Arcane Thesis? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Arcane Thesis? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Oppo28
01-14-08, 04:55 PM Not sure if this has been posted, but my brother and I have had a debate over the feat 'Arcane Thesis'. He claims that one can use +0 spell slot feat to actually make it become a -1 spell slot, as the spell arcane thesis lowers the modification by one. By his logic, one can use 4 +0 metamagic feats to make the spell slot -4, meaning I could cast fireball as a level 0 slot, or I could cast a fireball with quicken (+4, now +3) as a 2nd level spell. This doesn't make sense at all to me, please someone give me the ruling on this or your interpretation.

Oppo28, out.
LSMFT
01-14-08, 05:10 PM No. Hell no.

That the results of his claim are so retarded should be all the evidence you need that he is wrong.

But, if not:

Can the Arcane Thesis feat (Player’s Handbook II, 74)
reduce a spell’s level below the normal level for the spell?
No.
nightwyrm
01-14-08, 06:13 PM Well, you can't reduce a spell to below its normal level, ie. no lv 2 fireball. But there has been some debate on whether lv 0 metamagic feats counts as -1 so that the total level adjustment is 0 or higher, ie. an empowered, acid subbed scorching ray with arcane thesis being only level 2. My personal opinion is that you shouldn't be able to do that, but it's up to the individual DM to see how he rules it.
aelryinth
01-15-08, 12:18 AM The answer would be no, from a logical standpoint. It already says you can't adjust the spell level below starting. So, the -1 would have to apply to another metamagic feat...but Arcane Thesis only lets you apply -1 per feat, not a -1 carryover from another feat.

So, no. It would not work. You can tell him it was a game try, and if he really wants to let it go, you'll let it...and make sure all your NPC wizards abuse the hell out of it.

===Aelryinth
Part-Human2
01-16-08, 12:21 AM PHB2 Errata
Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats
other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to
prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for
your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th
level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2;
and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit”
section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its
original level with the use of this feat.”
Wih
01-16-08, 01:56 AM He's actually correct in the second half. The total spell level cannot be lower than the origonal spell (so no cantrip fireballs), but 4(-1)+4 is still +0, so applying 4 +0 metamagic feats to a spell will give you a free quicken essentially.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Oppo28 01-14-08, 04:55 PM	Not sure if this has been posted, but my brother and I have had a debate over the feat 'Arcane Thesis'. He claims that one can use +0 spell slot feat to actually make it become a -1 spell slot, as the spell arcane thesis lowers the modification by one. By his logic, one can use 4 +0 metamagic feats to make the spell slot -4, meaning I could cast fireball as a level 0 slot, or I could cast a fireball with quicken (+4, now +3) as a 2nd level spell. This doesn't make sense at all to me, please someone give me the ruling on this or your interpretation. Oppo28, out.
LSMFT 01-14-08, 05:10 PM	No. Hell no. That the results of his claim are so retarded should be all the evidence you need that he is wrong. But, if not: Can the Arcane Thesis feat (Player’s Handbook II, 74) reduce a spell’s level below the normal level for the spell? No.
nightwyrm 01-14-08, 06:13 PM	Well, you can't reduce a spell to below its normal level, ie. no lv 2 fireball. But there has been some debate on whether lv 0 metamagic feats counts as -1 so that the total level adjustment is 0 or higher, ie. an empowered, acid subbed scorching ray with arcane thesis being only level 2. My personal opinion is that you shouldn't be able to do that, but it's up to the individual DM to see how he rules it.
aelryinth 01-15-08, 12:18 AM	The answer would be no, from a logical standpoint. It already says you can't adjust the spell level below starting. So, the -1 would have to apply to another metamagic feat...but Arcane Thesis only lets you apply -1 per feat, not a -1 carryover from another feat. So, no. It would not work. You can tell him it was a game try, and if he really wants to let it go, you'll let it...and make sure all your NPC wizards abuse the hell out of it. ===Aelryinth
Part-Human2 01-16-08, 12:21 AM	PHB2 Errata Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution] Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile (assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3). Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission] Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit” section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.”
Wih 01-16-08, 01:56 AM	He's actually correct in the second half. The total spell level cannot be lower than the origonal spell (so no cantrip fireballs), but 4(-1)+4 is still +0, so applying 4 +0 metamagic feats to a spell will give you a free quicken essentially.