Agile Shield Fighter & TWF [Archive] - Wizards Community

Agile Shield Fighter & TWF [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
gstg
12-17-07, 09:22 PM I looked thru the FAQ and did searches but to no avail .. so I'll ask. How do you see the progression of these 2 feats. For example:

Feat: Agile Shield Fighter + preregs
"When making a shield bash and armed strike attack as part of a full action, you take a -2 penlty on each attack. These penalties replace the normal ones upi incur for fighting with two weapons" PHB II - Pg 74

Basic Attack: BAB -2 (Primary wep) / BAB -2 (shield bash)

Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
"Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessons by 2, and the off handlessons by 6" PHB - pg 102

So ...

If you have Agile Shield Fighter and pick up TWF does it do anything? Does it take the -2/-2 and +2 to the Primary and +6 (to the standard BaB obviouly) so it would be +0/+0 if you used both feats? Or do you see it staying at -2/-2 and the TWF feat does nothing except prereg for the Imp TWF feat?

Then the big question ... Add Improved TWF at BAB+6. How do you see it?

BAB +6/+1:
Primary +4/-1 & Shield +4/-1
or
Primary +6/+1 & Shield +6/+1
or
Primary +6/+1 & Shield +6/+6

Then at Greater Improved Two Wapon Fighting ... How do you see it?

BAB +11/+6/+1:
Atks: Primary +9/+4/-1 & Shield +9/+4/-1
or
Atks: Primary +11/+6/+1 & Shield +11/+6/+1
or
Atks: Primary +11/+6/+1 & Shield +11/+11/+11

For me I see it more similar to the top examples, but then it means TWF has no effect on anything except to prereg the Imp TWF. Would like to hear others chime in on this.

Thanks
mplindustries
12-18-07, 12:06 AM Agile Shield Fighter, I believe, is designed as an alternative, not an addition, to two-weapon fighting. If you notice, it has no dexterity requirement. It is designed for the stereotypical heavy shield user who has a 12-13 Dex since their pre-mithril Full Plate won't let them benefit from more. I don't believe it's really intended to be combined with the two-weapon fighting tree at all. View it like a low-requirement "free" attack with your shield. There are no improved versions though, so you only ever get one.

That said, there is nothing preventing it from being used with the two-weapon fighting tree. In that case, you would use the -2 from agile shield fighter because it, as the feat states, replaces the two-weapon fighting penalties (normally a brutally high number...is it -8/-10 or -6/-8?), which, with a heavy shield, would still be -4 if you used Two Weapon Fighting. With Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, I see no reason you couldn't claim the extra attacks are also at the Agile Shield Fighter's -2, since it replaces the penalty for two-weapon fighting in general, not for your first off-hand attack or anything like that..

Of course, if you're going to take the Two-Weapon Fighting tree anyway, then I have to ask, why take agile shield fighter to reduce the penalties, rather than Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (CAdv 111) and get the penalty reduction to all one-handed weapons, not just heavy shields?
gstg
12-18-07, 10:51 AM Thank you. So you see it also as the top number examples, being that all the off hand numbers get reduced to -2 on all cases and TWF feat itself does nothing other then prereg you for the future feats.

The main reason I had to go this route is that we are going only with core books mainly (PHB I, PHB II, DMG I, DMG II) for the campaign.

Thanks again
Tony Vargas
12-18-07, 04:09 PM Of course, if you're going to take the Two-Weapon Fighting tree anyway, then I have to ask, why take agile shield fighter to reduce the penalties, rather than Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (CAdv 111) and get the penalty reduction to all one-handed weapons, not just heavy shields?Well, you could take it early in your career, when your DEX isn't sufficient for TWFing, then take TWF&ITWF, later to further boost your use of the heavy shield. It'd effectively save you a feat at low level compared to taking TWFing & Oversized TWF right away.
dawnbringer
12-18-07, 04:21 PM Well, you could take it early in your career, when your DEX isn't sufficient for TWFing, then take TWF&ITWF, later to further boost your use of the heavy shield. It'd effectively save you a feat at low level compared to taking TWFing & Oversized TWF right away.

But thats exactly the kind of thing that makes your characters bad at higher levels.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gstg 12-17-07, 09:22 PM	I looked thru the FAQ and did searches but to no avail .. so I'll ask. How do you see the progression of these 2 feats. For example: Feat: Agile Shield Fighter + preregs "When making a shield bash and armed strike attack as part of a full action, you take a -2 penlty on each attack. These penalties replace the normal ones upi incur for fighting with two weapons" PHB II - Pg 74 Basic Attack: BAB -2 (Primary wep) / BAB -2 (shield bash) Feat: Two Weapon Fighting "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessons by 2, and the off handlessons by 6" PHB - pg 102 So ... If you have Agile Shield Fighter and pick up TWF does it do anything? Does it take the -2/-2 and +2 to the Primary and +6 (to the standard BaB obviouly) so it would be +0/+0 if you used both feats? Or do you see it staying at -2/-2 and the TWF feat does nothing except prereg for the Imp TWF feat? Then the big question ... Add Improved TWF at BAB+6. How do you see it? BAB +6/+1: Primary +4/-1 & Shield +4/-1 or Primary +6/+1 & Shield +6/+1 or Primary +6/+1 & Shield +6/+6 Then at Greater Improved Two Wapon Fighting ... How do you see it? BAB +11/+6/+1: Atks: Primary +9/+4/-1 & Shield +9/+4/-1 or Atks: Primary +11/+6/+1 & Shield +11/+6/+1 or Atks: Primary +11/+6/+1 & Shield +11/+11/+11 For me I see it more similar to the top examples, but then it means TWF has no effect on anything except to prereg the Imp TWF. Would like to hear others chime in on this. Thanks
mplindustries 12-18-07, 12:06 AM	Agile Shield Fighter, I believe, is designed as an alternative, not an addition, to two-weapon fighting. If you notice, it has no dexterity requirement. It is designed for the stereotypical heavy shield user who has a 12-13 Dex since their pre-mithril Full Plate won't let them benefit from more. I don't believe it's really intended to be combined with the two-weapon fighting tree at all. View it like a low-requirement "free" attack with your shield. There are no improved versions though, so you only ever get one. That said, there is nothing preventing it from being used with the two-weapon fighting tree. In that case, you would use the -2 from agile shield fighter because it, as the feat states, replaces the two-weapon fighting penalties (normally a brutally high number...is it -8/-10 or -6/-8?), which, with a heavy shield, would still be -4 if you used Two Weapon Fighting. With Improved and Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, I see no reason you couldn't claim the extra attacks are also at the Agile Shield Fighter's -2, since it replaces the penalty for two-weapon fighting in general, not for your first off-hand attack or anything like that.. Of course, if you're going to take the Two-Weapon Fighting tree anyway, then I have to ask, why take agile shield fighter to reduce the penalties, rather than Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (CAdv 111) and get the penalty reduction to all one-handed weapons, not just heavy shields?
gstg 12-18-07, 10:51 AM	Thank you. So you see it also as the top number examples, being that all the off hand numbers get reduced to -2 on all cases and TWF feat itself does nothing other then prereg you for the future feats. The main reason I had to go this route is that we are going only with core books mainly (PHB I, PHB II, DMG I, DMG II) for the campaign. Thanks again
Tony Vargas 12-18-07, 04:09 PM	Of course, if you're going to take the Two-Weapon Fighting tree anyway, then I have to ask, why take agile shield fighter to reduce the penalties, rather than Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (CAdv 111) and get the penalty reduction to all one-handed weapons, not just heavy shields?Well, you could take it early in your career, when your DEX isn't sufficient for TWFing, then take TWF&ITWF, later to further boost your use of the heavy shield. It'd effectively save you a feat at low level compared to taking TWFing & Oversized TWF right away.
dawnbringer 12-18-07, 04:21 PM	Well, you could take it early in your career, when your DEX isn't sufficient for TWFing, then take TWF&ITWF, later to further boost your use of the heavy shield. It'd effectively save you a feat at low level compared to taking TWFing & Oversized TWF right away. But thats exactly the kind of thing that makes your characters bad at higher levels.