Appraise [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Appraise [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rogerd
05-06-07, 09:42 AM I'm running a dungeon crawl at the moment. The party just found a bunch of art items. During the session, we just recorded what they found, e.g. "silver brooch".

I would like for the Appraise skill to have relevance to my campaign. What I thought to do was to roll for each character, for each item and Appraise check (DC 15). They are all untrained, with varying INT modifiers and Dwarfiness.

The question I have to answer now is how to use the results. The treasure is all quite portable, so it will all be carried home and sold. Normally, you sell art, gems and jewelry for full price. It seems like the sale price should be affected by the appraise checks.

When you do this, you can get one of these results:
1. No estimate. It's unclear what price I should give the players in this case.

2. One estimate (low). This is the clearest case - just give the players the value they're asking for.

3. One estimate (high). The merchant clearly won't pay the player's asking price. He might go as high as 100%. I guess the question here is, is there a penalty for a high estimate?

4. Multiple estimates. These could be all high, all low, mixed or even possibly all on the money.

What I'm really looking to figure out is the best way to use this information to work out a sale price.

I expect that the buying merchant will have scales, magnifying glass, decent INT, appropriate crafting skill and actual ranks in Appraise, so he'll be able to auto-appraise the value of the item, taking 10.

How have you used Appraise in your campaign? Does anyone bother?

Roger
Rhuxley
05-06-07, 01:54 PM I have appraise in the campaign in which we currently play, and yeah I bother. When we find art, I appraise it, and way before it gets sold, we often use the art items as currency between group members. If someone wants that ring of invisibility, they can have it, but I get more art objects from the pot.
So yeah, the penalty for a high appraise check is that when someone takes a magic item out, the treasure is sometimes uneven cuz someone appraises the art too high, and they think they have more treasure than they do.
Obviously the downside for under appraising an art objest is that when you tell the merchant to give you 50gp for a 300gp item, he doesnt skoff at you, he just pays you 50gp.

The trick is having high appraise & bluff skill modifiers. That way you can tell the gems are worth 300gp, then tell the party they are worth whatever, and trust in their low appraise modifier to fail hopefully meaning that at least one of them will get near what you appraised. Merchants would use this tactic often.
Kouk
05-07-07, 03:08 AM The actual price is set from whenever you place the treasure normally, so to use Appraise to influence the sale price would assume that the NPC merchants are always trying to cheat you (which makes sense) and you would need a good Appraise skill to know when they were being honest or not.

Usually Appraise is only used in my groups if we find something weird like a big piece of twisted glass that is either some kind of art or some kind of random broken trash and we aren't sure if we should carry the weight. I don't care much for haggling with NPCs and I don't think anyone else I play with does either so Appraise tends to not be trained.

If you as DM plan on having NPCs try to cheat or "make a good deal" when they buy from players make sure they know that in advance so they can take the precaution of training in Appraise or finding a friendly NPC with a good skill check they can go to that won't cheat them.
darkeness
05-07-07, 10:33 AM The question I have to answer now is how to use the results. The treasure is all quite portable, so it will all be carried home and sold. Normally, you sell art, gems and jewelry for full price. It seems like the sale price should be affected by the appraise checks.
Assuming that the party is working togeather on appraising the items what I do is have 1 person roll for the appraise and the others assist. I also do not allow the players to sell back art objects for full price, I genereally give them 50% value for those items. Is it stated in RAW that art objects sell at full price? A case might be made for a rare item to be sold at full price to a collector and in a heavy rp game that might work.

The trick is having high appraise & bluff skill modifiers. That way you can tell the gems are worth 300gp, then tell the party they are worth whatever, and trust in their low appraise modifier to fail hopefully meaning that at least one of them will get near what you appraised. Merchants would use this tactic often.

Merchants would, yes. Player vs Player I would not allow it as a DM and if another player tried it with me as a player I would coup de grace him the first chance I got. I would then leave the game. I always felt D&D was supposed to be about team play and cooperation among the players and don't participate in games that go against that idea.
tarkin
05-07-07, 12:37 PM Wow. Learn something new every day. As Vegepygmy shows me below, RAW does let you sell art objects at full price.

I stand corrected.
--------

Here is my optional rule for Appraisal.

Failure by 10 or worse = no idea.
Failure by 9-5 or less and you have underestimated the value by 1d6*10%
Failure by 1-4 = you have overestimated the value by 1d20*10%.
Hit the score = proper price without any extras.
by +5 = roll 1d2. If you roll 1, you notice a minor item price bumper(10%), such as the fact that it is a in the style of X and is worth more. If you roll a 2, it has no such price bumper.
By +10 = roll 1d4. 1= minor price bump, +10%. 2 = notice the creator's name, price bump 25%. 3/4 = no help.
By +15 = roll 1d6. 1 = 10%, 2 = 25%, 3 = Know a collector, can get 50% higher. 4-5 = no help.
By +20 = rol 1d8 1=10%,2=25%,3=50%, 4 = know someone that really wants that PARTICULAR piece = +10%
5-8 = no help.
Vegepygmy
05-07-07, 12:54 PM There is nothing in RAW/FAQ to let anything sell at full price.:teach: Ahem.

SELLING LOOT
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price.

Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself. Wheat, flour, cloth, gems, jewelry, art objects, and valuable metals are trade goods, and merchants often trade in them directly without using currency (see Table 7–3: Trade Goods). Obviously, merchants can sell these goods for slightly more than they pay for them, but the difference is small enough that you don’t have to worry about it.
darkeness
05-07-07, 01:59 PM Originally Posted by PHB, page 112
SELLING LOOT
In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price.

Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself. Wheat, flour, cloth, gems, jewelry, art objects, and valuable metals are trade goods, and merchants often trade in them directly without using currency (see Table 7–3: Trade Goods). Obviously, merchants can sell these goods for slightly more than they pay for them, but the difference is small enough that you don’t have to worry about it.

Thanks V, now I will really have to make my players work that appraise check. (Don't know how I ever missed that part of the trade goods section!)
tarkin
05-07-07, 02:09 PM I stand corrected.
rogerd
05-09-07, 06:15 PM Thanks for all the replies. I don't think the players benefit from using the Assist Other option. With 6 players rolling, someone's bound to make the DC 15 check, or so I found. The actual estimates are 2d6+3 * 10% of the value, and this is completely unaffected by the check result (as written anyway), so you really want more checks.

I thought of an "appraisal tax" idea. Since the party doesn't have an appraiser, they can go to a professional appraiser to get the values of the stuff they found, for a fee based on time spent (should be a relatively small fee).

I thought it was interesting to have a rogue that uses his knowledge against the party, but I'm trying to encourage a party that uses teamwork. I can see that being a nice way to "steal from the party" without actually picking any pockets though!

I suppose I can dig up the barter rules and just use them for the trade goods - seems like good Diplomacy could help here, and maybe other skills would synergize as well. Of course, the NPC's are specialists, so it may be a bit difficult to beat them if you haven't taken the skills!

Roger

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rogerd 05-06-07, 09:42 AM	I'm running a dungeon crawl at the moment. The party just found a bunch of art items. During the session, we just recorded what they found, e.g. "silver brooch". I would like for the Appraise skill to have relevance to my campaign. What I thought to do was to roll for each character, for each item and Appraise check (DC 15). They are all untrained, with varying INT modifiers and Dwarfiness. The question I have to answer now is how to use the results. The treasure is all quite portable, so it will all be carried home and sold. Normally, you sell art, gems and jewelry for full price. It seems like the sale price should be affected by the appraise checks. When you do this, you can get one of these results: 1. No estimate. It's unclear what price I should give the players in this case. 2. One estimate (low). This is the clearest case - just give the players the value they're asking for. 3. One estimate (high). The merchant clearly won't pay the player's asking price. He might go as high as 100%. I guess the question here is, is there a penalty for a high estimate? 4. Multiple estimates. These could be all high, all low, mixed or even possibly all on the money. What I'm really looking to figure out is the best way to use this information to work out a sale price. I expect that the buying merchant will have scales, magnifying glass, decent INT, appropriate crafting skill and actual ranks in Appraise, so he'll be able to auto-appraise the value of the item, taking 10. How have you used Appraise in your campaign? Does anyone bother? Roger
Rhuxley 05-06-07, 01:54 PM	I have appraise in the campaign in which we currently play, and yeah I bother. When we find art, I appraise it, and way before it gets sold, we often use the art items as currency between group members. If someone wants that ring of invisibility, they can have it, but I get more art objects from the pot. So yeah, the penalty for a high appraise check is that when someone takes a magic item out, the treasure is sometimes uneven cuz someone appraises the art too high, and they think they have more treasure than they do. Obviously the downside for under appraising an art objest is that when you tell the merchant to give you 50gp for a 300gp item, he doesnt skoff at you, he just pays you 50gp. The trick is having high appraise & bluff skill modifiers. That way you can tell the gems are worth 300gp, then tell the party they are worth whatever, and trust in their low appraise modifier to fail hopefully meaning that at least one of them will get near what you appraised. Merchants would use this tactic often.
Kouk 05-07-07, 03:08 AM	The actual price is set from whenever you place the treasure normally, so to use Appraise to influence the sale price would assume that the NPC merchants are always trying to cheat you (which makes sense) and you would need a good Appraise skill to know when they were being honest or not. Usually Appraise is only used in my groups if we find something weird like a big piece of twisted glass that is either some kind of art or some kind of random broken trash and we aren't sure if we should carry the weight. I don't care much for haggling with NPCs and I don't think anyone else I play with does either so Appraise tends to not be trained. If you as DM plan on having NPCs try to cheat or "make a good deal" when they buy from players make sure they know that in advance so they can take the precaution of training in Appraise or finding a friendly NPC with a good skill check they can go to that won't cheat them.
darkeness 05-07-07, 10:33 AM	The question I have to answer now is how to use the results. The treasure is all quite portable, so it will all be carried home and sold. Normally, you sell art, gems and jewelry for full price. It seems like the sale price should be affected by the appraise checks. Assuming that the party is working togeather on appraising the items what I do is have 1 person roll for the appraise and the others assist. I also do not allow the players to sell back art objects for full price, I genereally give them 50% value for those items. Is it stated in RAW that art objects sell at full price? A case might be made for a rare item to be sold at full price to a collector and in a heavy rp game that might work. The trick is having high appraise & bluff skill modifiers. That way you can tell the gems are worth 300gp, then tell the party they are worth whatever, and trust in their low appraise modifier to fail hopefully meaning that at least one of them will get near what you appraised. Merchants would use this tactic often. Merchants would, yes. Player vs Player I would not allow it as a DM and if another player tried it with me as a player I would coup de grace him the first chance I got. I would then leave the game. I always felt D&D was supposed to be about team play and cooperation among the players and don't participate in games that go against that idea.
tarkin 05-07-07, 12:37 PM	Wow. Learn something new every day. As Vegepygmy shows me below, RAW does let you sell art objects at full price. I stand corrected. -------- Here is my optional rule for Appraisal. Failure by 10 or worse = no idea. Failure by 9-5 or less and you have underestimated the value by 1d610% Failure by 1-4 = you have overestimated the value by 1d2010%. Hit the score = proper price without any extras. by +5 = roll 1d2. If you roll 1, you notice a minor item price bumper(10%), such as the fact that it is a in the style of X and is worth more. If you roll a 2, it has no such price bumper. By +10 = roll 1d4. 1= minor price bump, +10%. 2 = notice the creator's name, price bump 25%. 3/4 = no help. By +15 = roll 1d6. 1 = 10%, 2 = 25%, 3 = Know a collector, can get 50% higher. 4-5 = no help. By +20 = rol 1d8 1=10%,2=25%,3=50%, 4 = know someone that really wants that PARTICULAR piece = +10% 5-8 = no help.
Vegepygmy 05-07-07, 12:54 PM	There is nothing in RAW/FAQ to let anything sell at full price.:teach: Ahem. SELLING LOOT In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price. Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself. Wheat, flour, cloth, gems, jewelry, art objects, and valuable metals are trade goods, and merchants often trade in them directly without using currency (see Table 7–3: Trade Goods). Obviously, merchants can sell these goods for slightly more than they pay for them, but the difference is small enough that you don’t have to worry about it.
darkeness 05-07-07, 01:59 PM	Originally Posted by PHB, page 112 SELLING LOOT In general, a character can sell something for half its listed price. Characters who want to upgrade to better armor or weaponry, for example, can sell their old equipment for half price. Trade goods are the exception to the half-price rule. A trade good, in this sense, is a valuable good that can be easily exchanged almost as if it were cash itself. Wheat, flour, cloth, gems, jewelry, art objects, and valuable metals are trade goods, and merchants often trade in them directly without using currency (see Table 7–3: Trade Goods). Obviously, merchants can sell these goods for slightly more than they pay for them, but the difference is small enough that you don’t have to worry about it. Thanks V, now I will really have to make my players work that appraise check. (Don't know how I ever missed that part of the trade goods section!)
tarkin 05-07-07, 02:09 PM	I stand corrected.
rogerd 05-09-07, 06:15 PM	Thanks for all the replies. I don't think the players benefit from using the Assist Other option. With 6 players rolling, someone's bound to make the DC 15 check, or so I found. The actual estimates are 2d6+3 * 10% of the value, and this is completely unaffected by the check result (as written anyway), so you really want more checks. I thought of an "appraisal tax" idea. Since the party doesn't have an appraiser, they can go to a professional appraiser to get the values of the stuff they found, for a fee based on time spent (should be a relatively small fee). I thought it was interesting to have a rogue that uses his knowledge against the party, but I'm trying to encourage a party that uses teamwork. I can see that being a nice way to "steal from the party" without actually picking any pockets though! I suppose I can dig up the barter rules and just use them for the trade goods - seems like good Diplomacy could help here, and maybe other skills would synergize as well. Of course, the NPC's are specialists, so it may be a bit difficult to beat them if you haven't taken the skills! Roger