A Diffrent Monkey Grip Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Diffrent Monkey Grip Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ToastedAmphibian
09-04-07, 05:39 PM Im thinking fo making a dwarven ranger
(Waits for laughing to subside)
and i want him to dual wield Dwarven Waraxes
Obviously Oversized Two Weapon Figthing is a must for my lvl 3 feat. My question is, if i use monkey grip also, i could wield 2 Large sized waraxes and would still recieve two weapon fighting penaltes as if my Large sized 1 handed weapon was a light weapon, right? (Plus an extra -2 on each attack for teh weapons being to large, of course)

Is this right, and if so, is it worth it?
[Recap; Large Waraxe=2-handed and -2hit + Monkey Grip= 1-handed and -2 hit + Oversized Two Weapon Fighting =light -4 hit (-2 large size, -2 two weapon fighting)]
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-04-07, 05:49 PM Nope. Monkey Grip specifically states "You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon." You don't get to use a waraxe for a large creature in your off hand at all, let alone treat it as light with Oversized TWF.

Monkey Grip isn't worth it in general anyway.
ToastedAmphibian
09-04-07, 06:07 PM Nope. Monkey Grip specifically states "You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon." You don't get to use a waraxe for a large creature in your off hand at all, let alone treat it as light with Oversized TWF.

Monkey Grip isn't worth it in general anyway.

:{ Sniff.
Nephlite
09-04-07, 08:59 PM Im thinking fo making a dwarven ranger
(Waits for laughing to subside)
and i want him to dual wield Dwarven Waraxes
Obviously Oversized Two Weapon Figthing is a must for my lvl 3 feat. My question is, if i use monkey grip also, i could wield 2 Large sized waraxes and would still recieve two weapon fighting penaltes as if my Large sized 1 handed weapon was a light weapon, right? (Plus an extra -2 on each attack for teh weapons being to large, of course)

Is this right, and if so, is it worth it?
[Recap; Large Waraxe=2-handed and -2hit + Monkey Grip= 1-handed and -2 hit + Oversized Two Weapon Fighting =light -4 hit (-2 large size, -2 two weapon fighting)]

One handed monkey grip is for those who want a shield.
For -2 penalty to deal 2d8 (if Dwarven Waraxe average 9). That is 4.5 more damage for -2 penalty. A little better than power attack.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-05-07, 07:16 AM 3.5 more, actually, the 1d10 waraxe averages 5.5 damage.

Better if you're going one-handed (why the hell would you?), worse if you're going two-handed, and you can't turn it off.

Might as well use a regular waraxe in two hands and have armor spikes for your offhand weapon.
tarkin
09-05-07, 10:38 AM One handed monkey grip is for those who want a shield.
For -2 penalty to deal 2d8 (if Dwarven Waraxe average 9). That is 4.5 more damage for -2 penalty. A little better than power attack.

Not quite.

Medium sized Dwarven War Axe (1d10) averages 5.5 damage.

Large Sized Dwarven War Axe (2d8) averages 9 points of damage.

9-5.5 = 3.5, not 4.5 Monkey Grip is once again WORSE than Power Grip.

To get the 4.5 boost you need to start out as a Large sized, using a bastard sword/dwarven war axe, boosting from 2d8 to 3d8, +4.5 But honestly, that build is not that interesting. It is only barely better than Power Attack and Power Attack is USUSALLY a bad choice.

Monkey Grip is a feat that is designed for BIG charactersIf you can not start out as at least Large sized, it will rarely be worth your while.

A viable build is:

1. WereBear (counts as medium sized humanoid)
2. In hybrid form (Large sized humanoid)
3. Drinking a potion /under the spell of Enlarge Person (Huge sized creature)
4. Using Monkey Grip to wield a Gargantuan sized Great Axe. Damage is 6d6 instead of 4d6, a 7 point increase.

This build will consistently benefit from Monkey Grip a lot more than he would have from Power Attack, so the -2 penalty becomes worth it.
RobbyPants
09-05-07, 11:21 AM Im thinking fo making a dwarven ranger
(Waits for laughing to subside)
and i want him to dual wield Dwarven Waraxes
Obviously Oversized Two Weapon Figthing is a must for my lvl 3 feat.
Well, at least the first part works (without Monkey Grip). The nice thing about doing this with a dwarf ranger is that it only costs you one feat (as you've noticed). 1d10/1d10 per hand isn't all that bad. I wouldn't call it optimized, but for the cost of one feat, it could be a fun combo to play.

Medium sized Dwarven War Axe (1d10) averages 5.5 damage.

Large Sized Dwarven War Axe (2d8) averages 9 points of damage.

9-5.5 = 3.5, not 4.5 Monkey Grip is once again WORSE than Power Grip.

To get the 4.5 boost you need to start out as a Large sized, using a bastard sword/dwarven war axe, boosting from 2d8 to 3d8, +4.5 But honestly, that build is not that interesting. It is only barely better than Power Attack and Power Attack is USUSALLY a bad choice.
Well, I agree that the increase in average damage form 1d10 to 2d8 is 3.5. Still, isn't this better than Power Attack by 1.5? Waraxes are one-handed weapons, meaning you only get a 1:1 return on Power Attack. Thus a -2 penalty to hit (compared to the standard Monkey Grip) only nets you +2 damage (not the +4 of a two-hander).

Although I will admit that I don't see this +1.5 damage increase compared to Power Attack to be good enough to justify taking a -2 penalty on all of my attacks. Peronally, I wouldn't waste the feat on it. Although if I'm looking for a way to boost my damage at the expense of my attack roll, I'm probably going to make a two-handed weapon user that utilizes Power Attack, Combat Brute, and Leap Attack anyway ;)
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-05-07, 11:56 AM One-handed weapons (but not light weapons) can, and often should, be wielded in two hands for improved benefits. About the only time you shouldn't is when you're dual wielding or using a shield, and there are alternate ways to do that anyway. You can TWF with a weapon in two hands plus armor spikes.

Another thing you could try is talking to your DM about trading around your racial exotic weapon proficiencies, like on pages 154-155 of Complete Warrior. A waraxe and a buckler-axe would be a decent combination if you wanted to TWF and use a shield, though you'd need to pick up Improved Buckler Defense to keep the buckler-axe's AC benefit. Hell, you might even consider using two buckler-axes so you only had to take weapon-specific improvement feats for one kind of weapon (though sadly you would not get to stack the AC benefits of both shields... but on the up side you could enhance one for straight AC and the other for non-AC shield-specific defenses).
RobbyPants
09-05-07, 12:06 PM Another thing you could try is talking to your DM about trading around your racial exotic weapon proficiencies, like on pages 154-155 of Complete Warrior. A waraxe and a buckler-axe would be a decent combination if you wanted to TWF and use a shield, though you'd need to pick up Improved Buckler Defense to keep the buckler-axe's AC benefit. Hell, you might even consider using two buckler-axes so you only had to take weapon-specific improvement feats for one kind of weapon (though sadly you would not get to stack the AC benefits of both shields... but on the up side you could enhance one for straight AC and the other for non-AC shield-specific defenses).
That's actually a pretty interesting idea. If you are willing to spend the feats, you can try to have your cake and eat it too with the Tempest PrC in the Complete Adventurer. One of the abilities (Versitile TWF, or something like that) allows you to apply all weapon specific feats to your other weapon if the assignment is legal. So all of your Weapon Focus/Specialization feats need only be spent once.

...of course, you make up for that with Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack just to get into the class :P
Someone
09-05-07, 12:12 PM I was under the impression that all Oversize TWF did was reduce the to-hit penalty for wielding a non-light off-hand weapon, not treat whatever weapon you had in your off-hand as light.
Shaggy_Shaggs
09-05-07, 12:31 PM Personally I'd prefer to use the buckler-axes for a swashbuckler/fighter/scout/dervish/tempest build but the OP seemed more interested in playing a ranger... they could still be useful for that, just not as useful.
RobbyPants
09-05-07, 12:44 PM I was under the impression that all Oversize TWF did was reduce the to-hit penalty for wielding a non-light off-hand weapon, not treat whatever weapon you had in your off-hand as light.
Correct. You do not take an additional penalty for wielding a non-light weapon in your offhand with Oversized TWF. Of course, the Monkey Grip feat itself limits the OP from doing what he originally wanted.
ToastedAmphibian
09-05-07, 08:05 PM Stupid words expressly prohibitting me from doing what I want!
(Seriously, why does every thread that says monkey grip in it get the same 8 responses of "Monkey grip Sucks Compared to Power Attack Dont Take IT" My idea was completly blown out of the water by the first post, just let the thread die :} )

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ToastedAmphibian 09-04-07, 05:39 PM	Im thinking fo making a dwarven ranger (Waits for laughing to subside) and i want him to dual wield Dwarven Waraxes Obviously Oversized Two Weapon Figthing is a must for my lvl 3 feat. My question is, if i use monkey grip also, i could wield 2 Large sized waraxes and would still recieve two weapon fighting penaltes as if my Large sized 1 handed weapon was a light weapon, right? (Plus an extra -2 on each attack for teh weapons being to large, of course) Is this right, and if so, is it worth it? [Recap; Large Waraxe=2-handed and -2hit + Monkey Grip= 1-handed and -2 hit + Oversized Two Weapon Fighting =light -4 hit (-2 large size, -2 two weapon fighting)]
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-04-07, 05:49 PM	Nope. Monkey Grip specifically states "You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon." You don't get to use a waraxe for a large creature in your off hand at all, let alone treat it as light with Oversized TWF. Monkey Grip isn't worth it in general anyway.
ToastedAmphibian 09-04-07, 06:07 PM	Nope. Monkey Grip specifically states "You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon." You don't get to use a waraxe for a large creature in your off hand at all, let alone treat it as light with Oversized TWF. Monkey Grip isn't worth it in general anyway. :{ Sniff.
Nephlite 09-04-07, 08:59 PM	Im thinking fo making a dwarven ranger (Waits for laughing to subside) and i want him to dual wield Dwarven Waraxes Obviously Oversized Two Weapon Figthing is a must for my lvl 3 feat. My question is, if i use monkey grip also, i could wield 2 Large sized waraxes and would still recieve two weapon fighting penaltes as if my Large sized 1 handed weapon was a light weapon, right? (Plus an extra -2 on each attack for teh weapons being to large, of course) Is this right, and if so, is it worth it? [Recap; Large Waraxe=2-handed and -2hit + Monkey Grip= 1-handed and -2 hit + Oversized Two Weapon Fighting =light -4 hit (-2 large size, -2 two weapon fighting)] One handed monkey grip is for those who want a shield. For -2 penalty to deal 2d8 (if Dwarven Waraxe average 9). That is 4.5 more damage for -2 penalty. A little better than power attack.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-05-07, 07:16 AM	3.5 more, actually, the 1d10 waraxe averages 5.5 damage. Better if you're going one-handed (why the hell would you?), worse if you're going two-handed, and you can't turn it off. Might as well use a regular waraxe in two hands and have armor spikes for your offhand weapon.
tarkin 09-05-07, 10:38 AM	One handed monkey grip is for those who want a shield. For -2 penalty to deal 2d8 (if Dwarven Waraxe average 9). That is 4.5 more damage for -2 penalty. A little better than power attack. Not quite. Medium sized Dwarven War Axe (1d10) averages 5.5 damage. Large Sized Dwarven War Axe (2d8) averages 9 points of damage. 9-5.5 = 3.5, not 4.5 Monkey Grip is once again WORSE than Power Grip. To get the 4.5 boost you need to start out as a Large sized, using a bastard sword/dwarven war axe, boosting from 2d8 to 3d8, +4.5 But honestly, that build is not that interesting. It is only barely better than Power Attack and Power Attack is USUSALLY a bad choice. Monkey Grip is a feat that is designed for BIG charactersIf you can not start out as at least Large sized, it will rarely be worth your while. A viable build is: 1. WereBear (counts as medium sized humanoid) 2. In hybrid form (Large sized humanoid) 3. Drinking a potion /under the spell of Enlarge Person (Huge sized creature) 4. Using Monkey Grip to wield a Gargantuan sized Great Axe. Damage is 6d6 instead of 4d6, a 7 point increase. This build will consistently benefit from Monkey Grip a lot more than he would have from Power Attack, so the -2 penalty becomes worth it.
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 11:21 AM	Im thinking fo making a dwarven ranger (Waits for laughing to subside) and i want him to dual wield Dwarven Waraxes Obviously Oversized Two Weapon Figthing is a must for my lvl 3 feat. Well, at least the first part works (without Monkey Grip). The nice thing about doing this with a dwarf ranger is that it only costs you one feat (as you've noticed). 1d10/1d10 per hand isn't all that bad. I wouldn't call it optimized, but for the cost of one feat, it could be a fun combo to play. Medium sized Dwarven War Axe (1d10) averages 5.5 damage. Large Sized Dwarven War Axe (2d8) averages 9 points of damage. 9-5.5 = 3.5, not 4.5 Monkey Grip is once again WORSE than Power Grip. To get the 4.5 boost you need to start out as a Large sized, using a bastard sword/dwarven war axe, boosting from 2d8 to 3d8, +4.5 But honestly, that build is not that interesting. It is only barely better than Power Attack and Power Attack is USUSALLY a bad choice. Well, I agree that the increase in average damage form 1d10 to 2d8 is 3.5. Still, isn't this better than Power Attack by 1.5? Waraxes are one-handed weapons, meaning you only get a 1:1 return on Power Attack. Thus a -2 penalty to hit (compared to the standard Monkey Grip) only nets you +2 damage (not the +4 of a two-hander). Although I will admit that I don't see this +1.5 damage increase compared to Power Attack to be good enough to justify taking a -2 penalty on all of my attacks. Peronally, I wouldn't waste the feat on it. Although if I'm looking for a way to boost my damage at the expense of my attack roll, I'm probably going to make a two-handed weapon user that utilizes Power Attack, Combat Brute, and Leap Attack anyway ;)
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-05-07, 11:56 AM	One-handed weapons (but not light weapons) can, and often should, be wielded in two hands for improved benefits. About the only time you shouldn't is when you're dual wielding or using a shield, and there are alternate ways to do that anyway. You can TWF with a weapon in two hands plus armor spikes. Another thing you could try is talking to your DM about trading around your racial exotic weapon proficiencies, like on pages 154-155 of Complete Warrior. A waraxe and a buckler-axe would be a decent combination if you wanted to TWF and use a shield, though you'd need to pick up Improved Buckler Defense to keep the buckler-axe's AC benefit. Hell, you might even consider using two buckler-axes so you only had to take weapon-specific improvement feats for one kind of weapon (though sadly you would not get to stack the AC benefits of both shields... but on the up side you could enhance one for straight AC and the other for non-AC shield-specific defenses).
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 12:06 PM	Another thing you could try is talking to your DM about trading around your racial exotic weapon proficiencies, like on pages 154-155 of Complete Warrior. A waraxe and a buckler-axe would be a decent combination if you wanted to TWF and use a shield, though you'd need to pick up Improved Buckler Defense to keep the buckler-axe's AC benefit. Hell, you might even consider using two buckler-axes so you only had to take weapon-specific improvement feats for one kind of weapon (though sadly you would not get to stack the AC benefits of both shields... but on the up side you could enhance one for straight AC and the other for non-AC shield-specific defenses). That's actually a pretty interesting idea. If you are willing to spend the feats, you can try to have your cake and eat it too with the Tempest PrC in the Complete Adventurer. One of the abilities (Versitile TWF, or something like that) allows you to apply all weapon specific feats to your other weapon if the assignment is legal. So all of your Weapon Focus/Specialization feats need only be spent once. ...of course, you make up for that with Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack just to get into the class :P
Someone 09-05-07, 12:12 PM	I was under the impression that all Oversize TWF did was reduce the to-hit penalty for wielding a non-light off-hand weapon, not treat whatever weapon you had in your off-hand as light.
Shaggy_Shaggs 09-05-07, 12:31 PM	Personally I'd prefer to use the buckler-axes for a swashbuckler/fighter/scout/dervish/tempest build but the OP seemed more interested in playing a ranger... they could still be useful for that, just not as useful.
RobbyPants 09-05-07, 12:44 PM	I was under the impression that all Oversize TWF did was reduce the to-hit penalty for wielding a non-light off-hand weapon, not treat whatever weapon you had in your off-hand as light. Correct. You do not take an additional penalty for wielding a non-light weapon in your offhand with Oversized TWF. Of course, the Monkey Grip feat itself limits the OP from doing what he originally wanted.
ToastedAmphibian 09-05-07, 08:05 PM	Stupid words expressly prohibitting me from doing what I want! (Seriously, why does every thread that says monkey grip in it get the same 8 responses of "Monkey grip Sucks Compared to Power Attack Dont Take IT" My idea was completly blown out of the water by the first post, just let the thread die :} )