Alternate use for cleave... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Alternate use for cleave... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
bigdndfan
05-08-07, 01:24 AM We all know the feat states you can make an attack on another creature in range after you drop one target.

But could you instead take that extra attack and use it on the creature you just dropped (though not necessarily killed).

It doesn't explicitly say so in the text, but we know the creature you just dropped is in range.

What do you say?
tyrecian
05-08-07, 01:49 AM just hack away at a corpse? No i dont think so, the idea is that the blade keeps cutting through, so since you changed where they were, no you couldnt attack the same target twice.

It does explicitly say so anyways in the text, just looked it up

from SRD:

"melee attack against another creature within reach"
ScipioX
05-08-07, 02:14 PM Since it says 'another' creature, then I think technically you can't. However, it seems like a fine house rule to allow it to me.

The creature is obviously not dead, so you didn't slice right through it. And what if you have a mace? Obviously you are not slicing through anything with a mace.

I think a better way to look at it is that you didn't lose any momentum. I'd think it wouldn't be that hard to spin around or turn it into a backslash to hit the downed creature.
Savenger
05-08-07, 02:58 PM The fun starts with greatcleave and two creatures. kill one, cleave to the next, cleave to the old corpse, and back and forth, lots of blood!!!! lots of guts. Works best if your facing 3 people as you then intimidate the last one:D
Bruunwald
05-08-07, 03:20 PM just hack away at a corpse? No i dont think so, the idea is that the blade keeps cutting through, so since you changed where they were, no you couldnt attack the same target twice.

It does explicitly say so anyways in the text, just looked it up

from SRD:

"melee attack against another creature within reach"

Cleave does explicitly state how the additional attack is accomplished. The particular image of a blade slicing through an opponent into another is your unique little window-dressing. Nothing more.

Though the name and the description (following through with powerful blows) both would seem to support your notion, neither does anything to explain how a club or a staff can be used to "slice" through an opponent, or how a creature with reach can "slice" through one creature with a blunt object, dropping it without cutting it in half, and then into another behind it.

Personally, I think Cleave and its oft-cheated big brother, Great Cleave, are among the least thought-out and most nonsensical feats in the whole book. Not because I don't think a powerful warrior should be able to mow down rows of enemies. But because, in the designers' mad rush to make those feats broadly-applicable, they sacrificed their visual and practical aspects. Not to mention the fact that they are two of the most vaguely-written feats available.

Anyway, I would have no problem allowing the cleave against the felled target. Obviously, it does not count as a coup de grace, but I think it is a fair application of the effect the feat provides. Think of any movie where you saw a fighter knock someone down, and immediately hack at him again, literally within the space of a second. I have plenty such scenes in my DVD collection. In any case, it's hardly game-breaking.

And by "hardly," I mean you have to be kidding if you think it is.
kalstrand
05-08-07, 08:40 PM I describe a Cleave attack as the fighter being able to exploit a split second distraction caused by the felling of a foe allowing an extra attack.
legowarrior
05-08-07, 09:33 PM Cleave does explicitly state how the additional attack is accomplished. The particular image of a blade slicing through an opponent into another is your unique little window-dressing. Nothing more.

Though the name and the description (following through with powerful blows) both would seem to support your notion, neither does anything to explain how a club or a staff can be used to "slice" through an opponent, or how a creature with reach can "slice" through one creature with a blunt object, dropping it without cutting it in half, and then into another behind it.

Maybe you aren't slicing through your opponent, maybe you strike with such force with a blunt weapon that it knocks the opponent out of the way, and you use that momentum to strike at a target near to the opponent that got knocked back. That would be a pretty good idea of what might be going on with blunt weapons. Piercing weapons would be hard to describe though.
Illithid_Tentacles
05-08-07, 10:22 PM Cleaving with a piercing weapon could be described as poking or stabbing someone in an espcially vulnerable area (a lucky shot, for example), that doesn't take much time to do, like twitching someone's eye out, or piercing thier jugular, and immediatley stabbing at his buddy who's coming at you too.
bigdndfan
05-10-07, 08:06 PM just hack away at a corpse? No i dont think so, the idea is that the blade keeps cutting through, so since you changed where they were, no you couldnt attack the same target twice.

It does explicitly say so anyways in the text, just looked it up

from SRD:

"melee attack against another creature within reach"

I understand it says another creature, but my question was to think about the larger implications of the functioning of the feat. Another attack is gained, could one concievably attack the same target again.

You say no, another says yes and the other posters are theorizing about what cleave does. So regardless of the type of weapon (blunt, piercing whatever) what do others think?
Jaxgaret
05-11-07, 01:11 AM The fun starts with greatcleave and two creatures. kill one, cleave to the next, cleave to the old corpse, and back and forth, lots of blood!!!! lots of guts. Works best if your facing 3 people as you then intimidate the last one:D

That is a sick, but awesome, visual.
Johannixx
05-11-07, 04:08 AM I describe a Cleave attack as the fighter being able to exploit a split second distraction caused by the felling of a foe allowing an extra attack.

That's always been the way I've seen it. You drop one guy so fast that you have time to nail his buddy, whose guard is somewhat down because he expected you to take more time.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigdndfan 05-08-07, 01:24 AM	We all know the feat states you can make an attack on another creature in range after you drop one target. But could you instead take that extra attack and use it on the creature you just dropped (though not necessarily killed). It doesn't explicitly say so in the text, but we know the creature you just dropped is in range. What do you say?
tyrecian 05-08-07, 01:49 AM	just hack away at a corpse? No i dont think so, the idea is that the blade keeps cutting through, so since you changed where they were, no you couldnt attack the same target twice. It does explicitly say so anyways in the text, just looked it up from SRD: "melee attack against another creature within reach"
ScipioX 05-08-07, 02:14 PM	Since it says 'another' creature, then I think technically you can't. However, it seems like a fine house rule to allow it to me. The creature is obviously not dead, so you didn't slice right through it. And what if you have a mace? Obviously you are not slicing through anything with a mace. I think a better way to look at it is that you didn't lose any momentum. I'd think it wouldn't be that hard to spin around or turn it into a backslash to hit the downed creature.
Savenger 05-08-07, 02:58 PM	The fun starts with greatcleave and two creatures. kill one, cleave to the next, cleave to the old corpse, and back and forth, lots of blood!!!! lots of guts. Works best if your facing 3 people as you then intimidate the last one:D
Bruunwald 05-08-07, 03:20 PM	just hack away at a corpse? No i dont think so, the idea is that the blade keeps cutting through, so since you changed where they were, no you couldnt attack the same target twice. It does explicitly say so anyways in the text, just looked it up from SRD: "melee attack against another creature within reach" Cleave does explicitly state how the additional attack is accomplished. The particular image of a blade slicing through an opponent into another is your unique little window-dressing. Nothing more. Though the name and the description (following through with powerful blows) both would seem to support your notion, neither does anything to explain how a club or a staff can be used to "slice" through an opponent, or how a creature with reach can "slice" through one creature with a blunt object, dropping it without cutting it in half, and then into another behind it. Personally, I think Cleave and its oft-cheated big brother, Great Cleave, are among the least thought-out and most nonsensical feats in the whole book. Not because I don't think a powerful warrior should be able to mow down rows of enemies. But because, in the designers' mad rush to make those feats broadly-applicable, they sacrificed their visual and practical aspects. Not to mention the fact that they are two of the most vaguely-written feats available. Anyway, I would have no problem allowing the cleave against the felled target. Obviously, it does not count as a coup de grace, but I think it is a fair application of the effect the feat provides. Think of any movie where you saw a fighter knock someone down, and immediately hack at him again, literally within the space of a second. I have plenty such scenes in my DVD collection. In any case, it's hardly game-breaking. And by "hardly," I mean you have to be kidding if you think it is.
kalstrand 05-08-07, 08:40 PM	I describe a Cleave attack as the fighter being able to exploit a split second distraction caused by the felling of a foe allowing an extra attack.
legowarrior 05-08-07, 09:33 PM	Cleave does explicitly state how the additional attack is accomplished. The particular image of a blade slicing through an opponent into another is your unique little window-dressing. Nothing more. Though the name and the description (following through with powerful blows) both would seem to support your notion, neither does anything to explain how a club or a staff can be used to "slice" through an opponent, or how a creature with reach can "slice" through one creature with a blunt object, dropping it without cutting it in half, and then into another behind it. Maybe you aren't slicing through your opponent, maybe you strike with such force with a blunt weapon that it knocks the opponent out of the way, and you use that momentum to strike at a target near to the opponent that got knocked back. That would be a pretty good idea of what might be going on with blunt weapons. Piercing weapons would be hard to describe though.
Illithid_Tentacles 05-08-07, 10:22 PM	Cleaving with a piercing weapon could be described as poking or stabbing someone in an espcially vulnerable area (a lucky shot, for example), that doesn't take much time to do, like twitching someone's eye out, or piercing thier jugular, and immediatley stabbing at his buddy who's coming at you too.
bigdndfan 05-10-07, 08:06 PM	just hack away at a corpse? No i dont think so, the idea is that the blade keeps cutting through, so since you changed where they were, no you couldnt attack the same target twice. It does explicitly say so anyways in the text, just looked it up from SRD: "melee attack against another creature within reach" I understand it says another creature, but my question was to think about the larger implications of the functioning of the feat. Another attack is gained, could one concievably attack the same target again. You say no, another says yes and the other posters are theorizing about what cleave does. So regardless of the type of weapon (blunt, piercing whatever) what do others think?
Jaxgaret 05-11-07, 01:11 AM	The fun starts with greatcleave and two creatures. kill one, cleave to the next, cleave to the old corpse, and back and forth, lots of blood!!!! lots of guts. Works best if your facing 3 people as you then intimidate the last one:D That is a sick, but awesome, visual.
Johannixx 05-11-07, 04:08 AM	I describe a Cleave attack as the fighter being able to exploit a split second distraction caused by the felling of a foe allowing an extra attack. That's always been the way I've seen it. You drop one guy so fast that you have time to nail his buddy, whose guard is somewhat down because he expected you to take more time.