Agile Shield Fighter and TWF/ITWP/etc. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Agile Shield Fighter and TWF/ITWP/etc. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DMaple
03-14-07, 08:15 AM Agile Shield Fighter makes the attack penalties for shield bashing -2/-2

Two Weapon Fighting reduces the penalties for your main weapon by 2 and off hand by 6.

So assuming you have both feats would your attacks be at no penalty?

So 4th level Fighter

BAB +4, Main Weapon +4, Shield bash +4

Improved Two Weapon Fighting gives you another off-hand attack at a -5 penalty for a total of -7, off set by TWF to make it -1.

So at 6th level.
BAB +6/+1
Main Weapon +6/+1
(off hand) Shield Bash +6/+5
DMaple
03-14-07, 09:08 AM Actually you could make your shield your main attack and have the bastard sword as the off hand one.

Combine it with the Tempest Class (which offsets another 2 points of penalty) and by 20th level...

BAB +20, Primary +20/+15/+10/+5 and off hand +20/+20 (ITWF) /+18 (GTWF)

You also have +6 AC from the heavy shield and tempest class abilities before the shield is even magical.

Personally I consider this an exploit and I was wondering how Agile Shield Fighter could be better phrased to plug the loophole.
paladin2019
03-14-07, 03:17 PM Please quote Agile Shield Fighter. It doesn't make sense the way it is described here.
Crovaxan
03-14-07, 05:13 PM agile shield fighter specifically says it REPLACES your TWF penalties with a -2/-2. it doesnt reduce them to it, whatever it was before it is now -2/-2 so the main benefit over TWF would be to take use a heavy shield since it would give u the same penalties as taking twf with a light shield. Now after that ur DM would have to houserule that u can use agile shield fighter as a prereq for ITWF.
DMaple
03-14-07, 06:30 PM You don't need a house rule, take TWF as well. TWF reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons by 2 for the main weapon and 6 for the off-hand. Since Agile Shield Fighter has changed the normal two weapon fighting penalties from -6/-10 to -2/-2 if you then take TWF you end up with -0/-0.

And you could also argue that the off hand reduction applies to the Improved Two Weapon fighting penalty as well since that is an off hand two weapon attack, so since you a -7 over all the 6 reduction would mean -1.

So if you BAB was +6/+1 you attacks would be +6/+6/+5/+1 the ones in bold being your off hand.
Jerks
03-14-07, 06:45 PM You don't need a house rule, take TWF as well. TWF reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons by 2 for the main weapon and 6 for the off-hand. Since Agile Shield Fighter has changed the normal two weapon fighting penalties from -6/-10 to -2/-2 if you then take TWF you end up with -0/-0.
.

Agile Shield Fighter does not stack with Two-Weapon Fighting.
DMaple
03-14-07, 07:09 PM Agile Shield Fighter does not stack with Two-Weapon Fighting.

According to who? Because without some errata the way they are currently written they certainly do.
Crovaxan
03-14-07, 07:21 PM i agree it doesnt stack, because it says it replaces.

If u dont take TWF your normal penalty is -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If you take Agile Shield fighter its reduced to -2 and -2 when u use a shield as one of those attack.s

If you DO take TWF you got -4/-4 if u have anything but a light weapon and -2/-2 if uh hve a light in off hand. Well if u take agile shield fighter when u have a light shield u now do -2/-2 and if u have a heavy shield u do -2/-2

Agiel shield does NOT stack. the text specifically says it Replaces TWF penalties, the feat TWF reduces those penalties but ASF REPLACES those SAME penalties so they can not stack.

ASF is only useful if your gonna use a heavy shield in your offhand.
DMaple
03-14-07, 07:28 PM I agree it replaces and that's the problem, and why it stacks.

It replaces the normal penalties, for two weapon fighting.

They are still penalties for two weapon fighting however.

After all they are penalties and you have them for fighting with two weapons (as a shield counts as a weapon).

Two Weapon Fighting (the feat) says "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6."

It doesn't say what those penalties have to be or where they have to come from in the first place.
Jerks
03-14-07, 08:40 PM Under Agile Shield Fighter it states, "these penalties replace the normal ones you incur for fighting with two weapons."

Whatever penalty you would normally incur you ignore and just use the -2/-2. If you have Two-Weapon Fighting you can either use those numbers or replace them with the benefits of this feat.

I'm not sure how you are reading this, but Agile Shield Fighter lies outside of the normal figuring of Two-Weapon Fighting penalties. If you have both, you can do the math as with Two-Weapon Fighting and then you can use those numbers or just take the -2/-2 from Agile Shield.

It doesn't stack.
dragynson1
03-15-07, 01:16 AM i have to agree it doesnt stack , but should include a note about being a sub for normal twf with regards to ITWF and GTWF
DMaple
03-15-07, 04:39 AM If you have both, you can do the math as with Two-Weapon Fighting and then you can use those numbers or just take the -2/-2 from Agile Shield.

It doesn't stack.

TWF (the feat) doesn't impose a penalty it reduces an existing one, there is nothing to say that it doesn't reduce the penatly imposed by ASF. All I'm doing is applying ASF which replaces the normal -6/-10 with a -2/-2 then reading TWF and reducing the penalties which are now -2/-2 by 2 and by 6 respectively.

Without Agile Shield Fighter
Main hand TWF penalty -6, TWF feat reduces penalty by 2 = -4
Off hand TWF penalty -10, TWF feat reduces penalty by 6 = -4

Now Agile Shield Fighter
Main hand TWF penalty -6, ASF replaces that penalty so now new penalty TWF penalty is -2 you still have TWF and is still reduces the penalty by 2 so = -0
Off hand TWF penalty -10, ASF replaces that so now new penalty TWF penalty is -2, you still have TWF and is still reduces the penalty by 6 so = -0

I agree balance wise it shouldn't stack but mathematically as it is written it does. Agile Shield Fighter only says it replaces a penalty, it does not say it replaces anything that offsets that penalty as well, so the offset provided by TWF feat still applies.

But simply saying it doesn't stack means if a fighter wants to bash more than once he has to pick up a completely useless feat to get on the TWF tree.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DMaple 03-14-07, 08:15 AM	Agile Shield Fighter makes the attack penalties for shield bashing -2/-2 Two Weapon Fighting reduces the penalties for your main weapon by 2 and off hand by 6. So assuming you have both feats would your attacks be at no penalty? So 4th level Fighter BAB +4, Main Weapon +4, Shield bash +4 Improved Two Weapon Fighting gives you another off-hand attack at a -5 penalty for a total of -7, off set by TWF to make it -1. So at 6th level. BAB +6/+1 Main Weapon +6/+1 (off hand) Shield Bash +6/+5
DMaple 03-14-07, 09:08 AM	Actually you could make your shield your main attack and have the bastard sword as the off hand one. Combine it with the Tempest Class (which offsets another 2 points of penalty) and by 20th level... BAB +20, Primary +20/+15/+10/+5 and off hand +20/+20 (ITWF) /+18 (GTWF) You also have +6 AC from the heavy shield and tempest class abilities before the shield is even magical. Personally I consider this an exploit and I was wondering how Agile Shield Fighter could be better phrased to plug the loophole.
paladin2019 03-14-07, 03:17 PM	Please quote Agile Shield Fighter. It doesn't make sense the way it is described here.
Crovaxan 03-14-07, 05:13 PM	agile shield fighter specifically says it REPLACES your TWF penalties with a -2/-2. it doesnt reduce them to it, whatever it was before it is now -2/-2 so the main benefit over TWF would be to take use a heavy shield since it would give u the same penalties as taking twf with a light shield. Now after that ur DM would have to houserule that u can use agile shield fighter as a prereq for ITWF.
DMaple 03-14-07, 06:30 PM	You don't need a house rule, take TWF as well. TWF reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons by 2 for the main weapon and 6 for the off-hand. Since Agile Shield Fighter has changed the normal two weapon fighting penalties from -6/-10 to -2/-2 if you then take TWF you end up with -0/-0. And you could also argue that the off hand reduction applies to the Improved Two Weapon fighting penalty as well since that is an off hand two weapon attack, so since you a -7 over all the 6 reduction would mean -1. So if you BAB was +6/+1 you attacks would be +6/+6/+5/+1 the ones in bold being your off hand.
Jerks 03-14-07, 06:45 PM	You don't need a house rule, take TWF as well. TWF reduces the penalties for fighting with two weapons by 2 for the main weapon and 6 for the off-hand. Since Agile Shield Fighter has changed the normal two weapon fighting penalties from -6/-10 to -2/-2 if you then take TWF you end up with -0/-0. . Agile Shield Fighter does not stack with Two-Weapon Fighting.
DMaple 03-14-07, 07:09 PM	Agile Shield Fighter does not stack with Two-Weapon Fighting. According to who? Because without some errata the way they are currently written they certainly do.
Crovaxan 03-14-07, 07:21 PM	i agree it doesnt stack, because it says it replaces. If u dont take TWF your normal penalty is -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If you take Agile Shield fighter its reduced to -2 and -2 when u use a shield as one of those attack.s If you DO take TWF you got -4/-4 if u have anything but a light weapon and -2/-2 if uh hve a light in off hand. Well if u take agile shield fighter when u have a light shield u now do -2/-2 and if u have a heavy shield u do -2/-2 Agiel shield does NOT stack. the text specifically says it Replaces TWF penalties, the feat TWF reduces those penalties but ASF REPLACES those SAME penalties so they can not stack. ASF is only useful if your gonna use a heavy shield in your offhand.
DMaple 03-14-07, 07:28 PM	I agree it replaces and that's the problem, and why it stacks. It replaces the normal penalties, for two weapon fighting. They are still penalties for two weapon fighting however. After all they are penalties and you have them for fighting with two weapons (as a shield counts as a weapon). Two Weapon Fighting (the feat) says "Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6." It doesn't say what those penalties have to be or where they have to come from in the first place.
Jerks 03-14-07, 08:40 PM	Under Agile Shield Fighter it states, "these penalties replace the normal ones you incur for fighting with two weapons." Whatever penalty you would normally incur you ignore and just use the -2/-2. If you have Two-Weapon Fighting you can either use those numbers or replace them with the benefits of this feat. I'm not sure how you are reading this, but Agile Shield Fighter lies outside of the normal figuring of Two-Weapon Fighting penalties. If you have both, you can do the math as with Two-Weapon Fighting and then you can use those numbers or just take the -2/-2 from Agile Shield. It doesn't stack.
dragynson1 03-15-07, 01:16 AM	i have to agree it doesnt stack , but should include a note about being a sub for normal twf with regards to ITWF and GTWF
DMaple 03-15-07, 04:39 AM	If you have both, you can do the math as with Two-Weapon Fighting and then you can use those numbers or just take the -2/-2 from Agile Shield. It doesn't stack. TWF (the feat) doesn't impose a penalty it reduces an existing one, there is nothing to say that it doesn't reduce the penatly imposed by ASF. All I'm doing is applying ASF which replaces the normal -6/-10 with a -2/-2 then reading TWF and reducing the penalties which are now -2/-2 by 2 and by 6 respectively. Without Agile Shield Fighter Main hand TWF penalty -6, TWF feat reduces penalty by 2 = -4 Off hand TWF penalty -10, TWF feat reduces penalty by 6 = -4 Now Agile Shield Fighter Main hand TWF penalty -6, ASF replaces that penalty so now new penalty TWF penalty is -2 you still have TWF and is still reduces the penalty by 2 so = -0 Off hand TWF penalty -10, ASF replaces that so now new penalty TWF penalty is -2, you still have TWF and is still reduces the penalty by 6 so = -0 I agree balance wise it shouldn't stack but mathematically as it is written it does. Agile Shield Fighter only says it replaces a penalty, it does not say it replaces anything that offsets that penalty as well, so the offset provided by TWF feat still applies. But simply saying it doesn't stack means if a fighter wants to bash more than once he has to pick up a completely useless feat to get on the TWF tree.