Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Shoobs 01-02-08, 12:53 AM	I recently wanted to play a ( definate ) fairy in a game my dm was hosting and through serious and overextensive searching on the web... we originally went with pixie. But I wasn't happy with it and eventually I got them to decide to try to create a new template specifically for Fairies. The DM thinks its underpowered for LA0 and the creator of the race thinks it is. I am not the creator. Fairy Race Racial Traits +2 dex, -2 str, -2con Base land speed 15 ft Size: Diminutive Low light vision 30ft Nocturnal. Fairy's can fly but no higher than 20 ft from solid ground. Vertigo: if a fairy fly to far from gound they suffer vertigo and must make Will saves to keep flying DC 15, each round or min. while in vertigo the DC increase by one/foot from gound above 20. Fairy's Light Ability: Fairy's can create an orb of light that is surpressable at will, in order to do this the fairy must concentrate and make a sucessful concentreation check, normal penalties apply. While the light is active the fairy suffer a dodge ac[armor, size and magical] drop by half. The light doesn't illuminate but helps the fairy to see. ( The concept is that the glow somehow adds to their low light vision, but prevents other beings from seeing objects around them. ) +2 saves to all posions: because fairys live in the wild they have developed a natural immunity to most posions +2 Saves to entanglement: due to size -2 Bluff, intimidate, and Concentration: cause of thier playful nature +2 Hide, Move Silently, Survival: cause of living in the wilds +4 Handle Animal and Escape Artist: Living amonst creatures and size -4 Disguise and Use Rope: Size and nature -2 saves against mind effecting: palyful nature Immunity to Paralytic effects whether magic or natural Languages: Sylvan, Druidic; Bonus Languages:Elvan,Common,Celestial Favored Class: Druid EDIT: I've noticed alot of things that were taken out that would have underbalanced the race even more, so if you want to know them, ask.
sigma999 01-02-08, 01:25 AM	Are you serious? :(
Shoobs 01-02-08, 02:28 AM	Am I serious about WHAT? You have to be more specific.
RobbyPants 01-02-08, 10:54 AM	It's fairly powerful for a LA +0 template. Typically, you're hard pressed to come up with anything with flight with no (or a small) level adjustment. Now, you did come up with an interesting limitation on the flight. Although, it looks like it doesn't kick in until a minute after they go over 20 feet off the ground. So, this doens't prevent them from flying over pits and the like. Two of the biggest reasons that flight is so powerful for low level PCs are: it gives you strong offensive and defensive abilities in combat, and it allows you to bypass many traps, hazards, and puzzels that other low level PCs could not. More often than not, races and classes don't allow flight until about 5th level. There are a few exceptions. If you wanted to try and get the whole vertigo thing to work, have it kick in once they're above five or ten feet off the ground, and have it work on a round by round basis. I guess this wouldn't stop them from going over narrow pits, but it keeps them from buzzing above the battle field peppering the opponents with arrows.
Shoobs 01-02-08, 05:23 PM	Minute out of combat, round in combat. And I wanted it to be viewed as they can't go above 20 feet, period. They're fine up to that point but once above 20 feet there's no way to stop the vertigo. Some other things that were left out was to hinder the fairy's spellcasting from hiding. If a creature was unaware it'd gain 1.5x its base saving through ( 2 / 0 / 0 for a first level fighter would be 3 / 0 / 0 ) against the fairy's spells, otherwise nothing. Once the fairy reached any caster level 5 this ability would be snuffed. Secondly, my original intent on the light ( to prevent a fairy from immediately being able to hide with minimum +8 to hide just based on side ) was that it couldn't be suppressed without a delay of two rounds after the original intent for it to turn off and that the light could not be off for more than five rounds per level before their concencentration would slip and the light would return. Ofcourse, those were in there because I believed it fair to give fairies certain abilities at certain class levels that would be similar to a monk's natural abilities...but nothing devastatingly powerful ( one was Alter-self up to Large 2/day at level 5 and the spell'd be dismissable at will. )
Shoobs 01-02-08, 11:19 PM	*shoves some negative energy into a positive thread.*
Jaxgaret 01-02-08, 11:23 PM	*shoves some negative energy into a positive thread.* Ka-boom! Isn't that like matter and antimatter colliding? :)
Shoobs 01-02-08, 11:29 PM	Eh... maybe. I'm more interested in getting people to discuss ideas for either underpowering or adding more stuff to the template made. I only have one constructive post to this and its making me quite infuriated that people aren't more willing to help but have looked at other posts.
Jaxgaret 01-03-08, 12:24 AM	There's no way it's going to be balanced unless you add lots of drawbacks. A Diminutive LA +0 race with natural Flight = perfect for spellcasters. You might start by dropping it to -6 or -8 Str. That makes a lot more sense than -2; that's ridiculously strong for a creature that, well, diminutive.
Shoobs 01-03-08, 12:35 AM	We're going with average strength for a dimunitive creature, not medium. I don't see why you're saying the flight is so unbalanced 'specially with it being so restrictive. The fairy, as I intended it, couldn't get past a 20 foot pit through flight without taking severe fall damage ( As in it picks up speed and tries to propel itself ot the other side. ) The creator of hte race is the one who added the check. I wanted it to not even be a check. It gains vertigo period.
Fireclave 01-03-08, 06:31 AM	I don't see why you're saying the flight is so unbalanced 'specially with it being so restrictive. I don't see why you're saying the flight is so unbalanced 'specially with it being so restrictive. The fairy, as I intended it, couldn't get past a 20 foot pit through flight without taking severe fall damage ( As in it picks up speed and tries to propel itself ot the other side. ) it gives you strong offensive and defensive abilities in combat, and it allows you to bypass many traps, hazards, and puzzels that other low level PCs could not. That's pretty much why. Flight is pretty much innately powerful enough at lower levels to almost always warrant some kind of adjustment, be it either either an LA or racial HD (or both). Being able to stay completely out of melee, ignore difficult terrain, and avoid most traps are very powerful abilities. Even pit traps aren't much of a problem as long as they're either less than 20ft deep or or if there is any other way around them, since they can ignore any difficult terrain that's not a shear 20ft high wall. And these advantages of flight are hard to get rid of without nerfing flight to the point that it's no longer flight. We're going with average strength for a dimunitive creature, not medium. While it's not a hard rule, the general trend is smaller player races generally have a lower strength score. Most small races, for example, have a -2 to str. Smaller creatures have an even larger strength reduction. For example, the only diminutive creatures in the SRD, the bat and the toad, have only 1 str. Going up one size, Grigs are tiny-sized fey and have a base str of 5. Pixies and Nixies are both small size fey have have strengths of 7. Also, races smaller than small are hard to balance as a LA+0 race because being that small bestows a number of great advantages while making the inherit weakness of being small redundant (after a certain point, for example, you just don't care about your low str and grapple checks). You might not realize just how powerful your fey are. Fairy Race Racial Traits +2 dex, -2 str, -2con Your fey have an effective +5 bonus to AC at first level (+1 dex, +4 size), and that's before armor and spells kick in. A Fairy wiz/sor can be rockin' it with 22AC with as little as a 16 base dex and mage armor, assuming that they'll need it since they'll be out of reach of melee combat and are therefore threatened only by intelligent, properly equipped foes. Not to mention the effective +3 bonus to melee and total +5 bonus to ranged attack rolls, again mostly due to their size. While melee is probably not any option due to lack of reach (though there are ways around that), these fairies are deadly accurate archers and ray caster. And all their archers need they need is a bonus source of damage to overcome their low base weapon damage (Sneak Attack, various poisons, Favored Enemy, Ranged Smite, Wand of Scorching Ray, (Greater) Psionic Shot, and various buff spells and powers). Also, there's no type. Are your faeries actually fey, humanoids, or some kind of fey-blooded subtype? Fairy's can fly but no higher than 20 ft from solid ground. Vertigo: if a fairy fly to far from gound they suffer vertigo and must make Will saves to keep flying DC 15, each round or min. while in vertigo the DC increase by one/foot from gound above 20. Flight's already been covered. This is an interesting drawback though, and I'v e been considering something similar for my own fairy-based race. But I digress. Fairy's Light Ability: Fairy's can create an orb of light that is surpressable at will, in order to do this the fairy must concentrate and make a sucessful concentreation check, normal penalties apply. While the light is active the fairy suffer a dodge ac[armor, size and magical] drop by half. The light doesn't illuminate but helps the fairy to see. ( The concept is that the glow somehow adds to their low light vision, but prevents other beings from seeing objects around them. ) Not a balance issue exactly, but this ability is more confusing than it needs to be. What exactly does it mean to have a "dodge ac drop by half"? It would be much simpler to invoke a static penalty to AC while using this ability. Also, what's the action required to use this ability (standard? swift? move?), does using it provoke an AoO, and how/to what extent does it increase their Low Light Vision. +2 Saves to entanglement: due to size Meh. -2 Bluff, intimidate, and Concentration: cause of thier playful nature Thematic, but not really limiting. +2 saves to all posions: because fairys live in the wild they have developed a natural immunity to most posions While I don't have a problem with your fairies having a potent +2 bonus vs saves, what I do have a problem with is the reasoning. Lots of things live in the wild and don't have immunties to poison. But now I'm just being difficult :P +2 Hide, Move Silently, Survival: cause of living in the wilds These Fairies would make super rogues. If they ever lack something to hide behind, which won't happen too often being no more than 1ft tall, they get a total +15 bonus to hide before rolling stats (+2 racial, +1 dex, +12 size). +4 Handle Animal and Escape Artist: Living amonst creatures and size +4 skill racial bonuses are very high and shouldn't be given out lightly if you're trying to make a balance, no-LA race. Here, you've given out two such bonuses. -4 Disguise and Use Rope: Size and nature Not sure what size and nature have to do with disguising one's self and using rope, but the minuses to disguise are redundant since they are too small to pass for most other races they would be adventuring with. If they really needed to disguise themselves (as oppose to just hiding under a party member's hat), they practically need magic of some sort, which would grant a would grant a bonus to disguise that would outstrip this penalty (Alterself and it's dependents all grant a +10 bonus to disguise attempts). Use rope is just a underused skill that tends to become less useful was the mages start to come in their own unless you are in an environment/campaign where it's use becomes a big convenience (ocean, mountain, -2 saves against mind effecting: palyful nature Immunity to Paralytic effects whether magic or natural These two abilities make them very resistant to some of the more dangerous spells. Not game breaking by themselves, but they are significant. Favored Class: Druid Being that small does have some significant disadvantages as well. You're carrying capacity is crap, you're grapple check is nonexistent, and you're the butt of everyone's jokes. At least until you turn into a freakin' bear with laser. All in all, this race as some very significant bonuses and not much in the way of penalties that really balance those bonuses out. Spellcasters will love this race, as will rogues and archers since they basically lose nothing while gaining alot. Edit: I was just about to post when I noticed your third post: Some other things that were left out was to hinder the fairy's spellcasting from hiding. If a creature was unaware it'd gain 1.5x its base saving through ( 2 / 0 / 0 for a first level fighter would be 3 / 0 / 0 ) against the fairy's spells, otherwise nothing. While this ability does negate the fairy's spellcasting capabilities, how do you explain/justify this in-game? Especially since all other spellcasting creatures don't require their targets to be aware of them for their spells to have maximum effect. Ofcourse, those were in there because I believed it fair to give fairies certain abilities at certain class levels that would be similar to a monk's natural abilities...but nothing devastatingly powerful ( one was Alter-self up to Large 2/day at level 5 and the spell'd be dismissable at will. ) Alter Self only allows you to change up to one size category bigger or smaller than your original size. Unless you meant polymorph? Is so, polymorph is a very potent ability, even with the recent errata, and I wouldn't recommend giving it as a free racial ability. Though it could potentially work as a racial feat.
RobbyPants 01-03-08, 09:58 AM	Yeah, I totally missed that they're diminutive. I've never seen a balanced LA +0 race that's smaller than small or larger than medium. You just get too many bonuses, and you can completely mask the penalties with good class selection. I'd recommend either changing it to small, or adding in a level adjustment. A diminutive creature that can fly (even if only 20 feet above ground) is a spellcaster's dream. They would make pretty good rogues and fantastic warlocks as well. Even with a Str score of 1-3, you gain everything and lose almost nothing. If you have someone else to carry things for you, you never need to worry about encumberance. Also, one last thing: what are the exact effects of vertigo? Does the pixie fall to the ground, or are they simply forced to land?
Shoobs 01-03-08, 04:02 PM	They're dimunitive because I wanted to play a small race...y'know, something that could fit in a pocket or sit on the shoulder. Afterall, that IS what a fairy is in size according to pop culture. Is it not? -2 to mind affecting ( to me ) means that the will is WEAKENED not STRENGTHENED to mind affective spells. Fairy's light is a constant for the race...not only by their nature but by societical thought. Its always on and can only be suppressed through their own thoughts and its not instantaneous suppression and thus would take a round or more, yet the fairy could still act through this. I told the guy what I wanted and he refused to listen to me and buffed it up a lot. My finalized thought on Fairy's light was that it was going to be a constant non-illuminating light that more or less activated the fairy's natural low light vision. Without it, they're almost as blind as a bat. However, the light does not illuminate for any other creatures ( Objects around the fairy ). I'm thinking ..like a firefly sortof. The Dodge AC is refering to any size bonuses, any magical bonuses, and any natural bonuses that would indirectly or directly affect AC. So think of it as this: Dex of 16 +3 size I believe is +5 or +6, I can't remember. so we have an AC of 18. But since the two of them together is +8 and since its all dodge. AC would be 14 with the light active. Or say pre - 3.5 with tumble of 20 ranks Just by going by tumble of 20 ranks, you have +4 to dodge AC. With the light active, it'd be +2 only...not that it'd even be needed considering how tumble works and dimunitive OR flight. Mind you, these are just straight examples t hat I pulled out from the top of my mind. Deflection bonuses, natural armor, and so on are not reduced. As for the spellcasting ability; it was for balancing of mechanics rather than lore. Vertigo is the fairy loses all sense of direction, becomes sick, and falls. Their body no longer functions to save themselves and so take fall damage appropriate. Momentum still lasts, so if they were flying fly hard and up, they could effectively get higher than said 20 feet.. but at the same time they're basically just a thrown rock. Also, subject becomes nauseated once on the ground and cannot fly again for several minutes. I had also added to the flight .. in terms of limitations.. that if attached ( sitting on a shoulder of )to a body that falls, the fairy cannot react fast enough to the change and fly themselves, leaving themselves open to falling into pits if they're walking and/or relaxing in a pocket, relaxing on a shoulder, etc. It was ignored by the maker, aparently. Almost all of the skill bonuses were added by the maker of the template and were not directly authorized by me...and I felt they were overpowered. The only one I wanted was immune to paralysis due to the magical nature of a fairy. . . The fairy is obvioulsy a fey type creature. It can't speak common unless it becomes taught in it. They live in isolated communities like you'd expect it from druidic myth and lore. They do have playful attitudes but at the same time they as a community would avoid all contact with the outside world. So if something was conscious, they'd just hide. If they were asleep, they'd play tricks. The Fairy have no use of money in their own community and they have no concept of a need for protection...atleast as a community. They figure they'll never need to actually fight and thus are almost always peaceful. Due to their size, I'd say some severe limitations to range of any ranged weaponry is in order and in any armor heavier than light any attack struck would have to overcome a 5/- physical to deal damage. Unlike other creatures, however, they have a higher chance of striking for unprotected areas. Considering fairies have little strength, thats nigh impossible to overcome. This race is obviously meant to be geared towards spellcasters. Conceptually and mythologically... you'd never hear of a fairy in heavy armor tearing into something six times their size. At the same time however, I also wanted them to be damaged by any kind of dispel magic kind of spell ( such as breach spells ). My DM countered this argument saying an anti-magic field would then just kill them outright and neither of us wanted this.
RobbyPants 01-03-08, 06:09 PM	They're dimunitive because I wanted to play a small race...y'know, something that could fit in a pocket or sit on the shoulder. Afterall, that IS what a fairy is in size according to pop culture. Is it not? Yes it is. However, just because something has certain qualities does not mean that you can cram all those qualities into a balanced LA +0 race. Certain things (the flight, fey type, and diminutive size, for example) are very imbalanced, and I've yet to see a good LA +0 race that has any of those abilities/attribues. You have two choices: Weaken the race somehow, or give it a level adjustment. Fairy's light is a constant for the race...not only by their nature but by societical thought. Its always on and can only be suppressed through their own thoughts and its not instantaneous suppression and thus would take a round or more, yet the fairy could still act through this. I told the guy what I wanted and he refused to listen to me and buffed it up a lot. My finalized thought on Fairy's light was that it was going to be a constant non-illuminating light that more or less activated the fairy's natural low light vision. Without it, they're almost as blind as a bat. However, the light does not illuminate for any other creatures ( Objects around the fairy ). I'm thinking ..like a firefly sortof. The Dodge AC is refering to any size bonuses, any magical bonuses, and any natural bonuses that would indirectly or directly affect AC. I don't understand the AC penalty for the light. What I'd do is allow them to raise or lower their light as a standard action. While active, the light gives off illumination of a candle (5 or 10 feet shadowy illumination, IIRC). When active, they have a penalty to hide (-8 perhaps?). As for the spellcasting ability; it was for balancing of mechanics rather than lore. The problem with the race is that it's size and ability to fly both lend themselves well to spellcasters. Vertigo is the fairy loses all sense of direction, becomes sick, and falls. Their body no longer functions to save themselves and so take fall damage appropriate. Momentum still lasts, so if they were flying fly hard and up, they could effectively get higher than said 20 feet.. but at the same time they're basically just a thrown rock. Also, subject becomes nauseated once on the ground and cannot fly again for several minutes. Well, I do like this limitation to the flight, but I still think the vertigo should kick in the round that they go above 20 feet, and it should happen every round, in or out of combat. I had also added to the flight .. in terms of limitations.. that if attached ( sitting on a shoulder of )to a body that falls, the fairy cannot react fast enough to the change and fly themselves, leaving themselves open to falling into pits if they're walking and/or relaxing in a pocket, relaxing on a shoulder, etc. It was ignored by the maker, aparently. If you're flat footed (or fail your Reflex save), it maks sense that you'd fall into a pit. The fairy is obvioulsy a fey type creature. Again, the fey type is powerful in it's own right. It grants you immunity to spells that only affect humanoids. Due to their size, I'd say some severe limitations to range of any ranged weaponry is in order and in any armor heavier than light any attack struck would have to overcome a 5/- physical to deal damage. Unlike other creatures, however, they have a higher chance of striking for unprotected areas. Considering fairies have little strength, thats nigh impossible to overcome. This race is obviously meant to be geared towards spellcasters. Conceptually and mythologically... you'd never hear of a fairy in heavy armor tearing into something six times their size. Well, the problem is, while geared toward spellcasters, it's too good to be balanced. It's obvious that a diminutive creature doesn't make a good melee tank, similarly to how many large creatures don't make very good arcane casters or rogues. When designing a race, you have to look at the best case scenario, and not the average case. It's not enough to simply say that because they make terrible fighters that it's okay to make them awesome mages. All of those limitations you've thrown in will be completely ignored by an arcane caster, so thus, they're useless. Any balancing factor that never sees game play is not a balancing factor at all. At the same time however, I also wanted them to be damaged by any kind of dispel magic kind of spell ( such as breach spells ). My DM countered this argument saying an anti-magic field would then just kill them outright and neither of us wanted this. I don't think this is necessary.
Shoobs 01-03-08, 08:20 PM	You don't get it. I wanted it to happen no matter WHEN they go past 20 feet. I was trying to convey that point but as I said, the maker of the template ignored my wishes. You'll have to go into detail about the fey's immunities. I don't see why you're confused about the light aspect. I really do not. I thought I explained myself rather well. While fairy's light is active ( which is assumed to be all the time. Having it deactivated is not something a normal fairy would do. They're meant to be nocturnal. ) any Dodge specific AC bonuses are halved. Mage armor. Size bonuses. Dex bonus. Haste. Anything else that I may have missed with dodge. To prevent abusing the ability to turn off the light and because its psychological to have it on all the time, it takes more than one round for it to turn off. The range weapon limitation was to prevent people from peppering arrows from above or using sneak attack as an excuse for flanking ( which is impossible for dimunitive and fine, from what I read. ) Its also to keep from being too far away with ray based attacks. Just because a ray shooting medium sized person can shoot a ray so far doesn't me an a mini version of person can shoot it just as far.
sigma999 01-03-08, 08:20 PM	Talisman gave advice to me on a similar matter of granting racial types and subtypes. Rather than change type, give an ability that says something like "Character is affected by abilities and items as if of the Fey type whenever doing so would be beneficial", but such a thing would only be appropriate to 'halfbreeds' or beings that became Fey from something else. It doesn't grant immunities to 'person' effects, but also doesn't give the weaknesses of having the Fey type, such as "Protection from Fey" if there ever was a spell printed that did such a thing.
Fireclave 01-03-08, 08:41 PM	-2 to mind affecting ( to me ) means that the will is WEAKENED not STRENGTHENED to mind affective spells. Somehow I read that as +2 instead of -2. My apologies. It's still not enough to balance out the race though. Fairy's light is a constant for the race...not only by their nature but by societical thought. Its always on and can only be suppressed through their own thoughts and its not instantaneous suppression and thus would take a round or more, yet the fairy could still act through this. I told the guy what I wanted and he refused to listen to me and buffed it up a lot. Then this should be presented in the actual race description. Supressable at will means, unless there is some other mechanic being referred, the creature can supress the ability whenever it wants, which basically translates into a free action. If it takes a round to supress, it should say so. But in fact, the description says the opposite. It says the fairies can create the light at will and maintain it with concentration. So which one is it. My finalized thought on Fairy's light was that it was going to be a constant non-illuminating light that more or less activated the fairy's natural low light vision. Without it, they're almost as blind as a bat. However, the light does not illuminate for any other creatures ( Objects around the fairy ). I'm thinking ..like a firefly sortof. Not having access to low-light vision is not the same as being blind. And fireflys don't use their lights to see, they use them to attract mates. The Dodge AC is refering to any size bonuses, any magical bonuses, and any natural bonuses that would indirectly or directly affect AC. Size bonuses are not dodge bonuses. Magical bonuses are not dodge bonus unless they are explicitly dodge bonuses. Natural armor bonuses are not dodge bonuses. And dropping these bonuses by half is very iffy. There are no abilities that I'm aware of that simply cut certain bonuses in half, and such a reduction can be either no big deal or a very big deal depending on how the character is built (this could really, REALLY hurt in high level play). It's a awkward mechanic. All in all, it feels like you are going out of your way to either nerf low-light vision when it's not really a problem, or nerf the race in general. Low-light vision is good, but not so good as to penalized a creature with awkward use mechanics and penalties. The fairy is obvioulsy a fey type creature. Not obvious at all. According to certain lore, elves are very fey. Regardless, they humanoids in D&D, and your fairies could simply be very fey-like humanoids as well. Also, the dragonblooded subtype has set a precident for making races that carry some qualities of a certain type without giving them the full benefits of that type. Kobolds, for example, have been dragonblooded since Races of the Dragon and are treated as being dragons in addition to being humanoids as far as racial effects are concerned. For example, they could qualify for feats that has being of the Dragon type as requirement and take extra damage from Dragon-bane weapons, but not get the the perks normally granted by being of the dragon type, such as immunity to sleep and paralysis, immunity to spells that only target humanoids, etc. So it's very possible to create a race that is "feyblooded" instead of dragonblooded. In short, being of the fey type instead of being a humanoid like most other player races does provide a few perks that have to be taken into consideration. The biggest perk being the immunity to spells that only affect humanoids. Due to their size, I'd say some severe limitations to range of any ranged weaponry is in order and in any armor heavier than light any attack struck would have to overcome a 5/- physical to deal damage. Unlike other creatures, however, they have a higher chance of striking for unprotected areas. Considering fairies have little strength, thats nigh impossible to overcome. Well, if 8 str, your fairies are actually quite strong. They stab harder than kobolds. And why should the fairies suffer special penalties that other diminutive creatures do not? Every other small-ish creature is not faced with a penalty like this. The standard rule is that if you beat a creature ac, you always deal a minimum of 1 damage with an attack. And would this same rule apply to all creatures? What about creatures that only have natural armor? Or Mage Armor? What if a fairy attacks another fairy that's wearing armor? Like the spell-DC penalty you mentioned before, how do you explain/justify this in game? Overall, it seems like you're trying to add new mechanics and nerf to make up for this race's flight and size. However, I feel that your fixes are either needlessly complicated and/or have little effect on the race's true strengths. Well, the problem is, while geared toward spellcasters, it's too good to be balanced. It's obvious that a diminutive creature doesn't make a good melee tank, similarly to how many large creatures don't make very good arcane casters or rogues. When designing a race, you have to look at the best case scenario, and not the average case. It's not enough to simply say that because they make terrible fighters that it's okay to make them awesome mages. All of those limitations you've thrown in will be completely ignored by an arcane caster, so thus, they're useless. Any balancing factor that never sees game play is not a balancing factor at all. QFT I am not the creator...told the guy what I wanted and he refused to listen to me and buffed it up a lot....It was ignored by the maker, aparently....Almost all of the skill bonuses were added by the maker of the template and were not directly authorized by me...and I felt they were overpowered. You seem to have an idea of what you want out of the race, so why not race creation a try yourself instead of hoping that someone else gets it right. That way, your race will be exactly what you're looking for. Just remember to balance it against other races, specifically kobolds (see Dragon Wings feat chain in Races of the Dragons) and raptorians (Races of the Wild) as far as flight is concerned. Edit: Missed some points Its also to keep from being too far away with ray based attacks. Just because a ray shooting medium sized person can shoot a ray so far doesn't me an a mini version of person can shoot it just as far. In D&D, magic does not care about the caster's size. A scorching ray cast by a medium sized human wizard has the same range as a scorching ray cast by a colossal-sized dragon, has the same size as a scorching ray cast by an awakened ant. The range weapon limitation was to prevent people from peppering arrows from above or using sneak attack as an excuse for flanking ( which is impossible for dimunitive and fine, from what I read. ) DR 5/- would not stop sneak attacks, and there are feats to get around DR 5/-. Also, you can sneak attack at ranged. It's just a bit harder to do and you have to by at most 30ft from the enemy (or 60ft with Crossbow Sniper). And spells normally ignore DR anyway. Or was there another penalty I've overlooked? This race is obviously meant to be geared towards spellcasters. Conceptually and mythologically... you'd never hear of a fairy in heavy armor tearing into something six times their size. Conceptually and mythologically, you'd never hear of fairy adventurers either. But adventurers tend to break the mold, and I can SO see a fairy swordsage cutting foes to pieces in a blury whirlwind of dagger strikes. Don't tell me how to play my character :P While fairy's light is active ( which is assumed to be all the time. Having it deactivated is not something a normal fairy would do. They're meant to be nocturnal. ) any Dodge specific AC bonuses are halved. Mage armor. Size bonuses. Dex bonus. Haste. I know I went over this point, but just to make sure I'm clear. Except for the Dodge bonus granted by Haste, none of these bonuses are Dodge bonuses. A Dodge bonus is a very specific type of bonus in D&D.
RobbyPants 01-03-08, 08:57 PM	You don't get it. I wanted it to happen no matter WHEN they go past 20 feet. I was trying to convey that point but as I said, the maker of the template ignored my wishes. Well, as Fireclave mentioned, perhaps you should repost what you want the race to be then. It might be a better place to start. You'll have to go into detail about the fey's immunities. It's not so much that the fey type itself has immunities, but rather, that by not being humanoid, they're excluded from many common effects that affect only humanoids (such as Charm Person, Hold Person, and Dominate Person to name a few). By default, standard LA+0 PCs are humanoids. Creating a race that isn't humanoid grants a bonus relative to other races by default. It's not to say that this is too powerful to be LA+0, but rather that it needs to be taken into consideration. Given that the race is already very powerful, this exaserbates the problem. I don't see why you're confused about the light aspect. I really do not. I thought I explained myself rather well. While fairy's light is active ( which is assumed to be all the time. Having it deactivated is not something a normal fairy would do. They're meant to be nocturnal. ) any Dodge specific AC bonuses are halved. Mage armor. Size bonuses. Dex bonus. Haste. Anything else that I may have missed with dodge. To prevent abusing the ability to turn off the light and because its psychological to have it on all the time, it takes more than one round for it to turn off. Perhaps I should have stated what I meant better. It's not that I don't understand how the mechanic works, but rather that I didn't understand why it worked the way it works. As Fireclave also mentioned, this is one of many rather odd mechanics. Between the core rules and all the expansions that have come out, there are plenty of already created ways to handle various effects. When concering dismissible light, consider looking at the illumian's sigils in Races of Destiny. My point is that when I think of fairy light, I picture a creature that can turn it on or off at will. When on, perhaps it's used as light, or maybe a signal. When off, they want to hide. The losing 1/2 Dodge bonuses seems both unnecessary and needlessly complex. The range weapon limitation was to prevent people from peppering arrows from above or using sneak attack as an excuse for flanking ( which is impossible for dimunitive and fine, from what I read. ) Its also to keep from being too far away with ray based attacks. Just because a ray shooting medium sized person can shoot a ray so far doesn't me an a mini version of person can shoot it just as far. Again, as Fireclave already stated, it seems like you've added a lot of contrived and arbitrary limitations to the race in order to justify the diminutive size and flight. Also, you seem upset with how the creator of the template changed your ideas. Perhaps you should start from the ground up and recreate it, more how you pictured. Still, bear in mind what I said earlier: both flight and very small sizes make for potent casters. When balancing the race, you have to make penalties that will actually matter. I'm not sure you can easily do this without a level adjustment. The vertigo is certainly a step in the right direction, but making the race small instead of diminutive will go a long way to balancing it.
Shoobs 01-03-08, 10:34 PM	I came here because I was displeased with the template. The two things I definately want is the flight (with limiting by paralyzing vertigo ) and the fairy to naturally emit light. Every other stat bonus or minus I could care less about. All the skills, I could care less about. I made those mechanics because I don't want to go through litterally every single damn bloody book Wizards has made. I'm not that kind of person. I don't know the whole ECL thing and only used savage creatures because I wanted a fairy type race and searched hte net for what was closest to it and savege species gave me a way to use it in an ECL 1 campaign setting. If you can think of ways to keep the two abilities as they are given the base concepts of limitted flight and the fairy able to emit a non-illuminating light ( but gives the fairy its 'ability to see' so to speak) and following how I had the conceptualized... Go right ahead and do what you want. I want it balanced, but those two are things I don't want to do without.
Rahvan 01-04-08, 12:25 AM	Flight and small size.... tibbit (Dragon compendium) that has the dragonborn (Races of the Dragon) template and chose the wings version. tiny creature with flying.... at later levels. and a natural darkvision of 60' He will gain flying at level 6, for a limited duration, and full fledged flying at level 12
Dracoxero 01-04-08, 12:37 AM	Fairy Race Racial Traits +2 dex, +2 cha -4str, -4con Base land speed 10 ft (Fly 30ft perfect) Size: Diminutive +4 to Armor class and Attack bonus. (For size) +12 to hide (For size) Low light vision 30ft Su: A fairy is magically imbued to allow its small wings to bring her into the air. Fairy's can fly a maximum of 2 rounds, per class level she is, per day. (The wizards fly spell is level 3 and allows 1 min per level of flight.) I removed Vertigo because of the maximum flight per rounds. Spell-Like abilities: Continuous light effect that can be repressed, but a successful concentration check must be made to due so. In addition a check must be made once every round per ½ class level there after. ((IE: level 6 would have to make a concentration check every 3 rounds)) ((i am working on a simpler equation)) I am still working on the ability to fix its tweaks. i Originally had a plan of Dancing lights at will, but changed by request. -4 against fear due to it frail nature. -4 intimidate because of their appealing nature. +2 to Handle Animal because of their natural affinity towards animals -2 saves against mind effecting Immunity to magical sleep effects. Languages: Sylvan, Druidic; Bonus Languages: Elvin, Common Favored Class: Druid Any comments or critiques will be appreciated.. In addition this is just a concept, its still not to shoobs liking, I am just asking opinions. This is looking for an LA of 0....
RobbyPants 01-04-08, 10:41 AM	I came here because I was displeased with the template. The two things I definately want is the flight (with limiting by paralyzing vertigo ) and the fairy to naturally emit light. Every other stat bonus or minus I could care less about. All the skills, I could care less about. Well, that's a good reason to come here and get ideas. I made those mechanics because I don't want to go through litterally every single damn bloody book Wizards has made. I'm not that kind of person. I don't know the whole ECL thing and only used savage creatures because I wanted a fairy type race and searched hte net for what was closest to it and savege species gave me a way to use it in an ECL 1 campaign setting. The only reason I brought up the mechanics is that it's often frowned upon making new mechanics when an old one will do. It's a combination of reinventing the wheel, and making the game more complicated. If you can think of ways to keep the two abilities as they are given the base concepts of limitted flight and the fairy able to emit a non-illuminating light ( but gives the fairy its 'ability to see' so to speak) and following how I had the conceptualized... Go right ahead and do what you want. Still, I guess the whole non-illuminating light is just something we have different opinions on. It seems you want them to have a very weak source of low light vision, which is a fairly weak ability as it is. Again, in my opinion, it's unnecessary and clunky. I'd just have them give off light like a candle, suppressible at will, and/or stick with low light vision and call it good. I want it balanced, but those two are things I don't want to do without. Well, the vertigo does help keep the flight from being so powerful, but it's still a potent ability at low levels. Even more powerful is the diminutive size. Those two things make it a tough sell with no level adjustment. Honestly, I can't see any reasonable way to balance such a small size, so I think you might as well tack on a level adjustment and remove some of the arbitrary limitations. That, or just do whatever you want and don't worry what we think. ;)
Shoobs 01-04-08, 10:50 AM	How about this: Base flight and land movement. 10 feet on land, 20 feet for flight. Vertugi at 15 feet. Class level 3 flight moves to 30 feet then 5 flight moves to 40/45. Needs advanced flight ( min level 5-12 ) feat to remove vertigo. This is Class level, not race level, mind you. We're not making a fairy class template. Edit: I hate this stupid thing, this is the sixth time I'm editting and I keep hitting post reply x.x The light is simply for fluff, rp purposes. Its not meant to be a super special type of ability (which is why it has such big cons ). I don't mind reinventing the wheel because .... thats simply how I am. I'll do what I want and put things in as I see fit. I don't agree with everyone's damn adherance to a specific set of rules and trying to make everyone else conform to it. I came here not to get rid of strange or awkward mechanics...because they're MEANT to be awkward, for the race. I am a roleplayer, not a duelist. I roleplay the character, not me. I wont go and have my character find a way out of a situation that the character wouldn't know how to get out of or even where to start to look. This is contrary to most every player. Hell, I got yelled at and banned by a DM because I had a low level thief go and investigate a set of ruins and the DM wanted people to apply at a local tavern instead. She simply walked out of town after seeing the message. I told him if he wants me to follow his path, that he needs to find a way to get my character to go there, not yell at me in an out of character manner and try to get me, as a player, to put strings on her and make her go to the tavern.
RobbyPants 01-04-08, 11:30 AM	How about this: Base flight and land movement. 10 feet on land, 20 feet for flight. Vertugi at 15 feet. Class level 3 flight moves to 30 feet then 5 flight moves to 40/45. Needs advanced flight ( min level 5-12 ) feat to remove vertigo. This is Class level, not race level, mind you. We're not making a fairy class template. This seems like a reasonable approach. The idea of a feat with a minimum level qualification to remove the vertigo is nice. Edit: I hate this stupid thing, this is the sixth time I'm editting and I keep hitting post reply x.x The light is simply for fluff, rp purposes. Its not meant to be a super special type of ability (which is why it has such big cons ). I don't mind reinventing the wheel because .... thats simply how I am. I'll do what I want and put things in as I see fit. I don't agree with everyone's damn adherance to a specific set of rules and trying to make everyone else conform to it. I came here not to get rid of strange or awkward mechanics...because they're MEANT to be awkward, for the race. It's not so much that we want a bunch of conformists, but rather, that it keeps the game simple. To each their own. If you and the DM can come to some comprimise where both sides are happy, then I guess you've done what you need to. If this template is meant to be "privately" used (i.e. in his or your games only), then you really can make it whatever you want. I was just trying simplify things if this was meant for broader use (i.e. in other people's games). Hopefully it works out for you two.
Dracoxero 01-04-08, 12:59 PM	Hmm any comments people?