2 Sorcerer-focused feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

2 Sorcerer-focused feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
prophet224
03-17-07, 12:50 AM Though mages can use them too! :)
Thoughts?

Mass Spell
Your uncanny mastery of magic allows you to extend some spells to affect more creatures than normal.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to cast at least one spell for which there is also a mass version, any other metamagic feat.
Benefit: When you cast a spell for which there is also a mass version (mage armor, hold person, etc.), you may choose to instead cast the mass version, even if it is not currently on your list of spells known or in your spellbook. The mass version must, however be on your class spell list. The mass spell uses up a spell slot of the same level that the mass version of the spell would normally take, and all effects dependant upon spell level are determined based on the mass spell version. Thus, a sorcerer who knows hold person and has this feat may expend a 7th level spell slot to cast mass hold person, which is then treated exactly as the normal mass spell.
Normal: You may only cast a mass version of a spell if it is known to you or in your spellbook.

Leveled Spell
Your uncanny mastery of magic allows you to use more powerful versions of some spells that you already know.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to cast at least one spell for which there are multiple levels.
Benefit: When you cast a spell for which there are multiple levels to the same spell (summon monster), you may choose to instead cast a stronger (or weaker) version of the spell that you know, even if it is not currently on your list of spells known or in your spellbook. The different level spell must, however, be on your class spell list. The spell must be within one level (either up or down) of the version that you know. The spell uses up a spell slot of the level of spell you are casting, and all effects dependant upon level are determined based on the spell slot. Thus, a wizard who has summon monster III on his spell list may choose to instead prepare, for example, summon monster II or summon monster IV, if he is of the appropriate level to cast that level spell.
Normal: You may only cast spells specifically known to you or in your spellbook.

Greater/Lesser Spell
Your uncanny mastery of magic allows you to modify the effects of certain spells to increase or decrease their power.
Prerequisite: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to cast at least one spell that is part of a Lesser/Normal/Greater spell chain, any other metamagic feat.
Benefit: When you cast a spell that is part of a Lesser/Normal/Greater spell chain(mage armor, arcane sight, etc.), you may choose to instead cast a more or less powerful version, even if it is not currently on your list of spells known or in your spellbook. The different level spell must, however, be on your class spell list. The spell uses up a spell slot of the same level that the version of the spell would normally take, and all effects dependant upon spell level are determined based on the spell version actually cast. Thus, a sorcerer who knows dispel magic and has this feat may expend a 6th level spell slot to cast greater dispel magic, which is then treated exactly as the 6th level spell. The sorcerer would not, however, be able to use this feat to cast a lesser version of confusion, because lesser confusion is a Bard-only spell.
Normal: You may only cast spells specifically known to you or in your spellbook.
Moccanime
03-17-07, 07:49 AM The first one seam okay to me but the second one kinda rub me the wrong way. At the cost of one feat you give a sorcerer 8 new spells and that if he only have one spell with multiple level versions.
Change it to allow casting of a spell one level different than the one they know. So a Sorcerer who knows summon monster V, with this feat he can also cast summon IV and VI.
Moccanime
03-17-07, 07:54 AM One more thing you could also make a feat that allowed a caster to cast a swift version of a spell if they know the base spell.
prophet224
03-17-07, 11:44 AM Ok... that's true. I see what you mean. I guess I was thinking because I could only think of two spell chains that were like that (Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally) that it was more limited utility. Are there any other spell chains that the feat would apply to?

Swift: That's true... like the Expeditious Retreat and the swift version. I do feel like that would make sense. What about the spells with 'Greater' and 'Lesser' versions?

A sorcerer who took all of these feats AND had spells on their known list that could take advantage of them would definately get a better repertoire, but would use a bunch of feats to get it.
Moccanime
03-17-07, 11:50 AM Summon Undead is another spell chain available to sorcerer, so using the feat as writen a socerer taking the feat would get acess to 16 extra spells know at the cost of one feat.

A lesser-greater modification feat would make sense as well, but like a said with summon monster, then it should only allow to change the spell to one within one category.
IE if you know the normal version you can cast lesser and greater as well, but if you only know lesser then you can only upgrade it to the normal version.
Otherwise the feat could be higly abused.

Edit: a wizard could also gain a huge benefit from the feat. She get the higher level spell without wasting spellbook pages. Normally a wizard need to waste 45 pages if she want acces to all 9 levels of summon monster, with the feat she only has to spend a single page to have acces to every level of summon monster.

Edit2: made a mistake above, it is 45 pages, not 23.
prophet224
03-17-07, 12:31 PM True... ok, I've edited it and added the Greater/Lesser feat. I was thinking at first that it could be part of 'Leveled Spell', but realized that the Greater/Lesser spells often are often far apart in spell levels. I'm thinking that 'Leveled Spell' needs it's reqs lowered a bit, though. Maybe not Spellcraft 12?
Ventilatory_Threshold
03-17-07, 02:14 PM I like the feats. They give the Sorcerer some versatility. Sorcerers are like the Fighters of arcane spellcasting and often need powerful feats to compensate.
Moccanime
03-17-07, 03:06 PM I like how they turned out, they give the sorcerer some badly needed spell known.
Limited spell known list and delayed spell progresion is really a bad trade off for spountanusly casting. These feat offset this somewhat.
prophet224
03-17-07, 03:26 PM Thanks folks, I appreciate the kind words! And thanks for the input, too! :)
tarkin
03-17-07, 03:27 PM All of these are nice ideas, but poor wording.

You talk about list of spells known. That may be mistaken for on your spell list. They are different things. Do NOT say 'list of spells known', that is confusing.

Eliminate the words "list of spells known".

Simply say they do not need to know the spell, or have it in their spell book, but must have the spell on their spell list.

None of these are fair if you let them cast spells that are not on their spell list, but otherwise these feats are good ideas.
prophet224
03-17-07, 03:45 PM Hmm... I see where you are coming from, but at the same time, we have basically three different kinds of wording in general use.

1.) Spellbook
2.) Spells Known
3.) Spell list

These are used in all of the books in exactly those terms to differentiate things.
'Spellbook' = required for wizards, this is where spells that a wizard knows (can prepare and cast) are kept.

'Spells Known' = spells that a sorcerer knows how to cast, PHB table 3-17 is the Sorcerer Spells Known table. May also be used to refer to spells that a wizard has in their spellbook.

'Spell List' = List of spells from which a spellcasting class may learn spells. Referred to in the first sentence of PHB Ch. 11, page 181. "This chapter begins with the spell lists..."

Given this, I think that it should be clear from the terminology that is in use in the games, as above. However, I do always like to be explicit, so I will add "but must have the spell on their spell list" in there somewhere.

Thank you!!!
sigma999
03-21-07, 08:46 PM I like em all, but the second 2 could be split into more specific feats. For instance, a Greater Spell and a Lesser Spell, one for those that strive to overpower their own capabilities and the other for those with practised restraint.
prophet224
03-22-07, 02:14 PM Do you think there enough spells out there like that to merit 2 feats? Especially considering the sorcerer's limited spell selection. Perhaps 2 wizard feats and 1 sorcerer only feat? It's just that the value of the feat is determined by how many applicable spells are known. For the sorcerer, that's not likely to be many. Thoughts?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
prophet224 03-17-07, 12:50 AM	Though mages can use them too! :) Thoughts? Mass Spell Your uncanny mastery of magic allows you to extend some spells to affect more creatures than normal. Prerequisite: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to cast at least one spell for which there is also a mass version, any other metamagic feat. Benefit: When you cast a spell for which there is also a mass version (mage armor, hold person, etc.), you may choose to instead cast the mass version, even if it is not currently on your list of spells known or in your spellbook. The mass version must, however be on your class spell list. The mass spell uses up a spell slot of the same level that the mass version of the spell would normally take, and all effects dependant upon spell level are determined based on the mass spell version. Thus, a sorcerer who knows hold person and has this feat may expend a 7th level spell slot to cast mass hold person, which is then treated exactly as the normal mass spell. Normal: You may only cast a mass version of a spell if it is known to you or in your spellbook. Leveled Spell Your uncanny mastery of magic allows you to use more powerful versions of some spells that you already know. Prerequisite: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to cast at least one spell for which there are multiple levels. Benefit: When you cast a spell for which there are multiple levels to the same spell (summon monster), you may choose to instead cast a stronger (or weaker) version of the spell that you know, even if it is not currently on your list of spells known or in your spellbook. The different level spell must, however, be on your class spell list. The spell must be within one level (either up or down) of the version that you know. The spell uses up a spell slot of the level of spell you are casting, and all effects dependant upon level are determined based on the spell slot. Thus, a wizard who has summon monster III on his spell list may choose to instead prepare, for example, summon monster II or summon monster IV, if he is of the appropriate level to cast that level spell. Normal: You may only cast spells specifically known to you or in your spellbook. Greater/Lesser Spell Your uncanny mastery of magic allows you to modify the effects of certain spells to increase or decrease their power. Prerequisite: Spellcraft 12 ranks, ability to cast at least one spell that is part of a Lesser/Normal/Greater spell chain, any other metamagic feat. Benefit: When you cast a spell that is part of a Lesser/Normal/Greater spell chain(mage armor, arcane sight, etc.), you may choose to instead cast a more or less powerful version, even if it is not currently on your list of spells known or in your spellbook. The different level spell must, however, be on your class spell list. The spell uses up a spell slot of the same level that the version of the spell would normally take, and all effects dependant upon spell level are determined based on the spell version actually cast. Thus, a sorcerer who knows dispel magic and has this feat may expend a 6th level spell slot to cast greater dispel magic, which is then treated exactly as the 6th level spell. The sorcerer would not, however, be able to use this feat to cast a lesser version of confusion, because lesser confusion is a Bard-only spell. Normal: You may only cast spells specifically known to you or in your spellbook.
Moccanime 03-17-07, 07:49 AM	The first one seam okay to me but the second one kinda rub me the wrong way. At the cost of one feat you give a sorcerer 8 new spells and that if he only have one spell with multiple level versions. Change it to allow casting of a spell one level different than the one they know. So a Sorcerer who knows summon monster V, with this feat he can also cast summon IV and VI.
Moccanime 03-17-07, 07:54 AM	One more thing you could also make a feat that allowed a caster to cast a swift version of a spell if they know the base spell.
prophet224 03-17-07, 11:44 AM	Ok... that's true. I see what you mean. I guess I was thinking because I could only think of two spell chains that were like that (Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally) that it was more limited utility. Are there any other spell chains that the feat would apply to? Swift: That's true... like the Expeditious Retreat and the swift version. I do feel like that would make sense. What about the spells with 'Greater' and 'Lesser' versions? A sorcerer who took all of these feats AND had spells on their known list that could take advantage of them would definately get a better repertoire, but would use a bunch of feats to get it.
Moccanime 03-17-07, 11:50 AM	Summon Undead is another spell chain available to sorcerer, so using the feat as writen a socerer taking the feat would get acess to 16 extra spells know at the cost of one feat. A lesser-greater modification feat would make sense as well, but like a said with summon monster, then it should only allow to change the spell to one within one category. IE if you know the normal version you can cast lesser and greater as well, but if you only know lesser then you can only upgrade it to the normal version. Otherwise the feat could be higly abused. Edit: a wizard could also gain a huge benefit from the feat. She get the higher level spell without wasting spellbook pages. Normally a wizard need to waste 45 pages if she want acces to all 9 levels of summon monster, with the feat she only has to spend a single page to have acces to every level of summon monster. Edit2: made a mistake above, it is 45 pages, not 23.
prophet224 03-17-07, 12:31 PM	True... ok, I've edited it and added the Greater/Lesser feat. I was thinking at first that it could be part of 'Leveled Spell', but realized that the Greater/Lesser spells often are often far apart in spell levels. I'm thinking that 'Leveled Spell' needs it's reqs lowered a bit, though. Maybe not Spellcraft 12?
Ventilatory_Threshold 03-17-07, 02:14 PM	I like the feats. They give the Sorcerer some versatility. Sorcerers are like the Fighters of arcane spellcasting and often need powerful feats to compensate.
Moccanime 03-17-07, 03:06 PM	I like how they turned out, they give the sorcerer some badly needed spell known. Limited spell known list and delayed spell progresion is really a bad trade off for spountanusly casting. These feat offset this somewhat.
prophet224 03-17-07, 03:26 PM	Thanks folks, I appreciate the kind words! And thanks for the input, too! :)
tarkin 03-17-07, 03:27 PM	All of these are nice ideas, but poor wording. You talk about list of spells known. That may be mistaken for on your spell list. They are different things. Do NOT say 'list of spells known', that is confusing. Eliminate the words "list of spells known". Simply say they do not need to know the spell, or have it in their spell book, but must have the spell on their spell list. None of these are fair if you let them cast spells that are not on their spell list, but otherwise these feats are good ideas.
prophet224 03-17-07, 03:45 PM	Hmm... I see where you are coming from, but at the same time, we have basically three different kinds of wording in general use. 1.) Spellbook 2.) Spells Known 3.) Spell list These are used in all of the books in exactly those terms to differentiate things. 'Spellbook' = required for wizards, this is where spells that a wizard knows (can prepare and cast) are kept. 'Spells Known' = spells that a sorcerer knows how to cast, PHB table 3-17 is the Sorcerer Spells Known table. May also be used to refer to spells that a wizard has in their spellbook. 'Spell List' = List of spells from which a spellcasting class may learn spells. Referred to in the first sentence of PHB Ch. 11, page 181. "This chapter begins with the spell lists..." Given this, I think that it should be clear from the terminology that is in use in the games, as above. However, I do always like to be explicit, so I will add "but must have the spell on their spell list" in there somewhere. Thank you!!!
sigma999 03-21-07, 08:46 PM	I like em all, but the second 2 could be split into more specific feats. For instance, a Greater Spell and a Lesser Spell, one for those that strive to overpower their own capabilities and the other for those with practised restraint.
prophet224 03-22-07, 02:14 PM	Do you think there enough spells out there like that to merit 2 feats? Especially considering the sorcerer's limited spell selection. Perhaps 2 wizard feats and 1 sorcerer only feat? It's just that the value of the feat is determined by how many applicable spells are known. For the sorcerer, that's not likely to be many. Thoughts?