Altering Toughness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Altering Toughness [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Martel732
02-22-08, 02:43 AM I may be DMing a campaign soon and I was thinking about changing the toughness feat. Right now it seems pretty useless except maybe for keeping a spellcaster alive for the first couple of levels. But, they need all the feats they can get and it is more or less useless by level 20ish.
So, I was thinking about houseruling it that toughness gives +1 hp for every odd level and making it a prerequisite for Improved Toughness, (how many improved feats don't require the unimproved version?). However, Improved Toughness would stack. So, at level 20 you would have +30 hp with both versus +23 hp with the current system.
What do ya'll think?
ff6shadow
02-22-08, 02:53 AM I just rolled them together. One feat that grants 3 HP + 1 Hp per level. Feats are to precious to be spent frivolously.
Martel732
02-22-08, 03:12 AM I like that idea, it makes it a more powerful feat but equally useful for all classes. A fighter could tank better and a wizard won't die at first level trying to lift his spell book.
xpochian
02-22-08, 04:19 AM in our games, i rule that anyone who takes toughness has it turn into improved toughness automatically at level 4th and higher.
aelryinth
02-22-08, 11:04 AM I just rolled them together. One feat that grants 3 HP + 1 Hp per level. Feats are to precious to be spent frivolously.

This was the 4E solution. It made the feat useful at first level, AND every level afterwards.

Toughness is a great first level feat. After that, well, it just sucks.
Improved Toughness, an 'improvement', isn't actually any better until level 4! Clearly pretty stupid.

4E has improved a lot of feats, and replaced a lot of class abilities with them...just as it should be for 3.5.

===Aelryinth
StevenO
02-22-08, 11:14 AM I know the NWN video game and the new StarWars RPG edition both use Toughness equivalent to Improved Toughness. If 4e uses 3hp+1/level after 1st there would be nothing wrong with it.
Eerongal
02-22-08, 11:18 AM in our games, we make toughness the same as improved toughness, and add it as a prerequisite to improved toughness, so basically you can just get the feat twice, and obviously normal toughness doesnt stack anymore.
LSMFT
02-22-08, 03:30 PM What do ya'll think?I think that there is a free market solution: if people think it is not worth the cost of a feat-slot it as it is, they won't take it. No problem.
Martel732
02-22-08, 04:10 PM I like the free market as much as if not more than the next guy. Woot, capitalism and what not however, the suckified toughness presents a problem. A feat that increases health is a great idea. But, any new feat is going to be compared to existing feats that do similar things. So, it makes it less likely that a significantly better health boosting feat will be designed since compared to toughness it is 5 times better. They have improved toughness but, it should have just replaced toughness or been combined with it as others have said.
LSMFT
02-22-08, 04:21 PM IIMHO, if they feel Improved Toughness is better, they'll take that. If it is still not good enough, they won't.

If it isn't good enough, players won't take it.

I don't see any problem with how much Toughness sucks. How does it affect me if players don't take it? I mean, to continue the marketplace metaphor, it isn't like I've a warehouse full of Toughness I'm trying to move out. Make room for other feats. So why make it more appealing to the consumer?

They've plenty of feats to pick from. Why do I want to push any one of them so much I feel that I need to make them better? (Sales Incentive program: Free trip to Majorca for the DM who gives out the most Toughness before 4e is released. :D
Weab
02-22-08, 05:15 PM I think thats the idea. if we're using this free market metaphor, DMs all over the world have warehouses full of toughness that they cant sell. So they are looking at ways to 'lower the cost' as it were, or increase value, until supply meets demand.
Airos
02-23-08, 12:55 AM In my games Toughness is +1 HP a level, and it still stacks. My players took it a bunch of times when I fist implemented the house rule, but they've since settled down. It's still a contender, since my players have hemmed and hawed over that or other feats, so I figure it's about the right power level for my games. Bumping it to +3 hp, +1 per level would still be balanced in my opinion, and I may even consider making that change myself.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Martel732 02-22-08, 02:43 AM	I may be DMing a campaign soon and I was thinking about changing the toughness feat. Right now it seems pretty useless except maybe for keeping a spellcaster alive for the first couple of levels. But, they need all the feats they can get and it is more or less useless by level 20ish. So, I was thinking about houseruling it that toughness gives +1 hp for every odd level and making it a prerequisite for Improved Toughness, (how many improved feats don't require the unimproved version?). However, Improved Toughness would stack. So, at level 20 you would have +30 hp with both versus +23 hp with the current system. What do ya'll think?
ff6shadow 02-22-08, 02:53 AM	I just rolled them together. One feat that grants 3 HP + 1 Hp per level. Feats are to precious to be spent frivolously.
Martel732 02-22-08, 03:12 AM	I like that idea, it makes it a more powerful feat but equally useful for all classes. A fighter could tank better and a wizard won't die at first level trying to lift his spell book.
xpochian 02-22-08, 04:19 AM	in our games, i rule that anyone who takes toughness has it turn into improved toughness automatically at level 4th and higher.
aelryinth 02-22-08, 11:04 AM	I just rolled them together. One feat that grants 3 HP + 1 Hp per level. Feats are to precious to be spent frivolously. This was the 4E solution. It made the feat useful at first level, AND every level afterwards. Toughness is a great first level feat. After that, well, it just sucks. Improved Toughness, an 'improvement', isn't actually any better until level 4! Clearly pretty stupid. 4E has improved a lot of feats, and replaced a lot of class abilities with them...just as it should be for 3.5. ===Aelryinth
StevenO 02-22-08, 11:14 AM	I know the NWN video game and the new StarWars RPG edition both use Toughness equivalent to Improved Toughness. If 4e uses 3hp+1/level after 1st there would be nothing wrong with it.
Eerongal 02-22-08, 11:18 AM	in our games, we make toughness the same as improved toughness, and add it as a prerequisite to improved toughness, so basically you can just get the feat twice, and obviously normal toughness doesnt stack anymore.
LSMFT 02-22-08, 03:30 PM	What do ya'll think?I think that there is a free market solution: if people think it is not worth the cost of a feat-slot it as it is, they won't take it. No problem.
Martel732 02-22-08, 04:10 PM	I like the free market as much as if not more than the next guy. Woot, capitalism and what not however, the suckified toughness presents a problem. A feat that increases health is a great idea. But, any new feat is going to be compared to existing feats that do similar things. So, it makes it less likely that a significantly better health boosting feat will be designed since compared to toughness it is 5 times better. They have improved toughness but, it should have just replaced toughness or been combined with it as others have said.
LSMFT 02-22-08, 04:21 PM	IIMHO, if they feel Improved Toughness is better, they'll take that. If it is still not good enough, they won't. If it isn't good enough, players won't take it. I don't see any problem with how much Toughness sucks. How does it affect me if players don't take it? I mean, to continue the marketplace metaphor, it isn't like I've a warehouse full of Toughness I'm trying to move out. Make room for other feats. So why make it more appealing to the consumer? They've plenty of feats to pick from. Why do I want to push any one of them so much I feel that I need to make them better? (Sales Incentive program: Free trip to Majorca for the DM who gives out the most Toughness before 4e is released. :D
Weab 02-22-08, 05:15 PM	I think thats the idea. if we're using this free market metaphor, DMs all over the world have warehouses full of toughness that they cant sell. So they are looking at ways to 'lower the cost' as it were, or increase value, until supply meets demand.
Airos 02-23-08, 12:55 AM	In my games Toughness is +1 HP a level, and it still stacks. My players took it a bunch of times when I fist implemented the house rule, but they've since settled down. It's still a contender, since my players have hemmed and hawed over that or other feats, so I figure it's about the right power level for my games. Bumping it to +3 hp, +1 per level would still be balanced in my opinion, and I may even consider making that change myself.