Archery feat question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archery feat question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jojo_el_Mono
02-22-08, 04:34 PM Is there a feat that exists that would allow a character to add his dexterity modifier to the damage roll of a ranged attack? I know Mighty weapons allow the addition of strength modifiers, but I was hoping I could find something to add dexterity instead.
RobbyPants
02-22-08, 04:39 PM The only one I can think of only applied to crossbows. The Crossbow Sniper feat in PHB2 allows you to add half of your Dex bonus to damage rolls. I think it also extends your sneak attack range out to 60 feet too.
Shadowhowler
02-23-08, 08:57 PM The only one I can think of only applied to crossbows. The Crossbow Sniper feat in PHB2 allows you to add half of your Dex bonus to damage rolls. I think it also extends your sneak attack range out to 60 feet too.

Yup... extends your Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage to 60ft, very nice feat. I wonder why there is not a version for regular bows?

Maybe becuase you have Compound bows, which get Str benifits, and they don't like the idea of stacking the 1/2 dex with the Str?

Still, it would be nice to get something that extends the damage for Sneak Attack and Skirmish to 60ft, even if you can't get the 1/2 dex to damage bit.
ciaran
02-23-08, 10:06 PM I know of nothing, but there should be something like it.
Cartigan
02-23-08, 10:38 PM Only in Dragon magazine.
Shadowhowler
02-24-08, 02:13 AM Only in Dragon magazine.

Yeah... that, or you could always bone yourself with the full 10 levels of the OotBI to extend your 30ft to 60ft for persicion based damage.

Then again, you could self-perform a root canal with a rusty dagger too. Sounds about as fun.

:(
sally_jones
02-25-08, 12:18 AM the only one i know of isnt in a WotC sourcebook.
mtbOgre
02-25-08, 12:28 AM Yup... extends your Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage to 60ft, very nice feat. I wonder why there is not a version for regular bows?

Maybe becuase you have Compound bows, which get Str benifits, and they don't like the idea of stacking the 1/2 dex with the Str?

Still, it would be nice to get something that extends the damage for Sneak Attack and Skirmish to 60ft, even if you can't get the 1/2 dex to damage bit.

Maybe they just figured that the bow was already the best ranged weapon out there and didn't need any more love?
Shadowhowler
02-25-08, 04:15 PM Maybe they just figured that the bow was already the best ranged weapon out there and didn't need any more love?

I agree the bow has more potential then the crossbow... but it is not the best ranged Weapon for everyone. It's certainly the best ranged weapon for Archer bassed characters who also have Str mods.

For example... compare a Light Crossbow and a Longbow. The longbow has a bit better range, they both do the same damage, longbow has x3 crit while the Light Crossbow has 19-20x2 (Which I'd rather have). Longbow costs almost 3 times as much, and is a martial weapon... while a Light crossbow is a simple one.

This means for a lot of low level characters... the light crossbow is a much better option. However, at higher levels with extra attacks, a longbow may be a better otption, becuase you'll need a feat (rapid reload) to really take advantage of extra attacks.

If you bring the Str damage and Comp bow into the mix, the price shoots up even more, and it's still a martial weapon as opposed to simple. Also, a longbow takes up a lot more space and is much harder to use in tight places the a light crossbow.

IMHO, it all sorta evens out. Some characters are better served with a bow... some with a crossbow... but I can't say that the bow is 'the best ranged weapon out there'... becuase it's NOT the best for everyone, only for some.
mtbOgre
02-25-08, 04:53 PM I agree the bow has more potential then the crossbow... but it is not the best ranged Weapon for everyone. It's certainly the best ranged weapon for Archer bassed characters who also have Str mods.

For example... compare a Light Crossbow and a Longbow. The longbow has a bit better range, they both do the same damage, longbow has x3 crit while the Light Crossbow has 19-20x2 (Which I'd rather have). Longbow costs almost 3 times as much, and is a martial weapon... while a Light crossbow is a simple one.

This means for a lot of low level characters... the light crossbow is a much better option. However, at higher levels with extra attacks, a longbow may be a better otption, becuase you'll need a feat (rapid reload) to really take advantage of extra attacks.

If you bring the Str damage and Comp bow into the mix, the price shoots up even more, and it's still a martial weapon as opposed to simple. Also, a longbow takes up a lot more space and is much harder to use in tight places the a light crossbow.

IMHO, it all sorta evens out. Some characters are better served with a bow... some with a crossbow... but I can't say that the bow is 'the best ranged weapon out there'... becuase it's NOT the best for everyone, only for some.
It is the best ranged weapon for everyone unless they are non-proficient. Some characters may not be able to afford it but that doesn't detract from it's usefulness.

Ranged Weapons:
Longbow: (+)Damage is good, (++)reload as a free action, (+)option to add strength damage, (+)best range, Elves get free proficiency

Crossbow: (+)Damage is good, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive

Sling: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Poor damage, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive

Thrown Weapons: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Abysmal Range Increments, (+)Less expensive
Shadowhowler
02-25-08, 11:10 PM It is the best ranged weapon for everyone unless they are non-proficient. Some characters may not be able to afford it but that doesn't detract from it's usefulness.

Ranged Weapons:
Longbow: (+)Damage is good, (++)reload as a free action, (+)option to add strength damage, (+)best range, Elves get free proficiency

Crossbow: (+)Damage is good, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive

Sling: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Poor damage, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive

Thrown Weapons: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Abysmal Range Increments, (+)Less expensive

If they are poor (or spend money elesware, as in the case of caster types) or they have no strength to add to damage, or they spend a lot of time in very tight spaces... these would also make a Light Crossbow a better choice over a longbow in addition to the non-proficant issue.

Anyway... I guess it's just pOtato, pAtato.
Rymosrac
02-26-08, 12:38 AM No, it's more like pOtato, death ray.

Crossbows are not equal to bows in 3.5. They're close, but no cigar. The archers win out with +STR to damage and being able to spew out arrows at prodigous rates. There have been extensive efforts to get crossbow users up to the same damage potential as chaingun archers on the CharOp boards, but it hasn't been pulled off yet, AFAIK. And throwing in the splitting enhacement doubles the gap.

The larger threat range doesn't count as an advantage, and the better base damage dies even against a Might +1 bow. Being able to fire while prone is a pretty big help for the crossbow user, but still not quite enough.

I would have no problem with a bow feat that permitted sneak attack at longer range with bows - though I'd still prefer that it be less than that of a crossbow. Stability from a shouldered weapon should mean something. But Dex to damage? No thanks. You don't need two stats to damage on a single weapon that is already the better choice of the two for any character with martial weapon proficiency (meaning, anyone who has any buisness being a weapon-based build in the first place).

The bow is better. It doesn't need to be MORE better. And you know what? It should be better by a hair or two. It's a martial weapon. But the gap really doesn't need widened.

Anyhow, it really doesn't make that much difference. You're still no ubercharger no matter whether you get STR and DEX to damage or not. If there wasn't anyone in the party using a crossbow and the archer weren't already at the head of the party power level, I might permit a DEX to damage feat for bow users. Something along the lines of Dragon Magazine's Dead Eye with some specifics changed up.
Shadowhowler
02-26-08, 10:35 AM Anyhow, it really doesn't make that much difference. You're still no ubercharger no matter whether you get STR and DEX to damage or not. If there wasn't anyone in the party using a crossbow and the archer weren't already at the head of the party power level, I might permit a DEX to damage feat for bow users. Something along the lines of Dragon Magazine's Dead Eye with some specifics changed up.

I agree that a feat that allows Dex to damage AS WELL as Str would be over the top. Actauly, what I would like to see is the extra range on Sneak Attack more then anything eles... tho your point about the stability of a Crossbow is well taken in that regard.

It may just be semantics... but I still don't belive the bow is hands down better then a crossbow, becuase I see MANY cases and many characters that are better served by one or the other.

From a pure optimization standpoint... if you were sitting down and making a Ranged character and looking for the most power... and planed on building your character around that... then yes, you'd likely be better of with a bow. However... if you were not building a character around ranged death... but you wanted a ranged option... sometimes bow would be better, and sometimes crossbow would be better, depending on the character and the cercimstances.

However, with Rapid Re-load and Crossbow sniper, I suspect one could build a damn effective crossbow-based ranged character.

Would not the splitting enhancement be useable on a crossbow also?
Rymosrac
02-26-08, 05:16 PM Yes, splitting works on crossbows - and crossbows get huge benefit from it. But bows, with their much higher average rate of fire, benefit even more.
Shadowhowler
02-27-08, 08:32 AM Yes, splitting works on crossbows - and crossbows get huge benefit from it. But bows, with their much higher average rate of fire, benefit even more.

Unless one has the rapid reload feat... in which case their light crossbow fires just as offten as a bow.
Rymosrac
02-27-08, 09:15 AM Correct - You can get a light crossbow to fire at the same normal rate as a bow for either the cost of a feat or a +1 equivalent property. A feat / property that the bow user could be using to pull ahead again. And since you're using a light crossbow, you don't have any damage advantage over the longbow. And you still can't manyshot with it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jojo_el_Mono 02-22-08, 04:34 PM	Is there a feat that exists that would allow a character to add his dexterity modifier to the damage roll of a ranged attack? I know Mighty weapons allow the addition of strength modifiers, but I was hoping I could find something to add dexterity instead.
RobbyPants 02-22-08, 04:39 PM	The only one I can think of only applied to crossbows. The Crossbow Sniper feat in PHB2 allows you to add half of your Dex bonus to damage rolls. I think it also extends your sneak attack range out to 60 feet too.
Shadowhowler 02-23-08, 08:57 PM	The only one I can think of only applied to crossbows. The Crossbow Sniper feat in PHB2 allows you to add half of your Dex bonus to damage rolls. I think it also extends your sneak attack range out to 60 feet too. Yup... extends your Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage to 60ft, very nice feat. I wonder why there is not a version for regular bows? Maybe becuase you have Compound bows, which get Str benifits, and they don't like the idea of stacking the 1/2 dex with the Str? Still, it would be nice to get something that extends the damage for Sneak Attack and Skirmish to 60ft, even if you can't get the 1/2 dex to damage bit.
ciaran 02-23-08, 10:06 PM	I know of nothing, but there should be something like it.
Cartigan 02-23-08, 10:38 PM	Only in Dragon magazine.
Shadowhowler 02-24-08, 02:13 AM	Only in Dragon magazine. Yeah... that, or you could always bone yourself with the full 10 levels of the OotBI to extend your 30ft to 60ft for persicion based damage. Then again, you could self-perform a root canal with a rusty dagger too. Sounds about as fun. :(
sally_jones 02-25-08, 12:18 AM	the only one i know of isnt in a WotC sourcebook.
mtbOgre 02-25-08, 12:28 AM	Yup... extends your Sneak Attack or Skirmish damage to 60ft, very nice feat. I wonder why there is not a version for regular bows? Maybe becuase you have Compound bows, which get Str benifits, and they don't like the idea of stacking the 1/2 dex with the Str? Still, it would be nice to get something that extends the damage for Sneak Attack and Skirmish to 60ft, even if you can't get the 1/2 dex to damage bit. Maybe they just figured that the bow was already the best ranged weapon out there and didn't need any more love?
Shadowhowler 02-25-08, 04:15 PM	Maybe they just figured that the bow was already the best ranged weapon out there and didn't need any more love? I agree the bow has more potential then the crossbow... but it is not the best ranged Weapon for everyone. It's certainly the best ranged weapon for Archer bassed characters who also have Str mods. For example... compare a Light Crossbow and a Longbow. The longbow has a bit better range, they both do the same damage, longbow has x3 crit while the Light Crossbow has 19-20x2 (Which I'd rather have). Longbow costs almost 3 times as much, and is a martial weapon... while a Light crossbow is a simple one. This means for a lot of low level characters... the light crossbow is a much better option. However, at higher levels with extra attacks, a longbow may be a better otption, becuase you'll need a feat (rapid reload) to really take advantage of extra attacks. If you bring the Str damage and Comp bow into the mix, the price shoots up even more, and it's still a martial weapon as opposed to simple. Also, a longbow takes up a lot more space and is much harder to use in tight places the a light crossbow. IMHO, it all sorta evens out. Some characters are better served with a bow... some with a crossbow... but I can't say that the bow is 'the best ranged weapon out there'... becuase it's NOT the best for everyone, only for some.
mtbOgre 02-25-08, 04:53 PM	I agree the bow has more potential then the crossbow... but it is not the best ranged Weapon for everyone. It's certainly the best ranged weapon for Archer bassed characters who also have Str mods. For example... compare a Light Crossbow and a Longbow. The longbow has a bit better range, they both do the same damage, longbow has x3 crit while the Light Crossbow has 19-20x2 (Which I'd rather have). Longbow costs almost 3 times as much, and is a martial weapon... while a Light crossbow is a simple one. This means for a lot of low level characters... the light crossbow is a much better option. However, at higher levels with extra attacks, a longbow may be a better otption, becuase you'll need a feat (rapid reload) to really take advantage of extra attacks. If you bring the Str damage and Comp bow into the mix, the price shoots up even more, and it's still a martial weapon as opposed to simple. Also, a longbow takes up a lot more space and is much harder to use in tight places the a light crossbow. IMHO, it all sorta evens out. Some characters are better served with a bow... some with a crossbow... but I can't say that the bow is 'the best ranged weapon out there'... becuase it's NOT the best for everyone, only for some. It is the best ranged weapon for everyone unless they are non-proficient. Some characters may not be able to afford it but that doesn't detract from it's usefulness. Ranged Weapons: Longbow: (+)Damage is good, (++)reload as a free action, (+)option to add strength damage, (+)best range, Elves get free proficiency Crossbow: (+)Damage is good, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive Sling: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Poor damage, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive Thrown Weapons: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Abysmal Range Increments, (+)Less expensive
Shadowhowler 02-25-08, 11:10 PM	It is the best ranged weapon for everyone unless they are non-proficient. Some characters may not be able to afford it but that doesn't detract from it's usefulness. Ranged Weapons: Longbow: (+)Damage is good, (++)reload as a free action, (+)option to add strength damage, (+)best range, Elves get free proficiency Crossbow: (+)Damage is good, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive Sling: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Poor damage, (+)Simple weapon, (+)Less expensive Thrown Weapons: (++)Add Strength Damage, (--)Abysmal Range Increments, (+)Less expensive If they are poor (or spend money elesware, as in the case of caster types) or they have no strength to add to damage, or they spend a lot of time in very tight spaces... these would also make a Light Crossbow a better choice over a longbow in addition to the non-proficant issue. Anyway... I guess it's just pOtato, pAtato.
Rymosrac 02-26-08, 12:38 AM	No, it's more like pOtato, death ray. Crossbows are not equal to bows in 3.5. They're close, but no cigar. The archers win out with +STR to damage and being able to spew out arrows at prodigous rates. There have been extensive efforts to get crossbow users up to the same damage potential as chaingun archers on the CharOp boards, but it hasn't been pulled off yet, AFAIK. And throwing in the splitting enhacement doubles the gap. The larger threat range doesn't count as an advantage, and the better base damage dies even against a Might +1 bow. Being able to fire while prone is a pretty big help for the crossbow user, but still not quite enough. I would have no problem with a bow feat that permitted sneak attack at longer range with bows - though I'd still prefer that it be less than that of a crossbow. Stability from a shouldered weapon should mean something. But Dex to damage? No thanks. You don't need two stats to damage on a single weapon that is already the better choice of the two for any character with martial weapon proficiency (meaning, anyone who has any buisness being a weapon-based build in the first place). The bow is better. It doesn't need to be MORE better. And you know what? It should be better by a hair or two. It's a martial weapon. But the gap really doesn't need widened. Anyhow, it really doesn't make that much difference. You're still no ubercharger no matter whether you get STR and DEX to damage or not. If there wasn't anyone in the party using a crossbow and the archer weren't already at the head of the party power level, I might permit a DEX to damage feat for bow users. Something along the lines of Dragon Magazine's Dead Eye with some specifics changed up.
Shadowhowler 02-26-08, 10:35 AM	Anyhow, it really doesn't make that much difference. You're still no ubercharger no matter whether you get STR and DEX to damage or not. If there wasn't anyone in the party using a crossbow and the archer weren't already at the head of the party power level, I might permit a DEX to damage feat for bow users. Something along the lines of Dragon Magazine's Dead Eye with some specifics changed up. I agree that a feat that allows Dex to damage AS WELL as Str would be over the top. Actauly, what I would like to see is the extra range on Sneak Attack more then anything eles... tho your point about the stability of a Crossbow is well taken in that regard. It may just be semantics... but I still don't belive the bow is hands down better then a crossbow, becuase I see MANY cases and many characters that are better served by one or the other. From a pure optimization standpoint... if you were sitting down and making a Ranged character and looking for the most power... and planed on building your character around that... then yes, you'd likely be better of with a bow. However... if you were not building a character around ranged death... but you wanted a ranged option... sometimes bow would be better, and sometimes crossbow would be better, depending on the character and the cercimstances. However, with Rapid Re-load and Crossbow sniper, I suspect one could build a damn effective crossbow-based ranged character. Would not the splitting enhancement be useable on a crossbow also?
Rymosrac 02-26-08, 05:16 PM	Yes, splitting works on crossbows - and crossbows get huge benefit from it. But bows, with their much higher average rate of fire, benefit even more.
Shadowhowler 02-27-08, 08:32 AM	Yes, splitting works on crossbows - and crossbows get huge benefit from it. But bows, with their much higher average rate of fire, benefit even more. Unless one has the rapid reload feat... in which case their light crossbow fires just as offten as a bow.
Rymosrac 02-27-08, 09:15 AM	Correct - You can get a light crossbow to fire at the same normal rate as a bow for either the cost of a feat or a +1 equivalent property. A feat / property that the bow user could be using to pull ahead again. And since you're using a light crossbow, you don't have any damage advantage over the longbow. And you still can't manyshot with it.