that he doesn't move. # Master of Improvization: A Sarandor takes no penalties for using an improvised weapon (assuming that he is proficient with a weapon of equal base damage). # Powerful throw: When a Sarandor uses a throwing weapon, the range is increased by 50%. # Horrible taste: Any creature that bites a Zurren must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 11+ Zurren's CON modifier) or be nauseated until the end of its next turn. If a creature with an intelligence of 2 or lower fails its saving throw, it will not willingly bite the Zurren again. If someone attempts to direct the creature to bite again, then he must succeed on a Handle Animal check to "push" the creature. This check must be made every time he attempts to make the creature bite again. Creatures that are immume to poison, acid or lack the ability to taste are unaffected by this ability. This ability functions as a permanized Horrible Taste spell (SC 116). # Corroding touch: A Zurren can concentrate a more potent acid to his hands. For every minute that he lays his hands on a metal, wooden, cloth or rope object, the break DC decreases by 2. Magic items are immume to this effect. This ability is too slow to have any function in combat. # Hand of Light: A Lumin can let her hands flare up in a white light, which functions as the light spell. Furthermore, a touch attack from a Lumin deals 1d6 points of light damage to any undead creature. A Lumin can supress or resume this ability as a free action. # Grace of Light: When interacting with any non-evil creature with an intelligence of 3 or higher, the creature's starting attitude towards the Lumin will be one category higher than it normally would have been (to a maximum of "helpful"). # Healing touch: A Lumin can heal wounds with a touch, up to her character level + her Charisma modifier per day. This ability otherwise functions exactly like the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. # Divine sensitivity: Whenever Lumins heal hitpoints by magic, they heal 50% more hitpoints than normally. For example, if they received a Cure Light Wounds spell which would normally heal 8 hitpoints, they heal 12 hitpoints instead. On the downside, they also take 50% extra damage from inflict spells and abilities (including Harm). Furthermore, if they are in the area of a Rebuke Undead attempt, they must make a will save vs. the turning damage or be shaken for 1 round per class level of source of the Rebuke Undead. # Smite Evil: A Lumin can perform a Smite Evil attack once per day. This functions as the Paladin ability and stacks with similar abilities granted by class levels. # Immunities: Lumins are immume to blinding and any spell with the [light] descriptor. # Alignment restriction: A Lumin who strays from the good alignment loses her spell-like abilities and the benefits of Grace of Light, Healing Touch and Smite Evil. She cannot regain these abilities unless she receives an atonement spell.
aotrscommander 12-01-06, 08:11 AM	Low-light vision, scent, and other such abilities do have increments. Scent's default is 2x light source, and scent's default is 30 ft (6 increments). Note that the value of each increment is listed directly below the name of any feature where intervals are not defined as fixed integers. Ah yes, I ge it now. So then x2 Low Light vision is worth 1 FP, correct? Large size (excluding reach), small size, or tiny size (including lost reach) are considered balanced as package deals. Any deviation beyond that requires separate calculation based on the individual benefits and drawbacks. For smaller sizes, the AC and attack bonuses build exponentially. For larger sizes, damage grows exponentially, and extended reach becomes unavoidable. Thanks. The costs for racial hit dice apply to skill points per hit die (you know, the ones that are spent to buy ranks). Class vs cross-class skills can be ignored, becuase the number of class skills is proportional with the number of skill points per hit die. Hitdie feats do not incur an extra charge. Base attack bonus cost is calculated separately, based on the attack bonuses table. Okay. Was about to ask about the skill group cost, then realised it was for skill bonuses! *smacks head* Rake is worth slightly less than a standard natural attack, because the creature using it needs to hit with a different natural attack to use the rake. Special attacks follow the same concept. It's bonus damage as per the natural weapons themselves, but only useable under limited circumstances. Has this been addressed eariler anywhere (I confess, I only follow this thread periodically)? If not, would it be something like say 50-75% FP for a normal attack then? Contrary to popular opinion, any race with a fixed form can wear armor. Some of the races I've got (like say the Gagana, which is basically a whacking great bird) would find it highly impractical to wear armour. Should I just reflect this with a the 'can't use equipment slot' then? Oh, and in case I haven't said his before, I deeply appriciate your efforts on this entire thread/project! Keep up the superb work.
Kage_no_Neko 12-01-06, 12:52 PM	Some of the races I've got (like say the Gagana, which is basically a whacking great bird) would find it highly impractical to wear armour. Should I just reflect this with a the 'can't use equipment slot' then? The Gagana would just wear armor like a flying mount would (i.e. barding). Specialized armor can be made for any creature like Yaba has said, it just has to be designed properly to still allow the creature to move as necessary. That said, a great big bird has limitations on its armor/carrying capacity based upon its ability to fly (i.e. a flying creature that uses wings can not fly with medium or heavier loads, barring a few feats that counter this). So in the end saying a creature cannot use a piece of equipment based upon body type does not work because someone will always be able to design a way around this (:confused: I guess designing a suit of armor for an ooze might be tough).
Keenath 12-01-06, 04:02 PM	You're simply wrong on the Warforged thing, Yaba. The Eberron CS says: "Composite plating occupies the same space on the body as a suit of armor or robe, and thus a warforged cannot wear armor or magic robes." It doesn't say his armor bonuses won't stack; it says his slot is permanently occupied, so he can't wear armor. Anyway, regardless of whether you think it's a good idea or logical, what is a "cannot use armor/barding" ability worth in terms of FP?
Rerecros 12-02-06, 02:06 AM	what is the cost of: SR= HD? 2xHD? 3xHD?... +1 NA every level? every 2nd level? every 3rd?... The ability to use both hands, even when climbing? An alignment subtype? The ability to bypass certain DR? to use a trained only skill untrained? using a different ability score for certain skills (ex. dex becomes the key skill for climbing and jumping) the penalty for a skill failure of 5 or more results in the penalty for a failure of 4 or less (ex. when swimming, this character cannot sink, they simply float) Dexterity Ranged attack rolls. [3 FP] Armor Class. [4 FP] Reflex saving throws [2 FP] Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. [4.5 FP] So +1 dexterity worth 4 FP, broken down is worth 13.5 FP I understand you stance that all skills are equal, so the costs of all scores should be raised dramatically. There are reasons why any core creatures with positive ability adjustments have racial HD or LA. And there should be costs for odd ability adjustments. (I know I've posted this before, but you haven't gotten a response from yabba yet. This ability score flaw is holding up my use of the FP system, why give a creature more specialized features, when a lump of ability adjustments is cheaper?)
Sylvaroth 12-02-06, 07:50 AM	Would anyone mind to do the feature point value for the Eberron races? I would love to see the FPs for the shifter and the warforged.
Kage_no_Neko 12-02-06, 12:56 PM	Dexterity Ranged attack rolls. [3 FP] Armor Class. [4 FP] Reflex saving throws [2 FP] Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, and Use Rope checks. [4.5 FP] So +1 dexterity worth 4 FP, broken down is worth 13.5 FP I understand you stance that all skills are equal, so the costs of all scores should be raised dramatically. There are reasons why any core creatures with positive ability adjustments have racial HD or LA. And there should be costs for odd ability adjustments. (I know I've posted this before, but you haven't gotten a response from yabba yet. This ability score flaw is holding up my use of the FP system, why give a creature more specialized features, when a lump of ability adjustments is cheaper?) That's the point. From a racial perspective getting a bonus to an ability score makes more sense. Different ability scores provide different bonuses, and none of them will be the same. The argument that some abilities should be worth more has been rehashed many times. Having all the ability scores cost the same is just a convenience because figuring out the values and intervals necessary for them to be different would just be too hard. Would anyone mind to do the feature point value for the Eberron races? I would love to see the FPs for the shifter and the warforged. To lazy to do it myself :D, but I would like to see this too.
Sylvaroth 12-02-06, 03:55 PM	That is what I have come so far: Shifters Shapechanger Subtype (1 FP) They get armor and weapon proficiencies as humanoids, except for proficiency with their natural weapon. A +2 bonus on one ability, -2 penalties on two abilities (-2 FP) Medium (0 FP) Speed 30 feet (0 FP) Shifting (7 FP) Low-light vision (1 FP) +2 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, and Jump checks (3 FP) Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: Elven, Gnome, Halfling, and Sylvan (0 FP) Favored Class: Ranger (0 FP) Which adds up to 10 FP, so assuming that I have not overlooked something, the shifters are on the low end of balanced races without LA, together with humans, half-elves and goblins. Warforged Living Construct Subtype (49+??? FP) does not need to breath, sleep, or eat, immune to disese, fatigue, poison, (52 FP), cannot heal naturaly (-3) A +2 bonus on one ability, -2 penalties on two abilities (-2 FP) Medium (0 FP) Speed 30 feet (0 FP) Composite Plating (??? FP) +2 armor bonus (12 FP), no body slot for suits of armor or robes (-2 FP), can be enchanted as armor, 5% arcane spell failure chance. Light Fortification (??? FP) 25% chance of converting damage from a critical hit or sneak attack to normal damage. Slam Attack (6 (2) FP) Natural weapon slam 1d4 (1+1+4(-4)=6 (2) FP). Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None (-0.5 FP) Since the humans' ability to choose any bonus langues has 0.5 FP, and 2 bonus skill points have 0.5 FP, I give -0.5 FP for no bonus languages, because a warforged would need to invest a skill point in any additional languages, if it decided to. Favored Class: Fighter (0 FP) Which adds up to 62.5 (58.5) FP, so assuming that I have not overlooked something, all aspects of the traits I did not evaluate should have at least 40.5 (44.5).
Sylvaroth 12-04-06, 04:49 AM	bump :bump:
havenscloud 12-04-06, 11:29 AM	I believe the living construct subtype has been discussed here before, but I don't remember where. This is how I figure: Warforged Construct type (3 FP) Living Construct Subtype (53 FP) -does not need to breath (15 FP), sleep (16 FP), or eat (3 FP) -immune to disese (8 FP), poison (10 FP), paralysis (6 FP?), energy drain (4 FP?) -cannot heal naturaly (-3 FP) -can be affected by spells targeting creatures or constructs (-3 FP?) -healing spells have 1/2 benefit (-6 FP) -automatic stabalization 3 FP A +2 bonus on one ability, -2 penalties on two abilities (-2 FP) Medium (0 FP) Speed 30 feet (0 FP) Composite Plating (10 FP) +2 natural armor bonus (12 FP), no body slot for suits of armor or robes (-2 FP), can be enchanted as armor, 5% arcane spell failure chance. Light Fortification (1 FP?) 25% chance of converting damage from a critical hit or sneak attack to normal damage. Immunity to critical hits is only 5 FP, so this shouldn't be much Slam Attack (2 FP) Natural weapon slam 1d4 (1+1+4(-4)=6 (2) FP). Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None (-0.5 FP) Since the humans' ability to choose any bonus langues has 0.5 FP, and 2 bonus skill points have 0.5 FP, I give -0.5 FP for no bonus languages, because a warforged would need to invest a skill point in any additional languages, if it decided to. Favored Class: Fighter (0 FP) Which adds up to 66.5 FP, LA +2 over powered.
Manyfist 12-05-06, 02:48 PM	Did you figure in Being vulnerable to certin spells that normal characters are down right immune to? They're affected by things that target Living Creatures and Constructs. They Take Damage through Heat/Chill Metal and Repel Metal/Stone. Takeing 2d6 dmg from Rusting grasp. These should be worth some neg FP. Being able to be targeted with all this should imo knock it down alot.
Angel Black 12-05-06, 04:02 PM	... has anyone done Elans (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicRaces.htm#elans) yet? Thanks :) Checking the board and listing some pages with interesting info... Base Races(Human=10.5 FP)+Werepanther (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=4) Elves,Lizardfolk,Giants (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=5) also some words about Natural Weapons ** FP ECL table ** (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9892116&postcount=145) Natural Armor Bonus and DR (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=6) Orcs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=9) THRI-KREEN (keenath) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=10) Level drain+comments about FP (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=11) Half Giant,Powerful Build/slight Build, Kobolds, and Extra Limbs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=12)(more about Extra Limbs on the page 13) Xephs,Twilight characters creation rule (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=15) Second look to : Dodge bonus and Attribute Modifiers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=16) So that entry about Xephs can help.
YabaTheWhat 12-05-06, 04:03 PM	I believe the living construct subtype has been discussed here before, but I don't remember where. This is how I figure: Warforged Construct type (3 FP) Living Construct Subtype (53 FP) -does not need to breath (15 FP), sleep (16 FP), or eat (3 FP) -immune to disese (8 FP), poison (10 FP), paralysis (6 FP?), energy drain (4 FP?) -cannot heal naturaly (-3 FP) -can be affected by spells targeting creatures or constructs (-3 FP?) -healing spells have 1/2 benefit (-6 FP) -automatic stabalization 3 FP A +2 bonus on one ability, -2 penalties on two abilities (-2 FP) Medium (0 FP) Speed 30 feet (0 FP) Composite Plating (10 FP) +2 natural armor bonus (12 FP), no body slot for suits of armor or robes (-2 FP), can be enchanted as armor, 5% arcane spell failure chance. Light Fortification (1 FP?) 25% chance of converting damage from a critical hit or sneak attack to normal damage. Immunity to critical hits is only 5 FP, so this shouldn't be much Slam Attack (2 FP) Natural weapon slam 1d4 (1+1+4(-4)=6 (2) FP). Automatic Languages: Common. Bonus Languages: None (-0.5 FP) Since the humans' ability to choose any bonus langues has 0.5 FP, and 2 bonus skill points have 0.5 FP, I give -0.5 FP for no bonus languages, because a warforged would need to invest a skill point in any additional languages, if it decided to. Favored Class: Fighter (0 FP) Which adds up to 66.5 FP, LA +2 over powered. Not needing to sleep isn't worth nearly that much. Elves are immune to sleep, and only get 3 FP for it. Not needing to breathe is the big one, because it provides a number of immunities... though keep in mind that some of those immunities are redundant with other construct traits, reducing the overall value. Immunity to fatigue, if applicable, should be counted separately. Composite plating has no value. It is basically the equivalent of wearing light armor at all times, including all applicable bonuses and penalties. The warforged armor feats are a different matter, but they were poorly planned in the first place. Contrary to the trait description, warforged should be allowed to wear custom-fitted armor (double cost as per monster armor), taking the greater bonuses and harsher penalties as applicable. They do lose the magic armor/robe slot, but gain light fortification, which should balance as a package. Most of the benefits attributed to the living construct type above are actually benefits of the construct type which the living construct subtype does not remove. Immunities were difficult to balance. It is possible that the values of poison, disease, and breathing immunity are slightly overstated in the charts. Consider values of 8/6/12 respectively, with the value of water breathing taking an equal reduction to poison immunity. Still, overall, it does appear that the warforged are better off than a race with ECL=CL should be. Did you figure in Being venerable to certin spells that normal characters are down right immune to? The word you seek is vulnerable. Venerable refers to age categories.
Manyfist 12-05-06, 04:29 PM	The word you seek is vulnerable. Venerable refers to age categories. Ty, I suck at spelling :P.
Sylvaroth 12-05-06, 04:50 PM	Would anyone do the Shifters, please?:bigeyes:
Rerecros 12-05-06, 05:35 PM	:ahem: yabba ignored me again! you could've at least told me the values of some of the things I mentioned. Kage_no_Neko, I am not currently saying that there should be different costs for ability scores, just the costs for all ability scores should be increased equally. +2 anything and -2 anything is worth about 1FP. But strait +2 anything is worth more like 10 FP. I am trying to build a race that eventually gains magic immunity. To my under standing that is worth about 40+HD SR. What would be the cost of SR=HD + 4 SR every level, till level 10, when they gain magic immunity, which they can activate and deactivate just like SR?
MareltEkiran 12-06-06, 06:05 PM	Don't feel bad. My request got ignored too, but we should realize that the poor guy probably gets a lot of these requests on his plate.
aotrscommander 12-07-06, 05:37 PM	Exactly. And personally, I'd even rather he spend his precious time on working on the write up for the tables, rather than answering our questions, as it would hopefully reduce the amount of questions he gets asked! (I'd offer to help him, but my understanding's not good enough yet, and I'm very busy myself at the moment!) Patience is a virtue...and feature points are worth the wait...
Grey_Mage 12-07-06, 06:41 PM	+2 anything and -2 anything is worth about 1FP. But strait +2 anything is worth more like 10 FP. Actually I think this is fairly accurate... +2 to a single stat ends up being about the same as a feat in the end. I like how Yabad did it.
FreAkOuTRG 12-08-06, 04:10 PM	Never mind.
Sylvaroth 12-08-06, 05:59 PM	How much FP would the Shifters' shifting ability have?
Keenath 12-12-06, 09:51 AM	How much FP would the Shifters' shifting ability have? I'd say it's worth about the same as a level 2 spell as a once-per-day ability (with a swift casting time). That'd make it 7 FP. And if Shifter feats are a little overpowered, well, shifters are a little underpowered to start with.
Udnamtam 12-17-06, 10:05 PM	Sooo, considering how i dont want to wade through 18 pages of postings, and how theres no search feature (that i'm aware of) for these boards, has there been any discussion as far as the number of feature points per bonus power point a race gets?
Keenath 12-19-06, 12:13 AM	For Natural Psionics? I typically just say the 2-point version is effectively Wild Talent for free, which I think is worth 4 points. (It would be 5 -- 3 for a base feat and 2 for being the root of the whole psionics tree -- but you can also get psi from class levels, so I cut it a half-price break on the 'base feat' thing.) The 1-point version is worth 3 FP; it gives you all the benefits of having a PP pool -- ability to focus, ability to take psi feats -- and the difference between 1 and 2 power points is meaningless unless you actually take a class that uses them.
aotrscommander 01-06-07, 07:47 PM	Bump, because we really don't what this getting lost!
Lady Maedhros 01-08-07, 11:54 AM	The 1-point version is worth 3 FP; it gives you all the benefits of having a PP pool -- ability to focus, ability to take psi feats -- and the difference between 1 and 2 power points is meaningless unless you actually take a class that uses them. Hrm, what about the 1 per hit die version kalashtar get? I still don't pretend to particularly understand the value of a scaling bonus.
Nature-boy 01-08-07, 10:48 PM	What would you guys say is worth not needing a full 8 hours of rest to prepare spells? I'm thinking of letting elves prepare them after their 4 hour trance. I would guess only 1 FP since it doesn't really effect combat but only how frequently they cast spells. What do you think?
andinel 01-08-07, 11:50 PM	What would you guys say is worth not needing a full 8 hours of rest to prepare spells? I'm thinking of letting elves prepare them after their 4 hour trance. I would guess only 1 FP since it doesn't really effect combat but only how frequently they cast spells. What do you think? Correction: Elves still need 8 hours of rest to prepare spells. They only actually trance (in reverie) for 4 hours, but they need to rest for 4 more to get their spell slots back.
Dunelord 01-12-07, 01:59 AM	Correction: Elves still need 8 hours of rest to prepare spells. They only actually trance (in reverie) for 4 hours, but they need to rest for 4 more to get their spell slots back. He is talking about making a house rule to change that.
Keenath 01-15-07, 11:53 AM	Hrm, what about the 1 per hit die version kalashtar get? I still don't pretend to particularly understand the value of a scaling bonus. A bonus at a higher level is worth 1/3 per 2 levels of delay (that is, two levels above 1st). So a 3 point ability that you gain at 3rd level is worth 1 FP. Stated mathematically, the ability is worth its base cost times 1/3^((lvl-1)/2), where lvl is the level you gain the ability at. For something like the Kalashtar power points, it's the sum of the values of each level's ability. If we assume a power point is worth 1 FP, then the first level ability -- 1 PP plus all the attendant benefits of being psionic -- is 3 FP, plus the sum of 20 levels of gaining a PP per level. The total is 4.366 someodd, so I'll say Kalashtar style psi is worth about 4.5 FP.
aotrscommander 01-18-07, 07:52 PM	Can some generous soul just check as see if I've got this right this time? Both the following races are nonhumanoid; the first is basically a giant crow with falcon plus speed and agility; the latter is an intelligent Gryphon (as in my last post but right this time; hopefull!) I'm really most interested in the overall ECL for the given capabilities, since the races are expanded into monster classes and I want to check I've got the amount progression about right at the top of the class. Gagana Species Traits: • Magic Beast Type [3FP] • +4 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Cha [(22-9)+(30-9)+4-3 +6=41FP] • Large: -1 AC, -1 on attack rolls, -4 on Hide, +4 on Grapple, lifting and carrying capacity limits are double those of Medium creatures. [0FP] • Space/Reach: 10’/5’ [0FP] • Base Speed 20’; Fly 100’ (Good)[-4+68=64FP] • Racial Hit Dice: 2 levels of Magic Beast, providing 2D10 HD, BAB +2, Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +0 [10+18+9=37] • Racial Skills: A Gagana’s Magic Beast levels give it 5 x (2+ Int mod) skills. [3FP] • Racial Feats: A Gagana’s Magic Beast levels give it 1 Feat. [0FP] • Low-Light Vision (but not Darkvision) [1FP] • +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen [4FP] • +2 Natural Armour[12FP] • Damage Reduction 8/Slashing or Piercing [ad hoc 80% of DR/Pierce 21FP] • Natural Weapons: Two Claws (D8+Str) and one Gore1 (D10+ ½Str) [1+(9-5)+(9-5)+11=20FP] • Special Attacks (see above): Stoop [ad hoc 6FP] • Lack of Manipulation: [ad hoc -6FP] • Lack of equipment slots: All but 2 ring and amulet slots; cannot normally use weapons/armour [-14FP+ad hoc -8] Total FP: 184 (thus about Overpowered ECL 6 (+4 level adjustment) by Yaba's charts) Stoop (Ex):As a charge action when flying, the Gagana makes a triple move, and makes a Standard action attack, which deals double damage. If the Gagana misses the attack, it must continue it’s movement in a straight line. If it impacts the ground or other surface before completing it’s full movement, the Gagana takes the same amount of damage. In both cases, the Gagana can reduce this damage by Tumble checks and the Gagana’s DR. • Lack of Manipulation: Because of their lack of hands, Gaganas cannot use objects easily; they struggle even more than Gryphons. They suffer an effective –6 penalty to their Dexterity when attempting any taks that requires fine manipulation (most craft skills, picking a lock, etc). This is in addition to any penalties for equipment of the wrong size. To pick up and manipulate an object of three size categories smaller than them requires DC 10 Dexterity check (each round when doing anything more than holding it). The DC rises by +3 for each size category smaller the object is. 1Gagana beaks are designed to stab (think fishing birds, only not in water, but on Gryphons froma great height!) This seems a little high for it's comparative weakness. I guessed +2 LA myself when I wrote it. Maybe the penalties for not being able to use most equipment should be higher? I mean, I can understand that for a humanoid creature, those abilities are quite spectacular, but when you only have a beak and two claws? I really don't see five 2 HD Gagana standing up to a 6th level party as an even fight (given that partically everybody on the game world has to carry ranged attacks to deal with flying foes). * * * * * Gryphon Species Traits: • Magic Beast Type [3FP] • +8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Cha: [(99-49)+(49-9)+39-3+4+9=139] • Large Quadruped: -1 AC, -1 on attack rolls, -4 on Hide, +4 on Grapple, lifting and carrying capacity limits are triple those of Medium creatures.[0FP] • Space/Reach: 10’/5’ [0FP] • Base Speed 30’; Fly 80’ (Average): [48FP] • Racial Hit Dice: 7 levels of Magic Beast, providing 7D10 HD, BAB +7, Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2 [35+98+42=175] • Racial Skills: A Gryphon’s Magic Beast levels give it 10 x (2+ Int mod) skills. [8FP] • Racial Feats: A Gryphon’s Magic Beast levels give it 3 Feats. [0FP] •Low-Light Vision (but not Darkvision) [1FP] • +8 racial bonus on Spot; Gryphons have exceptional eyesight; they double all spotting ranges during daylight. [4+ad hoc 2FP] • +3 Natural Armour: [18FP] • Natural Weapons: Two Claws (D6+Str) and two Rakes (D6+ ½Str) and one Bite (2D6+ ½Str) [1+ 2x(7-5)+2x ad hoc 50% normal 3.5+14=26] • Special Attacks (see above): Improved Grab, Lethal Bite (see below), Pounce, Rake [ad hoc 6+6+6+6=24] • Lack of Manipulation: [ad hoc -6FP] • Lack of equipment slots: All but 2 ring and amulet slots; cannot use weapons/armour [-14FP+ad hoc -8] Lethal Bite (Ex): If a Gryphon starts the round with a target held in it’s claws, it may make a special bite attack at +4. This attack does not suffer the usual –4 penalty for attacking with natural weapons while grappling and the threat range of this attack is doubled. It may not make this attack if the target is held only by a single claw. • Lack of Manipulation: Because of their lack of hands, Gryphons cannot use objects easily. They suffer an effective –4 penalty to their Dexterity when attempting any taks that requires fine manipulation (most craft skills, picking a lock, etc). This is in addition to any penalties for equipment of the wrong size. To pick up and manipulate an object of three size categories smaller than them requires DC 10 Dexterity check (each round when doing anything more than holding it). The DC rises by +3 for each size category smaller the object is. Total FP: 423 (thus Balanced ECL 11 (+4 level adjustment) by Yaba's charts) (+3 LA is what I guessimated myself) Edit: now fixed with understanding of BAB tables, plus adjusted Lack on Manipultion and Stoop (I wouldn't have bothered editing, but I did link this thread to another with them in!). I think the LA on both of these is way too high considering the downsides of their inability to use most equipment; the Gagana's especially, is way too low for it's ECL. However, I also neglected to consider that these creatures are also supposed to be ECL = HD (as they are being expanded into monster classes).
sigma999 01-23-07, 02:38 PM	bump And I'm catchin up in volume of writing my own point-analysis of D&D... finished a cost chart of everything in the PHB on Excel. Does anyone know how to post a chart in its respective columns on HTML? Is that even possible?........ :confused:
Suzaku455 01-26-07, 11:53 AM	I was creating a race and I need to know the FP of this +2 to Spotting a disguise through the sense of smell and -2 to inhaled poison due to their sensitive nose. Qualification for a racial feat to gain the scent ability. Lastly I'm confused by the how attack bonus works, how much FP does a +2 Dex (with -2 con) with +2 range attack bonus (along with +2 damage) give?
Rerecros 01-26-07, 06:45 PM	I recently got myself to ebberron, The new base races are more powerful than other base races, but the fact they can't take dragon marked feats evens it out. Ebberron's raised power level is definitely going to throw off Yabba's system.
Kage_no_Neko 01-27-07, 12:01 PM	I recently got myself to ebberron, The new base races are more powerful than other base races, but the fact they can't take dragon marked feats evens it out. Ebberron's raised power level is definitely going to throw off Yabba's system. No it isn't. As long as all the characters start with the same effective level, as determined by whatever system you are using, the party should be fine. And as for not being able to take dragon marked feats evening things out, it doesn't. The feats are limited to a few families in any race, so unless you are taking aberrant dragon marked feats most characters will never get them unless they are part of those families. In addition, because they are actually feats, many players will never take them just because they have something else they are working on/towards.
The_Geek 01-29-07, 01:26 PM	Gagana IIRC, Large is worth 25 FP, not 0, under Yabba's system.
Suzaku455 01-29-07, 03:54 PM	I was creating a race and I need to know the FP of this +2 to Spotting a disguise through the sense of smell and -2 to inhaled poison due to their sensitive nose. Qualification for a racial feat to gain the scent ability. Lastly I'm confused by the how attack bonus works, how much FP does a +2 Dex (with -2 con) with +2 range attack bonus (along with +2 damage) give? No one answered my question :weep:
andinel 01-30-07, 01:18 AM	This is my second post here, and my first crack at actually doing anything with FP. It's a great idea, and I just have a couple of questions: 1. Is the PDF still the most current version of the FP rules? 2. I'm making this race for a campaign of mine. Could you tell me if I'm using FP in the right way here? Teil-unhold • Outsider (native) (3 FP) • Dex +2, Con +2, Cha +2 (4 FP + 4 FP + 4 FP = 12 FP) • Base speed 40 ft. (6 FP) • Fast healing 2 (28 FP) • +3 natural armor (18 FP) Total: 67 FP - ECL = 2 + CL, so LA +2 balanced Thanks for all the work on this, really.
YabaTheWhat 01-30-07, 08:13 AM	+2 to Spotting a disguise through the sense of smell and -2 to inhaled poison due to their sensitive nose. [0.5 FP] Qualification for a racial feat to gain the scent ability. [0.5 FP] Lastly I'm confused by the how attack bonus works, how much FP does a +2 Dex (with -2 con) with +2 range attack bonus (along with +2 damage) give? Qualifying for Scent is worth something, but since Scent itself is worth about the same as the stronger feats accessible at first level, the ability to acquire it isn't worth much by itself. The bonus to spot (though not actually spot per se) a disguise is a part-time bonus to a single skill. Half value usually works out fairly for circumstancial bonuses, provided the bonuses aren't active for more than half the standard uses of the skill. I'm answering your post because of your question about attack bonuses. Three factors award an increase in attack bonus. First applied is the BAB from racial hit dice. Second, apply any bonuses (or penalties) to attack rolls from ability score adjustments by subtracting the value of the old bonus from that of the new bonus. Third, apply any other modifiers, such as unnamed bonuses or conditional bonuses. There is an example located below the attack bonuses (BAB & generic) table. Note that, for the ability score adjustments, the highest score column applies to the actual ability score adjustment, ignoring the compounded calculations for attack bonuses. Also note that the order of application will not affect the outcome; the order is set for relative ease of use. So long as the principle is applied (apply the first bonus, then the change caused by each successive stacking bonus thereafter), the result will be the same. This is my second post here, and my first crack at actually doing anything with FP. It's a great idea, and I just have a couple of questions: 1. Is the PDF still the most current version of the FP rules? 2. I'm making this race for a campaign of mine. Could you tell me if I'm using FP in the right way here? Teil-unhold • Outsider (native) (3 FP) • Dex +2, Con +2, Cha +2 (4 FP + 4 FP + 4 FP = 12 FP) • Base speed 40 ft. (6 FP) • Fast healing 2 (28 FP) • +3 natural armor (18 FP) Total: 67 FP - ECL = 2 + CL, so LA +2 balanced Thanks for all the work on this, really. {1} Yes. Life obligations have basically forced me to put FP development on the back burner. It's one of the downsides of using my brain without getting paid. :twocents: {2} You left out the racial traits for being an Outsider. They have weapon proficiency in all simple [2 FP] & martial weapons [9 FP], and darkvision [3 FP], unless you specifically state otherwise. (The other Outsider benefits only apply to extraplanar Outsiders.) Beyond that, your evaluation looks fine.
aotrscommander 01-30-07, 11:06 AM	IIRC, Large is worth 25 FP, not 0, under Yabba's system. Yaba answered my query on that a page or so back: Large size (excluding reach), small size, or tiny size (including lost reach) are considered balanced as package deals. Any deviation beyond that requires separate calculation based on the individual benefits and drawbacks. For smaller sizes, the AC and attack bonuses build exponentially. For larger sizes, damage grows exponentially, and extended reach becomes unavoidable. I'm answering your post because of your question about attack bonuses. Three factors award an increase in attack bonus. First applied is the BAB from racial hit dice. Second, apply any bonuses (or penalties) to attack rolls from ability score adjustments by subtracting the value of the old bonus from that of the new bonus. Third, apply any other modifiers, such as unnamed bonuses or conditional bonuses. There is an example located below the attack bonuses (BAB & generic) table. Note that, for the ability score adjustments, the highest score column applies to the actual ability score adjustment, ignoring the compounded calculations for attack bonuses. Also note that the order of application will not affect the outcome; the order is set for relative ease of use. So long as the principle is applied (apply the first bonus, then the change caused by each successive stacking bonus thereafter), the result will be the same. Emphasis mine. Yaba, I really hate to ask this, but could you provided us with a step-by-step example? I have failed to make headway in comprehending the example in the PDF, especially the bit highlighted above. Edit: Clarification: I meant an example like that of in the PDF, just with the FP added in.
YabaTheWhat 01-30-07, 12:33 PM	Yaba, I really hate to ask this, but could you provided us with a step-by-step example? I have failed to make headway in comprehending the example in the PDF, especially the bit highlighted above. Edit: Clarification: I meant an example like that of in the PDF, just with the FP added in.Let's take an example like the one from the PDF and spread it out as much as possible. Just for simplification, we'll say the BAB comes from 3 outsider hit dice... not that the source acually matters. The creature has BAB+3, strength 14 (+2), dex 8 (-1), and a +2 luck bonus to attack rolls while its feet touch the ground. Start with the BAB. As the first feature evaluated, we use the straight numbers. BAB+3 is worth 30 FP. Next, we add the ability score adjustments. Normally we'd just go straight to 14 for strength and 8 for dexterity. However, because the creature has a base attack bonus (which we counted first), the ability score adjustments get more complicated. First, look at strength. The creature's strength bonus increases its attack from +3 to +5. Therefore we take the +5 bonus line, and subtract the +3 bonus line. This results in 30-15 = 15 FP for the strength bonus. Dexterity, rather than taking their attack from 0 to -1, takes it from +3 to +2 for a value of -15+9 = -6 FP. Lastly, we add the luck bonus. Presuming the creature doesn't fly, it will be on the ground most of the time, so the bonus carries full value. For melee, it would raise their attack from +5 to +7. Thus, in the melee column, we take 42 for the +7 bonus, and subtract 25 for the previous +5 bonus. For ranged attacks, we take 18 for the final +4 bonus, and subtract 7 for the previous +2 bonus. The result for the luck bonus is 42+18-25-7 = 28 FP. Going back to the ability scores, let's assume that the 14 (+2) to strength was its biggest bonus. Ignoring the calculations above, we take the highest score cost from the +4 ability score adjustment column, so the highest score is only worth 3 FP extra. If the creature had another ability score with a positive adjustment larger than the +4 from strength, use that line instead. The total would be 30 (bab) + 15 (str) - 6 (dex) + 28 (luck) = 67 FP, plus the bonus for the highest score, plus the value of any other features the creature possesses (including the remaining elements of the creature's hit dice). Does that clear things up?
Suzaku455 01-30-07, 04:23 PM	So +2 Dex -2 Con is 1FP Then for a racial bonus of +2 range attack bonus is 12 FP Thus a race with just this bonus is +13FP? Also you haven't answered my -2 save for inhaled posion. Also what about bonus to range attack damage adding a +2 or +1 to damage rolls.
aotrscommander 01-30-07, 07:56 PM	Let's take an example like the one from the PDF and spread it out as much as possible. Just for simplification, we'll say the BAB comes from 3 outsider hit dice... not that the source acually matters. The creature has BAB+3, strength 14 (+2), dex 8 (-1), and a +2 luck bonus to attack rolls while its feet touch the ground. Start with the BAB. As the first feature evaluated, we use the straight numbers. BAB+3 is worth 30 FP. With you to here. Next, we add the ability score adjustments. Normally we'd just go straight to 14 for strength and 8 for dexterity. However, because the creature has a base attack bonus (which we counted first), the ability score adjustments get more complicated. First, look at strength. The creature's strength bonus increases its attack from +3 to +5. Therefore we take the +5 bonus line, and subtract the +3 bonus line. This results in 30-15 = 15 FP for the strength bonus. Dexterity, rather than taking their attack from 0 to -1, takes it from +3 to +2 for a value of -15+9 = -6 FP. And this is where I got lost. I was thnking that because the ability score table was first, that the notes below the BAB table referred to the BAB table only and that you calcualted Str and Dex bonuses basically twice; once as a stat on the ability score table and again on the BAB table (which I thought sounded wrong.) When in fact really, you calculate the FP for Str and Dex bonuses during BAB calculations, not in addition to! Okay, let me write the rules up as I understand them in the next post.
aotrscommander 01-30-07, 07:57 PM	The Idiot's Guide to Calculating Feature Points (Written by idiots for idiots) Step 1) Calculate final melee and ranged attacks bonuses (i.e. BAB+Stat modifier + any other mods from abilities). Step 2) BAB FP: Go to the BAB table. Look up FP from BAB only in the BAB Bonus column. Step 3) Str FP: a) Add Str mod to BAB. b) Go to the Ability Score Table and look up the FP for that value (3a). c) Count a number of rows up th table (towards the top) equal to the Str modifier and find the FP value. If the modifier is negative, count the rows down. Subtract that number from 3b. This is the final Str FP cost. Step 4) Dex FP: a) Add Dex mod to BAB. b) Go to the Ability Score Table and look up the FP for that value (4a). c) Count a number of rows up the table (towards the top) equal to the Str modifier and find the FP value. If the modifier is negative, count the rows down. Subtract that number from 4b. This is the final Dex FP cost. Step 5) Additonal attack modifiers: a) Go to the BAB table. Take the final melee attack bonus from Step 1 and look up the FP for that value on the Melee column. b) Look up the value in the Melee column for the FP of the final value, less the attack modifer you are working on (i.e. if you only have one additional bonus, equal to BAB+Str mod). Subtract that number from 5a. This is the melee FP value for that attack modifier. Repeat as necessary for other melee attack modifiers. c) Take the final ranged attack bonus from Step 1 and look up the FP for that value on the Ranged column. d) Look up the value in the Ranged column for the FP of the final value, less the attack modifer you are working on (i.e. if you only have one additional bonus, equal to BAB+Str mod). Subtract that number from 5a. This is the ranged FP value for that attack modifier. Repeat as necessary for other Ranged attack modifiers. Step 6) Con, Int, Wis, Cha FP: Consult the relevant lines of the Ability Score Table. Step 7) Highest Stat FP: Find the value of the race’s largest stat modifier and note the FP cost in the Highest column of the Ability Score Table. Step 8) Racial Hit Dice: Got to the Racial Hit Dice Table. a) Determine the number of Good saves the racial HD levels grant. Calculate the FP per HD (double cost for 1st HD). b) Determine the number of skill point per level the racial HD levels grant. Calculate the FP per HD (double cost for 1st HD). c) Calculate the FP of the Hit Dice die type per racial HD level. Step 8) Skill bonus: Go to the Skills & Feats table. Calculate the FP value of any racial bonus to skills (most skills will be Standard.) Step 9) Feats: Calculate the FP from the Feat Aspect table for any bonus feats the race has. (Do not include level- based feats from racial HD). Step 10) Consult the remaining tables for any other racial traits. Notes: A non-humanoid creature type is worth 3 FP plus the value of any features or traits awarded to the creature by its type and/or racial hit dice. For features with listed increments, the features supplied to creatures generally include at least one increment. For example, fast healing 2 has 2 increments of 1 point each, plus the base cost (2x8+12 = 28 FP). Darkvision 60 ft has 1 increment of 60 ft, plus the base cost (1x1+2 = 3 FP), while darkvision 120 ft has 2 increments plus the base cost (2x1+2 = 4 FP). A creature with darkvision but no increments has darkvision in its own square(s) only. A creature with fast healing but no increments has instant stabilization but heals significantly less than 1 HP per round, if at all. Low-light vision, scent, and other such abilities have increments. Low-Light's default is 2x light source, and scent's default is 30 ft (6 increments). Note that the value of each increment is listed directly below the name of any feature where intervals are not defined as fixed integers. Large size (excluding reach), small size, or tiny size (including lost reach) are considered balanced as package deals. Any deviation beyond that requires separate calculation based on the individual benefits and drawbacks. Example: Flibblite Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2, Cha -2 Two levels of Magical Beast (2D10 HD, Good Fort and Reflexes save, BAB of +2, Darkvision 60' Low Light Vision). +4 bonus to Climb, +1 to all Knowledge skills, +3 bonus to Craft (Cheesey Muppet Trap) Improved Initative as a bonus feat. +2 Penguin bonus to melee attack rolls +1 Stupidity bonus to all attack rolls. 1) Final melee attack bonus will be 2 (BAB) + 2 (Str) + 2 (Penguin) + 1 (Stuipity) = +7. Final ranged attack bonus will be 2 (BAB) + 1 (Dex) + 1 (Stuipity)= +2 2) BAB FP: A BAB of 2 is worth 18 FP (BAB table). 3) Str FP: a) 2 (BAB)+2 (Str mod)= 4 b) The FP for a bonus of 4 is 22(Ability Score Table) c) We count two rows up the table (+2 Str mod) for an FP cost of 9(Ability Score Table). 22-9 = 13 Str FP is therefore 13. 4) Dex FP: a) 2 (BAB) -1 (Dex mod) = 1 b) The FP for a bonus of 1 is 4(Ability Score Table) c) We count one rows down the table (-1 Dex mod) for an FP cost of 9 (Ability Score Table). 4-9= -5 Dex FP is therefore -5. 5) Additonal attack modifiers: a) Final melee attack bonus is +7 and therefore 42 FP. b I) FP for Penguin bonus. Penguin bonus is +2, so we look up the FP for a melee attack bonus of (7-2 = 5) or 25 FP. 42-25= 17 FP for a +2 Penguin bonus to melee. b II) FP for Stuipidity bonus. Stupidity bonus is +1, so we look up the FP for a melee attack bonus of (5 (from the previous calculation)-1 = 4) or 18 FP. 25-18 = 7FP. c) Final ranged attack bonus is +2 and therefore 7 FP. d) The penguin bonus only applies to melee, so we're only interested in the Stupidity bonus. Stupidity bonus is +1, so we look up the FP for a ranged attack bonus of (2-1 = 1) or 3FP. 7-3 = 4 FP. 6) Con FP is 4, Cha is -3. [B]7) Highest Stat FP: The highest ability score modifier is +4 Str (+2 bonus), which incurs a highest cost of 3 FP) 8) Racial Hit Dice: Got to the Racial Hit Dice Table. a) Magic Beast has 2 good saves, so FP is (3 x 2)1st HD + 3 (2nd HD) = 9FP. b) Magic Bbeast has skill points per level, so FP is (1 x 2)1st HD + 1 (2nd HD) = 3FP. c) FP cost for 2D10 HD is 10FP. 8) Skill bonus: +4 to Climb is worth (0.5 x 4) = 2 FP. +1 to all Knowledge skills is worth (1 x 1) 1 FP. +3 Craft (Cheesey Muppet Trap) is worth (3 x 0.25) = 0.75 FP. [B]9) Feats: Improved Initiative is a basic feat with no prerequites so is worth 3 FP. 10) Flibbilites have: Magical Beast type = 3 FP. 60' Darkvision (2 for Darkvsion + 1 for one increment of 60') = 3 FP. Low Light Vision (x2 light source, so minimum increment of 2) = 1 FP. So the final FP total is: 18 (BAB) + 13 (Str) -5 (Dex) +17 (Penguin bonus) + 7 (Stupidity bonus melee) + 4 (Stupidity bonus ranged) +4 (Con) -3 (Cha) +3 (highest stat) +9 (Saves) + 3 (Skills) + 10 (HD) + 2+1+0.75 (racial skills) +3 (Improved Initative) +3 (Magic Beast) +3 (Darkvision) +1 (Low Light Vision) =96.75 FP According to the Feature Point by ECL table, this puts Flibbilties as overpowered ECL 3; including racial HD, this is an overpowered LA +1. Edit: fixed errors. Is that, by and large, correct?
YabaTheWhat 01-30-07, 09:35 PM	Flibblite Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2, Cha -2 Two levels of Magical Beast (2D10 HD, Good Fort and Reflexes save, BAB of +2, Darkvision 60' Low Light Vision). +4 bonus to Climb, +1 to all Knowledge skills, +3 bonus to Craft (Cheesey Muppet Trap) Improved Initative as a bonus feat. +2 Penguin bonus to melee attack rolls +1 Stupidity bonus to all attack rolls. Is that, by and large, correct? You only slipped in two spots, aotrscommander. First, the highest ability score is a +4 adjustment, resulting ni a +2 bonus, for only 3 FP (step 7). Second, the system calculates ECL, which includes racial hit dice. This race would be on the border between LA+1 overpowered and LA+2 underpowered, with two racial hit dice. You appear to have a good grasp of the system at this point. Thank you for the step-by-step example; it will help for future reference. While I had originally hoped to avoid complex math (such as the current calculation of stacked attack bonuses) for the sake of general use, it became necessary in order to compensate for a number of incongruencies in the D&D 3.5 rules themselves.
aotrscommander 01-31-07, 04:59 AM	You only slipped in two spots, aotrscommander. First, the highest ability score is a +4 adjustment, resulting ni a +2 bonus, for only 3 FP (step 7). Second, the system calculates ECL, which includes racial hit dice. This race would be on the border between LA+1 overpowered and LA+2 underpowered, with two racial hit dice. You appear to have a good grasp of the system at this point. Thank you for the step-by-step example; it will help for future reference. While I had originally hoped to avoid complex math (such as the current calculation of stacked attack bonuses) for the sake of general use, it became necessary in order to compensate for a number of incongruencies in the D&D 3.5 rules themselves. Oops! When time allows, I'll go back and fix that...it was starting to get late while I came to the end, there. Edit: Fixed.
sigma999 02-01-07, 12:31 AM	{1} Yes. Life obligations have basically forced me to put FP development on the back burner. It's one of the downsides of using my brain without getting paid. Uhhhh I hate that. :weep: I was recently "laid off" and can't keep the attention I once had for typing rows of words as I did last fall, for that same reason as you have Yaba. Making new D&D material just doesn't have the appeal as it does when I know I can pay the bills and take my girl out to dinner too.... Just seems like, I dunno, a waste of time? So I fill my days with job hunts. And reading. :rolleyes:
Suzaku455 02-01-07, 01:15 AM	aotrscommander steps 3/4 seems to be very confusing the way it was written Did you mean a) Add str/dex mod to Bab b) Goto to the ability table and scroll down to the bonus column to the number you got from (3/4a). Record the FP value and move onto c). c) While on the same row count the number of rows up the table (towards the top as the bonus lowers) equal to the Str/Dex modifier and find the value. If the modifier is negative count the rows down.
aotrscommander 02-01-07, 07:54 AM	aotrscommander steps 3/4 seems to be very confusing the way it was written Did you mean a) Add str/dex mod to Bab b) Goto to the ability table and scroll down to the bonus column to the number you got from (3/4a). Record the FP value and move onto c). c) While on the same row count the number of rows up the table (towards the top as the bonus lowers) equal to the Str/Dex modifier and find the value. If the modifier is negative count the rows down. Pretty much. That was actually the hardest part of the instructions to write. (And why specifically I did the example, because sometimes you need one if a concept is difficult to explain in just words.)
Suzaku455 02-07-07, 02:31 PM	OK this is the racial stats of Kulu a race I made. Kulu Medium Humanoid Base Land Speed: 30ft LA: 0 Alignment: Usually chaotic good although many can be lawful or chaotic evil +2 Dexterity -2 Constitution: Kulus are agile but frail Dark Vision to 60 feet, Kulu often hunt in the middle of the night even in moonless light and including hunting in caves for fish like creatures called Sahagins. +1 Spot, Listen and Survival Although Kulu have keen senses they can sometimes be easily distracted. +2 Balance: Kulu tails provide a natural source of balance. Sensitive Nose: Because of their potent sense of smell they can identify familiar smells and gain +2 spot check against disguise checks. However they also gain –2 fort save against inhaled poisons. -2 Sense Motive: Because of their lack of dealing with other nations and their naïve attitudes they are much easier to fool Bow Strength (Su): As a super natural ability Kulu have much greater insight in use of their bows giving them +1 attack rolls and +2 damage. Special Armor: Because of their tail Kulus require specially made or modified medium and heavy armor because of their tail. Hastily modifying armor for Kulu risk a chance to destroying magical armor. The base price of medium and heavy armor for Kulu is doubled. Survival is always a class skill Claws: Although Kulu are born with claws they’re not strong or long enough to be treated as natural weapons instead a Kulu could choose to do unarmed as slashing or bludgeon damage all other unarmed attack rules apply. Kulu Fall: Kulus are treated falling 10 feet short before jump and tumble checks. (Often referred as feline fall) This stacks with monk’s slow fall Racial feat Scent: As a selectable feat can gain scent ability as described from Monster Manual, and remains in effect even polymorphed or wildshaped. Using the feature points this is what I got Racial Ablity 2 dex -2 con (0 fp) Range Attack Bonus: 3 FP Skills (3 FP total) +2 Balance 1 FP +1 Spot Listen and Survival 1.5 FP +2 Spot checks against disguise .5 FP Feats (7 FP Total?) 2 Martial Range Proficiencies 2FP +2 Range Damage 5FP??? Special 3.5 FP total Darkvision 60ft 3FP Racial qualification for scent special ability is 0.5FP Although I'm not sure the +2 damage to range but it resembled weaponed specializations which is a 4th level fighter feat and required a one feat to qualify. However there are some stuff below I'm not exactly sure the FP cost. Claw: Although not strong and long enough to be considered to be natural attacks their unarmed attack is considered slashing or bludgeon damage. This choice must be made before the attack roll is complete. All other normal unarmed rules apply ???FP -2 Fort Saves against inhaled poisons or stench attacks (such as troglodyte’s stench) -???FP Kulu fall: 10ft slow fall no wall is needed to be within reach and, stacks with monk’s slow fall. ???FP Special Armor: Because of their tail Kulus require specially made or modified medium and heavy armor because of their tail. Hastily modifying armor for the Kulu risk a chance to destroying magical armor and the base price of medium and heavy armor for Kulu is doubled. -???FP (I’m thinking -0.5fp or 1fp) Survival always a class skill: ???FP -2 Sense motive ?? FP
Suzaku455 02-11-07, 07:48 PM	bump
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 12:33 PM	I don't have the time to slog through 500+ posts and find the values for things. Has this been summarized anywhere? If not I guess I will just keep an eye on the thread and hope someday it is.
chitzk0i 02-16-07, 01:08 PM	No, there's no summary. I remember Yabba talking about that on at least one occasion. He can't understand why there's such demand for a summarized version.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-16-07, 01:21 PM	I have a slew of races for my homebreww and I would rather work on them myself at home then post them on here and take up someone elses' time with it. The little I have seen on this thread seems logical and thoughtful so I would like to see the system.
JarionSilverblades 02-16-07, 01:56 PM	NJÁLSBRANDUR NJÁLSBRANDUR RACIAL TRAITS ● -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity: Njálsbrandur are agile, but because of their small size a njálsbrandur is not as strong as medium humanoids. [0 FP] ● Small: As a Small creature, a Njálsbrandur gains a +1 size bonus to armor class, a +1 bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but she uses smaller weapons then humans use, and her lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. [0 FP] ● Njálsbrandur’s base land speed is 20 feet. [0FP] ● Low-Light Vision: An Njálsbrandur can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retain the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. [1 FP] ● +1 racial bonus on all saving throws: Njálsbrandur’s have an inherited ability to avoid mishaps. [6 FP] ● +2 racial bonus on Bluff and Diplomacy checks: Njálsbrandurs are quite eloquent. [2 FP] ● The Spirit Cycle. [-3 FP] ● Spell-Like Ability: A Njálsbrandur with a charisma score of at least 10 has the following spell-like ability: 1/day charm person, Caster level equal to character level; save DC 10 + Njálsbrandur’s Charisma modifier + spell level. See spell description on PH page 209. [4 FP] ● Automatic Languages: Common and Njálsbrandur. Bonus Languages: All, Njálsbrandurs are skilled linguistics. [1 FP] ● Favored Class: Swashbuckler. A multiclass Njálsbrandur’s Swashbuckler class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. [0 FP] The Spirit Cycle: The cycle of life for njálsbrandurs is more complicated them most. When a njálsbrandur breathes his last, wether this is caused by age, illness, mortal wounds or other cause, the njálsbrandur’s soul is reincarnated as a yet to be born njállbrandr. Njállbrandrs have no conscious memory of any past lives they may have had, but some times a njálsbrandur may recall something that they knew in their past life, these rare memories are called “Ghost moments. A “Ghost moment” is (but not limited to) when meeting someone they once knew, while being in a place they once stayed, or hearing a song they once enjoyed, a njálsbrandur has a 5% chance of recalling an event, name, or location, from their spirit’s past life, (a njálsbrandur only has ghost moments from there last life, no others). Njálsbrandurs are not affected by, any spell, spell-like ability, or effects that restores the dead to life (this includes, but is not limited to, Miracle, Raise dead, Reincarnate, Resurrection, or Wish spells). Njálsbrandurs are still effected by spells, spell-like effects and special attacks that create undead, the only difference is that undead njálsbrandurs have no soul, they instead have what is called a Necro-imprint. A Necro-imprint is a soul like entity created of negative energy, this imprint possesses all of the njálsbrandur’s memories, skills and abilities. Total 11 FP I don't know if this is right. :duel:
aotrscommander 02-16-07, 05:53 PM	I have a slew of races for my homebreww and I would rather work on them myself at home then post them on here and take up someone elses' time with it. The little I have seen on this thread seems logical and thoughtful so I would like to see the system. Yaba's sig contains the link to the PDFs with the raw data charts, and with my tutorial, you should (I hope) be able to make some headway. For anything more exotic, just do what I do and guestimate if you don't want to trawl through it all in the hope someone's asked a similar question!
YabaTheWhat 02-16-07, 10:31 PM	I don't know if this is right. The spirit cycle looks like 0 FP self-balancing. It gives a minor benefit and a similarly minor drawback. Neither one is likely to come into play very often. For ability scores, a +2 bonus is worth 4 FP, while a -2 penalty is worth -3 FP, for a net value of 1 FP. Thus your calculated total should be 15 FP, not 11 FP. I don't have the time to slog through 500+ posts and find the values for things. Has this been summarized anywhere? If not I guess I will just keep an eye on the thread and hope someday it is.Yaba's sig contains the link to the PDFs with the raw data charts, and with my tutorial, you should (I hope) be able to make some headway. For anything more exotic, just do what I do and guestimate if you don't want to trawl through it all in the hope someone's asked a similar question! Most of the thread itself is a combination of the following: >> Explanations why the rules are the way they are. >> Evolution of the system. >> Questions on specific features. >> People posting requests for evaluation, and evaluations of those requests (either by me or by those who picked up the slack when my time got tight). >> Complaints, specifically people disagreeing either with specific values in the FP system or with the use of a points system in general. While there are certainly a number of helpful posts along the way, most of the basics are covered by the charts and the tutorial, as stated in the quoted text above.
JarionSilverblades 02-17-07, 08:26 PM	I have a race that I want to have a better land speed then 30 ft, I had given them 40ft land speed but was told it was to much. Someone then suggested I give them longstrider as a SLA, what I want know is what the FP value is for Longstrider if the race gains an extra use every 5 levels, and would it be better just to give them 40 ft land speed. ● Spell-like Abilities: 1/day-speak with animals (Felines only, duration 1 minute), 1/day-longstrider (duration 5 minutes, gain one additional use per 5-levels, max 5/day). See spell description on PH pages 249 and 281.
Pyke_Moonshadow 02-20-07, 08:28 AM	Thanks, you guys rock.
aotrscommander 02-20-07, 09:22 AM	What would the FP cost be for armour and shield proficiencies? (Including, for say, one specific sort of armour, e.g. splint mail?) I'm guessing it would be similar to martial weapon proficiency...? And for treating a skill as 'always a class skill'?
Suzaku455 02-21-07, 03:17 PM	OK I have yet to receive a reply for my questions questions for FP values of these below. +1 range damage +2 range damage -2 Sense Motive (I'm betting - 0.5FP) Survival always a class skill -2 Fort Saves aganist inhaled posions. Also I'm treating unarmed attack does slashing or bludgeoning damage, the user's choice (while following all other unarmed rules) Or -1 for saves to poisons (race already has -2 con)
aotrscommander 03-01-07, 01:02 PM	Bump...
sigma999 03-02-07, 11:35 PM	In regards to an earlier post (page 11 by my view) the Excel sheet I mentioned with every PHB feat priced out to the d20 point system I invented has been finished, and will be posted soon. It's not to Yabba's system but very close (convergent evolution?) so maybe it will bring new perspectives. Excel allows exporting to HTML, by the way, which makes my task a lot easier :x Unfortunately, I'm not near my own computer right now, so maybe this weekend if I have time...
Airos 03-04-07, 08:50 PM	I'm not sure if anyone else has had the same "problem" or not, but I can't print out the document. Under the security settings of the document, it says that it's not allowed and I'm asked to enter in a password to change any of the settings. Was this done intentionally, or do I have some weird bug with my copy only? Thanks in advance for any help regarding this matter.
sigma999 03-08-07, 08:30 PM	Haven't tried printing, sorry. No need to really. :P My spreadsheet with an alternative list for feat pricing is over 100k words.. the forum limit is 50k. Therefore, I must link to my geocities page where you may download it... please don't drain my 5-mb-per-hour allowance bandwidth by NOT downloading it and then viewing repeatedly :weep: http://boards1.wizards.com/leaving.php?destination=http://geocities.com/endymionbluemusic/d20twilightfeatcosts3_1_07.html Maybe there's another way I can present it.. Oh, and the d20 classless system that it goes to is discussed here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10072747 And the Wiki page it is found on (for now) is here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/D20_twilight
Bluescale 03-10-07, 02:37 AM	I'm trying to create a low LA Tiny fairy race (i.e. one that doesn't have an ECL of 5 and 3 hp) without making it totally unplayable. I've come up with a flaw to add to it and I was wondering how powerful you think it is (and how many negative FP it's worth). Iron Intolerance: Contact with items made of iron (holding, wearing, being restrained by) results in the character suffering the effects of exhaustion. Effects end when item is no longer in contact with body. I'm trying to offset the ability to fly (since I believe a fairy-like creature should be able to hover, and hovering requires good or better maneuverability). To this end, I've also been staggering out spell-like abilities, learning one spell from a set of 0-level spells to use 1/day every 4 character levels. I'm hoping to at least make it an LA +1 race, since I probably can't get it to LA +0 without something like -6 Str, -6 Con, no attribute bonuses, no spell-like abilities, no resistances of any kind, penalties on skills, etc., and I doubt many people would want to play that.
Angel Black 03-22-07, 12:06 PM	Sounds like a good idea...by the way I wonder about the LA of a Lantern Archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon). I think they can't wear ANY items at all,but they got pretty impressive features.
Khadmus 04-05-07, 02:18 PM	I think that perhaps races with single abilities sort of break. (Your chart is an early prototype, but meh) Extreme Example: Summon Monster VIII at will. 37 FP. +1 LA. You can probably think of others.
Keenath 04-05-07, 04:33 PM	Sounds like a good idea...by the way I wonder about the LA of a Lantern Archon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon). I think they can't wear ANY items at all,but they got pretty impressive features. I've never gotten a decent rating on the FP value of being unable to wear armor, or of being unable to weild weapons. For example, I tried at one point to make an akki race, mountain dwelling goblinoid monsters. They have a huge hard spiked shell -- some good natural armor, but can't wear normal armor. But I don't know what kind of point return is appropriate for a thing like that.
Strogg 04-05-07, 10:33 PM	Can you apply the sytem to figure out what this would be. Racial bonuses: +2 listen, +2 jump checks, +4 str +2 con, -2 wis, -2 cha, Feat/abilities Scent, claws 1d6 each (2), 40 speed darkvision 60ft natural armor +2 alignment: any chaotic languages usual name i havent determined yet. so can you do it?
The_Geek 04-06-07, 01:32 PM	I've never gotten a decent rating on the FP value of being unable to wear armor, or of being unable to weild weapons. I'm going to guess it's a wash, i.e. no points. Can't wear armour? That probably means Monk, Wizard or Sorceror (or Psion). And probably rules out the tank classes - Paladin, Fighter, Cleric. The intermediate bunch - Barbarian (Med), Rogue, Bard ... well, it's probably up to the player's discretion. BTW, the AC you can generate with Monk (Ninja/SS), Battledancer, and Duelist, or Feats (Canny Defense, Brute) are scary ... who needs armour? Can't wield weapons? Again, probably leads into the same classes - Monk, Wizard and Sorceror. (or Psion). Really excludes Paladins, Fighters and Barabarians. Bard, Rogue? Probably not. So, much like Kobolds aren't going to Paladins, the balance changes class choices, but doesn't affect the overall LA.
Yuri_Zhivago 04-06-07, 03:33 PM	Can you apply the sytem to figure out what this would be. To be totally blunt, it's better if you do it yourself: it will give you an understanding of the system, and frequenters of the thread will gladly correct you if they see something wrong. Also, it gives everyone working to develop the system more practical instances to use in deremining the system's effectiveness. The link to the PDF is in Yaba's sig, and somewhere in one of the posts in the middle of the thread. Yuri
Keenath 04-06-07, 06:58 PM	I'm going to guess it's a wash, i.e. no points. Can't wear armour? That probably means Monk, Wizard or Sorceror (or Psion)... Can't wield weapons? Again, probably leads into the same classes - Monk, Wizard and Sorceror. (or Psion)... Your logic doesn't work. You might as well say a -2 STR is worth nothing because it doesn't hurt casters. All advantages benefit only some classes; all disadvantages hurt some classes more than others. That doesn't mean they aren't worth points.
Keenath 04-06-07, 07:11 PM	Can you apply the sytem to figure out what this would be. 2 FP for skills 10 FP for ability scores 33 FP for special attacks and qualities Total of 45 FP, a strong +1 LA If you want to know how I got it, figure it out yourself.
Strogg 04-06-07, 08:04 PM	how many fp would regeneration 1 or regeneration 3 be worth?
dagman 04-06-07, 08:19 PM	how many points is being blind be as in no natural vision always blind
Keenath 04-06-07, 10:48 PM	how many fp would regeneration 1 or regeneration 3 be worth? Look at the doc, there's a table that tells you exactly that.
Keenath 04-06-07, 11:22 PM	how many points is being blind be as in no natural vision always blindWell, this is only a rough approximation, but... The Grimlock is a +2 LA creature with 2 hit dice, for a total ECL of 4. That puts it in the 108 to 123 range, with an absolute maximum of 131. By my calcuations, all its abilities (excluding Blindness and its associated immunities) add up to about 151 FP, which would put the package of Blindness and its immunities at a maximum of -20 FP. However, that seems like a lot of points. If we assume the designers were a bit off, and Grimlocks really deserve a +3 LA, then they'd be ECL 5, in the 140-156 range, right dead center. Assuming they total up to a weak ECL 5, the package would be worth a maximum of -10 to -15 points. Those came in pretty close together, even so, so I'll go out on a limb and give you this conclusion: It looks like the package deal of Blindness and immunity to gaze and visual effects adds up to about -15 FP.
Angel Black 04-09-07, 04:46 PM	Quick Index Base Races(Human=10.5 FP)+Werepanther (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=4) Elves,Lizardfolk,Giants (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=5) also some words about Natural Weapons ** FP ECL table ** (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9892116&postcount=145) Natural Armor Bonus and DR (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=6) Orcs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=9) THRI-KREEN (keenath) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=10) Level drain+comments about FP (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=11) Half Giant,Powerful Build/slight Build, Kobolds, and Extra Limbs (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=12)(more about Extra Limbs on the page 13) Xephs,Twilight characters creation rule (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=15) Second look to : Dodge bonus and Attribute Modifiers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=16) Shifters & Warforged (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=17) The Idiot's Guide to Calculating Feature Points (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=18) Feat pricing,and Classless system (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11710682&postcount=561)
Sylvaroth 04-15-07, 03:22 PM	Are there 'updated' FP ratings for the core classes, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs? If so, could you please provide a link to the post?
sigma999 04-15-07, 08:56 PM	It looks like the package deal of Blindness and immunity to gaze and visual effects adds up to about -15 FP. Are you being sarcastic? Because if not, "your logic doesn't work". As a normal sighted character I would be immune to anything affecting my eyes because by becoming blind I would be gaining an advantage and require the acquisition of this trait, which of course I can't afford with FP. Therefore, I can stab my eyes or gouge with weasels or pour HCl but to no avail, it would be an advantage I can't afford? I understand the attempt to account for that, I'm having trouble pricing movement rates for races with my own point system, but can't decide if I should account for everything (like size Medium, move 30 feet, 2 arms + 2 legs, senses, etc) or just assume that a healthy adult human is the default (something that itches me bad but I can't quite figure a way around it!) All I recommend is reconsider that, think about it for a while.
Keenath 04-15-07, 09:04 PM	Are you being sarcastic? Because if not, "your logic doesn't work".This should be good. As a normal sighted character I would be immune to anything affecting my eyes because by becoming blind I would be gaining an advantage and require the acquisition of this trait, which of course I can't afford with FP. No, you can afford it. Negative values represent net penalties, such as a "-2 STR" costing -3 FP. A -15 package indicates that the combination of the benefits and weaknesses is STRONGLY towards the "weak" side, making this a bad thing, which gives you extra points with which to buy abilities that benefit you -- like blindsight and scent, for example. But thanks for playing, and you'll get a copy of our home game. ;)
sigma999 04-15-07, 09:28 PM	Keeny, that makes as much sense as THAC0 ever did.
Keenath 04-15-07, 09:32 PM	Keeny, that makes as much sense as THAC0 ever did. What? How is it illogical that negative values represent bad things and positive values are helpful things? Anyway, I didn't invent the system, I'm just telling you how it works.
sigma999 04-15-07, 11:52 PM	Well, I mean that if you have a Feature Point system, the word "points" implies a positive value. Usually. The accumulation of points is good, the deficit bad. Maybe I was just mistaken in this, but for some people (or is it most?) seeing a - sign next to a number means you don't want whatever it is. School grades, money, work hours, inventory, everything except gas prices (except for the sellers) means bad and undesirable. The concept of exchanging racial and class abilities I love, and for that I really respect Yaba's efforts in producing such a full solution to the joke that is WOTC's attempt at "balance", and your (Keenath) near-constant interpretation of that system. Specifically, by default the blindness of creatures such as Grimlock or Destrachan are only marginally compensated for by the addition Blindsight, which adds to CR without considering the fact that these poor critters CAN'T SEE! This FP system, even though the point values sometimes compare to each other oddly IMHO, is one of those few valid fixes I see in an ocean of sloppily proposed solutions. End monologue.
Keenath 04-16-07, 01:01 AM	Well, I mean that if you have a Feature Point system, the word "points" implies a positive value. Usually. The accumulation of points is good, the deficit bad.Well, I don't know that I can speak to your point of view, but in every point-based RPG system I've EVER SEEN, abilities and powers are positive -- the point values you use most -- and penalties, disadvantages, and weaknesses are negatives, representing a reduction in the value of the character. The paradigm here is calculating the "cost of the character", not "modification of your point-pool". You don't have a tub full of points to be distributed; you select the powers you want and then find out what the character is "worth". Higher points mean higher worth; lower points mean a lower character value. Feature Points are neither good nor bad -- they're just a metric. It's a bit like saying 25 degrees F is better than 12 degrees F, or 10 feet is inferior to eighteen inches. The FP system is just a yardstick that tells you where a given list of abilities should fall on the ECL scale.
Yuri_Zhivago 04-16-07, 11:01 AM	Well, I don't know that I can speak to your point of view, but in every point-based RPG system I've EVER SEEN, abilities and powers are positive -- the point values you use most -- and penalties, disadvantages, and weaknesses are negatives, representing a reduction in the value of the character. If I may. My personal opinion is that you're both right, to different degrees. Sigma, you are right about the social connotations of the minus sign. Likewise, you're dead center on your evaluation of the grimlock based on what WOTC says. And I must agree, it looks about right to me. But have you applied that to any other blind race? Keenath, you're right about what we're used to seeing points do in RPGs. Is that what we really want? I was under the impression that Yaba was trying to fill a niche that had not yet been adequately filled for designers. Right now, save Yaba's system, the best way I know to analzye new critters is to use them on a long term basis, which isn't all that efficient. Hope I gave you both a new perspective. Yuri
Keenath 04-16-07, 08:06 PM	My personal opinion is that you're both right, to different degrees. Sigma, you are right about the social connotations of the minus sign. ... Keenath, you're right about what we're used to seeing points do in RPGs. Is that what we really want? I was under the impression that Yaba was trying to fill a niche that had not yet been adequately filled for designers.He is right about perception, yes, but that same argument can be applied to any point based system -- Savage World, Mutants & Masterminds, BESM, World of Darkness... they all work the same way. Positive values are positive for the character, and make the character more expensive; negative values are penalties that make you less effective. Social connotations or not, that's something I think most RPG players are pretty used to. And either way, it's irrelevant; he just made a statement that was based on a false understanding of how the system worked, and misinterpreted my comments as a result. As to whether we 'want' it or not, that's not relevant. The system Yaba made is the system Yaba made, and I'm not about to go around swapping signs because somebody thinks it's more logical to do it the other way. I personally think it's imminently logical the way it's written, and reversing it would be confusing -- most of your numbers would be negative, and you'd end up with a negative value (in virtually all cases) for the final sum of your race's abilities. And that, using the "social convention" of negative-is-bad, makes it sound like your race gets worse and worse as you tack on more and more powers, which is insane. Likewise, you're dead center on your evaluation of the grimlock based on what WOTC says. And I must agree, it looks about right to me. But have you applied that to any other blind race?In general, at least from my perspective, blindness plus blindsight is a much smaller penalty for a "monster" than a PC. A PC is going to have issues with reading things, with distance detection of enemies, with colors, and so on. A monster -- well, really, when your reason for existence is to fight the PCs for about a minute, those don't really come up, and the blindsight more than makes up for the blindness.
sigma999 04-16-07, 08:07 PM	If I may. My personal opinion is that you're both right, to different degrees. Sigma, you are right about the social connotations of the minus sign. Likewise, you're dead center on your evaluation of the grimlock based on what WOTC says. And I must agree, it looks about right to me. But have you applied that to any other blind race? Keenath, you're right about what we're used to seeing points do in RPGs. Is that what we really want? I was under the impression that Yaba was trying to fill a niche that had not yet been adequately filled for designers. Right now, save Yaba's system, the best way I know to analzye new critters is to use them on a long term basis, which isn't all that efficient. Hope I gave you both a new perspective. Yuri Thank you. I always cherish multiple viewpoints, and I understand both mine and Keenath's sides on this but personally still I'd prefer RPG systems on a +/- scale with + being the accumulation of abilities and - the defect. Haven't seen many 'blind races' other than grimlock, destrachan, and the poor, poor yrthak (possible one of the most underused monsters in MM1 ever...) at least counting among the more beastial types. I wasn't considering oozes, fungi, or plants, as by default they have no eyes and probably don't care either way. Damn, Keenath! That's weird.. look at the time of post.. you wrote that the same time as I did mine. <_< No no of course, leave Yaba's system be, I was discussing hypothetically. And I agree, sight was one of the most advantageous adaptations for life on earth ever, hence the popularity. If it weren't, well, most environments would have to be... in a cave, or on the ocean floor, where "blindsight" rules.
Angel Black 04-23-07, 10:52 AM	Are there 'updated' FP ratings for the core classes, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs? If so, could you please provide a link to the post? Goblins and kobolds are in: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=4 More about goblinoids: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=746682
Sylvaroth 04-23-07, 02:11 PM	Goblins and kobolds are in: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=667683&page=4 Great, exactly what I was looking for. Is this the latest Yaba did? More about goblinoids: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=746682 Added Goblin Mage, Bloodthirsty Hobgoblin, and Bugbear Prankster ;)
Insanit 05-08-07, 01:08 PM	As a DM It seems the Hobgoblin's +2 to two stats is underestimated
Melayl 05-12-07, 10:58 PM	Ok, so if I have a Monstrous Humanoid race with 1 racial HD and an FP score of 45, is that an LA+1 or LA 0?
aotrscommander 05-25-07, 07:20 AM	Yaba, has their been any more thoughts on Powerful Build for a small creature? Or is it still best guess at 11FP, since way back in the thread? I've got a Small race with Powerful Build [11FP according to your last estimate I saw], +2 to Jump, Listen, Move silently, Spot and Tumble [5FP] and LLV [1FP], which as I understand it is [17FP] +0 LA. That sound about balanced as a package overall, eyeballing as well as FPing?
YabaTheWhat 05-25-07, 08:56 AM	Ok, so if I have a Monstrous Humanoid race with 1 racial HD and an FP score of 45, is that an LA+1 or LA 0? You can't have a race with one racial hit die. It gets dropped, along with all its benefits, so it doesn't count. If they're still over 18 FP without the hit die benefits, then they're LA+1. Yaba, has their been any more thoughts on Powerful Build for a small creature? Or is it still best guess at 11FP, since way back in the thread? I've got a Small race with Powerful Build [11FP according to your last estimate I saw], +2 to Jump, Listen, Move silently, Spot and Tumble [5FP] and LowLightVision [1FP], which as I understand it is [17FP] +0 LA. That sound about balanced as a package overall, eyeballing as well as FPing? Small size (w/ standard 20 ft move), powerful build, low-light vision, a few skill bonuses, and no ability adjustments? Yeah, sounds like a pretty standard LA+0 overpowered, roughly comparable to the Raptoran (18FP). Blinded: The character cannot see. He takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a –4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them.When it comes to blind races, you basically need to evaluate what actions they cannot take, and apply FP reductions accordingly. A totally blind race takes penalties on both melee and ranged attacks (capped at -5 FP each), moves at half speed, suffers a 50% miss chance on all attacks, takes a -2 penalty to AC, plus any skill penalties that apply. They also don't gain the AC benefit from dexterity, if they get a dexterity bonus (which leaves them vulnerable to a number of special attacks, including sneak attacks). They do get a minor immunity (gaze attacks). In all, permanent full blindness could be worth -25FP for a typical race. (Some penalties can be overcome by the blindfighting feat, but unless they get it as a racial bonus feat, do not consider it in the FP evaluation.) Any ability that grants an alternative primary sense (blindsight, scent, tremorsense, etc.) removes the negative FP value of any part of the blindness penalties which that ability negates, in addition to the usual cost of the ability itself. Blindness on a creature with blindsight is only worth about -10FP (or less, depending on the blindsight range), because the bulk of the penalties are negated.
aotrscommander 05-25-07, 10:21 AM	Small size (w/ standard 20 ft move), powerful build, low-light vision, a few skill bonuses, and no ability adjustments? Yeah, sounds like a pretty standard LA+0 overpowered, roughly comparable to the Raptoran (18FP). Cool. Thanks! (Would you believe this actually my homebrew version of Kobolds? Bio-engineering by the Dark Lord for the win!)
ArcanaMaster 05-27-07, 03:32 PM	Can someone please calculate FP for the following race. Medium Construct Hit dice: by class +20 speed: 30 +2 natural armor 1 slam(1d4+1-1/2 strength bonus) DR 1/adamantine Abilities:Str +4, Con __, Dex -2, Cha -10
Theskippingman 05-31-07, 04:10 PM	Hey, Yaba! Awesome work on racial balance. You're just about the foremost person I can think of in this category. If time permits, would you balance the following races for me? They're from my in-development Avernum d20 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=839662) project. Note that, largely to retain as much flavor from the games as possible, powerful races have experience bonuses rather than Level Adjustments, roughly corresponding to a 10% exp penalty per LA +1. Humans: The familiar humans are possibly the most numerous and influential race in the world. Avernites, especially into the third and fourth generations, have notable physical distinctions from surface-dwelling humans; their appearances are lean, wiry, pale, and agile. Alignment is any (often neutral). - Medium: As Medium creatures, humans have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. - Human base land speed is 30 feet. - 1 extra feat at 1st level. - 4 extra skill points at 1st level and 1 extra skill point at each additional level. - Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Any (other than secret languages). See the Speak Language skill. - Favored Class: Any. When determining whether a multiclass human takes an experience point penalty, his or her highest-level class does not count. Goblins: Goblins are an ancient demi-human race of Avernum, whose population rivals even that of humans. Their skin is bumpy and generally a hue of green or yellow. They are very small in stature, usually never reaching a meter. Lacking civilization and sophisticated technology, goblins compensate with devious persistence and sheer numbers. Goblins are frequently bullied and made the lackeys of more powerful creatures or prodigal members of their own race. Alignment is usually neutral evil. - +2 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, -2 Reputability. Goblins are lithe and sprightly, but are none too bright nor refined in mannerism. - Small: As a Small creature, a goblin gains a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks, but he uses smaller weapons than humans use, and his lifting and carrying limits are three-quarters of those of a Medium character. - Goblin base land speed is 20 feet. - Darkvision: Goblins can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and goblins can function just fine with no light at all. - +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks. Goblin body movements are very quiet. - +2 racial bonus on Disable Device checks. Goblins are easily able to dismantle complex contraptions for their own (often foul) objectives. - Automatic Languages: Common and Goblin. Bonus Languages: Dragon, Nephil, and Slithzerikaiis (Slith-speech). - Favored Class: Rogue. A multiclass goblin's rogue class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. Nephilim: The nephilim are a race of feline people. They are fierce warriors and have a strong tribal structure. They were once common on the surface world, until the Empire began a campaign of extermination and deportation against them. They were offered the option of deportation to Avernum. Some accepted. Most refused, and were killed. The nephilim are known for their superb archery, acrobatics, and beauty. Alignment is usually chaotic (any). - +2 Dexterity, +2 Luck. Nephilim are sly, elusive creatures. - Medium: As Medium creatures, nephilim have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. - Nephil base land speed is 40 feet. A nephil is exceptionally fast. - Low-Light Vision: A nephil can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. - Weapon Proficiency: Nephilim receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for all martial ranged and thrown weapons. Missile weaponry is choice in nephil warfare, so nephilim are familiar with these weapons. - +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks. A nephil who merely passes within 5 feet of a secret or concealed door is entitled to a Search check to notice it as if she were actively looking for it. - +1 racial bonus on all attack rolls made with ranged or thrown weapons. - Automatic Languages: Common and Nephil. Bonus Languages: Faerie, Goblin, and Slithzerikaiis (Slith-speech). - Favored Class: Archer. A multiclass nephil's archer class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. - 10% experience penalty. Slithzerikai: The slithzerikai (or sliths, for short) are a race of lizard people who primarily live underground. They are strong warriors and spellcasters. About half of the sliths in Avernum are barbaric creatures who wage constant war against the humans. The rest are friendly and intelligent and want nothing more than to live in peace. The sliths love pole weapons, especially the two- or three-tined spears favored as weapons by their people. Alignment is usually lawful (any). - +2 Strength, +2 Hardiness. A slith is a hardy, physically powerful being. - Medium: As Medium creatures, sliths have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. - Slith base land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Slithzerikai can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and sliths can function just fine with no light at all. - Weapon Proficiency: Slithzerikai receive the Martial Weapon Proficiency feats for the trident, glaive, guirsame, halberd, ranseur, and scythe. Pole weaponry of all types is the traditional staple weaponry of the slith race. - +1 racial bonus on all attack rolls made with pole weaponry, which consists of the weapons listed above in the Weapon Proficiency racial trait, as well as the javelin, quarterstaff, and spear (long, short, and medium). - +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison: Sliths are hardy and resistant to poison. - +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities: Slithzerikai have an innate resistance to magic spells. - +4 natural armor bonus: Slith skin consists of thick, resilient scales. - Automatic Languages: Common and Slithzerikaiis (Slith-speech). Bonus Languages: Dragon, Goblin, and Nephil. - Favored Class: Soldier. A multiclass slith's soldier class does not count when determining whether he takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. - 20% experience penalty. Vahnatai: The vahnatai are an ancient, advanced, and bizarre humanoid race living in the deepest parts of Avernum's caves. They have small limbs, smooth colorful skin, and large eyes and heads. These creatures are highly intelligent and resourceful, and very skilled in the use of crystals to perform powerful feats of magic. The vahnatai have the ability to take the spirits of their ancestors and bring them back in crystalline form. These new beings, the Crystal Souls, were their spiritual guides and the most revered beings among their people. Their weaponry (featuring intricately waved swords and deadly throwing disks) and battle tactics is equally strange and magnificent. Through their ancient wisdom and great power, they assisted various Avernite groups during the Empire War. Alignment is usually neutral good. - +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Cunning, +2 Reputability. Vahnatai are remarkable beings in nearly every aspect. - Medium: As Medium creatures, vahnatai have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. - Vahnatai base land speed is 30 feet. - Darkvision: Vahnatai can see in the dark up to 60 feet. Darkvision is black and white only, but it is otherwise like normal sight, and vahnatai can function just fine with no light at all. - Low-Light Vision: A vahnatai can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions. - Weapon Familiarity: Vahnatai may treat vahnatai waveblades and razordisks as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons. - Telepathy 100 feet: A vahnatai has the ability to telepathically communicate with any creature of Intelligence 3 or higher out to a distance of 100 feet. This is a supernatural ability. - Spell resistance equal to 15 + class levels. - +1 natural armor bonus: Vahnatai skin is tougher than the norm. - Automatic Languages: Common and Novah (Vahnatai-speech). Bonus Languages: Any. See the Speak Language skill. - Spell-Like Abilities: At will—charm monster, detect thoughts. 1/day—dancing lights, light, prestidigitation. Caster level 1st; save DC 10 + vahnatai’s Cha modifier + spell level. - Favored Class: Sorcerer. A multiclass vahnatai’s sorcerer class does not count when determining whether she takes an experience point penalty for multiclassing. - 30% experience penalty. Thank you! Theskippingman
Theskippingman 05-31-07, 10:26 PM	:bump: Pretty please? :)
Keenath 06-01-07, 05:42 PM	Been said several times. Go do it yourself. Come back with what you think; somebody may be willing to look at your try and tell you if it worked or not. Don't beg for other people to do your work for you.
ArcanaMaster 06-01-07, 08:01 PM	Two questions: 1. What would Hardness 5 be worth? 2. What equipment slots would an Awakened Tree not have?
andinel 06-02-07, 02:27 AM	Hardness is the same as DR/adamantine.
AMGriffin 06-02-07, 07:28 PM	I haven't looked at this thread lately... But have any changes been made to the Ability score modifiers? Or are those still flawed and screwy?
Theskippingman 06-03-07, 03:13 PM	Been said several times. Go do it yourself. Come back with what you think; somebody may be willing to look at your try and tell you if it worked or not. Don't beg for other people to do your work for you. Where do I find the system itself? That would be useful information.
Melayl 06-03-07, 07:42 PM	Go to Yaba's first post in this thread (post#). Second button in his sig, you want the charts, the tutorial is also helpful.
Rerecros 06-07-07, 10:56 PM	Where can I find the most up to date compilation of the feature point system?
Keenath 06-08-07, 09:25 AM	Where can I find the most up to date compilation of the feature point system? See previous post.
Keenath 06-08-07, 09:34 AM	I haven't looked at this thread lately... But have any changes been made to the Ability score modifiers? Or are those still flawed and screwy? No changes have been made as far as I know, though you have to calculate STR and DEX properly.* What do you mean by flawed and screwy? Is this the stupid "mental scores worth more/less" argument again? * The correct method for calculating STR and DEX costs: Add up your melee/ranged attack modifier for a non-leveled member of the race and look up that value on the Ability Score table. Then add up the attack modifier without STR/DEX, look that value up, and subtract it from the previous score. The result is the value of the STR or DEX modifier, and the you also look up the BAB and other bonuses on their appropriate tables. This is because a STR +4 is more valuable (due to synergy) on a creature that has BAB +2 and an attack bonus when using polearms than is it on, say, an Orc, and more valuable than a +4 to Constitution on the same creature.
danzibr 06-09-07, 10:28 AM	Well, I checked the second tab in his sig and didn't actually find a pdf or chart or anything with the different values. I mean, I'll evaluate my own race once I get this information (I'd feel too lazy to just post the info here and beg people to do it for me), but yeah... need the info. So basically, without any flaming, will someone direct me to what everything is worth? Dan
andinel 06-09-07, 03:26 PM	There's a link in the first sentence of the second paragraph in this post (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=9997225&postcount=223).
Lady Maedhros 06-09-07, 10:17 PM	Any thoughts on a value for this ability? Transmutative Affinity (ex): Though [Insert race here] cannot natively change their own shape, they have tremendous control over alterations made to that shape by outside forces. They gain a +4 racial bonus to all saving throws vs. transmutation spells and effects, and any beneficial transmutation spell cast on a [race] has its normal duration doubled at no extra cost to the caster. (In the case of a spell affected by the Extend Spell feat, remember that two doublings is a tripling and so forth). [For the curious, they're a race of planetouched descended from shapeshifting celestials; they have the (shapechanger) subtype but they don't actually have any other forms without the intervention of feats or prestige classes.]
OpakeDragon 06-29-07, 01:01 PM	On spell resistance, what about when the value of the scaling (i take this to mean a value + CL) spell resistance is less than 11? Such as the Githzerai's 5 + CL feature? thanks for your help. ***EDIT*** from what I understand (which may be very little): Forerunner (Gith) -Humanoid (Extraplanar) -+6 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. [22 FP] -Medium size. [0 FP] -A Gith's base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] -Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] -Special Qualities: spell resistance equal to class levels + 5. [12 FP] -Automatic Languages: Common, Gith. Bonus Languages: Any -Favored Class: Monk. [0 FP] -Alignment: Any neutral. [0 FP] [TOTAL: 37 FP] also: Inertial Armor (Sp): Githzerai can use psychic force to block an enemy's blows. This ability gives them a +4 armor bonus to AC as long as they remain conscious. This is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. from my reckoning this ability is worth [6 FP]. If added to the Forerunner like had originally wanted to it would increase to [TOTAL: 43 FP] while it is in the LA +1/Maximum FP range it is still below the LA +2/Minimum FP range. I would appreciate a confirmation of my calculations please?
YabaTheWhat 06-29-07, 02:46 PM	Forerunner (Gith) -Humanoid (Extraplanar) -+6 Dexterity, -2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. [22 FP] -Medium size. [0 FP] -A Gith's base land speed is 30 feet. [0 FP] -Darkvision out to 60 feet. [3 FP] -Special Qualities: spell resistance equal to class levels + 5. [14 FP] -Automatic Languages: Common, Gith. Bonus Languages: Any -Favored Class: Monk. [0 FP] -Alignment: Any neutral. [0 FP] [TOTAL: 37 FP] also: Originally Posted by MM3.5 Inertial Armor (Sp): Githzerai can use psychic force to block an enemy's blows. This ability gives them a +4 armor bonus to AC as long as they remain conscious. This is the equivalent of a 1st-level spell. [4*3 = 12 FP] When calculating SR, you didn't account for the scaling at 2nd level, before the first delayed feature division comes into play. Still, that's only a 2FP difference. The bigger mistake was on the inertial armor feature. That is the equivalent to Mage Armor (a self-only spell lasting 1 hour per level) at will. For spells with that duration, the use-at-will multiplier is x3, and first level spells are worth 4FP for one use. The value of Mage Armor doesn't drop for being Self Only, because it is only useful to a small number of classes anyway. (Only unarmored classes benefit from the spell.) Someone with Mage Armor as a spell-like ability would generally not spend his time casting it on the rest of the party.
OpakeDragon 06-29-07, 06:05 PM	When calculating SR, you didn't account for the scaling at 2nd level, before the first delayed feature division comes into play. Im not really sure that I understand what you mean by this because —Spell resistance equal to 11 + class levels. [28 FP - 2 FP, see below] this is the same SR as mentioned in the Githzerai block in the PDF the FP for the 11 SR is 25 + 3 INC, except that the Githzerai is 5 SR which is 10 + 2 INC in the PDF. also what do you mean by scaling? I understand now why you say its a use-at-will spell-like ability but I don't know where this x3 multiplier comes from?
Lord Otaku 07-03-07, 09:49 PM	Huh. Just curious. Why can't I print the PDF for the Feater Point charts? (http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf)
Rerecros 07-03-07, 09:51 PM	http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf
Lord Otaku 07-04-07, 06:51 AM	http://yabathewhat.tripod.com/FP.pdf I've tried printing it, but I noticed that the Print button on Acrobat is not available on this file, and when I scroll and click on Print under File, it normally does nothing, although on some computers it will print a mostly blank page. Is it due to the set up for the file, or is there something wrong with the numerous computers I've been using? :confused:
OpakeDragon 07-04-07, 10:36 AM	anonymous user of this pdf does not have the permissions to print.
Lord Otaku 07-04-07, 02:58 PM	Ahhhhh... I was afraid of that. I know this is a long shot, but is there a way to gain permission? I would love to be able to use a hard copy to carry with me.
OpakeDragon 07-04-07, 03:17 PM	um screemshot every 100% view of the PDF and paste them together to make individual images and then print each image? without the password (from the author) you can not print directly from it... unless you want to find a password cracker that gets rid of it, but I think thats illegal for documents that you dont have the rights to.
Lord Otaku 07-04-07, 03:31 PM	um screemshot every 100% view of the PDF and paste them together to make individual images and then print each image? without the password (from the author) you can not print directly from it... unless you want to find a password cracker that gets rid of it, but I think thats illegal for documents that you dont have the rights to. And bad manners. ;) I'm hopping to become a productive member of the Forums. If YadaTheWhat doesn't want it printed, I will respect that. Thank you for the options, though. Perhaps I'll PM him, though he's probably too busy for something so trivial. (Hope he doesn't mind.)
Ninetails Demon 07-20-07, 01:29 AM	With the size of this thread, and not keeping a close eye on it ;) , I was wondering if there is any word about filling out the Feature Points.pdf to be a more complete document?
Skritz_the_Lizardmen 07-24-07, 02:45 PM	Klatu! Verata! Niktu! I animate this thread!!
Lawlicron 07-24-07, 03:27 PM	We could always ask for a sticky. Then we wouldn't lose it under so much crap.
Thurbane 08-05-07, 07:16 AM	So did anyone dissect the half-ogre using feature points yet?
Yuri_Zhivago 08-06-07, 11:27 AM	Savage Spieces half-ogre, or Dragonlance Campaign Setting? Just to be clear. Yuri
Thurbane 08-07-07, 04:02 AM	Races of Destiny 1/2 ogre please.
Khadmus 08-22-07, 05:00 PM	:bump: A few FP-made races of mine. Could you see if they look about right? FP values intentionally left out. Greenblood. +2 Con Medium Humanoid (reptilian) 30' movement. Standard Vision Natural Attack: Bite (1d8+poison), Tail Slap (1d6+poison) Poison: Greenblood Oil. (see DMG) +2 natural armor bonus Favored Class: LA +1 Dragonspawn Medium Humanoid (dragonblood, reptilian) 30' movement, Fly 5' (clumsy) Darkvision 120', Blindsense 15' Natural Attack: Bite (1d8), 2 Claws (1d6), 2 Wings (1d4) Natural Armor bonus +2 Favored Class: Dragon Shaman LA +2
FriendlyBiscuit 08-29-07, 03:18 AM	Does anyone have FP numbers for Naturally Psionic, racial power points, etc?
FriendlyBiscuit 08-29-07, 06:02 AM	Oh, and do you think feats that require maintenance or expenditure of psionic focus should cost extra?
Tetriscope 08-29-07, 06:20 AM	I started out with 4x(spell level)+2 per SLA and no caster level cost in the beginning, and got numerous complaints, which was why I reevaluated them. I tried making SLAs 2x(spell level)+1 per SLA plus 2x(caster level) for the highest-cost SLA. It didn't balance properly, and I went back to 3x(spell level)+1 per SLA and 1x(caster level) for the highest SLA. Recently I made additional tweaks to the cost of high-level SLAs. There's also a table for calculating use-at-will cost, which I've referenced a few times but have not posted, and some people just assumed the once-per-day cost was the use-at-will cost (with disastrous results). I have the PDF, and the tables for at-will SLAs are indeed there. However, I still need more information. Do I multiply the “Cost for use at will” value by the value in the “Base SLA cost” table, or do I add them together? If I make something usable a fewer number of times per day, what effect does that have on the cost? Caster Level Adjust: why does a CL adjust of 0 cost 1, or a –1 CL adjust also cost 1? There might be a better way to word/phrase the 4 columns of that table, as I’m almost certain that I’m misreading them and I can’t determine an intuitive way to reanalyze them. I’m creating a race, aiming it at being a LA +2 and CR +1 race, in line with the gith races and the drow, and good at spellcasting and manifesting. It has +2 to all three mental stats, which appears to cost 12 points. If I bumped that up to +4 to all three mental stats, it would cost 30 points, if I’m reading correctly. Now, I want it to be good at spellcasting and manifesting, so I’m planning to increase its caster/manifester level by 2. I think this would cost 5 FPs, but since I’m applying to any and all casting or manifesting classes, I should increase it… we’ll say to 7.5. If I’m reading the table wrong, it might cost as much as 14 FPs normally, in which case I would increase it to 20 or 21 for the flexible, applies-to-everything nature of the effect. It also has some racial SLAs to protect it from the deadly predators where it lives. Emphasizing the fact that the race is highly magical/supernatural all-around, I’m looking to give it an Arcane, a Divine, and a psionic spell-like/psi-like ability. I’m thinking Invisibility, Calm Emotions, and Detect Hostile Intent, respectively. At will would be nice and all, but that strikes me as overpowered, and I’m sure that if I understood FP correctly that they would agree with me. I’d be happy with 3/day, but how do I calculate that? ((No, I’m not planning to adhere strictly to FP for balancing this race, necessarily, but it’s a nice place to start and I really appreciate how much effort has gone into it. FPs have worked out very well for another, not-so-spellcastery race I did recently.))
YabaTheWhat 08-29-07, 10:46 AM	Just a couple quick notes, for people who are looking now but don't have time to go back and read. ¤ I have not had time to work on Feature Points for over a year now. Life got busy, and shortly before it was supposed to go back to the way it had been (because the projects that made it busy were coming to a close), it instead got busier. This includes both good and bad changes, but every one of them consumed more of what had previously been my free time. ¤ With fourth edition coming out next year, this project probably won't go any further. I do plan to apply the same general concepts to the 4th edition ruleset when time allows, if only to see whether they've learned anything. Whether or not I actually make the results public will depend mainly on whether I find sufficient time to do so. Of course, if they haven't learned anything, and the system turns out to be completely unbalanceable, then I'll just say as much and leave it at that. ¤ The document was originally made unprintable to prevent people from removing the cover & copyright notice and claiming my work as their own. There are ways around it, but it takes some effort. At the time, I was already working on a written document with explanations for how to use each section of the charts, and only published the charts independently because the plethora of requests was choking my PM box. I don't mind people sharing and freely using the document (which is legal under the fair use laws anyway), but if someone decides to publish my work (or a derivative thereof) as their own, I'd still like the ability to prove it. ¤ Increments indicate the difference between one state and the state immediately before it. They mainly serve to demonstrate a progression, and are only directly used for calculations in a few cases. For charts which only have increments listed, take the sum of all increments between zero (exclusive) and the bonus you want to apply (inclusive). For penalties, take the sum of all increments between zero (inclusive) and the penalty you want to apply (exclusive). Note that the increments for most penalties drop to zero below a certain point, indicating that there is no drawback to applying greater penalties. ¤ In the spells & spell-like abilities section, the use-at-will cost chart indicates multipliers. I originally had the word "multipliers" in the chart name. Basically the chart means, "If you can use it at will, it's worth the same as this many uses of the ability per day." In retrospect, a system of decreasing increments (like the ones used for damage reduction) would have worked better. It also would have taken a lot more space. ¤ D&D third edition (and to my knowledge, all previous editions as well) suffers from a fatal flaw in class balance; martial classes start out strong and grow almost linearly, while caster classes start out weak and grow almost exponentially. To make the feature points system fully accurate to all classes, each feature would have needed two values; martial and magical. Level-based totals for these values would then appear as separate charts, and the greater of the two results would apply for each creature. When I was developing the FP system, I chose to compromise between the two progressions instead of separating them; attack bonuses received incremental values, resulting (most prominently) in the stacking adjustments for strength and dexterity.
OpakeDragon 12-06-07, 04:56 PM	Im not sure if this thread is intentionally dead but I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to this question... if two ability scores are highest (say +4 to int and +4 to cha) do you apply the highest FP to each highest score or just once? or at all? I am hoping its just once.
OpakeDragon 12-06-07, 05:10 PM	I cant find this thread in the races list for new posts....
sigma999 12-09-07, 11:26 PM	Yaba dumped it. Keenath stopped proselytizing. I gave up on the whole thing a long time ago.
Tyonisius 12-20-07, 04:05 PM	Im not sure if this thread is intentionally dead but I was wondering if anyone knew the answer to this question... if two ability scores are highest (say +4 to int and +4 to cha) do you apply the highest FP to each highest score or just once? or at all? I am hoping its just once. Based upon the examples given by Yaba on the first page of this thread I believe you only apply the highest FP to just one of the abilities scores. Using your example of +4 to int and +4 to cha, I believe it would be 12 FP for the +4 to Int and then 8 FP for the +4 to cha or vice versa.
larry_the_titan 12-21-07, 09:28 PM	I'm trying to figure out the Feature Points for the Killoren (from Races of the Wild) and I thought I'd come here for some input on their aspect of nature manifestations. One gives a +2 bonus to initiative (among other, more easily statted items), which I think is probably worth about 2 points, since it's half a basic feat (Improved Init. worth 3 points) but stacks with that feat. I may be undervaluing this though, as acting sooner more often in combat is nice. Another gives Cha mod smites per day (min. 1, no more than 1 per hour) that add +Cha to attack +HD to damage and can only be used on specific creature types (although this covers a wide variety of creatures). I don't really have a clue what this is worth in Feature Points. The other aspect gives +HD to Knowledge(Nature) checks. I'm not entirely sure how to assign points to this either, as the formula in the pdf for delayed features applies to features that are completely withheld until a certain level is reached. I don't think this would be worth more than 2 FP though. Also, Killoren have a -2 penalty on attacks when wielding cold iron weapons. How much should this penalty deduct from their FP total? Obviously not the -3 that a blanket -2 penalty to melee attacks gets. Maybe -1? -0.5? Did some one just over look this post or was there reply earlier that I didn't see? I to really wish to find out the FP for Killoren. If you need more information about the race I will tell you what I can with out breaking CoC.
XaiFu 02-02-08, 02:20 PM	I've worked up a race and wondering if I could get help on FP calculations? Eyelox: They stand between 6 and 7 feet tall and weigh between 150 and 250 pounds with long limbs and a giant eyeball for a head. Skin colors are on the darker side and eye colors vary greatly. An exoskeleton covers the body, including most of the eye. -+2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. Eyelox have a keen instinct, but have an alien mindset.4-5=-1 FP Aberration: Eyelox are not subject to spells or effects that affect humanoids only, such as charm person or dominate person.3 FP -Medium size.0 FP -Eyelox base land speed is 20 feet.-4 FP -It also has a climb speed of 20 feet (using Spider Climb at will, self-only).(7-1)x3=18 FP -Darkvision out to 120 feet and superior low-light vision.4+3=7 FP -+2 Natural Armor due to exoskeleton.12 FP -+10 racial bonus on Spot checks.5 FP --4 penalty on Listen checks.-2 FP -Automatic Languages: Eyelox. Bonus Languages: Any.0 FP -Favored Class: Scout.0 FP 38 FP = LA +1 balanced Did I do this right?
Morphius 04-02-08, 01:24 AM	Could anyone provide an FP cost for a minotaur's abilities, particularly the "never lost", "never flat-footed", and immune to maze spells?