Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Type2Demon 08-11-07, 04:07 PM	:rant:Alchemy is Boring! In my opinion, the D&D alchemy system (and potion creation) should be revised. In literature, myth and legend, alchemists experiment with elements and rare ingredients to create exotic mixtures, homunculi, and potions. In D&D, alchemy is just a small amount of useful items and a few extra abilities to create potions. The Brew potion feat creates potions that are just “spells in a bottle”. Where is the “Eye of Newt and Tongue of Frog” type of stuff? It seems that an alchemist should be able to create potions from rare and exotic components instead of spending some gold and experience and poof you have a potion. Collecting Troll’s Blood for a healing potion is more fun (from a role playing sense) than just dropping some gold and some Experience. Why should a wizard alchemist not be able to make a Cure light wounds potion, just because he can’t cast that spell? If a rogue spends points and a feat on Alchemy and Brew potion, then why should he not be able to make potions? I understand that the system is simplified to speed game play, but it is quite dissatisfying. So many role playing opportunities are missed. Characters could search for rare ingredients for useful potions; find useful formulas in treasure troves and research new potions. Personally, I would like to see some sort of formulaic alchemy that works a lot like a wizards spell books do. If you have the formula and the components, you could roll against a creation DC to make a potion (No Exp. Spending needed). Alchemists would greedily keep their formulas to themselves, or sell them at high prices. Alchemists should be able to attempt to enhance existing potions by raising the caster level of the potion (DC goes up with the amount of increase). Such a system could still work alongside the traditional methods of Alchemy in D&D. Did I miss a product somewhere that does this? Anyone else dissatisfied with the Alchemy system in D&D?
Salla 08-11-07, 05:52 PM	I'm not dissatisifed, no. This sounds vaguely like 2nd edition magic item creation, which was such a complete and total pain in the butt nobody ever did it. Alchemical items aren't magical, anyway, thus my only complaint is that you need a caster level to take Craft (Alchemy), which is something I houserule away. When you want to make something magical, you use a magician, not a chemistry professor.
DM Zoc 08-12-07, 11:33 AM	The eye of newt mumbo jumbo is the brew potion feat. Potions require all sorts of rare and exotic components to make, but for game purposes, this is simplified to just saying you need (for example) 75 GP worth of materials. That could be one really rare eye of a three-eyed albino goat, or it could be ten pounds of pickled halfling toes. They don't really go into it. Keep in mind that there is a GP limit for what you can buy in any given city, based on the size of that city. If you want to brew a potion of protection from arrows (requiring 750 GP of reagents), you'll either need to find a large city or go questing for that stuff. I agree that they could stand to go into things in a bit more detail. However, by saying that you need a certain amount of GP worth of materials instead of saying you need wool from a black sheep, they prevent players from exceeding the recommended wealth levels with creative sheep breeding. Again, they sacrifice flavor to (attempt to) preserve balance.
InkBlot 08-12-07, 01:11 PM	They're not sacrificing flavor, they're giving you the opportunity to create your own flavor.
MrCustomer 08-12-07, 01:42 PM	Well Alchemy is just a skill, you are refering to Alchemists as a class. I mean a Wizard or Cleric has Alchemy to mix a few potions with, just an extra ability. The Alchemists of history and myth used alchemy as their only source of power. Why not create a Class, the Alchemist, where the bulk of his power revolves around mysterious mixtures and potions to summon creatures, and create effects, grant powers and abilities and boost the party in various ways. Make the expereince cost of the potions free in this case. Unique potions can be made from rare items based on the power of that item. For example take any creature from the Monster Manual, Any unique ability they have the Alchemist can use to make a potion from their body, the difficulty being based on 10+monster's chalenge rating. So a Potion granting a Breath weapon attack blasting a cone of Fire 6d10 damage from your mouth would be made from the liver of a Red Dragon, would be a 17 difficulty to make and of course would require the liver of a Young red dragon. Also give him a list of common potions he can make. This would require alot of descrition on the part of the player and GM, as well as creativity. Creating a Love Potion might require Charm Person, or the kiss of an exceptionally beautiful Princess. An interesting adventure hook is right there, to overthrough the Evil boss the party decided to seduce his mistress to let them into the secret interence of his castle. To do this they need a love potion by the Alchemist so they participate in the kingdoms Gladiator battle where the prize is presented by the royal family and the Beautiful princess traditionally gives the winner a kiss on the cheek.
nastynate 08-12-07, 02:50 PM	Some of my homebrewed feats... CRAFTY ARTISAN [GENERAL] You produce high quality craftsmanship in a fraction of the time normally required. Prerequisites: Craft (any) 4 ranks Benefit: when calculating your weekly progress with Craft checks, determine the progress made by multiplying your Craft check by the DC (as normal), but calculate the progress made in gold pieces. Normal: Weekly progress on Craft checks is normally calculated in silver pieces. EXTRAORDINARY CRAFTSMAN [GENERAL] You have effectively mastered the most practical and cost efficient means of crafting and repairing items, saving yourself a small fortune in raw material costs. Prerequisites: Crafty Artisan, Master Artisan, Craft (any) 9 ranks Benefit: When crafting an item with the Craft skill you need only pay one fifth of the item’s market value raw materials, and when repairing an item you need only pay one tenth of the item’s market value in raw materials. Normal: When crafting an item you pay one third of the item’s market value raw materials, and when repairing an item you pay one fifth of the item’s market value in raw materials. MASTER APOTHECARY [GENERAL] You are skilled in creating and handling poisons and potions that aid you in healing others, injuring others, and wide range of additional effects. Prerequisites: Craft (poisonmaking) 4 ranks, Profession (apothecary) 4 ranks Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus to Craft (poisonmaking) and Profession (apothecary) checks, and never risk poisoning yourself when handling poisons. Additionally, you can use the Profession (apothecary) skill (as though it were a Craft skill) to make potions as if you had a caster level equal to your character level, and as if you knew all cleric spells of 1st through 3rd level. Simply calculate the market value of the potion, and follow the normal rules for creating non-magical items as outlined under the Craft skill. The Craft DC is 15 + the spell’s level. Normal: Potions may only be crafted by characters with spell casting ability, and the Brew Potion feat. Special: You must pay any of the material component or XP costs of the spell duplicated by the potion when using this feat. MASTER ARTISAN [GENERAL] You produce phenomenal craftsmanship in a fraction of the time normally required by maximizing the efficiency of the raw materials and labor required to make various items. Prerequisites: Craft (any) 6 ranks, Crafty Artisan Benefit: when calculating your weekly progress with Craft checks, determine the progress made by multiplying your Craft check results by the DC (as normal), but calculate your progress made in platinum pieces. Normal: weekly progress made with the Craft skill is calculated in silver pieces. PHILOSOPHY OF ALCHEMY [GENERAL] You have studied the philosophy of alchemy, and may craft alchemical items and potions capable of many wonders and numerous effect. Prerequisites: Craft (alchemy) 4 ranks Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks, and you do not need spellcasting ability to use the Craft (alchemy) skill. Additionally, you can use the Craft (alchemy) skill to make potions as though you had a caster level equal to your character level, and as if you knew all sorcerer/wizard spells of 1st through 3rd level. Simply calculate the market value of the potion, and follow the normal rules for creating non-magical items as outlined under the Craft skill. The Craft DC is 15 + the spell’s level. Normal: Craft (alchemy) may only be used by characters with spell casting ability, and potions may only be crafted by characters with spell casting ability and the Brew Potion feat. Special: You must pay any of the material component or XP costs of the spell duplicated by the potion when using this feat. Some additional alchemical items I use in my game... Alchemical Gold Typically created from lead and rare alchemical compounds, alchemical gold is in all ways functionally identical to real gold. Though it is extremely difficult to create, and the secrets of the alchemical gold production are not widely known, the production is often punishable by death since it completely undermines the stability of gold as the foundation for the world economy. Cost: 50 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 30 The Alchemist’s Stone This smooth red stone (often fixed to a chain of white platinum and worn around the neck), is one of the most potent known alchemical creations in existence, giving its wielder seemingly supernatural insight and power in regard to alchemy. While in possession of the stone a character gains a +10 competence bonus on all Craft (alchemy) checks. Additionally, by channeling the power of the stone, the wielder can craft items of various kinds in mere seconds that might have otherwise taken him days or even weeks to craft. With but a touch, the wielder transmutes raw materials into something of specific form and value. By expending a single charge from the stone (which has 50 total charges), the wielder may use fabricate as per the spell as a spell-like ability at a caster level of 10th. When the charges are used up the stone turns black and loses all abilities, including the competence bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks. Cost: 30,000 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC:30 Bombard This small, round sphere, the size of a plum is a favorite weapon of gnomes, who often refer to it as the “great equalizer.” Bombards are triggered by pulling a pin as a swift action (which ignites a fuse) and are thrown as grenade-like weapons. When a bombard explodes, all creatures and objects in a five-foot-square suffer 3d6 concussive damage (see gunpowder below for details on concussive damage), while creatures and objects in squares adjacent to the explosion suffer 1d6 points of concussive damage. Since you don’t need to hit a specific target with a bombard, you can simply aim at a particular five-foot square. Treat the target square as AC 5. If the bombard is not thrown by the end of the turn in which the pin was pulled, it explodes in the square it currently occupies (much to the wielder’s dismay). Cost: 50 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 25 Brimstone This dark black mineral is little more than a lump of coal before it has been alchemically transmuted. Brimstone functions like the coal it was derived from, but it burns white hot, and constantly gives off soot and smoke; it can burn for one year, before finally breaking down to an ash-like carbon; once lit however, brimstone cannot be extinguished even if submerged in water or subject to magical effects. Firesnuff (described below) is the only known means of extinguishing lit brimstone. Cost: 15 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 25 Dragon Bile This crimson red draught of liquid, rapidly heats to a boil when exposed to the air, and must be consumed quickly before it becomes too hot to swallow. Once consumed, it immediately begins to course through the imbiber’s veins scorching him from the inside, flushing his skin, and inflicting 2 points of fire damage at the beginning of each round. Dragon bile also causes a surge of strength and endurance, granting the imbiber a +4 alchemical bonus to their Strength and Constitution scores. The effects of dragon bile last 1d4+1 rounds; a DC 15 Fortitude save negates both the beneficial and the detrimental effects of dragon bile. Cost: 30 gp Weight: negligible Craft DC: 25 Draught of Vitality This vial of emerald green fluid sparkles when held up to a light source. When consumed, the imbiber immediately gains the benefit of a full 24 hours of bed rest; the imbiber recovers 2 HP per character level, 2 points of ability damage per affected ability score, and any fatigue or exhaustion effects from which the imbiber currently suffers are immediately ended. Cost: 50 gp Weight:negligible Craft DC: 25 The Elixir of Life This miraculous fluid looks like nothing more than a vial of sparkling spring water, but when consumed it immediately and permanently restores the imbiber to a youthful state. The imbiber is restored to the adulthood age category, loses any ability score penalties due to aging, and ceases physically aging altogether; any age-related bonuses to mental stats already accrued, remain in effect. Cost: 150,000 gp Weight:negligible Craft DC: 40 Firesnuff This sparkly ashen powder, when cast upon a small fire (such as a lit torch, alchemist’s fire, or even brimstone) automatically and instantaneously extinguishes the flames. A character that is on fire can have his flames immediately extinguished if he or a companion casts a dose of fire snuff upon him. Firesnuff is sold in 1 lb bags with sufficient powder to extinguish fire over an area of five five-foot-squares; casting a handful of firesnuff over a five-foot-square requires a standard action (so a single bag effectively has five applications). Cost: 15 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 15 Flashstone You can throw this strange stone (covered in alchemical glyphs) as a ranged attack with a range increment of 20 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), it creates a blinding flash. Each creature within a 10-foot-radius spread must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be blinded for 1 hour. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength-based and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Since you don’t need to hit a specific target with a flashstone, you can simply aim at a particular five-foot square. Treat the target square as AC 5. Cost: 30 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 25 Glow Chalk This faintly luminescent chalk is designed for marking symbols, instructions, and directions in mines, though many adventurers find them ideal for use in dungeon crawls. Though the light of the chalk is not significant enough to illuminate a substantial area, it glows brightly enough to be clearly visible, even in total darkness. Glow chalk is sold in small wooden boxes containing five sticks of chalk. A stick of glow chalk is not particularly resilient and can only be used five times before it crumbles away, leaving a faint luminescent powder on the user’s hand (which can be washed away cleanly with the simple application of water). Cost: 15 gp Weight: negligible Craft DC: 15 Gunpowder The best known and most widely used explosive on Sulos is gunpowder. It comes in a variety of forms, but as a rule, it follows the following general game rules: Concussive Damage: Non-magical explosions deal concussive damage. Concussive damage bypasses all damage reduction and hardness and deals damage to objects just as it does to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Unpacked Powder: Unpacked gunpowder does not explode, it merely burns, dealing 1d6 fire damage to any creature in the same square for one round per every two pounds of gunpowder in the square. Packed Powder: Properly packed and prepared gunpowder charges explode when triggered, inflicting concussive damage in a spread effect. Raw gunpowder can be created with a DC 15 Craft (alchemy) check at a cost of 15 gp per pound. Gunpowder is required as a component for crafting any gunpowder explosive item, typically requiring a Craft (gunsmithing) or Craft (explosives) check. The cost of the gunpowder (unless noted otherwise) is already included in the price of such items. Cost: 15 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 25 Inferno Stick This red-colored rod, covered in bizarre alchemical symbols, measures roughly six inches long by one inch thick. Typically used in mining operations (though equally dangerous, if not extremely volatile as weapons), inferno sticks are highly explosive and extremely dangerous. Inferno sticks are harmless until you light the wick (normally requiring a move action with a tindertwig) or expose them to fire. Once lit, the inferno stick explodes at the end of the current round. Inferno sticks have a range increment of 10 feet, and inflict 5d6 damage (half of which is fire damage, the other half of which is concussive damage) in a 10-foot-radius spread. Since you don’t need to hit a specific target with an inferno stick, you can simply aim at a particular five-foot square. Treat the target square as AC 5. If the inferno stick is not thrown by the end of the turn in which the fuse was lit, it explodes in the square it currently occupies (much to the wielder’s dismay). If bundled together, the explosion of a single inferno stick triggers the others instantaneously. For every two sticks bundled together, the damage increases by 1d6, the radius of the explosion increases by 5 feet, and the Reflex saving throw DC increases by 1. A bundle of 10 sticks for example, would inflict 10d6 damage, in a 40-foot-radius burst, with a DC 20 Reflex save for half damage. Inferno sticks are also extremely volatile. If subject to any fire damage while unattended, or if carried on a person that rolls a natural 1 on a save vs. a fire effect they instantly explode. Cost: 30 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 25 The Philosopher’s Stone A more powerful version of the alchemist’s stone, known as the philosopher’s stone, is reputed to exist, but little evidence confirming the reality of the item has ever been revealed. If it were to exist, it might provide a +20 competence bonus on all Craft checks, and enable the wielder to cast fabricate as a spell-like ability at a caster level of 20th, but otherwise function identically to an alchemist’s stone. Of course this would only matter if the philosopher’s stone really did exist, which is highly debatable. Unlike an alchemist’s stone, a philosopher’s stone is rumored to continue to provide a +20 competence bonus to Craft (alchemy) checks even after all the stone’s charges have been used up. Cost: 150,000 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 40 Quicksilver This vial of silvery fluid (which is actually a potent poison) grants its imbiber a +1 bonus to armor class, attack rolls, and Reflex saves, a +30 bonus to speed, and +1 attack during the full attack action. The effects of quicksilver last 1d4+1 rounds, after which time the imbiber suffers 1 point of Dexterity damage; a DC 15 Fortitude save negates both the beneficial and the detrimental effects of quicksilver. Cost: 30 gp Weight: negligible Craft DC: 25 The Salve of Timelessness This miraculous cream is the rave of the upper class, a veritable fountain of youth in a jar, especially popular among the aging aristocrats of high society. When applied to the flesh (as a full-round action), this salve tightens the skin, smoothes out fine lines, causes blemishes and age spots to fade, and grants a +10 alchemical bonus to Disguise checks made to disguise ones self as one age category younger. Additionally, the salve of timelessness is also used by funeral directors to preserve the bodies of the dead; doing so effectively extends the time limit on raising that creature from the dead (see raise dead). Days spent under the influence of this effect don’t count against the time limit. Additionally, this effect makes transporting a fallen comrade or handling the remains of the deceased a bit more tolerable. This effect also works on severed body parts and the like. Both of the previously outlined effects above have a duration of 24 hours. The salve of timelessness is typically sold in glass jars containing sufficient salve for five applications. Cost: 15 gp Weight: negligble Craft DC: 20 Strongheart Due to it's relatively cheap price, this grey-ish-brown powder (smoked or snorted, requiring one minute to imbibe) is one of the more common drugs on the streets of Sulos, even though the unusual substance was not initially conceived or created with such a purpose in mind. Strongheart makes the user feel invulnerable and almighty, giving him a +4 alchemical bonus on saves against fear-effects for 1d4+1 hours. Strongheart also provides its imbiber with a +4 bonus to Will saves (which stacks with the afore mentioned +4 alchemical bonus to Will saves against fear effect), for the duration of the effect. Strongheart is normally sold in small bottles or vials sufficient for only one dosage. Cost: 15 gp Weight: negligible Craft DC: 20 The Universal Panacea This vial of seemingly innocuous, transparent fluid has remarkable healing properties. Once imbibed, the universal panacea immediately ends any and all of the following adverse conditions affecting the imbiber: ability damage, blinded, confused, dazed, dazzled, deafened, diseased, exhausted, fatigued, feebleminded, insanity, nauseated, sickened, stunned, and poisoned. It also cures 10 hit points of damage per character level of the imbiber, to a maximum of 100 hit points. Cost: 1,500 gp Weight: negligible Craft DC: 30 Willbreaker This flask of pungent vial of fluid is most often applied to a cloth and held over the mouth of the target until the fumes have been inhaled. The effects of willbreaker take effect after one minute and persist for 1d4+1 hours. Often used to interrogate prisoners or as a truth serum by law enforcement officials, willbreaker impairs the target’s ability to resist intimidation, penalizing him by -4 on all saves to resist fear. It also reduces the target’s resilience against mind-affecting effects, penalizing all Will saves against such effects by -4; this penalty stacks when applicable (such as the effects of a fear spell) with the penalty will breaker imposes to Will saves made against fear effects, resulting in a total penalty of -8 to Will saves against mind-affecting fear effects. Cost: 15 gp Weight: negligible Craft DC: 20 Zodiac Dust This mysterious silvery green metallic dust is said to be derived from the aether of the heavens. Zodiac dust can substitute for any expensive material components (of equal value) when casting spells. For example, 100 gp worth of zodiac dust can substitute for the 100 gp pearl of identify. Zodiac dust is typically sold in one pound bags, which can be tied to a wizard’s spell component belt, and easily accessed when needed. Normally only a pinch of zodiac dust is needed to cast a spell, since a single pound produces the equivalent of 300 gold pieces worth of components. Cost: 300 gp Weight: 1 lb Craft DC: 20 Is that more along the lines of what you were looking for? :)
Paladin_Hiroshi 08-12-07, 02:53 PM	I use a morrowind style system, where you need ingrediants, not spells, to create potions. It's much better, as I play in a Norse fantasy setting, and we have people hunting for mistletoe, foxglove and such... Works for poisons too.
Eikre 08-12-07, 04:43 PM	Before I could bear the implications of the Vancian system fully, I found refuge of flavor in styling my Wizard as an alchemist. Wake up early in the morning, deliberate over weather to use the dixycotten in a Fireball or Elixir of Haste, see how those mushroom spores planted last night turned out to be, and then mix a couple of brews. Much better than, "Fireball!.. Okay, I'm out of those. Mates, need a Haste or what? Only got one. You know. In my head."
Type2Demon 08-12-07, 09:09 PM	Thanks for the ideas folks, (Nice stuff there Nastynate!) I'm going to set up a home brew rule that allows alchemists the ability to "Upgrade" existing potions. Add special ingredients and make a DC check to add caster levels to the potions power. i.e. a potion of cure light wounds (set a minimum possible caster level heals 1D8+1) could possibly be upgraded to 1D8+5. Faliure to make the DC check will ruin the poition and waste the resources used. I am also considering a home brew set of potables and other mixtures created by alchemists (outside the Brew Potion feat) called Concoctions. Unlike potions, they will have special effects that apply more to skill enhancement and certain special effects (such as Insect repellants and enhancements of materials). They will not be based off spells like potions are. For example, A concoction of sulpher water, crushed marble and elemental earth mixed with a copper rod in a properly runed container, makes a concoction that can increase the hardness of 10 cubic feet of stone by +10. Now, where will those adventurers get elemental earth? As far as the Brew Potion feat goes: It seems to that the system is too simplified. Sure, you might have money issues that require the adventurers to go to a large city to buy what they need for the potion. This can be unrealistic... does this presume that all large cities have stockpiles of Red dragon flame sacs and beholder eyes etc. Just waiting for adventurers to come and buy them? Does someone have a red dragon farm that harvests these? Thiis "you can buy anything" mentality only plays well in a very high magic campaign. That style does not fit my campaign well. Are there any products out there that detail the potion component requirements in greater detail?