Archer AoO Feat (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archer AoO Feat (PEACH) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
adgramaine
03-21-07, 05:00 AM In attempts to make an archer a bit more viable to my own games I am toying around with this concept: an archer who is trying to only provide cover for her allies can make AoO's within a certain range.

I am thinking of giving said feat the following prereqs: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Lightning Reflexes. AoO's could only be made within say perhaps a 30 foot range.

I also think that a restriction would be in order: maybe disallowing the archer from using Manyshot or Rapid Shot in the same round as using this feat. Maybe the archer must ready an action to cover his/her allies in order to facilitate such an action (?).

These are my thoughts on it. Feedback would be appreciated.
nyluenatha
03-21-07, 11:15 AM I definitely like the concept...I'd add in Combat Reflexes as a feat prereq as well. Goes along the whole line of AoO's being pumped up. I think that if you were gonna go with a feat idea like this, putting in the restriction that your AoO's are restricted to the number you can make in a given round, with any enemies moving more than 10 feet in the direction of an ally you have designate as being under 'covered fire' would be subject to an AoO, as long as you are not threatened in melee combat by a creature.

And of course, all this would be within a certain radius (30 feet) for it to be effective. Unless you have other feats that allow it, you're only going to be getting a single AoO per enemy anyway.
Arcade
03-21-07, 04:45 PM I think Combat reflexes is a must and each attack is the same as taking an attack of opportunity. You could make it something like threaten all enemies with your missile weapon in a 30' area that is more than 10' away from any ally. The idea being that you just shoot arrows at any enemies out in the open until they get too close to your allies or take cover- a kind of suppressive fire. It should also definitely take a ready action to perform as well. You could modify it so instead of 30' in all directions, you can do a 60' cone, which might make a bit more sense. This would force opponents to try and stay behind cover as they advance or also be good for when a horde of goblins comes charging forward.
Tonil
03-21-07, 05:01 PM You could modify it so instead of 30' in all directions, you can do a 60' cone, which might make a bit more sense. This would force opponents to try and stay behind cover as they advance or also be good for when a horde of goblins comes charging forward.

I like the OP and I like this idea of a cone instead of all around. I have always thought of AoO as making turn based movement more realistic. You can complete all your movement before the other guy can move, but he gets an AoO to show that these are not completely independent actions, and he can react. An area "covered" by a bow has a similar effect.

And if threatening an area this big seems unbalanced then only allow one AoO per round with a ranged weapon.

As a point of comparison, see the feat "Ranged Threat" from Dragon Magazine #350.
adgramaine
03-21-07, 07:33 PM I like the OP and I like this idea of a cone instead of all around. I have always thought of AoO as making turn based movement more realistic. You can complete all your movement before the other guy can move, but he gets an AoO to show that these are not completely independent actions, and he can react. An area "covered" by a bow has a similar effect.

And if threatening an area this big seems unbalanced then only allow one AoO per round with a ranged weapon.

As a point of comparison, see the feat "Ranged Threat" from Dragon Magazine #350.

Unfortunately I can't reference that particular issue atm. I really like the cone area concept, so I think I will be adding that to the feat.

But limiting to one AoO seems to underpower the effect, especially if I stick with the "no Manyshot/Rapid shot" clause I originally intended with the feat.

So, as it stands:
Prereqs: Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Benefit: the character can ready an action to provide a sort of covering fire for allies within 60 feet of the archer's position. You may ready an action to created a designated threatened area to cover with your bow. This area is a 30 foot cone that must be declared at least 10 feet away from allies. You may only make one Attack of Opportunity to any given foe within this designated threatened area. This specific ready action allows you to make a number of Attacks of Opportunity equal to one plus your Dexterity modifier.

hmmm... seems a bit wordy, but a third level human fighter could burn all of his feats to provide suppressive fire.

Anyone else getting the feeling that Quick Draw stands to reason for this as well? Would the inclusion of Quick Draw lend to a slight increases of threatened area? That's my train of thought right now. Thoughts?
tarkin
03-21-07, 07:55 PM What you describe is something appropriate only for an Anything Goes Game.

1. Archers are already one of the more powerfull builds around (Stacking magic weapon abilities is fantastic.)

2. There exists a Prc Feat to let you do it at 15ft, (with I believe a limit of one AoO per round, but not positive about that).

3. Feats are clearly less powerfull than a PrC ability, they should not do more.

4. The cone idea inserts facing into the game, something that is to be avoided at all costs.

5. Right now, feats exist that add 5ft of reach. Your feat effectively adds 30 ft, which is beyond reasonable. One feat = 5ft of reach, not 30.

------------------

A viable way to do something like this as a feat would be as follows.

1. Require 3 or so archery feats as a pre-req (ones you listed are fine.

2. Loose Game:
Have three feats do it. The first feat simply lets you threaten adjacent squares (5ft). The 2nd feat lets you threaten out to 10ft, the third feat lets you threaten out to 15 ft. If the PrC limits it to 1/round, then these feats all keep that limit.

This is now in line with the PrC ability. I.E. you need more pre-reqs for the PrC ability, but you get it all at once, instead of spending three feats for it.

Power Game: Have 1 feet grant upto 10ft, and a 2nd feet boost it up to 20 ft (beyond what the PrC can do...)
Tonil
03-21-07, 10:59 PM Tarkin makes some good points, but I think you overstate the problems. (And I think we both posted to another thread on this topic :) )

First, here is a summary of "Ranged Threat" feat from Dragon magazine, #350: You can threaten creatures within 15' with a ranged attack, but you get only one per round. Prerequisites are BAB+6, combat Reflexes, Point Blank, Precise Shot.

I am not saying this is automatically OK just becasue it was in Dragon Magazine, but it does have some of the balance issues discussed here:

1. Three feats as a requirement, including Combat Reflexes, which a ranged build would not normally take, so there is some investment required.

2. Short range of 15'. A ranged weapon does not exactly compare to the reach of a melee weapon. For example, Far Shot adds 2x or 1.5 times the range to ranged. But since a bow has an AoO reach of 0' (i.e., no AoO), Tarkin may be right that making it 60' does seem extreme. As an example, the spell Arrow Mind allows you to make AoO with a bow only to enemies within reach, i.e., 5' for most characters. So perhaps a short range is better balanced.

3. One AoO per round. I think a good balance factor to the fact that you have ranged AoO.

And Tarkin, it is not clear to me that all or even most PrC abilities are better than feats. I think some are more powerful, some not, many are hard to compare.

The issue with a cone adding facing is somewhat true, but I thought of it as comparable to an area of effect spell. A spell-caster "faces" when he casts a cone, but not after the spell is cast. After your comment I thought about this issue and decided that if it were like a spell then this should be your action, not an AoO. Using that logic, the archer will cover a 60' cone as a standard or full-round action, like a special ready action. (One feat with this type of action is Deadeye Shot from PHB II)

Maybe using a ready action is what the OP had in mind. But then this action is your action, not really an AoO. But I think this could be the balance factor. You can threaten a cone area if that is the only action that round, i.e., it is your full-round action. If someone enters that cone you get a shot, and you can keep taking shots up to your full attack number, as a readied action.

It has a ranged AoO flavor, but it is balanced by being an action. Or is that too much like a regular readied action to bother with?
Maybe I have just gone in circles...
adgramaine
03-22-07, 03:41 AM heh - maybe I should have mentioned this development was for a low-magic setting.

What prestige class is it that offers the similar ability Tarkin? If it is in one of my books that I have over-looked.... well, let's just say it will be revisited.

Conical attacks are already a fair portion of combat rules, what with dragon's breath, mind blasts, certain wands and spells and such.

Not trying to be argumentative, but I was just trying, as I said, to make archers more viable in a low-magic setting (specifically because magic bows and their nifty-keen enhancements won't be a factor). Heck, if they even find a +1 bow, then I'm off my rocker....
BlackTemplar
09-14-07, 04:01 PM Look at the Threaten ability from the Peerless Archer In Silver Marches
EjoThims
09-14-07, 04:24 PM Based on the OP, a feat that required giving up your standard action (and therefor your full attack and full round actions) to be able to make AoOs with a ranged weapon at 30' and with no other restrictions wouldn't be unbalanced at all.

I honestly cannot fathom why there are not more abilities to allow threatening with ranged weapons (after all, for any battlefield control with them you need to take even more feats and contrary to Tarkin's opinion, archers are far from the most powerful builds in the game), but it does seem to be something that they are very reluctant to give out.
Part-Human2
09-14-07, 08:08 PM Maybe make it a Fighter alternate class ability like those in the PHBII.

Something like "As a full round action while using a ranged weapon, you threaten opponents within 30 feet. You do not flank but you may make a normal number of attacks of opportunity before your next turn."

What level should that be at? 8th? 12th?
EjoThims
09-14-07, 09:42 PM Maybe make it a Fighter alternate class ability like those in the PHBII.

Something like "As a full round action while using a ranged weapon, you threaten opponents within 30 feet. You do not flank but you may make a normal number of attacks of opportunity before your next turn."

What level should that be at? 8th? 12th?

That sounds like a good idea as well, though since it eats up the move as well I'd probably say 8th level.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
adgramaine 03-21-07, 05:00 AM	In attempts to make an archer a bit more viable to my own games I am toying around with this concept: an archer who is trying to only provide cover for her allies can make AoO's within a certain range. I am thinking of giving said feat the following prereqs: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot and Lightning Reflexes. AoO's could only be made within say perhaps a 30 foot range. I also think that a restriction would be in order: maybe disallowing the archer from using Manyshot or Rapid Shot in the same round as using this feat. Maybe the archer must ready an action to cover his/her allies in order to facilitate such an action (?). These are my thoughts on it. Feedback would be appreciated.
nyluenatha 03-21-07, 11:15 AM	I definitely like the concept...I'd add in Combat Reflexes as a feat prereq as well. Goes along the whole line of AoO's being pumped up. I think that if you were gonna go with a feat idea like this, putting in the restriction that your AoO's are restricted to the number you can make in a given round, with any enemies moving more than 10 feet in the direction of an ally you have designate as being under 'covered fire' would be subject to an AoO, as long as you are not threatened in melee combat by a creature. And of course, all this would be within a certain radius (30 feet) for it to be effective. Unless you have other feats that allow it, you're only going to be getting a single AoO per enemy anyway.
Arcade 03-21-07, 04:45 PM	I think Combat reflexes is a must and each attack is the same as taking an attack of opportunity. You could make it something like threaten all enemies with your missile weapon in a 30' area that is more than 10' away from any ally. The idea being that you just shoot arrows at any enemies out in the open until they get too close to your allies or take cover- a kind of suppressive fire. It should also definitely take a ready action to perform as well. You could modify it so instead of 30' in all directions, you can do a 60' cone, which might make a bit more sense. This would force opponents to try and stay behind cover as they advance or also be good for when a horde of goblins comes charging forward.
Tonil 03-21-07, 05:01 PM	You could modify it so instead of 30' in all directions, you can do a 60' cone, which might make a bit more sense. This would force opponents to try and stay behind cover as they advance or also be good for when a horde of goblins comes charging forward. I like the OP and I like this idea of a cone instead of all around. I have always thought of AoO as making turn based movement more realistic. You can complete all your movement before the other guy can move, but he gets an AoO to show that these are not completely independent actions, and he can react. An area "covered" by a bow has a similar effect. And if threatening an area this big seems unbalanced then only allow one AoO per round with a ranged weapon. As a point of comparison, see the feat "Ranged Threat" from Dragon Magazine #350.
adgramaine 03-21-07, 07:33 PM	I like the OP and I like this idea of a cone instead of all around. I have always thought of AoO as making turn based movement more realistic. You can complete all your movement before the other guy can move, but he gets an AoO to show that these are not completely independent actions, and he can react. An area "covered" by a bow has a similar effect. And if threatening an area this big seems unbalanced then only allow one AoO per round with a ranged weapon. As a point of comparison, see the feat "Ranged Threat" from Dragon Magazine #350. Unfortunately I can't reference that particular issue atm. I really like the cone area concept, so I think I will be adding that to the feat. But limiting to one AoO seems to underpower the effect, especially if I stick with the "no Manyshot/Rapid shot" clause I originally intended with the feat. So, as it stands: Prereqs: Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot Benefit: the character can ready an action to provide a sort of covering fire for allies within 60 feet of the archer's position. You may ready an action to created a designated threatened area to cover with your bow. This area is a 30 foot cone that must be declared at least 10 feet away from allies. You may only make one Attack of Opportunity to any given foe within this designated threatened area. This specific ready action allows you to make a number of Attacks of Opportunity equal to one plus your Dexterity modifier. hmmm... seems a bit wordy, but a third level human fighter could burn all of his feats to provide suppressive fire. Anyone else getting the feeling that Quick Draw stands to reason for this as well? Would the inclusion of Quick Draw lend to a slight increases of threatened area? That's my train of thought right now. Thoughts?
tarkin 03-21-07, 07:55 PM	What you describe is something appropriate only for an Anything Goes Game. 1. Archers are already one of the more powerfull builds around (Stacking magic weapon abilities is fantastic.) 2. There exists a Prc Feat to let you do it at 15ft, (with I believe a limit of one AoO per round, but not positive about that). 3. Feats are clearly less powerfull than a PrC ability, they should not do more. 4. The cone idea inserts facing into the game, something that is to be avoided at all costs. 5. Right now, feats exist that add 5ft of reach. Your feat effectively adds 30 ft, which is beyond reasonable. One feat = 5ft of reach, not 30. ------------------ A viable way to do something like this as a feat would be as follows. 1. Require 3 or so archery feats as a pre-req (ones you listed are fine. 2. Loose Game: Have three feats do it. The first feat simply lets you threaten adjacent squares (5ft). The 2nd feat lets you threaten out to 10ft, the third feat lets you threaten out to 15 ft. If the PrC limits it to 1/round, then these feats all keep that limit. This is now in line with the PrC ability. I.E. you need more pre-reqs for the PrC ability, but you get it all at once, instead of spending three feats for it. Power Game: Have 1 feet grant upto 10ft, and a 2nd feet boost it up to 20 ft (beyond what the PrC can do...)
Tonil 03-21-07, 10:59 PM	Tarkin makes some good points, but I think you overstate the problems. (And I think we both posted to another thread on this topic :) ) First, here is a summary of "Ranged Threat" feat from Dragon magazine, #350: You can threaten creatures within 15' with a ranged attack, but you get only one per round. Prerequisites are BAB+6, combat Reflexes, Point Blank, Precise Shot. I am not saying this is automatically OK just becasue it was in Dragon Magazine, but it does have some of the balance issues discussed here: 1. Three feats as a requirement, including Combat Reflexes, which a ranged build would not normally take, so there is some investment required. 2. Short range of 15'. A ranged weapon does not exactly compare to the reach of a melee weapon. For example, Far Shot adds 2x or 1.5 times the range to ranged. But since a bow has an AoO reach of 0' (i.e., no AoO), Tarkin may be right that making it 60' does seem extreme. As an example, the spell Arrow Mind allows you to make AoO with a bow only to enemies within reach, i.e., 5' for most characters. So perhaps a short range is better balanced. 3. One AoO per round. I think a good balance factor to the fact that you have ranged AoO. And Tarkin, it is not clear to me that all or even most PrC abilities are better than feats. I think some are more powerful, some not, many are hard to compare. The issue with a cone adding facing is somewhat true, but I thought of it as comparable to an area of effect spell. A spell-caster "faces" when he casts a cone, but not after the spell is cast. After your comment I thought about this issue and decided that if it were like a spell then this should be your action, not an AoO. Using that logic, the archer will cover a 60' cone as a standard or full-round action, like a special ready action. (One feat with this type of action is Deadeye Shot from PHB II) Maybe using a ready action is what the OP had in mind. But then this action is your action, not really an AoO. But I think this could be the balance factor. You can threaten a cone area if that is the only action that round, i.e., it is your full-round action. If someone enters that cone you get a shot, and you can keep taking shots up to your full attack number, as a readied action. It has a ranged AoO flavor, but it is balanced by being an action. Or is that too much like a regular readied action to bother with? Maybe I have just gone in circles...
adgramaine 03-22-07, 03:41 AM	heh - maybe I should have mentioned this development was for a low-magic setting. What prestige class is it that offers the similar ability Tarkin? If it is in one of my books that I have over-looked.... well, let's just say it will be revisited. Conical attacks are already a fair portion of combat rules, what with dragon's breath, mind blasts, certain wands and spells and such. Not trying to be argumentative, but I was just trying, as I said, to make archers more viable in a low-magic setting (specifically because magic bows and their nifty-keen enhancements won't be a factor). Heck, if they even find a +1 bow, then I'm off my rocker....
BlackTemplar 09-14-07, 04:01 PM	Look at the Threaten ability from the Peerless Archer In Silver Marches
EjoThims 09-14-07, 04:24 PM	Based on the OP, a feat that required giving up your standard action (and therefor your full attack and full round actions) to be able to make AoOs with a ranged weapon at 30' and with no other restrictions wouldn't be unbalanced at all. I honestly cannot fathom why there are not more abilities to allow threatening with ranged weapons (after all, for any battlefield control with them you need to take even more feats and contrary to Tarkin's opinion, archers are far from the most powerful builds in the game), but it does seem to be something that they are very reluctant to give out.
Part-Human2 09-14-07, 08:08 PM	Maybe make it a Fighter alternate class ability like those in the PHBII. Something like "As a full round action while using a ranged weapon, you threaten opponents within 30 feet. You do not flank but you may make a normal number of attacks of opportunity before your next turn." What level should that be at? 8th? 12th?
EjoThims 09-14-07, 09:42 PM	Maybe make it a Fighter alternate class ability like those in the PHBII. Something like "As a full round action while using a ranged weapon, you threaten opponents within 30 feet. You do not flank but you may make a normal number of attacks of opportunity before your next turn." What level should that be at? 8th? 12th? That sounds like a good idea as well, though since it eats up the move as well I'd probably say 8th level.