Post/Author/DateTime	Post
paradox1995 07-15-07, 12:50 AM	Is there a feat that lets you increase the crit. hit damage modifier of a specific weapon... for example a scimitar from x2 to x3?:confused:
Twylyght 07-15-07, 02:50 AM	a couple of class abilities, but no feats that I know of, sorry :(
Ghostwheel 07-15-07, 03:26 AM	a couple of class abilities, but no feats that I know of, sorry :( Just curious, but could you enumerate those class abilities for us, please? :thinks:
The_Unseen_Illusion 07-15-07, 03:36 AM	I think Master Throwers from Cwr have an abililty to do just that, but it would only apply to thrown weapons
Ghostwheel 07-15-07, 03:42 AM	I think Master Throwers from Cwr have an ability to do just that, but it would only apply to thrown weapons Thank you, I will check that out tomorrow. That is one, are there any more? :thinks:
PhaedrusXY 07-15-07, 03:53 AM	Weapon master (oriental adventures and sword and fist), psychic weapon master (mind's eye article on the WotC webpage), and Disciple of Dispater (Book of Vile Darkness).
Garonak 07-15-07, 04:13 AM	Deepwood Sniper also has one, but it's 3.0 and it only works for bows.
Twylyght 07-15-07, 04:30 AM	^ they got the ones i was thinking of, plus a couple lol
Daeva 07-15-07, 07:02 PM	thats a really powerufll ability but i think this would be balanced, people must also consider the ffect it iwll hav eon burst and thundering and whatever weapon abilities/ Greater critical strike requires BAB +11, imporved critical in selected weapon, power critical in selected weapon. Effect: choose a weapon in which you have improved critical and power critical, the critical hit multiplier is increased by 1.
tarkin 07-16-07, 10:38 AM	This has been discussed before. The abuses are when you mix it with a high multiplier weapon and also take Keen/Improved Critical. That is it is fair when used on a weapon that starts out as 20x2, 20x3, 20x4 or even 20x5 (Hey, if a crit at x5 doesn't kill them, then you REALLY need ax6, but honestly is probably is not going to help you enough) It is NOT fair when you start it out on a 18-20x2 or even a 19-20 weapon that you also make Keen/take improved Critical. In those cases, the math can make it more powerfull than any existing feat, and that is why WoTC made it a Prestige Class ability. Strict Game: Feat not allowed. Loose Game: Feat is restricted to only work on weapons that only crit on a natural 20. Power Game/Anything Goes: Feat allowed on all weapons
Vaelan 07-16-07, 05:27 PM	It does not present an overall balance problem. However, it does not apply equally to all weapons and thus needs a redesign.
risner 07-16-07, 07:35 PM	Weapon master (oriental adventures and sword and fist), psychic weapon master (mind's eye article on the WotC webpage), and Disciple of Dispater (Book of Vile Darkness). Weapon Master has been updated (now called "Exotic Weapon Master"), so is no longer officially valid in 3.5 games.
Twylyght 07-16-07, 09:14 PM	Weapon Master has been updated (now called "Exotic Weapon Master"), so is no longer officially valid in 3.5 games. Exotic Weapon Master is not the 3.5 update of the 3.0 Weapon Master. The 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master is an update of the 3.0 class, brace yourself, Exotic Weapon Master page 53, Master of The Wild.
risner 07-16-07, 10:21 PM	Exotic Weapon Master is not the 3.5 update of the 3.0 Weapon Master. The 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master is an update of the 3.0 class, brace yourself, Exotic Weapon Master page 53, Master of The Wild. I love your post. Especially consider you are 100% absolutely dead wrong. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x Please don't embarrass yourself with such an authoritative tone, when you might be wrong in the future. To recap, 3.0 Weapon Master was updated with Exotic Weapon master in 3.5. In fact, EWM updated more than one 3.0 class.
bernardofbbraga 07-17-07, 12:53 AM	I love your post. Especially consider you are 100% absolutely dead wrong. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x Please don't embarrass yourself with such an authoritative tone, when you might be wrong in the future. To recap, 3.0 Weapon Master was updated with Exotic Weapon master in 3.5. In fact, EWM updated more than one 3.0 class. But if you check the "Exotic Weapon Master" in Complete Warrior, you'll see it's a total diferent class than the "Weapon Master" from sword and fist. compleatly different, not a single thing in common. how is this an update? i'm not trying to sound smart, acctually i'm here to learn. Or did they just threw away the class because it was overpowered?
Twylyght 07-17-07, 01:41 AM	I love your post. Especially consider you are 100% absolutely dead wrong. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x Please don't embarrass yourself with such an authoritative tone, when you might be wrong in the future. To recap, 3.0 Weapon Master was updated with Exotic Weapon master in 3.5. In fact, EWM updated more than one 3.0 class. You are correct thats exactly what the webpage says. I'll admit my error there. The wizards post seems to be about the only "official" word on the matter and until now I hadn't seen it before. I apologise for any tone carried in my post. Now the wizards website isnt without errors, contradiction, and misinformation of its own, and I believe this to be some of it. Looking at it now, they also claim its the "update" of the master of chains. Someone I would have to say, sat down and looked at a list of old PrC names and decided anything that sounded like the new class was updated by it without looking at any info, so "master" of chains, "Weapon Master", and "Exotic weapon master" all got listed as updated by "Exotic Weapon Master" 3.5 even though only one of them has anything to do with it. Looking at some other stuff on the list Master Samurai apparently got "updated" to the base Samurai in complete warrior. A 2-handed weapon specialist with wisdom based bonuses, cleave features, and a karmic strike like ability and the official "replacent" is a class whos only real benefit is two-weapon fighting worse than a ranger with a charisma based smite? No, they both are "samurai" so it got listed as updated. Strangly, the watch detective, is listed as unrevised, when the Justicar very much seems like it was meant for the role, sharing some features and flavor. Sometimes you have to consider that 1. The people running the website are just as human as the people reading it. 2. The chance that whoevers making the list, isnt familiar with the source at hand. 3. Someone knew what they were doing, but got lazy part way through. Maybe a mix of them, maybe not. There is still alot of questionable and odd decisions on that list, if the intent was to make all the exotic weapon focused classes part of "Exotic Weapon Master" why wasnt Lasher included. Im pretty certain though, that classes were not intentionally replaced with ones that share no class features at all apart from a simular word in the name. Its not like any of them were that out of whack. But if you check the "Exotic Weapon Master" in Complete Warrior, you'll see it's a total diferent class than the "Weapon Master" from sword and fist. compleatly different, not a single thing in common. how is this an update? i'm not trying to sound smart, acctually i'm here to learn. Or did they just threw away the class because it was overpowered? Maybe at the time it was published it may have seen pretty strong (for melee, magic has always trumped us tharsher types) with the current condition of the "power creep" its a fine class. The largest issue with it was probally the old stacking of improved critical(feat), improved critical(class ability), and Keen. With that loop hole sealed up, its back down where it should be. Whirlwind as a standard doesnt bother me any either, there so many ways to do worse things anymore its seems tame (Isn't it the warhulk that can effectivly superior whirlwind(ALL THREATENED SQUARES) with every attack of a full attack action?) I still think it was an error or an oversight. Maybe intentional, but I can't think of any reason why.
skydin 07-17-07, 01:57 AM	i LOVE it when people dont take what wizards says at face value. RAW only applies to SAP (situations as planned), physics + dnd = retardedness, and the website is NOT the final authority on everything. of course not all of that is directed against any one person specificaly...i was just in the mood for a rant. ps. if you reply to this taking anything i said in the rant seriously, you need lessons in life, because so far your losing at it. not because i didnt mean any of it, i meant some of it, but because i dont want to be replied to in this context, and i feel another rant coming on. (shuts up)
bernardofbbraga 07-17-07, 04:07 AM	It feels to me that, basically, they took these two prestige classes, threw them away and created a brand new one and said: "hey, this is the update for BOTH prestige classes", right? I know the final word should always be the DM's choice, but if the DM is a obsessive compulsive one about the rules, this means the Weapon Master prestige class as it is shown on "sword and fist" shouldn't be used on a 3.5 game.. any thoughts on why it was "updated"? I suppose WOTC had to decide which one of the three prestige classes (weapon master, old exotic weapon master and new exotic weapon master) would go in the "complete warrior" book, more than one of them would be kinda confusing or even boring. So they chose the new weapon master, pure and simple. On why they said they "updated" the classes I have no clue. edit: btw, if any of you play NWN2, you'll notice that the prestige class "weapon master" as shown on "sword and fist" is avaliable. There's a feat missing in the prerequisites but I'm not sure if it's balancing (I looked windwhirl attack on both 3.0 and 3.5 books last night and I think it has an extra prerequisite on 3.5) or simply one of NWN2 missing feats (some feats are non existant in NWN2 to make it more a computer game)
skydin 07-17-07, 04:15 AM	well, you know the part where it says you dont need to read through the whole book, just skim and look things up? well thats code for "their not really rules, more like guidlines..."
Optimator 07-17-07, 06:36 AM	i LOVE it when people dont take what wizards says at face value. RAW only applies to SAP (situations as planned), physics + dnd = retardedness, and the website is NOT the final authority on everything. of course not all of that is directed against any one person specificaly...i was just in the mood for a rant. ps. if you reply to this taking anything i said in the rant seriously, you need lessons in life, because so far your losing at it. not because i didnt mean any of it, i meant some of it, but because i dont want to be replied to in this context, and i feel another rant coming on. (shuts up) :confused:
risner 07-17-07, 07:13 AM	I still think it was an error or an oversight. Maybe intentional, but I can't think of any reason why. You and I disagree. I believe that list is what it says it is. The 3.0 update done at the time they wanted to update all the 3.0 material they deemed worthy of changing. I see the changes they made as deliberate. I highly doubt the list was changed by the website posters (the staff responsible or making it accessible.) I also take the lack of Lasher included on the list as an additional sign of the deliberate action. I suspect there were elements in those classes they deliberately chose to not advance to 3.5 edition. If you remove enough abilities the viability of the class to be played ceases to exist. If the class provides little or no abilities in a 3.5 game and what is left is similar enough to another class, merging them into one class seems the reasonable thing to do (it is what I would do.) btw, if any of you play NWN2, you'll notice that the prestige class "weapon master" as shown on "sword and fist" is avaliable. NWN2 and NWN1 are still mostly 3.0 games. I could write a book on the differences between NWN and D&D 3.0 or 3.5 versions.
EjoThims 07-17-07, 08:12 AM	I love your post. Especially consider you are 100% absolutely dead wrong. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x Please don't embarrass yourself with such an authoritative tone, when you might be wrong in the future. To recap, 3.0 Weapon Master was updated with Exotic Weapon master in 3.5. In fact, EWM updated more than one 3.0 class. I'm not sure whether to be annoyed at this mesh, especially with the other classes snagged up by it to (a lot of flavor and creativy is lost with this), or to give them a nod for so soundly sweeping up the problems with the classes (though honestly Master of Chains was only broken because Spiked Chains were and still are). I do know that either way I'm 100% glad Lasher didn't get caught up in it all.
bernardofbbraga 07-17-07, 02:00 PM	NWN2 and NWN1 are still mostly 3.0 games. I could write a book on the differences between NWN and D&D 3.0 or 3.5 versions. yes I know it's different, as I said b4, they made changes to make it more a computer game and less a role playing game. But still, NWN2 was released on 2006, and 3.5 on 2003. It makes little sense to me that they'd use 3.0 rules on NWN2, but still, NWN2 does NOT have the same rules as D&D. I simply pointed out the fact that, NWN2 is an official D&D game and HAS the "sword and fist" weapon master. well, you know the part where it says you dont need to read through the whole book, just skim and look things up? well thats code for "their not really rules, more like guidlines..." is using sarcasm a prerequisite to post on this forum ? I'll try mine I find making rules extremely boring and HARD. I don't have the balls (crystal balls that is) to analyze every side of a rule to make it balanced. Neither does WOTC, that's why they have that huge list of testers on their books. That's why I PAID them to do it (by buying their books). Nevertheless, they are WAY better at making rules balanced than I ever aspire to be, that's the reason I bought the books, instead of making up my own RPG. As to using the rules as guidelines, I see that if a rule is making the game less fun, then it should be bent to make the game more fun. Simple as that. I'm not going to disconsider a bunch of rules just because I don't fancy them. If I wanted to just do as I please, I wouldn't be on this forum asking for different thoughts than my own on the subject, as I consider that I'm not perfect and HEY! maybe someone has better ideas than I have or even read some articles that I haven't! and I quote George Bernard Shaw: "If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange these apples then you and I will still each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange these ideas, then each of us will have two ideas." So instead of using sarcasm why don't you try to add some useful information to the topic or even just add you opinion in a more modest fashion.
risner 07-17-07, 03:57 PM	NWN2 does NOT have the same rules as D&D. I simply pointed out the fact that, NWN2 is an official D&D game and HAS the "sword and fist" weapon master. And I point out again, that NWN isn't D&D. It isn't written by any of the same people. It isn't approved by any of the same people. It is as much a "set of house rules" as any home game can be. So bringing it up in any way is just a straw man argument.
Twylyght 07-17-07, 04:19 PM	You and I disagree. I believe that list is what it says it is. The 3.0 update done at the time they wanted to update all the 3.0 material they deemed worthy of changing. I see the changes they made as deliberate. I highly doubt the list was changed by the website posters (the staff responsible or making it accessible.) I also take the lack of Lasher included on the list as an additional sign of the deliberate action. I suspect there were elements in those classes they deliberately chose to not advance to 3.5 edition. If you remove enough abilities the viability of the class to be played ceases to exist. If the class provides little or no abilities in a 3.5 game and what is left is similar enough to another class, merging them into one class seems the reasonable thing to do (it is what I would do.) True enough, but I dont think that any of the abilities of Weapon Master or Master of Chains were(or rather needed) specifically targeted to remove them from the 3.5 landscape, as I think all of them but the weaponmasters "Improved Critical +2 bonus" have been replicated or reintroduced in 3.5 class abilities or feats(sometimes even more potent versions).
zelf_gale 07-17-07, 06:28 PM	The reasons that critical modifier increasing abilities are incredibly powerful is not because the players abuse them... ...its because the monsters do.
starfire311 07-17-07, 06:41 PM	Weapon Master has been updated (now called "Exotic Weapon Master"), so is no longer officially valid in 3.5 games. just because some hack with a keyboard decided to say that exotic weapon master is the update for weapon master does not mean it makes sense or should even be listened to. in 3E I had a weapon master specialized in greatsword, how in the world does that get updated to exotic weapon master. as to the OPs question I made this feat some time ago. Greater Critical [Fighter] Prerequisites: Improved Critical, Power Critical, BAB +12 Choose a weapon that you have improved critical with. When wielding the chosen weapon, if you threaten a critical, make two critical rolls. If one succeeds then you confirm the critical as normal. If both critical rolls succeed, then you do additional damage based on the crit multiplier of the weapon. If the crit multiplier was x2 then resolve it as x3 instead, if it was x3 then resolve it as x5 , if it was x4 then resolve as x7. I think I got a link to it in my sig.
Bopple 07-17-07, 09:07 PM	They intentionally retired 3.0 Weapon Master, imo. It's one of the archetypal character concept, but they did not updated into 3.5 weapon master. They made 3.5 exotic weapon master and kensai. I don't think it's a mere error or coincidence.
JiCi 07-17-07, 09:50 PM	Is there a feat that lets you increase the crit. hit damage modifier of a specific weapon... for example a scimitar from x2 to x3?:confused:Official ? No... Homebrewed ? Yes... Greater Critical [General] Choose one type of weapon, such as longsword or greataxe. In your hands, you deal tremendous damage when you hit a vital point. Prerequisites: Proficient with chosen weapon, Improved Critical (chosen weapon), Base Attack Bonus +12 Benefit: When using the weapon you selected, the weapon’s damage multiplier increases by 1. Special: A fighter may select Greater Critical as one of his fighter bonus feats. Furthermore, you may take this feat more than once; its effects do not stack. Each time you select this feat, it applies to a new type of weapon in which you may Improved Critical. What do you think ?
Lotus Crane 07-17-07, 10:24 PM	The biggest problem with most of the proposed feats is that they include Improved Critical and/or Power Critical as prerequisites. Considering how well an increased multiplier synergizes with an expanded threat range, anybody who takes "Greater Critical" would want to also have Improved Critical anyway, even if it wasn't a prerequisite. Instead of Improved Critical, the prerequisites for any "Greater Critical" feat should be less obviously useful, such as perhaps Weapon Focus or even Weapon Specialization.
Novabomb 07-17-07, 10:43 PM	True enough, but I dont think that any of the abilities of Weapon Master or Master of Chains were(or rather needed) specifically targeted to remove them from the 3.5 landscape, as I think all of them but the weaponmasters "Improved Critical +2 bonus" have been replicated or reintroduced in 3.5 class abilities or feats(sometimes even more potent versions). <sarcasm>Yeah.... Im sure this is totally correct... THIS http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a must be a fake. </sarcasm> They intentionally retired 3.0 Weapon Master, imo. It's one of the archetypal character concept, but they did not updated into 3.5 weapon master. They made 3.5 exotic weapon master and kensai. I don't think it's a mere error or coincidence. <sarcasm> Yes, because they havent redone a class with weaponmaster abilities... nope PWM has none of the abilities worthy of 3.5 </sarcasm>
Twylyght 07-17-07, 11:51 PM	True enough, but I dont think that any of the abilities of Weapon Master or Master of Chains were(or rather needed) specifically targeted to remove them from the 3.5 landscape, as I think all of them but the weaponmasters "Improved Critical +2 bonus" have been replicated or reintroduced in 3.5 class abilities or feats(sometimes even more potent versions). <sarcasm>Yeah.... Im sure this is totally correct... THIS http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020927a must be a fake. </sarcasm> No, its not a fake, but its also predates 3.5 by almost 10 full months as 3.5 launched in July of 2003, and the class was posted in Spetember of 2002. Regardless of that, my post I am pretty certain was supporting that the abilities still exist in some form in 3.5, not against it.
risner 07-18-07, 12:32 AM	just because some hack with a keyboard decided to say that exotic weapon master is the update for weapon master does not mean it makes sense or should even be listened to. in 3E I had a weapon master specialized in greatsword, how in the world does that get updated to exotic weapon master. Because those are the rules. You are free to Rule 0 or house rule it differently, and I shall not deny you that right. But I will stand up to announce the official rules when the question is asked and you should be doing the same. Back to the OP question and the two posted homebrew feats, I think these should be limited in the same way Improved Critical and Keen are limited. In other words, they should be exclusive of each other: Greater Critical BAB +5 The multiplier is increased based on this table: 20 Threat +1 multiplier (20x2 = 20x3, 20x3 = 20x4, etc.) 19-20 Threat +2 multiplier and now 20 Threat (19-20x2 = 20x4) 18-20 Threat +3 multiplier and now 20 Threat (18-20x2 = 20x5) <= 17 Threat no effect Special: This does not stack with Improved Critical, Keen, or any other Threat increasing effects.
Rolof 07-18-07, 04:31 AM	As stated, there is the Deepwood Sniper (3.0) for bows only. The DMG also has the Oathbow, if you swear to kill a single creature, the bow basically gets bane: that creature, and a x4 mod instead of x3. Master Thrower was mentioned, in theory you could do this to have x3 scimitars or rapiers, by also having the Throw Anything feat, and throwing rapiers/scimitars instead of daggers. In the Draconomicon, there is a feat that increases the crit up to a x7 I think, depending on what the original crit multiplier was. Only applies when fighting dragons, though. Magic property called Maiming...I forget where I first saw it, I thought it had a random element in it; like "roll d4, the result is your crit mod for this hit" or something like that, which I didn't like. Looking at it in my Magic Item Compendium, though, it just does extra damage...doesn't actually increase the mod, just adds 1, 2, or 3d6 extra damage to x2, x3, and x4 respectively. Either I'm not remembering right, or this contradicts the original. There's also something called Devastation Gauntlets, which only have 3 charges, and can be used for extra damage dice on a crit; 1 charge = 2d6, 2 charges = 3d6, and so on. Sorta related, if critting is REALLY your thing, for an extra 1,000 gp you can have your weapon made of (3.0) Solanian Truesteel, which makes weapons so sharp they add a non-magical +1 to a crit-confirmation roll.
Bopple 07-18-07, 07:27 AM	<sarcasm> Yes, because they havent redone a class with weaponmaster abilities... nope PWM has none of the abilities worthy of 3.5 </sarcasm> <sarcasm>It's no wonder every DM allows PWM in her game.</sarcasm>
Frugal 07-18-07, 08:18 AM	yes I know it's different, as I said b4, they made changes to make it more a computer game and less a role playing game. But still, NWN2 was released on 2006, and 3.5 on 2003. It makes little sense to me that they'd use 3.0 rules on NWN2, but still, NWN2 does NOT have the same rules as D&D. I simply pointed out the fact that, NWN2 is an official D&D game and HAS the "sword and fist" weapon master. I haven't played NWN2 but from posts on the boards it sounds like it still uses 3.0 weapon sizes and the 3.0 version of Monkey Grip so there's at least some 3.0 material kicking around in it. Also remember that Weapon Master was an available PrC in the 1st game so they may have kept it in for that reason. And also remember that "official D&D video game" is not the same as "official D&D rules".
bernardofbbraga 07-18-07, 03:22 PM	Jeez, it's the third time I'll say it. I know the rules in NWN2 are not the same as 3.5, that was merely a footnote, an observation that somewhere the class was kept. I guess we're getting off the original topic here, and I take some responsibility for that. Here's a link to a more appropriate thread to discuss the weapon master class (Weapon Masters are they extinct?) : http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=884530
Frugal 07-18-07, 03:42 PM	Generally mucking around with crit multipliers is a no-no in 3.5, there's very few situations where it comes up. I do agree that Weapon Master didn't need to be eliminated completely as now you're forced to be a master of an exotic weapon whereas before you could've been a greatsword master, or warhammer master, or whatever, and I don't see why there shouldn't be some love for someone who's completely devoted themselves to mastering a single weapon, regardless of whether it's simple, martial or exotic.