Archery feats with rays? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Archery feats with rays? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
RunLikeHell
09-28-07, 09:54 PM Could i use feats like able sniper and woodland archer with ray type attacks?
Puca
09-28-07, 11:36 PM Yes. Weapon-like spells can be used with feats like Point-blank and Precise Shot, so these would seem to work.

With one partial exception: the "Adjust for Range" maneuver in Woodland Archer specifically mentions shooting a "projectile weapon." That would not work with ray. Nothing else though has this limitation.
BugHunter
09-28-07, 11:41 PM I would have to say yes for able sniper and no for woodland archer.
wizardguy2003
09-28-07, 11:41 PM From Rules of the Game article : Ranged Attacks

Magical Effects as Ranged Attacks

Rules and feats that apply to ranged attacks can apply to things other than projectile or thrown weapons, as noted here.

Spells: Any spell that requires you to make a ranged attack roll to aim the spell is subject to all the rules that govern ranged attacks, including most feats that improve ranged attacks.

All spells that produce rays fall into this category. Other spells that have effect entries and produce effects that you throw or otherwise propel away from you also count as ranged attacks, provided that you actually use the effect at range. (See Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions) and page 175 in the Player's Handbook for a discussion of effect spells.) Other spells might also work as ranged attacks; check the spell's description to be sure.

From page 175 of the Player's Handbook:

Effect: Some spells, such as summon monster spells, create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it (for example, "The insect plague will appear 20 feet into the area of darkness that the nagas are hiding in"). Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile (a summoned monster, for instance), it can move regardless of the spell's range.

Ray: Some effects are rays (for example, ray of enfeeblement). You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you're aiming at.

If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists. If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect. Example: obscuring mist.

Spells with area entries never function as ranged attacks, nor do most spells that have target entries (unless you must make a ranged attack to hit the target).

Sometimes a spell works as a ranged attack, and sometimes it doesn't, depending on how you use the spell. For example, the produce flame spell is an effect spell that you can use for either melee or ranged combat. Produce flame counts as a ranged attack only when you're hurling flames.
Puca
09-29-07, 03:38 PM I would have to say yes for able sniper and no for woodland archer.
Why not?
You can meet the prereqs?
There is nothing in two of the three maneuvers that specifically exclude weapon-like spells.
BugHunter
09-29-07, 04:45 PM Why not?
You can meet the prereqs?
There is nothing in two of the three maneuvers that specifically exclude weapon-like spells.

Able sniper in the descriptive part states "ranged weapon" and woodland archer states "archery". Archery means the activity of shooting with a bow and arrow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RunLikeHell 09-28-07, 09:54 PM	Could i use feats like able sniper and woodland archer with ray type attacks?
Puca 09-28-07, 11:36 PM	Yes. Weapon-like spells can be used with feats like Point-blank and Precise Shot, so these would seem to work. With one partial exception: the "Adjust for Range" maneuver in Woodland Archer specifically mentions shooting a "projectile weapon." That would not work with ray. Nothing else though has this limitation.
BugHunter 09-28-07, 11:41 PM	I would have to say yes for able sniper and no for woodland archer.
wizardguy2003 09-28-07, 11:41 PM	From Rules of the Game article : Ranged Attacks Magical Effects as Ranged Attacks Rules and feats that apply to ranged attacks can apply to things other than projectile or thrown weapons, as noted here. Spells: Any spell that requires you to make a ranged attack roll to aim the spell is subject to all the rules that govern ranged attacks, including most feats that improve ranged attacks. All spells that produce rays fall into this category. Other spells that have effect entries and produce effects that you throw or otherwise propel away from you also count as ranged attacks, provided that you actually use the effect at range. (See Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions) and page 175 in the Player's Handbook for a discussion of effect spells.) Other spells might also work as ranged attacks; check the spell's description to be sure. From page 175 of the Player's Handbook: Effect: Some spells, such as summon monster spells, create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present. You must designate the location where these things are to appear, either by seeing it or defining it (for example, "The insect plague will appear 20 feet into the area of darkness that the nagas are hiding in"). Range determines how far away an effect can appear, but if the effect is mobile (a summoned monster, for instance), it can move regardless of the spell's range. Ray: Some effects are rays (for example, ray of enfeeblement). You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you're aiming at. If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists. If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Spread: Some effects, notably clouds and fogs, spread out from a point of origin, which must be a grid intersection. The effect can extend around corners and into areas that you can't see. Figure distance by actual distance traveled, taking into account turns the spell effect takes. When determining distance for spread effects, count around walls, not through them. As with movement, do not trace diagonals across corners. You must designate the point of origin for such an effect, but you need not have line of effect (see below) to all portions of the effect. Example: obscuring mist. Spells with area entries never function as ranged attacks, nor do most spells that have target entries (unless you must make a ranged attack to hit the target). Sometimes a spell works as a ranged attack, and sometimes it doesn't, depending on how you use the spell. For example, the produce flame spell is an effect spell that you can use for either melee or ranged combat. Produce flame counts as a ranged attack only when you're hurling flames.
Puca 09-29-07, 03:38 PM	I would have to say yes for able sniper and no for woodland archer. Why not? You can meet the prereqs? There is nothing in two of the three maneuvers that specifically exclude weapon-like spells.
BugHunter 09-29-07, 04:45 PM	Why not? You can meet the prereqs? There is nothing in two of the three maneuvers that specifically exclude weapon-like spells. Able sniper in the descriptive part states "ranged weapon" and woodland archer states "archery". Archery means the activity of shooting with a bow and arrow.