Abuse of Tumble [Archive] - Wizards Community

Abuse of Tumble [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AlGromHerrit
03-08-07, 05:46 PM I need some help here. I have a player who loves Great Swords and the Tumble skill. There is nothing in the rules about Tumbling with a 2 handed weapon. However I really think this should either not be allowed or at least have a penalty. I have not been able to find any other rulings on this. In general who would think that tumbling with a Great Sword was a good idea? Does anyone have a better idea other than just telling the guy "You can’t do this." or "Here is this penalty"?
MourninStar
03-08-07, 05:52 PM As far as it goes, what he's doing is in the rules. Just remember that Armor Check penalties apply to Tumble Checks, and for every threatened square he Tumbles through, the DC increases by two. (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, etc.)

If you're looking for a way to challenge him, a Sorcerer or Wizard with Fly and a Wand of Magic Missiles will go a long way.
UAMDB
03-08-07, 06:22 PM Remember tumble is not just tucking yourself up in a ball and rolling around. It could also be more like bobbing and weaving around so no one can get a shot off at you.
ShinAkuma2
03-08-07, 06:33 PM and for every threatened square he Tumbles through, the DC increases by two. (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, etc.)

Every additional enemy increases the DC by 2. You don't have to continually roll for each square.
MerlintheTuna
03-08-07, 06:35 PM As far as it goes, what he's doing is in the rules. Just remember that Armor Check penalties apply to Tumble Checks, and for every threatened square he Tumbles through, the DC increases by two. (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, etc.)Close, but no.Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.Avoiding the attack of opportunity from Enemy 1 is DC 15, no matter how many threatened squares of his you tumble through. If you move through Enemy 2's threatened area, you need a DC 17 Tumble check to not get slapped by him. And so on and so forth.

Think of it like this -- you're not checking with each square, you making a check to see if movement still provokes attacks of opportunity for that round. If you make the DC 15 check, movement doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity from one opponent for the round, and you can move accordingly without fear -- movement doesn't provoke from him, no matter how much movement you make. Making additional checks against rising DCs means that your movement doesn't provoke AoOs from additional enemies.
Lord_Varos
03-08-07, 06:45 PM He's not being abusive of the rules. Trust me. Game-balance-wise, there is nothing wrong or unbalanced about tumbling with a greatsword. You will not find an entry on the CharOp boards that reads at the bottom, "THIS CHAR IS VB3R BCUZ, GET THIS: GREATSORD AND TUMBLE +35!!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's just not anything special, and he doesn't get any advantage whatsoever from such. If you gave me a penalty for something like that, my jaw would drop first, and then I'd call you a jerk. Not that you are a jerk, but that's not a very well-thought-out rule.

Also, nothing against the CharOp folks. They are (almost) all very intelligent, analytical, and especially good typists. They also make a fabulous glass of apricot mint julep.
Vegepygmy
03-08-07, 07:21 PM Remember tumble is not just tucking yourself up in a ball and rolling around. It could also be more like bobbing and weaving around so no one can get a shot off at you.I just thought this point should be emphasized. It is, I suspect, the reason for the OP's belief that "this should either not be allowed or at least have a penalty."
Kouk
03-08-07, 11:15 PM There are martial arts rolls that only use one arm. You can hold the sword horizontally and roll forwards etc. Tumbling doesn't just mean doing a somersault, it is all sorts of gymnastic moves and dodges.

I would penalize a tumbler if he specifically told me he wanted to walk around his enemy only on his hands while playing the cymbals with his legs perhaps, but otherwise there's no problem.
Tsuul
03-09-07, 01:27 AM Watch a Jacky Chan movie. Not for him tumbling around people, but for how he moves with large objects.
paladin2019
03-09-07, 02:08 AM If you are really that concerned about it give the character a standard circumstance penalty of -2 and move on. And IIRC, Tumble cannot be used in heavy armor.
Garonak
03-09-07, 08:40 AM If you are really that concerned about it give the character a standard circumstance penalty of -2 and move on. And IIRC, Tumble cannot be used in heavy armor.

Partially right... 1. You can't tumble in medium armor either. 2. Dwarves can tumble in any armor because their speed doesn't get reduced.
AlGromHerrit
03-09-07, 10:26 AM Ok thanks for the input everyone. I know "It’s completely in the rules" and when I hear that phrase it triggers "warning power gamming about to happen" alarm. I don't get a chance to read these boards as often as I would like to. So I wanted to make sure that I hadn’t missed an update or something. Two of my players are also GM's and we all thought there just had to be something wrong with this. This really boiled down to “Ok so just where did you put that 8lb 6 foot long sword?”, or do I really want to ask that question? Thanks again for all the input.
Keenath
03-09-07, 10:44 AM I know "It’s completely in the rules" and when I hear that phrase it triggers "warning power gamming about to happen" alarm.That's not a bad instinct, but this is a false alarm. There's nothing wrong with tumbling with even a reach weapon, much less a greatsword -- again, tumbling doesn't necessarily mean anything above your waist ever touches the ground. It's like "moving defensively".

This really boiled down to “Ok so just where did you put that 8lb 6 foot long sword?”, or do I really want to ask that question? Thanks again for all the input.
It's still in his hands, where it has been all along. It's just an issue of your concept of tumbling not matching what the game means.

In any case, there's no power issue with it, even if it's slightly silly... but "slightly silly" and "unrealistic" are another way of saying "cool" and "swashbuckling". Acrobatic feats in combat are usually unrealistic anyway, but it's still neat when they do it in the movies.
Nezkrul
03-09-07, 11:22 AM Partially right... 1. You can't tumble in medium armor either. 2. Dwarves can tumble in any armor because their speed doesn't get reduced.

can you tumble while wearing mithiral breastplate? or more importantly, is mithiral breastplate still breastplate for feat training?
G_Mancer
03-09-07, 11:31 AM 1. tumble is based on type of armor not if your speed was reduced or not. any char, dwarf or not, wearing mediaum or heavy armor cannot tumble.
2. if an armor is mirthil it is 1 catagory less. a mithril BP would be light armor, so it can be tumbled with.
3. a mythril BP is a breastplate. a mithril longsword still gets the +1 from weapon focus...ya dig?
Kevin_H
03-09-07, 11:40 AM 1. tumble is based on type of armor not if your speed was reduced or not. any char, dwarf or not, wearing mediaum or heavy armor cannot tumble.
Last I checked, it's the other way around. The SRD states that "You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot."

It just so happens that all medium armor from the core books reduces your speed. If there was some exotic armor that was technically medium, but allowed you to retain your movement rate, you could still tumble.
ZappoHisbane
03-09-07, 11:44 AM 1. tumble is based on type of armor not if your speed was reduced or not. any char, dwarf or not, wearing mediaum or heavy armor cannot tumble.
2. if an armor is mirthil it is 1 catagory less. a mithril BP would be light armor, so it can be tumbled with.
3. a mythril BP is a breastplate. a mithril longsword still gets the +1 from weapon focus...ya dig?

Actually, #1 isn't quite correct. From the SRD:

Tumble (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty)

You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot.

Thus if your armor doesn't reduce your speed (regardless of type), you can tumble in it. By the letter of the rules of course. Personally, I still have a problem picturing someone in half-plate tumbling, even if it is just the bobbing-and-weaving variety. Maybe I just don't have a good enough imagination. :)
ClementWillowbreaker
03-09-07, 01:07 PM A dwarf can tumble in Battle Plate if he wants, but the armor check is going to make him wish he was wearing Studded Leather. And mithril explicitly counts as lighter for the purposes of movement, so a human can tumble in a mithril Breastplate. If you can find a weapon that reduces your movement speed, you can't tumble with it. Hence a 10 Str rogue that is Monkeygripping a Gargantuan light mace is probably going to have encumbrance issues, but nothing about the weapon itself stops him.

EDIT: Forgot that Mountain plate has a special speed reduction. I was just throwing out an absurdly heavy armor off the top of my head.
Stardust
03-09-07, 01:43 PM There's nothing here that's even close to abuse, really.

It comes down the old argument of dragging reality into D&D. You're worried that trying to do a forward roll (what I can tell of your conception of tumbling) with a large sword in one hand in unrealistic, yet presumably you're alright with a monk walking up to somebody covered in full plate and punching and kicking him effectively. He isn't finding gaps in that armour, you can't do that with a punch or kick - he's just slamming those big ol' fists right into it.

Trying to justify things in terms of reality just doesn't work. Really, there's a million examples that could be given in D&D - the whole of magic for a start. It's not meant to be realistic - it's heroic, exceptional people doing extraordinary things. If you're going to penalize somebody for doing a cartwheel with a sword, then you're going to have a *lot* of overhauling to do on the rest of the system...
Armoracia Rusticana
03-09-07, 02:59 PM Well, technically, it's not that hard to roll forward, backward, diagonally or to right or left with a large sword. Not that hard at all. And lots of kung-fu stuff also. They do these things with long spears just well.
WarAngelAres
03-09-07, 04:46 PM Who ever was saying that you can’t tumble in medium armor is wrong. This is straight out of the book.... "You can't use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot."

Second, don’t think of tumbling as doing cartwheels or even doing back hand springs with the long sword. He is simply dodging the attacks.

Third, you are playing D&D! Nothing in this game is real. You are playing a HERO!!! A wizard is lobbing fireballs at goblins and if your fighter decides he wants to do a front flip in mitheral breastplate while holding a greataxe.... let him. He has the skills. I love it when people in my game say this to me, “You couldn’t do that in real life!” Ya well there is a flying mage behind me launching missiles out of wand; I’ll do what ever I want.

Just remember that he needs to be tumbling at half speed or its a -10 to his check and if he is tumbling THREW and enemy square then its a 25 DC check.
Merestil Haye
03-09-07, 05:03 PM Who ever was saying that you can’t tumble in medium armor is wrong. This is straight out of the book.... "You can't use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot."And so is this one.Speed

Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down. The number on Table: Armor and Shields is the character’s speed while wearing the armor. Humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have an unencumbered speed of 30 feet. So if you can't Tumble if your speed is reduced, and Medium armour reduces your speed, just how do you conclude that anyone can Tumnble in medium armour?

A dwarf can tumble in Mountain Plate if he wants, but the armor check is going to make him wish he was wearing Studded Leather.You might want to reread Mountain Plate? It slows everyone down, even Dwarves, because it explicitly says it slows Dwarves down.

Since a Dwarf in Mountain Plate has had his speed reduced, just how can he tumble?
High Octane
03-09-07, 05:05 PM Can you imagine someone tumbling with a quarterstaff? Well the same type of tucking and holding can happen with a greatsword. you CAN grip the blade you know. You have to be careful but he is probably wearing some type of gauntlet.

He could be slining it across his back, or any 100 other flavorful ways to describe a guy holding a greatsword while ducking and dodging. Heck he could be using the sword to deflect the AoO.

The question is, is it BALANCED?

You can justify anything with flavor.
Moribund
03-09-07, 05:11 PM Last I checked, it's the other way around. The SRD states that "You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot."

Wow, I had never noticed that. Somewhere in the back of my brain I remembered that you couldn't do it in 3.0, but I had assumed they got rid of the rule in 3.5. What's it doing on the description line? Shouldn't it be under Special?

For that matter how is the Tumbler's Breastplate from Races of Stone supposed to work, or is it only for dwarves?

So if you want to Tumble in medium armor you need 4 levels of Knight?

So, if your speed is reduced from carrying your dead friend (who is neither equipment nor loot) you can Tumble normally right?
Stardust
03-09-07, 05:42 PM The question is, is it BALANCED?

You can justify anything with flavor.

It's a straightforward use of the core rules, no twisting definitions or using splatbooks. I fail to see how it even needs justifying.

Besides, a character using a greatsword is probably a fighter-type who is sacrificing heavier armor to be able to use the skills and buying tumble cross-class.

If they do have tumble as a class skill, then in all likelihood, they'll be pumping dex more than str (or else giving up int or cha to boost str), so the greatsword is either a suboptimal weapon in terms of scoring hits, or they're sacrificing skill points or UMD/Bluff/etc.

Any way you look at it, there is nothing at all wrong with using this weapon/skill combination and it certainly isn't imbalanced.
Goreg Skullcrusher
03-09-07, 05:43 PM So, if your speed is reduced from carrying your dead friend (who is neither equipment nor loot) you can Tumble normally right?

Actually, a dead body counts as an object for DnD purposes, so it would in fact count as equipment, and slow you down.

If said person was merely unconscious however, well, that's another story.
HellflameArcanite
03-09-07, 06:10 PM Tumble does bring to mind a halfling-sized gymnast curling up into a ball and rolling through squares like a destroyer droid in mobile form, but that's not it. Tumble, it seems, is more like dodgeball. Dart and duck and dodge through the enemy's threatened squares - it's like getting an unbeatable dodge bonus against AoOs. Thus, while a greatsword would weigh one down, it's effect is negligable.
Garonak
03-09-07, 06:23 PM If you carry it, and it weighs something, it might bring you to medium load and thus slow you down, meaning you can't tumble.

As far as I know there are only three ways to tumble in medium or heavy armor:
-Being a dwarf
-Knight (lvl 4 for medium, 9 for heavy)
-Being Chosen of Corel...bfjhf Latjdkfsdhd (whatever, I don't use Greyhawk pantheon so I've never bothered to learn the names).

This means that all you tumblers out there have to watch how much loot you carry, or you won't get past that guard at the gate.

And yes, Tumbler's BP is mainly for dwarves.
WarAngelAres
03-09-07, 07:04 PM And so is this one.So if you can't Tumble if your speed is reduced, and Medium armour reduces your speed, just how do you conclude that anyone can Tumnble in medium armour?

You might want to reread Mountain Plate? It slows everyone down, even Dwarves, because it explicitly says it slows Dwarves down.

Since a Dwarf in Mountain Plate has had his speed reduced, just how can he tumble?

The reason they can't tumble isn’t because they are in medium armor. It is because they are being slowed by their armor. If I’m a dwarf I’ll tumble in full plate.
paladin2019
03-09-07, 07:29 PM There is at least one medium armor I know of that does not slow a wearer down, but is third party and specific to the Arcanis/Shattered Empires setting.
xanadu
03-09-07, 08:14 PM Can somebody please tell me how one might abuse tumble?

I am having a very difficult time imagining this.
Goreg Skullcrusher
03-09-07, 08:20 PM Can somebody please tell me how one might abuse tumble?

I am having a very difficult time imagining this.

Hrm, picture someone doing backflips off the corner rope to belly-smash a prone opponent, a la WWE.

Oh wait, that's using Tumble to perform abuse.
unusualsuspect
03-09-07, 09:10 PM Hrm, picture someone doing backflips off the corner rope to belly-smash a prone opponent, a la WWE.

Oh wait, that's using Tumble to perform abuse.

Naw, that's just plain old Perform (acting) abuse. :P
FreAkOuTRG
03-09-07, 09:29 PM The reason they can't tumble isn’t because they are in medium armor. It is because they are being slowed by their armor. If I’m a dwarf I’ll tumble in full plate.

In full plate? Yes. In mountain plate? No. No one in mountain plate, even a dwarf, can tumble.
ClementWillowbreaker
03-09-07, 10:41 PM This is my fault for not actually looking up Mountain Plate. I was trying to think of the most-idiotic exotic and weighty armor I could think of, and I picked the one that has a sensible dwarf speed reduction. Replace "Mountain Plate" with "Battle Plate" or "Stone Plate".
StruckingFuggle
03-10-07, 12:09 AM If you carry it, and it weighs something, it might bring you to medium load and thus slow you down, meaning you can't tumble.

As far as I know there are only three ways to tumble in medium or heavy armor:
-Being a dwarf
-Knight (lvl 4 for medium, 9 for heavy)
-Being Chosen of Corel...bfjhf Latjdkfsdhd (whatever, I don't use Greyhawk pantheon so I've never bothered to learn the names).

One more way to tumble in "medium armor": mithral. Which is technically light armor, so its more accurately "a way to tumble in a breastplate", not "another way how to tumble in medium armor"
Flan
03-10-07, 12:49 AM If you don't like it he can sheathe the weapon, tumble, then draw the weapon, since sheathing and drawing a greatsword are free actions on a move action for a barbarian. Although strangely sheathing provokes an attack of opportunity while drawing doesn't, which may defeat the purpose of the tumble depending on where the barbarian is starting from.
ravenshrike
03-10-07, 11:28 AM When you can make a DC 35 check without a sweat, then tumble can become broken, and when you can hit a DC 50(Tumbling up a vertical surface - Bye bye climb check), it definitely becomes broken. Of course, Balance does the same at DC 90.
Garonak
03-10-07, 12:29 PM One more way to tumble in "medium armor": mithral. Which is technically light armor, so its more accurately "a way to tumble in a breastplate", not "another way how to tumble in medium armor"

A Mithral medium armor isn't concidered medium anymore. It's light. Otherwise a rogue in Mithral BP would take -1 on all his/her atks (unless the char took medium armor prof).

If you don't like it he can sheathe the weapon, tumble, then draw the weapon, since sheathing and drawing a greatsword are free actions on a move action for a barbarian. Although strangely sheathing provokes an attack of opportunity while drawing doesn't, which may defeat the purpose of the tumble depending on where the barbarian is starting from.

You can't sheath as a part of a move action. Only draw.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AlGromHerrit 03-08-07, 05:46 PM	I need some help here. I have a player who loves Great Swords and the Tumble skill. There is nothing in the rules about Tumbling with a 2 handed weapon. However I really think this should either not be allowed or at least have a penalty. I have not been able to find any other rulings on this. In general who would think that tumbling with a Great Sword was a good idea? Does anyone have a better idea other than just telling the guy "You can’t do this." or "Here is this penalty"?
MourninStar 03-08-07, 05:52 PM	As far as it goes, what he's doing is in the rules. Just remember that Armor Check penalties apply to Tumble Checks, and for every threatened square he Tumbles through, the DC increases by two. (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, etc.) If you're looking for a way to challenge him, a Sorcerer or Wizard with Fly and a Wand of Magic Missiles will go a long way.
UAMDB 03-08-07, 06:22 PM	Remember tumble is not just tucking yourself up in a ball and rolling around. It could also be more like bobbing and weaving around so no one can get a shot off at you.
ShinAkuma2 03-08-07, 06:33 PM	and for every threatened square he Tumbles through, the DC increases by two. (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, etc.) Every additional enemy increases the DC by 2. You don't have to continually roll for each square.
MerlintheTuna 03-08-07, 06:35 PM	As far as it goes, what he's doing is in the rules. Just remember that Armor Check penalties apply to Tumble Checks, and for every threatened square he Tumbles through, the DC increases by two. (15, 17, 19, 21, 23, etc.)Close, but no.Tumble at one-half speed as part of normal movement, provoking no attacks of opportunity while doing so. Failure means you provoke attacks of opportunity normally. Check separately for each opponent you move past, in the order in which you pass them (player’s choice of order in case of a tie). Each additional enemy after the first adds +2 to the Tumble DC.Avoiding the attack of opportunity from Enemy 1 is DC 15, no matter how many threatened squares of his you tumble through. If you move through Enemy 2's threatened area, you need a DC 17 Tumble check to not get slapped by him. And so on and so forth. Think of it like this -- you're not checking with each square, you making a check to see if movement still provokes attacks of opportunity for that round. If you make the DC 15 check, movement doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity from one opponent for the round, and you can move accordingly without fear -- movement doesn't provoke from him, no matter how much movement you make. Making additional checks against rising DCs means that your movement doesn't provoke AoOs from additional enemies.
Lord_Varos 03-08-07, 06:45 PM	He's not being abusive of the rules. Trust me. Game-balance-wise, there is nothing wrong or unbalanced about tumbling with a greatsword. You will not find an entry on the CharOp boards that reads at the bottom, "THIS CHAR IS VB3R BCUZ, GET THIS: GREATSORD AND TUMBLE +35!!!!!!!!!!!!!" It's just not anything special, and he doesn't get any advantage whatsoever from such. If you gave me a penalty for something like that, my jaw would drop first, and then I'd call you a jerk. Not that you are a jerk, but that's not a very well-thought-out rule. Also, nothing against the CharOp folks. They are (almost) all very intelligent, analytical, and especially good typists. They also make a fabulous glass of apricot mint julep.
Vegepygmy 03-08-07, 07:21 PM	Remember tumble is not just tucking yourself up in a ball and rolling around. It could also be more like bobbing and weaving around so no one can get a shot off at you.I just thought this point should be emphasized. It is, I suspect, the reason for the OP's belief that "this should either not be allowed or at least have a penalty."
Kouk 03-08-07, 11:15 PM	There are martial arts rolls that only use one arm. You can hold the sword horizontally and roll forwards etc. Tumbling doesn't just mean doing a somersault, it is all sorts of gymnastic moves and dodges. I would penalize a tumbler if he specifically told me he wanted to walk around his enemy only on his hands while playing the cymbals with his legs perhaps, but otherwise there's no problem.
Tsuul 03-09-07, 01:27 AM	Watch a Jacky Chan movie. Not for him tumbling around people, but for how he moves with large objects.
paladin2019 03-09-07, 02:08 AM	If you are really that concerned about it give the character a standard circumstance penalty of -2 and move on. And IIRC, Tumble cannot be used in heavy armor.
Garonak 03-09-07, 08:40 AM	If you are really that concerned about it give the character a standard circumstance penalty of -2 and move on. And IIRC, Tumble cannot be used in heavy armor. Partially right... 1. You can't tumble in medium armor either. 2. Dwarves can tumble in any armor because their speed doesn't get reduced.
AlGromHerrit 03-09-07, 10:26 AM	Ok thanks for the input everyone. I know "It’s completely in the rules" and when I hear that phrase it triggers "warning power gamming about to happen" alarm. I don't get a chance to read these boards as often as I would like to. So I wanted to make sure that I hadn’t missed an update or something. Two of my players are also GM's and we all thought there just had to be something wrong with this. This really boiled down to “Ok so just where did you put that 8lb 6 foot long sword?”, or do I really want to ask that question? Thanks again for all the input.
Keenath 03-09-07, 10:44 AM	I know "It’s completely in the rules" and when I hear that phrase it triggers "warning power gamming about to happen" alarm.That's not a bad instinct, but this is a false alarm. There's nothing wrong with tumbling with even a reach weapon, much less a greatsword -- again, tumbling doesn't necessarily mean anything above your waist ever touches the ground. It's like "moving defensively". This really boiled down to “Ok so just where did you put that 8lb 6 foot long sword?”, or do I really want to ask that question? Thanks again for all the input. It's still in his hands, where it has been all along. It's just an issue of your concept of tumbling not matching what the game means. In any case, there's no power issue with it, even if it's slightly silly... but "slightly silly" and "unrealistic" are another way of saying "cool" and "swashbuckling". Acrobatic feats in combat are usually unrealistic anyway, but it's still neat when they do it in the movies.
Nezkrul 03-09-07, 11:22 AM	Partially right... 1. You can't tumble in medium armor either. 2. Dwarves can tumble in any armor because their speed doesn't get reduced. can you tumble while wearing mithiral breastplate? or more importantly, is mithiral breastplate still breastplate for feat training?
G_Mancer 03-09-07, 11:31 AM	1. tumble is based on type of armor not if your speed was reduced or not. any char, dwarf or not, wearing mediaum or heavy armor cannot tumble. 2. if an armor is mirthil it is 1 catagory less. a mithril BP would be light armor, so it can be tumbled with. 3. a mythril BP is a breastplate. a mithril longsword still gets the +1 from weapon focus...ya dig?
Kevin_H 03-09-07, 11:40 AM	1. tumble is based on type of armor not if your speed was reduced or not. any char, dwarf or not, wearing mediaum or heavy armor cannot tumble. Last I checked, it's the other way around. The SRD states that "You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot." It just so happens that all medium armor from the core books reduces your speed. If there was some exotic armor that was technically medium, but allowed you to retain your movement rate, you could still tumble.
ZappoHisbane 03-09-07, 11:44 AM	1. tumble is based on type of armor not if your speed was reduced or not. any char, dwarf or not, wearing mediaum or heavy armor cannot tumble. 2. if an armor is mirthil it is 1 catagory less. a mithril BP would be light armor, so it can be tumbled with. 3. a mythril BP is a breastplate. a mithril longsword still gets the +1 from weapon focus...ya dig? Actually, #1 isn't quite correct. From the SRD: Tumble (Dex; Trained Only; Armor Check Penalty) You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot. Thus if your armor doesn't reduce your speed (regardless of type), you can tumble in it. By the letter of the rules of course. Personally, I still have a problem picturing someone in half-plate tumbling, even if it is just the bobbing-and-weaving variety. Maybe I just don't have a good enough imagination. :)
ClementWillowbreaker 03-09-07, 01:07 PM	A dwarf can tumble in Battle Plate if he wants, but the armor check is going to make him wish he was wearing Studded Leather. And mithril explicitly counts as lighter for the purposes of movement, so a human can tumble in a mithril Breastplate. If you can find a weapon that reduces your movement speed, you can't tumble with it. Hence a 10 Str rogue that is Monkeygripping a Gargantuan light mace is probably going to have encumbrance issues, but nothing about the weapon itself stops him. EDIT: Forgot that Mountain plate has a special speed reduction. I was just throwing out an absurdly heavy armor off the top of my head.
Stardust 03-09-07, 01:43 PM	There's nothing here that's even close to abuse, really. It comes down the old argument of dragging reality into D&D. You're worried that trying to do a forward roll (what I can tell of your conception of tumbling) with a large sword in one hand in unrealistic, yet presumably you're alright with a monk walking up to somebody covered in full plate and punching and kicking him effectively. He isn't finding gaps in that armour, you can't do that with a punch or kick - he's just slamming those big ol' fists right into it. Trying to justify things in terms of reality just doesn't work. Really, there's a million examples that could be given in D&D - the whole of magic for a start. It's not meant to be realistic - it's heroic, exceptional people doing extraordinary things. If you're going to penalize somebody for doing a cartwheel with a sword, then you're going to have a lot of overhauling to do on the rest of the system...
Armoracia Rusticana 03-09-07, 02:59 PM	Well, technically, it's not that hard to roll forward, backward, diagonally or to right or left with a large sword. Not that hard at all. And lots of kung-fu stuff also. They do these things with long spears just well.
WarAngelAres 03-09-07, 04:46 PM	Who ever was saying that you can’t tumble in medium armor is wrong. This is straight out of the book.... "You can't use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot." Second, don’t think of tumbling as doing cartwheels or even doing back hand springs with the long sword. He is simply dodging the attacks. Third, you are playing D&D! Nothing in this game is real. You are playing a HERO!!! A wizard is lobbing fireballs at goblins and if your fighter decides he wants to do a front flip in mitheral breastplate while holding a greataxe.... let him. He has the skills. I love it when people in my game say this to me, “You couldn’t do that in real life!” Ya well there is a flying mage behind me launching missiles out of wand; I’ll do what ever I want. Just remember that he needs to be tumbling at half speed or its a -10 to his check and if he is tumbling THREW and enemy square then its a 25 DC check.
Merestil Haye 03-09-07, 05:03 PM	Who ever was saying that you can’t tumble in medium armor is wrong. This is straight out of the book.... "You can't use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot."And so is this one.Speed Medium or heavy armor slows the wearer down. The number on Table: Armor and Shields is the character’s speed while wearing the armor. Humans, elves, half-elves, and half-orcs have an unencumbered speed of 30 feet. So if you can't Tumble if your speed is reduced, and Medium armour reduces your speed, just how do you conclude that anyone can Tumnble in medium armour? A dwarf can tumble in Mountain Plate if he wants, but the armor check is going to make him wish he was wearing Studded Leather.You might want to reread Mountain Plate? It slows everyone down, even Dwarves, because it explicitly says it slows Dwarves down. Since a Dwarf in Mountain Plate has had his speed reduced, just how can he tumble?
High Octane 03-09-07, 05:05 PM	Can you imagine someone tumbling with a quarterstaff? Well the same type of tucking and holding can happen with a greatsword. you CAN grip the blade you know. You have to be careful but he is probably wearing some type of gauntlet. He could be slining it across his back, or any 100 other flavorful ways to describe a guy holding a greatsword while ducking and dodging. Heck he could be using the sword to deflect the AoO. The question is, is it BALANCED? You can justify anything with flavor.
Moribund 03-09-07, 05:11 PM	Last I checked, it's the other way around. The SRD states that "You can’t use this skill if your speed has been reduced by armor, excess equipment, or loot." Wow, I had never noticed that. Somewhere in the back of my brain I remembered that you couldn't do it in 3.0, but I had assumed they got rid of the rule in 3.5. What's it doing on the description line? Shouldn't it be under Special? For that matter how is the Tumbler's Breastplate from Races of Stone supposed to work, or is it only for dwarves? So if you want to Tumble in medium armor you need 4 levels of Knight? So, if your speed is reduced from carrying your dead friend (who is neither equipment nor loot) you can Tumble normally right?
Stardust 03-09-07, 05:42 PM	The question is, is it BALANCED? You can justify anything with flavor. It's a straightforward use of the core rules, no twisting definitions or using splatbooks. I fail to see how it even needs justifying. Besides, a character using a greatsword is probably a fighter-type who is sacrificing heavier armor to be able to use the skills and buying tumble cross-class. If they do have tumble as a class skill, then in all likelihood, they'll be pumping dex more than str (or else giving up int or cha to boost str), so the greatsword is either a suboptimal weapon in terms of scoring hits, or they're sacrificing skill points or UMD/Bluff/etc. Any way you look at it, there is nothing at all wrong with using this weapon/skill combination and it certainly isn't imbalanced.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-09-07, 05:43 PM	So, if your speed is reduced from carrying your dead friend (who is neither equipment nor loot) you can Tumble normally right? Actually, a dead body counts as an object for DnD purposes, so it would in fact count as equipment, and slow you down. If said person was merely unconscious however, well, that's another story.
HellflameArcanite 03-09-07, 06:10 PM	Tumble does bring to mind a halfling-sized gymnast curling up into a ball and rolling through squares like a destroyer droid in mobile form, but that's not it. Tumble, it seems, is more like dodgeball. Dart and duck and dodge through the enemy's threatened squares - it's like getting an unbeatable dodge bonus against AoOs. Thus, while a greatsword would weigh one down, it's effect is negligable.
Garonak 03-09-07, 06:23 PM	If you carry it, and it weighs something, it might bring you to medium load and thus slow you down, meaning you can't tumble. As far as I know there are only three ways to tumble in medium or heavy armor: -Being a dwarf -Knight (lvl 4 for medium, 9 for heavy) -Being Chosen of Corel...bfjhf Latjdkfsdhd (whatever, I don't use Greyhawk pantheon so I've never bothered to learn the names). This means that all you tumblers out there have to watch how much loot you carry, or you won't get past that guard at the gate. And yes, Tumbler's BP is mainly for dwarves.
WarAngelAres 03-09-07, 07:04 PM	And so is this one.So if you can't Tumble if your speed is reduced, and Medium armour reduces your speed, just how do you conclude that anyone can Tumnble in medium armour? You might want to reread Mountain Plate? It slows everyone down, even Dwarves, because it explicitly says it slows Dwarves down. Since a Dwarf in Mountain Plate has had his speed reduced, just how can he tumble? The reason they can't tumble isn’t because they are in medium armor. It is because they are being slowed by their armor. If I’m a dwarf I’ll tumble in full plate.
paladin2019 03-09-07, 07:29 PM	There is at least one medium armor I know of that does not slow a wearer down, but is third party and specific to the Arcanis/Shattered Empires setting.
xanadu 03-09-07, 08:14 PM	Can somebody please tell me how one might abuse tumble? I am having a very difficult time imagining this.
Goreg Skullcrusher 03-09-07, 08:20 PM	Can somebody please tell me how one might abuse tumble? I am having a very difficult time imagining this. Hrm, picture someone doing backflips off the corner rope to belly-smash a prone opponent, a la WWE. Oh wait, that's using Tumble to perform abuse.
unusualsuspect 03-09-07, 09:10 PM	Hrm, picture someone doing backflips off the corner rope to belly-smash a prone opponent, a la WWE. Oh wait, that's using Tumble to perform abuse. Naw, that's just plain old Perform (acting) abuse. :P
FreAkOuTRG 03-09-07, 09:29 PM	The reason they can't tumble isn’t because they are in medium armor. It is because they are being slowed by their armor. If I’m a dwarf I’ll tumble in full plate. In full plate? Yes. In mountain plate? No. No one in mountain plate, even a dwarf, can tumble.
ClementWillowbreaker 03-09-07, 10:41 PM	This is my fault for not actually looking up Mountain Plate. I was trying to think of the most-idiotic exotic and weighty armor I could think of, and I picked the one that has a sensible dwarf speed reduction. Replace "Mountain Plate" with "Battle Plate" or "Stone Plate".
StruckingFuggle 03-10-07, 12:09 AM	If you carry it, and it weighs something, it might bring you to medium load and thus slow you down, meaning you can't tumble. As far as I know there are only three ways to tumble in medium or heavy armor: -Being a dwarf -Knight (lvl 4 for medium, 9 for heavy) -Being Chosen of Corel...bfjhf Latjdkfsdhd (whatever, I don't use Greyhawk pantheon so I've never bothered to learn the names). One more way to tumble in "medium armor": mithral. Which is technically light armor, so its more accurately "a way to tumble in a breastplate", not "another way how to tumble in medium armor"
Flan 03-10-07, 12:49 AM	If you don't like it he can sheathe the weapon, tumble, then draw the weapon, since sheathing and drawing a greatsword are free actions on a move action for a barbarian. Although strangely sheathing provokes an attack of opportunity while drawing doesn't, which may defeat the purpose of the tumble depending on where the barbarian is starting from.
ravenshrike 03-10-07, 11:28 AM	When you can make a DC 35 check without a sweat, then tumble can become broken, and when you can hit a DC 50(Tumbling up a vertical surface - Bye bye climb check), it definitely becomes broken. Of course, Balance does the same at DC 90.
Garonak 03-10-07, 12:29 PM	One more way to tumble in "medium armor": mithral. Which is technically light armor, so its more accurately "a way to tumble in a breastplate", not "another way how to tumble in medium armor" A Mithral medium armor isn't concidered medium anymore. It's light. Otherwise a rogue in Mithral BP would take -1 on all his/her atks (unless the char took medium armor prof). If you don't like it he can sheathe the weapon, tumble, then draw the weapon, since sheathing and drawing a greatsword are free actions on a move action for a barbarian. Although strangely sheathing provokes an attack of opportunity while drawing doesn't, which may defeat the purpose of the tumble depending on where the barbarian is starting from. You can't sheath as a part of a move action. Only draw.