A few feat questions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A few feat questions. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Avatar of Kokusho
01-17-08, 12:49 PM You guys tend to be helpful, and I couldn't find the answers to these even by using the search function.

1). For the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class or anything else that requires them, do the sudden metamagic feats from the Complete Arcane count as their non-sudden counterparts?

2). Can a warmage with a sudden feat use that feat in conjunction with item creation, such as a scroll?

3). If you have Two-Weapon Spring Attack from the Tempest class, and you later take Bounding Assault and/or Rapid Blitz, does that allow for additional off-hand attacks as well?

Thanks in advance. :)
BronzeBeard
01-17-08, 01:06 PM 1. Sadly, no.
2. I think he can as I never read anything contradicting it.
3. Well... RAW says no because there is no connection between the two but IMHO it should.

Please keep in mind that when regarding RAW vs. RAI such in this questions of yours your GM has the final saying, always.
Merestil Haye
01-17-08, 01:44 PM You guys tend to be helpful, and I couldn't find the answers to these even by using the search function.

1). For the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class or anything else that requires them, do the sudden metamagic feats from the Complete Arcane count as their non-sudden counterparts?I think that would depend on the wording of the requirement. Assuming for the sake of argument that the requirement was for Empower Spell, if the requirement was worded "Able to Empower spells" then the answer would probably be yes. If it requires the feat itself, maybe not.

2). Can a warmage with a sudden feat use that feat in conjunction with item creation, such as a scroll?Yes.

The FAQ spells out that doing so means the use of the feat is expended, and that the item is created and priced as if the spell had been adjusted by the basic metamagic feat, including the increased spell level and minimum caster level for the increased spell level. This applies to all item creation by any character capable of doing so.

So, for example, an Empowered Magic Missile is scribed as a 3rd level spell with a minimum CL of 5, even if you are expending a first level spell slot and your use of the Sudden feat for the day. The character must be capable of casting spells at the increased CL.

3). If you have Two-Weapon Spring Attack from the Tempest class, and you later take Bounding Assault and/or Rapid Blitz, does that allow for additional off-hand attacks as well?Don't know off the top of my head. I'll read the feats and PrC and form an opinion. But that will have to wait.
Legdiwena
01-17-08, 01:49 PM I would say no on #1. Expeditious dodge specifically says it counts as dodge for prerequisites for other feats. Does sudden metamagic have similar language?
Merestil Haye
01-17-08, 04:12 PM On Tempests with Bounding Assault (and Rapid Blitz).

I can't see any reason why you should not be able to combine the two, and from a power level perspective I would be fine with it. I would insist that all penalties stack (so a Tempest wielding two 1-handed weapons and making a Bounding Assault gets -2 on the first attack with each weapon and -7 with the second).

It's just my innate conservatism screaming in my ear "No, no, that can't possibly work!" bothering me.

Anyone see what it is I'm missing? Or is it absolutely fine?
mplindustries
01-18-08, 04:45 AM Let me paraphrase the important aspects of the relevant abilities:

(well and quote spring attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) since I can do that)
"When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed."

Tempest's Two Weapon Spring Attack: you expand the effects of the "attack action" mentioned in Spring Attack, gaining an off-hand attack as well.

Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz: you expand the "attack action" gaining additional attacks

I also want to point out that Tempest's Spring Attack makes no mention of two-weapon fighting penalties.

So in the end, I'd say, if you have both Tempest 5, Bounding Assault, a +12 BAB and lets say +8 other hit bonuses from whatever, you would get 3 attacks, divided as you choose between two different chosen targets. The first would be +20 with your primary hand, the second also at +20 with your offhand, and the third at +15 with your primary hand. If you added in Rapid blitz, you'd get a total of four attacks.

You are still taking only one attack action, and both effects basically add extra attacks to that action. So yes, they stack, sort of. You do not get an extra offhand swing for every primary hand swing during a spring attack, you just get one extra.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Avatar of Kokusho 01-17-08, 12:49 PM	You guys tend to be helpful, and I couldn't find the answers to these even by using the search function. 1). For the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class or anything else that requires them, do the sudden metamagic feats from the Complete Arcane count as their non-sudden counterparts? 2). Can a warmage with a sudden feat use that feat in conjunction with item creation, such as a scroll? 3). If you have Two-Weapon Spring Attack from the Tempest class, and you later take Bounding Assault and/or Rapid Blitz, does that allow for additional off-hand attacks as well? Thanks in advance. :)
BronzeBeard 01-17-08, 01:06 PM	1. Sadly, no. 2. I think he can as I never read anything contradicting it. 3. Well... RAW says no because there is no connection between the two but IMHO it should. Please keep in mind that when regarding RAW vs. RAI such in this questions of yours your GM has the final saying, always.
Merestil Haye 01-17-08, 01:44 PM	You guys tend to be helpful, and I couldn't find the answers to these even by using the search function. 1). For the purposes of qualifying for a prestige class or anything else that requires them, do the sudden metamagic feats from the Complete Arcane count as their non-sudden counterparts?I think that would depend on the wording of the requirement. Assuming for the sake of argument that the requirement was for Empower Spell, if the requirement was worded "Able to Empower spells" then the answer would probably be yes. If it requires the feat itself, maybe not. 2). Can a warmage with a sudden feat use that feat in conjunction with item creation, such as a scroll?Yes. The FAQ spells out that doing so means the use of the feat is expended, and that the item is created and priced as if the spell had been adjusted by the basic metamagic feat, including the increased spell level and minimum caster level for the increased spell level. This applies to all item creation by any character capable of doing so. So, for example, an Empowered Magic Missile is scribed as a 3rd level spell with a minimum CL of 5, even if you are expending a first level spell slot and your use of the Sudden feat for the day. The character must be capable of casting spells at the increased CL. 3). If you have Two-Weapon Spring Attack from the Tempest class, and you later take Bounding Assault and/or Rapid Blitz, does that allow for additional off-hand attacks as well?Don't know off the top of my head. I'll read the feats and PrC and form an opinion. But that will have to wait.
Legdiwena 01-17-08, 01:49 PM	I would say no on #1. Expeditious dodge specifically says it counts as dodge for prerequisites for other feats. Does sudden metamagic have similar language?
Merestil Haye 01-17-08, 04:12 PM	On Tempests with Bounding Assault (and Rapid Blitz). I can't see any reason why you should not be able to combine the two, and from a power level perspective I would be fine with it. I would insist that all penalties stack (so a Tempest wielding two 1-handed weapons and making a Bounding Assault gets -2 on the first attack with each weapon and -7 with the second). It's just my innate conservatism screaming in my ear "No, no, that can't possibly work!" bothering me. Anyone see what it is I'm missing? Or is it absolutely fine?
mplindustries 01-18-08, 04:45 AM	Let me paraphrase the important aspects of the relevant abilities: (well and quote spring attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#springAttack) since I can do that) "When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed." Tempest's Two Weapon Spring Attack: you expand the effects of the "attack action" mentioned in Spring Attack, gaining an off-hand attack as well. Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz: you expand the "attack action" gaining additional attacks I also want to point out that Tempest's Spring Attack makes no mention of two-weapon fighting penalties. So in the end, I'd say, if you have both Tempest 5, Bounding Assault, a +12 BAB and lets say +8 other hit bonuses from whatever, you would get 3 attacks, divided as you choose between two different chosen targets. The first would be +20 with your primary hand, the second also at +20 with your offhand, and the third at +15 with your primary hand. If you added in Rapid blitz, you'd get a total of four attacks. You are still taking only one attack action, and both effects basically add extra attacks to that action. So yes, they stack, sort of. You do not get an extra offhand swing for every primary hand swing during a spring attack, you just get one extra.