Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bigdndfan 05-18-07, 01:10 PM	It seems common in discussions for the phrase attack action to be used interchangably with full attack action. Why do people do this? Looking at 'attack action' in the glossary of the PHB reffers you to page 139 where there is merely a disucssion of the various type of attacks (all listed under Standard Action) Melee, ranged, unarmed etc,... So what gives, what am I missing? A phrase as broad as 'attack action' has to cover all types of basic attack no? So a 4th level fighter using a standard action (1 attack) and than moving his full distance; isn't he using his 'attack action' as a standard action (not a full attack action)? It's important because it seems the consensus is that Shot on the Run "when using the attack action" cannot be combined with Manyshot (a standard action). Shot on the Run allows you break up your move action between your attack action, and one type of attack action is a standard action, which Manyshot is. So where does my argument breakdown??
Frugal 05-18-07, 01:15 PM	Normally you have 1 standard action and 1 move action per round. You can also chose to make a full round action instead of those actions (only getting a 5' step for movement) or substitute a 2nd move action instead of your standard action. The attack action is one specific standard action. There is a full round action (full attack) which grants you more attacks if you have a high enough BAB (or are using TWF or other options that grant extra attacks). Now as for shot on the run, manyshot requires a standard action. The attack action may be a standard actions but if a feat (like shot on the run) specifically states an attack action then that doesn't mean that you can substitute any other standard action. Or put another way, the attack action is a standard action, not all standard actions are attack actions.
bigdndfan 05-18-07, 01:27 PM	Normally you have 1 standard action and 1 move action per round. You can also chose to make a full round action instead of those actions (only getting a 5' step for movement) or substitute a 2nd move action instead of your standard action. The attack action is one specific standard action. There is a full round action (full attack) which grants you more attacks if you have a high enough BAB (or are using TWF or other options that grant extra attacks). Now as for shot on the run, manyshot requires a standard action. The attack action may be a standard actions but if a feat (like shot on the run) specifically states an attack action then that doesn't mean that you can substitute any other standard action. Or put another way, the attack action is a standard action, not all standard actions are attack actions. Right... but in this case manyshot is clearly a standard action AND an attack action. All you are doing with your standard action is firing your bow, so how is that not an "attack action"?? Someone else have an opinion? It would be greatly appreciated.
Frugal 05-18-07, 02:03 PM	Right... but in this case manyshot is clearly a standard action AND an attack action. All you are doing with your standard action is firing your bow, so how is that not an "attack action"?? Someone else have an opinion? It would be greatly appreciated. Well or you could say that manyshot is a standard option which happens to give you an attack. Regardless though, it's a standard action and shot on the run only allows for 1 specific standard action, the attack action, to be made. Edit: should add that manyshot represents firing several arrows at once from your bow. Presumably the logic is that this would still take more time to setup properly and fire than simply notching a single arrow and firing. Short enough that it still works as a standard action but not as quickly as an attack action.
Riplox 05-18-07, 02:17 PM	A standard action and an attack action are the same thing. A full-attack (or full-round) action uses up both your standard and movement actions (such as firing multiple times from your bow), thus allowing you to only take a single 5' step and use free actions for the remainder of your turn. Manyshot is a standard action because you're making only a single attack (single pull of the bow-string), you're just adding extra arrows to that attack. Thus, you can use Shot-On-The-Run and the Manyshot feat in the same round. Check the "Actions in Combat" part of the Combat 1 section in the SRD (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)
Matthew77 05-18-07, 02:27 PM	A standard action and an attack action are the same thing. No, they are not. An attack action is one specific type of standard action. A banana is a specific type of fruit. This does not mean that a fruit and a banana are the same thing. Drinking a potion is also a standard action, but it is not an attack action. An apple is also a fruit, but an apple is not a banana. Manyshot is a standard action because you're making only a single attack (single pull of the bow-string), you're just adding extra arrows to that attack. No. Manyshot is a specific type of standard action all its own. It is a standard action because the feat defines it as a standard action, not because you happen to roll an attack roll or fire an arrow. Manyshot is a orange. Oranges are fruits, but they are not bananas. Thus, you can use Shot-On-The-Run and the Manyshot feat in the same round. No, you cannot. Shot on the Run allows a specific type of standard action, an attack action. Manyshot requires you to perform a different type of standard action, the Manyshot action. Shot on the Run allows you to eat an banana. Not any fruit you want, only a banana. Manyshot is an orange. A feat that allows you to eat a banana does not allow you to eat an orange instead. Edit: well, I suppose you could use both Manyshot and Shot on the Run in the same round, but you would need to have some way of taking 2 standard actions in the same round, because the two feats require different standard actions. Edit: Some quotes from the SRD for reference: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. A standard action. Not an attack action, but its own special standard action. When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, The attack action. Not "making an attack" or "making a standard action that includes an attack roll", but specifically the attack action. Another note: this is also why you can't use Spring Attack and a martial strike from the TOB.
Riplox 05-18-07, 02:38 PM	Ok. I see your points. My bad. What I meant by the same thing is that it consumes the same amount of time in a round. However, I'd argue that you can use Manyshot feat when using the Shot on the Run feat. Excerpts from both feats: Manyshot: As part of a Standard Action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30’. You make a single attack roll with a –4 penalty. Shot on the Run: When making a Standard Action attack with a ranged weapon,...
Frugal 05-18-07, 02:39 PM	Yep, Riplox is completely wrong here. An attack action is one type of standard action, manyshot is a separate standard action. Note for instance, you can't use shot on the run to cast a spell (which can also be a standard action). It's a standard action, it might be an attack, but it's not using the attack action.
Matthew77 05-18-07, 02:40 PM	It seems common in discussions for the phrase attack action to be used interchangably with full attack action. It may be common, but it is incorrect. Your explaination is correct. An "attack action" is a specific type of standard action. A "full attack action" is a specific type of full-round action. They are completely different, even though they share two words.
Matthew77 05-18-07, 02:43 PM	Ok. I see your points. My bad. What I meant by the same thing is that it consumes the same amount of time in a round. However, I'd argue that you can use Manyshot feat when using the Shot on the Run feat. Excerpts from both feats: Manyshot: As part of a Standard Action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30’. You make a single attack roll with a –4 penalty. Shot on the Run: When making a Standard Action attack with a ranged weapon,... Where did you get this wording from? This is not the same as the wording in the SRD which I quoted in my post above. The feats you posted are quite different from the SRD versions. For example, your version of manyshot implies that I can fire two arrows as part of the process of casting a fireball. Adding the word "part" makes the feat much different.
Frugal 05-18-07, 02:46 PM	Where did you get this wording from? This is not the same as the wording in the SRD which I quoted in my post above. The feats you posted are quite different from the SRD versions. For example, your version of manyshot implies that I can fire two arrows as part of the process of casting a fireball. Yeah, I have the same question, it's not from the 3.5 or 3.0 SRD (I checked both).
Ryusage 05-18-07, 03:07 PM	Some of the confusion may be because in d20 Modern Core Rulebook, standard actions are referred to as attack actions.
bigdndfan 05-19-07, 01:07 PM	Note for instance, you can't use shot on the run to cast a spell (which can also be a standard action). It's a standard action, it might be an attack, but it's not using the attack action. You obviously can't cast a spell as a part of the attack action, because attack actions are specfically defined as a melee, ranged or unarmed strike. Yep, Riplox is completely wrong here. An attack action is one type of standard action, manyshot is a separate standard action. The 'attack action' is not a seperate standard action, 'attack action' is merely a description. An 'attack action' is a definational term, contrasting it with other types of standard actions. So 'attack action' by definition than means standard action only. That usually mean a single attack; BUT manyshot is a variance from the norm.
AtmaWeapon 05-19-07, 01:14 PM	Manyshot: As part of a Standard Action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30’. You make a single attack roll with a –4 penalty. Sweet, you mean when I drink a potion I get to shoot two arrows at a single opponent for free? Quote the SRD, not "how you remember the rules" or "how it was explained to me incorrectly."
Frugal 05-19-07, 05:49 PM	The 'attack action' is not a seperate standard action, 'attack action' is merely a description. An 'attack action' is a definational term, contrasting it with other types of standard actions. So 'attack action' by definition than means standard action only. That usually mean a single attack; BUT manyshot is a variance from the norm. Creative, but wrong. Notice how attack (melee) and attack (ranged) are on the list of standard actions? It's a specific standard action. Now let's see how shot on the run says when using the attack action with a ranged weapon. Note it's not saying an attack action (using attack as an adjective as you're suggesting to define a set off actions) rather it says the attack action, as in there's only 1 attack action, and by the table it's defined as a standard action. Manyshot is a completely separate standard action as defined by the feat.
bigdndfan 05-20-07, 11:42 AM	Creative, but wrong. Notice how attack (melee) and attack (ranged) are on the list of standard actions? It's a specific standard action. There is nothing at all creative. Like so many pages in the player's guide this is simply explaining the rules, what constitutes a standard action. Ranged, melee or unarmed. Now let's see how shot on the run says when using the attack action with a ranged weapon. Note it's not saying an attack action (using attack as an adjective as you're suggesting to define a set off actions) rather it says the attack action, as in there's only 1 attack action, and by the table it's defined as a standard action. Manyshot is a completely separate standard action as defined by the feat. Where are getting this 'completely different standard actions' buisness from? A standard action is a standard action. Your 'a' and 'the' distinctions are ignoring the nature of manyshot and it's implications on the rules: The whole point of Manyshot is it creates a new subset of the rules on standard action. With the feat you can use a standard action to have more than 1 attack. You can still move before or after. Shot on the Run, another investment of a feat (after already investing in 2 feats), now allows you to move shoot as a standard action and than move again. It takes 4 feats to accomplish this ability, which frankly seems nicely balanced. An attack action or the attack action has no meaningful difference adjective or otherwise.
strenoth 05-20-07, 01:12 PM	they are getting it rom the rules. Drinking a potion is a different Standard Action than Make a single attack. Just as making an attack as part of Shot on the Run is different than using a standard action to puse the many shot feat.
Frugal 05-20-07, 01:49 PM	Where are getting this 'completely different standard actions' buisness from? A standard action is a standard action. Attack is a specific standard action, are you disputing this? Manyshot says it's a standard action. Just because both are standard actions does not mean that Manyshot works with Shot on the Run. Shot on the Run: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Manyshot: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special). Manyshot and the attack action are both standard actions but that doesn't mean that they are the same action. Shot on the Run explicitly only works with 1 action (the attack action), Manyshot is not the attack action, therefore Manyshot doesn't work with Shot on the Run. If it were intended to work that way then Manyshot would use the same wording as Shot on the Run and say, "when using the attack action with a ranged weapon...." rather than, "as a standard action...."
Throg 05-20-07, 02:49 PM	The Attack Action used by Shot on the Run is defined as a standard action. Many Shot is a Standard Action which makes an Attack. The reason the designers worded Shot on the Run as an Attack Action is because it's ment to be used while doing that, attacking. But it still holds true that an Attack Action takes up a Standard Action. Many Shot is worded with Standard Action because it's making more then one attack as an attack action. But it is still using a Standard Action to attack, it makes a roll and deals damage if the attack hits, so it's logical to file it under an Attack Action, just a special Attack Action. Under Actions in Combat, there is no talk about a specific topic of 'Attack Action', nor is there an entry for 'Many Shot', so it's up to the DM to decide how to file Many Shot. I say that it is it's own Attack Action in combat, since it does indeed make an attack.
Frugal 05-20-07, 04:02 PM	The Attack Action used by Shot on the Run is defined as a standard action. Many Shot is a Standard Action which makes an Attack. The reason the designers worded Shot on the Run as an Attack Action is because it's ment to be used while doing that, attacking. But it still holds true that an Attack Action takes up a Standard Action. Many Shot is worded with Standard Action because it's making more then one attack as an attack action. But it is still using a Standard Action to attack, it makes a roll and deals damage if the attack hits, so it's logical to file it under an Attack Action, just a special Attack Action. Under Actions in Combat, there is no talk about a specific topic of 'Attack Action', nor is there an entry for 'Many Shot', so it's up to the DM to decide how to file Many Shot. I say that it is it's own Attack Action in combat, since it does indeed make an attack. No, attack is listed as a specific standard action on p. 141. There is no definition of "standard actions which perform an attack" or group of actions called "attack actions", there is simply the attack action (which is further sub-divided into melee and ranged attacks). A lot of what you're saying is extremely unclear and circular. I think what you're trying to say is that Manyshot makes an attack (it does) and are trying to create a group of standard actions which make attacks and call them attack actions. This goes against the RAW which both defines the attack action and does not provide any such group. Going by that logic I should be able to use shot on the run with spells since many spells are attacks, but they are also covered under a separate action (cast a spell). If casting a spell, a separate standard action which can result in an attack, isn't covered then why should manyshot, a separate standard action which results in an attack, be?
Nom 05-20-07, 06:42 PM	Frugal is correct. "Attack action" (PH pg 139) - specific standard action that grants an attack. "Manyshot" (PH pg 97) - specific standard action that grants a special attack. "Manyshot" is not an "Attack action", or vice versa. Oranges and Lemons both give acidic juice, but that doesn't mean they are interchangeable. Putting in lemons where the recipe asks for oranges usually won't have good results.
Merestil Haye 05-20-07, 07:01 PM	When you use Manyshot, you are taking the action called Use Feat.Use Feat Certain feats let you take special actions in combat. Other feats do not require actions themselves, but they give you a bonus when attempting something you can already do. Some feats are not meant to be used within the framework of combat. The individual feat descriptions tell you what you need to know about them.Manyshot tells you that to use this feat is a standard action, so it is a Use Feat standard action. This is not an attack action. The FAQ addresses this question.Is it possible to use the Shot on the Run feat in conjunction with the Manyshot feat? Some people I know insist that you must use the attack action with Shot on the Run, and they further claim that Manyshot is a standard action and not the attack action. But there isn’t any such thing as an attack action, is there? The text on actions in Chapter 8 of the Player’s Handbook (page 138) describes many kinds of actions (standard actions, move actions, fullround actions, and free actions); it even describes things that are not actions and mentions restricted activity. Nowhere, however, do the rules describe attack actions. So, what’s the correct answer? No, you cannot use Shot on the Run and Manyshot together. It is true that no category of actions is called “attack actions” in the D&D game, but there is an action called attack—it’s the first action described under Standard Actions on page 139 in the Player’s Handbook. It might seem that the folks who say no Manyshot with Shot On the Run are slicing the baloney a little thin, but the letter of the rules is on their side, and so is the intent behind the letter of the rules. The Manyshot feat description could say you fire multiple arrows with the attack action, but it doesn’t. Manyshot is a standard action, not a variant on the attack action (see the feat description on page 97 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, the Shot on the Run feat could allow you to make any kind of ranged attack while moving, but it doesn’t. When using Shot on the Run, you must use the attack action with a ranged weapon (see the feat description on page 100 in the Player’s Handbook). This rules out using spells, most magic items, or special standard actions such as the Manyshot feat when making a Shot on the Run. That’s because casting a spell would require the cast a spell action (described on page 140 of the Player’s Handbook), using any magic item except for some use-activated items would require the activate magic item action (Player’s Handbook, page 142), and, as already noted here, using the Manyshot feat is a standard action. Most magic weapons are use activated and don’t require any action to activate at all (see page 213 in the Dungeon Master’s Guide), so you can use these weapons along with the attack action. For example, you could use a +1 longbow or +1 arrow (or both) with the attack action, and thus you also could use these items with Shot on the Run.
Kouk 05-20-07, 07:17 PM	Damn, you beat me to it.