Agile Swordsman [Archive] - Wizards Community

Agile Swordsman [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Krusk
11-12-07, 03:48 PM I have been adding a few feats to my game to make one handed swordfighting more of an option. I know it isnt technically realistically more effective, but this is fantasy. Enough people think its a cool idea that it should be a realistic option.

Agile swordsman
Prereq- weapon focus any one handed finessable melee weapon, weapon finesse
Benefit- you may add 1/2 (round down) your Dex mod to Ac as a dodge bonus when wielding a finessable weapon one handed in melee, for which you have weapon focus, so long as your other hand is empty and you are in light or no armor with no shield.
Normal- You apply your Dex mod to AC.

This seemed like one of the more powerful ones so i wanted to see what people thought of the prereq's.
Snazzomancer
11-12-07, 06:46 PM Well honestly, it doesn't seem all that powerful to me. I mean think about it, your giving up one hand and/or a buckler for maybe +2-4 to your AC bonus (Probably won't get much higher than 4). Not a very good deal. Perhaps if your reworked the feat to give you a bonus on combat manuvers (Such as trip or disarm) it might seem more attractive. You might want to make the bonus to AC a dodge bonus instead of Dex to bef it up as well.
jaelis
11-12-07, 08:03 PM I like it.

An alternative/additional feat along similar lines would be to grant a 2:1 ratio for Combat Expertise under the same conditions.
Krusk
11-12-07, 09:00 PM Well honestly, it doesn't seem all that powerful to me. I mean think about it, your giving up one hand and/or a buckler for maybe +2-4 to your AC bonus (Probably won't get much higher than 4). Not a very good deal. Perhaps if your reworked the feat to give you a bonus on combat manuvers (Such as trip or disarm) it might seem more attractive. You might want to make the bonus to AC a dodge bonus instead of Dex to bef it up as well.

Generally the lightly armored warriors in parties i play with have a 20 dex minimum.

Thats a +2 AC, which is strictly better than dodge. On average though, the Dex would be 20 starting, +6 item, +5 tome, +5 from leveling by level 20. for total of 36. Giving an AC of 19 instead of 13.

I was hoping to have it be better balanced at higher end. But i definatly do want to make it a dodge bonus, and didnt notice i worded it the wrong way for that.
Bahumut
11-13-07, 01:10 AM i think it's pretty balanced, if not underpowered. if im reading it correctly, it only works for
a) a weapon you have weapon focus with; costs a feat, and only works with one type of weapon
b) a light, finessable weapon; costs a feat, and means your base damage will be low
c) only light or no armor and no shield; which means your AC from armors/shields will be low/nonexistant

unfortunately, its perfectly balanced for every class except one: the monk. he gives up...pretty much nothing, as if he needs this feat he needs weapon finesse to hit things, and will probably want weapon focus (unarmed strike) or whatever monk weapon they prefer that can be finessed. if you can find some way for this not to become THE feat every monk needs to take, you'll be ok.
CantripN
11-13-07, 06:44 AM Monks shouldn't concern you. They're weak and MAD, even with this slight boost.
Bahumut
11-13-07, 07:43 AM Monks shouldn't concern you. They're weak and MAD, even with this slight boost.

true; any monk worth his salt will be bumping Wis, not Dex.

hopefully others can give some feedback on this...i really like the feel of it, as you arent just using a shield or a weapon to block the attacks (shield bonus to AC), you're using extra mobility to dodge their attacks (dodge bonus to AC). in the end, the AC you get from this feat is trumped by the AC you get from a shield, or the extra damage from a second weapon (which can even give AC from TWD feats).
Krusk
11-13-07, 12:25 PM If people consider this a little on the low side, perhapse i should bump it to "you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to your Dex mod"?

As for monks taking this feat, i use a very diffrent than standard monk, which -i like to think- boosts them up near the power of a barbarian or so.

That said if a monk wants to spend 3 feats for this, well feel free. There are plenty of other better monk specific feats in existance.

-its a more worked on martial monk found in my sig... maybe found in sig-
jaelis
11-13-07, 01:36 PM I don't think it is too weak, I think it's just right. Compare a light weapon fighter with a heavy armor 2HFer.

Light fighter: mithral chain shirt (AC +4, Dex +6) with the corresponding 22 Dex. This feat gives him a total AC of +13.

Heavy fighter: full plate (AC +9, Dex +1) plus heavy shield (+2) with sheild specialization (+1) and Dex 12. He's at +13 too.

So your feat makes these two characters equal, which I think is fair. The light fighter is paying for his AC with his high Dex, and this makes it competetive. But I don't think he should easily be able to plain beat the heavy fighter... the easy way to get the best AC is and should be a pile of armor.

Even with this feat, the 1H fighter is weak, but he should be. It's a style choice, not an optimization choice.
ObscureInfo
11-13-07, 02:08 PM I like it.

I have been looking for something I can do to improve my swashbuckler's AC. I thought about the duelist PrC, but Canny Defense was nerfed so badly, they also cut Precision Strike in half, and several of the features overlap with my swashbuckler's features. Something like this (which would require my taking WF(rapier) first, something I had not planned on doing-since I cannot get the corresponding WS(rapier). -Note: I never get WF if I am not a fighter. Without backing it up with WS, WF's bonus is not worth the cost of a limited feat.) would help out tremendously, without the need of dipping into Duelist.

I will see if my DM will allow this. :D

It's nice to see I am not the only one playing swashbucklers out there. Kudos, my friend, kudos.
Gnarl
11-13-07, 02:44 PM I wouldn't allow it in my games because it's a dodge bonus and that it stacks with shields (like a shield spell).

It seems to good for agile gish builds or even for a wizard.

As a shield bonus it should be ok.
Krusk
11-13-07, 03:24 PM I wouldn't allow it in my games because it's a dodge bonus and that it stacks with shields (like a shield spell).

It seems to good for agile gish builds or even for a wizard.

As a shield bonus it should be ok.

I dont see it as being too good for wizards, a wizard will have at what, 20 dex max? If he wants to spend 3 feats for a net bonus of 2AC he is going to be a dead wizard before he can get 3 feats to spend. Thats just a bad idea for a wizard.
Gnarl
11-13-07, 03:53 PM I dont see it as being too good for wizards, a wizard will have at what, 20 dex max? If he wants to spend 3 feats for a net bonus of 2AC he is going to be a dead wizard before he can get 3 feats to spend. Thats just a bad idea for a wizard.

Having potentially decent dodge bonuses to AC makes me nerveous I guess :D.

Are there any other similar feats or abilities that grant a dodge bonus?
Krusk
11-13-07, 04:28 PM Dodge, it has no prereq and grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC.

this has 2 prereq feats and on average will give at most +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you specialize in the feat or happen to have an immense Dex mod if has potential to do more.
Gnarl
11-14-07, 12:39 AM Dodge, it has no prereq and grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC.

this has 2 prereq feats and on average will give at most +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you specialize in the feat or happen to have an immense Dex mod if has potential to do more.

You're absolutely right in saying that the size of the bonus is not an issue since it does not synergise well with melee combattants and I agree that in 95% of the character builds, the type won't matter since the character will not have a shield bonus to AC.

I was just pointing out that is was a dodge bonus and that it stacks with an Abjurant Champion's already huge AC.
Krusk
11-14-07, 02:06 AM Isnt that the point of the class? to get a huge high AC? Anyway, im guessing people, on average, think its balanced/good from what i can tell. is this true?
Bahumut
11-14-07, 03:02 AM i think it's well balanced as is, i ran a few scenario's and realized very quickly that since its a dodge bonus to AC, it gets negated by being caught FLAT FOOTED or denied Dex bonus to AC. if the DM is getting annoyed with the nible rogue/fighter/whatever dodging all the enemies attacks, they just whack em with a feinting character, or an invisible stalker, or whatever.

something else to remember people, is the the Wis to AC that monks get, applies EVEN if they are flat footed or denied Dex to AC. they have to be helpless or unconscious to lose it.

also remember people, that while dodge bonuses do stack, you cannot "enhance" a dodge bonus to increase your AC the way you can a shield or armor. the best you can do is increase your Dex by 4, to get a +2 Dex bonus and a +1 Dodge bonus to AC. i really cant see how this is broken pre-epic.

EDIT: i was thinking, you may want to change the prerequisite of WF with a light melee weapon to WF with a finessable melee weapon, as the text states in the description.
Krusk
11-14-07, 12:34 PM Will do about the prereq. Thanks a ton for the playtest runs, i didnt even think of the whole "you dont get it flatfooted" thing.

Time for this to get added to my list of optional things players can use.
Bahumut
11-15-07, 01:01 AM this deserves one more :bump:

also, it only works with LIGHT finessable weapons...if that's intended, i don't know of any light weapons that do more than 1d6 damage. just a thought.
Krusk
11-15-07, 10:30 AM I guess it could be bumped to one handed finessable weapons. That still fits the idea, and arent rapier one handed? That would probably be the main classic example of this.
Bahumut
11-15-07, 12:39 PM I guess it could be bumped to one handed finessable weapons. That still fits the idea, and arent rapier one handed? That would probably be the main classic example of this.

aye, a number of cool weapons are one handers that can be finessed, rapier being one of them.
Bahumut
11-16-07, 07:48 AM :duel: :bump:
ragoftag
11-16-07, 07:02 PM Nice little feat that takes effort to make pay off. Mechanically, I find it more than merely intriguing, and quite nice in the 'Zorro' (tm) spirit.
eternalGM
01-28-08, 12:34 PM The intrigueing Prc from Comp. Warrior known as the bladesinger would fit effectively with this. They start off as elf/half-elf fighter with really high dex and take a few levels of wizard after gaining these feats, the spell failure isnt bad at all. Just an idea; keep up the feat invention i like ur style! :D
Krusk
01-28-08, 04:52 PM Well thank you.

I have some other homemade feats my group uses, i could post if anyone is interested in either commenting/peaching or simply stealing and using. Most are done to grant martial characters more options or power. -like this one-

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Krusk 11-12-07, 03:48 PM	I have been adding a few feats to my game to make one handed swordfighting more of an option. I know it isnt technically realistically more effective, but this is fantasy. Enough people think its a cool idea that it should be a realistic option. Agile swordsman Prereq- weapon focus any one handed finessable melee weapon, weapon finesse Benefit- you may add 1/2 (round down) your Dex mod to Ac as a dodge bonus when wielding a finessable weapon one handed in melee, for which you have weapon focus, so long as your other hand is empty and you are in light or no armor with no shield. Normal- You apply your Dex mod to AC. This seemed like one of the more powerful ones so i wanted to see what people thought of the prereq's.
Snazzomancer 11-12-07, 06:46 PM	Well honestly, it doesn't seem all that powerful to me. I mean think about it, your giving up one hand and/or a buckler for maybe +2-4 to your AC bonus (Probably won't get much higher than 4). Not a very good deal. Perhaps if your reworked the feat to give you a bonus on combat manuvers (Such as trip or disarm) it might seem more attractive. You might want to make the bonus to AC a dodge bonus instead of Dex to bef it up as well.
jaelis 11-12-07, 08:03 PM	I like it. An alternative/additional feat along similar lines would be to grant a 2:1 ratio for Combat Expertise under the same conditions.
Krusk 11-12-07, 09:00 PM	Well honestly, it doesn't seem all that powerful to me. I mean think about it, your giving up one hand and/or a buckler for maybe +2-4 to your AC bonus (Probably won't get much higher than 4). Not a very good deal. Perhaps if your reworked the feat to give you a bonus on combat manuvers (Such as trip or disarm) it might seem more attractive. You might want to make the bonus to AC a dodge bonus instead of Dex to bef it up as well. Generally the lightly armored warriors in parties i play with have a 20 dex minimum. Thats a +2 AC, which is strictly better than dodge. On average though, the Dex would be 20 starting, +6 item, +5 tome, +5 from leveling by level 20. for total of 36. Giving an AC of 19 instead of 13. I was hoping to have it be better balanced at higher end. But i definatly do want to make it a dodge bonus, and didnt notice i worded it the wrong way for that.
Bahumut 11-13-07, 01:10 AM	i think it's pretty balanced, if not underpowered. if im reading it correctly, it only works for a) a weapon you have weapon focus with; costs a feat, and only works with one type of weapon b) a light, finessable weapon; costs a feat, and means your base damage will be low c) only light or no armor and no shield; which means your AC from armors/shields will be low/nonexistant unfortunately, its perfectly balanced for every class except one: the monk. he gives up...pretty much nothing, as if he needs this feat he needs weapon finesse to hit things, and will probably want weapon focus (unarmed strike) or whatever monk weapon they prefer that can be finessed. if you can find some way for this not to become THE feat every monk needs to take, you'll be ok.
CantripN 11-13-07, 06:44 AM	Monks shouldn't concern you. They're weak and MAD, even with this slight boost.
Bahumut 11-13-07, 07:43 AM	Monks shouldn't concern you. They're weak and MAD, even with this slight boost. true; any monk worth his salt will be bumping Wis, not Dex. hopefully others can give some feedback on this...i really like the feel of it, as you arent just using a shield or a weapon to block the attacks (shield bonus to AC), you're using extra mobility to dodge their attacks (dodge bonus to AC). in the end, the AC you get from this feat is trumped by the AC you get from a shield, or the extra damage from a second weapon (which can even give AC from TWD feats).
Krusk 11-13-07, 12:25 PM	If people consider this a little on the low side, perhapse i should bump it to "you gain a dodge bonus to AC equal to your Dex mod"? As for monks taking this feat, i use a very diffrent than standard monk, which -i like to think- boosts them up near the power of a barbarian or so. That said if a monk wants to spend 3 feats for this, well feel free. There are plenty of other better monk specific feats in existance. -its a more worked on martial monk found in my sig... maybe found in sig-
jaelis 11-13-07, 01:36 PM	I don't think it is too weak, I think it's just right. Compare a light weapon fighter with a heavy armor 2HFer. Light fighter: mithral chain shirt (AC +4, Dex +6) with the corresponding 22 Dex. This feat gives him a total AC of +13. Heavy fighter: full plate (AC +9, Dex +1) plus heavy shield (+2) with sheild specialization (+1) and Dex 12. He's at +13 too. So your feat makes these two characters equal, which I think is fair. The light fighter is paying for his AC with his high Dex, and this makes it competetive. But I don't think he should easily be able to plain beat the heavy fighter... the easy way to get the best AC is and should be a pile of armor. Even with this feat, the 1H fighter is weak, but he should be. It's a style choice, not an optimization choice.
ObscureInfo 11-13-07, 02:08 PM	I like it. I have been looking for something I can do to improve my swashbuckler's AC. I thought about the duelist PrC, but Canny Defense was nerfed so badly, they also cut Precision Strike in half, and several of the features overlap with my swashbuckler's features. Something like this (which would require my taking WF(rapier) first, something I had not planned on doing-since I cannot get the corresponding WS(rapier). -Note: I never get WF if I am not a fighter. Without backing it up with WS, WF's bonus is not worth the cost of a limited feat.) would help out tremendously, without the need of dipping into Duelist. I will see if my DM will allow this. :D It's nice to see I am not the only one playing swashbucklers out there. Kudos, my friend, kudos.
Gnarl 11-13-07, 02:44 PM	I wouldn't allow it in my games because it's a dodge bonus and that it stacks with shields (like a shield spell). It seems to good for agile gish builds or even for a wizard. As a shield bonus it should be ok.
Krusk 11-13-07, 03:24 PM	I wouldn't allow it in my games because it's a dodge bonus and that it stacks with shields (like a shield spell). It seems to good for agile gish builds or even for a wizard. As a shield bonus it should be ok. I dont see it as being too good for wizards, a wizard will have at what, 20 dex max? If he wants to spend 3 feats for a net bonus of 2AC he is going to be a dead wizard before he can get 3 feats to spend. Thats just a bad idea for a wizard.
Gnarl 11-13-07, 03:53 PM	I dont see it as being too good for wizards, a wizard will have at what, 20 dex max? If he wants to spend 3 feats for a net bonus of 2AC he is going to be a dead wizard before he can get 3 feats to spend. Thats just a bad idea for a wizard. Having potentially decent dodge bonuses to AC makes me nerveous I guess :D. Are there any other similar feats or abilities that grant a dodge bonus?
Krusk 11-13-07, 04:28 PM	Dodge, it has no prereq and grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC. this has 2 prereq feats and on average will give at most +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you specialize in the feat or happen to have an immense Dex mod if has potential to do more.
Gnarl 11-14-07, 12:39 AM	Dodge, it has no prereq and grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC. this has 2 prereq feats and on average will give at most +2 dodge bonus to AC. If you specialize in the feat or happen to have an immense Dex mod if has potential to do more. You're absolutely right in saying that the size of the bonus is not an issue since it does not synergise well with melee combattants and I agree that in 95% of the character builds, the type won't matter since the character will not have a shield bonus to AC. I was just pointing out that is was a dodge bonus and that it stacks with an Abjurant Champion's already huge AC.
Krusk 11-14-07, 02:06 AM	Isnt that the point of the class? to get a huge high AC? Anyway, im guessing people, on average, think its balanced/good from what i can tell. is this true?
Bahumut 11-14-07, 03:02 AM	i think it's well balanced as is, i ran a few scenario's and realized very quickly that since its a dodge bonus to AC, it gets negated by being caught FLAT FOOTED or denied Dex bonus to AC. if the DM is getting annoyed with the nible rogue/fighter/whatever dodging all the enemies attacks, they just whack em with a feinting character, or an invisible stalker, or whatever. something else to remember people, is the the Wis to AC that monks get, applies EVEN if they are flat footed or denied Dex to AC. they have to be helpless or unconscious to lose it. also remember people, that while dodge bonuses do stack, you cannot "enhance" a dodge bonus to increase your AC the way you can a shield or armor. the best you can do is increase your Dex by 4, to get a +2 Dex bonus and a +1 Dodge bonus to AC. i really cant see how this is broken pre-epic. EDIT: i was thinking, you may want to change the prerequisite of WF with a light melee weapon to WF with a finessable melee weapon, as the text states in the description.
Krusk 11-14-07, 12:34 PM	Will do about the prereq. Thanks a ton for the playtest runs, i didnt even think of the whole "you dont get it flatfooted" thing. Time for this to get added to my list of optional things players can use.
Bahumut 11-15-07, 01:01 AM	this deserves one more :bump: also, it only works with LIGHT finessable weapons...if that's intended, i don't know of any light weapons that do more than 1d6 damage. just a thought.
Krusk 11-15-07, 10:30 AM	I guess it could be bumped to one handed finessable weapons. That still fits the idea, and arent rapier one handed? That would probably be the main classic example of this.
Bahumut 11-15-07, 12:39 PM	I guess it could be bumped to one handed finessable weapons. That still fits the idea, and arent rapier one handed? That would probably be the main classic example of this. aye, a number of cool weapons are one handers that can be finessed, rapier being one of them.
Bahumut 11-16-07, 07:48 AM	:duel: :bump:
ragoftag 11-16-07, 07:02 PM	Nice little feat that takes effort to make pay off. Mechanically, I find it more than merely intriguing, and quite nice in the 'Zorro' (tm) spirit.
eternalGM 01-28-08, 12:34 PM	The intrigueing Prc from Comp. Warrior known as the bladesinger would fit effectively with this. They start off as elf/half-elf fighter with really high dex and take a few levels of wizard after gaining these feats, the spell failure isnt bad at all. Just an idea; keep up the feat invention i like ur style! :D
Krusk 01-28-08, 04:52 PM	Well thank you. I have some other homemade feats my group uses, i could post if anyone is interested in either commenting/peaching or simply stealing and using. Most are done to grant martial characters more options or power. -like this one-