Post/Author/DateTime	Post
brahmin 05-29-07, 02:13 PM	i'll preface this by saying that i read the faq, and read the hide skill in the phb, but still can't find a confirming answer to my question: i wanted to know if it's possible to hide while attacking with melee attacks (not sniping), but at a -20 to the roll. of particular note, this is the line in the hide skill i'm referring to, quoted directly from the phb: "It's practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running, or charging." attacking doesn't say specifically attacking with a ranged weapon, and charging is done with a melee attack. so, i ask this because to me it seems that if i'm in child of shadow stance, and move at least 10ft. during my turn (granting me the needed concealment), i can melee attack opponents i threaten in melee, and remain hiding (at a -20 penalty). i assume the same could be done if i had the hide in plain sight ability (like the dark creature template from tome of magic). am i right? thanks in advance...
tarkin 05-29-07, 02:28 PM	Concelament is not the only thing neccessary to hide. You also need a hiding spot. I.E. Even with concealment, you can't hide in an empty room. A generous/Power DM could rule that Shadow Stance provides the equivelent of a hiding spot But I would not do that. I might not see you clearly coming at me but I know that SOMETHING is coming at me and I can therefore take full advantage of using my Dex against you.
Tsuul 05-29-07, 03:01 PM	1. Child of Shadow forbids its shadow as valid for HiPS. 2. You could hide in something other then the CoS, then use the CoS to remain hidden as you move using normal hide checks. Comp Adv has a rule for crossing open terrain while hidden, although the opponent is only considered flatfooted, not as being attacked by an invisible foe. So I don't see hiding in CoS as broken, providing you used something else to hide in first. 3. The FAQ does have a point by point breakdown of hiding while attacking, although it is under a spring attack question. Basicly, yes you do need to take -20 to the hide check before you attack (during the movement stage) and are considered invisible for that attack. After the attack you are visible, but further hide checks may negate that (if you have spring attack and can move again after the attack) 4. Most ppl on the boards, I find, ignore this and let the first attack gain invisibility effect for the first attack if you are already hidden. I disagree, and prefer to let the surprise round and the flatfooted condition to set in. To me hiding does not equal invisibility.
brahmin 05-29-07, 03:41 PM	thanks for the answers so far... 1. hide in plain sight as offered by the dark creature template does not specify that i need to be within 10 ft. of a shadow to use it. in fact, the ranger ability to HiPS only requires natural terrain. thus, i'm not using child of shadow to qualify as a shadow to hide in, but someone else for example, my companion shadowdancer could use me. at least, this is the way i'm interpreting it. 2. according to the description of the hide skill, concealment is the only thing required to hide. i'm not sure where you inferred that cover is necessary too and that hiding in an empty room is not possible.
Knightblde 05-29-07, 04:38 PM	Cover is not required to hide. You can hide in a fog. Not that it applies to everything, but I have hidden and had people walk right up to me and not know. (LARPing) I have done this in the woods, and in buildings. Hiding is all about deception, not just placement of barriers. Total cover does not mean you are hidden. If you are on one side of a wall, and I am on the other, we can talk to each other, I konw where you are. If it is a low wall, like a fence, I can cast fireball over the fence and hit you. I know you are there, I do not have to 'guess' where you are. You would not gain bonuses to attack me. All of that said, I would rule there is no way to remain hidden, or to start a hide check while adjacent to a foe. For instance, if you hit me with a ranged arrow it will be VERY hard to tell exactly where it is coming from. The idea that you are standing 5'-10' away (reach) and you hit me, I will know exactly where your weapon came from. Not only that, if I am not flatfooted, I am considered to be blocking (hence my dex bonus, which in this case bonus is anything over -5) and I will just follow your blade to you. Basically ranged makes sense, melee does not. Now spring attack is melee, but you are not adjacent to your foe when you are done, so it is at least plauseable. Happy Gaming
Tsuul 05-29-07, 04:58 PM	HiPS and CoS - CoS explicitly states that you can not use it to HiPS, any version of HiPS. Even your ally can not use it [with his HiPS]. Concealment and Hiding - It comes down to observation. If someone is observing you, concealment isn't enough to hide with. (Hide, bottom line of pg 76)
brahmin 05-29-07, 06:47 PM	ok, so i re-read child of shadow stance and realized that i still need some other terrian feature that would allow me to use the Hide skill. however, i never said that i was using CoS to hide in plain sight. as per the exact wording of child of shadow where it's relevant: "You also gain the standard benefits of concealment, but you cannot use this stance to hide in plain sight; you must still use some other terrain feature that normally allows you to use the Hide skill. The fluttering shadows make it difficult to specifically target you, but your enemies are aware of your position." i fail to see where it 'explicitly' states that an ally with the HiPS class feature of a shadowdancer can't use me in that stance in relevance to his ability. so now my same question is in regard to Hide in Plain Sight and attacking in melee at a -20 to the hide check. the HiPS i am referring to specifically is from the dark creature template which is not specific to limitations to my knowledge. thanks for the posts so far...just debating here. no hard feelings intended.
Knightblde 05-29-07, 08:43 PM	I just went back and re-read hide. It states that if you are successfuly hiding at least 10' away from your opponent, you may make a ranged attack and attempt another hide check with a -20 penalty. It also states that a hide check is part of your move action, or it becomes your move action, if you do not move. Spring Attack splits your move action, but does not become a Full Round Action, therefore, as mentioned before, you can hide. According to the Hide rules, you must be "10 feet from your target." Following these rules I would assume that you can attack with a reach weapon and try another hide check afterwards. I would also say that you cannot at anytime make a hide check while within 5' of an opponent. As a DM, I would rule that you cannot attack with ANY melee weapon and make a hide check against the same opponent in the same round, unless you were using Spring Attack. I feel anything else goes against the flavor of the rules.
brahmin 05-29-07, 09:38 PM	I just went back and re-read hide. It states that if you are successfuly hiding at least 10' away from your opponent, you may make a ranged attack and attempt another hide check with a -20 penalty. It also states that a hide check is part of your move action, or it becomes your move action, if you do not move. Spring Attack splits your move action, but does not become a Full Round Action, therefore, as mentioned before, you can hide. According to the Hide rules, you must be "10 feet from your target." Following these rules I would assume that you can attack with a reach weapon and try another hide check afterwards. i don't think so...the situation you're specifically referring to is the sniping clause: "Sniping: If you've already successfully hidden at least 10 ft. from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." using a reach weapon is a melee attack, not ranged. I would also say that you cannot at anytime make a hide check while within 5' of an opponent. As a DM, I would rule that you cannot attack with ANY melee weapon and make a hide check against the same opponent in the same round, unless you were using Spring Attack. I feel anything else goes against the flavor of the rules. what you're saying just doesn't make any sense to me because the skill specifically says "attacking, running, or charging." charging as a specific example allows you to attack with a melee weapon and make a hide check in the same round, without having to use spring attack. also, i'll politely refrain from commenting on your statement that one cannot hide at anytime when within 5ft. of an opponent; it's quite a bold statement that carries a lot more weight than i think you realize.
Tsuul 05-30-07, 12:58 AM	i fail to see where it 'explicitly' states that an ally with the HiPS class feature of a shadowdancer can't use me in that stance in relevance to his ability.It states that 'you' can not use HiPS. An argument can be made about your shadow dancer partner, but I follow the argument that it disallows them as well. -there are many forms of HiPS --ranger in any natural terrain --shadow dancer in any shadow but his own --various monster types that just need some form of concealment or cover. -CoS disallows you from using any of them and the concealment provided by CoS. --including the uber powerful monsterous kind that only needs concealment. Which leads me to believe something 'else' is going on with the power that is stopping it. Probably balance reasons or the shadows just aren't 'big' enough.
Tsuul 05-30-07, 01:11 AM	I would also say that you cannot at anytime make a hide check while within 5' of an opponent. As a DM, I would rule that you cannot attack with ANY melee weapon and make a hide check against the same opponent in the same round, unless you were using Spring Attack. I feel anything else goes against the flavor of the rules.I understand where you're going with this, but it just isn't necessary to go that far. After you attack the FAQ assumes you are visible; unless you either snipe or make an immediate hide check. Sniping follows it's own rules (which are borked IMO). And making a second hide check for a melee character can really only be done through magic, psionics, or spring attack. Being visible negates a full attack of sneak attack damage caused by a non-surprise round source. That right there stops a crap-ton of cheese.
Nom 05-30-07, 01:52 AM	Tangential but related:DMG pg 295, Invisibility: If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the location of the creature that struck him. The only exception is if the invisible creature has a reach greater than 5 feet. In this case, the struck character knows the general location of the creature but has not pinpointed the exact location.The precedent is that if you strike in melee from adjacent you are automatically located, while if you strike from greater than melee you are not. Note also that it is not only the target who might want to detect a hidden creature running, charging or attacking, but third party observers as well. Just because the target automatically spots an attacker does not imply that others will. Sniping follows it's own rules (which are borked IMO).How so? Let's first assume that the sniping rules are the definitive rules for attacking while hidden, and that we should read the other references to attacking while hidden as forward references to the sniping rules. What other rules conflict with sniping? Answering own question: One issue is that you can't snipe in the surprise round because you don't have a move action with which to re-hide. The sniper could forfeit their surprise round action and then snipe in the first round, though that leads to a chicken-and-egg problem wherein the targets are required to roll for initiative before they encounter their opponents. Aside from this relatively minor conflict, are there other flaws?
Knightblde 05-30-07, 07:24 AM	i don't think so...the situation you're specifically referring to is the sniping clause: "Sniping: If you've already successfully hidden at least 10 ft. from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot." using a reach weapon is a melee attack, not ranged. what you're saying just doesn't make any sense to me because the skill specifically says "attacking, running, or charging." charging as a specific example allows you to attack with a melee weapon and make a hide check in the same round, without having to use spring attack. also, i'll politely refrain from commenting on your statement that one cannot hide at anytime when within 5ft. of an opponent; it's quite a bold statement that carries a lot more weight than i think you realize. Actually, it states while charging, not after charging, meaning you don't end the round in hide, but you are hidden when you make the charge attack. I still say one may not make a hide check within 5' of an opponent. This does not mean that one cannot be hidden within 5' of an opponent. For example, if you hide and I move up to you, you are still hidden. If I hide and move up to you, I am still hidden, with the appropiate checks, of course. I did not give a disclaimer before, but Magic, special feats, total concealment, total cover and some misc. other factors may change the above rule.
brahmin 05-30-07, 10:28 AM	ok, so i think i found the answer to my question (in an obvious place mind you) that makes it pretty clear to me that i was a little confused about how the hide skill and hide in plain sight works. apparently, i completely missed that while it allows you to hide while being observed, you are still required to have some degree of cover or concealment in order to hide in the first place. one with hide in plain sight could potentially shift behind an ally after attacking an opponent in melee, using them as cover to hide behind them. or, if the room was filled with fog or shadow, granting concealment, then one could remake the hide check after attacking in melee, while having just stepped back 5ft. regardless of these two particular examples, it is clearly possible to re-hide (at a -20 penalty) if one has the hide in plain sight ability, as long as some degree of cover or concealment exists. however, once that cover or concealment is gone, you just become visible again. as quoted directly from D&D FAQ v.3.5 38 Update Version: 05/18/07: Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is, invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class features? Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her (even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a character to make a move action to hide immediately after making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed. As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding place within the plants, having never left the area of concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide check. The third part of your question changes the situation entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re incredibly effective. A character with the hide in plain sight class feature (described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver). The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be hidden when she delivers the attack. The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) allows the character to make a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden, move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make a Hide check to hide after the attack. Put all three of these elements together—such as in the hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get: 1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment). 2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be considered hiding when he attacks). 3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or concealment while in natural terrain). 4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!” so, new question: how does one get the camouflage ability in item or feat form? >_<
Tsuul 05-30-07, 08:10 PM	Spoiler blocks to save space. Sniping follows it's own rules (which are borked IMO).How so? Let's first assume that the sniping rules are the definitive rules for attacking while hidden, and that we should read the other references to attacking while hidden as forward references to the sniping rules. What other rules conflict with sniping?Assuming the sniping rules are the definitive rules for attacking while hidden, then I would have to reverse my statement to say "Melee attacks while hidden follow its own rules (which are borked)." :D Again with that assumption, melee attacks should follow the precedent set out by sniping. That being 1) start off hidden (no check this round), 2) attack, 3) make a hide check at -20 penalty as a move action. Then the FAQ [entry posted by brahmin above] would get thrown out of the window. Melee attacks while hidden would also inherit the chicken/egg impossibility of no surprise round for a melee ambush. Having the PCs roll initiative to skip the surprise round defeats the whole purpose of the surprise mechanic; that's not an option I am willing to explore. /end assumption The sniping rules also imply and propagate the belief that any attack from a made simply from a hidden position (no penalty on a hide check) equals an invisible attack, again something the FAQ disagrees with on melee attacks. Sniping splits the penalty to after the attack. Couldn't a character with HiPS skip the move action to re-hide since it would be more preferable to be able to move and hide with a normal check instead of using up the whole move action? With HiPS, a character doesn't care if he gets seen during the attack. Is a person who sniped briefly visible during the attack? The word 're-hide' implies not being hidden at some point. Being visible breaks one of the tennents of being able to hide, "You must not be observed". I amend my statement that the sniping rules are borked and now state that the hide rules are borked, as a whole. With no examples of a melee hidden attack to be found in the PHB, readers are forced to look to other sources for how they are done or follow the sniping rules as a 'how to' for melee attacks. I would have liked to see sniping mirror how hiding is done in the FAQ. With a move action before the attack (at -20) to prepare the hider for the attack. I would like it to be made clear that the sniper is visible after the snipe, just like with melee. But introduce a Spring Attack clone feat for archers to let them be able to expertly hide after the attack in the same way spring attack merges with hiding. Perhaps make it a tactical feat if it is too weak as a feat all on it's own. Actually, it states while charging, not after charging, meaning you don't end the round in hide, but you are hidden when you make the charge attack.Yup, in the same way that a hidden attacker (who takes -20 to attack while hidden) is visible after the attack. I still say one may not make a hide check within 5' of an opponent.It would be a house rule. But a little used one. Usually one can not hide in front of someone due to observation anyway. Hiding is usually part of movement, a hider that doesnt take the opportunity to move at the same time deserves to get hit (with the miss chance of course). one with hide in plain sight could potentially shift behind an allyPeople(soft cover) can't be used to hide. What version of HiPS? The shadowdancer version is more powerful then the ranger version. As long as a shadow dancer is within 10' of shadow he can hide without cover/concealment. The ranger gets concealment[edit: er... not concealment, um camouflage, yea camouflage:)] a few levels before he gets HiPS, so the ranger is set there as well (in natural terrain that is). regardless of these two particular examples, it is clearly possible to re-hide (at a -20 penalty) if one has the hide in plain sight ability, as long as some degree of cover or concealment exists.If you are sniping you take the -20 penalty to hide during the move action after you attack, you would only need HiPS if you were 1) a shadowdancer attacking from an open area but within 10' of shadow, or 2) a ranger attacking from an open area in natural terrain. The move action after a snipe is an anomaly, it takes a whole move action to re-hide (so you can't move, which isn't normal). And it apparently negates the "must not be observed" part of hiding (which is probably why it takes a full move action). HiPS is not needed to snipe, just a great hide skill.
brahmin 05-30-07, 08:27 PM	[sblock=brahmin]People(soft cover) can't be used to hide. ah, ok, i just read that in the phb now...thanks. What version of HiPS? The shadowdancer version is more powerful then the ranger version. As long as a shadow dancer is within 10' of shadow he can hide without cover/concealment. The ranger gets concealment a few levels before he gets HiPS, so the ranger is set there as well (in natural terrain that is). ah, ok, i also re-read that the shadowdancer gets now: "A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow. i missed the part that the SD doesn't need anything to hide behind. thanks again...