Align Weapon and Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Align Weapon and Monks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaim
03-27-08, 10:00 PM One of the major weaknesses of the monk class is the inability to overcome some forms of damage reduction. Ki Strike takes care of magic DR and adamantine DR, Silversheen (DMG) works for silver DR and oil of bless weapon (DMG) for evil outsiders. There's no way around cold iron DR but that's rare anyway.

My question is this:

Can the spell Align Weapon be used on a monk's unarmed strike? The spell description seems to say no: Align weapon makes a weapon good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, as you choose. A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.
But then the class feature says something else.A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Finally i have included the text of magic weapon, which may shed light on the question.Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.)
You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell.
So, the rules seem to say an unarmed strike cannot be aligned but a monk's unarmed strike can. Only the spell text doesn't mention it. So should a player just assume Align Weapon has the same last line as Magic Weapon?
wraithstrike
03-27-08, 10:07 PM The class ability statement is a general statement, but the spells are stating an exception to the rule, kind of like feats that allow players to do things such as making grapple attempts with provoking AoO's. The spell description wins.
Jaim
03-27-08, 10:16 PM Well you could also argue that the Align Weapon text says nothing about a monk's unarmed strike. I'd like to read some more opinions on this, maybe there's even official clarification in some errata or CustServ text.
wraithstrike
03-27-08, 10:26 PM Well you could also argue that the Align Weapon text says nothing about a monk's unarmed strike. I'd like to read some more opinions on this, maybe there's even official clarification in some errata or CustServ text.

but unarmed strikes are natural weapons, however feel free to rule as you will.
dman11235
03-28-08, 03:19 PM USs count as weapons for some things. This is one. The spell is wrong in that monks can benefit from it.
Tek_Jensen
03-28-08, 05:03 PM The Monk's Unarmed Strike is a special case, since (unlike other class's unarmed strikes) it counts as a Manufactured Weapon for the purpose of spells it is a valid target for Align Weapon.

The text on Magic Weapon isn't actually an exception, it's a clarification/reminder that the Monk's unarmed strikes are classified differently.
kamronshepard
03-28-08, 07:21 PM A monk's unarmed strike would indeed qualify for Align Weapon. It is a manufactured weapon for purposes of that spell.
Vegepygmy
03-28-08, 08:00 PM The class ability statement is a general statement, but the spells are stating an exception to the rule, kind of like feats that allow players to do things such as making grapple attempts with provoking AoO's. The spell description wins.You have it exactly backwards. The spell description is the general rule, and the special rule for monks is the exception.
wraithstrike
03-28-08, 09:01 PM You have it exactly backwards. The spell description is the general rule, and the special rule for monks is the exception.

I think this is one of those arguments that has been on the boards for a while, and will never get an official answer. I hope such things are done away with in 4E.
Vegepygmy
03-29-08, 01:05 PM I hope such things are done away with in 4E.Prepare yourself for disappointment, then. "Such things" are inevitable.
Dheran
03-29-08, 06:02 PM A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Considered as a natural weapon, an unarmed strike wouldn't qualify for Align Weapon. But since the Monk's unarmed strike must also be considered as a manufactured weapon, Align Weapon will work. You don't need any explicit statement in the spell to allow it to work on a manufactured unarmed strike any more than you need explicit permission for Align Weapon to work on a manufactured axe.
wraithstrike
03-30-08, 12:30 PM Prepare yourself for disappointment, then. "Such things" are inevitable.

They actually said something about being better at solving rules issues in 4E, but how they will be able to do it in 4E, and not in 3E is something I can't figure out. I do agree such things are inevitable, but they don't have to be.
All they have to do is when they make a bunch of base rules also say when rules collide which one wins.
Vegepygmy
03-31-08, 07:24 PM I do agree such things are inevitable, but they don't have to be.If we're talking about chess or Monopoly, perhaps, but with any rules system of sufficient complexity, it is inevitable that there will be ambiguities, inconsistencies, and flat-out contradictions in the rules.

Accept it.
DeathlessJuan
03-31-08, 07:35 PM The key to clear up the confusion on the subjest is:

Everyone possess unarmed stikes, save for a creature with natural weapons and/or a monk. The reason: unarmed strikes do not deal lethal damage and provoke AoO.

A Monk's Unarmed Strike is a CLASS ABILITY. it is vastly different in meaning than a regular unarmed strike (note the capitalization).

When the spell says:
Align weapon makes a weapon good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, as you choose. A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.

This is in reference to 'unarmed strikes' that everyone* possesses. A monk's Unarmed Strike would qualify for this spell as it is not a unarmed strike, but an armed unarmed strike and can be enhanced by spells/effects that improve its ability. Monk's Unarmed Strike counts as both a manufactured weapon and natural weapon for such effects. As with most effects similiar to this, you apply whichever benefits the monk the most, hence you would consider it a manufactured weapon for the effects of this spell.

It is quite simple how a little grammar can clear up a mess. Monk's Unarmed Strike vs unarmed strikes.
wraithstrike
03-31-08, 10:19 PM If we're talking about chess or Monopoly, perhaps, but with any rules system of sufficient complexity, it is inevitable that there will be ambiguities, inconsistencies, and flat-out contradictions in the rules.

Accept it.

I understand that after 10,000 splat books someone will mess up, but to know the problem exist and not make a call on it is not acceptable. Either say this rule wins, or say in the name of preventing brokenness(improved critical and keen as an example) these will never stack. Some of these rules have been debated for years with no clear answer. If WoTC does not want to make a decision than at the least, not that I like this to much better, just say it is a DM's call.
Cartigan
03-31-08, 10:50 PM So, the rules seem to say an unarmed strike cannot be aligned but a monk's unarmed strike can. Only the spell text doesn't mention it. So should a player just assume Align Weapon has the same last line as Magic Weapon?
It's really just a problem of a lack of properly varied title. A Monk's Unarmed Strike is neither a standard unarmed strike nor an enhanced unarmed strike granted by the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. It is not an exception to the rule, it is a clarification that is required based on the fact the whole bloody thing is confusingly named.
ToastedAmphibian
04-02-08, 09:45 PM A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment.

so it works so long as your monk level is less than 10?

:}
Vegepygmy
04-03-08, 12:23 AM so it works so long as your monk level is less than 10?No, because "treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction" isn't the same as "has a lawful alignment."
DrakaraGM
04-06-08, 02:58 AM Correct.

Just for giggles, look through the books trying to find Chaotic (or any) creatures that actually have DR X/Lawful. Heh. Talk about a not-very-useful class feature... As a GM I am sorely tempted to give some Demons, Slaadi, and other fun chaos-lovin' beasties some DR that Lawful weapons get through, just to give monks something to look forward to fighting with their bare hands... :D
runestar
04-06-08, 03:04 AM Get a necklace of natural attacks from savage species, and imbue it with the metalline and sure-striking weapon properties. This combination will allow you to overcome any combination of alignment and metal-based dr.

There is that feat from PHB2 which lets you fists deal any form of physical damage. Between these, you should have no problem overcoming any sort of dr (save for dr/- and more esoteric combinations like dr/adamantine and cold iron).
kelvinaw273
04-06-08, 03:25 AM Aligned Attack (XPH) is a psionic feat that grants an attack an alignment regardless of the form of the attack (and does +1d6 damage to boot). Nothing is stopping anyone devising some feats for the monk that overcome damage reduction, either, perhaps using uses of Stunning Fist to empower them.
runestar
04-06-08, 09:15 AM Correct.

Just for giggles, look through the books trying to find Chaotic (or any) creatures that actually have DR X/Lawful. Heh. Talk about a not-very-useful class feature... As a GM I am sorely tempted to give some Demons, Slaadi, and other fun chaos-lovin' beasties some DR that Lawful weapons get through, just to give monks something to look forward to fighting with their bare hands... :D

Titan comes to mind, but yeah, basically just them and the slaad....

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaim 03-27-08, 10:00 PM	One of the major weaknesses of the monk class is the inability to overcome some forms of damage reduction. Ki Strike takes care of magic DR and adamantine DR, Silversheen (DMG) works for silver DR and oil of bless weapon (DMG) for evil outsiders. There's no way around cold iron DR but that's rare anyway. My question is this: Can the spell Align Weapon be used on a monk's unarmed strike? The spell description seems to say no: Align weapon makes a weapon good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, as you choose. A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike. But then the class feature says something else.A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Finally i have included the text of magic weapon, which may shed light on the question.Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. (An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon’s +1 bonus on attack rolls.) You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk’s unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell. So, the rules seem to say an unarmed strike cannot be aligned but a monk's unarmed strike can. Only the spell text doesn't mention it. So should a player just assume Align Weapon has the same last line as Magic Weapon?
wraithstrike 03-27-08, 10:07 PM	The class ability statement is a general statement, but the spells are stating an exception to the rule, kind of like feats that allow players to do things such as making grapple attempts with provoking AoO's. The spell description wins.
Jaim 03-27-08, 10:16 PM	Well you could also argue that the Align Weapon text says nothing about a monk's unarmed strike. I'd like to read some more opinions on this, maybe there's even official clarification in some errata or CustServ text.
wraithstrike 03-27-08, 10:26 PM	Well you could also argue that the Align Weapon text says nothing about a monk's unarmed strike. I'd like to read some more opinions on this, maybe there's even official clarification in some errata or CustServ text. but unarmed strikes are natural weapons, however feel free to rule as you will.
dman11235 03-28-08, 03:19 PM	USs count as weapons for some things. This is one. The spell is wrong in that monks can benefit from it.
Tek_Jensen 03-28-08, 05:03 PM	The Monk's Unarmed Strike is a special case, since (unlike other class's unarmed strikes) it counts as a Manufactured Weapon for the purpose of spells it is a valid target for Align Weapon. The text on Magic Weapon isn't actually an exception, it's a clarification/reminder that the Monk's unarmed strikes are classified differently.
kamronshepard 03-28-08, 07:21 PM	A monk's unarmed strike would indeed qualify for Align Weapon. It is a manufactured weapon for purposes of that spell.
Vegepygmy 03-28-08, 08:00 PM	The class ability statement is a general statement, but the spells are stating an exception to the rule, kind of like feats that allow players to do things such as making grapple attempts with provoking AoO's. The spell description wins.You have it exactly backwards. The spell description is the general rule, and the special rule for monks is the exception.
wraithstrike 03-28-08, 09:01 PM	You have it exactly backwards. The spell description is the general rule, and the special rule for monks is the exception. I think this is one of those arguments that has been on the boards for a while, and will never get an official answer. I hope such things are done away with in 4E.
Vegepygmy 03-29-08, 01:05 PM	I hope such things are done away with in 4E.Prepare yourself for disappointment, then. "Such things" are inevitable.
Dheran 03-29-08, 06:02 PM	A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons. Considered as a natural weapon, an unarmed strike wouldn't qualify for Align Weapon. But since the Monk's unarmed strike must also be considered as a manufactured weapon, Align Weapon will work. You don't need any explicit statement in the spell to allow it to work on a manufactured unarmed strike any more than you need explicit permission for Align Weapon to work on a manufactured axe.
wraithstrike 03-30-08, 12:30 PM	Prepare yourself for disappointment, then. "Such things" are inevitable. They actually said something about being better at solving rules issues in 4E, but how they will be able to do it in 4E, and not in 3E is something I can't figure out. I do agree such things are inevitable, but they don't have to be. All they have to do is when they make a bunch of base rules also say when rules collide which one wins.
Vegepygmy 03-31-08, 07:24 PM	I do agree such things are inevitable, but they don't have to be.If we're talking about chess or Monopoly, perhaps, but with any rules system of sufficient complexity, it is inevitable that there will be ambiguities, inconsistencies, and flat-out contradictions in the rules. Accept it.
DeathlessJuan 03-31-08, 07:35 PM	The key to clear up the confusion on the subjest is: Everyone possess unarmed stikes, save for a creature with natural weapons and/or a monk. The reason: unarmed strikes do not deal lethal damage and provoke AoO. A Monk's Unarmed Strike is a CLASS ABILITY. it is vastly different in meaning than a regular unarmed strike (note the capitalization). When the spell says: Align weapon makes a weapon good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, as you choose. A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment. You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike. This is in reference to 'unarmed strikes' that everyone* possesses. A monk's Unarmed Strike would qualify for this spell as it is not a unarmed strike, but an armed unarmed strike and can be enhanced by spells/effects that improve its ability. Monk's Unarmed Strike counts as both a manufactured weapon and natural weapon for such effects. As with most effects similiar to this, you apply whichever benefits the monk the most, hence you would consider it a manufactured weapon for the effects of this spell. It is quite simple how a little grammar can clear up a mess. Monk's Unarmed Strike vs unarmed strikes.
wraithstrike 03-31-08, 10:19 PM	If we're talking about chess or Monopoly, perhaps, but with any rules system of sufficient complexity, it is inevitable that there will be ambiguities, inconsistencies, and flat-out contradictions in the rules. Accept it. I understand that after 10,000 splat books someone will mess up, but to know the problem exist and not make a call on it is not acceptable. Either say this rule wins, or say in the name of preventing brokenness(improved critical and keen as an example) these will never stack. Some of these rules have been debated for years with no clear answer. If WoTC does not want to make a decision than at the least, not that I like this to much better, just say it is a DM's call.
Cartigan 03-31-08, 10:50 PM	So, the rules seem to say an unarmed strike cannot be aligned but a monk's unarmed strike can. Only the spell text doesn't mention it. So should a player just assume Align Weapon has the same last line as Magic Weapon? It's really just a problem of a lack of properly varied title. A Monk's Unarmed Strike is neither a standard unarmed strike nor an enhanced unarmed strike granted by the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. It is not an exception to the rule, it is a clarification that is required based on the fact the whole bloody thing is confusingly named.
ToastedAmphibian 04-02-08, 09:45 PM	A weapon that is aligned can bypass the damage reduction of certain creatures. This spell has no effect on a weapon that already has an alignment. so it works so long as your monk level is less than 10? :}
Vegepygmy 04-03-08, 12:23 AM	so it works so long as your monk level is less than 10?No, because "treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction" isn't the same as "has a lawful alignment."
DrakaraGM 04-06-08, 02:58 AM	Correct. Just for giggles, look through the books trying to find Chaotic (or any) creatures that actually have DR X/Lawful. Heh. Talk about a not-very-useful class feature... As a GM I am sorely tempted to give some Demons, Slaadi, and other fun chaos-lovin' beasties some DR that Lawful weapons get through, just to give monks something to look forward to fighting with their bare hands... :D
runestar 04-06-08, 03:04 AM	Get a necklace of natural attacks from savage species, and imbue it with the metalline and sure-striking weapon properties. This combination will allow you to overcome any combination of alignment and metal-based dr. There is that feat from PHB2 which lets you fists deal any form of physical damage. Between these, you should have no problem overcoming any sort of dr (save for dr/- and more esoteric combinations like dr/adamantine and cold iron).
kelvinaw273 04-06-08, 03:25 AM	Aligned Attack (XPH) is a psionic feat that grants an attack an alignment regardless of the form of the attack (and does +1d6 damage to boot). Nothing is stopping anyone devising some feats for the monk that overcome damage reduction, either, perhaps using uses of Stunning Fist to empower them.
runestar 04-06-08, 09:15 AM	Correct. Just for giggles, look through the books trying to find Chaotic (or any) creatures that actually have DR X/Lawful. Heh. Talk about a not-very-useful class feature... As a GM I am sorely tempted to give some Demons, Slaadi, and other fun chaos-lovin' beasties some DR that Lawful weapons get through, just to give monks something to look forward to fighting with their bare hands... :D Titan comes to mind, but yeah, basically just them and the slaad....