Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kitsuna360 12-23-07, 10:25 PM	Hi, I'm just posting here because I'm a bit unsure of how Two Weapon Fighting, and Improved Two Weapon fighting apply in relation to the full attack action. Throw in a bit of sneak attack uncertainty and you've got yourself a big headache. If anyone can help clear up my understanding of these feats and abilities, I'd really appreciate it. Assume a spellthief is lvl 20, but has 10 STR, so melee bonuses due to abilities and everything else is irrelevant for the sake of argument. Therefore; BAB: +15/+10/+5 NOT using a full attack action, but using the offhand weapon to get in a second strike (Two Weapon Fighting) the attack modifier should look like this (assume 2 light weapons): +13 (mainhand) and +13 (offhand) or +13/+13 So am I correct in believing that Two Weapon fighting allows a second strike, at the highest possible BAB, minus 2 for each attack due to the difficulty? By extension; what about the 3rd strike from the Improved Two Weapon Fighting Feat? For example, say I'm using a regular attack (not full attack) and want to make 2 extra attacks (one for TWF, and one for Imp TWF), would the attack modifier look like this (assume two light weapons)? +13 (mainhand) and +13 (first offhand) +10 (second offhand) or +13/+13/+10 Is this right? Or does the TWF penalty with light weapons (-2) stack with the -5 penalty on the 3rd attack, making it +13/+13/+8 Now it gets interesting. How about when using the full attack action, TWF, and improved TWF? Does it work like this (assume 2 light weapons)? +13 (mainhand) +13 (first offhand) +10 (second offhand) +10 (second mainhand attack) +5 (3rd mainhand attack) or +13/+13/+10/+10/+5 or is that just wishful thinking on my part? I've also got some questions about sneak attack. Am I only able to make 1 sneak attack per round, or is it per attack action? For example is it: +15(+sneak attack dmg)/+10/+5 or is it: +15(+sneak attack dmg)/+10(+sneak attack dmg)/+5(+sneak attack dmg) assuming all attacks hit, how does it work? Assuming the second example is correct, in theory, would it be possible to combine sneak attack with TWF and Imp TWF to do something like this? +13 (mainhand + sneak attack)/+13 (offhand + sneak attack)/+10 (second offhand + sneak attack)/+10 (second mainhand + sneak attack)/+5 (3rd mainhand + sneak attack) if all of the above is true, when using the Spellthief's steal spell ability, every time a sneak attack is successful, I could lose +1d6 to nick a spell, so long as I don't have more than 20 spell levels stored (for a 20th level spellthief). Is that about right? As a side note. As a spellthief's sneak attack bonus is +5d6 at 20th level, would it be correct to say that when using the steal spell ability on a successful sneak attack, would it be right to say that i could lose all 5 sneak attack damage dice and steal 5 spells? Anybody able to either confirm or correct my understanding of these rules? All help is appreciated. :)
Kouk 12-24-07, 01:18 AM	You can only gain extra attacks from Two Weapon Fighting with a Full Attack Action -- if you only use a Standard Action to attack, you are only going to get a single attack at your highest attack bonus. If you do a Full Attack, then you can get all the extra TWF attacks depending on what feats you have (1 off-hand with no feats or TWF, two off-hand with Improved TWF and 3 off-hand with Greater TWF). Full Attack If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough, because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon or for some special reason you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones. You get Sneak Attack damage any time it applies - meaning if you are Flanking an enemy and perform a Full Attack on them, each hit you land will do Sneak Attack damage. However, it is sometimes debated whether all your attacks get Sneak Attack damage if you attack while under the effects of the Invisibility spell, because after the first attack you should no longer be Invisible and your consecutive attacks may not benefit unless other conditions (such as the opponent is Flat Footed) apply. I feel that once your first attack lands, you are no longer Invisible so your other attacks may not count for Sneak Attack. I will look up about the Spellthief... EDIT: I see nothing in the text of the Spellthief class (Complete Adventurer) nor in the Complete Adventurer Errata, the 3.5 FAQ or Sage Advice articles that says a Spellthief can't steal multiple times in a single round. That doesn't mean they can't, just that I don't see that. If I was the DM for a Spellthief, I would probably limit it to one "Steal" ability per successful Sneak Attack, meaning with your first attack you might steal a 2nd level spell, your second attack might steal a first level spell, your third attack might steal energy resistance, etc.
Kitsuna360 12-24-07, 02:10 AM	Ah that makes sense. I thought I'd read that bit about the full attack option fairly thoroughly. Thanks for correcting me. Is the attack modifier math correct at least? with 2 light weapons, no modifiers due to STR or anything else, and with TWF and Imp TWF a full attack looks like this? +13 (first main atk)/+13 (first offhand atk)/+10 (second offhand atk)/+10 (second main atk)/+5 (third main atk) or: +13/+13/+10/+10/+5 ? Again, thanks for the input. :)
CryoSilver 12-24-07, 02:23 AM	All attacks take TWF penalties. You'd get: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3
Kouk 12-24-07, 02:31 AM	All attacks take TWF penalties. You'd get: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3 This is correct. Also, Kitsuna, you don't have to do Main/Off/Off/Main/Main, you could do Main/Off/Main/Off/Main. As long as the attacks are from highest to lowest, you can switch around which "hand" you use first if they have the same exact bonus.
Kitsuna360 12-24-07, 02:34 AM	Ah fair enough. So the -5 penalty for the second offhand attack stacks with the -2 penalty for using TWF in the first place? I would have thought the -5 penalty took into account the fact that you were already fighting with two weapons. Thanks for the info! :)
Kitsuna360 12-24-07, 02:35 AM	This is correct. Also, Kitsuna, you don't have to do Main/Off/Off/Main/Main, you could do Main/Off/Main/Off/Main. As long as the attacks are from highest to lowest, you can switch around which "hand" you use first if they have the same exact bonus. I figured as much, I was just trying to make it easier to explain what I was asking by distributing it that way. :)
risner 12-25-07, 08:13 PM	spellthief is lvl 20, but has 10 STR BAB: +15/+10/+5 1) NOT using a full attack action +13 (mainhand) and +13 (offhand) or +13/+13 2) Is this right? Or does the TWF penalty with light weapons (-2) stack with the -5 penalty on the 3rd attack, making it 3) I've also got some questions about sneak attack. Am I only able to make 1 sneak attack per round, or is it per attack action? For example is it: 1) No, you can not make use of TWF while not using Full Attack option. 2) No (not right), Yes (-2 and -5 stack for -7) 3) Yes, as long as you still qualify for sneak attack dice. Ah fair enough. So the -5 penalty for the second offhand attack stacks with the -2 penalty for using TWF in the first place? I would have thought the -5 penalty took into account the fact that you were already fighting with two weapons. Thanks for the info! :) No, they are separate penalties for separate benefits. The -2 is for the right to attack with off hand weapons. The -5 is to track your BAB as you go down the line (to stay in step with BAB reduction from levels.)