Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Nicholas the Paladin 12-13-07, 09:37 AM	I thought I understood, but there it is again: another HiPS question. This time it's about the dark-creature variant (ToM). I get the feeling there are a lot of versions of this ability, so I guess it's relevant. I thought I had it pinned: HiPS only let's you Hide in another condition, namely when being observed. So normally you couldn't hide in Torchlight...but then I read the HiPS from ToM. "You can Hide while being observed, except in natural daylight and the 'daylight' spell"... so with this version of HiPS you could Hide in normal torchlight. Correct? (I guess the Shadowdancer(DMG) version of HiPS is the strongest version around. But this one is pretty nice too)
Taren 12-13-07, 11:19 AM	from my understanding you can noramlly hide while being observed, you just have to have concealment. Hid ein plain sight is just that. you are in plain sight...and you can hide...
Dheran 12-13-07, 04:14 PM	Taren is correct. If the description of a particular version of Hide in Plain Sight doesn't have a line like:a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behindthen that HiPS still requires cover/concealment. All Extraordinary (Ex) versions of HiPS require cover/concealment. The Ranger class has a separate ability, Camouflage, that substitutes for concealment in natural terrain. The Supernatural (Su) forms of HiPS (Shadowdancer and Assassin) are the only ones that don't need "anything to actually hide behind".
Nicholas the Paladin 12-14-07, 12:06 PM	All Extraordinary (Ex) versions of HiPS require cover/concealment. The Ranger class has a separate ability, Camouflage, that substitutes for concealment in natural terrain. The Supernatural (Su) forms of HiPS (Shadowdancer and Assassin) are the only ones that don't need "anything to actually hide behind". THis ToM-version is indeed an Ex-ability. What you say does sound reasonable, but then again why does it say: "You can Hide while being observed, except in natural daylight and the 'daylight' spell"... Am I misinterpreting? Does the Ex-Hips only work in?: - the situation there is no natural daylight (night, underground, under tree foilage) - and, where there's concealment. The Su-Hips works something like a superior improved invisibility: - any situation, out in the open en during the day - just as long there's *a* shadow 10ft nearby.
Captain_Kobold 12-14-07, 01:46 PM	I would read that version to mean that you have the normal Ex-HiPS ability, still requiring enough cover of concealment to be able to hide. In the presence of daylight however, you lose the HiPS ability, and so must create a distraction before you can hide, using the usual rules to the hide skill. The presence of daylight does not rule out cover/concealment, only that provided by darkness. I think you only lose the HiPS ability because it is anathema to your nature as a creature of night. Thus you would have no problems using your HiPS ability in torchlight, provided that there is sufficient concealment for you to hide.
Taren 12-14-07, 02:26 PM	THis ToM-version is indeed an Ex-ability. What you say does sound reasonable, but then again why does it say: "You can Hide while being observed, except in natural daylight and the 'daylight' spell"... because you normally can't hide while being observed, and you normally have to have the condition "concealment" in order to hide. in this instance you don't.
Nicholas the Paladin 12-14-07, 03:20 PM	I would read that version to mean that you have the normal Ex-HiPS ability, still requiring enough cover of concealment to be able to hide. In the presence of daylight however, you lose the HiPS ability, and so must create a distraction before you can hide, using the usual rules to the hide skill. Hmm, that's not somthing I though about (loosing the ability in daylight), but I kinda like it (themewise). I'm not sure if this makes the ability more clear in its use though. The presence of daylight does not rule out cover/concealment, only that provided by darkness. I think you only lose the HiPS ability because it is anathema to your nature as a creature of night. Thus you would have no problems using your HiPS ability in torchlight, provided that there is sufficient concealment for you to hide.Well, that's why I asked this question in the first place: normally you *don't* have concealment in torchlight, so you can't Hide in it. I got confused by the "You can Hide while being observed, except in natural daylight and the 'daylight' spell". Because I interpreted it as: - you can Hide in softer light, like that of torches. But now I kinda feel that it should be: - you can't Hide in Daylight - for the rest it's like normal Hide, but you can do it while being observed.
Dheran 12-15-07, 08:33 PM	But now I kinda feel that it should be: - you can't Hide in Daylight - for the rest it's like normal Hide, but you can do it while being observed. You've pegged it, Nicholas. You might also want to think about it from a balance perspective. Would it make sense for an inexpensive template to provide the same benefit as a prestige class with steep entry requirements? It doesn't, to me.
Meep222 12-19-07, 09:15 PM	I has a HiPS question: the Illusionist variant gives HiPS as: "At 15th level, the illusionist can hide in plain sight (as the ranger ability, except that the illusionist need not be in natural terrain)." (From d20srd.com) Does this mean I can hide anywhere under any conditions? Not sure if it's SU or EX, don't have the book in front of me. Can he also combine that with: "At 20th level, the illusionist gains the ability to blend into shadows. In any condition of illumination that would normally grant the illusionist concealment, he instead gains total concealment (as if he were invisible)." To be extra invisible?
Nicholas the Paladin 12-20-07, 04:37 AM	You've pegged it, Nicholas. You might also want to think about it from a balance perspective. Would it make sense for an inexpensive template to provide the same benefit as a prestige class with steep entry requirements? It doesn't, to me. Okay, and what about 'darkvision'? Does darkvision negate the ability to hide in shadows with HiPS? This would really tune down the ability; giving you merely the chance to hide using 'cover' (and not 'concealment').
Captain_Kobold 12-20-07, 09:48 AM	I has a HiPS question: the Illusionist variant gives HiPS as: "At 15th level, the illusionist can hide in plain sight (as the ranger ability, except that the illusionist need not be in natural terrain)." (From d20srd.com) Does this mean I can hide anywhere under any conditions? No. It means that you can hide whilst being observed. You still need enough cover or concealment for a valid Hide check. Not sure if it's SU or EX, don't have the book in front of me. Can he also combine that with: "At 20th level, the illusionist gains the ability to blend into shadows. In any condition of illumination that would normally grant the illusionist concealment, he instead gains total concealment (as if he were invisible)." To be extra invisible? It just means that you go invisible when in enough shadows to grant you concealment. Thus no Hide check required. (Until you run into someone with Darkvision of course. ) Okay, and what about 'darkvision'? Does darkvision negate the ability to hide in shadows with HiPS? This would really tune down the ability; giving you merely the chance to hide using 'cover' (and not 'concealment'). You need cover or concealment to use HiPS. Against someone with Darkvision, shadows do not give any concealment.
Taren 12-20-07, 10:06 AM	You need cover or concealment to use HiPS. Against someone with Darkvision, shadows do not give any concealment. you don't need concealment to use Hide in Plain sight, you simply need to meet the conditions for the dark template you can be within the radius of torchlight. and you can hide against creatures with darkvision. even while being observed.
Nicholas the Paladin 12-20-07, 11:32 AM	you don't need concealment to use Hide in Plain sight, you simply need to meet the conditions for the dark template you can be within the radius of torchlight. and you can hide against creatures with darkvision. even while being observed. I don't follow. Say again?
Dheran 12-20-07, 03:56 PM	Okay, and what about 'darkvision'? Does darkvision negate the ability to hide in shadows with HiPS? There is no "hide in shadows" in D&D 3.5; you're thinking of the old 2nd Edition AD&D thief ability. If you're talking about the Supernatural (Shadowdancer/Assassin) version of HiPS these shadows merely need to exist, somewhere nearby:Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. There's no requirement that there be anything at all to block line of sight of any potential viewers, so it doesn't matter at all whether a viewer might be using normal vision, low-light vision, or darkvision, or even if they have line of sight to those nearby shadows. The Shadowdancer can Hide, while being watched, with nothing blocking the observer's line of sight. It's Supernatural; i.e., magic.
Nicholas the Paladin 12-20-07, 04:06 PM	:nonono: you seems to have forgotten that's it's the Ex-ability from the Dark-creature-template that I'm talking about. So Darkvision doens't affect that HiPS ability to hide?
Dheran 12-20-07, 04:22 PM	:nonono: you seems to have forgotten that's it's the Ex-ability from the Dark-creature-template that I'm talking about. I thought I knew what you were talking about until you mentioned "hide in shadows", which sounds closest to the Supernatural Shadowdancer/Assassin ability. So Darkvision doens't affect that HiPS ability to hide? No, not directly. It may reduce the chances of obtaining concealment, but darkvision won't help against cover, or against some form of concealment like fog or smoke that physically interposes particles between the observer and the target.