Post/Author/DateTime	Post
pukunui 05-05-07, 02:54 AM	Can someone please tell me why it takes a whole minute to identify a potion using Spellcraft? What do you have to do - take 1 round to look at it, smell it, taste it, and then stand there scratching your head while you think about what it might be for the remaining 9 rounds? I really feel quite strongly that 1 minute is just unnecessarily too long. I've been considering house ruling it so that it only takes 1 round or something to identify a potion with Spellcraft. What do other people think? Cheers, Jonny
Zelck 05-05-07, 03:02 AM	This might help. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSvjJEJVcVg&mode=related&search=)
CryoSilver 05-05-07, 03:03 AM	I think a minute is plenty fair. I think of it like tasting wine. After a few seconds you can say what kind it is generally, but you have to really think and analyze to say, choose a winery/year/etc.
pukunui 05-05-07, 03:20 AM	I think a minute is plenty fair. I think of it like tasting wine. After a few seconds you can say what kind it is generally, but you have to really think and analyze to say, choose a winery/year/etc. I doubt it takes wine experts a whole friggin' minute to identify a wine - the guy in the video from the link Zelck gave me isn't taking a minute to identify the wine. He's taking a minute to appreciate it and talk about it. If he was just silently tasting the wine, trying to find out what exactly it was, I bet he could do it in under 30 seconds.
CryoSilver 05-05-07, 03:27 AM	A minute isn't all that long. Maybe you can tell if it's a healing potion in a few rounds, but it might take longer to tell if it's cure light wounds, rather than cure moderate, etc. Or you could take the 'testing' route, where maybe you need to take a sample and add a chemical to it to see what comes up; sort of like a pH test, and most of the time is spent waiting for results to come back.
pukunui 05-05-07, 03:40 AM	A minute isn't all that long.In terms of figuring something out, a minute would seem like ages! I mean, if you think about all the other things that PCs can supposedly do in a minute of game-time, having them stand there wondering what a potion is for 10 rounds really just seems ludicrous. Sorry - I'm just not buying it. Identifying a potion should not take a minute. Maybe you can tell if it's a healing potion in a few rounds, but it might take longer to tell if it's cure light wounds, rather than cure moderate, etc.I'd say the difference would be in the strength of the flavor, aroma, whatever. A cure light wounds potion would effectively seem like a very "watered down" version of a cure moderate wounds potion, while a cure critical wounds potion would have a very strong flavor, aroma, etc. That's my take on it, anyway. Or you could take the 'testing' route, where maybe you need to take a sample and add a chemical to it to see what comes up; sort of like a pH test, and most of the time is spent waiting for results to come back.I can't see this taking a minute either. pH tests are pretty quick too.
CryoSilver 05-05-07, 03:49 AM	I can't see this taking a minute either. pH tests are pretty quick too. pH tests are quick. Nitrate, dissolved oxygen, hardness and other tests are not. Depends what you're testing. And as for tasting to tell the exact potion, well, here's my final thought on the matter. I'm a big fan of scotch. I drink a lot different kinds of scotch on a regular basis, and after taking a sniff and a sip, I can tell you the brand and label of the scotch I just tasted. It takes me a little longer and a couple more sips to tell you how long the scotch has been aged. Not to mention that if I didn't know whether or not drinking it would kill me (as might be the case with potions, which could be poisonous or baleful), I would have to use other, less efficient methods before tasting.
pukunui 05-05-07, 03:54 AM	OK, I can accept that ... but considering that the game rules indicate that you use the Spellcraft skill rather than some "potion identifying kit", then I would say it's pretty safe to assume there's no chemical testing involved. You're just supposed to sniff it, taste it, look at its color, consistency, etc, and use your knowledge of magic to determine what it is. I seriously don't think that should take a minute -- not for real people like you and me and especially not for supposed super-heroes ...
JLaurHughes 05-05-07, 03:58 AM	Have you ever had to Identify a chemical compound? A potion is essentially a chemical compound infused with magic.
CryoSilver 05-05-07, 04:00 AM	You're just supposed to sniff it, taste it, look at its color, consistency, etc, and use your knowledge of magic to determine what it is. I seriously don't think that should take a minute -- not for real people like you and me and especially not for supposed super-heroes ... That all depends on how potions are represented in your game. Maybe if there's a brisk trade there are standards: all cure potions are blue, all buffs are red, etc. or maybe potions are a random assortment that vary greatly depending on which hedge wizard made it. Maybe one Bull's Strength potion is thick and purple while another is as clear and thin as water. That might complicate things a bit, especially as you travel from nation to nation and culture to culture. In a desert culture, water might be too precious to waste on potions, and they're made of blood, while an arctic tribe makes theirs from ethanol to keep it from freezing as easily.
pukunui 05-05-07, 05:54 AM	Have you ever had to Identify a chemical compound? A potion is essentially a chemical compound infused with magic.Again, if this were the case, then there ought to be "potion identification kits" with all the little bits and pieces required to analyze the potion's components. This would take a lot longer than a minute because you'd have to get out your kit, set it up, take samples, mix them with different things from your kit to see what happens ... this would take hours. Because you can use Spellcraft, it means you're using your knowledge of the intricacies of magic to determine what the potion is. That all depends on how potions are represented in your game. Maybe if there's a brisk trade there are standards: all cure potions are blue, all buffs are red, etc. or maybe potions are a random assortment that vary greatly depending on which hedge wizard made it. Maybe one Bull's Strength potion is thick and purple while another is as clear and thin as water. That might complicate things a bit, especially as you travel from nation to nation and culture to culture. In a desert culture, water might be too precious to waste on potions, and they're made of blood, while an arctic tribe makes theirs from ethanol to keep it from freezing as easily.As much as I would love to have potions be that complicated in my game, it would seriously slow things down. It's a bit of the game that I'm just not interested in micromanaging to that level. It's far easier to just have all potions of a particular spell be the same. In that case, once you've had one of a particular type, you ought to need no time at all to identify subsequent ones.
tricky_bob 05-05-07, 05:57 AM	I really don't see the problem here. In what situation would you need to be in in-game where taking a minute to identify a Potion is going to cause a problem?
pukunui 05-05-07, 05:58 AM	I really don't see the problem here. In what situation would you need to be in in-game where taking a minute to identify a Potion is going to cause a problem? It just seems unnecessary. It doesn't make sense - and, yes, I know, why should things have to make sense in a game with magic and dragons, blah blah blah. The thing is, for the most part, the game designers have tried very hard to make magic and dragons seem believable -- i.e. they try to make them make sense. And, to me, having it take a whole minute to identify a potion just doesn't make sense.
CryoSilver 05-05-07, 05:58 AM	Well that's one way of doing it, and in some cases it makes sense. Of course, you COULD use the Quick Identification epic use of Spellcraft. It's DC 50, but you could probably grant a +20 bonus to identify a potion that you've identified a copy of before if they're all exactly the same.
pukunui 05-05-07, 06:00 AM	Well that's one way of doing it, and in some cases it makes sense. Of course, you COULD use the Quick Identification epic use of Spellcraft. It's DC 50, but you could probably grant a +20 bonus to identify a potion that you've identified a copy of before if they're all exactly the same. Hmm, that's a thought. I was actually contemplating coming up with a list of what all the potions taste/smell like. I know that would take a long time, but it would be an ongoing thing. Each time they encountered or made a new potion themselves, I'd decide what it tasted, smelled, looked like and then write it down. You know, so cure potions all taste like honey and are fairly syrupy or something, and the strength of the sweetness/syrupy-ness or whatever would indicate what type of cure potion it was. A potion of bull's strength might smell like beef stew or something ... ;) Anyway ...
CryoSilver 05-05-07, 06:16 AM	I played a dwarven wizard in a game a while ago, and all of his potions were shots of liquor. Cure potions were whiskey Ability buffs were vodka Remove Disease was brandy Neutralize Poison was gin Other buffs were various liqueurs It made things interesting because if you drank too many potions, you tended to end up drunk about 10 minutes after the battle.
pukunui 05-05-07, 06:39 AM	I played a dwarven wizard in a game a while ago, and all of his potions were shots of liquor. Cure potions were whiskey Ability buffs were vodka Remove Disease was brandy Neutralize Poison was gin Other buffs were various liqueurs It made things interesting because if you drank too many potions, you tended to end up drunk about 10 minutes after the battle. LOL. Did you use the rules for getting drunk from the Arms & Equipment Guide? I used them for a drinking contest in which my players participated. It got a bit ridiculous with DCs of 200+ but it was nevertheless quite fun.
tricky_bob 05-05-07, 06:48 AM	:twitch: A WHOLE minute...dude, what are you on? In-game, unless you're trying to identify a Potion during combat, a minute is like nothing. :twitch:
pukunui 05-05-07, 06:50 AM	:twitch: A WHOLE minute...dude, what are you on? In-game, unless you're trying to identify a Potion during combat, a minute is like nothing. :twitch: It's the principle of the thing.
CryoSilver 05-05-07, 07:24 AM	LOL. Did you use the rules for getting drunk from the Arms & Equipment Guide? I used them for a drinking contest in which my players participated. It got a bit ridiculous with DCs of 200+ but it was nevertheless quite fun. I use a simple system: DC 10+1 per drink in the previous hour. Fail a save and you take 1 point of Dex and Int damage. Fail three in a row and you pass out for a while.
Nom 05-05-07, 09:13 AM	Also note that you probably aren't tasting the potion in any meaningful manner. According to the DMG, a potion vial is typically less than 2 in. high by 1 in. round, and holds an ounce of liquid. That's a pretty small quantity anyway, let alone trying to sip it. And if it turns out to be poison or something worse, you definitely don't want to be sipping it. Sure, you can simply drink the stuff and make a DC 25+spell level spellcraft check as a free action, but that sorta defeats the purpose, doesn't it?
Captain_Kobold 05-05-07, 10:04 AM	Also, unless you are in a very regimented game world with universal standards, a cure light wounds potion is not going to be the same wherever you go. Like a previous poster alluded to, different creators would use different ingredents. You aren't just tasting it to see what it tastes like, you are also carefully inspecting it to pick up other cues about what went into it. Given the prevalence of assorted potions of nastiness, tasting it is probably a bad idea. Once you have decided the components, you are using your knowledge of spellcraft to calculate what sort of effect those ingredients would combine to make. Its not just a case of: *Sip* "Cowpat. Must be a Bulls strength" *Sip* "Ahhh. Minty freshness. Restoration potion" *Sip* "Hmmm. Bitter almonds." *Gasp* *Choke* *Thud*
BW0222 05-05-07, 04:05 PM	Folks, I have no problem with a minute. There are potentially hundreds of spells which could be put into potions and some of them are mighty dangerous. It's been a long time since chemistry, but I remember that labs were three hours long. Even telling the difference between elements was hard enough... let alone compounds in solution. Just clearing some space, sitting, carefully removing the stopper, pouring out a few drops on to some non-porous material, checking it's color against the light, looking if it is a solution or suspension, etc. could easily take a minute.
pukunui 05-05-07, 05:08 PM	Its not just a case of: *Sip* "Cowpat. Must be a Bulls strength" *Sip* "Ahhh. Minty freshness. Restoration potion" *Sip* "Hmmm. Bitter almonds." *Gasp* *Choke* *Thud*This is exactly what I'm saying it is like in my game ... but not because it's a "very regimented game world with universal standards" but because it's a helluva lot easier and faster. They can easily identify a potion by taste/smell/sight/whatever and get on to doing something else.
Guan 05-05-07, 05:49 PM	I'm confused. A minute seems extraordinarily fast to identify something. Identifying a magic item takes a lot longer... But, if it bothered you that much role into into a class as a class ability. Something like, "Quickened Potion Identification" or something. Give it for free as a wizard, Sorcerer, Bard and/or cleric at a certain level. Or maybe a bonus for having 10 ranks in Spellcraft or something. I really can't think of identying any food type substance I know that quickly, let alone chemical compounds.
pukunui 05-05-07, 06:01 PM	I really can't think of identying any food type substance I know that quickly, let alone chemical compounds.I used to make cocktails of fruit juice and soda and the like for a friend of mine, and he was always able to identify the components (orange juice, grape juice, 7up, or whatever) in less than a minute.
Nom 05-05-07, 07:01 PM	I used to make cocktails of fruit juice and soda and the like for a friend of mine, and he was always able to identify the components (orange juice, grape juice, 7up, or whatever) in less than a minute.Like I said, you can identify most potions in a standard action if you're willing to drink them. It's doing it in a non-destructive manner that doesn't risk contamination (either of yourself or the potion) that is more time consuming.
pukunui 05-05-07, 07:41 PM	Like I said, you can identify most potions in a standard action if you're willing to drink them. It's doing it in a non-destructive manner that doesn't risk contamination (either of yourself or the potion) that is more time consuming. I suppose I can understand that. I wish they had been a bit more specific as to how one identifies a potion with Spellcraft. It doesn't ever tell you ... BTW, the DMG seems to suggest that all potions of a particular type always taste the same. On p. 229, it reads: "In addition to the standard methods of identification, PCs can sample from each container they find to attempt to determine the nature of the liquid inside. An experienced character learns to identify potions by memory--for example, the last time she tasted a liquid that reminded her of almonds, it turned out to be a potion of cure moderate wounds. (You can reward players who keep records of potion sampling by always having the same type of potion taste the same". It does go on to say you can mix it up too - but the fact that the DMG suggests making them the same means that I'm not totally crazy.
Vaelan 05-05-07, 11:46 PM	BTW, the DMG seems to suggest that all potions of a particular type always taste the same. No, it suggests that a DM might want to rule as such. That is quite different.
Someone 05-06-07, 12:22 AM	The problem with playing potions by taste is that its like modern drugs- there can be different examples that do the same thing. In D&D, aspirin and Viagra could taste the same, while aspirin made by different manufacturers could taste completely different. They wouldn't even be labeled most of the time.
Dragonteuthis 05-06-07, 12:40 AM	Have you ever attempted to simplify a quadratic formula in your head? Done long division? Well, that was a requirement of my old math tutor. Let me tell you, it's not quick. Sure, you know the stuff, and you get the right answer, but you *do* have to think about it for a while. That's exactly what a would-be potion identifier is doing...he's solving the quadratic formula for that particular potion in his head using NOTHING but taste and odor*. Now, go ahead and tell me that wouldn't take more than six seconds and I'll laugh long and hard. * - and consistency, viscousity, turbidity, etc. Okay, don't lynch me.
Nat_20 05-06-07, 12:54 AM	one minute and a spellcraft check seems fine to me, its better than wasting a pearl and a spell slot/spell per day
bobothechimp 05-06-07, 01:03 AM	You have to test several things about a potion before you can determine its effects. A potion of Cure Light Wounds may smell the same as a potion of Fire Breath, may have the same color as a potion of Mage Armor, the same viscousity as a poison, the same taste as lemonade. Identifying potions involves using all of these in order to figure out what kind of potion it is. You don't simply look at a potion and instantly know exactly what it is.
pukunui 05-06-07, 01:15 AM	OK - first, let me get something straight. People are starting to argue on the basis that potions of a particular type don't always taste the same. However, I have already established that in my campaign world, they do, so continuing to argue to the contrary is something of a moot point. So while identifying a potion that you've never tried before might take a minute, identifying one that you have had before shouldn't take long at all. No, it suggests that a DM might want to rule as such. That is quite different.Sorry, but I disagree. The wording in the DMG suggests to me that "potions of a particular type always taste the same" is the default but that DMs might want to rule that they don't all taste the same. You have to test several things about a potion before you can determine its effects. A potion of Cure Light Wounds may smell the same as a potion of Fire Breath, may have the same color as a potion of Mage Armor, the same viscousity as a poison, the same taste as lemonade. Identifying potions involves using all of these in order to figure out what kind of potion it is. You don't simply look at a potion and instantly know exactly what it is. Have you ever attempted to simplify a quadratic formula in your head? Done long division?No, and I wouldn't be able to simplify a quadratic equation or do long division in my head in any length of time ... :P That's exactly what a would-be potion identifier is doing...he's solving the quadratic formula for that particular potion in his head using NOTHING but taste and odor*. Now, go ahead and tell me that wouldn't take more than six seconds and I'll laugh long and hard.I agree that it would take longer than six seconds (but so too, I think, would a number of things that the game nevertheless allows characters to do in 6 seconds or less) ... however, I still don't think that it would necessarily take 60 seconds. Have you ever sat there and thought thoughts while watching the clock? You can actually do a lot of thinking in 60 seconds.
Captain_Kobold 05-06-07, 01:40 AM	OK - first, let me get something straight. People are starting to argue on the basis that potions of a particular type don't always taste the same. However, I have already established that in my campaign world, they do, so continuing to argue to the contrary is something of a moot point. I think they were always assuming that potions were different. Now that you have started to establish what potions are like in your particular setting, we can use that as a basis for thought. As opposed to trying to go by your original post. So while identifying a potion that you've never tried before might take a minute, identifying one that you have had before shouldn't take long at all. Nope. Should be doable in 1 round (a little longer if you need to write a new label for it). Do you require your PCs to actually taste the potion (and thus suffer all the ill effects if it is not benign) in order to identify it? Or are potions in your setting distinctive enough that just unstoppering the container and looking works?
pukunui 05-06-07, 01:48 AM	[QUOTE=pukunui;12311912]I think they were always assuming that potions were different. Now that you have started to establish what potions are like in your particular setting, we can use that as a basis for thought. As opposed to trying to go by your original post.I had established my approach with potions by post #11. I guess I just assumed people would read the whole thread before posting rather than just my original post. Nope. Should be doable in 1 round (a little longer if you need to write a new label for it). Do you require your PCs to actually taste the potion (and thus suffer all the ill effects if it is not benign) in order to identify it? Or are potions in your setting distinctive enough that just unstoppering the container and looking works?Well, the DMG talks about sampling potions as a way of identifying them. I think it means that you wouldn't get the full effect of whatever it is but enough to know that it's either good or bad. If it's a potion of bull's strength, a little sip might make you start to feel a bit stronger but not enough to actually have a mechanical effect, while sipping a poison might be enough to make you feel sick but not enough to take the poison's initial damage.
ScipioX 05-06-07, 02:03 AM	pukunui: you've pretty obviously already made up your mind about this issue, so why are you debating it on the internet? If that's how you feel about it, go right ahead and house rule away. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. As far as the logic of identifying a potion, you have to look at the skill being used. It's spellcraft. Since you have decided in your campaign that all potions of the same type taste alike, spellcraft is not even needed. Anybody can identify a potion that they've had before.
pukunui 05-06-07, 02:25 AM	pukunui: you've pretty obviously already made up your mind about this issue, so why are you debating it on the internet? If that's how you feel about it, go right ahead and house rule away. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.I hadn't made up my mind when I first started this thread. People's answers helped me make up my mind, though. I had already been telling my players that various potions appeared to be similar to ones they'd had before (if they had had them before), but I've now confirmed that I'm going to go that route, and I'm going to start coming up with definite tastes, aromas, whatever for each type of potion. As far as the logic of identifying a potion, you have to look at the skill being used. It's spellcraft. Since you have decided in your campaign that all potions of the same type taste alike, spellcraft is not even needed. Anybody can identify a potion that they've had before.Well, they would still need to use Spellcraft to identify a potion no one had ever had before.
stargzrrag 05-06-07, 03:33 AM	Personally, I still use reagents from 3.0. 1gp for an alchemical item that lets you do a spellcraft roll. I have also been considering allowing craft(alchemy) to sub for the reagent.
Duncs 05-06-07, 07:12 AM	That all depends on how potions are represented in your game. Maybe if there's a brisk trade there are standards: all cure potions are blue, all buffs are red, etc. or maybe potions are a random assortment that vary greatly depending on which hedge wizard made it. Maybe one Bull's Strength potion is thick and purple while another is as clear and thin as water. That might complicate things a bit, especially as you travel from nation to nation and culture to culture. In a desert culture, water might be too precious to waste on potions, and they're made of blood, while an arctic tribe makes theirs from ethanol to keep it from freezing as easily. It just seems unnecessary. It doesn't make sense - and, yes, I know, why should things have to make sense in a game with magic and dragons, blah blah blah. The thing is, for the most part, the game designers have tried very hard to make magic and dragons seem believable -- i.e. they try to make them make sense. And, to me, having it take a whole minute to identify a potion just doesn't make sense. In my eyes, the top quote makes a lot of sense. Why would everything be standardised? There could be many reasons, such as the magic determining the qualities etc. However, there are reasons why it wouldnt be - not everyone has the same ingredients (raw material costs of the potions) and so there would probably be some variation. 1 minute to identify potions in the topmost quote would be reasonable. As you say, things should make sense. Now, if you want to say that in *your* campaign all potions are standardised, then thats absolutely fine. Makes sense too. And thus yes, maybe you should make it take 1-2 rounds to identify them. Great. The problem is, that this is such a minor issue and subject almost entirely to DM tastes, that it doesnt warrant this huge outburst :P. The rule in the rulebooks is probably a compromise. I wouldnt have qualms about making it take 5 minutes to identify a potion without magical methods (using only your knowledge), if they were all varied because of cultural or personal differences. 5 minutes is too long for other DM views on potion making though. However, 1 round is far too quick for such things. 1 minute is about right, its a nice compromise. But in the end, just do it you way and be happy about it. (And for the record, looking at your first few posts it certainly looks like you went into this issue with a bit of a closed mind. You said there was no reason for it being a minute long, and when people provided reasons you just dismissed them, eventually retreating to 'It's my campaign i'll do what I want.' Which is the perfect answer to a problem like this)
Derren S. 05-06-07, 12:48 PM	What you are forgetting is that potions are no drinks or even alchemical mixtures. They are spells bound in a liquid. The effect the potion has does not come from its components. Most likely potions do not contain any other materials except the base liquid and all other materials get used up when crafting the potions. That would mean that tasting a potion would give no hint at al to what the potion is supposed to do as the spell effect is independant from the liquid. Also by tasting you use up quite a bit of the potion which means it would become unuseable as you have to drink all of it for an effect.
texanhick20 05-06-07, 02:39 PM	I kinda skipped through and skimmed the posts so this might have been brought up. letting it take any time /less/ than a minute, makes identifying potions a tacticle possibility. This could then lead to being possibly unbalancing to the game.
Galahdeon 05-06-07, 04:53 PM	Ok i one thing my DM did for us was testing the potion, taking a drop of it and tasting it, then a Spell craft check to identify the effects i would think that could take around 2 or more rounds. the DC i think was based off the level of the spell contianedin the potion so level 3 spell would be a DC of 13. Or you could just take your time for the spell craft check.
Jaxgaret 05-06-07, 05:11 PM	Identify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/identify.htm) The spell Identify takes an hour and costs 100gp. And you're complaining about a use that takes a minute and costs nothing? Seriously, just let it go. You have better things to worry about.
Thiez 05-06-07, 05:40 PM	Let's get this over with: Rock of Magical Liquid Identification If you hold this rock and drop a single drop of a magical potion on it, it will automagically identify the potion and let you know telepathically. Using the rock to identify a potion this way is a standard action. Moderate Divination; CL 10th; Craft Wonderous Item, Arcane Sight, creator must have 10 ranks in the Spellcraft skill; Price 1,000 gp. Ta-da! :D
Nom 05-06-07, 07:31 PM	using NOTHING but taste and odor*See above. I put it to you that he is quite likely not opening the vial at all. A potion vial is not a soft drink bottle. A dose of potion is 1 ounce / ~30 ml, which is the size of a over-large teaspoon. Actually getting a sample from something that small requires fairly careful handling to prevent your "sample" from being "the whole thing". It's also possible that pulling the stopper on a potion (or oil) starts a magical process going. He might be using smell or taste (risky), or he might just be examining the thing closely looking for tell-tale magical signs.
pukunui 05-07-07, 01:08 AM	Except that the DMG explicitly states that you can identify potions by sampling them ...
Nom 05-07-07, 01:50 AM	Except that the DMG explicitly states that you can identify potions by sampling them ...(1) True. But that's using experience, not Spellcraft ("In addition to the standard methods of identification, ...", DMG pg 229). A character can use Spellcraft to identify a potion regardless of whether they've experienced it before. (2) Sampling the potion entails a variety of risks that Spellcraft doesn't (eg that the "potion" is actually poison or acid). (3) It wouldn't be the first time that the D&D rulebooks forgot to check flavour rules for common sense (pun intended). That said, it's going to take some time - possibly several rounds - to sample a potion in this manner, since you will need to carefully extract a single drop or two and apply directly to the tongue.