5ft before a reflex [Archive] - Wizards Community

5ft before a reflex [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
WinterPsionic
04-01-07, 11:48 AM Any ideas? May have been 3rd party but I highly doubt it.

To clarify it allowed a 5ft step before considering the result of the reflex throw allowing you to escape the effect area entirely.
CantripN
04-01-07, 12:00 PM Closest I know of is Cunning Evasion, which lets you move 5' and Hide as an Immediate action when you successfully make an Evasion.
revaar
04-01-07, 12:05 PM you're thinking of dive for cover, it's in Complete Adventurer.
CantripN
04-01-07, 04:48 PM you're thinking of dive for cover, it's in Complete Adventurer.

Doesn't Dive for Cover just allow you to retry a failed Reflex Save and fall prone while it?
ClementWillowbreaker
04-01-07, 04:51 PM Doesn't Dive for Cover just allow you to retry a failed Reflex Save and fall prone while it?
Yes. The OP is probably looking for something that lets him sidestep the area of effect, which is as valid as readying an action to sidestep an arrow after it as been fired but before it hits you.
Morwen
04-01-07, 04:57 PM The Factotum class (Dungeonscape) has an ability called Cunning Dodge that allows you to do that.
Mystyc
04-01-07, 05:05 PM Yes. The OP is probably looking for something that lets him sidestep the area of effect, which is as valid as readying an action to sidestep an arrow after it as been fired but before it hits you.
You can ready up to a standard action, which includes a move action, and readied actions interrupt the action that triggered them. You can certainly ready an action to dive behind some cover in response to an arrow, although if it makes it impossible to shoot at you at all (total cover, instead of just a +4 AC from soft cover), then the interrupted party can change his mind.

For the OP, that ability actually sounds familiar, but now I can't place it either. It's not Cunning Evasion, but something else. I'll poke around.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-01-07, 05:17 PM then the interrupted party can change his mind.
Most people fishing for this sort of ability like to argue that he can't choose a new target because they like to ignore how readied actions work (the way you described them is correct).
CaoSlayer
04-01-07, 05:18 PM I did a variant evasion for fixing the inherent troubles of evasion such as getting unscratched ever if a grenade explodes in your feet...

The variant is that a character with evasion who sucess in the save is able to move as an inmediate action outside the area of effect with the perk that if he moves more than 5ft he ends the action prone and if after moving still remains in the area suffers the whole damage.

This variant was made for the most logical way to see an evation; that is the rogue running away and jumping before the explosion catchs him.
The 5ft step could be something like that orc general from the third lord of the ring movie.

If you keep that house rule, make it better to use only after a successful reflex since otherwise the character had not enough reflexes to react.
ClementWillowbreaker
04-01-07, 06:05 PM While Evasion does raise suspension of disbelief issues (but for some reason, magic fireballs and demons don't), making it an immediate-action-move away does have problems. Swift/immediate actions aren't just for casters anymore- lots of martial abilities are using them, so that would unfairly gimp the rogue. Also, you run into difficulties when the rogue has either expended all his movement that round or took a 5ft step, which forbids other movement. That, along with the restriction of also having to reach cover, makes Evasion an incredibly restricted ability, so every class that grants it needs to be improved.

It would be wonderful if Evasion required movement, but the way it has been incorporated into 3.5 along with movement rules makes it nearly impossible to solve in a clean way. It is easier to just pretend.
CaoSlayer
04-02-07, 04:12 AM While Evasion does raise suspension of disbelief issues (but for some reason, magic fireballs and demons don't), making it an immediate-action-move away does have problems. Swift/immediate actions aren't just for casters anymore- lots of martial abilities are using them, so that would unfairly gimp the rogue. Also, you run into difficulties when the rogue has either expended all his movement that round or took a 5ft step, which forbids other movement. That, along with the restriction of also having to reach cover, makes Evasion an incredibly restricted ability, so every class that grants it needs to be improved.

It would be wonderful if Evasion required movement, but the way it has been incorporated into 3.5 along with movement rules makes it nearly impossible to solve in a clean way. It is easier to just pretend.

I did the beta version with just an inmediate action and not prone at the end because there was people willing to fireball his own rogue so he could move twice that round or move and then full attack an enemy.
Krusk
04-02-07, 09:28 AM There is an item, boots of sidestep that do exactly this. From either complete scoundrel or mage. possibly dungeonscape.
WinterPsionic
04-02-07, 02:02 PM I can't recall but I believe there was a penalty associated with the action so it doesn't simply allow a 5ft step. I still haven't found it so I may be thinking of an item effect as I did rather recently finish "reading" MIC though I'm almost positive I saw it in the context of a feat.
Dheran
04-02-07, 03:40 PM Boots of Sidestep (MIC, page 78) don't fit the bill, because the 5' step they allow is a swift (not immediate) action. You can only use them on your turn, not in conjunction with a Reflex save.
Dheran
04-02-07, 03:55 PM I did a variant evasion for fixing the inherent troubles of evasion such as getting unscratched ever if a grenade explodes in your feet... D&D doesn't have grenades, CaoSlayer. Evasion only works if you could normally make a Reflex save for half damage. Can you imagine being fast enough to dodge supersonic shrapnel? I can't. So a grenade wouldn't have a "Saving Throw: Reflex half" entry and Evasion wouldn't apply. But Fireballs are magical fire, and they operate at a much slower pace, and with much more limited effect, than grenades. (A real-world incendiary effect would cause most anything flammable to ignite. But a Fireball is magical, and is both slower and less powerful than a real incendiary weapon. It generally won't even singe the dozen scrolls tucked into a Rogue's belt.) If you can dodge half the blast effect without any special ability, it makes sense that someone with special talents could also dodge the other half.

You're screwing up the game by trying to "fix" things to match an incorrect mental image.
CaoSlayer
04-02-07, 06:00 PM D&D doesn't have grenades, CaoSlayer.

Sure?

Fire Seeds
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire]
Level: Drd 6, Fire 6, Sun 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: Up to four touched acorns or up to eight touched holly berries
Duration: 10 min./level or until used
Saving Throw: None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: No

Depending on the version of fire seeds you choose, you turn acorns into splash weapons that you or another character can throw, or you turn holly berries into bombs that you can detonate on command.

Acorn Grenades

As many as four acorns turn into special splash weapons that can be hurled as far as 100 feet. A ranged touch attack roll is required to strike the intended target. Together, the acorns are capable of dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6), divided up among the acorns as you wish.

Each acorn explodes upon striking any hard surface. In addition to its regular fire damage, it deals 1 point of splash damage per die, and it ignites any combustible materials within 10 feet. A creature within this area that makes a successful Reflex saving throw takes only half damage; a creature struck directly is not allowed a saving throw.

Yes, there are not world war 2 fragmentation grenades but are spells that emulate grenades such a fireball. You must acept that the fireball definition of an exploding little bead seems like a grenade and actual evasion definition is hard to imposible to imagine.
Dheran
04-02-07, 07:02 PM You must acept that the fireball definition of an exploding little bead seems like a grenade and actual evasion definition is hard to imposible to imagine. And if someone is hit directly, no save is permitted; they take up to 20d6 damage. Despite the (misleading) name, these are splash weapons, not explosives. I can see someone evading a splash of Napalm.
CaoSlayer
04-03-07, 03:41 AM You are playing the devil avocate a little, isnt?

Then tell me that you see the actual evasion reallist and easy to see how a rogue have just evaded stuff like a dragon breath inside a 5x5x5 box.
Dheran
04-03-07, 10:37 AM easy to see how a rogue have just evaded stuff like a dragon breath inside a 5x5x5 box. Easy? No, quite remarkable -- but not impossible. A dragon doesn't have a constant pressure air supply or an atomizer nozzle to ensure even dispersal of their breath weapon; instead they're belching up digestive juices (or whatever) and spitting them out. As a result of this inconsistent biological process there are "voids" in the spray -- parts that are mainly just bad breath rather than toxic material. A successful Reflex save means that you maneuver your (approximately) 2' wide, 1' thick body so that it's moving to avoid a lot of the harmful spray and seek out the voids. A successful Evasion means that you do an excellent job of hopping, crouching, and jinking -- and you hold your breath at the right time, too -- and end up moving through the voids in the spray for the full 3 seconds until it runs out. As a result you only have a foul odor in your nose and maybe some singed eyebrows -- cosmetic damage only, without losing any actual hit points.
WinterPsionic
04-03-07, 12:14 PM ...I don't mean to sound rude but could you please leave the arguement in Private messages? As lvely as the arguement is it should either have it's own thread or be kept private. Thank you! :D
CaoSlayer
04-03-07, 04:09 PM The argument is kinda related to the topic since your sidestep is a kind of evasion (move out from an area spell to avoid any damage).

Anyway I already said that should be allowed at least after doing the save since seems a type of reflexive reaction.
Sigma34561
04-03-07, 04:34 PM magic item in dungeonscape lets you make a 5ft step before a reflex save, and if your outside the area you need to make a reflex save in, you dont have to make the save. its pretty cheap too, like 4k. It only works 1/round and maybe up to 3/day. boot slot.
Dheran
04-03-07, 05:36 PM magic item in dungeonscape lets you make a 5ft step before a reflex save...
boot slot. Can you provide the name of the item, please, Sigma?

(WinterPsionic: Message received; I'll stay on topic.)
Krusk
04-03-07, 07:25 PM its that item i brought up. boots of sidestep.

apparently they were in MiC as well, but their power was way cut down. i dont own that book so i cant be sure.
Mystyc
04-04-07, 12:21 AM its that item i brought up. boots of sidestep.

apparently they were in MiC as well, but their power was way cut down. i dont own that book so i cant be sure.
I think they're two distinct items that happen to have the same name. (This has happened before for spells, I know.) The two books came out only a month apart, so an item from Dungeonscape wouldn't have had time to be recycled to the MIC.
Dheran
04-04-07, 03:39 AM I think they're two distinct items that happen to have the same name. (This has happened before for spells, I know.) The two books came out only a month apart, so an item from Dungeonscape wouldn't have had time to be recycled to the MIC. Unfortunately, the standard WotC rule is that any newer material with the same name replaces the old stuff. (Sometimes this results in a big power drop, as for example when the Song and Silence version of the Expert Tactician feat was replaced by the one in Complete Adventurer. Same name, but otherwise no relation.) Any DM who abides by that rule will disallow the Dungeonscape boots, if the same name was used in the MIC.
liquidhypnotic
04-26-07, 02:32 AM Even if the players are willing to fireball a rogue to allow him extra movement, that simply shouldn't ever come up because the DM has final say on the matter, period, and if he or she allows it, then the problem is with him or her, not the feat.

I do, however, wish that WOTC would include a "Hey.....don't be a complete and total idiot. And you KNOW when you're being a complete and total idiot." rule to the game.

Just because something *could* happen, doesn't mean that there's necessarily a problem anywhere, maybe just a potential that needs to be shut off ad hoc.
tarkin
04-26-07, 05:26 PM I am glad they did not put "don't be a complete idiot" into the game.

Why? Because the rules should not allow you to be a complete idiot.

if you think the rules let someone do something that only a compelte idiot would allow then either:

1. You misunderstand what the rules say.

2. The rule itself is pretty stupid and should be changed.
liquidhypnotic
04-27-07, 12:29 AM Ha ha, you must be new to RPGs. Your naivete is refreshing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WinterPsionic 04-01-07, 11:48 AM	Any ideas? May have been 3rd party but I highly doubt it. To clarify it allowed a 5ft step before considering the result of the reflex throw allowing you to escape the effect area entirely.
CantripN 04-01-07, 12:00 PM	Closest I know of is Cunning Evasion, which lets you move 5' and Hide as an Immediate action when you successfully make an Evasion.
revaar 04-01-07, 12:05 PM	you're thinking of dive for cover, it's in Complete Adventurer.
CantripN 04-01-07, 04:48 PM	you're thinking of dive for cover, it's in Complete Adventurer. Doesn't Dive for Cover just allow you to retry a failed Reflex Save and fall prone while it?
ClementWillowbreaker 04-01-07, 04:51 PM	Doesn't Dive for Cover just allow you to retry a failed Reflex Save and fall prone while it? Yes. The OP is probably looking for something that lets him sidestep the area of effect, which is as valid as readying an action to sidestep an arrow after it as been fired but before it hits you.
Morwen 04-01-07, 04:57 PM	The Factotum class (Dungeonscape) has an ability called Cunning Dodge that allows you to do that.
Mystyc 04-01-07, 05:05 PM	Yes. The OP is probably looking for something that lets him sidestep the area of effect, which is as valid as readying an action to sidestep an arrow after it as been fired but before it hits you. You can ready up to a standard action, which includes a move action, and readied actions interrupt the action that triggered them. You can certainly ready an action to dive behind some cover in response to an arrow, although if it makes it impossible to shoot at you at all (total cover, instead of just a +4 AC from soft cover), then the interrupted party can change his mind. For the OP, that ability actually sounds familiar, but now I can't place it either. It's not Cunning Evasion, but something else. I'll poke around.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-01-07, 05:17 PM	then the interrupted party can change his mind. Most people fishing for this sort of ability like to argue that he can't choose a new target because they like to ignore how readied actions work (the way you described them is correct).
CaoSlayer 04-01-07, 05:18 PM	I did a variant evasion for fixing the inherent troubles of evasion such as getting unscratched ever if a grenade explodes in your feet... The variant is that a character with evasion who sucess in the save is able to move as an inmediate action outside the area of effect with the perk that if he moves more than 5ft he ends the action prone and if after moving still remains in the area suffers the whole damage. This variant was made for the most logical way to see an evation; that is the rogue running away and jumping before the explosion catchs him. The 5ft step could be something like that orc general from the third lord of the ring movie. If you keep that house rule, make it better to use only after a successful reflex since otherwise the character had not enough reflexes to react.
ClementWillowbreaker 04-01-07, 06:05 PM	While Evasion does raise suspension of disbelief issues (but for some reason, magic fireballs and demons don't), making it an immediate-action-move away does have problems. Swift/immediate actions aren't just for casters anymore- lots of martial abilities are using them, so that would unfairly gimp the rogue. Also, you run into difficulties when the rogue has either expended all his movement that round or took a 5ft step, which forbids other movement. That, along with the restriction of also having to reach cover, makes Evasion an incredibly restricted ability, so every class that grants it needs to be improved. It would be wonderful if Evasion required movement, but the way it has been incorporated into 3.5 along with movement rules makes it nearly impossible to solve in a clean way. It is easier to just pretend.
CaoSlayer 04-02-07, 04:12 AM	While Evasion does raise suspension of disbelief issues (but for some reason, magic fireballs and demons don't), making it an immediate-action-move away does have problems. Swift/immediate actions aren't just for casters anymore- lots of martial abilities are using them, so that would unfairly gimp the rogue. Also, you run into difficulties when the rogue has either expended all his movement that round or took a 5ft step, which forbids other movement. That, along with the restriction of also having to reach cover, makes Evasion an incredibly restricted ability, so every class that grants it needs to be improved. It would be wonderful if Evasion required movement, but the way it has been incorporated into 3.5 along with movement rules makes it nearly impossible to solve in a clean way. It is easier to just pretend. I did the beta version with just an inmediate action and not prone at the end because there was people willing to fireball his own rogue so he could move twice that round or move and then full attack an enemy.
Krusk 04-02-07, 09:28 AM	There is an item, boots of sidestep that do exactly this. From either complete scoundrel or mage. possibly dungeonscape.
WinterPsionic 04-02-07, 02:02 PM	I can't recall but I believe there was a penalty associated with the action so it doesn't simply allow a 5ft step. I still haven't found it so I may be thinking of an item effect as I did rather recently finish "reading" MIC though I'm almost positive I saw it in the context of a feat.
Dheran 04-02-07, 03:40 PM	Boots of Sidestep (MIC, page 78) don't fit the bill, because the 5' step they allow is a swift (not immediate) action. You can only use them on your turn, not in conjunction with a Reflex save.
Dheran 04-02-07, 03:55 PM	I did a variant evasion for fixing the inherent troubles of evasion such as getting unscratched ever if a grenade explodes in your feet... D&D doesn't have grenades, CaoSlayer. Evasion only works if you could normally make a Reflex save for half damage. Can you imagine being fast enough to dodge supersonic shrapnel? I can't. So a grenade wouldn't have a "Saving Throw: Reflex half" entry and Evasion wouldn't apply. But Fireballs are magical fire, and they operate at a much slower pace, and with much more limited effect, than grenades. (A real-world incendiary effect would cause most anything flammable to ignite. But a Fireball is magical, and is both slower and less powerful than a real incendiary weapon. It generally won't even singe the dozen scrolls tucked into a Rogue's belt.) If you can dodge half the blast effect without any special ability, it makes sense that someone with special talents could also dodge the other half. You're screwing up the game by trying to "fix" things to match an incorrect mental image.
CaoSlayer 04-02-07, 06:00 PM	D&D doesn't have grenades, CaoSlayer. Sure? Fire Seeds Conjuration (Creation) [Fire] Level: Drd 6, Fire 6, Sun 6 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Touch Targets: Up to four touched acorns or up to eight touched holly berries Duration: 10 min./level or until used Saving Throw: None or Reflex half; see text Spell Resistance: No Depending on the version of fire seeds you choose, you turn acorns into splash weapons that you or another character can throw, or you turn holly berries into bombs that you can detonate on command. Acorn Grenades As many as four acorns turn into special splash weapons that can be hurled as far as 100 feet. A ranged touch attack roll is required to strike the intended target. Together, the acorns are capable of dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6), divided up among the acorns as you wish. Each acorn explodes upon striking any hard surface. In addition to its regular fire damage, it deals 1 point of splash damage per die, and it ignites any combustible materials within 10 feet. A creature within this area that makes a successful Reflex saving throw takes only half damage; a creature struck directly is not allowed a saving throw. Yes, there are not world war 2 fragmentation grenades but are spells that emulate grenades such a fireball. You must acept that the fireball definition of an exploding little bead seems like a grenade and actual evasion definition is hard to imposible to imagine.
Dheran 04-02-07, 07:02 PM	You must acept that the fireball definition of an exploding little bead seems like a grenade and actual evasion definition is hard to imposible to imagine. And if someone is hit directly, no save is permitted; they take up to 20d6 damage. Despite the (misleading) name, these are splash weapons, not explosives. I can see someone evading a splash of Napalm.
CaoSlayer 04-03-07, 03:41 AM	You are playing the devil avocate a little, isnt? Then tell me that you see the actual evasion reallist and easy to see how a rogue have just evaded stuff like a dragon breath inside a 5x5x5 box.
Dheran 04-03-07, 10:37 AM	easy to see how a rogue have just evaded stuff like a dragon breath inside a 5x5x5 box. Easy? No, quite remarkable -- but not impossible. A dragon doesn't have a constant pressure air supply or an atomizer nozzle to ensure even dispersal of their breath weapon; instead they're belching up digestive juices (or whatever) and spitting them out. As a result of this inconsistent biological process there are "voids" in the spray -- parts that are mainly just bad breath rather than toxic material. A successful Reflex save means that you maneuver your (approximately) 2' wide, 1' thick body so that it's moving to avoid a lot of the harmful spray and seek out the voids. A successful Evasion means that you do an excellent job of hopping, crouching, and jinking -- and you hold your breath at the right time, too -- and end up moving through the voids in the spray for the full 3 seconds until it runs out. As a result you only have a foul odor in your nose and maybe some singed eyebrows -- cosmetic damage only, without losing any actual hit points.
WinterPsionic 04-03-07, 12:14 PM	...I don't mean to sound rude but could you please leave the arguement in Private messages? As lvely as the arguement is it should either have it's own thread or be kept private. Thank you! :D
CaoSlayer 04-03-07, 04:09 PM	The argument is kinda related to the topic since your sidestep is a kind of evasion (move out from an area spell to avoid any damage). Anyway I already said that should be allowed at least after doing the save since seems a type of reflexive reaction.
Sigma34561 04-03-07, 04:34 PM	magic item in dungeonscape lets you make a 5ft step before a reflex save, and if your outside the area you need to make a reflex save in, you dont have to make the save. its pretty cheap too, like 4k. It only works 1/round and maybe up to 3/day. boot slot.
Dheran 04-03-07, 05:36 PM	magic item in dungeonscape lets you make a 5ft step before a reflex save... boot slot. Can you provide the name of the item, please, Sigma? (WinterPsionic: Message received; I'll stay on topic.)
Krusk 04-03-07, 07:25 PM	its that item i brought up. boots of sidestep. apparently they were in MiC as well, but their power was way cut down. i dont own that book so i cant be sure.
Mystyc 04-04-07, 12:21 AM	its that item i brought up. boots of sidestep. apparently they were in MiC as well, but their power was way cut down. i dont own that book so i cant be sure. I think they're two distinct items that happen to have the same name. (This has happened before for spells, I know.) The two books came out only a month apart, so an item from Dungeonscape wouldn't have had time to be recycled to the MIC.
Dheran 04-04-07, 03:39 AM	I think they're two distinct items that happen to have the same name. (This has happened before for spells, I know.) The two books came out only a month apart, so an item from Dungeonscape wouldn't have had time to be recycled to the MIC. Unfortunately, the standard WotC rule is that any newer material with the same name replaces the old stuff. (Sometimes this results in a big power drop, as for example when the Song and Silence version of the Expert Tactician feat was replaced by the one in Complete Adventurer. Same name, but otherwise no relation.) Any DM who abides by that rule will disallow the Dungeonscape boots, if the same name was used in the MIC.
liquidhypnotic 04-26-07, 02:32 AM	Even if the players are willing to fireball a rogue to allow him extra movement, that simply shouldn't ever come up because the DM has final say on the matter, period, and if he or she allows it, then the problem is with him or her, not the feat. I do, however, wish that WOTC would include a "Hey.....don't be a complete and total idiot. And you KNOW when you're being a complete and total idiot." rule to the game. Just because something could happen, doesn't mean that there's necessarily a problem anywhere, maybe just a potential that needs to be shut off ad hoc.
tarkin 04-26-07, 05:26 PM	I am glad they did not put "don't be a complete idiot" into the game. Why? Because the rules should not allow you to be a complete idiot. if you think the rules let someone do something that only a compelte idiot would allow then either: 1. You misunderstand what the rules say. 2. The rule itself is pretty stupid and should be changed.
liquidhypnotic 04-27-07, 12:29 AM	Ha ha, you must be new to RPGs. Your naivete is refreshing.