Another Spellcraft question.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Another Spellcraft question.. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
sijigs
07-14-07, 01:21 AM (Patience required please)

*ahem*

I'm currently playing a psion and have ranks in psicraft (of course).

1. Under magic-psionic transparency, can I use this skill to identify what spell Mr.Arcane Caster or Mr.Divine Caster is casting? And vice versa?

2. Does anyone else feel that Spellcraft is an overpowered skill?

Thank you in advance for the help. :)
Kouk
07-14-07, 01:57 AM Yes or No, depending on the DM.

Spellcraft isn't overpowered, because there isn't really anything you can do in most cases just by recognizing a spell. It is nearly impossible to identify when a psionicist is using a power anyway, especially since they can suppress all manifestations.
sijigs
07-15-07, 01:34 AM Spellcraft isn't overpowered, because there isn't really anything you can do in most cases just by recognizing a spell.

Only if your PC has 5 Int. If you know it's a fireball coming.. you can still have an immediate action. It's life and death "most cases".

Or.. "hey.. our Barbarian is being charmed"..

It is nearly impossible to identify when a psionicist is using a power anyway, especially since they can suppress all manifestations.

1. A psionicist has to make a check to do this. So in this instance, either impose a -5 (or whatever) to the check or don't allow it.

2. Even if a psion suppresses and you can see the after-effects of the power then why not?

I recently played an Ultimate Magi and no way I'm ever spending skill points on Knowledge unless I'm qualifying for a PrC.

Guess it comes down to the DM, too.
Kouk
07-15-07, 07:50 AM Well, it does appear in the book that by default Spellcraft and Psicraft are still different skills even with transparency. Several people I know roll them together, and treat Psionics as just a third form of magic, so that there is Arcane, Divine and Psionic. With psionic-magic transparency, the effects already interact with each other like they were all spells after all.

Only if your PC has 5 Int. If you know it's a fireball coming.. you can still have an immediate action. It's life and death "most cases".

Or.. "hey.. our Barbarian is being charmed"..

I'll grant you it is good to know when a strange effect is being placed on your group. Would you prefer that nobody knew what was going on but the caster? Just identifying a spell or effect with Spellcraft does not negate it, it just allows you to respond to it. That's the main purpose of Spellcraft, to know what is going on, whether in combat or on a scroll.

There are very few Immediate action spells, and even so, what would be the point of their existence to counter a spell effect if you could not identify a spell?

I'm not sure what you are seeing is overpowered about it, but how would you fix Spellcraft?

The issue of hiding displays is very significant. According to the Psicraft skill table, to identify a power being manifested:(You must sense the power’s display, or see some visible effect, to identify a power.)

If your DM opts to treat Spellcraft and Psicraft as one and the same, then I don't see why Spellcraft could identify a power without displays if Psicraft can't.

The DC to manifest without any displays is just 15 + Spell level -- a level 5 character could do this quite reliably with max ranks and some Int bonuses. There is also no penalty for failure, so odds are a psionicist that did not want you to know what was going on would always be attempting to manifest without displays.

If manifested without any displays, your only option is trying to use the "Identify a Power already in effect".

Identifying a spell that was already cast is a DC 20 + Spell Level Spellcraft check, but you would need some way to perceive the effects. For instance, a Wall of Fire could be easily examined with a Spellcraft check while it is in existence, even if the character didn't see or succeed on the check to identify the spell as it was cast. Charm Person on the other hand would be much more difficult to be aware of, and you need to use Sense Motive to be aware that someone is being magically influenced. Same goes with Psicraft.

Why would you intentionally avoid Knowledge skills by the way? How else would your character know what he was fighting against without heavy metagaming?
Candin
07-15-07, 03:58 PM Probably because his DM never uses them.

My character has a lot of ranks in knowledge planes. I've never had the opportunity to use it, and I've argued for why I should merit a roll on a couple of occassions.
sijigs
07-15-07, 05:55 PM I'm not sure what you are seeing is overpowered about it, but how would you fix Spellcraft?

I guess some skills are just way more useful than others in the DnD landscape and spellcraft being one of them - so I guess I'll just leave it at that. I think a good start to fix it would be to increase the DC of a spell/power that's not in your spell/power list.

Why would you intentionally avoid Knowledge skills by the way? How else would your character know what he was fighting against without heavy metagaming?

@ Candin
LOL - damn right! It's just a skill that can be easily nerfed by ".. you just don't know it".. or the DC is 45(!!).

Whereas a spellcraft or jump check of 25 can't be refuted. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
sijigs 07-14-07, 01:21 AM	(Patience required please) ahem I'm currently playing a psion and have ranks in psicraft (of course). 1. Under magic-psionic transparency, can I use this skill to identify what spell Mr.Arcane Caster or Mr.Divine Caster is casting? And vice versa? 2. Does anyone else feel that Spellcraft is an overpowered skill? Thank you in advance for the help. :)
Kouk 07-14-07, 01:57 AM	Yes or No, depending on the DM. Spellcraft isn't overpowered, because there isn't really anything you can do in most cases just by recognizing a spell. It is nearly impossible to identify when a psionicist is using a power anyway, especially since they can suppress all manifestations.
sijigs 07-15-07, 01:34 AM	Spellcraft isn't overpowered, because there isn't really anything you can do in most cases just by recognizing a spell. Only if your PC has 5 Int. If you know it's a fireball coming.. you can still have an immediate action. It's life and death "most cases". Or.. "hey.. our Barbarian is being charmed".. It is nearly impossible to identify when a psionicist is using a power anyway, especially since they can suppress all manifestations. 1. A psionicist has to make a check to do this. So in this instance, either impose a -5 (or whatever) to the check or don't allow it. 2. Even if a psion suppresses and you can see the after-effects of the power then why not? I recently played an Ultimate Magi and no way I'm ever spending skill points on Knowledge unless I'm qualifying for a PrC. Guess it comes down to the DM, too.
Kouk 07-15-07, 07:50 AM	Well, it does appear in the book that by default Spellcraft and Psicraft are still different skills even with transparency. Several people I know roll them together, and treat Psionics as just a third form of magic, so that there is Arcane, Divine and Psionic. With psionic-magic transparency, the effects already interact with each other like they were all spells after all. Only if your PC has 5 Int. If you know it's a fireball coming.. you can still have an immediate action. It's life and death "most cases". Or.. "hey.. our Barbarian is being charmed".. I'll grant you it is good to know when a strange effect is being placed on your group. Would you prefer that nobody knew what was going on but the caster? Just identifying a spell or effect with Spellcraft does not negate it, it just allows you to respond to it. That's the main purpose of Spellcraft, to know what is going on, whether in combat or on a scroll. There are very few Immediate action spells, and even so, what would be the point of their existence to counter a spell effect if you could not identify a spell? I'm not sure what you are seeing is overpowered about it, but how would you fix Spellcraft? The issue of hiding displays is very significant. According to the Psicraft skill table, to identify a power being manifested:(You must sense the power’s display, or see some visible effect, to identify a power.) If your DM opts to treat Spellcraft and Psicraft as one and the same, then I don't see why Spellcraft could identify a power without displays if Psicraft can't. The DC to manifest without any displays is just 15 + Spell level -- a level 5 character could do this quite reliably with max ranks and some Int bonuses. There is also no penalty for failure, so odds are a psionicist that did not want you to know what was going on would always be attempting to manifest without displays. If manifested without any displays, your only option is trying to use the "Identify a Power already in effect". Identifying a spell that was already cast is a DC 20 + Spell Level Spellcraft check, but you would need some way to perceive the effects. For instance, a Wall of Fire could be easily examined with a Spellcraft check while it is in existence, even if the character didn't see or succeed on the check to identify the spell as it was cast. Charm Person on the other hand would be much more difficult to be aware of, and you need to use Sense Motive to be aware that someone is being magically influenced. Same goes with Psicraft. Why would you intentionally avoid Knowledge skills by the way? How else would your character know what he was fighting against without heavy metagaming?
Candin 07-15-07, 03:58 PM	Probably because his DM never uses them. My character has a lot of ranks in knowledge planes. I've never had the opportunity to use it, and I've argued for why I should merit a roll on a couple of occassions.
sijigs 07-15-07, 05:55 PM	I'm not sure what you are seeing is overpowered about it, but how would you fix Spellcraft? I guess some skills are just way more useful than others in the DnD landscape and spellcraft being one of them - so I guess I'll just leave it at that. I think a good start to fix it would be to increase the DC of a spell/power that's not in your spell/power list. Why would you intentionally avoid Knowledge skills by the way? How else would your character know what he was fighting against without heavy metagaming? @ Candin LOL - damn right! It's just a skill that can be easily nerfed by ".. you just don't know it".. or the DC is 45(!!). Whereas a spellcraft or jump check of 25 can't be refuted. ;)