Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bkdubs123 09-20-07, 12:36 AM	So, I've been thinking about it lately, and it seems like there should be a more general way to deal "precision" damage as it is labeled. There is nothing inherent to being a Rogue that makes you better at placing your strikes than a fighter so as to deal "precision" damage. In fact in terms of game mechanics, the fighter's superior BAB means that he is the more accurate attacker. So, shouldn't there be a way to get some extra dice of damage for these more melee types (or for anyone for that matter than chooses to put in the effort)? Here are a couple new uses of existing skills to allow for these sorts of powerful damaging effects to be taken advantage of by other fighter types. There are bugs to be worked out here to be certain, but I present them here for you to tear them apart and perhaps, if I am quite lucky, to suggest ways to help fix them. Concentration New Use: Combat Meditation As a move action a warrior can re-ready himself preparing a devasting blow or a supremely accurate one. Depending on how high the check is, the warrior recieves greater benefit. Before making the check the warrior choose whether to effect his accuracy or his damage potential. 1-9: +0 to hit, +0d6 to damage 10-14: +1 to hit or +1d6 to damage 15-20: +3 to hit or +2d6 to damage 21-27: +5 to hit or +3d6 to damage 28-35: +7 to hit or +4d6 to damage 36-44: +10 to hit or +6d6 to damage 45-54: +12 to hit or +9d6 to damage 55-64: +15 to hit or +14d6 to damage 65-74: +20 to hit or +20d6 to damage Bluff New Use: Feign This use of the bluff skill is used to catch the opponent offguard through unorthodox combat manuevers. By making yourself seem less skilled or protected than you really are, you are capable of explosive attacks that opponents never see coming. Feign Opening: You relax your defenses to the point where it appears you aren't protecting yourself at all. You practically invite foes to strike. But it is all a ruse. As a swift action you adopt this docile stance and make a Bluff check. Each opponent threatening you makes a Sense Motive check against your Bluff. For each check you exceed that whenever the foe makes an attack against you and misses you may make an attack of opportunity. For each check that exceeds yours that foe gets a +2 circumstance bonus on attacks rolls made against you. You can maintain this stance over several rounds, but each round you must make opposed checks, although as long as you started the round in this stance you need not spend any action to maintain it. Any foes that have previously beaten your check do not need to oppose you and continue to receive the circumstance bonus to attacks as long as you maintain the stance. Feign Offensively: You conceal the nature of your attack until the last second, or appear to make one sort of attack, but change it once you've got your foe fooled causing a drastic blunder on the part of the enemy and allowing you to strike where it hurts most. As part of a single attack you may make a special Bluff check opposed by your opponent's Sense Motive. If you succeed the enemy is flat-footed against your attack and you deal extra damage based on how badly you beat your opponent's Sense Motive. Beat by 5 or less: +1d6 damage Beat by 6-10: +2d6 damage Beat by 11-15: +4d6 damage Beat by 16-20: +6d6 damage Beat by 21-25: +9d6 damage Beat by 26-30 or higher +12d6 damage
InkBlot 09-20-07, 08:47 AM	It's called Power Attack. Every situation in which Sneak Attack would apply also makes it easier for you to hit. So you Power Attack for the difference. In other words, when an enemy leaves an opening you can more easily hit a vital area. For example, Kordet the 2nd level fighter is flanking a bugbear with her friend Didal the 2nd level rogue. Didal has a +4 to hit and adds +1d6 sneak attack damage; when the bugbear turns to look at Kordet for a second, Didal stabs him in the kidneys. Kordet has a +6 to hit and Power Attacks for 2, adding +4 damage to her two-handed weapon; the bugbear turns around to see where his kidneys went, and giving Kordet the chance to stab into his spleen.
Puca 09-20-07, 10:21 AM	There's a variant fight in UA that gets SA as a rogue in lieu of bonus feats. In a way, your feats seem a bit overpowered. Comparing them to the Knowledge Devotion feat in CCmp (the only other feat I can think of off the top of my head that grants combat bonuses like this based on skill checks) yours can do a lot more damage. Balancing that, you have the action required and number of things out there immune to precision damage. Also not many full-BAB classes have Bluff as a class skill, and half dont have concentration.
EvilVegan 09-20-07, 10:31 AM	Power attack works for the most part. You just change the flavor of it to represent "careful aiming" giving you less of a chance to hit the target (because you're aiming for a specific/hard to reach spot). Plus, bonus, Power attack multiplies on a critical. Which ultimately makes it more "I hit the vitals" than sneak attack. I hit the vitals. I crit the vitals BOOYA!
tarkin 09-20-07, 10:54 AM	As others have stated there are a lot of precision damage stuff for non-rogues. Also note that Power Attack is a feat, not something given away to everyone for free. As a general rule, if you are going to create a new game mechanic it should be pretty worthless without at least one feat. One feat should make it viable, multiple feat should make it powerfull. That how Sunder, Disarm, Trip, etc. work.
murhe 09-20-07, 10:55 AM	Fighters tend to do their bonus damage with power attacks, extra attacks (with two weapon fighting or not), weapon focus and specilization feats and brute strenght. Those are always on. Playing rogue is about finding opportunies to use sneak attack. When rogue sneaks behind enemy he stabs dagger at kidneys. When fighter in same place he raises blade high and gives good srong hit with power attack and makes kill sure with few extra attacks. In both cases style is different, not the result. Every point of power attack is worth of 2 pts of damage with 2 handed weapon. This means every 2 points of BAB is slighty better than +1d6 sneak attack. When fighter gets multible attacks it is even better. Fighter may even take sure hits against high AC targets and he may aswell flank the enemy.
StruckingFuggle 09-20-07, 11:31 AM	Every point of power attack is worth of 2 pts of damage with 2 handed weapon. This means every 2 points of BAB is slighty better than +1d6 sneak attack. Unless you can cite math, I think that's not entirely true, because you're forgetting that to do the damage, you need to hit - and PA comes with a penalty to your attack roll, while sneak attack doesn't... When fighter gets multible attacks it is even better. Fighter may even take sure hits against high AC targets and he may aswell flank the enemy. ...which is even more pronounced on the iteratives, with -5, -10, or -15 to hit on top of the minuses you're taking from PA.
1 ton ghost 09-20-07, 01:06 PM	it's more a matter of flavor than mechanics for me. granted, you all have thought it out mathematically given BAB vs. dmg and so on. Ftrs focus on combat. they fight alot, hence the name. they are afforded more combat options and are better at them. more likely to pull of a trip, disarm, etc. than a rogue Ambushers (rogues/ninjas/etc) are usually d6 and must rely on more dishonoroable means of hurting ppl, hence "sneak attack" it's sneaky and unexpected. this makes up for the staggered BAB. they don't have as many combat options, well, they have the same amount, save bonus feat dependent ones Ftr's get, just a lesser chance. rogues bullrushing aren't as good as tanks. of course, not too many Ftr's are good face or boxmen either.
Matthew77 09-20-07, 01:22 PM	Unless you can cite math, I think that's not entirely true, because you're forgetting that to do the damage, you need to hit - and PA comes with a penalty to your attack roll, while sneak attack doesn't... Initial statement: Every 2 points of BAB is better than +1d6 of Sneak Attack damage, when using a two-handed weapon. Proof: Two-hander's BAB is 5 Sneak attacker's BAB is 3, and he has +1d6 SA If Two-hander power attacks for 2, and all other modifiers to total attack bonus are identical between the two, he will deal x+4 damage every time Sneak attacker deals x+1d6. 4 is greater than the average of 1d6, thus 2 points of BAB deal more average damage than +1d6 SA. iterative attacks follow the same logic, except in those cases when Two-hander gets an additional attack and Sneak attacker doesn't. In those cases, Two-hander does even better. So the original statement is true. +2 BAB with a two-handed weapon is better than +1d6 sneak attack. But, when looking at Fighters vs Rogues, the Rogue gains more than +1d6 SA for every 2 BAB the fighter gains, so while the statement is true, it is also irrelevant.
bkdubs123 09-20-07, 01:58 PM	Wow. Thanks for the lecture on Power Attack, guys! I had no idea how that worked! :P What book would I find the rules on Power Attack in? ... Okay, seriously, though, yeah, there's Power Attack. When I wrote this thread I was trying to go somewhere with a meleer that didn't involve using a greatsword and power attacking and charging all the time. I was trying to offer mechanics that could be used by more light fighters, swashbucklers, rangers and the like. I mean, you do realize that its just not everyone's style to run around hacking at things with a two-handed weapon right? You do realize that it isn't fun to try and play a Sword-and-Board character currently at lower levels because you have to pick up I don't know 3-5 feats before your decision is actually viable, right? And don't even get me started on the One-Hander with nothing in the offhand style of fighting. The mechanics I presented are flawed. The Concentration one because its easier for casters to take advantage of, The Bluff one because not many meleers have access to the skill at all. But can you see where they would be important to combat? Every warrior ought to be able to at least feint in combat proficiently, they may not be skilled liars, but those two actions are part of the same skill for now... What I'm asking for is not: "How can Fighter deal as much damage as Rogue?" What I am asking is: "Do these mechanics seem reasonable if I could work out the bugs?" "Would you use them?"
StruckingFuggle 09-20-07, 02:01 PM	Proof: Two-hander's BAB is 5 Sneak attacker's BAB is 3, and he has +1d6 SA Q.E.D., I am an idiot. I forgot about the BAB difference. Blarg. You are, indeed, correct (if you have +1d6 SA ... SA is better, when you can get it & deliver it, if you have more SA, though)
bkdubs123 09-21-07, 12:50 PM	Well, I'm glad everyone is apparently comfortable with their single build meleers. :rolleyes: