Abrupt Jaunt Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abrupt Jaunt Question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Qrmzlpt
04-20-07, 04:03 PM Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but if it has I didn't see it...

Say you can teleport 10' as an immediate action (PHB2 Conjuration Specialist Wizard ability) and you want to use it to avoid attacks. When can and can't you use this ability to escape? Can you use it after an enemy has declared their attack against you? Can you use it after they make their attack roll? Can you use it after they make their damage roll? I'm having a hard time finding specifics about this.

Thanks!

Qrmzlpt
Puca
04-20-07, 04:28 PM I dont believe there are specifics.
Strictly speaking, you can initiate an immediate action at any time, as long as you are aware of the attack and not flatt-footed, so that means you could do it after an opponent begins his swing, but before it lands.

My opinion is that once the die has stopped rolling, the attack is completed. If you wait to see the result, you waited too long.

This still results in an automatic miss; you just cant wait to see if it would have missed anyway.

Even then, this is almost too good to be true. Way better than any of the other variants.
tarkin
04-20-07, 04:29 PM The above is wrong.

You can do something at any time before or after an action, not in the middle.

For example, you can not ready an action to step 5ft to the side after someone fires a bow but before it hits. Similarly, you could not teleport away after they start to attack but before they hit.

You can use a ready action (means you might as well do a Standard action, not an immediate) to do it just before they do their attack.

You can of course use your immediate action before they do theirs.

So what is the difference between doing something before they do their action and doing it in the middle?

The only difference is that if you claim to do it 'in the middle', then you are attempting to prevent them from changing their actions to compensate for yours. That is not possible. There is no way for you to do something so fast that they also can not change their action to something else.

If you teleport away after they take get ready to draw their bow, they are allowed to fire at someone else, they are NOT forced to fire at the spot you used to be in.

You can do your actions when you want, but you can not force them to waste their action doing nothing.
nastynate
04-20-07, 04:41 PM This is some personal interpretation here, so feel to rule differently in your own games; the rules on the matter are simply not clear enough for us to determine the answers to your questions without making our own rulings.

You can use abrupt jaunt pretty much at any point up until an attack is made against you. Attacks and damage take place simultaneously, so you can use abrupt jaunt when your opponent declares his attack, but you must use it before the outcome of the attack roll is determined. Once the result of the attack roll is determined, if you are hit successfully, there is no way to avoid the damage.

Area of effect (lets use AoE for short) effects are slightly different. If your abrupt jaunt ability can teleport you far enough away to escape an AoE effect, and you can see it coming (or detect it coming by any reasonable means), you have the option to use abrupt jaunt, but you must do so before damage is rolled. Once damage is rolled, you have resigned yourself to getting caught within the AoE effect and have to live (or die) with the consequences.

This has worked reasonably well in my game so far, and the conjurer among my players has no objections to my rulings.

-Peace-

EDIT

The only difference is that if you claim to do it 'in the middle', then you are attempting to prevent them from changing their actions to compensate for yours. That is not possible. There is no way for you to do something so fast that they also can not change their action to something else.

Attacks of opportunity can effectively interrupt and cancel actions out. If somebody tries to grapple you (without the improved grapple feat) and you kill them with an attack of opportunity, they do not then proceed to grapple you anyway.

Similarly, there are immediate action effects that effectively cancel out other character's actions, like stifle spell (PHB2) or manticore parry (ToB). It is rare to be sure, but not without precedent.
tarkin
04-20-07, 05:02 PM I never said it was impoosible to cancel or prevent someone from doing something. I said there is no way to act in the middle of an event.

The AoO you mentioned is a perfect example - they happen BEFORE the triggering event, not in the middle.

There are many ways to do things before someone else that will prevent them from doing it.

What I said was you can't do something in the middle of someone else's action because WoTC does not want to allow that particular method of cancelling someone else's action.

While there are many ways to cancel someone's action, that is not a method that is allowed.
camfael
04-20-07, 05:50 PM So what happens if Mr Fighter charges The Jaunty Mage, and the mage blips out of the way before the attack is rolled. Does Fighter reset to where he started the charge with a whole new action? Could he recharge the mage if the mage was still a valid charge target?
Puca
04-20-07, 06:44 PM Even if they are analogous and create a general rule, the language of special actions like readying an action might say that it is resolved “just before the action that triggers it,” but that doesnt stand up to the way such actions actually work.

I can ready an action until an opposing spellcaster begins casting, make an attack requiring a concentration check for taking damage while casting and all of this (apparently) happens before he actually begins to cast? How, precisely, can you make an attack after he starts, complete it before he finishes, and not have acted in the middle of this “event?”

Unfortunately, they way youve presented it and the conclusion youve reached results in some sort of weird “temporal displacement.”

I think your answer results in a more balanced conclusion, but you are citing already questionable language taken from specific special actions that even if they are analogous still dont result in anything conclusive enough to claim that you have discovered their intent on this.
Neutronium_Dragon
04-20-07, 07:37 PM Well, it's true that the triggered action resolves before the triggering action, but that doesn't mean that it begins first.

Essentially, the sequence is:

Triggering action begins.
Triggered action begins.
Triggered action resolves.
Triggering action resolves.

You might well have a third one in there if the triggered action triggers something else in turn. Essentially, they resolve in the opposite order that they were initiated in, but the previously-initiated actions aren't somehow undone or rolled back. (They may become obsolete, such as the attack which now completes against an empty space after the mage Jaunted away.)
SunTzuWarmaster
04-21-07, 09:57 AM We use the spell Stay the Hand as a good reference for immediate actions.

You cast the spell after the opponent attempts to attack you (he swings his sword), he then makes a Will save to see whether he can attack you. If he fails, he cannot attack (his hand is stayed), but he can try to hit something else at a -4 penalty (he was in mid-swing). If he succeeds, attack resolves normally.

For abrupt jaunt, we ruled that it works the same way. Opponent declares attack, mage teleports away, opponent can attempt a -4 attack somewhere else.

Charges are special, if the mage teleports away, the charge must still be in a straight line. If other characters are in that straight line, then there is no penalty to attack them. Otherwise, you are left with a confused barbarian.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Qrmzlpt 04-20-07, 04:03 PM	Sorry if this has been posted elsewhere, but if it has I didn't see it... Say you can teleport 10' as an immediate action (PHB2 Conjuration Specialist Wizard ability) and you want to use it to avoid attacks. When can and can't you use this ability to escape? Can you use it after an enemy has declared their attack against you? Can you use it after they make their attack roll? Can you use it after they make their damage roll? I'm having a hard time finding specifics about this. Thanks! Qrmzlpt
Puca 04-20-07, 04:28 PM	I dont believe there are specifics. Strictly speaking, you can initiate an immediate action at any time, as long as you are aware of the attack and not flatt-footed, so that means you could do it after an opponent begins his swing, but before it lands. My opinion is that once the die has stopped rolling, the attack is completed. If you wait to see the result, you waited too long. This still results in an automatic miss; you just cant wait to see if it would have missed anyway. Even then, this is almost too good to be true. Way better than any of the other variants.
tarkin 04-20-07, 04:29 PM	The above is wrong. You can do something at any time before or after an action, not in the middle. For example, you can not ready an action to step 5ft to the side after someone fires a bow but before it hits. Similarly, you could not teleport away after they start to attack but before they hit. You can use a ready action (means you might as well do a Standard action, not an immediate) to do it just before they do their attack. You can of course use your immediate action before they do theirs. So what is the difference between doing something before they do their action and doing it in the middle? The only difference is that if you claim to do it 'in the middle', then you are attempting to prevent them from changing their actions to compensate for yours. That is not possible. There is no way for you to do something so fast that they also can not change their action to something else. If you teleport away after they take get ready to draw their bow, they are allowed to fire at someone else, they are NOT forced to fire at the spot you used to be in. You can do your actions when you want, but you can not force them to waste their action doing nothing.
nastynate 04-20-07, 04:41 PM	This is some personal interpretation here, so feel to rule differently in your own games; the rules on the matter are simply not clear enough for us to determine the answers to your questions without making our own rulings. You can use abrupt jaunt pretty much at any point up until an attack is made against you. Attacks and damage take place simultaneously, so you can use abrupt jaunt when your opponent declares his attack, but you must use it before the outcome of the attack roll is determined. Once the result of the attack roll is determined, if you are hit successfully, there is no way to avoid the damage. Area of effect (lets use AoE for short) effects are slightly different. If your abrupt jaunt ability can teleport you far enough away to escape an AoE effect, and you can see it coming (or detect it coming by any reasonable means), you have the option to use abrupt jaunt, but you must do so before damage is rolled. Once damage is rolled, you have resigned yourself to getting caught within the AoE effect and have to live (or die) with the consequences. This has worked reasonably well in my game so far, and the conjurer among my players has no objections to my rulings. -Peace- EDIT The only difference is that if you claim to do it 'in the middle', then you are attempting to prevent them from changing their actions to compensate for yours. That is not possible. There is no way for you to do something so fast that they also can not change their action to something else. Attacks of opportunity can effectively interrupt and cancel actions out. If somebody tries to grapple you (without the improved grapple feat) and you kill them with an attack of opportunity, they do not then proceed to grapple you anyway. Similarly, there are immediate action effects that effectively cancel out other character's actions, like stifle spell (PHB2) or manticore parry (ToB). It is rare to be sure, but not without precedent.
tarkin 04-20-07, 05:02 PM	I never said it was impoosible to cancel or prevent someone from doing something. I said there is no way to act in the middle of an event. The AoO you mentioned is a perfect example - they happen BEFORE the triggering event, not in the middle. There are many ways to do things before someone else that will prevent them from doing it. What I said was you can't do something in the middle of someone else's action because WoTC does not want to allow that particular method of cancelling someone else's action. While there are many ways to cancel someone's action, that is not a method that is allowed.
camfael 04-20-07, 05:50 PM	So what happens if Mr Fighter charges The Jaunty Mage, and the mage blips out of the way before the attack is rolled. Does Fighter reset to where he started the charge with a whole new action? Could he recharge the mage if the mage was still a valid charge target?
Puca 04-20-07, 06:44 PM	Even if they are analogous and create a general rule, the language of special actions like readying an action might say that it is resolved “just before the action that triggers it,” but that doesnt stand up to the way such actions actually work. I can ready an action until an opposing spellcaster begins casting, make an attack requiring a concentration check for taking damage while casting and all of this (apparently) happens before he actually begins to cast? How, precisely, can you make an attack after he starts, complete it before he finishes, and not have acted in the middle of this “event?” Unfortunately, they way youve presented it and the conclusion youve reached results in some sort of weird “temporal displacement.” I think your answer results in a more balanced conclusion, but you are citing already questionable language taken from specific special actions that even if they are analogous still dont result in anything conclusive enough to claim that you have discovered their intent on this.
Neutronium_Dragon 04-20-07, 07:37 PM	Well, it's true that the triggered action resolves before the triggering action, but that doesn't mean that it begins first. Essentially, the sequence is: Triggering action begins. Triggered action begins. Triggered action resolves. Triggering action resolves. You might well have a third one in there if the triggered action triggers something else in turn. Essentially, they resolve in the opposite order that they were initiated in, but the previously-initiated actions aren't somehow undone or rolled back. (They may become obsolete, such as the attack which now completes against an empty space after the mage Jaunted away.)
SunTzuWarmaster 04-21-07, 09:57 AM	We use the spell Stay the Hand as a good reference for immediate actions. You cast the spell after the opponent attempts to attack you (he swings his sword), he then makes a Will save to see whether he can attack you. If he fails, he cannot attack (his hand is stayed), but he can try to hit something else at a -4 penalty (he was in mid-swing). If he succeeds, attack resolves normally. For abrupt jaunt, we ruled that it works the same way. Opponent declares attack, mage teleports away, opponent can attempt a -4 attack somewhere else. Charges are special, if the mage teleports away, the charge must still be in a straight line. If other characters are in that straight line, then there is no penalty to attack them. Otherwise, you are left with a confused barbarian.