about knowledge(local) [Archive] - Wizards Community

about knowledge(local) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Nebula
10-06-07, 11:38 AM should the knowledge(local) skill be more specialized, telling a region, a country or whatever o it works to know information of everywhere?
1 ton ghost
10-06-07, 02:38 PM i'm of the opinion no, unless they have Education (feat) or something simliar to explain it. these are pseudo rennaissance fantasy and the dissemination of that type of specific intel isn't easilly explained away. that is, only certain castes would know outside their own lands. most citizens were ignorant save those that were well traveled.

in my Faerun campaigns, i allow ALL PCs to take Knowledge Local as a Class Skill, but only from their home region under the pretext for example, "i've lived in ohio a long time, i should be entitled to know where the Hell King's Island and Cedar Point are." someone from Arizona wouldn't know that, but they could give me specifics on the Grand Canyon, something i know nothing of.
Kusari_Gamer
10-06-07, 03:16 PM I understand what you're saying. Knowledge (local) can be abused sometimes, but it is the responsibility of the DM to keep abuse in check. You don't have to tell him everything about an NPC. You can say,"You know a guy who knows a guy you might be looking for". Point them in the right direction without giving the character the NPC's tunic size.

The problem with limiting it to a particular city or region is that you turn a really good skill into one that is pretty much not worth having.

I mean, really...are any of the other Knowledge skills limited by region? Why hurt the rogue when the wizard can tell you about anything magical everywhere?
Kouk
10-06-07, 11:56 PM The Knowledge(Local) skill is divided by region in the Forgotten Realms by default, which works fine -- unless your party travels a lot.

If the party stays within a single region it is fine, but if your party travels a lot, just crossing into a neighboring country could mean your mind suddenly "goes blank" about local matters. It just isn't worth it in my opinion to divide Knowledge(Local) by region, because then players won't take many ranks in any particular region, and end up maybe knowing a little bit about everywhere but not enough to actually make the DCs required to learn meaningful information.

Some people may argue that it is more "logical" to divide Knowledge(Local) by region, but couldn't you make the same exact argument about every single other Knowledge check? Why should we single out Knowledge(Local) to function "realistically"? Knowledge (Nature) applies to the entire world, (Arcana) applies to all things that ever were or will be related to magic, Religion applies to every single god and every obscure religious rite and every single undead creature in existence, and somehow Knowledge(The Planes) can tell you something about any of the infinite planes that may or may not exist.

Characters don't have to choose a specific region to apply their Knowledge(Geography) to, they don't have to choose a particular time period for their Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering), and they know the entire world's history with a good Knowledge (History) check.

It is just unfair to single out Knowledge (Local), and detrimental to the game if nobody trains enough Knowledge(Local) to get any use out of it.
1 ton ghost
10-07-07, 01:41 PM you raise a very good point about region breakdown and rank distribution. that and Faerun is pretty damn big.
surely a comfortable median can be met.
perhaps surrounding areas (border region) are applicable depending on size and so forth, but the DCs higher as familiarity w/ said land is more distant.

you could almost graph it. farther out from your claimed home region, the harder the roll.
Kouk
10-07-07, 05:57 PM you raise a very good point about region breakdown and rank distribution. that and Faerun is pretty damn big.
surely a comfortable median can be met.
perhaps surrounding areas (border region) are applicable depending on size and so forth, but the DCs higher as familiarity w/ said land is more distant.

you could almost graph it. farther out from your claimed home region, the harder the roll.

You could do that, but this adds more complexity which is very likely never going to come up. As before though, why not also apply this same curve to every other Skill in the book?

Eberron's setting is almost as big as Faerun's (I read that once, I'm not going to try to calculate) but as far as I recall that setting does not impose the limits on Knowledge(Local). I don't think any other setting does/did either, but I haven't played them all.

I think it was just a well-meaning but ultimately bad rules change to separate all Knowledge(Local) by region. Even if the regions do encompass a huge amount of land, what checks is a player really going to make? Usually to identify Humanoids, or learn a few local laws that are applicable to the situation at hand. I don't think the typical player is going to make Knowledge checks just to learn the background history of all the important NPCs in the region, or all the current events going on, or all the myths and legends that surround various forests or mountain ranges.

I believe that the "typical" player will just use it for identifying Humanoids, and for the odd question that pops into their heads based on the task at hand, like "Do I know if this town sells boats?" or, "Do I know what the reaction of the people will be if I start casting Fireballs in town?" or, "Do I know who the minister of finance is?", and all of these things can also be determined with a Gather Information check (which is not separated by region except for skill synergy).

If used in basically only this fashion, it is no different than any other Knowledge check. As such, even if there is a tremendous amount actually written about each region in the Forgotten Realms, players do not need all that information to play. If they don't need it, then they probably will never ask about it, or need to make Knowledge checks for it.

The issue about identifying Humanoids is also fairly large and complicated I think. Most sorts of Humanoids (I would venture most sorts of anything) can be found all across the entire setting. If you want to know what a Bugbear in front of you can do, but you have just entered a region in which you have no ranks in Knowledge (Local), does that mean you cannot identify what a Bugbear is, even if they existed in your own home region? What do you do about Humanoids that originally come from a certain region, but have since moved into a different region? Do you use the Knowledge(Local) applicable to their "home" region, or the region they are in now?

Knowledge(Nature) has none of these problems when dealing with Monstrous Humanoids or Giants (basically most Giants are just big, dumb humanoids aren't they?) who may come from the far reaches of the world, or with animals who exist in only arctic regions, or even only specific forests that you've never been to or heard of.

I really don't think separating the Knowledge(Local) is worth it, if you do not also separate every other Knowledge skill in a similar way.
Nebula
10-09-07, 02:48 PM You could do that, but this adds more complexity which is very likely never going to come up.

maybe this is the very point.

dividing knowledge(local) into a lot of knowledge(local,region) wold be more realistic, but in the end it would make the game more farraginous and the skills system unbalanced.
AnonymousInternets
10-09-07, 05:08 PM Here's how I handle Knowlege (local):

Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Local) is itself divided up. Now, when you want to take Knowledge (Local), you must also define the region. The more specific the region, the more focused your knowledge is within that subject. For example, Knowledge (Local (North America)) could provide me with general knowledge of the continent and what’s in it, and Knowledge (Local (New York City)) would provide me the same amount of information, but it would all be about New York City, and thus be much more detailed and inclusive for that specific area (you could potentially get specific details on “New York City” with “North America” knowledge, but it would require higher DC’s). These examples could both be taken separately for both broad and specific knowledge on your area. For all characters, Knowledge (Local (Regions you live in or grew up in)) are considered class skills.

This way, you can make your local knowledge as broad or as specific as you like.
LordDewtain
10-09-07, 05:27 PM I see Knowledge(local) as Knowledge(tourist)

basically, if the information would be on a tourist broshure, you would know it.

Just got to Washington DC?
well did you know its the capital of america?
did you know it was named after our first president, who cut down cherry trees and killed a dragon?
did you know that our current president is Bush?
did you know we have three branches of government?

Of course you do, you have knowledge(local/tourist)

And if you go somewhere else, you know about that too. so if you go to arizona you get:
The grand canyon is the longest continuous canyon in north america.
It was cut by the colorado river
Arizona is mostly desert.
old people retire there to help with their athsma.

and so on.
Salla
10-09-07, 07:35 PM With skill points being a very limited resource, I'm generally against having to split Knowledge (Local) up into various regions. The DM should apply circumstance bonuses/penalties based on where the PCs have gone and been, both in-game and during their backgrounds.

If you split up KN: Local like that, odds are nobody will ever put any points into it (assuming anybody ever actually does).
taski
10-09-07, 10:49 PM In my game, when you're out of your home region, knowledge(local) acts as a source for generalizations and connections.

If you don't know the name of the local thieve's guild, you will know what districts thieve's guilds tend to be in, and where to start using gather info. However, you might know their name because they make black market deals with the thieve's guild in your home region. If you have really high ranks in know(local), you might even be able to guess exactly where to find them... "I know they smuggle jewels to my hometown's guild in barrels of sole fish marked with an image of a red fox, so I just have to go to the docks and find those barrels..."
BW0222
10-09-07, 10:57 PM Nebula,

Remember that countries in most campaigns aren't that big -- a few hundred miles across at the most. Thus, if you put out too many countries, provinces, large cities and restrict the skill to it, most folks couldn't function. I've seen it tried in Greyhawk, but the countries are way too small. You can travel through three or four in a few weeks.

You might try dividing your countries into larger areas. For example, Knowledge (Local: North Western Nations) or Knowledge (Local: South Eastern Nations). Living Greyhawk ended up using meta-regions for local. Arcanis divided it into countries, but some countries are huge.

Also, remember that anyone can attempt a knowledge check if the DC is 10 or more. Provided DMs keep the DCs reasonable, getting around in a city (even one not in a country you know about) should be fairly easy taking a 10.
Puca
10-10-07, 09:37 AM in my Faerun campaigns, i allow ALL PCs to take Knowledge Local as a Class Skill, but only from their home region under the pretext for example, "i've lived in ohio a long time, i should be entitled to know where the Hell King's Island and Cedar Point are." someone from Arizona wouldn't know that, but they could give me specifics on the Grand Canyon, something i know nothing of.See, I set the DC for knowing something about your home town very low. Below 10, you dont need ranks to use the skill. You shouldnt have to have ranks in a skill to know your way to the town square.

For the record, I also dont limit the skill to a region. None of the others are so limited.

dividing knowledge(local) into a lot of knowledge(local,region) wold be more realistic, but in the end it would make the game more farraginous and the skills system unbalanced.It only makes it more realistic in regards to the name, Local. It is the name that is misleading. If it were Knowledge (anthropology) or something, I think there would be no question.

There is a natural overlap with Gather Information: I mean, for the question “Does this town sell boats” is the answer something the character knew, or something he learned? But I just dont think it matters too much. Besides, that explains the rationale for the synergy bonus.

The DM should apply circumstance bonuses/penalties based on where the PCs have gone and been, both in-game and during their backgrounds.
Adding bonuses/penalties to the checks amounts to the same thing I do (changing the DC based on the individual.) I mean, whether you add 2 to the roll or subtract 2 from the DC, the necessary die result is still the same.

The reason I like mine better is the “10 factor.” Untrained, you cant make a check with a DC over 10, no matter how much of a circumstance bonus you get. Knowing the name of your hometowns mayor should be a check any resident could make, regardless of having ranks. For an outsider, it should be more difficult, and for small obscure places or far away lands, require the skill ranks.

The DCs for the skill are based on really easy, basic, and really tough. When it comes to knowledge about laws and customs, people who live there and follow those laws and practice those customs are likely to find questions about them really easy.

Just my opinion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nebula 10-06-07, 11:38 AM	should the knowledge(local) skill be more specialized, telling a region, a country or whatever o it works to know information of everywhere?
1 ton ghost 10-06-07, 02:38 PM	i'm of the opinion no, unless they have Education (feat) or something simliar to explain it. these are pseudo rennaissance fantasy and the dissemination of that type of specific intel isn't easilly explained away. that is, only certain castes would know outside their own lands. most citizens were ignorant save those that were well traveled. in my Faerun campaigns, i allow ALL PCs to take Knowledge Local as a Class Skill, but only from their home region under the pretext for example, "i've lived in ohio a long time, i should be entitled to know where the Hell King's Island and Cedar Point are." someone from Arizona wouldn't know that, but they could give me specifics on the Grand Canyon, something i know nothing of.
Kusari_Gamer 10-06-07, 03:16 PM	I understand what you're saying. Knowledge (local) can be abused sometimes, but it is the responsibility of the DM to keep abuse in check. You don't have to tell him everything about an NPC. You can say,"You know a guy who knows a guy you might be looking for". Point them in the right direction without giving the character the NPC's tunic size. The problem with limiting it to a particular city or region is that you turn a really good skill into one that is pretty much not worth having. I mean, really...are any of the other Knowledge skills limited by region? Why hurt the rogue when the wizard can tell you about anything magical everywhere?
Kouk 10-06-07, 11:56 PM	The Knowledge(Local) skill is divided by region in the Forgotten Realms by default, which works fine -- unless your party travels a lot. If the party stays within a single region it is fine, but if your party travels a lot, just crossing into a neighboring country could mean your mind suddenly "goes blank" about local matters. It just isn't worth it in my opinion to divide Knowledge(Local) by region, because then players won't take many ranks in any particular region, and end up maybe knowing a little bit about everywhere but not enough to actually make the DCs required to learn meaningful information. Some people may argue that it is more "logical" to divide Knowledge(Local) by region, but couldn't you make the same exact argument about every single other Knowledge check? Why should we single out Knowledge(Local) to function "realistically"? Knowledge (Nature) applies to the entire world, (Arcana) applies to all things that ever were or will be related to magic, Religion applies to every single god and every obscure religious rite and every single undead creature in existence, and somehow Knowledge(The Planes) can tell you something about any of the infinite planes that may or may not exist. Characters don't have to choose a specific region to apply their Knowledge(Geography) to, they don't have to choose a particular time period for their Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering), and they know the entire world's history with a good Knowledge (History) check. It is just unfair to single out Knowledge (Local), and detrimental to the game if nobody trains enough Knowledge(Local) to get any use out of it.
1 ton ghost 10-07-07, 01:41 PM	you raise a very good point about region breakdown and rank distribution. that and Faerun is pretty damn big. surely a comfortable median can be met. perhaps surrounding areas (border region) are applicable depending on size and so forth, but the DCs higher as familiarity w/ said land is more distant. you could almost graph it. farther out from your claimed home region, the harder the roll.
Kouk 10-07-07, 05:57 PM	you raise a very good point about region breakdown and rank distribution. that and Faerun is pretty damn big. surely a comfortable median can be met. perhaps surrounding areas (border region) are applicable depending on size and so forth, but the DCs higher as familiarity w/ said land is more distant. you could almost graph it. farther out from your claimed home region, the harder the roll. You could do that, but this adds more complexity which is very likely never going to come up. As before though, why not also apply this same curve to every other Skill in the book? Eberron's setting is almost as big as Faerun's (I read that once, I'm not going to try to calculate) but as far as I recall that setting does not impose the limits on Knowledge(Local). I don't think any other setting does/did either, but I haven't played them all. I think it was just a well-meaning but ultimately bad rules change to separate all Knowledge(Local) by region. Even if the regions do encompass a huge amount of land, what checks is a player really going to make? Usually to identify Humanoids, or learn a few local laws that are applicable to the situation at hand. I don't think the typical player is going to make Knowledge checks just to learn the background history of all the important NPCs in the region, or all the current events going on, or all the myths and legends that surround various forests or mountain ranges. I believe that the "typical" player will just use it for identifying Humanoids, and for the odd question that pops into their heads based on the task at hand, like "Do I know if this town sells boats?" or, "Do I know what the reaction of the people will be if I start casting Fireballs in town?" or, "Do I know who the minister of finance is?", and all of these things can also be determined with a Gather Information check (which is not separated by region except for skill synergy). If used in basically only this fashion, it is no different than any other Knowledge check. As such, even if there is a tremendous amount actually written about each region in the Forgotten Realms, players do not need all that information to play. If they don't need it, then they probably will never ask about it, or need to make Knowledge checks for it. The issue about identifying Humanoids is also fairly large and complicated I think. Most sorts of Humanoids (I would venture most sorts of anything) can be found all across the entire setting. If you want to know what a Bugbear in front of you can do, but you have just entered a region in which you have no ranks in Knowledge (Local), does that mean you cannot identify what a Bugbear is, even if they existed in your own home region? What do you do about Humanoids that originally come from a certain region, but have since moved into a different region? Do you use the Knowledge(Local) applicable to their "home" region, or the region they are in now? Knowledge(Nature) has none of these problems when dealing with Monstrous Humanoids or Giants (basically most Giants are just big, dumb humanoids aren't they?) who may come from the far reaches of the world, or with animals who exist in only arctic regions, or even only specific forests that you've never been to or heard of. I really don't think separating the Knowledge(Local) is worth it, if you do not also separate every other Knowledge skill in a similar way.
Nebula 10-09-07, 02:48 PM	You could do that, but this adds more complexity which is very likely never going to come up. maybe this is the very point. dividing knowledge(local) into a lot of knowledge(local,region) wold be more realistic, but in the end it would make the game more farraginous and the skills system unbalanced.
AnonymousInternets 10-09-07, 05:08 PM	Here's how I handle Knowlege (local): Knowledge (Local) Knowledge (Local) is itself divided up. Now, when you want to take Knowledge (Local), you must also define the region. The more specific the region, the more focused your knowledge is within that subject. For example, Knowledge (Local (North America)) could provide me with general knowledge of the continent and what’s in it, and Knowledge (Local (New York City)) would provide me the same amount of information, but it would all be about New York City, and thus be much more detailed and inclusive for that specific area (you could potentially get specific details on “New York City” with “North America” knowledge, but it would require higher DC’s). These examples could both be taken separately for both broad and specific knowledge on your area. For all characters, Knowledge (Local (Regions you live in or grew up in)) are considered class skills. This way, you can make your local knowledge as broad or as specific as you like.
LordDewtain 10-09-07, 05:27 PM	I see Knowledge(local) as Knowledge(tourist) basically, if the information would be on a tourist broshure, you would know it. Just got to Washington DC? well did you know its the capital of america? did you know it was named after our first president, who cut down cherry trees and killed a dragon? did you know that our current president is Bush? did you know we have three branches of government? Of course you do, you have knowledge(local/tourist) And if you go somewhere else, you know about that too. so if you go to arizona you get: The grand canyon is the longest continuous canyon in north america. It was cut by the colorado river Arizona is mostly desert. old people retire there to help with their athsma. and so on.
Salla 10-09-07, 07:35 PM	With skill points being a very limited resource, I'm generally against having to split Knowledge (Local) up into various regions. The DM should apply circumstance bonuses/penalties based on where the PCs have gone and been, both in-game and during their backgrounds. If you split up KN: Local like that, odds are nobody will ever put any points into it (assuming anybody ever actually does).
taski 10-09-07, 10:49 PM	In my game, when you're out of your home region, knowledge(local) acts as a source for generalizations and connections. If you don't know the name of the local thieve's guild, you will know what districts thieve's guilds tend to be in, and where to start using gather info. However, you might know their name because they make black market deals with the thieve's guild in your home region. If you have really high ranks in know(local), you might even be able to guess exactly where to find them... "I know they smuggle jewels to my hometown's guild in barrels of sole fish marked with an image of a red fox, so I just have to go to the docks and find those barrels..."
BW0222 10-09-07, 10:57 PM	Nebula, Remember that countries in most campaigns aren't that big -- a few hundred miles across at the most. Thus, if you put out too many countries, provinces, large cities and restrict the skill to it, most folks couldn't function. I've seen it tried in Greyhawk, but the countries are way too small. You can travel through three or four in a few weeks. You might try dividing your countries into larger areas. For example, Knowledge (Local: North Western Nations) or Knowledge (Local: South Eastern Nations). Living Greyhawk ended up using meta-regions for local. Arcanis divided it into countries, but some countries are huge. Also, remember that anyone can attempt a knowledge check if the DC is 10 or more. Provided DMs keep the DCs reasonable, getting around in a city (even one not in a country you know about) should be fairly easy taking a 10.
Puca 10-10-07, 09:37 AM	in my Faerun campaigns, i allow ALL PCs to take Knowledge Local as a Class Skill, but only from their home region under the pretext for example, "i've lived in ohio a long time, i should be entitled to know where the Hell King's Island and Cedar Point are." someone from Arizona wouldn't know that, but they could give me specifics on the Grand Canyon, something i know nothing of.See, I set the DC for knowing something about your home town very low. Below 10, you dont need ranks to use the skill. You shouldnt have to have ranks in a skill to know your way to the town square. For the record, I also dont limit the skill to a region. None of the others are so limited. dividing knowledge(local) into a lot of knowledge(local,region) wold be more realistic, but in the end it would make the game more farraginous and the skills system unbalanced.It only makes it more realistic in regards to the name, Local. It is the name that is misleading. If it were Knowledge (anthropology) or something, I think there would be no question. There is a natural overlap with Gather Information: I mean, for the question “Does this town sell boats” is the answer something the character knew, or something he learned? But I just dont think it matters too much. Besides, that explains the rationale for the synergy bonus. The DM should apply circumstance bonuses/penalties based on where the PCs have gone and been, both in-game and during their backgrounds. Adding bonuses/penalties to the checks amounts to the same thing I do (changing the DC based on the individual.) I mean, whether you add 2 to the roll or subtract 2 from the DC, the necessary die result is still the same. The reason I like mine better is the “10 factor.” Untrained, you cant make a check with a DC over 10, no matter how much of a circumstance bonus you get. Knowing the name of your hometowns mayor should be a check any resident could make, regardless of having ranks. For an outsider, it should be more difficult, and for small obscure places or far away lands, require the skill ranks. The DCs for the skill are based on really easy, basic, and really tough. When it comes to knowledge about laws and customs, people who live there and follow those laws and practice those customs are likely to find questions about them really easy. Just my opinion.