"Shell-Cracker" Feat Chain PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Shell-Cracker" Feat Chain PEACH [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xaqariah
02-22-07, 11:11 AM Well, this is just an idea that came about from a response that Lieutenent Murgen made on a Class ability I was refining.

While I don't think it will directly become part of the Class, I thought the idea was interesting enough to dig into, and try to develope.

SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and use the same number (+5 or less) to reduce some damage reductions of opponents hit, on your attack. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action. Damage reductions effected are x/Magic and x/Material (silver/cold iron/mithril...)
Normal: A character without the Shell Cracker feat must deal with the damage reduction of opponents normally, by reducing the damage of each attack, or using the appropriate means to circumvent the damage reduction.
Special: A fighter may select Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, IMPROVED [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-Cracker, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As Shell-Cracker, but every point of penalty taken on your attack roll reduces th edamage reduction of some opponents by 2 points. Additionally, Improved Shell-Cracker also effects x/Alignment damage reductions.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-Cracker, Improved Shell-Cracker, base attack bonus +12
Benefit: As Improved Shell-Cracker, but every point of penalty taken on your attack roll reduces the damage reduction of some opponents by 3 points. Additionally, you may now subtract any amount from your attack roll, up to your base attack bonus. Greater Shell-Cracker effects all types of damage reduction.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Thoughts?

:D
CantripN
02-22-07, 11:14 AM Has it occurred to you that Power Attack does essentially the same thing, but with more versatility?

Now, if it keeps the DR lowered for longer or helps allies pierce it, then it might be good.
xaqariah
02-22-07, 11:17 AM Power Attack does the same thing, but excludes Light and Thrown Weapons.

This does not exclude any type of weapon or attack, but in-and-of-itself, does not increase the actual Damage that you cause.
CantripN
02-22-07, 11:24 AM Interesting. I'd take it for an archer, in that case...
xaqariah
02-22-07, 11:27 AM Yeppers. :)

The initial idea came up, as I was developing a Weapon-Throwing Class.

:D
Krusk
02-22-07, 11:39 AM These feats look really cool.

thing i like best about it is actually the fact that its pretty hard to figure out the enemies Dr. so it add some more stratigy and tactics.

Looks balanced to me. I might even borrow it for use in games i run, as long as you dont mind?
xaqariah
02-22-07, 11:47 AM I might even borrow it for use in games i run, as long as you dont mind?

Anything I present is for general use by anyone. :)
(... as long as the DM agrees, of course. :P)

:D
Krusk
02-22-07, 11:51 AM Sweet, im the dm. So i had darn well better agree. or ill show myself and not play.
GinTonic
02-22-07, 05:12 PM I agree that it's useful and balanced (mostly).

1) Although this may be nit-picking, the prereqs for improved should probably be: BAB 6, Shell-Cracker. BAB is preferrable for fighter feats to prevent 12th level mages from picking it up. Also, the WIS prereq isn't required because they would have needed it to get Shell-Cracker in the first place. Likewise, greater prereqs should just be: BAB 12, Improved.

2) For Greater, having the ability to use up to your BAB doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure of this, but I think DR 15 is as high as it ever goes (although there's no hard cap in the rules). That is, spending 5 points of your attack to get 15 DR reduction (DRR?) is plenty. If you spent 12 points to get 36 DRR -> overkill.

3) I don't understand this part:

"The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action."

Does that carry over to the next turn? Can allies benefit? Does the DR reduction stack with multiple attacks? Why not just say that the benefit only occurs for the current attack?

4) I think doubling and then tripling with Improved and then Greater is too much. Yes, it has high prereqs, but you're basically negating any creature's DR. I would keep it at a 5 point limit and have the two improved versions simply apply to additional categories of DR.
xaqariah
02-22-07, 05:57 PM I agree that it's useful and balanced (mostly).

Thanks for the reply and specific thoughts!

1) Although this may be nit-picking, the prereqs for improved should probably be: BAB 6, Shell-Cracker. BAB is preferrable for fighter feats to prevent 12th level mages from picking it up. Also, the WIS prereq isn't required because they would have needed it to get Shell-Cracker in the first place. Likewise, greater prereqs should just be: BAB 12, Improved.

I see your point, with using BAB, instead of Character Level. It makes it so that not every character can get it at the same time, but makes sure that the people who probably need it the most are getting it sooner.

As to the continued listing of previous Prerequisites... That is the standard format in Feat-chains.

2) For Greater, having the ability to use up to your BAB doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure of this, but I think DR 15 is as high as it ever goes (although there's no hard cap in the rules). That is, spending 5 points of your attack to get 15 DR reduction (DRR?) is plenty. If you spent 12 points to get 36 DRR -> overkill.

I haven't seen every creature produced, and have nearly no experience with Epic-Level stuff, so I wasn't sure on the possible need for negating higher Levels of DR. Basically, my thought was to cover the chance that higher was needed.

3) I don't understand this part:

"The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action."

Does that carry over to the next turn? Can allies benefit? Does the DR reduction stack with multiple attacks? Why not just say that the benefit only occurs for the current attack?

Same as Combat Expertise and Power Attack. If you take the penalty, you take it for ALL attacks for the round, including Attacks of Opportunity, where the ability might not be needed.

4) I think doubling and then tripling with Improved and then Greater is too much. Yes, it has high prereqs, but you're basically negating any creature's DR. I would keep it at a 5 point limit and have the two improved versions simply apply to additional categories of DR.

If we do not increase the efficiency, then Greater Shell-Cracker is almost not needed, as there really isn't much besides X/Epic left, after the first two.

I'll hold off on changing this, but would it be better, to just cap Shell-Cracker at 5 points, remove the cap for Improved, and drop the 1 point penalty, for 2 points of reduction to Greater?

Basically:
Shell Cracker: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic and x/material. Max 5 points
Improved: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic, x/material and x/alignment. Max penalty=BAB.
Greater: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 2 points reduction on damage reduction x/any. Max penalty=BAB

Thoughts on this?
GinTonic
02-24-07, 12:39 PM Thanks for the reply and specific thoughts!

You're welcome. Did you know there is a Power Throw feat in Complete Adventurer?

As to the continued listing of previous Prerequisites... That is the standard format in Feat-chains.

You are correct. I guess that is so that if you get a feat by some other means in the middle of a progression, you can't advance further wo/ backfilling the prereqs.

I haven't seen every creature produced, and have nearly no experience with Epic-Level stuff, so I wasn't sure on the possible need for negating higher Levels of DR. Basically, my thought was to cover the chance that higher was needed.

The oldest dragons (wyrm, great wyrm) have DR 20/magic. Demons and devils seem to get up to DR 15/good in MMI. The largest elementals have DR 10/-.

Same as Combat Expertise and Power Attack. If you take the penalty, you take it for ALL attacks for the round, including Attacks of Opportunity, where the ability might not be needed.

Again, you are correct. I didn't have the books in front of me.

If we do not increase the efficiency, then Greater Shell-Cracker is almost not needed, as there really isn't much besides X/Epic left, after the first two.

I'll hold off on changing this, but would it be better, to just cap Shell-Cracker at 5 points, remove the cap for Improved, and drop the 1 point penalty, for 2 points of reduction to Greater?

Basically:
Shell Cracker: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic and x/material. Max 5 points
Improved: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic, x/material and x/alignment. Max penalty=BAB.
Greater: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 2 points reduction on damage reduction x/any. Max penalty=BAB

Thoughts on this?

There are some balance issues that haven't been brought up yet.

Giving the feat taker ability to overcome all alignment-based DR doesn't seem right. This should probably be restricted to the alignments of the character.

This feat would be infringing on monk territory. One of the monk's class skills would be marginalized. Also, this feat would be available before the monk receives it. Monks get magic at 4th, lawful at 10th, and adamantine at 16th. Yes the monk's ability is superior because he doesn't have to sacrifice + to hit. But if you consider that the monk's BAB progression is inferior, it's pretty much a wash at low DR.

A 12th lvl fighter w/ Greater can take -3 to hit to overcome DR 5 (using the newer 2x for Greater you proposed). A 12th lvl monk overcomes the DR for lawful and magic only, and is still at -3 in relation to the fighter (BAB 12 vs. BAB 9). It's still apples and oranges though. If the DR type is chaotic or silver, the monk's ability doesn't help him. As the DR increases, the feat taker's penalties also increase, but the monk's stays the same.

There's also trying to balance it with power attack. There is no Improved or Greater Power Attack.

-----

There are two ways I could see this working. One, make it simpler. Just have one feat that does DR/any and up to +5. It balances with power attack because it gives you access to all weapon types, but only works if the creature has DR. I made it BAB 4 in deference to the monk. Odds are characters won't be facing creatures with DR before that anyway.

SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, BAB +4.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and use the same number (+5 or less) to reduce some damage reductions of opponents hit, on your attack. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action. Any type of damage reduction is effected.
Normal: A character without the Shell-cracker feat must deal with the damage reduction of opponents normally, by reducing the damage of each attack, or using the appropriate means to circumvent the damage reduction.
Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

-----

The second way to do it would be more like what you've done, with a three feat progression. Here, I would limit the DR types, but expand the benefits. The first feat would be weaker, because it would become a stepping stone.

SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, BAB +4.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and use the same number (+5 or less) to reduce some damage reductions of opponents hit, on your attack. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action. You must choose which type of DR you are able to overcome: magic, alignment (law-chaos axis), or alignment (good-evil axis). If choosing an alignment, you must be that alignment or neutral on that axis.
Normal: A character without the Shell-cracker feat must deal with the damage reduction of opponents normally, by reducing the damage of each attack, or using the appropriate means to circumvent the damage reduction.
Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, IMPROVED [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-cracker, BAB +8.
Benefit: As Shell-cracker, but the limit becomes your BAB. You may choose a second type of DR he is able to overcome, with the same restrictions as the Shell-cracker feat.
Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-cracker, Improved Shell-cracker, BAB +12.
Benefit: As Improved Shell-cracker, except with the additional bonus that if the attack does no damage, any additional special effects occur as if damage had been done. You also receive the ability to overcome the third and final type of DR, with the same restrictions as the Shell-cracker feat. You should now be able to overcome magic, good or evil, and law or chaos.
Normal: Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack (DMG pg 292).
Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.
xaqariah
02-27-07, 08:31 AM Alrighty... now we're cookin'!

I like the two ideas you have presented.

Personally, I would like to keep with the feat-chain idea, so you get some scaling ability with it, along with the additional benefits.

The ability to choose the types of DR you overcome, as you take the feats is an interesting feature.

I also like the idea of keeping to your own alignment. I think we might want to include something along the lines, that if you are Neutral, and can Turn Undead (or plan on it) then you cannot choose Evil, and if you can Rebuke Undead (or plan on it) then you cannot choose Good.
(actual wording would have to be hashed out...)

As to the idea that if you don't do damage through the DR, your special effects get through anyway is something that favors a "less is more" strategy. It would be a good thing for characters that deal out little amounts of damage over a large number of attacks. It's an interesting twist that it helps out the Two Weapon Fighter, but stacks up to another three Feats to add on-top of everything needed to get Two Weapon Fighting to work. It also would help greatly with bow-users who might be having trouble getting 10-15 points of damage with a single arrow. The 1d6 Fire/Cold/Electricity damage still gets through.

You could run into a problem, if you are near the DR threshold, but that would probably be more rare, than the norm. (although I'd have to see it in action on a couple of character builds, to know for sure) There is the odd case, where rolling average damage, would be less than the DR, allowing a couple of dice worth of Sheak Attack (or magical elemental type damage) through, but a good damage roll, or a critical hit will be more than the DR, and end up dealing out less damage.

I'm still not sure if this is a good idea, or not, seeing as the last Feat would actually encourage you to not trade-in any BAB, to force the extra effect to trigger.

Overall, lots of great ideas. I'd like to open that last effect up to discussion, before editing the original post, though.

:D
GinTonic
02-27-07, 03:47 PM The granting of the special damage w/ 0 damage dealt would be a bonus that is almost separate from the whole trading + to hit for DRR. It would be the payoff for investing in the full feat progression.

Note that if you overcome enough DR to do damage, the special damage still happens. So there is no situation where rolling less damage is beneficial. What it would lead to is people sacrificing only +1, giving up pretty much any regular damage, solely to get the special damage.

Before they get Greater, their only option is to pull out the stops to get past the DR to do special damage. Once they get Greater, they could still use that tactic if they want, but now they have the option of minimizing the sacrifice, probably hitting more, and relying on the special damage.

Archers, thrown-weapon users, assassins, or other dagger users would get the most benefit from Greater, I think. The other classes should be able to do enough damage to overcome pretty much any DR by the time they have BAB +12.
benstundze
03-03-07, 03:03 PM SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, BAB 5
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can reduce some damage reduction of opponents hit, on your attack equal to 2. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action.

Special: A fighter may select Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, IMPROVED [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-Cracker
Benefit: As Shell-Cracker, but 3 points of damage reduction.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Improved Shell-Cracker
Benefit: As Improved Shell-Cracker, but 3 points of damage reduction.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, Improved GREATER [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, GREATER Shell-Cracker
Benefit: As GREATER Shell-Cracker, but 4 points of damage reduction.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER Grand [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Improved GREATER Shell-Cracker
Benefit: As Improved GREATER Shell-Cracker, but 5 points of damage reduction. 3+wis modifier times a day they can remove all DR from 1 target for 10 minutes
Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.

SHELL-CRACKER, ULTAMET [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Wis 13, GREATER Grand Shell-Cracker
Benefit: As GREATER Grand Shell-Cracker, but 6 points of damage reduction. 5+wis modifier times a day they can remove all DR from 1 target for 15 minutes.
Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.
well? you like?
ben

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xaqariah 02-22-07, 11:11 AM	Well, this is just an idea that came about from a response that Lieutenent Murgen made on a Class ability I was refining. While I don't think it will directly become part of the Class, I thought the idea was interesting enough to dig into, and try to develope. SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13. Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and use the same number (+5 or less) to reduce some damage reductions of opponents hit, on your attack. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action. Damage reductions effected are x/Magic and x/Material (silver/cold iron/mithril...) Normal: A character without the Shell Cracker feat must deal with the damage reduction of opponents normally, by reducing the damage of each attack, or using the appropriate means to circumvent the damage reduction. Special: A fighter may select Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, IMPROVED [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-Cracker, base attack bonus +6 Benefit: As Shell-Cracker, but every point of penalty taken on your attack roll reduces th edamage reduction of some opponents by 2 points. Additionally, Improved Shell-Cracker also effects x/Alignment damage reductions. Special: A fighter may select Improved Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-Cracker, Improved Shell-Cracker, base attack bonus +12 Benefit: As Improved Shell-Cracker, but every point of penalty taken on your attack roll reduces the damage reduction of some opponents by 3 points. Additionally, you may now subtract any amount from your attack roll, up to your base attack bonus. Greater Shell-Cracker effects all types of damage reduction. Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. Thoughts? :D
CantripN 02-22-07, 11:14 AM	Has it occurred to you that Power Attack does essentially the same thing, but with more versatility? Now, if it keeps the DR lowered for longer or helps allies pierce it, then it might be good.
xaqariah 02-22-07, 11:17 AM	Power Attack does the same thing, but excludes Light and Thrown Weapons. This does not exclude any type of weapon or attack, but in-and-of-itself, does not increase the actual Damage that you cause.
CantripN 02-22-07, 11:24 AM	Interesting. I'd take it for an archer, in that case...
xaqariah 02-22-07, 11:27 AM	Yeppers. :) The initial idea came up, as I was developing a Weapon-Throwing Class. :D
Krusk 02-22-07, 11:39 AM	These feats look really cool. thing i like best about it is actually the fact that its pretty hard to figure out the enemies Dr. so it add some more stratigy and tactics. Looks balanced to me. I might even borrow it for use in games i run, as long as you dont mind?
xaqariah 02-22-07, 11:47 AM	I might even borrow it for use in games i run, as long as you dont mind? Anything I present is for general use by anyone. :) (... as long as the DM agrees, of course. :P) :D
Krusk 02-22-07, 11:51 AM	Sweet, im the dm. So i had darn well better agree. or ill show myself and not play.
GinTonic 02-22-07, 05:12 PM	I agree that it's useful and balanced (mostly). 1) Although this may be nit-picking, the prereqs for improved should probably be: BAB 6, Shell-Cracker. BAB is preferrable for fighter feats to prevent 12th level mages from picking it up. Also, the WIS prereq isn't required because they would have needed it to get Shell-Cracker in the first place. Likewise, greater prereqs should just be: BAB 12, Improved. 2) For Greater, having the ability to use up to your BAB doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure of this, but I think DR 15 is as high as it ever goes (although there's no hard cap in the rules). That is, spending 5 points of your attack to get 15 DR reduction (DRR?) is plenty. If you spent 12 points to get 36 DRR -> overkill. 3) I don't understand this part: "The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action." Does that carry over to the next turn? Can allies benefit? Does the DR reduction stack with multiple attacks? Why not just say that the benefit only occurs for the current attack? 4) I think doubling and then tripling with Improved and then Greater is too much. Yes, it has high prereqs, but you're basically negating any creature's DR. I would keep it at a 5 point limit and have the two improved versions simply apply to additional categories of DR.
xaqariah 02-22-07, 05:57 PM	I agree that it's useful and balanced (mostly). Thanks for the reply and specific thoughts! 1) Although this may be nit-picking, the prereqs for improved should probably be: BAB 6, Shell-Cracker. BAB is preferrable for fighter feats to prevent 12th level mages from picking it up. Also, the WIS prereq isn't required because they would have needed it to get Shell-Cracker in the first place. Likewise, greater prereqs should just be: BAB 12, Improved. I see your point, with using BAB, instead of Character Level. It makes it so that not every character can get it at the same time, but makes sure that the people who probably need it the most are getting it sooner. As to the continued listing of previous Prerequisites... That is the standard format in Feat-chains. 2) For Greater, having the ability to use up to your BAB doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure of this, but I think DR 15 is as high as it ever goes (although there's no hard cap in the rules). That is, spending 5 points of your attack to get 15 DR reduction (DRR?) is plenty. If you spent 12 points to get 36 DRR -> overkill. I haven't seen every creature produced, and have nearly no experience with Epic-Level stuff, so I wasn't sure on the possible need for negating higher Levels of DR. Basically, my thought was to cover the chance that higher was needed. 3) I don't understand this part: "The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action." Does that carry over to the next turn? Can allies benefit? Does the DR reduction stack with multiple attacks? Why not just say that the benefit only occurs for the current attack? Same as Combat Expertise and Power Attack. If you take the penalty, you take it for ALL attacks for the round, including Attacks of Opportunity, where the ability might not be needed. 4) I think doubling and then tripling with Improved and then Greater is too much. Yes, it has high prereqs, but you're basically negating any creature's DR. I would keep it at a 5 point limit and have the two improved versions simply apply to additional categories of DR. If we do not increase the efficiency, then Greater Shell-Cracker is almost not needed, as there really isn't much besides X/Epic left, after the first two. I'll hold off on changing this, but would it be better, to just cap Shell-Cracker at 5 points, remove the cap for Improved, and drop the 1 point penalty, for 2 points of reduction to Greater? Basically: Shell Cracker: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic and x/material. Max 5 points Improved: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic, x/material and x/alignment. Max penalty=BAB. Greater: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 2 points reduction on damage reduction x/any. Max penalty=BAB Thoughts on this?
GinTonic 02-24-07, 12:39 PM	Thanks for the reply and specific thoughts! You're welcome. Did you know there is a Power Throw feat in Complete Adventurer? As to the continued listing of previous Prerequisites... That is the standard format in Feat-chains. You are correct. I guess that is so that if you get a feat by some other means in the middle of a progression, you can't advance further wo/ backfilling the prereqs. I haven't seen every creature produced, and have nearly no experience with Epic-Level stuff, so I wasn't sure on the possible need for negating higher Levels of DR. Basically, my thought was to cover the chance that higher was needed. The oldest dragons (wyrm, great wyrm) have DR 20/magic. Demons and devils seem to get up to DR 15/good in MMI. The largest elementals have DR 10/-. Same as Combat Expertise and Power Attack. If you take the penalty, you take it for ALL attacks for the round, including Attacks of Opportunity, where the ability might not be needed. Again, you are correct. I didn't have the books in front of me. If we do not increase the efficiency, then Greater Shell-Cracker is almost not needed, as there really isn't much besides X/Epic left, after the first two. I'll hold off on changing this, but would it be better, to just cap Shell-Cracker at 5 points, remove the cap for Improved, and drop the 1 point penalty, for 2 points of reduction to Greater? Basically: Shell Cracker: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic and x/material. Max 5 points Improved: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 1 point reduction on damage reduction x/magic, x/material and x/alignment. Max penalty=BAB. Greater: 1 point penalty on attack rolls for 2 points reduction on damage reduction x/any. Max penalty=BAB Thoughts on this? There are some balance issues that haven't been brought up yet. Giving the feat taker ability to overcome all alignment-based DR doesn't seem right. This should probably be restricted to the alignments of the character. This feat would be infringing on monk territory. One of the monk's class skills would be marginalized. Also, this feat would be available before the monk receives it. Monks get magic at 4th, lawful at 10th, and adamantine at 16th. Yes the monk's ability is superior because he doesn't have to sacrifice + to hit. But if you consider that the monk's BAB progression is inferior, it's pretty much a wash at low DR. A 12th lvl fighter w/ Greater can take -3 to hit to overcome DR 5 (using the newer 2x for Greater you proposed). A 12th lvl monk overcomes the DR for lawful and magic only, and is still at -3 in relation to the fighter (BAB 12 vs. BAB 9). It's still apples and oranges though. If the DR type is chaotic or silver, the monk's ability doesn't help him. As the DR increases, the feat taker's penalties also increase, but the monk's stays the same. There's also trying to balance it with power attack. There is no Improved or Greater Power Attack. ----- There are two ways I could see this working. One, make it simpler. Just have one feat that does DR/any and up to +5. It balances with power attack because it gives you access to all weapon types, but only works if the creature has DR. I made it BAB 4 in deference to the monk. Odds are characters won't be facing creatures with DR before that anyway. SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, BAB +4. Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and use the same number (+5 or less) to reduce some damage reductions of opponents hit, on your attack. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action. Any type of damage reduction is effected. Normal: A character without the Shell-cracker feat must deal with the damage reduction of opponents normally, by reducing the damage of each attack, or using the appropriate means to circumvent the damage reduction. Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. ----- The second way to do it would be more like what you've done, with a three feat progression. Here, I would limit the DR types, but expand the benefits. The first feat would be weaker, because it would become a stepping stone. SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, BAB +4. Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can take a penalty of as much as –5 on your attack roll and use the same number (+5 or less) to reduce some damage reductions of opponents hit, on your attack. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action. You must choose which type of DR you are able to overcome: magic, alignment (law-chaos axis), or alignment (good-evil axis). If choosing an alignment, you must be that alignment or neutral on that axis. Normal: A character without the Shell-cracker feat must deal with the damage reduction of opponents normally, by reducing the damage of each attack, or using the appropriate means to circumvent the damage reduction. Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, IMPROVED [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-cracker, BAB +8. Benefit: As Shell-cracker, but the limit becomes your BAB. You may choose a second type of DR he is able to overcome, with the same restrictions as the Shell-cracker feat. Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-cracker, Improved Shell-cracker, BAB +12. Benefit: As Improved Shell-cracker, except with the additional bonus that if the attack does no damage, any additional special effects occur as if damage had been done. You also receive the ability to overcome the third and final type of DR, with the same restrictions as the Shell-cracker feat. You should now be able to overcome magic, good or evil, and law or chaos. Normal: Whenever damage reduction completely negates the damage from an attack, it also negates most special effects that accompany the attack (DMG pg 292). Special: A fighter may select Shell-cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats.
xaqariah 02-27-07, 08:31 AM	Alrighty... now we're cookin'! I like the two ideas you have presented. Personally, I would like to keep with the feat-chain idea, so you get some scaling ability with it, along with the additional benefits. The ability to choose the types of DR you overcome, as you take the feats is an interesting feature. I also like the idea of keeping to your own alignment. I think we might want to include something along the lines, that if you are Neutral, and can Turn Undead (or plan on it) then you cannot choose Evil, and if you can Rebuke Undead (or plan on it) then you cannot choose Good. (actual wording would have to be hashed out...) As to the idea that if you don't do damage through the DR, your special effects get through anyway is something that favors a "less is more" strategy. It would be a good thing for characters that deal out little amounts of damage over a large number of attacks. It's an interesting twist that it helps out the Two Weapon Fighter, but stacks up to another three Feats to add on-top of everything needed to get Two Weapon Fighting to work. It also would help greatly with bow-users who might be having trouble getting 10-15 points of damage with a single arrow. The 1d6 Fire/Cold/Electricity damage still gets through. You could run into a problem, if you are near the DR threshold, but that would probably be more rare, than the norm. (although I'd have to see it in action on a couple of character builds, to know for sure) There is the odd case, where rolling average damage, would be less than the DR, allowing a couple of dice worth of Sheak Attack (or magical elemental type damage) through, but a good damage roll, or a critical hit will be more than the DR, and end up dealing out less damage. I'm still not sure if this is a good idea, or not, seeing as the last Feat would actually encourage you to not trade-in any BAB, to force the extra effect to trigger. Overall, lots of great ideas. I'd like to open that last effect up to discussion, before editing the original post, though. :D
GinTonic 02-27-07, 03:47 PM	The granting of the special damage w/ 0 damage dealt would be a bonus that is almost separate from the whole trading + to hit for DRR. It would be the payoff for investing in the full feat progression. Note that if you overcome enough DR to do damage, the special damage still happens. So there is no situation where rolling less damage is beneficial. What it would lead to is people sacrificing only +1, giving up pretty much any regular damage, solely to get the special damage. Before they get Greater, their only option is to pull out the stops to get past the DR to do special damage. Once they get Greater, they could still use that tactic if they want, but now they have the option of minimizing the sacrifice, probably hitting more, and relying on the special damage. Archers, thrown-weapon users, assassins, or other dagger users would get the most benefit from Greater, I think. The other classes should be able to do enough damage to overcome pretty much any DR by the time they have BAB +12.
benstundze 03-03-07, 03:03 PM	SHELL-CRACKER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, BAB 5 Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action, you can reduce some damage reduction of opponents hit, on your attack equal to 2. The changes to attack rolls and damage reduction last until your next action. Special: A fighter may select Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, IMPROVED [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Shell-Cracker Benefit: As Shell-Cracker, but 3 points of damage reduction. Special: A fighter may select Improved Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Improved Shell-Cracker Benefit: As Improved Shell-Cracker, but 3 points of damage reduction. Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, Improved GREATER [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, GREATER Shell-Cracker Benefit: As GREATER Shell-Cracker, but 4 points of damage reduction. Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, GREATER Grand [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, Improved GREATER Shell-Cracker Benefit: As Improved GREATER Shell-Cracker, but 5 points of damage reduction. 3+wis modifier times a day they can remove all DR from 1 target for 10 minutes Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. SHELL-CRACKER, ULTAMET [GENERAL] Prerequisite: Wis 13, GREATER Grand Shell-Cracker Benefit: As GREATER Grand Shell-Cracker, but 6 points of damage reduction. 5+wis modifier times a day they can remove all DR from 1 target for 15 minutes. Special: A fighter may select Greater Shell-Cracker as one of his fighter bonus feats. well? you like? ben