Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Maxxim 05-22-07, 09:38 PM	1. How does power attack relate to attacks made when grappling an opponent? Can you power attack as normal (asuming the penalties for light weapons, etc.)? 2. How does the monk's flurry of blows relate to attacks made when grappling? Can you do a flurry when grappling the opponent, or are you limited to a single attack?
SALDAR 05-22-07, 09:58 PM	1. How does power attack relate to attacks made when grappling an opponent? Can you power attack as normal (asuming the penalties for light weapons, etc.)? You would need to use the "Attack Your Opponent" option in order to use Power Attack. In this case, since the only light weapon you can use with Power Attack is unarmed strike then you could attack your opponent using PA with unarmed strikes. You would take the -4 for making such attacks along with the minuses you take for power attack. 2. How does the monk's flurry of blows relate to attacks made when grappling? Can you do a flurry when grappling the opponent, or are you limited to a single attack? When flurrying you can only use the monk's unarmed strike or special monk weapons, none of which allow you to make grapple checks so you cannot do a flurry of grapple checks. So your only option to using flurry in a grapple is the Attack Your Opponent option using an unarmed strike or a light monk weapon (notice the singular, you cannot attack with two weapons while doing this). You would still take the -4 for attacking your opponent as well as any penalties for Flurry you may have.
GhostStepper 05-22-07, 11:21 PM	2. How does the monk's flurry of blows relate to attacks made when grappling? Can you do a flurry when grappling the opponent, or are you limited to a single attack? The FAQ says yes, you can flurry with grapple checks made to damage your opponent. The rationale is that flurry basically gives you a bunch of attacks and since you can replace attacks with grapple checks to do damage its pretty much interchageable.
Unholy_King 05-22-07, 11:50 PM	The FAQ says you may Grapple with a Flurry. I don't remember it saying you may Flurry while Grappling.
GhostStepper 05-22-07, 11:59 PM	I don't remember it saying you may Flurry while Grappling. I dont think the FAQ really needed to cover that though. You just take a -4 for making a melee attack in a grapple with a flurry just like any other melee attack during a grapple.
Unholy_King 05-23-07, 01:18 AM	Flurry requires a FRA, and grapple attacks don't work that way, since it splits attacks based on BAB. Not to mention, I can't picture much... "flurrying" going on during a grapple.
Muktar 05-23-07, 01:29 AM	Just as a note. A monk can attack with any part of their body not just their fists as what is commonly thought.
GhostStepper 05-23-07, 01:31 AM	Flurry requires a FRA, and grapple attacks don't work that way, since it splits attacks based on BAB. Are you talking about flurrying with punches or flurrying with hold damage? In either case you can do it. When using the "attack your opponent" option it just says you make attacks at -4. There is no reason why you wouldnt be able to flurry any less than someone who makes a full attack in a grapple. If your talking about flurrying to get extra "damage your opponent" grapple checks you can use flurry there too since flurry simply gives you more attacks and this option allows you to switch out attacks for grapple damage. Not to mention, I can't picture much... "flurrying" going on during a grapple. Havent seen any UFC, huh? ;)
SALDAR 05-23-07, 12:34 PM	Are you talking about flurrying with punches or flurrying with hold damage? In either case you can do it. When using the "attack your opponent" option it just says you make attacks at -4. There is no reason why you wouldnt be able to flurry any less than someone who makes a full attack in a grapple. If your talking about flurrying to get extra "damage your opponent" grapple checks you can use flurry there too since flurry simply gives you more attacks and this option allows you to switch out attacks for grapple damage. But you only make those attacks using the monk's unarmed strike or a monk weapon. As I stated above, you cannot make a grapple check with any of these weapons. The FAQ says yes, you can flurry with grapple checks made to damage your opponent. The rationale is that flurry basically gives you a bunch of attacks and since you can replace attacks with grapple checks to do damage its pretty much interchageable. No it doesn't. The FAQ entry does end with a statement that says you can grapple during a flurry, but the entry also starts by saying that you can flurry only as long as you use a weapon that flurry allows. None of the weapons that can be used during a flurry can be used to make grapple checks. This means that only those grapple options you can take while grappling and flurrying are those that do not require a grapple check and do use flurry weapons. The Attack Your Opponent option is the only one that qualifies. You do not make grapple checks and you can use a flurry weapon. The FAQ attempts to explain things but at no time does it replace, change, or override the written rules. Sometimes a statement in the FAQ is partially true, in this case it states that you can grapple during a flurry. This is true but not across the board. Flurry can be used during a grapple but not with all of the options available during a grapple.
Egres 05-23-07, 12:53 PM	In this case, since the only light weapon you can use with Power Attack is unarmed strike then you could attack your opponent using PA with unarmed strikes. Don't forget natural weapons.
GhostStepper 05-23-07, 01:12 PM	But you only make those attacks using the monk's unarmed strike or a monk weapon. As I stated above, you cannot make a grapple check with any of these weapons. The FAQ entry does end with a statement that says you can grapple during a flurry, but the entry also starts by saying that you can flurry only as long as you use a weapon that flurry allows. None of the weapons that can be used during a flurry can be used to make grapple checks. This means that only those grapple options you can take while grappling and flurrying are those that do not require a grapple check and do use flurry weapons. The Attack Your Opponent option is the only one that qualifies. You do not make grapple checks and you can use a flurry weapon. Look closely at the FAQ question and the answer once more. The question specifically asks "what about grapple checks?" and the part which answers says "she's free to disarm, sunder, trip and grapple to her heart's content". The answer is cofirming that you can make actual grapple checks with a flurry (which would include the "damage your opponent" option). Since using the "attack your opponent" option doesnt involve grapple checks, we must assume the author was refering to grapple checks that replace melee attacks. "But you dont grapple with an unarmed strike and so it doesnt qualify" you say! If this were so then there would be no reason for the author to say a monk can grapple with flurry in response to the question "what about grapple checks" since no weapon would meet the requirement. If it were true (to the author) that no monk weapons qualified for grapple checks, he would have had to put grappling in the next paragraph along with overrun and bullrush. Since you do unarmed strike damage when using the "damage your opponent" option, the author is clearly assuming that your actually using the "unarmed strike" weapon when you grapple. Ultimately, the RAW are up in the air on this matter. They dont clearly say whether or not your really using the "unarmed strike" weapon when your grappling though the text sometimes implies that you do. Literaly intepretation of the FAQ (both the question and the answer) reveals that the author obviously feels that there is some monk weapon you can use to make grapple checks though since he doesnt put it with overrun and bullrush.
Maxxim 05-23-07, 01:44 PM	The weapon issue doesn't concern me, since I'll be using unarmed strike damage anyway. The character is a goliath monk/fighter/drunken master grappler. Since, by level 6 or so, his grapple modifier would be around 20 (before magical enhancements), it seems safe to use stuff like PA and flurry even if they result in minuses to that. It seems to me that a monk can do full unarmed strike damage on a "damage your opponent" grapple check without any penalty. So, with a flurry, it would just be the flurry penalty applied. I was hoping I could use PA to take some of the BAB off my grapple check and add it to damage, but I had a feeling that was not going to be the case. But in any case, it looks like I could easily cause plenty of damage each round with flurry and grapple checks, given that many enemies will have almost no chance whatsoever of beating the opposed check when my modifier is +20 and rising. Thanks for all the info everyone, it helps very much.
Screams_of_the_Oak 05-23-07, 02:25 PM	...The character is a goliath monk/fighter/drunken master grappler. Since, by level 6 or so, his grapple modifier would be around 20 (before magical enhancements)... ....But in any case, it looks like I could easily cause plenty of damage each round with flurry and grapple checks, given that many enemies will have almost no chance whatsoever of beating the opposed check when my modifier is +20 and rising... Where in god's name are you getting these numbers? At a maximum, a medium character WITH powerfull build is going to top out at about 18 or so, and with some nice enchantments you'll hit 25 for a few rounds. If you're really looking for grapple modifiers, you should take the psionic route.
GhostStepper 05-23-07, 02:52 PM	Yeah, im getting: +6 Str 23 (which is max at 6th level without magic) +4 Improved Grapple +4 size +4 BAB = +18 to grapple A psywar build with Expansion would help and possibly a dip in Barbarian with the Complete Champ alternate feature that gives you Improved Grab. Tack on Multigrab and Improved Multigrab from Savage Species and you can literally run around the battlefield at will while holding your prey in a headlock.
Maxxim 05-23-07, 03:02 PM	Here's what I had: - Goliath/powerful build gives +4. - Strength at level 1 will be 22 after racial mods. That's +6. - Improved grapple gives +4. - Level 7 BAB (goliath 1/monk 3/fighter 2/drunken master 1) gives another +5. Not sure about the exact levels of each class yet, but that's about right. Right there is +19. I don't recall how I got to 20, maybe it was only 19 total, or maybe I had another level of something. At level 9, I'd get another 2 BAB and will have added 2 more strength, so it would be at 22. Add in +STR gear, say +4 total, and I'm at +24 grapple. Taking into consideration the 3 levels of drunken master, which let me get a temporary +6 str boost, and I'm at +27 to grapple at level 9. From there, spells and buffs should get me to +30 or more for the duration of a fight. edit: wait, I just realized, drunken master may not get +1 BAB at its first level. If not, it would be 18, and I apologize. But the rest of the numbers here are still pretty accurate.
GhostStepper 05-23-07, 03:09 PM	Yeah, monk3/fighter2/drunkenmaster1 nets you +4 BAB. I think you may be better off with levels of Barbarian instead of fighter so you can get Pounce or Improved Grab unless you really need those bonus feats for something else. This of course assumes that you have access to Complete Champ.
SALDAR 05-23-07, 07:15 PM	Look closely at the FAQ question and the answer once more. The question specifically asks "what about grapple checks?" and the part which answers says "she's free to disarm, sunder, trip and grapple to her heart's content". The answer is cofirming that you can make actual grapple checks with a flurry (which would include the "damage your opponent" option). Since using the "attack your opponent" option doesnt involve grapple checks, we must assume the author was refering to grapple checks that replace melee attacks. Making an assumption based upon an assumption is not the way to go, especially when the original assumption is incorrect. The author is assuming that you can replace any attack with a grapple check. This is an incorrect assumption since a flurry attack can only be made with a monk's unarmed strike or special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). I don't see grapple or grapple check on the list. The same thing applies to trip. The author states that you can trip to your heart's content during a flurry. Does this mean that I can trip with any of the listed flurry weapons? No. You only make trip attempts if you are attacking with a weapon that allows you to make trip attacks. Looking through the list of weapons usable during a flurry and capable of making a trip attack we end up with the kama. "But you dont grapple with an unarmed strike and so it doesnt qualify" you say! If this were so then there would be no reason for the author to say a monk can grapple with flurry in response to the question "what about grapple checks" since no weapon would meet the requirement. If it were true (to the author) that no monk weapons qualified for grapple checks, he would have had to put grappling in the next paragraph along with overrun and bullrush. Since you do unarmed strike damage when using the "damage your opponent" option, the author is clearly assuming that your actually using the "unarmed strike" weapon when you grapple. There you go with assumptions again. When you use the "damage your opponent option" you do not make an attack with your unarmed strike, you make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win the opposed check you do damage equivalent to the damage you do if you were attacking with an unarmed strike. The damage you do is the same but you are not using your unarmed strike to do the damage. The only time you can do damage with your unarmed strike while grappling is when you Attack Your Opponent. Ultimately, the RAW are up in the air on this matter. They dont clearly say whether or not your really using the "unarmed strike" weapon when your grappling though the text sometimes implies that you do. Actually the rules do specify when you use an unarmed strike while grappling. See Attack Your Opponent. Literaly intepretation of the FAQ (both the question and the answer) reveals that the author obviously feels that there is some monk weapon you can use to make grapple checks though since he doesnt put it with overrun and bullrush. He doesn't put it with Overrun and Bullrush because you can use grapple and flurry together but do to the rules for each their combined use is limited to the Attack Your Opponent option. As for weapons that you can use to make grapple checks, the mancatcher is the only one I am aware of that specifies that it can and it is in a supplement (can't recall which one).
GhostStepper 05-23-07, 10:29 PM	Making an assumption based upon an assumption is not the way to go, especially when the original assumption is incorrect. The author is assuming that you can replace any attack with a grapple check. This is an incorrect assumption since a flurry attack can only be made with a monk's unarmed strike or special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). I don't see grapple or grapple check on the list. Unless he is ruling that you actually are using an unarmed strike when using the "damage your opponent" option. Since the question specifically cited "grapple checks" and "attack your opponent" doesnt require grappe checks then its pretty clear that the author thinks that flurrying in a grapple is not limited to "attack your opponent". The author is simply ruling that you actually are using the "unarmed strike" weapon in a grapple. The same thing applies to trip. The author states that you can trip to your heart's content during a flurry. Does this mean that I can trip with any of the listed flurry weapons? No. You only make trip attempts if you are attacking with a weapon that allows you to make trip attacks. Looking through the list of weapons usable during a flurry and capable of making a trip attack we end up with the kama. So the author isnt totally crazy. He recognizes that there is a monk weapon that can be used with trip. Apparently he feels there is one you can make "grapple checks" with and my money is on "unarmed strike" for his interpretation. It may not specifically say it works this way in the grappling rules but sure does imply it and that is the interpretation the author is going with. There you go with assumptions again. When you use the "damage your opponent option" you do not make an attack with your unarmed strike, you make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win the opposed check you do damage equivalent to the damage you do if you were attacking with an unarmed strike. The damage you do is the same but you are not using your unarmed strike to do the damage. The only time you can do damage with your unarmed strike while grappling is when you Attack Your Opponent. Not according to the author (unless there is another weapon that specificlaly says you can use it for the "damage your opponen" option while grappling) because he was specifically answering a questiong about "grapple checks". Since the "attack your opponent" option doesnt involve grapple checks we can only conclude that he ment you can use flurry attacks whenever you can switch out attacks for grapple checks. Once again, it doesnt specifically say that your using the "unarmed strike" weapon to make grapple checks, the author is just ruling that it works that way. Actually the rules do specify when you use an unarmed strike while grappling. See Attack Your Opponent. I ment specifically when making "grapple checks". He doesn't put it with Overrun and Bullrush because you can use grapple and flurry together but do to the rules for each their combined use is limited to the Attack Your Opponent option. As for weapons that you can use to make grapple checks, the mancatcher is the only one I am aware of that specifies that it can and it is in a supplement (can't recall which one). Your ignoring the fact that the question was about "grapple checks". Essetially the question asks "what about grapple checks?" as far as if can you use them interchangable with a flurry. His response was "she's free to disarm, sunder, trip and grapple to her heart's content". Since you dont do melee weapon damage other than that equal to unarmed strike, it seems apparent that the author is ruling that you do infact use the equivalent of an unarmed strike for the purposes of flurry when doing unarmed strike damage while making grapple checks. The last part is the only assumption and, unless you can find a monk weapon that you can use to do damage while using a grapple check, i think its pretty safe to assume he was talking about unarmed strike.
SALDAR 05-23-07, 11:10 PM	Unless he is ruling that you actually are using an unarmed strike when using the "damage your opponent" option. And nowhere in the FAQ entry does the author say you are using unarmed strike for grapple checks. Since the question specifically cited "grapple checks" and "attack your opponent" doesnt require grappe checks then its pretty clear that the author thinks that flurrying in a grapple is not limited to "attack your opponent". The author is simply ruling that you actually are using the "unarmed strike" weapon in a grapple. What the author thinks is an assumption on your part. If your assumption is correct and that is what the author is thinking then what the author is thinking does not follow the written rules and therefore is incorrect. So the author isnt totally crazy. He recognizes that there is a monk weapon that can be used with trip. Apparently he feels there is one you can make "grapple checks" with and my money is on "unarmed strike" for his interpretation. It may not specifically say it works this way in the grappling rules but sure does imply it and that is the interpretation the author is going with. And there is a monk weapon that can be used with grapple, but only if you use the Attack Your Opponent option while grappling. So the author is correct on both counts without making any assumptions. There is a weapon to trip with during a flurry and there is a weapon to use while grappling. There are weapons that specify that they can be used to make trip attempts but there are no weapons that specify that they can be used to make grapple checks. Not according to the author (unless there is another weapon that specificlaly says you can use it for the "damage your opponen" option while grappling) because he was specifically answering a questiong about "grapple checks". Since the "attack your opponent" option doesnt involve grapple checks we can only conclude that he ment you can use flurry attacks whenever you can switch out attacks for grapple checks. In the same manner that you can switch out attacks for trip attempts? The author doesn't specify what weapons you can use for trip either, so by your logic I can trip with any monk weapon during a flurry. Once again, it doesnt specifically say that your using the "unarmed strike" weapon to make grapple checks, the author is just ruling that it works that way. There is nothing in this entry to even suggest this. Your ignoring the fact that the question was about "grapple checks". And the author ignored the rules concerning using weapons to make said grapple checks. There are none because you can't. The last part is the only assumption and, unless you can find a monk weapon that you can use to do damage while using a grapple check, i think its pretty safe to assume he was talking about unarmed strike. Until you find a monk weapon that can be used to make a grapple check you are just making an assumption. Assumptions are not supported by the rules.
GhostStepper 05-23-07, 11:56 PM	Im going to try to answer multiple points at once so the quotes dont multiply even further. Its already a crazy quote fest. lol And nowhere in the FAQ entry does the author say you are using unarmed strike for grapple checks. What the author thinks is an assumption on your part. If your assumption is correct and that is what the author is thinking then what the author is thinking does not follow the written rules and therefore is incorrect. The author doesnt specifically say you are using unarmed strike for grapple checks, but he does say that you can grapple as part of a flurry in response to a question specifically about "grapple checks". Its pretty clear he thinks there is some weapon that you can flurry with and make grapple checks with. You cant say that this assumtion does not follow the rules since the rules dont technically say that the "damage your opponent" does not use the "unarmed strike" weapon. The fact that it says "while grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike" implies that you may in fact be using the "unarmed strike" weapon when using the "damage your opponent option". You may not agree with this, but all i was ever trying to say was that the FAQ says you can, and if you read it critically, it says you can flurry with "grapple checks". Since "unarmed strike" is the only weapon mentioned in the "damage your opponent" option its the most logical choice. In the same manner that you can switch out attacks for trip attempts? The author doesn't specify what weapons you can use for trip either, so by your logic I can trip with any monk weapon during a flurry. That would make sense if the Trip description didnt actually say that there are specific weapons you can use to trip. Grapple has no such equivalent except for the fact the "unarmed strike" is specifically mentioned in the "damage your opponent" section. The author says that you can grapple using a flurry in response to a query about making "grapple checks", the grappling section says you can do damage equivalent to an unarmed strike with a grapple check. Its pretty clear the author must be talking about unarmed strikes. And like i said, it doesnt directly say your using the "unarmed strike" weapon during "damage your opponent" but its the only logical thing the author could be refering to and thats all im trying to prove. And the author ignored the rules concerning using weapons to make said grapple checks. There are none because you can't. Until you find a monk weapon that can be used to make a grapple check you are just making an assumption. Assumptions are not supported by the rules. May i point out that despite the fact that the "damage your opponent" option deals damage based on your unarmed strike, you too are assuming that this does not mean that your using an unarmed strike (or atleast the equilalent of an unarmed strike for the purposes of making a flurry). The rules dont say either way.
SALDAR 05-24-07, 11:53 PM	The author doesnt specifically say you are using unarmed strike for grapple checks, but he does say that you can grapple as part of a flurry in response to a question specifically about "grapple checks". Its pretty clear he thinks there is some weapon that you can flurry with and make grapple checks with. The author may think there is such a weapon but there is nothing within the rules to support this. You cant say that this assumtion does not follow the rules since the rules dont technically say that the "damage your opponent" does not use the "unarmed strike" weapon. Nor does it say you do use unarmed strike. What it does say is that you damage your opponent by winning an opposed grapple check. ... all i was ever trying to say was that the FAQ says you can, and if you read it critically, it says you can flurry with "grapple checks". All I'm saying is that the rules do not support this. Read the FAQ as critically as you want, but also read the rules just as critically. If they contradict each other then follow the rules. That would make sense if the Trip description didnt actually say that there are specific weapons you can use to trip. Grapple has no such equivalent except for the fact the "unarmed strike" is specifically mentioned in the "damage your opponent" section. But it does. There are no monk weapons with which you can make grapple checks but grapple allows you to use unarmed strike when using the Attack Your Opponent option. You can use unarmed strike during a flurry and during a grapple. And like i said, it doesnt directly say your using the "unarmed strike" weapon during "damage your opponent" but its the only logical thing the author could be refering to and thats all im trying to prove. Then you have failed because you have no rules to base your proof on, only assumptions. May i point out that despite the fact that the "damage your opponent" option deals damage based on your unarmed strike, you too are assuming that this does not mean that your using an unarmed strike (or atleast the equilalent of an unarmed strike for the purposes of making a flurry). The rules dont say either way. True. The rules do not say whether or not you are using unarmed strike to make a grapple check to damage your opponent. What the rules do say is that during a flurry you can use unarmed strike and if you damage your opponent during a grapple you do damage equivalent to your unarmed strike. What the rules do not say is that you can make grapple checks with unarmed strike. If you could use unarmed strike to make grapple checks then the rules would tell you that you could. The rules could tell you this in three places that are directly related to this; The Monk's Unarmed Strike class feature description, the Unarmed Strike weapon description, or in the Damage Your Opponent section of Grapple. Three places but not a word.