"Spontaneous Divination" form Complete Champion [Archive] - Wizards Community

"Spontaneous Divination" form Complete Champion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Father Dale
01-30-08, 04:40 PM I have a question regarding the alternative class feature for wizards found in Complete Champion called Spontaneous Divination. (see page 52)

First, I'm guessing, so correct me if I'm wrong, that in order to acquire this ability, the wizard essentially gives up ONE of his bonus wizard feats, as opposed to giving up ALL of them.

Second, and more importantly: the description says that the wizard can then cast spontaneously "any spell of the divination school" by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level. So, can such a wizard spontaneously cast ANY? divination spells, including those that he has not learned or added to his spell book?

I'm leaning towards an interpretation of he must have learned the spell and added it to his spellbook, as otherwise it seems like a wizard could take this ability and then have spontaneous access to each and every arcane spell from the divination school that exists, without having to learn the spell. Thus, any wizard with this ability would not have to learn any divination spells whatsoever, as he can just spontaneously cast them as he so desires. That seems a bit much and a bit out of touch with how wizards generally are played.

So, any thoughts on any of this? Thanks in advance for responding...
LSMFT
01-30-08, 05:16 PM I have a question regarding the alternative class feature for wizards found in Complete Champion called Spontaneous Divination. (see page 52)

First, I'm guessing, so correct me if I'm wrong, that in order to acquire this ability, the wizard essentially gives up ONE of his bonus wizard feats, as opposed to giving up ALL of them. That's how I read it.

Second, and more importantly: the description says that the wizard can then cast spontaneously "any spell of the divination school" by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level. So, can such a wizard spontaneously cast ANY? divination spells, including those that he has not learned or added to his spell book? I was in a debate on this a while ago on the classes board. I'll see if I can track it down.

Basically, there were three view points:
1) It means any and every divination spell even ones from other class lists.
2) It means any divination spell on your class list.
3) It means any divination spell "you know" i.e. in your book.

I'm leaning towards an interpretation of he must have learned the spell and added it to his spellbook, as otherwise it seems like a wizard could take this ability and then have spontaneous access to each and every arcane spell from the divination school that exists, without having to learn the spell. Thus, any wizard with this ability would not have to learn any divination spells whatsoever, as he can just spontaneously cast them as he so desires. That seems a bit much and a bit out of touch with how wizards generally are played.#3. That was the position I took, and I was pretty well trounced in the debate. I agree with you in principle, in fact I was so sure I was right that I actually believed that the words "that you know" were in the text and said so, incorrectly, to my embarrassment.

But, no matter how sound the principle, the text says "any spell of the divination school." While it was generally agreed that the fact that it had to be on your class list was implied, as it doesn't specifically say that you can go off the list, there just isn't the textual support for the "in you book" conclusion I, and you, would probably prefer.

Edit: Found that old thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958933), if you care to check it out.
Father Dale
01-30-08, 06:14 PM Thank you very much for your input and the reference to the other thread! I had done a search for just such a thread but couldn't find it...

After reviewing what was said in the other thread, I am reluctantly forced to agree that ANY spell would mean "any spell on your class spell list."

However, as I am the DM in the game in question, I will be houseruling that you must have learned the spell per the rules for wizards learning spells. After that point, you can spontaneously cast such spells per the ability. However, such spells do not need to be scribed into a spellbook, nor does the wizard have to have access to a spellbook that has such spells, nor does the wizard even have to have a spellbook (say it was lost or destroyed).

I just can't abide the idea of a wizard spending essentially a single feat to instantaneously get unlimited and unfettered access to every single spell in a particular school.
Xeorsos
01-31-08, 06:16 AM My Wizard took this substitution feat about 7 levels ago, and let me *please* be the first to tell you that it's not overpowered. Divination is a powerful story progressing school, with most of its spells not really doing much in the way of combat. Certain spells, like true seeing and unluck, can make a world of difference in combat, but beyond that... nope, not that overpowered.

My DM went with the ruling of any divination, wizard or not. It gave me access to quite a few spells I didn't have before, and gave me a few "neat" spells that didn't do much but add flavor to the game. It DID, however, give me True Seeing 1 level sooner (clerics get it at 5th), and Legend Lore 3 levels earlier (Bards get it at 6th). But other than that, it hasn't really changed the game too much in terms of power.

It's worth noting, though, that a good chunk of this decision to allow all divination spells rather than simply known wizard ones comes from my prestige class (Rainbow Servant) that will eventually grant my character cleric spell access.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Father Dale 01-30-08, 04:40 PM	I have a question regarding the alternative class feature for wizards found in Complete Champion called Spontaneous Divination. (see page 52) First, I'm guessing, so correct me if I'm wrong, that in order to acquire this ability, the wizard essentially gives up ONE of his bonus wizard feats, as opposed to giving up ALL of them. Second, and more importantly: the description says that the wizard can then cast spontaneously "any spell of the divination school" by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level. So, can such a wizard spontaneously cast ANY? divination spells, including those that he has not learned or added to his spell book? I'm leaning towards an interpretation of he must have learned the spell and added it to his spellbook, as otherwise it seems like a wizard could take this ability and then have spontaneous access to each and every arcane spell from the divination school that exists, without having to learn the spell. Thus, any wizard with this ability would not have to learn any divination spells whatsoever, as he can just spontaneously cast them as he so desires. That seems a bit much and a bit out of touch with how wizards generally are played. So, any thoughts on any of this? Thanks in advance for responding...
LSMFT 01-30-08, 05:16 PM	I have a question regarding the alternative class feature for wizards found in Complete Champion called Spontaneous Divination. (see page 52) First, I'm guessing, so correct me if I'm wrong, that in order to acquire this ability, the wizard essentially gives up ONE of his bonus wizard feats, as opposed to giving up ALL of them. That's how I read it. Second, and more importantly: the description says that the wizard can then cast spontaneously "any spell of the divination school" by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level. So, can such a wizard spontaneously cast ANY? divination spells, including those that he has not learned or added to his spell book? I was in a debate on this a while ago on the classes board. I'll see if I can track it down. Basically, there were three view points: 1) It means any and every divination spell even ones from other class lists. 2) It means any divination spell on your class list. 3) It means any divination spell "you know" i.e. in your book. I'm leaning towards an interpretation of he must have learned the spell and added it to his spellbook, as otherwise it seems like a wizard could take this ability and then have spontaneous access to each and every arcane spell from the divination school that exists, without having to learn the spell. Thus, any wizard with this ability would not have to learn any divination spells whatsoever, as he can just spontaneously cast them as he so desires. That seems a bit much and a bit out of touch with how wizards generally are played.#3. That was the position I took, and I was pretty well trounced in the debate. I agree with you in principle, in fact I was so sure I was right that I actually believed that the words "that you know" were in the text and said so, incorrectly, to my embarrassment. But, no matter how sound the principle, the text says "any spell of the divination school." While it was generally agreed that the fact that it had to be on your class list was implied, as it doesn't specifically say that you can go off the list, there just isn't the textual support for the "in you book" conclusion I, and you, would probably prefer. Edit: Found that old thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=958933), if you care to check it out.
Father Dale 01-30-08, 06:14 PM	Thank you very much for your input and the reference to the other thread! I had done a search for just such a thread but couldn't find it... After reviewing what was said in the other thread, I am reluctantly forced to agree that ANY spell would mean "any spell on your class spell list." However, as I am the DM in the game in question, I will be houseruling that you must have learned the spell per the rules for wizards learning spells. After that point, you can spontaneously cast such spells per the ability. However, such spells do not need to be scribed into a spellbook, nor does the wizard have to have access to a spellbook that has such spells, nor does the wizard even have to have a spellbook (say it was lost or destroyed). I just can't abide the idea of a wizard spending essentially a single feat to instantaneously get unlimited and unfettered access to every single spell in a particular school.
Xeorsos 01-31-08, 06:16 AM	My Wizard took this substitution feat about 7 levels ago, and let me please be the first to tell you that it's not overpowered. Divination is a powerful story progressing school, with most of its spells not really doing much in the way of combat. Certain spells, like true seeing and unluck, can make a world of difference in combat, but beyond that... nope, not that overpowered. My DM went with the ruling of any divination, wizard or not. It gave me access to quite a few spells I didn't have before, and gave me a few "neat" spells that didn't do much but add flavor to the game. It DID, however, give me True Seeing 1 level sooner (clerics get it at 5th), and Legend Lore 3 levels earlier (Bards get it at 6th). But other than that, it hasn't really changed the game too much in terms of power. It's worth noting, though, that a good chunk of this decision to allow all divination spells rather than simply known wizard ones comes from my prestige class (Rainbow Servant) that will eventually grant my character cleric spell access.