A Knack for Knack (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Knack for Knack (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
angryscrub
07-03-07, 07:14 PM A KNACK FOR KNACK [General]

Prerequisite: Int 18, Bardic Knack Class Feature, Jack of All Trades OR Elf Dilettante

Benefit: Due to your wide array of experience, and your insightful understanding of the fundamental interconnectedness of all things, you are able to gain greater benefit than normal when using your bardic knack. You are treated as having a number of ranks in each skill equal to the bonus granted by your Bardic Knack class feature or the number of ranks you have in the skill, whichever is higher, for the purposes of synergy bonuses and special uses of the skill that are dependent upon ranks.

Normal: Bardic knack applies only when actually making a skill check.

**************************************** ***
i tried to make it as clear as possible, but i'll state my intent in case i failed. basically, anything that is dependent on skill rank that is actually mentioned in a skill description i want this to work on. like this from the balance skill:

...If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing...

so a 9th level bard with this feat would be able to benefit as if he actually had the five ranks in balance.

i don't want it to apply to anything that isn't specifically mentioned in a skill description or skill section.

i don't THINK this is broken, but if you do, please give me specifics on why, and don't just say that it is. i'm looking for feedback, not kneejerk reactions.
Polarbeast
07-03-07, 07:36 PM [...] and your insightful understanding of the fundamental interconnectedness of all things...
Do you have to wear a red hat and be named Dirk..? ;)

It seemed overpowered when I first read it, because if I understand it correctly, you basically gain +2 on nearly all skill checks, or at least the ones important to bards (Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.). Then I thought:

PROS: It costs only two feats.
CONS: It costs two feats.

At 9th level, I'm thinking that either that's two feats for your bard that might have been spent elsewhere, or your campaign makes healthy use of skill checks. So maybe it's fairly powerful... but it's also very constrained. I'm glad you make specific mention that it's meant for synergy boosts. I wish I had played more bards and could offer more experienced feedback.
angryscrub
07-03-07, 09:09 PM Do you have to wear a red hat and be named Dirk..? ;)

heh. if that's the case, you already have much cooler feats than this, i think.

It seemed overpowered when I first read it, because if I understand it correctly, you basically gain +2 on nearly all skill checks, or at least the ones important to bards (Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.).

well, yes, but remember, if you're building a diplomonster, you'll have those skills maxed out anyways, and they are opposed checks. at level 19, a bard not focused on diplomacy would have a +17-21 or so (+10 bardic knack, +2 synergy, +5-9 cha). good yes, against anyone but a real diplomonster, who will blow you out of the water. the +2 helps, but not enough against a true specialist, who will have it too, plus an extra 12 ranks over you. at 19th level, you'd be about as good as a 7th-8th level diplomacy specialist. this just makes the bard an even more valuable fifth party member.

Then I thought:

PROS: It costs only two feats.
CONS: It costs two feats.

At 9th level, I'm thinking that either that's two feats for your bard that might have been spent elsewhere, or your campaign makes healthy use of skill checks. So maybe it's fairly powerful... but it's also very constrained. I'm glad you make specific mention that it's meant for synergy boosts. I wish I had played more bards and could offer more experienced feedback.

well, i was considering adding another feat to the prereqs, but it already requires 18 int, which is only tangentially useful to the bard class (by which i mean it doesn't directly reinforce any of their class abilities, or even a saving throw). you'll basically be decent at almost anything skillwise, but those two feats will put you well behind a truly focused, "great", bard build.
Vaelan
07-03-07, 10:04 PM Move the flavor to a description and clean up the Benefit.

Benefit: You are treated as having a number of ranks in each skill equal to the bonus granted by your Bardic Knack class feature or the number of ranks you have in the skill, whichever is higher.

By excluding a "for the purposes of..." statement, you are effectively saying that you are treated as having the ranks for all purposes, so it would cover everything you're looking for without needing to clutter the description.
angryscrub
07-03-07, 11:17 PM By excluding a "for the purposes of..." statement, you are effectively saying that you are treated as having the ranks for all purposes, so it would cover everything you're looking for without needing to clutter the description.

hmm, well, i rather intentionally did not want it to qualify as ranks for all purposes, to try and make it more balanced. it's much easier to keep track of skill descriptions and balance against those, than it is to keep track of all feats, PrCs, skill tricks, magic items, and/or anything else that looks at skill ranks.

the only really new skill i can think of besides those in the PHB, is autohypnosis. complete adventurer has some expanded uses for skills, as do some of the other splat books. nothing really broken in them with my feat that i can see, and it still provides a nice benefit being limited to just that. and much easier to keep track of unexpected interactions.
Vaelan
07-04-07, 01:49 AM hmm, well, i rather intentionally did not want it to qualify as ranks for all purposes, to try and make it more balanced.
How did I miss that?

You know what would make writing this a lot easier? If the term "effects" weren't mangled to include feat prerequisites (see: Monk v. Improved Natural Attack).

I'd go with "for the purposes of synergy bonuses and special uses that are dependant upon ranks".

So...

Benefit: You are treated as having a number of ranks in each skill equal to the bonus granted by your Bardic Knack class feature or the number of ranks you have in the skill, whichever is higher, for the purposes of synergy bonuses and special uses that are dependant upon ranks.
angryscrub
07-04-07, 05:54 PM updated with vaelan's suggested changes. anyone have any more ideas, or thoughts on the power level?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
angryscrub 07-03-07, 07:14 PM	A KNACK FOR KNACK [General] Prerequisite: Int 18, Bardic Knack Class Feature, Jack of All Trades OR Elf Dilettante Benefit: Due to your wide array of experience, and your insightful understanding of the fundamental interconnectedness of all things, you are able to gain greater benefit than normal when using your bardic knack. You are treated as having a number of ranks in each skill equal to the bonus granted by your Bardic Knack class feature or the number of ranks you have in the skill, whichever is higher, for the purposes of synergy bonuses and special uses of the skill that are dependent upon ranks. Normal: Bardic knack applies only when actually making a skill check. ************************************** * i tried to make it as clear as possible, but i'll state my intent in case i failed. basically, anything that is dependent on skill rank that is actually mentioned in a skill description i want this to work on. like this from the balance skill: ...If you have 5 or more ranks in Balance, you aren’t considered flat-footed while balancing... so a 9th level bard with this feat would be able to benefit as if he actually had the five ranks in balance. i don't want it to apply to anything that isn't specifically mentioned in a skill description or skill section. i don't THINK this is broken, but if you do, please give me specifics on why, and don't just say that it is. i'm looking for feedback, not kneejerk reactions.
Polarbeast 07-03-07, 07:36 PM	[...] and your insightful understanding of the fundamental interconnectedness of all things... Do you have to wear a red hat and be named Dirk..? ;) It seemed overpowered when I first read it, because if I understand it correctly, you basically gain +2 on nearly all skill checks, or at least the ones important to bards (Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.). Then I thought: PROS: It costs only two feats. CONS: It costs two feats. At 9th level, I'm thinking that either that's two feats for your bard that might have been spent elsewhere, or your campaign makes healthy use of skill checks. So maybe it's fairly powerful... but it's also very constrained. I'm glad you make specific mention that it's meant for synergy boosts. I wish I had played more bards and could offer more experienced feedback.
angryscrub 07-03-07, 09:09 PM	Do you have to wear a red hat and be named Dirk..? ;) heh. if that's the case, you already have much cooler feats than this, i think. It seemed overpowered when I first read it, because if I understand it correctly, you basically gain +2 on nearly all skill checks, or at least the ones important to bards (Bluff, Diplomacy, etc.). well, yes, but remember, if you're building a diplomonster, you'll have those skills maxed out anyways, and they are opposed checks. at level 19, a bard not focused on diplomacy would have a +17-21 or so (+10 bardic knack, +2 synergy, +5-9 cha). good yes, against anyone but a real diplomonster, who will blow you out of the water. the +2 helps, but not enough against a true specialist, who will have it too, plus an extra 12 ranks over you. at 19th level, you'd be about as good as a 7th-8th level diplomacy specialist. this just makes the bard an even more valuable fifth party member. Then I thought: PROS: It costs only two feats. CONS: It costs two feats. At 9th level, I'm thinking that either that's two feats for your bard that might have been spent elsewhere, or your campaign makes healthy use of skill checks. So maybe it's fairly powerful... but it's also very constrained. I'm glad you make specific mention that it's meant for synergy boosts. I wish I had played more bards and could offer more experienced feedback. well, i was considering adding another feat to the prereqs, but it already requires 18 int, which is only tangentially useful to the bard class (by which i mean it doesn't directly reinforce any of their class abilities, or even a saving throw). you'll basically be decent at almost anything skillwise, but those two feats will put you well behind a truly focused, "great", bard build.
Vaelan 07-03-07, 10:04 PM	Move the flavor to a description and clean up the Benefit. Benefit: You are treated as having a number of ranks in each skill equal to the bonus granted by your Bardic Knack class feature or the number of ranks you have in the skill, whichever is higher. By excluding a "for the purposes of..." statement, you are effectively saying that you are treated as having the ranks for all purposes, so it would cover everything you're looking for without needing to clutter the description.
angryscrub 07-03-07, 11:17 PM	By excluding a "for the purposes of..." statement, you are effectively saying that you are treated as having the ranks for all purposes, so it would cover everything you're looking for without needing to clutter the description. hmm, well, i rather intentionally did not want it to qualify as ranks for all purposes, to try and make it more balanced. it's much easier to keep track of skill descriptions and balance against those, than it is to keep track of all feats, PrCs, skill tricks, magic items, and/or anything else that looks at skill ranks. the only really new skill i can think of besides those in the PHB, is autohypnosis. complete adventurer has some expanded uses for skills, as do some of the other splat books. nothing really broken in them with my feat that i can see, and it still provides a nice benefit being limited to just that. and much easier to keep track of unexpected interactions.
Vaelan 07-04-07, 01:49 AM	hmm, well, i rather intentionally did not want it to qualify as ranks for all purposes, to try and make it more balanced. How did I miss that? You know what would make writing this a lot easier? If the term "effects" weren't mangled to include feat prerequisites (see: Monk v. Improved Natural Attack). I'd go with "for the purposes of synergy bonuses and special uses that are dependant upon ranks". So... Benefit: You are treated as having a number of ranks in each skill equal to the bonus granted by your Bardic Knack class feature or the number of ranks you have in the skill, whichever is higher, for the purposes of synergy bonuses and special uses that are dependant upon ranks.
angryscrub 07-04-07, 05:54 PM	updated with vaelan's suggested changes. anyone have any more ideas, or thoughts on the power level?