A radical but old idea. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A radical but old idea. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
NeueRegel
06-27-07, 08:07 PM Okay, first, We play 3.5 core rules, but we have been playing for 20 years, so since the old AD&D days.

One of my players that joins us exactly once a month today phoned me, and he was reminescing of the "good old days", and he was talking about a new idea based on an old premise: "That magic is anathema to the Barbarian class". Ie, no magic items, ever.

I know that idea will **** off alot of you new players, but, that's the way the character class was originally designed, believe it or not.

So anyway: We only had about 5 minutes or so to catch up, on the phone, he got called back to his job quickly, but what he did have time to ask me (I DM this game, mostly) was: "What would you think if I played a new character Barbarian with those constraints, of literally no magic, but played the Barbarian class as written with the feats/bonus feats of the fighter class?"

We literally had no more time to speak it over, so I'm throwing it out at you people for the fun of it. Keep in mind, that we mean this "the old way"; Any magic items he found, he would get xp for destroying, not keeping. Pure D&D, the way it used to be.

Would that be a fair balance/trade for the feat progression of a fighter mixed with the class skills of a barbarian, ya think?

Btw, I wasn't sure where to post this, either in class or feats, but since it was not a class question (old class), but a feat difference, I chose here.

Hit me.

Neue
dknight100
06-28-07, 12:16 AM To counteract the loss of magic items, i would say you at least need to give him all the fighter progression and the barbarian progression
Part-Human2
06-28-07, 01:36 AM I'd give the player more than just feats to make up the difference. Look up what the Forsaker PrC gets (MotW).
tarkin
06-28-07, 10:19 AM How hard is it to simply let him play a Barbarian with at least one level of Forsaker?

I mean, why make everything more complicated?
tui
06-28-07, 11:14 AM Or maybe a VoP Barbarian. :)

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone playing one, so maybe there's a mechanical reason a Barbarian can't take the VoP? Or is it just hard to imagine an Exalted Barbarian?
Werral
06-30-07, 06:24 PM VoP means you can't ahve wealth, this guy'd be happy wearing mithral armour and living in a fat mansion, it's magic he can't abide.

I'd say spell resistance at 10+Barb LV which cannot be switched off (so it protects against buffs too). I seem to remember that 1E barbarian's attacks counted as magical weapons for the purpose of affecting creatures. So for 3E I'd say

4th level attacks count as +1 weapons

8th level attacks count as +2

12th level attacks count as +3 and chaotic aligned

16th level attacks count as +4 and cold iron

20th attacks count as +5 and adamantite.

I'd also up the DR.

Bonus Feats:

1st Power Attack
2nd Endurance
4th Strong Will
6th Cleave
8th Improved Crit.

Other stuff: +1 to hit VS spellcasters.
Disrupt concetration - on a succesful intimidate check they can force a spell caster to make a Concentration check opposed to the Barbarians Intimidate or lose any spell they're casting.

Everything except the feats is lost while using a magic item or under the effect of a buff. They lose everything except the feats and std barbarian abilities if they take a level in a spellcasting class. They can receive cure spells though.

Would that work?
Salla
06-30-07, 06:34 PM It was a pain in the butt then, it's a pain in the butt now. :)
utilitarian
06-30-07, 06:42 PM It was a pain in the butt then, it's a pain in the butt now. :)

But not as much of a pain in the butt as.... Old druids!

"Alright guys, put the adventure on hold, I just went up a level, we need to go find and assasinate a more powerful druid so I can be level 7."
Werral
06-30-07, 06:57 PM It was a pain in the butt then, it's a pain in the butt now. :)

The OP wants to play it. Horses for courses.

But not as much of a pain in the butt as.... Old druids!

"Alright guys, put the adventure on hold, I just went up a level, we need to go find and assasinate a more powerful druid so I can be level 7."

Yeah that sucked.
NeueRegel
06-30-07, 11:08 PM Hey! We miss the old druids and monks being sole heirarchies!

It made being an archdruid and the Great Druid worth something. Knowing that "my character" is unique in the world, that there are only 2 others my equal, or there is none that is my equal. In the world. Anywhere.

That was real gaming. I miss Gary Gygax.

Not to say that 3.5 isn't a much better system in almost every respect, but only that it lost any true "flavour". It's become a gamut of everybody looking for the best build, the best items, (heck, DM doesn't give you exactly what artifact you want? Make it!)... Any race can be unlimited any class... Any silly mixes possible... Bleh.

But, hey, here I am, playing the game and enjoying it plenty, dispite the oatmeal aftertaste.

But it *did* used to mean something to play "His Holiness, the Pope"...

Just my take though.

Neue
Steevo
07-01-07, 02:17 AM Would that be a fair balance/trade for the feat progression of a fighter mixed with the class skills of a barbarian, ya think?

No way. Giving up magic items is a big sacrifice, but there's no way it balances against what is essentially a Gestalted character. Maybe gaining bonus feats after level 10 as a fighter, since that's around when magic items become important but not before that.
utilitarian
07-01-07, 01:22 PM Hey! We miss the old druids and monks being sole heirarchies!

It made being an archdruid and the Great Druid worth something. Knowing that "my character" is unique in the world, that there are only 2 others my equal, or there is none that is my equal. In the world. Anywhere.

That was real gaming. I miss Gary Gygax.

Not to say that 3.5 isn't a much better system in almost every respect, but only that it lost any true "flavour". It's become a gamut of everybody looking for the best build, the best items, (heck, DM doesn't give you exactly what artifact you want? Make it!)... Any race can be unlimited any class... Any silly mixes possible... Bleh.

But, hey, here I am, playing the game and enjoying it plenty, dispite the oatmeal aftertaste.

But it *did* used to mean something to play "His Holiness, the Pope"...

Just my take though.

Neue

3.5 is only missing flavour if your DM is missing flavour. You can still go out and kill druids to gain thier power Highlander style all you want, it just means that now the DM doesn't have to design the entire campaign around your character's ability to level. Plenty of people bemoan the insubstancial "flavour" lost from 2nd ed, but let's be honest, most of that flavour just got in the way of the game and a lot of it ended up being very heavily houseruled just to make it playable.

The bottom line is there can still Be Only One if you want, and you can still think that magic is evil, it's just that you no longer have to have the campaign tailored around you any longer. (Let's not forget, if you WERE playing a druid of any substancial power your DM would have to have been sending other druids after YOU to take YOUR power. I dunno about you, but my wizard got sick of it after the fourth druidic assasin showed up and started making things toasty.
Mentar
07-02-07, 04:06 AM Pull out your 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, where the barbarian is, and you may be surprised.

At low levels the barbarian can not use any magical item, and may attempt to break them for XP awards. (Although now they don't have XP awards listed, maybe crafting XP cost.)

I believe it starts at level 5 when a barbarian can use magic weapons, then later armor as well. That is all though, no rings of regeneration or protection, no amulets of natural armor, etc.

Another point for RP purposes is how will this barbarian react towards someone trying to cast healing magic on him? How about buffs? Will the party cleric pull back a bloody stump when he/she tries to keep the barbarian alive with a healing spell?

If you look for the old Dragon magazine, don't remember which one offhand, but it's on the 250 issues CD set, there is a barbarian shaman class. Listed as the only magic user a barbarian may trust, and even then full trust only comes if the shaman is from the same tribe as the barbarian in question, though a shaman from another tribe is much more trustworthy then a cleric or wizard, or even a paladin.

I might dig through my 1st edition books in storage and look up the class again, but if you have the book yourself you could easily grant bonus abilities on par with the old edition, in addition to the barbarian class for 3.5, to counteract the lack of magical items.
Mentar
07-02-07, 05:07 PM Ok, after trudging through the dungeons to my storage space I have the book in hand.
I hope it's not against the rules to post the way 1st edition classes worked.

Barbarian 11 levels listed, 8hd levels, +2hp each added level, no listed level cap and has exp for each level beyond 11.

Actions and abilities
lvl action
2 may associate freely with clerics
3 may use magic potions
4 may use magic weapons/may strike creatures only hit by +1 weapons/gains +1 saves vs spells
5 may use magic armor
6 may associate with magic users -- if necessary / may strike creatures only hit by +2 weapons
7 may use weapon-like misc magic items
8 may associate with magic users -- occasionally / may strike creatures only hit by +3 weapons
9 may use protection scrolls
10 may use most magic items available to fighters / may strike creatures only hit by +4 weapons

12 gains +3 on saves versus spells / may strike creatures only hit by +5 weapons

As we can see, even in 1st edition, barbarians lost their inability to use magic items as they advanced. There is the question, however, of how to get a low level mixed party working with the barbarian. The barbarian will not associate with (thus not adventure with) a wizard until level 6, then only when really needed, at level 8 the wizard could join the party but still only occasionally.

Other barbarian abilities include bonuses to climb, hide in nature, ambush tactics, uncanny dodge, jump, detecting illusions, detecting magic, and leadership.
Of course almost all 1st edition character classes had the ability to gather followers at 8-11th level.

Using nonmagical weapons of special materials was never against the rules for barbarians, thus that kind of ability would not be conferred.

If barbarians lost the ability to use magic items as they advanced I could see granting special abilities, but they actually gain the ability to use them. Maybe grant bonuses to all saves against magic and it's effects, but the 25% chance to detect magic by touch, and the 5% chance to detect illusions just by looking at them would make them more powerful then classes that have similar abilities.
NeueRegel
07-02-07, 07:12 PM Mentar, I don't want you to think for even a moment that your research went unnoticed. (And to the rest of you as well). I'm digesting it as we go, this will obviously be a new campaign. We think it will be "solo", just his barbarian and a druid, both celtic. (So yeah, some shaman magic allowed, both his characters, me DM'ing.)
Malcadon
07-02-07, 07:24 PM That is not an odd idea. D&D is a "High-Fantasy" game, but I like the hard-edge, hamfisted, low-magic of "Pulp" and "Sword & Sorcery" yarns.

I play a low-magic D&D game myself, but is geared around the Conan RPG (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=7) rules. It took me some work to convert, but I got a system that allows for players to survive without any +whatever junk or the need for spells (and the Ranger is no longer a prissy tree-hugger and NO Paladins!). The Conan system beefs-up the classes (even removing all but the Commoner as a NPC class), gives out more skills in the form of Background skills, allows the freedom to multi-class without punishing the player, and rewards players for keeping a favorite class with bonus feats at levels 1, 5 & 10.

One major flaw in D&D is that your power to hit and to be hit, goes up as you build levels, but not your ability to avoid it (yes, you got a Reflex save, but it next to worthess in defense). So, you MUST get gather magic armor & jewelery of defense to keep from getting killed at higher levels (the biggest jokes from D&D is the Ogre chieftain with a +1 club and +1 hide armor!). So I love Dodge/Parry defense bonuses from the Conan game (at high levels, your Barbarian fight well naked!).

I still use magic items, but they are often dark, queer and corrupting to the soul. You are lucky to get a helpful magic item at level 10! The most you can hope for is masterwork weapon. Is not to bad, without ANY healing spells you must think on your feet!

Wizard are making a new Star Wars D20 rulebook that can be converted to a steamlined low-magic D&D game. Grim Tales (by Bad Axe games (http://www.badaxegames.com/index.html)) is a Modern D20 rulebook with some useful rules for a low-magic, pulp game.
NeueRegel
07-02-07, 07:30 PM Malcadon, may I PM or IM you? I would like to know more. I hope I'm not outside of CoC here, but the system you are talking about sounds great.

My email is Windshear1967@fuse.net

Your call, the ball is yours.

NeueRegel aka Keith
Mentar
07-02-07, 07:39 PM I have used D20 modern for a low/no magic game in a fantasy setting. The class defense bonus really helps when you don't have magical means of defense available. Also the Urban Arcana book has an advanced class for what is basically a barbarian.
Sure, the game was made for guns and such, but you can use the classes/feats/skills in a D&D setting. It also helps with healing, as the treat injury skill from D20 modern can be used to regain hps.

You probably wouldn't want to allow surgery though, the ability to heal almost any wound with a down time of basically 1hour per point + surgery time makes characters a bit more reckless.
Malcadon
07-03-07, 09:27 PM Sorry Keith, I have no PM or IM. You (or any one) may contact me at: Zen_Darkstar@Yahoo.com (I will be happy to answer any questions you may have)

The Conan rulebook has some vary cool rules (even if it set me back $50, but well worth it!). I found a tread on D20 Design called 'Conan? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817725)', that ask about making Conan for D20. I had ALOT to say about Mongoose's Conan system.

If you read the tread, you will get a good understanding of the mechanics of the game and style of gaming.

If you want to get the book, you can buy it now or what for the 2ed edition coming out in August.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
NeueRegel 06-27-07, 08:07 PM	Okay, first, We play 3.5 core rules, but we have been playing for 20 years, so since the old AD&D days. One of my players that joins us exactly once a month today phoned me, and he was reminescing of the "good old days", and he was talking about a new idea based on an old premise: "That magic is anathema to the Barbarian class". Ie, no magic items, ever. I know that idea will **** off alot of you new players, but, that's the way the character class was originally designed, believe it or not. So anyway: We only had about 5 minutes or so to catch up, on the phone, he got called back to his job quickly, but what he did have time to ask me (I DM this game, mostly) was: "What would you think if I played a new character Barbarian with those constraints, of literally no magic, but played the Barbarian class as written with the feats/bonus feats of the fighter class?" We literally had no more time to speak it over, so I'm throwing it out at you people for the fun of it. Keep in mind, that we mean this "the old way"; Any magic items he found, he would get xp for destroying, not keeping. Pure D&D, the way it used to be. Would that be a fair balance/trade for the feat progression of a fighter mixed with the class skills of a barbarian, ya think? Btw, I wasn't sure where to post this, either in class or feats, but since it was not a class question (old class), but a feat difference, I chose here. Hit me. Neue
dknight100 06-28-07, 12:16 AM	To counteract the loss of magic items, i would say you at least need to give him all the fighter progression and the barbarian progression
Part-Human2 06-28-07, 01:36 AM	I'd give the player more than just feats to make up the difference. Look up what the Forsaker PrC gets (MotW).
tarkin 06-28-07, 10:19 AM	How hard is it to simply let him play a Barbarian with at least one level of Forsaker? I mean, why make everything more complicated?
tui 06-28-07, 11:14 AM	Or maybe a VoP Barbarian. :) I don't think I've ever heard of anyone playing one, so maybe there's a mechanical reason a Barbarian can't take the VoP? Or is it just hard to imagine an Exalted Barbarian?
Werral 06-30-07, 06:24 PM	VoP means you can't ahve wealth, this guy'd be happy wearing mithral armour and living in a fat mansion, it's magic he can't abide. I'd say spell resistance at 10+Barb LV which cannot be switched off (so it protects against buffs too). I seem to remember that 1E barbarian's attacks counted as magical weapons for the purpose of affecting creatures. So for 3E I'd say 4th level attacks count as +1 weapons 8th level attacks count as +2 12th level attacks count as +3 and chaotic aligned 16th level attacks count as +4 and cold iron 20th attacks count as +5 and adamantite. I'd also up the DR. Bonus Feats: 1st Power Attack 2nd Endurance 4th Strong Will 6th Cleave 8th Improved Crit. Other stuff: +1 to hit VS spellcasters. Disrupt concetration - on a succesful intimidate check they can force a spell caster to make a Concentration check opposed to the Barbarians Intimidate or lose any spell they're casting. Everything except the feats is lost while using a magic item or under the effect of a buff. They lose everything except the feats and std barbarian abilities if they take a level in a spellcasting class. They can receive cure spells though. Would that work?
Salla 06-30-07, 06:34 PM	It was a pain in the butt then, it's a pain in the butt now. :)
utilitarian 06-30-07, 06:42 PM	It was a pain in the butt then, it's a pain in the butt now. :) But not as much of a pain in the butt as.... Old druids! "Alright guys, put the adventure on hold, I just went up a level, we need to go find and assasinate a more powerful druid so I can be level 7."
Werral 06-30-07, 06:57 PM	It was a pain in the butt then, it's a pain in the butt now. :) The OP wants to play it. Horses for courses. But not as much of a pain in the butt as.... Old druids! "Alright guys, put the adventure on hold, I just went up a level, we need to go find and assasinate a more powerful druid so I can be level 7." Yeah that sucked.
NeueRegel 06-30-07, 11:08 PM	Hey! We miss the old druids and monks being sole heirarchies! It made being an archdruid and the Great Druid worth something. Knowing that "my character" is unique in the world, that there are only 2 others my equal, or there is none that is my equal. In the world. Anywhere. That was real gaming. I miss Gary Gygax. Not to say that 3.5 isn't a much better system in almost every respect, but only that it lost any true "flavour". It's become a gamut of everybody looking for the best build, the best items, (heck, DM doesn't give you exactly what artifact you want? Make it!)... Any race can be unlimited any class... Any silly mixes possible... Bleh. But, hey, here I am, playing the game and enjoying it plenty, dispite the oatmeal aftertaste. But it did used to mean something to play "His Holiness, the Pope"... Just my take though. Neue
Steevo 07-01-07, 02:17 AM	Would that be a fair balance/trade for the feat progression of a fighter mixed with the class skills of a barbarian, ya think? No way. Giving up magic items is a big sacrifice, but there's no way it balances against what is essentially a Gestalted character. Maybe gaining bonus feats after level 10 as a fighter, since that's around when magic items become important but not before that.
utilitarian 07-01-07, 01:22 PM	Hey! We miss the old druids and monks being sole heirarchies! It made being an archdruid and the Great Druid worth something. Knowing that "my character" is unique in the world, that there are only 2 others my equal, or there is none that is my equal. In the world. Anywhere. That was real gaming. I miss Gary Gygax. Not to say that 3.5 isn't a much better system in almost every respect, but only that it lost any true "flavour". It's become a gamut of everybody looking for the best build, the best items, (heck, DM doesn't give you exactly what artifact you want? Make it!)... Any race can be unlimited any class... Any silly mixes possible... Bleh. But, hey, here I am, playing the game and enjoying it plenty, dispite the oatmeal aftertaste. But it did used to mean something to play "His Holiness, the Pope"... Just my take though. Neue 3.5 is only missing flavour if your DM is missing flavour. You can still go out and kill druids to gain thier power Highlander style all you want, it just means that now the DM doesn't have to design the entire campaign around your character's ability to level. Plenty of people bemoan the insubstancial "flavour" lost from 2nd ed, but let's be honest, most of that flavour just got in the way of the game and a lot of it ended up being very heavily houseruled just to make it playable. The bottom line is there can still Be Only One if you want, and you can still think that magic is evil, it's just that you no longer have to have the campaign tailored around you any longer. (Let's not forget, if you WERE playing a druid of any substancial power your DM would have to have been sending other druids after YOU to take YOUR power. I dunno about you, but my wizard got sick of it after the fourth druidic assasin showed up and started making things toasty.
Mentar 07-02-07, 04:06 AM	Pull out your 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, where the barbarian is, and you may be surprised. At low levels the barbarian can not use any magical item, and may attempt to break them for XP awards. (Although now they don't have XP awards listed, maybe crafting XP cost.) I believe it starts at level 5 when a barbarian can use magic weapons, then later armor as well. That is all though, no rings of regeneration or protection, no amulets of natural armor, etc. Another point for RP purposes is how will this barbarian react towards someone trying to cast healing magic on him? How about buffs? Will the party cleric pull back a bloody stump when he/she tries to keep the barbarian alive with a healing spell? If you look for the old Dragon magazine, don't remember which one offhand, but it's on the 250 issues CD set, there is a barbarian shaman class. Listed as the only magic user a barbarian may trust, and even then full trust only comes if the shaman is from the same tribe as the barbarian in question, though a shaman from another tribe is much more trustworthy then a cleric or wizard, or even a paladin. I might dig through my 1st edition books in storage and look up the class again, but if you have the book yourself you could easily grant bonus abilities on par with the old edition, in addition to the barbarian class for 3.5, to counteract the lack of magical items.
Mentar 07-02-07, 05:07 PM	Ok, after trudging through the dungeons to my storage space I have the book in hand. I hope it's not against the rules to post the way 1st edition classes worked. Barbarian 11 levels listed, 8hd levels, +2hp each added level, no listed level cap and has exp for each level beyond 11. Actions and abilities lvl action 2 may associate freely with clerics 3 may use magic potions 4 may use magic weapons/may strike creatures only hit by +1 weapons/gains +1 saves vs spells 5 may use magic armor 6 may associate with magic users -- if necessary / may strike creatures only hit by +2 weapons 7 may use weapon-like misc magic items 8 may associate with magic users -- occasionally / may strike creatures only hit by +3 weapons 9 may use protection scrolls 10 may use most magic items available to fighters / may strike creatures only hit by +4 weapons 12 gains +3 on saves versus spells / may strike creatures only hit by +5 weapons As we can see, even in 1st edition, barbarians lost their inability to use magic items as they advanced. There is the question, however, of how to get a low level mixed party working with the barbarian. The barbarian will not associate with (thus not adventure with) a wizard until level 6, then only when really needed, at level 8 the wizard could join the party but still only occasionally. Other barbarian abilities include bonuses to climb, hide in nature, ambush tactics, uncanny dodge, jump, detecting illusions, detecting magic, and leadership. Of course almost all 1st edition character classes had the ability to gather followers at 8-11th level. Using nonmagical weapons of special materials was never against the rules for barbarians, thus that kind of ability would not be conferred. If barbarians lost the ability to use magic items as they advanced I could see granting special abilities, but they actually gain the ability to use them. Maybe grant bonuses to all saves against magic and it's effects, but the 25% chance to detect magic by touch, and the 5% chance to detect illusions just by looking at them would make them more powerful then classes that have similar abilities.
NeueRegel 07-02-07, 07:12 PM	Mentar, I don't want you to think for even a moment that your research went unnoticed. (And to the rest of you as well). I'm digesting it as we go, this will obviously be a new campaign. We think it will be "solo", just his barbarian and a druid, both celtic. (So yeah, some shaman magic allowed, both his characters, me DM'ing.)
Malcadon 07-02-07, 07:24 PM	That is not an odd idea. D&D is a "High-Fantasy" game, but I like the hard-edge, hamfisted, low-magic of "Pulp" and "Sword & Sorcery" yarns. I play a low-magic D&D game myself, but is geared around the Conan RPG (http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=7) rules. It took me some work to convert, but I got a system that allows for players to survive without any +whatever junk or the need for spells (and the Ranger is no longer a prissy tree-hugger and NO Paladins!). The Conan system beefs-up the classes (even removing all but the Commoner as a NPC class), gives out more skills in the form of Background skills, allows the freedom to multi-class without punishing the player, and rewards players for keeping a favorite class with bonus feats at levels 1, 5 & 10. One major flaw in D&D is that your power to hit and to be hit, goes up as you build levels, but not your ability to avoid it (yes, you got a Reflex save, but it next to worthess in defense). So, you MUST get gather magic armor & jewelery of defense to keep from getting killed at higher levels (the biggest jokes from D&D is the Ogre chieftain with a +1 club and +1 hide armor!). So I love Dodge/Parry defense bonuses from the Conan game (at high levels, your Barbarian fight well naked!). I still use magic items, but they are often dark, queer and corrupting to the soul. You are lucky to get a helpful magic item at level 10! The most you can hope for is masterwork weapon. Is not to bad, without ANY healing spells you must think on your feet! Wizard are making a new Star Wars D20 rulebook that can be converted to a steamlined low-magic D&D game. Grim Tales (by Bad Axe games (http://www.badaxegames.com/index.html)) is a Modern D20 rulebook with some useful rules for a low-magic, pulp game.
NeueRegel 07-02-07, 07:30 PM	Malcadon, may I PM or IM you? I would like to know more. I hope I'm not outside of CoC here, but the system you are talking about sounds great. My email is Windshear1967@fuse.net Your call, the ball is yours. NeueRegel aka Keith
Mentar 07-02-07, 07:39 PM	I have used D20 modern for a low/no magic game in a fantasy setting. The class defense bonus really helps when you don't have magical means of defense available. Also the Urban Arcana book has an advanced class for what is basically a barbarian. Sure, the game was made for guns and such, but you can use the classes/feats/skills in a D&D setting. It also helps with healing, as the treat injury skill from D20 modern can be used to regain hps. You probably wouldn't want to allow surgery though, the ability to heal almost any wound with a down time of basically 1hour per point + surgery time makes characters a bit more reckless.
Malcadon 07-03-07, 09:27 PM	Sorry Keith, I have no PM or IM. You (or any one) may contact me at: Zen_Darkstar@Yahoo.com (I will be happy to answer any questions you may have) The Conan rulebook has some vary cool rules (even if it set me back $50, but well worth it!). I found a tread on D20 Design called 'Conan? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=817725)', that ask about making Conan for D20. I had ALOT to say about Mongoose's Conan system. If you read the tread, you will get a good understanding of the mechanics of the game and style of gaming. If you want to get the book, you can buy it now or what for the 2ed edition coming out in August.