Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Schiz 06-07-07, 09:34 AM	when i create characters i always create the first 4 lvls on paper so i can better understand how my character should be roleplayed. by knowing he's going to multiclass on lvl 3 or 4 i prepare that by already roleplaying certain aspects. at the moment i'm making a character who starts with rogue and at lvl 4 becomes a beguiler. the reason for this multiclassing is purely roleplay based. at lvl 1 i already get 3 feats (1 +1(human) +1(flaw)) and those are skill focus(bluff), combat expertice and improved feint. this will improve some combat capabilities and also suit the characters lifestyle. at lvl3 i need to select another feat and i don't know what to choose. i don't want to select a +skills feat. now i know that i could choose a feat that would help me as a beguiler but i'm not a beguiler yet. so no spell focus of combat casting. anyone have an idea what kind of feats would be handy for a beguiler and isn't to weird to choose being a rogue?
Nephlite 06-07-07, 12:09 PM	when i create characters i always create the first 4 lvls on paper so i can better understand how my character should be roleplayed. by knowing he's going to multiclass on lvl 3 or 4 i prepare that by already roleplaying certain aspects. at the moment i'm making a character who starts with rogue and at lvl 4 becomes a beguiler. the reason for this multiclassing is purely roleplay based. at lvl 1 i already get 3 feats (1 +1(human) +1(flaw)) and those are skill focus(bluff), combat expertice and improved feint. this will improve some combat capabilities and also suit the characters lifestyle. at lvl3 i need to select another feat and i don't know what to choose. i don't want to select a +skills feat. now i know that i could choose a feat that would help me as a beguiler but i'm not a beguiler yet. so no spell focus of combat casting. anyone have an idea what kind of feats would be handy for a beguiler and isn't to weird to choose being a rogue? 1. Skill Focus: Concentration (you like to concentrate better when searching for traps). Plus, works all the time for casting unlike combat casting... 2. Improved Init: going first is fundamental for sneak attack (and cloaked casting since need to deny dex). 3. Practiced spellcaster Beguiler? (you'd need one more non-beguiler level though). Maybe you were working toward becoming one and so worked hard at overcoming late entry in life? Better to take this at 6th level actually.
RadicalTaoist 06-07-07, 12:33 PM	Tactile Trapsmith from Complete Adventurer (excelllent book for beguilers just for the feats and PrCs). Make Search and Disable Device checks blind, use Int in place of Dex on Disable Device and Open Lock checks if better. IIRC, that is.
bob_the_great 06-07-07, 07:50 PM	why even bother with the multiclass? the only difference between rogue and beguiler is that sneak attack is traded for spellcasting. any sneak attack attained from the rogue levels is useless to a beguiler, and the lost spellcasting really hurts. why not just play the beguiler class from the beginning but not fully utilize it? you can choose to ignore the spellcasting until level 3 or 4, when the character discovers the ability. you can even work it in over a few levels, where you start casting like a level 2 beguiler at 4, a level 4 beguiler at 5, and at level 6 finally achieving your full spellcasting. at level 10 you won't be paying for a costly multiclass in the early levels. the multiclass alone is silly, and the fact you're having this issue with feat selection should be a punch in the face telling you so. not only are you losing caster levels and mixing two classes that synergize poorly, you're also forced to take suboptimal feats. you've designed an awful character and it's unnecessary. Even if there was much of a difference between rogue and beguiler (which there isn't), roleplay reasons should never force you to design a crappy character. class flavor is not set in stone. barbarians do not have to take ranks in survival and live outdoors. wizards don't have to be boring and calculating. swashbucklers don't have to be dashing and charismatic. a hexblade does not have to dress in black and brood (I have an awesome fey hexblade concept in mind). to answer your question though, improved initiative is always a great feat and helps both classes. great fortitude or dodge are crummier feats which will help both.
teclis 06-07-07, 10:38 PM	wow, way to bash his character idea. Did you stop to think that combat might not be the focus of the campeign? maybe he's taking rogue levels mainly for the skill points? Or maybe he just wanted a crappy character. I once played a sorcerer intent on hiding his use of magic from the world. I did all sorts of wonky stuff, most of which was pretty useless in combat. as for feats: I second improved initiative. skill focus: UMD could also be good.
runestar 06-08-07, 12:53 AM	Since he is human, he can take the able learner feat, essentially adding all the rogue skills to his beguiler's class skill list. Do beguilers add trapfinding? If not, this would be a very good use of a multiclass option.:)
Kouk 06-08-07, 01:01 AM	Rogue and Beguiler skills are almost identical really. I would go with a general-purpose feat such as Improved Initiative (good for getting first round sneak attacks amongst other things) or Weapon Finesse, assuming you will have significantly more Dex than Str or even Weapon Focus to offset the penalties from Combat Expertise a bit, Weap. Finesse also works on touch attack from touch spells. Maybe Point Blank Shot can help with your ranged attacks, including any spells which happen to require ranged touch attacks (I am not all that up on the Beguiler spell list btw). You should be able to fight somewhat I would think, regardless of the character concept.
wizarddog 06-08-07, 01:05 AM	What about a Ranger/Beguiler? Skill points remain pretty high and the Hide and move silent skills can be maximized. You will also gain the combat orientation of the ranger. If your really crazy even a scout might prove useful. ;)
Nicholas the Paladin 06-08-07, 02:49 AM	improved init really works for both classes. I don't agree with te statement that feats for rogues and beguilers are almost identical. That's nonsense. The beguiler really needs to boost his save DC's since most of his spells are save or die (but it doens't do your rogue any good). Improved feint is somewhat usefull for both. But I'm playing a Beguiler right now and going the improved feint way to gain cloaked casting is sub-par (be invisible or hidden instead) and risky (since you need to be in melee). point blank shot and weapon finesse are worthless for the beguiler, since he has no ranged touch spells....sorry. i would go for improved init
Schiz 06-08-07, 05:22 AM	roleplay reasons should never force you to design a crappy character. i fully agree, it should be my choice to make a crappy character.... which it is. i don't build characters in the most efficient way, i create them through, what i believe is, the logical order of this personalities lifestyle. yes, he really lost some good skills there. i don't know why my character choose this crappy order of classes. he should have gone to the beguiler school at the beginning of his life and at anatomy lessons he should have closed his ears to deny the lessons of sneak attack. he should have stopped himself learning at a certain degree and not learn that little extra...... ****!! he is so dumb.. i'll tell him as soon as i see him. the world i play in is not really combat based. when i played a different campaign with this DM about 10 months ago.. we played 3 10 hour sessions and i think we had 2 combat moments in total... i do wanna thank the bashing a bit because it makes me think to see if i can improve a bit on his personal development but i can't seem to find a better way to do it. i was thinking of bard lvls but i just don't like the bardic music thingy.. anyways: thx for the replies till now. i see that improved init is recommended but do i really need it for the sneak attack as i have improved feint and a bluff of +10 on lvl1? and i'll take Practiced spellcaster at lvl6 to boost my DC back to standards. oh, btw.. for the people who would like to read the story so they can better understand what direction i want to go: Word Doc (http://giedre.schiz.nl/Mickeys_Story2.doc)
Kouk 06-08-07, 05:43 AM	I don't agree with te statement that feats for rogues and beguilers are almost identical. That's nonsense. Me? I said the skills were almost identical, as in class skills.
bob_the_great 06-08-07, 09:42 AM	hey it wasn't meant to be bashing, and I'm sorry if it came off that way. the character just screams "stormwind fallacy" to me. playing a crappy character doesn't make you a good roleplayer, and playing a good character doesn't make me a bad one. I guess my point was, what's the difference between his first 3 levels being beguiler and rogue? I cannot really think of any rogue background that can't be accomplished through beguiler levels. I'm curious what the character's background is, and why you wouldn't just go the easy route and single-class things as beguiler. a lifestyle/personality/alignment/whatever shift doesn't necessitate a class change. I guess as long as the other players don't mind not being able to handle CR-appropriate encounters then there's no problem. I was just pointing out that the multiclass is especially egregious because the two classes synergize poorly and have basically the same flavor (making it wholy unnecessary from a flavor standpoint). The only real difference between making a rogue 3 / beguiler X and a beguiler X is that the latter is much better.
chromeraven 06-08-07, 08:26 PM	i kinda agree with Bob there... given that background, I would play a Beguiler rather than rogue/beguiler. You lose out on sneak attack, 2 skill points/level, evasion, and trap sense, but you gain much better ways of tricking people, all the same essential skills, full spellcasting, and mechanics that scream "Do what i want!" to go with your backstory. however, if you absolutely must have the mundane start for something, I'd go quick reconnoiter if you're getting spot/listen, tactile trapsmith if you're trapspringer, or improved initiative.