Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dionon 05-30-07, 10:46 PM	Ok, Me and my DM can't find an answer to this conundrum... We are making a Deity Campaign, and I'm playing a Fighter 20/Monk 20 Deity of War, Protection, Celerity and Balance. I have Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Flurry of Blows and two Speed Monk Weapons.... We can't find rulings in the book that state whether I get 12 attacks per round, 8 Attacks per round or 7 Attacks per round during a full attack... I mean the SRD says When unarmored, a monk may strike with a flurry of blows at the expense of accuracy. When doing so, she may make one extra attack in a round at her highest base attack bonus. When a monk reaches 11th level, her flurry of blows ability improves. In addition to the standard single extra attack she gets from flurry of blows, she gets a second extra attack at her full base attack bonus. and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting states You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons. And for Speed it states When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. From what I read there, I have 12, but we're really not sure... please help me.
Lecen_of_Mitran 05-30-07, 10:55 PM	Two speed weapons do NOT stack. You can flurry and fight with two weapons. At your lvl, you would get -2 penalty on attacks.
Shedeo 05-30-07, 11:03 PM	Actually, I would rule that two weapons of speed do stack. Its not like its terribly broken, and it makes sense. Now, I'm not your DM (obvioiusly) however that's my opinion. That being said, it would appear to me that you would have 12 attacks in a round.
strenoth 05-31-07, 02:10 AM	Ok, via BaB 20 you have 4 attacks, primary weapon, which in this case is a monk weapon. Flurry at that levels givesyou 2 bonus attacks (for 6 total) Reads to me like PTWF gives you 6 matching ones with your off hand. You are now at 12 your weapons of speed do NOT stack with each other or haste, so you get a total of one more, for 13 total. Did I miss anything?
AAB 05-31-07, 02:29 AM	perfect TWF doesn't match the flurry of blows, since those can actually be from any limb or weapon you want. so that's 4 primary, 4 secondary from an off-hand, 2 from flurry, and one from each hand from speed. i'd say that they stack, at least.
utilitarian 05-31-07, 02:34 AM	Actually, I would rule that two weapons of speed do stack. Its not like its terribly broken, and it makes sense. Now, I'm not your DM (obvioiusly) however that's my opinion. That being said, it would appear to me that you would have 12 attacks in a round. While you can hypothetically house rule that, it's not something that NEEDS houseruling. It's stated very specifically on official rules that Speed weapons do NOT stack.
Novacat 05-31-07, 02:43 AM	Shedeo and AAB, your opinions on whether or not weapons of Speed should stack has no bearing on whether or not they do stack. They clearly do not, and so stating that they do serves only to further confuse an issue that could potentially be somewhat confusing already. This is a question of rules, not opinions. In regards the question, here's how I read it: you get your normal 4 for BAB, +4 for PTWF, then you add your 2 extra attacks from Flurry of Blows, then your 1 extra for a Speed weapon. This totals 11 attacks per round. Note that for this to work, you must have taken your 20 levels of Fighter first, followed by your 20 levels of Monk. Good luck building an extremely epic character from scratch, and be careful to read the epic rules (particularly those regarding Epic Attack Bonuses and Epic Save Bonuses) carefully.
risner 05-31-07, 04:08 AM	Fighter 20/Monk 20 Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Flurry of Blows and two Speed Monk Weapons.... We can't find rulings in the book that state whether I get 12 attacks per round, 8 Attacks per round or 7 Attacks per round during a full attack... Assume you go fighter 20 then monk 20 and only assume +20 BAB (since Epic Attack Bonus isn't BAB unless you take the feats.) Attacks: +18/+13/+8/+3 from +20 BAB with -2 TWF & -0 GF +18/+13/+8/+3 from perfect twf with -2 TWF & -0 GF +18/+18 from greater flurry with -2 TWF & -0 GF +18 from one speed weapon with -2 TWF & -0 GF So a total of 11 attacks. Speed weapons operate on the wielder and not the weapon, so they don't stack with haste or other speed weapons. Also, the weapon used in all attacks must be flurry compatible (iirc.)
Steely_Dan 05-31-07, 07:54 AM	Ok, via BaB 20 you have 4 attacks, primary weapon, which in this case is a monk weapon. Flurry at that levels givesyou 2 bonus attacks (for 6 total) Reads to me like PTWF gives you 6 matching ones with your off hand. You are now at 12 your weapons of speed do NOT stack with each other or haste, so you get a total of one more, for 13 total. Did I miss anything? Nope – you nailed it.
risner 05-31-07, 09:53 AM	Nope – you nailed it. No, that is not correct. If that is what you mean by nailed it.
Steely_Dan 05-31-07, 09:59 AM	No, that is not correct. If that is what you mean by nailed it. Yes, it is correct. The exact wording for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting in CW states that you gain as many extra attacks with your off-hand as you have with your main hand, and since you are getting 6 attacks with you main hand (due to BAB +20 and flurry) you gain 6 attacks with your off-hand, plus the extra attack from the speed enchantment – 13 attacks per round. …So there you have it.
Bob Loblaw 05-31-07, 10:19 AM	Just to make it fun, throw in Snap Kick from Tome of Battle. It will grant you an extra unarmed attack with everything taking an additional -2 to hit.
Steely_Dan 05-31-07, 10:29 AM	Just to make it fun, throw in Snap Kick from Tome of Battle. It will grant you an extra unarmed attack with everything taking an additional -2 to hit. Yep, and what about Slashing Fury and Versatile Strike?
elondir 05-31-07, 10:33 AM	Why don't two speed weapons stack?
Steely_Dan 05-31-07, 10:39 AM	Why don't two speed weapons stack? Because the speed enchantment grants the wielder an extra attack, not the weapon, and haste like effects (such as speed) do not stack.
Yalon 05-31-07, 10:43 AM	You're 40th level... just go Dervish and Tempest for dozens of attacks per round. And dump speed altogether and get boots of speed. Same effect, but better, for only 12k.
risner 05-31-07, 04:24 PM	…So there you have it. There you have you mis interpreting the rules. You are only gaining 4 attacks with your primary hand. Flurry is an additional attack method, same as snap kick and speed weapons. With your flawed interpretation you would get more than 6.
death from above 05-31-07, 04:32 PM	You're 40th level... just go Dervish and Tempest for dozens of attacks per round. And dump speed altogether and get boots of speed. Same effect, but better, for only 12k. Well, if you're fortieth level, I somehow doubt you're worried about coin. Why not go out and buy a +10 holy avenging super double speed greatsword of twelve attacks? That's what I would do if I were a munchkin.
Johnny_Angel 05-31-07, 07:37 PM	Ok, via BaB 20 you have 4 attacks, primary weapon, which in this case is a monk weapon. Flurry at that levels givesyou 2 bonus attacks (for 6 total) Reads to me like PTWF gives you 6 matching ones with your off hand. You are now at 12 your weapons of speed do NOT stack with each other or haste, so you get a total of one more, for 13 total. Did I miss anything? I agree with Strenoth's take on it. Speed weapons DO NOT stack with each other, nor do they stack with haste. IIRC, it says so right in the description of the speed enchantment. 6 flurry strikes + 6 from PTWF + 1 from Speed = 13
dragynson1 05-31-07, 08:00 PM	hmm, may i make a suggestion fighter 22, monk 12. tempest 5, exotic weapon master 1 use a bastard sword with the feat that allows you to pick a martial or exotic weapon to flurry with make it a KI weapon to stun with. Pick the EWM trick that allows double strength damage with an exotic one handed weapon held in two hands. 4 bab 2 flurry, 6 offhand, 1 speed. all 13 attacks at no negs, 7 at 2xstr,and double power attack and 6 attacks at +strength or go spiked chain and get spiked chain flurry, for another extra attack, bringing the grand total to 4 bab, 2 flurry, 1 spiked chain flurry. 7 perfect two weapon +1 speed. all 15 attacks at -2, with +1.5x strength and double power attack on 8 and +strength on 7 offhand unarmed strikes. ,add in slashing fury, versatile unarmed strike and snap kick for 19, but you could probbaly get 20 attacks somehow. ( PS dont need versatile unarmed strike with the bastard sword but only get 16 attacks) if your gonna crunch numbers then you may as well crunch em to bits.
kalstrand 05-31-07, 09:12 PM	A spiked chain is a 2 handed weapon so you can't two weapon fight with it.
AAB 06-01-07, 01:28 AM	you can make an unarmed attack as an off-hand attack. including elbows, knees, head-butts, etc. i'm assuming that's what they're talking about.
Steely_Dan 06-01-07, 02:39 AM	There you have you mis interpreting the rules. You are only gaining 4 attacks with your primary hand. Flurry is an additional attack method, same as snap kick and speed weapons. With your flawed interpretation you would get more than 6. Now that I think about it, you may be right, but hey, we're just having a friendly conversation, and it seems like you're being condescending towards me. Would appreciate if we could just discuss this reasonably – thanks.
kainpendragon 06-01-07, 12:48 PM	Yes, it is correct. The exact wording for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting in CW states that you gain as many extra attacks with your off-hand as you have with your main hand, and since you are getting 6 attacks with you main hand (due to BAB +20 and flurry) you gain 6 attacks with your off-hand, plus the extra attack from the speed enchantment – 13 attacks per round. …So there you have it. by the way that worded you could get 14 attacks if the speed hancemnt is on the weapon in your primary hand because that is the weapon that get the extra attack. Unless there is clause at the end of it that says perfect two-weapon fighting does not work with haste. with that statment i don't think you can choose to attack with another weapon for your extra attack granted from speed. That would mean the feat is broken. I think it makes more sense to say the weapon is speed up and not the player. that way a person has to pay for +3 mod twice instead of once and that it does not stack with haste. either way one part is broken
Dark1ord 06-01-07, 02:12 PM	quoting from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting, wouldn't a line like "You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus" indicate that you at most get 4 extra attacks (from a full bab)?...
Johnny_Angel 06-01-07, 02:48 PM	quoting from http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#perfectTwoWeaponFighting, wouldn't a line like "You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus" indicate that you at most get 4 extra attacks (from a full bab)?... You make a good point, but a monk using flurry would get more than 4 attacks with his/her primary hand. Believe it or not, this is actually one time when a monk can benefit from something in a way that other classes can't. Also, if you want to get technical about it: A monk doesn't take the penalties for fighting with two weapons. Why? Well, a monk has no such thing as an off hand when fighting unarmed or while using monk weapons; therefore the monk would not take the penalty for fighting with an off hand. Also, a monk's unarmed strikes are considered light weapons (but they still benefit from power attack and stuff like that.) Benefit You can make as many attacks with your off-hand weapon as with your primary weapon, using the same base attack bonus. You still take the normal penalties for fighting with two weapons. 6+6 = 12 +1 from speed = 13 If you really want to get crazy you can then take the feat from PHB2 that allows a monk to treat his unarmed strikes as slashing and piercing weapons; take the Dervish PrC and use the thousand cuts ability in combination with all of this for an even more insane amount of attacks. However, everyone else at the table will probably get tired of waiting an hour every time you need to roll your attacks.
utilitarian 06-01-07, 04:12 PM	I'm with Johnny_Angel on this one, especially considering how low your attack bonus would be on a large majority of these attacks.
Tsuul 06-01-07, 05:01 PM	Well, a monk has no such thing as an off hand when fighting unarmed or while using monk weapons; therefore the monk would not take the penalty for fighting with an off hand.That line you are referring to only applies to non-twf. A monk can punch with his right hand then punch with his left with no penalty to his Str score for using and off-hand weapon (his left hand); this is all considered a "main-hand" attack. However when you TWF, the "off-hand" attacks can not be any weapon you previously used in you "main hand" attack sequence. So, yes, if a monk uses TWF and designates his unarmed strikes to be the "off hand" weapon, it does indeed take all penalties associated with TWF, including half strength. Monks also have a special ability to mix weapons used in an attack as long as they are monk weapons. This mixing considers all those weapons to be of the same "hand". Theoretically a monk could flurry "main hand" a kama, and mix various other monk weapons in the "off hand" sequence.
Johnny_Angel 06-01-07, 06:03 PM	That line you are referring to only applies to non-twf. A monk can punch with his right hand then punch with his left with no penalty to his Str score for using and off-hand weapon (his left hand); this is all considered a "main-hand" attack. However when you TWF, the "off-hand" attacks can not be any weapon you previously used in you "main hand" attack sequence. So, yes, if a monk uses TWF and designates his unarmed strikes to be the "off hand" weapon, it does indeed take all penalties associated with TWF, including half strength. Monks also have a special ability to mix weapons used in an attack as long as they are monk weapons. This mixing considers all those weapons to be of the same "hand". Theoretically a monk could flurry "main hand" a kama, and mix various other monk weapons in the "off hand" sequence. Where does it say that only applies to non-TWF attacks? Where does it even say I have to use hands? I could punch and kick at the same time if I really wanted to. Just different opinions I guess, but I -personally- would rule it that way...that the monk doesn't take the off-hand penalty. If I was playing under a DM who ruled differently I would accept his/her ruling, but I would still continue to rule it the way I feel that it is correct in my games.
Tsuul 06-01-07, 06:38 PM	Where does it say that only applies to non-TWF attacks?The FAQ says you apply the TWF penalties for a monk TWF and flurrying. A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for twoweapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows. There are other places in the FAQ that point out the restriction on a weapon used in the "off hand*" may not be used in the "main hand*". Where does it even say I have to use hands?I was keeping things simple. Thats why I was always putting "main hand" and "off hand" in quotes. Cause a monk can unarmed strike with belly slaps if he wanted to. You still designate the belly slap as a "main hand" or "off hand" weapon for determining TWF penalties.
utilitarian 06-01-07, 06:40 PM	My dual wielding monk explicitly uses "Head Butting" and "Hip Checking" as his primary and off hand attacks.
Tsuul 06-01-07, 07:00 PM	If the off-hand attack is a weapon, that weapon isn’t available for use in the flurry (if it can be used in a flurry at all, see the previous question).Head butting and hip checking are unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes are 1 weapon. Chalk it up to poor design if you want.
utilitarian 06-01-07, 07:02 PM	Head butting and hip checking are unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes are 1 weapon. Chalk it up to poor design if you want. I wasn't suggesting that this somehow allowed me to bypass the flurry of blows restriction. I was merely attempting to be funny.
Nathreet 06-01-07, 07:05 PM	4 (BAB) + 4 (PTWF) + 2 (GFoB) + 1 (speed) = 11 Multiple speed/haste/etc. effects don't stack. The SRD says so specifically. FAQ gives a specific example showing that FoB and TWF stack. It even tacks on rapid shot w/ shurikens (a monk weapon) to add yet another attack. I'd take boots of speed over the speed enchantment myself, but probably too late for you. As for the rapid shot idea, the -2 AB to your other 11 attacks makes it a bad idea.
Tsuul 06-01-07, 07:15 PM	I was merely attempting to be funny.I've heard of DMs allowing Unarmed strikes to be Two-handed for the str bonus. THF a head butt or belly slap would be funny to see. Fear the monk who wants to fight you with both hands tied behind his back.:D
utilitarian 06-01-07, 07:19 PM	I've heard of DMs allowing Unarmed strikes to be Two-handed for the str bonus. THF a head butt or belly slap would be funny to see. Fear the monk who wants to fight you with both hands tied behind his back.:D Hypothetically your could play a parapalegic monk with no arms just fine. Wear your rings on your toes and bracers around your ankles.
GhostStepper 06-01-07, 08:16 PM	I've heard of DMs allowing Unarmed strikes to be Two-handed for the str bonus. THF a head butt or belly slap would be funny to see. Fear the monk who wants to fight you with both hands tied behind his back.:D I think there's a feat in a faerun book that lets dwarves do that actually.
risner 06-02-07, 01:55 AM	I think there's a feat in a faerun book that lets dwarves do that actually. Yes, was also in Dragon Compendium and a Dragon magazine. It was rather limiting, far less interesting that it sounds.
Dark1ord 06-02-07, 11:19 AM	You make a good point, but a monk using flurry would get more than 4 attacks with his/her primary hand.I was just trying to point out the rather obvious fact that TWF gives 1 extra attack. ITWF gives 1 extra attack. GTWF gives 1 extra attack. PTWF... well... "gives 1 extra attack" seems pretty logical here. remember, we're talking about base attack bonus, not "(main hand) attack sequence modified by [whatnot]". so, that would give us for bab below 6, 1 attack from bab and 1 attack from twf. for bab below 11, 2 attacks from bab and 2 attacks from twf+itwf. for bab below 16, 3 attacks from bab and 3 attack from twf+itwf+gtwf for bab below... well, before we reach epic, 4 from bab and the 3 already mentioned. then, when we reach epic - 4 regular, still, and 4 from twf+itwf+gtwf. (I can't really say "below 21" here. the "bab mirror" idea is still there, pretty much.) any additional attacks are added to that afterwards (including modifications to attack values). yeah? btw. this is one of those discussions that pop up every once in a while - I'm not saying anything out of the ordinary here. besides, if people want to play with the other, more "effective" way of treating PTWF... go for it. should fit the power-slide mentality nicely. ;)
Johnny_Angel 06-02-07, 05:04 PM	I was just trying to point out the rather obvious fact that TWF gives 1 extra attack. ITWF gives 1 extra attack. GTWF gives 1 extra attack. PTWF... well... "gives 1 extra attack" seems pretty logical here. remember, we're talking about base attack bonus, not "(main hand) attack sequence modified by [whatnot]". so, that would give us for bab below 6, 1 attack from bab and 1 attack from twf. for bab below 11, 2 attacks from bab and 2 attacks from twf+itwf. for bab below 16, 3 attacks from bab and 3 attack from twf+itwf+gtwf for bab below... well, before we reach epic, 4 from bab and the 3 already mentioned. then, when we reach epic - 4 regular, still, and 4 from twf+itwf+gtwf. (I can't really say "below 21" here. the "bab mirror" idea is still there, pretty much.) any additional attacks are added to that afterwards (including modifications to attack values). yeah? btw. this is one of those discussions that pop up every once in a while - I'm not saying anything out of the ordinary here. besides, if people want to play with the other, more "effective" way of treating PTWF... go for it. should fit the power-slide mentality nicely. ;) I understand where you are coming from, and I really do understand your logic, but the feat doesn't give you one extra attack - it gives you as many attacks with your off hand as you can make with your primary hand. All I can really say is that we have different opinions. I think it's funny how people gripe and moan about the monk "being underpowered" and then those same people turn around and complain and argue because there's a situation in which the monk actually ends up benefitting more. Not saying you're one of those people; just saying that I see it happen. Also, I don't really see how it's any more "broken," "overpowered," or whatever you want to call it than the high level character using a ranged weapon and doing manyshot out the wahzoo. So it's ok for a ranger/fighter/barbarian/etc, but it's not ok for the monk - a class that people complain is underpowered? Like I said, it's just two different schools of thought I guess. I'll continue to rule it the way that I feel is right; I'll continue to not see a problem with it.
Darth Sephiroth 06-02-07, 08:12 PM	Aren't there also the feats that grant extra attacks somewhere.